On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Elliot Page ON: How to Turn Self-Hate Into Self-Love & Navigating Societal Gender Norms

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Can self-hate be turned into self-love, and if so, where does this transformation start?  How can we replace self-criticism with affirmations and begin prioritizing self-care? Today, I have something truly special to share with you on the On Purpose podcast. We're about to dive deep into the incredible journey of Elliot Page, whose story is not just a memoir but a testament to the power of self-discovery and authenticity.  Elliot Page is an Academy Award-nominated actor, director, producer, writer, and a New York Times bestselling author known for his indelible on-screen presence in both tentpole and art house films. Today we are talking about his memoir Pageboy which became an instant bestseller.  Starting with a detailed exploration of life-changing memories, we journey alongside Elliot through a life-long experience that's beautifully reflected in this memoir. It's a story of resilience and growth, a reminder that we all have the capacity to overcome challenges and find our true selves. Elliot's story sheds light on the importance of not letting societal conditioning dictate who we are. We'll explore how being true to yourself can lead to living the life you've always wanted. From struggles to self-discovery, we will discover the impact of authenticity and self-acceptance and how these can help anyone take pivots at the most crucial moments.  And amidst it all, we'll touch on topics like community support, transitioning resources, and how parents can empower their children to express themselves. In this interview, you’ll learn: How to let go of self hate How to appreciate your authenticity How to develop self love How to find your own voice The importance of community support The challenges when transitioning How to deal with unsupportive people This episode is not just about one person's journey; it's about the universal themes of self-love, acceptance, and the incredible strength of the human spirit.  With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:58 Elliot's Memory Exploration  03:46 Pageboy: A Memoir 06:16 Breaking The Mold Of Conditioned Reactions  07:41 Living Your Dream Life 09:28 Fighting to Function In Your Own Pace 10:26 Let People Be Themselves 13:08 How Transition Shapes Your Profession and Life 15:15 The Positives of Being Grounded And Present 18:20 The Significance of Community Support 20:16 Resources for Transitioning Individuals 23:19 How Parents Can Aid In Self-Expression  25:13 Misconceptions on Youth and Trans Health 28:43 Trans Men On Conversations About Masculinity 32:11 Empathetic Conversations With Other Trans People 38:09 Lessening the Burden of Feeling Alone 42:51 Connecting Through Stories 44:29 Balancing Alone Time And Forming Relationships 47:30 Living A Life With Limited Resources 51:40 Biographies And Intriguing Lives 53:04 Having A Moment Of Self Love 56:14 Elliot Page on Final Five   Episode Resources: Elliot Page | Twitter Elliot Page | Instagram Elliot Page | Facebook Pageboy: A Memoir  Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dressing, Bollassing, oh French dressing. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was good. I'm AJ Jacobs and my current obsession is puzzles. And that has given birth to my new podcast, The Puzzler. Something about Mary Poppins?

Exactly. This is fun. You can get your daily puzzle nuggets delivered straight to your ears. Listen to The Puzzler every day on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Womor Madrama, executive producer of the new podcast, Day of My A Walita First. Each week, the incredible Viko Ortiz and fabulous A Walita Lilliano Montenegro will play

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Visitas. To be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like on set. And in my trailer, when I'm alone, wanting to tear my skin off. So the future, I think I couldn't see it because I didn't know how much longer I'd last, feeling that way in my day to day life.

Everyone's sort of go to was, your dreams coming true, your dreams coming true, your dreams coming true. Kate Winslet said to me, don't let them change you. happier, healthier and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

The best selling author in the post. The number one health and wellness podcast. I'm on purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm so excited because I get to sit down with Elliott Page. Elliott Page is an Academy Award nominated actor, director, producer, writer, and a New York Times bestselling author known for his indelible on-screen presence in both Tentpole and Arthouse films. Elliott uses his global platform to shed light on important social and LGBTQ plus issues.

Up next, Elliot will star in close to you, which will have its world premiere at the 2023 Toronto International Film Festival. Elliot's critically acclaimed debut book, a memoir entitled Page Boy, was published around the world in June 2023. The book became an instant bestseller, number one atop the New York Times bestseller list and receiving widespread positive reviews. With Elliott's production company,

Pageboy Productions, Elliot develops and produces entertaining, original and socially responsible stories. Elliot, welcome to On Purpose. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for making the time for being here. I know you're in LA only for a few days and I'm grateful that I get to steal some of that time. Thank you for having me here. Yeah, we're today we're talking about your

incredible new memoir for anyone who hasn't already read this book. I highly recommend that you go and grab it. We're going to put the link in the caption so that you can order it right now. Please make sure that you go and grab a copy if you're enjoying this conversation. Earlier, when I was reading through the book, I was truly just, first of all, I just felt very grateful that someone's letting us in on such an intimate part of their life and doing it in such a graceful and thoughtful way. And even the structure of the book too, I was just like, oh, this is like easing me in in a way that I wouldn't expect to from a memoir usually. And you chose this non-linear approach consciously and intensely? Could you explain why you felt that that was the right way to share your story? Yeah, I mean, for me, the non-linearity of it is a reflection on

some level of speaking for myself, the trans and queer experience and how that journey weaves, how we get close to our truth, potentially pull back, maybe know ourselves very, very deeply before we've been inundated with, you know, this society and its expectations that are often toxic and limiting. And, you know, so for me in regards to exploration of memory and of those moments of my life where I did feel close and then would pull back potentially because I was frightened, overwhelmed, or what have you. So I guess also personally I enjoy when books are non-linear, you know, where in different themes and topics and history and emotion and what have you can all sort of collide. So that's just inherently, I guess, exciting to me. And also, yeah, I think it reflects this sort of queer trans journey and some of them. I love the phrase you just used the exploration of memory.

I don't know, my mind just latched on to it. And I thought, wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it. I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing. It so often fails us. It's so often skewed. What was it like for you going down memory lane? And when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover or explore about memory when you're putting together a memoir? I feel like there must be something in there. For me, so many of the stories or the moments that I chose are ones that have just always

been vibrating right under the surface. And found the act of writing it in many ways was quite organic. It was sort of, I sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship I could potentially sort of speak to many things during that time, or a friendship, or an incident, or what have you, and then sort of mulled around that. And for me, so much of what came up was the stuff that was kind of always running around my brain. So some of my earliest memories when I was, you know, in preschool, to obviously then all over the place throughout. So I think a lot of the instances and feelings were quite sort of readily available and

tangible. For me, the experience was, I don't know if this comes from like acting or having so much of my life being a part of telling stories where it was as if I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment and it was as if I was just describing this movie I was watching or something. Do you find that I'm always fascinated by this, especially with people who are in filmmaking. Do you find that when you're looking at a memory, you're seeing yourself move, or are you kind of the person doing the moving? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I think probably both combination of the two, probably also a conscious removal on some level to be able to

you know, give a texture and and and and description that hopefully will you know, pull the reader into it. Absolutely. I always find that all my memories, which it took me a long time to realize this, all my memories that are based on pictures are ones where I'm seeing myself as opposed to memories that I actually have from my mind. If that makes sense, whenever I see a picture of me in my family, then I'm like, oh, actually, I don't have a memory of that. I just have a picture that sparks something. For you, was there a memory that was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, oh, I didn't, I forgot that happened or I maybe didn't pay enough attention

to that when it happened. Was there anything that came up that way or was it more just things that were already there? I wouldn't say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emerged out of nowhere that was a surprise, but I think on some level, and this made, the experience of writing it, of course, intense in moments, but ultimately really healing and cathartic. I think there was a lot of memories that I had just so swept under the rug, where you become so conditioned to let

certain things go, certain behavior coming at you go, that even sitting here right now, I can kind of feel it in my body to register how much certain things really did affect me and my life and my physical well-being and my emotional well-being and what have you. So it was almost more like there was like a therapeutic element to it on some level, but sitting with the reality of some things that I think was actually really important. Yeah, well thank you for doing it here and here in both places because I can only imagine how much courage it takes to do that. So thank you for even experiencing, even now as you were saying, you can feel it in your body and I can see that it's, I can only imagine how much courage that takes.

So thank you, thank you for going there for us. How does it feel to finally be living the way you've always wanted to and being perceived in the way you've always perceived yourself? It's like getting to feel a way that I never thought was possible. Like when I would just think about my future and how I was going to feel and I had a very difficult time seeing it. Even this morning I saw a friend and I don't see him as much because he lives here and he's just like, this like lightness in you.

He's just like, oh my gosh, it's such an amazing thing to see. And this is someone who's been in my life since I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at the age of about 20, like consistently, is when we first met initially. So it's, yeah, it's getting to exist in a way that I never thought possible. It doesn't mean I'm not human who doesn't have difficult days or, you know, sparks of anxiety naturally. But it's a complete game changer just getting to feel.

Being able to do this, this would have been impossible before. Impossible. I could have never simply the action of sitting down for the length that it takes to have space in my mind, freed from everything else that was occupying it, to feel the sort of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired and waking up and being able to actually sit down with myself and do something like this, impossible before, impossible. What would your thoughts about the future have been then that you think made it feel so impossible?

As you said, you used to think about the future and it could never have felt as good as it does today, despite there being natural human challenges, obviously. But yeah, what would that picture of the future would have been? I think the way the way to explain it is almost like, it's almost as if your days, I just do feel like for very significant periods of my life, I struggled to function on a pretty basic level.

You know, it was hard for me to just literally sit down. It was hard for me to be productive. It was hard for me to be, you know, present at all. And so the future, I think I couldn't see it because I didn't know how much longer I'd last feeling that way in my day-to-day life. How does it feel now reconnecting with acting, being who you've always been, and being perceived in that way? Like what is acting like now? Has your relation with acting changed? Is it better? Is it more? So much better.

Yeah. I mean, literally everything in my life is better now because of how I get to feel and feeling embodied and present and, you know, all these things really for the first time. Because this is the other thing I have people say to me or I'd say to myself, like, like, you're an actor, just put on the clothes, flip the switch, play the game, you know, whatever. But I wasn't starting from this foundational place of myself. And as much as acting is about inhabiting another personality or whatever, manned manifestations of a character, what have you, you're always bringing yourself to a role, right?

Like, it's so much about connecting to a character, to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma, to whatever, to the joy, to what have you, and developing your connection with that, and then molding something on that. So I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable and I feel like I see that in work, like inability to sort of almost think of the word loose. And now there's this looseness, there's this ability to just exist every day on set, be in my body and that's the starting point. I'm not having to like fight through something to get to the starting point. You know, I know people approach the work

differently, but to me it's about being as present and open as absolutely possible with all the information you've gathered about how you want to play this role or approach it. So it's allowing for that. And it's feeling like how acting felt in the moments when I was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat, I could almost handle. You know, I could handle the, you know, there'd still be some discomfort, but it was at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again, sounds counterintuitive to acting, but to me, the presence of it is what makes it possible and the most powerful. Yeah, it's hard to, even though something's an art and then there's humans, it's hard to separate the two. Like, it's hard to just say, oh, that's an art. You turn it on like an off like a switch and then there's your life.

And I think we all know that regardless of our disposition or setup, they are the two intertwined anyway. Absolutely. And so what parts of the art do you feel have drastically improved for you, like that you just feel more connected to, or as you said, I love the words open and present to you. I mean, to be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like on set. And in my trailer, when I'm alone, and wanting to tear my skin off, I don't know, whatever the sort of physical ways that I would feel. And I can remember, I'd call my manager on films and just be like, I'm not okay. Like, I can't necessarily have the words or having them, but not

like I, and not necessarily having the words or having them, but not, not being able to fully follow through with the thought, I guess. So so much of is it actually is like, to be honest, if someone told me, oh, you come out as trans and you'll never work as an actor again, I would have been like, cool. Like, all right, I'd way rather with my life and be myself and engage with the world as myself and feel embodied and not feel like I don't know how to get through the day. Not interested. So for me, I'm mostly like, okay, cool that the, you know, if I keep, if I do get cast, if I do get cast. The fallout does seem to be this very positive aspect of feeling so much more grounded and present that I think, well, it's going to make performances better. Yeah.

And if it doesn't, I don't really care. Yeah. That's not what life's about for me. Yeah. I've had been in movies that have done well and movies that have not done well And you're still where you are and living your life and Like I'm good. Yeah, I love that. I mean that is I loved you said that's what life's about and and I think it's so true like for all of us in our own ways wanting to feel

true, like, for all of us in our own ways wanting to feel that we can truly be who we are and be seen for who we are and be accepted for who we are is kind of what all of us on our journey are pursuing and seeking. And when you say, and it sounds like to me, and I'm trying to deeply understand this as well, it's like, when you say I, in the book, you talk about how you're like, I knew when I was four years old. And it's like that knowingness. And then you use the language of like you know tearing off your own skin like that idea to me feels like when there's such a strong knowingness inside knowing is different to feeling. And and it sounds like when I was reading I was like there was just knowingness. And I was intrigued is to is that the right language. do you agree with that?

And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling? Because I think knowing is so much more of this visceral, deep, grounded, rooting feeling. Yeah, I mean, I suppose they're probably both obviously interrelated to a degree and connect. I mean, I think at those, which are some of my earliest memories, like these moments that were just always like right under the surface, was so much of how I felt at that age

and who I knew myself to be and how perplexed I was at how the world was seeing me. And then when I was about 10, pushing my mother to the degree that I was really actually getting to present how I wanted and remembering just how good that felt and the solidness and this, this way I could exist in the world without the similar feelings that I had as a full-blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off that I was feeling at really young ages and not obviously having the words for. But in some ways, you're like, no, wait, I did have the words for them. I was going, this is who I am and want to be. And these are the things

that I want to wear and how I want to look and present. And you had people going, you know, no, I'm sorry, you know. So in some ways, you're like, wait, no, I did have the words. And also, I guess I did two degree in my 20s and the same thing, people were going, no, you can't do that. You have to do this if you want a future in this industry, for example, or you have to be closeted or what have you. So I think for me, the knowing and the feeling relate, the knowing and feeling good about the knowing is when you feel euphoria, is when you feel that sense of connection, when that's incongruence with what you've been labeled as and defined as and how you're getting treated versus who you know you are. Then when that's heightened and you're losing the sense of the knowing, that's when all these

awful feelings come up and the manifestation and the consequences that are self-harm, obviously mental health struggles and what have you, feelings of hopelessness. So I suppose they entwine in that way. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm curious as to friends that you've had in the community who may is to friends that you've had in the community who may have been more limited by those statements or that pushback or that judgment. How have you been able to talk to others in the community? What if those conversations look like right I'd say community is maybe the biggest reason why I'm even here and able to exist and a lot of those conversations and it goes both ways in the conversations is someone speaking to something that might be a

thought or a feeling that you thought you were alone with because we obviously don't, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of representation. And when you are able to connect with someone that's having these similar experiences that have made you feel very alone, that have filled you with shame potentially or put you into a sense of hiding is not that you want anyone else to be suffering by any means, but when you're able to speak to someone else who's also maybe had the similar feelings when they were for who's maybe had similar manifestations of their pain, I suppose. You feel less alone. You are then in a position where I can offer support and support has been offered to me from so many trans people that I'm close to. And people I've never met, who's books I've read,

who's, you know, who've deeply inspired me. So yeah, yeah. Listen to comeback stories. I'm Darren Waller. You may know me best as a tie-in for the New York Giants. You may also know me for my story of overcoming addiction and alcoholism. You may have heard a few of my tracks as an artist or producer. You may have seen the work that I've done through my foundation. And you may know my friend and co-host Donnie Starkens as well. He's a mindfulness teacher, a yoga instructor, a life coach, a man fully invested in seeing people reach their fullest potential.

And we've come to form this platform of comeback stories to really highlight not only our own adversity, but adversity in the lives of well-known guests with amazing stories. Catch us every week on Comeback Stories on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something about Mary Poppins? Something about Mary Poppins.

Exactly. Oh, man. This is fun. I'm AJ Jacobs and I am an author and a journalist and I tend to get obsessed with stuff. And my current obsession is Puzzles. And that has given birth to my new podcast, The Puzzler Dressing. Dressing. Oh, French dressing.

Exactly. That's good. That's good. We are living in the golden age of puzzles, and now you can get your daily puzzle nuggets delivered straight to your ears for 10 minutes or less. Every day on the puzzler, short and sweet. I thought to myself, I bet I know what this is, and now I definitely know what this is. This is so weird.

This is fun. Let's try this is. This is so weird. This is fun. Let's try this one. Listen to the puzzler every day on the IHART radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's awful, and I should have seen it coming. All on my hand, this is Womorva Durama, executive producer of the new podcast, name my Abuelita first. Part of IHART Radio's Michael Tudor podcast network.

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across that you think you'd recommend to people to connect with, that you felt were powerful for you while you were obviously now that your books are going to play the same role for so many others. Gosh, I mean, so many. And then some people I know, some I don't. And also a couple books I've read recently actually, Travis Allibans, a book that came out in the UK, comes out here, I think, next month called None of the above is just astounding. I don't know if you're familiar with them. No, no, no, no, no, yeah. Brilliant. Also a British book called Transman walks into a gay bar by Harry Nicholas, the stunning book. Anyway, I just sort of like just read those. Oh, and I just read a collection of,

I don't know if you're familiar with Lou Sullivan. They've published like massive amount of his diaries, which I just read and that was, I'm actually quite an interesting read because at first, you're reading someone's diary, like it is very, I did this, then I met this person and then you really get into the flow of it. And it's very, you know, it's diary, like it is very, I did this, then I met this person and then you really get into the flow of it. And it's very, you know, it's beautiful, it's emotional and intense and Janet Mox books, which are stunning.

Those, I read probably around the age of 30 Thomas Page McBeese book amateur and Manel Eye of, um, I'm blanking. and Man alive. Blinking. No, I mean, you've given us a great list. That's it. That's a phenomenal list of integrate, even get started with. And it's incredible to hear how much, you know, I mean, you were just reeling off of book names there,

but it's like so much a deep study of, you know, did you ever keep a diary during this time or a journal or anything at all over your time or was there something anything at all over your time? Or was there something that was all happening in your mind ultimately? Mind for the most part, there were little I did go, like, hunting and for any kind of old writing from whatever age. And I found some things as a teen, late teens, and like little things from in my 20s and did kind of regret not writing more because a lot of those were really helpful. And fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back so no not so much but yeah but you'd recommend it as a yes as a practice and I keep meaning to do it, my thought. And even though, maybe I like, I wrote a book, the book tour was a lot, I'm like, I'm just taking a moment

and then all. I think that's fair. Get back into the writing flow. I think that's completely fair. Books and book tours, it's almost like you finish writing a book and you think the job's done, and then it's like just started. And it's, yeah, it's completely, completely understand that you, you were saying that, you know, and I liked how you were thinking that through you.

I was like, I actually did have the liked how you were thinking that through you. I actually did have the right words at four and then at 10. And I wonder how many young people are going to have the same conversation with their parents in the next few years. I think, you know, we're going to have more parents hearing the words that you used to from their children. What do you think would be a healthy response from parents that you think would be helpful or that you would encourage so that they could be able to better stay connected to their children as they're going on their own journey?

I think you really need to just listen to your children and not be dismissive of what they're expressing, shame them or embarrass them for what they're expressing, and allow a child the space to explore. I mean, even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself, the things I didn't turnalize. And I remember this moment, which when people say things, like what do you say to young people who might be struggling or people are struggling is I went from oh, am I the oh, I don't know all to Well, wait, why does this energy need to be this way? Why can't I just be going huh?

Yeah, maybe I am going, huh, hmm, yeah, maybe I am. Maybe I'll go find someone and finally sit down and really commit to speaking about this and how I'm feeling and my relationship with my gender and my body because I'm not okay. And why can't I put my shoulders back and speak to this and explore this and I think in so many ways, it's just about creating that space, that gentleness and listening and educating yourself. There is a lack of information and there is a tremendous amount of lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our healthcare, particularly about healthcare for youth.

So also try and educate yourself from actual sources, from lived experience and and also care that's supported by every major medical institution in the United States. Could you explain, and if this is your field of knowledge, could you expand on some of those lies or some of that misinformation that's out there, especially to do with healthcare? Yeah. Because I think that would be really useful, if you feel comfortable to do. I mean, I can do my best, I guess, with yeah, but I mean, the idea that children's bodies are being mutilated flat out by, just literally not true. The idea that puberty blockers are experimental, you know, they've been used for decades

for children who have a percocious puberty. And this care is sort of framed as something that's like very easily accessible and immediate, not the case at all. Most trans people have an incredibly difficult time accessing care. It's not how it's being framed in terms of this, as if it's getting like pushed.

It's like the opposite. And this is like a very thorough, patient process that deeply involves the parents, of course. And so much of the care for children or young kids is just about supporting them, supporting a social transition potentially, you know, name change, pronoun change, how they might want to dress, cut their hair, whatever, you know, very, you know, basic aspects of, you know, how we exist an hour alive. And then, you know, the moment a child starts to show any sort of characteristic of puberty, that's when the conversation weighed out, conversation with all the

information everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop. And then, if that's the choice, or continue potentially to hormones, and then when we're talking about any kind of surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age of typically 18, in some cases, 16. But so, I guess that's like the bulk of what I see is this idea that children are getting like mutilated or brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it. It's the opposite, actually, you know, trans and gender nonconforming people are bully, deal with disproportionate violence. deal with disproportionate violence. So so much of that is just just literally not true. Right. Thank you for sharing that. It's useful because yeah, I think that the challenges with with all of this is like you said, there's so much information that it's hard for all of this is like you said, there's so much information that it's hard for, I think misinformation and information that it's hard for people to kind of hear about things

effectively. And we hope that these conversations like this can lead to people doing their own research, finding the right sources so that they can actually be able to make sense of, you know, something that they may not understand as well as opposed to having an assumption based on broad generalized headlines or. Of course, just hearing people that have no, I'm always like, oh, I didn't know you were a medical professional. You're not talking about any other sort of medical care in this way when it's supported by every major medical institution in the United States.

Yeah. What do you think trans men can add to the conversation of masculinity or add to their thoughts and belief system or masculinity? I'd love to hear your perspectives on that. I think we can add something. I believe it too. And the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas Page McBee is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what it means to be a man, the man he wants to be, what have you, beautiful book, you'd love it. I mean, I've had a lived experience of being perceived as not a man, of course. And also the sort of brief experience of like entering that space and like getting sort of treated in a different way or in many ways I feel so much for cis men being brought

up and the limits put on them emotionally encouraged to be, you know, not sensitive. That vulnerability is weakness on some level or what have you just ingrained misogyny. Obviously we live in a very misogynistic society, queer, phobic society, transphobic society, and having certain experiences I've had in my life with men has definitely highlighted certain things that I personally wouldn't want to be in. I suppose trans men trans mask people can come to the table with those experiences and potentially offer something different or an insight that's different. I hope for cis men in so many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing

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self-expression, to, you know, I've always found personally because I was raised by my mom growing up and witnessed her struggle and her stress and her pain and her challenge and just her resilience. And then also with a younger sister, it was, I found that very useful because I grew up in an environment that was highly emotive and highly supportive of being emotive and expressing emotion. And I often think about if I didn't have that experience, I don't know where else I would have got that from in my life.

And that's interesting to think about. Like how I could have grown up and never had that compass, it would never even have come across me. Where else would I have learned that? I wouldn't have definitely wouldn't have learned it at school. Definitely wouldn't have learned it at college. And then in the world of work, I definitely would have learned it either. So you could literally spend your whole life and never access some of these subtle, nuanced expressions, which are so key. Are there any specific interactions you've had or

moments you've had where this kind of experience has been heightened or some of the things you mentioned that you felt like, oh wow, this was this was really powerful for someone or something. I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations with more empathy because I've had not great experiences with men and It's easy to lose of the empathy sometimes, you know, I think it's allowed me to have conversations with men about how they Have not felt permitted to express themselves or have close relationships with other men or a sort of a certain age where a moding or self expression in that way is not seen as a positive and if anything aggression is more celebrated or encouraged,

which is damaging to the person themselves and obviously the world. In my life, I've noticed things that are just more subtle, but like men who used to have hadn't seen them for a while, we used to hug and then now, where there's no hug and I'm just like, you know, these little things, I'm like, wow, that's fascinating.

You know, even myself, these little things, I'm like, wow, that's fascinating, you know? You know, even myself at the very beginning, like, going, having these like really brief moments, like, oh, should I talk with my hands less? Like, what, Elliot, did that thought actually just enter your brain? No, be exactly who you are, but it highlighted something that even just in that tiny amount of time, something

in me was starting to judge myself about how I was going to be as the man that I am. I'm going to grow up to be. And it's, you know, it's sort of embarrassing to admit, but feeling those sort of, yeah, pressures or misguided thoughts. But yeah, I think it's allowed me to have quite meaningful conversations with male friends that we hadn't really had before. Yeah, and they probably haven't had before. Yeah, and I think, and then I will say one thing, I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone, and as someone who's literally jokes on me

going through puberty again, I will say, like, I'm not more angry, and the least angry I've ever been, it doesn't like, I think, you know, we're not taking into account the degree of socialization and toxic limitations. That encouraged a lot of the behavior and issues we see with toxic masculinity. Another challenge that you've raised in the book, you said research has shown that transgender and gender non-conforming youth are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder.

That obviously creates its own complexity. What is the research point to us, the reason behind that and how people can find support around that, especially with that complication? Well, gosh, I mean, I'm not a, obviously, like, a professional that could give some exact... Yeah, what have you come across, is my question. I mean, for my experience, it's, you know, a profound discomfort in the body of wanting to have a sense of control for me in some ways, I think, to being smaller about, I looked more boyish when I was the, you know, so this sort of way of like literally controlling the body and also just the sort of, you know, sort of psychically, mentally, so much of your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that, I think, it's allowing you to not focus on other things, to think about other things,

to contemplate other things. You talk about in the book about how your thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time. And I guess that now that you're able to not have to contemplate those same thoughts, almost like what we were talking about at the beginning, about the thoughts about the future and the thoughts about it being impossible, what now that you have that headspace back, or hopefully more of it back, what would that now be? What are you directing that towards? What opportunities that opening, or where are you able to spend that thought power? Rotable.

Yeah. I wrote a book. I mean, I make, you know, for fun, like music with a friend. It's actually hard to describe when it's literally now every aspect in every moment of my life, you know, like when people go, oh, what was your last incident of like gender euphoria? I'm like, oh, this morning when I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able to sit and have my coffee, doing things in the past that like I didn't joy, but a part of me wasn't there. So it could just be going to meet some friends in the park.

And I'm really able to just be in the park with them. I'm not thinking about, oh, are they gonna, did I eat? Will you only eat this much time ago? And oh, God, I'm so uncomfortable and talking down my shirt and looking and just kinda wanting to get that always. Like always wanting to just,

the sense of always wanting to flee. And now sometimes, of course, there's moments where I'm like, I'd really love to just be home reading a book right now. I mean, like, I'm not like, it's not like I'm like, Johnny, social, all of a sudden, but going from having like a very difficult time being social and feeling connected or now getting to feel like immersed in life versus struggling to know how to live it. Well, that definitely registers hearing that definitely hits.

Thank you for explaining that. When you went on the book tour and you're obviously, as you just said, you wrote the book, what's been the responses that have really warmed your heart or that have really connected to you in a way that are going to stay with you for a long, long time, either on tour or, I'm sure you've had so many people write to you because of the book and write to your team and everyone else. What are some of those that you could tell us now, especially now that the book's been out for a while, guessing it's only getting more and more. Yeah, I think the most moving and beautiful responses are people kind of expressing it.

All ages, how me sharing my story has helped them, you know, helped them, you know, feel less alone, helped them talk to their parents in a new way, helped them feel carry less shame, read a letter from someone who was, they might have been, you know, 50 and they'd read the book and then like, you know, finally I decided, yes, I'm going on testosterone and just saying like how much that decision had changed their life. And I fully was like crying when I read this, I was just so, um, well, thankful that they'd want to, you know, share that with me. And also to know that anything you could have done or expressed would, would help someone feel less alone, because I know how alone you can feel. I know how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this self-hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through

your body. And what it means when you do get those moments of clarity and feel connection, I've, as I've said, I've had that with books I've read or, you know, friendships and what communities offered me. So those are beautiful moments. And then even a friend of mine, who's transmask, and they, their mom read the book in like a couple days and they said, I'm now having conversations with my mom that I didn't think were possible before. It's like, I mean, at the end of the day,

like, that's the point. I mean, that's really the point. It's like, why else am I like spilling my guts in this thing? Like, sometimes I'd be like leading up to it coming out. I'm like, oh my God, why'd you write about that? And then when you have those moments that you know, it could be helping someone, it's just like, to me, that's

the point. Did you encounter anyone that initially may have been, you know, in their own way initially critical or judgmental and then was able to kind of even just sit with you and hear from you or, and was able to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey. Did you come across any of that or hear about any of those types of stories from anyone? I mean I suppose people I don't know if you know the individual went on like some huge art or change of thought but that it enabled them to think about and understand But that it enabled them to think about and understand

the experience a bit more. And actually in so many ways that I think so special is how much they also related to it, despite having a very different experience, not being trans. And how did they relate to it? What was they related it being, Cicin Gay. And so obviously there's going to be like overlap there,

but had, maybe they did have their certain feelings about trans people or thoughts, and the book really did help, you know, their mind changed to a degree. I'm so glad that I mean, there's so many books that you mentioned today that I want to read, and I know, you know, our community is hopefully going to read page boys well after this, but it's fascinating to me just how we all became trained in different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to experiences that you would hope we would have become more curious to learn about and more open to learn about. And it's fascinating to me as a society how we've become more and more closed- learn about. And it's fascinating to me as a society, how we've become more and more close-minded about so many issues, as opposed to being broad-minded

when it obviously makes sense to be open-minded about things, makes us a healthier, happier, more growth-focused human. And for me, I've always talked about how, I think the best thing that happened to me is I met people who were very different to society when I was young. And when I said different, I mean, for me, it was meeting spiritual monks. Like, that was my personal journey.

And so meeting a monk at 18 years old was so random to my life's journey that it was great because it presented a whole new way of thinking and ideology that I would never have ever thought could even be possible and it became such a big part of my life. And I just, I'm hoping that stories like yours and stories like this will continue to help people open up their minds to recognize how much there is in common that we have and how much there is in common experience that we can learn from and be guided by even if it's not the same experience. Would that be an accurate mission statement to a part of the mission statement? Absolutely, ideally. Yeah. And I mean, I, you know, like memoir in particular, I read a lot of in love and so much of it are, you know, stories that are very different than mine and people with different experiences and identity and what

have you that have deeply touched me and moved me and opened my mind and allowed me to grow and expand. And we're all learning all the time. Yeah. And it's beautiful to have the space or, you know, to help create the space on any level that allows people to grow and expand in that way. Yeah. How's your perspective on love changed? And the area we live?

Definitely very different now than I was in before. I was very much, which I think is maybe relatively evident in the book a bit of a serial monogonist and just like really did find it so hard to exist and in function that I do think I needed someone like I and the moment there was like attraction or a feeling, it's just sort of like, oh, you know, like, and like hold on tight, you know, and staying in situations that, I'm sure a lot of people, again, this is something that so many people would relate to in different ways, situations that weren't the wisest, that probably weren't great for either party involved, and that came from really just not knowing how to exist

by myself. And the feeling of love, right? Ooh, that's like, like we escape. It's pardon the pun, but transcendent, you know, it's and that feeling would give me a spark of life. It would give me a moment of I can breathe. Ultimately though, that's not the reason why I think we should be with someone and it's sad selfish on my part. And now I am so blown away by the fact that I can be alone.

Like that is such an exhilarating sensation, an element of the feeling away I never thought was possible. That right now I'm very much enjoying being, you know, connecting with people having some fun, but just sort of being on my own right now. And that is very new for me, very new for me. And I want love and a relationship to be, you know, I mean, our stuff's always going to follow us into intimate relationships, I know, but, you know, come from a solid and embodied foundation where I know I'm going into that, because we're going to love each other and explore life together and grow together and not because I'm clinging to something for dear life.

That sounds like it must be such a... So I'm single. So yeah. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. I love it. No, but I... Ha ha ha. That's brilliant. I was about to say, just how meaningful that must feel.

It sounds like such a profound place that it's such a deep space to feel that centeredness and stillness and being with oneself and that confidence of just being in oneself. But you're single, so that's we're going to throw that out there. How do you think the journey, and of course, you know the community's the trans community so well, so you would know how do you think the journey and of course you know the communities, the trans community so well. So you would know how, how do you think the journey is different when you are in the public eye versus when you're not? Like there are the obvious differences of course with, we've talked about like the pressure from successive movies and things like that. But are there any more nuance to subtle things that some of us could miss in plain sight because you're not living that journey or you're not seeing it

My name's Leverene Cox. I'm an actress producer, fashionista and host of the Leverene Cox show. You may remember my award-winning first season I've been pretty busy. There's always time to talk to incredible guests about important things People like me have been screaming for years We got to watch the Supreme Court what they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. They will take things away. And I can only hope that dobs is that like Pearl Harbor moment.

Girl, you and I both know what it took to just get through the day in New York City and get home in one piece. And so the fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think, as Chase said,

that we're always measurable, is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Leverand Cox Show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. happens, bedtime stories to help you sleep, has helped millions of people to get consistent deep sleep. I tell family-friendly bedtime stories that train you to drift off and return to sleep quickly. And I use a few sleep-inducing techniques along the way

that have many users asleep within the first three minutes. I hear from listeners every day who have suffered for years with insomnia, anxiety at nighttime, and just plain old busy brain, who are now getting a full night's sleep every night. I call on my 20 years of experience as a yoga and meditation teacher to create a soft landing place where you can feel safe and relaxed and get excellent sleep. Listen to nothing much happens bedtime stories to help you sleep with Catherine Nicolai on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Don't know, I mean it's so funny because it's just like my strange experience in

this in this life. I mean maybe in that you're just going through this transition in front of a lot of people and having people speculate or make comments or assumptions about your life and your experience that can often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning and at the same time everything, everything's like you know, relative, everyone's sort of having that in their own individual orbit. And my position obviously comes as such an enormous amount of privilege, like my life does not reflect the lives of most trans people who deal with disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence, etc., particularly black trans people. So I'd be lying if I said there were certain elements of this sort of unusual experience

that don't have its sort of challenges or difficult moments, and at the same time, what I always go back to is the degree in which my privilege and resources help and also protect me. If I'm getting threats, I have the money to hire security, I could get pay for surgery to get it quickly. All of these aspects that name change, think about that, all those documents, your passport, all of these things that, for those that don't have the certain privileges and resources I have is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.

Yeah, and I'm glad you raised that point because, yeah, I think, yeah, we have to also look at it from that perspective of just, again, going back to the reality of what these choices and decisions, like, actually look like in the real world because similar, and I appreciate that view from you constantly of, like, looking at it from, well, this is what it actually looks like. This is what's actually going on. This is what we may not see if we're only looking at the, you know,

the, and again, that doesn't take away from your journey as well. Like that, that shouldn't take away from the challenges and stresses and the, the realities of what you're experiencing. But I wanted to pivot to certain things because I feel like, I feel like the book is just the beginning of so many more exciting, incredible adventures of what you'll go on to do and achieve. And I heard that you're a big history buff. And I'm guessing you're doing a lot of reading there. I wonder whether there's any, as there been, and you talked about even just, I love what you've been saying, that just, and you know, when I'm hearing someone speak and it really, the way you express

this is really going to stay with me, this idea that the biggest win is just you being able to do the simplest things in a present way. Like that will stay with me so much because it's something that we all take for granted so much. Like, you know, you just, I know I do. Like, so it's a very easy thing to miss out on. And some of us are not even present, but even if we are present, we take that for granted. And so the idea that you feel so much presence and just having coffee this morning,

or like reading a book, or being with friends in the park or all those examples you were giving, yeah, I wanted to dive into what, seeing as you're such a big reader, when did you become such a history buff and what has been the latest historic discovery that has kind of brought you joy? I haven't been reading too much stuff about history.

Or anything else, Anything you're reading? Oh, lately I've been reading Octavia Butler because I, there's to say I hadn't read Octavia Butler before. So I just read Wild Seed and Kindred. I guess obviously those books have a his fantastical sort of history, but obviously a very intense history element to it, you know, particularly, you know, like Wild Sea Dan Kendrick, a very brutal history. Reading more novels lately, yeah, obviously both of Octavia Butler's books are novels, but also our wives under the sea was tremendous. Brandon Taylor's new novel. under the sea was tremendous. Brandon Taylor's new novel. I'm trying to call it the last Americans.

It might be getting the name wrong, but his latest novel was amazing. So less like history specific, but it's all history, yeah. Obviously there's historical elements and a lot of those different things. Not really the Brandon Taylor one. No, no, no, no, but yeah. Yeah, Brandon Taylor one. No, no, but yeah.

Yeah, the other ones. Yeah, no, no. And I think that is the point where, like, I think... It sucks from. Biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all... have historical elements to them. I mean, that's where they come from. And one part that felt very journal like in your book

was at the end of the book, you describe being at the show with Mark and having a moment of self love that you wanted to hold onto and you say taking a deep breath, exhaling down to my toes, I wanted to hold onto the feeling to pocket the joy, the fleeting moments of self love and I thought that felt very diary-like. Like it felt very like journaled, thought, you know, very unique words. And I wanted to know, like, why did you choose to end the book at 16 years old? Like again, we talked about the non-linear, but specifically to end on that after going through this journey back and forth. What was it? What was so? Yeah, why why end on 16 years old? Yeah, well, I felt like it sort of began the book at this time that was also involved. Mark and was this period of

feeling more self-love, feeling closer to myself, falling in love with my first girlfriend, Paula, and then that leading up to a moment that was a big pivot in my life. And then to sort of bookend that with this moment, 16 peaches concert, what would have been the queerest environment I'd probably been in at that point in my life. And the just palpable joy, the electricity of it. And I'll never forget that night. I'll never forget walking home with Mark and what that felt like, what that community felt like. And to end on that note there, at 16, having that atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who's inspired me since I was a teenager, it felt like a special moment to end on.

Yeah, I definitely felt it and it's wonderful to have that experience of you for a through your experience in that moment. And, you know, Elliot, I just want to say how honestly, I was so excited to meet you today and do this interview. And I love it when this happens when you get an experience that you didn't know you were going to get. And that's how I feel with you today where you can always intellectualize what you think you're going to learn or what you think you're going to gain. And I had all those ideas which I definitely have learned so much.

It's not that I haven't learned, but it's I've kind of been moved more internally and I feel that that's sometimes even more valuable because it's something that I can express from a deep place within myself. And I feel like I've been moved by you sharing your experience so boughtfully and intimately in your book, but also even getting the opportunity to sit with you today. And I only have a couple more questions for you. We ask at the end of every interview, do a final five, which is a fast five in the sense that they have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. But I always ruin it because I'm so intrigued by all my guests, but I'll try. So Elliot Page, these are your final five. The first question is,

what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? And it can be about any topic you choose it to be about. You know what, I don't know why this is popping as a membrane, but there's a memory popping in my brain. So I'm like, why not go with this? And the time in that period when everyone sort of go to was your dreams coming true, your dreams coming true, your dreams coming true, your dreams coming true. Kate Winslet said to me, and I was still am. I'm obsessed with Kate Winslet, love.

One of just my favorite actors of all time. And I was too shy to go up to her at this party or something. It would have been the first time we met. She just came up to me and was like, oops, obviously I took me a long time to listen to the advice properly up to me and was like, oops, obviously I took me a long time to listen to the advice properly, but she was just like, don't let them change you. Like, don't, like, you hold on to yourself essentially.

Don't let this. And I'll never free edit it. It was, I think the only person in who that cold period basically said anything like that, you know, from that. And I've always remembered it. And it's always mental out to me. I think that's a great answer. And yeah, what a beautiful statement.

Don't let them change you or don't do self. That's, that's beautiful. Okay, great. Second question. What is the worst advice you've ever had or received? Sure, this is easier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't tell people

you're queer and disguise yourself to trick them. Yeah, even those words disguise yourself to trick them and say, yeah, it's it's hard to live in a disguise and as a trick. Which is so silly too, as if like, so you're telling me lesbians don't wear dress like a what are we like just a binary ass? It's just ridiculous. Yeah. What are we trying? Yeah.

So boring. God. Question number three, what is something you used to value that you no longer value? I think like a certain idea or what we envision success to be, you know, that's not really that important to me anymore. Yeah, that was clear from what you said earlier, the idea that you were willing to let it all go if you're allowed to be who you are and be a totally. Yeah. It's like not what success means to me.

Question number four, what is something that you're currently trying to unlearn? I guess still, you know, whatever shame still lingers that was projected onto me by those around me society. Obviously, in a so much better place, like so much of it's probably unconscious, but as if it's not, you know, still lingering and still disconnecting from those thoughts or feelings that make you feel small.

And fifth and final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show, and I'm really intrigued to hear your answer. If you could create one Lord that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? You could take it down. That everybody had to follow. Don't be a bully. That's a good one. Bullying is out loud. Yeah. Any type of bully. Yeah. I think that's a good one. Bullying is out loud. Any type of bullying, yeah. I though that's a good law. That's a rule needs to become a law.

I love it. Elliot Page, everyone, the book is called Page Boy, a memoir. If you haven't read it already, highly recommend it. Read it for your own education. Share it with friends. Make your next book club pick to be able to discuss it, dissect it, support the communities around you, support your friends who are on their journey.

And I'd love for you to share with me and Elia, the thoughts, the reflections, the insights that stayed with you. There are so many things that I felt and experienced through this conversation that are definitely gonna stay with me. And I'd love to see, I know that you're phenomenal at doing this, you're phenomenal at doing edits and cuts on TikTok and Instagram and X and I'd love to see what are those moments in this interview and conversation that are going to stay with you and that you're going

to pass on to others. Elliot, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your presence today. Like I said, I will take this experience around and share it with many people because it's an experience that I've really felt deeply through your words and through your presence today. And so often when I'm sitting in this chair, the number one feeling I'm having is, I wish the world could feel what I'm feeling right now. Because so often I'm feeling if people could understand the pain, the hurt, the trauma that people like yourself are experiencing and could experience your humanity in the way that

I'm experiencing, then maybe we wouldn't treat each other that way, then maybe we wouldn't speak to each other that way, that maybe we wouldn't impact each other in that negative way. I'm really thankful I got to spend this time with you, and I really hope that more and more people get to experience you through your book and through your work so that they too can understand more about themselves and more about you. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Really appreciate it. Thank you. If you love this episode, you will enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scarf with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what, what the heck is a cue.

Listen to comeback stories. I'm Darren Waller. You might know me as a Titan for the New York Giants, or some of you might know me from my story of struggling with and beating addiction to become a pro-waltight in. With me, I have my friend and co-host Donnie Starkens, who is a yoga instructor and a personal development coach. Catch us every week on Come Back Stories, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. us. Hi, I'm Ellie Kemper. And I'm Scott Eckerd. And we're here to talk to you about the things we love on our new podcast, Born to Love.

I can tell you about something I love this week's got foam rollers. For my own mind, you're not talking pool noodle. Oh my gosh, no, thank you for clarifying. A new podcast from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.