On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Jerrod Carmichael ON: Reframing Shame into Self- Growth & Emotional Blocks That Stop Us from Having a Healthy Relationship

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

Get ready for a powerful episode today.   I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with the incredibly talented Jerrod Carmichael. Let me tell you, this episode is a game-changer for anyone who's all about acceptance and self-appreciation. You're in for a treat. He is a true master of his craft, known for his thought-provoking comedy and unique style.  Picture this: Jerrod opens up like never before, sharing his own experiences and dropping some serious knowledge on turning those uncomfortable conversations into deep, meaningful relationships. Jerrod speaks about how honesty with yourself makes it so much easier to connect with others on a genuine level. It's like a whole new world of connections is just waiting for us if we're willing to embrace our truth. Jerrod doesn't shy away from tackling those moments of shame when we're at our most vulnerable. He dives right in and gives us some powerful insights on how to deal with that head-on. It's like he's got this secret recipe for navigating shame with grace and coming out stronger on the other side. In this episode with Jerrod Carmichael, you'll learn: Understanding our emotional blocks that are stopping us from healthy relationships  How can we communicate better?  Why is our shame limiting us?  How to confront your fears   The challenges and great reward of honesty The importance of respecting people's time What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:20 “I’m someone who doesn’t want attention unless I ask for it.” 03:42 The passion to perform has always been alive and so appreciation for your audience is vital 10:36 Shame is the hardest emotion to deal with and it often limits us from doing more 17:37 How do you define what is authentic and what isn’t real? 19:53 Being honest has consequences and why sticking to your own truth matters 24:56 How do you reconstruct your relationship with God and live by your faith? 30:47 Learning how to confront your fear with an open mind 35:34 Understanding emotional blocks that are stopping you from having a healthy relationship with someone 38:01 When you create more issues for yourself by not communicating properly 42:49 Getting people’s attention and time is difficult thus it deserve respect 47:18 Finding the middle ground between a where you’re getting information and receiving information that forces you to self-examine 54:48 Focusing on one thing and doing your best to become better 01:03:32 Jerrod on Final Five Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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On purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. It means the world to me that we have this amazing community. And I've just been seeing the engagement, the connection that you're all having recently, all the Instagram posts, the TikTok posts,

the posts on Twitter, like it's unbelievable. Thank you so much for all the love. I really mean that. And I guess comes along in a while, which I actually hear about from friends. And friends get fascinated and I go, oh, I need to interview this person. And that's how I discovered today's guest. So I was sitting with a good friend of mine, Ellen DeGeneres. And she said to me that she just watched a special, uh, by Gerard Carmichael. And she said, this special was so special to not be cliché. This special was so incredible that she was so moved by it.

She was like, you have to want to have them on your show. You have to sit down with them. You have to talk to him. And I was just like, okay, so I went and watched it. When I checked him out, I was like, oh, this is incredible. This is really different to anything we've also done on the show. As you all know, we've only had a few standup comics

and comedians on the show so far. You know, so it's really new for us as well, but in the two minutes that I've spent with this gentleman backstage before we go live, I'm already addicted to his personality, which is always a good sign. So please welcome to the show Emmy-nominated comedian Gerard Kamek or Gerard. So good to see you. Thank you for doing this. Literally, was Ellen, I was sitting in Ellen's house and she, and I know she listens to the podcast. So Ellen, thank you for listening to the podcast.

But when she listens to this, she was just like, you have to, and I think you went on the show too with her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, last season, right? It was nice. I'd done it before, but it was nice to like go back and, yeah. She's a huge fan.

She's, I'm a fan of hers. I told her that like obviously like a comedian that comes out and is incredibly brave. You know, it's rare and she was at a time where it was really hard where you really, really got canceled for real. You know what I mean? Like actually like the show could get canceled.

You know what? Like and she was so brave and also incredibly good at her job. You know what I mean? And that's great. Yeah, I love it. It brought us together. So that's what I'm glad. I mean, a few seconds ago, you were saying that you've been

watching my stuff on Instagram, but when I look at you, you're very private on social media and you don't post a lot. I wanted to understand, was that intentional? Is that... I got my little private, I got my private IG, that is so weird. Someone called me out on it, it's like, you're private and verified,

and like, it's silly. It's really, like, my publicist, like, set it up with the intention of, like, posting about shows and the like and I'm someone who doesn't want attention unless like I asked for it. I'm probably the worst celebrity, whatever, ever, because I never really chased it. I really just like to work and then present that and that's pretty much it. And like something like Instagram is really it is me I wouldn't want to present like a false version of myself

so I Went to be presentation or so I kind of close it off to just like as a right now Maybe but I don't know if I'll ever do it. I'll probably delete it before I open it But I can be like more honest and like a control like I can just post things that I would actually I would actually text these things to everyone and so I can remain truthful on Instagram and Non-perform I'm a performer who's trying to remain non-performers How's that going?

It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, I've become funnier, I think, like on stage and stuff, by not performing, by being truthful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a better version of myself, but yeah, it's hard to, in life, it's hard to do that. Well, that must feel very comforting, I can imagine,

because I feel like for so many performers, there's someone on stage because that's their job and then there's someone at home because that's who they are. And so there's always this conflict inside and outside. What for you has been like the biggest impact on who you are today? Like, if you had to say, this is a recipe of how I was created, what would you add to that recipe to say like Gerard is a little bit of this and a little bit of that. What's sugar and spice? Yeah, um, it's a big question. It's a big question. Yeah.

Um, I, I don't know if I'll be able to fully answer it because like, you know, I'm influenced by, you know, the time I'm in, who I am, being American, all of those things that were all influenced by as a performer, influenced by, you know, everyone from Cosby to, you know, Jack Benny, to, you know, to rock and shapel and really good people, like people who are really good at their job. But lately I've been really influenced by just this drive to not lie. You know, like to not lie. And like it's made me a storyteller

because then like just trying to, you know, tell things about me, or things in my life that like are scary is funnier. I found for the work and being around people that I don't have to try and protect my words is more comforting. Yeah. When you were growing up, like, what was the environment for you growing up? We just took about North Carolina, which is where you were born and raised, right? So like, what was the environment like when you were growing up? And what, you know, for you, how early was it that you discovered that this was going

to be a path in life? Because I think for me, I'm always intrigued to figure out how people discover things they're passionate about and things that they love because that's so rare. How early was it for you and what was the environment that you grew up in? It was pretty early. I was a kid that performed a lot like I asked for a microphone every year at Christmas.

That was like my constant. I was like obsessed with microphones as a kid. I sang on the choir. Even when I was like a like three, my mom was an usher and she would after church, like I would cry until she helped me up to the mic. So I could, I just like, I like it. I really respect it.

It's powerful. It amplifies your voice. People listen to it like so intimately in a performance setting, even now like people are listening to this through headphones. You know, it's like so personal. And so, like, my whole life, I've kind of always felt that way. I've always filmed things.

I've always written, I've always performed. And then I fought against it, I think, for a period. I was really encouraged by a friend to make the leap and move to LA and do that I lived here for like 10 years and I thought it was like arrogant because I do think asking for people's attention Is precious like I try not to be like super precious in my work, but like asking for their time like doing a show if I'm doing a show, and I put up tickets and people spend money for tickets and then they drive out to the venue when they sit there and they wait for you and then they listen to you.

Like that's asking a lot. And so, especially recently, like just like respect that more, you know, like, like I think I have the respect that has been growing in me since childhood for it. The nudging of a friend got me out to LA, but it was, uh, yeah, yeah, I love performance. I love hearing that because I feel the same way that, you know, some, some people listen to this podcast every day. So they listen to the two new episodes and then they'll listen to old episodes. So I'm thinking sometimes I'm in people's ears every week for five to seven hours a week. And I'm thinking that is so, I'm so fortunate, right?

Like there's so much gratitude around that. That someone allows you into there, whether you are walking the dog right now, whether you're cooking, whether you're editing, whether you're cleaning, whatever you're doing at home right now. And you said that you've always had that kind of like that belief that having someone's ears or eyes or money or them turning up is precious. Tell me about then your, how does that lead into your creative process? Because I feel like for me knowing that I just finished writing my second book, it took

me two years to write it. And I put a lot of effort into it. And I know that when I've written a book, when it's taken two years in my life to write it, I'm putting it out. I have to, the creative effort is so high. Because, A, the book pages don't change. You can't edit those pages once they're out.

And someone's gonna take their time. It takes like, potentially... It's like written word. Written word, yeah. Written word is so, I always thought it's crazy that Twitter uses the word publish, right? Because like, it induces in me such anxiety, just thinking about the how permanent it is

and placing things out there that you can't get back. And like, that's why like, if I'm gonna perform, I think it's like, I don't do social media because I would like to put all of that energy and I don't even say, I don't do social media. Even that in itself could be a grand performance. I mean, like Kanye is an incredible, perform, like, you know, like it is very warholish

in that like it's spectacle to use a certain peel word. That's its own art form. It can be its own art form, but I put all of my energy into I'm a comedian, I make specials, I make television programming or whatever programs, I make movies occasionally, and whenever I'm doing that, I would only like for all of my energy and all of my thoughts to go to that. And then present that.

And I'm kind of repeating myself really, but I'm going deeper into it. Yeah, we're going deeper into it. And what's your creative process like? So you're saying you put all of your energy, but like when you're building a special, or one of those TV shows, like, how do you even start? Like, where's the process?

What's the starting point? Like, how do you get inspired at the beginning of it? Um, I mean, it's a spark of something, you know, something a lot of times, like anger. I think I started this. Wow. It's just like a little angry, then just start it performing, doing clubs and then solo shows and then preparing to do a television. And like, I do stand up for specials.

I think at my core, that's like, I think my intention reads better in that medium. And working backward from what that is, then take the writing in like former show, and like it just kind of happened. This, my last special, it happened really fast, just frustrations with secrets and feeling too old to keep them and too. You know, I didn't feel like an adult. I didn't feel like I had control of my own way.

And so that created a lot of urgency to find a way to resolve that. And art is just that attempt, like make a special and that's like my attempt. Now I'm sorry, I'm probably not willing to do it. No, I'm not necessarily, I mean, that's a great answer to hear that honestly, that's not. I'm trying not to be like a vase of about it.

It really is just like, it's, I've been writing for years, like in, and I'm always writing, sometimes it becomes a show, sometimes it becomes something that like, it's mostly like most of creating is just a bunch of like, trying and failing that no one sees.

Yeah. You know, and like, you know, failing in my own, writing, failing in my own head over and over and over and over again, and like trying to make something right or show, you know, structure or show. Yeah. But I love what you said that anger or frustration

with your own identity and your secrets. I mean, that whole concept is so real, I think, for so many of us, whatever that secret may be, whatever that identity may be, personally. I say to my friends, I really think everybody's in the closet about something. There's a thing, shame is such a powerful emotion, a strong, I mean, plenty of books about just how it can dictate the course of your life and your actions and your behavior and so much

is driven by shame and so much of who we are, just our attempts to hide that little piece of ourselves that can never be seen. At least it's been a common experience amongst people I've talked to in friends. I'm sure you get a high volume move of it. And so, yeah, it was exciting and really scary to try and make something that dealt with that head on. And that's how I've been feeling in my personal life,

just even though it's kind of a blur between my work and my personal life now. But I've been trying to have conversations that I'd never had in trying to deal with shame and trying to restructure my relationship with God. Wow. You know, like, am I the funniest comedian you've had on the show?

Like, it's just funny. I'm the funniest, right? That's a scary question. That's a scary question. I'm going to be like, I hope I'm killing right there. No, but the shame pods, I love that you went in that direction because I think that naturally shame is one of those topics that isn't talked about a lot publicly. Yeah. So to even bring it up in a podcast is great because we can actually talk about it.

But I find like we also live in a culture where shaming has become more normal. Right? So we're talking about a time when we realize how powerful shaming is as an emotion and how much it limits us from truly being ourselves at the same time shaming or cancel culture is growing at the same time. How do you mean, what do you look?

I feel like today we point more fingers at others because we know more of what others are doing. We are more likely to tear someone down because we can, whereas in the past, you wouldn't have access to do that. You might do it in your dining table or you might do it on your couch at home. But you didn't have the ability

to go on social media and leave hate comments or whatever that you're doing. So it's interesting that you're saying that at the same time as you're saying that, hey, we need, you know, shame is holding people back from being themselves. We're also shaming others more, I guess, or we have more opportunity to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have an opportunity to speak a lot.

That's the funniest thing, I don't know myself. an opportunity to speak a lot. You know, many things. You know, it's so much of that. So much of that. And to speak constantly and emotionally, you know, it's hard to like have intention in every tweet, in every post, in every... Should we? Is the question.

Yeah, well, it's even more powerful than the words spoken in a private setting, because it's something that is, even if you have one follower, it has the potential of being seen and expressed amongst others. So your intention reads, and I question that a lot. I mean,

I mean, we could go down and on for hours and hours about about like, it's affect on us. And like, you know, even just thinking about, even myself, when I'm on like Instagram, on my little private IG, right? I, you know, I have a decent group of friends that I follow. And it's just, it's so abnormal to catch up or have the illusion of catching up with all of them, you know, like constantly on loop. There are people sometimes that I see that I feel like I've seen, but I haven't actually had that experience with them. I've only had this experience with the representative that's, you know, like on close friends or whatever.

And yeah, it's just not like expressing that much. I have this theory that we all are kind of becoming our own news channel, like we're all the news. And we have to, if we're all CNN or Fox or whatever and we all have to fill the time. Like we have to fill the space. Like the more you do it, the more inclined you are to do it. And again, it's just hard to keep that married to intention. Like the sheer volume, if you just speak, if I wake up in the morning, I just speak all day

and I never pause. I, it would be difficult to promise that everything I say would have as much intention. Yeah. Just the sheer volume. Yeah, I like that theory. I like that theory a lot. That's cool because I

went to someone's house once and it's without a doubt the coolest house I've ever been to. This is a very cool house. So you're saying that from a very cool house. No, but this was like, this is like, and I'm saying it's a cool house, not because of the building, not because of the grandeur, not and same with this. I don't think that's why I think I like my own house was because of what he had in it. So he had a whole wall and he called it the fake news wall because it was every piece of news that was published before they knew the time. So back in the day, if a newspaper was being printed, if a game wasn't over, they'd have to print the news with who was winning at the time

in hope that, right? So all of this, whether it was people winning games, whether it was votes, whether it was, it was like articles that had been printed before the fact. So he had all of it in America, like all these big, and I was thinking this is fascinating, and what you're saying right now is that without intention, a lot of what we create is fake news in our own little news channels. Yeah. Well, because things change, you know, your, your, my opinion on an album, for instance, even just something as trivial as like, you know, my, my feelings toward a song or whatever.

Yeah. It changes. It changes over the course of a week. It changes through how I listened to it. I imagine if I were just talking publicly about Kendrick's last album, which I went from not understanding to not liking, to only liking the interludes, to then listening to it while I was getting a Mandy Petty.

And I turned the volume halfway down so I could like actually like hear the words, I had to focus on the work something about like the lower volume, made me pay attention more, and like hearing what he was saying, and then being in love with the album, and those tweets would have been a rollercoaster. Like, just like of emotion if I just like,

if I put that out like constantly, because your thoughts towards something should like change and evolve and like sometimes may take a little while to reach stable ground on. And some people would argue that the journey is authenticity. Yes. But what is authenticity to you as a comedian, as someone who's like the theories that you just said,

like how do you define what is authentic and real and what, what isn't for you? This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's crazy how we can get so caught up in meeting everyone else's demands that we forget to prioritize ourselves. I've been there, and let me tell you, when you're constantly giving without taking a moment for yourself, it's a recipe for feeling totally drained and burned out.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Take good care. I'm Mungesha Tickler, and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention.

Because maybe there is magic in the stars, if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, major baseball teams cancelled marriages K-pop But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology My whole world can crash down situation doesn't look good. There is risk to father and My whole view on astrology It changed Father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too.

Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. I try a lot of things are true, right? Like, you can go, I was presenting a lot of true things, right? Like things that I thought were hard facts or perspective that people wouldn't want to say out loud or be able to tolerate. And, you know, I did believe it and it was true. But it wasn't like, in my eyes, the most compelling version of the truth.

I've found, like, now, like, when working, I run toward things I'm afraid of and that have personal consequence in my life. So talking about me, because I never really talked about myself before, never considered myself a storyteller. And this is something I'm in many ways making art while learning in real time. But it is and has become my live show just like this kind of personal exploration.

Not just that things that bring me shame, things that bring, like, and again, it's hard to talk about the show. Yeah. Only because I'm sure I'm making it. I must give the caveat that it's actually funnier than I've been, but I try and keep it compelling. You know, like I try and keep stakes in the act and tension there. Like that's my new focus.

It is, you know, both says like, give the audience a lot, like more giving and I have more need of for them now more than ever. And I like that experience. So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really personal now. The things that are dangerous to me, like the evil, connevil things are like my feelings toward, you know, myself or my feelings toward, you know, myself or my feelings toward, you know, relationships that I had. What was the first thing you think you ever combated through that art exploration internally

as a fear? Like, I love that idea that your storytelling now or your specials there, a exploration of something you're scared of. What was the first ever thing? Do you remember that you were scared of that? No, that's kind of baby stepped into my last project. So I was like, I made these documentaries for HBO, where I went home, and I was confronting my father's adultery and my mother's forgiveness of him.

And I tried to come out to my mom, but I did it in a very, it was fearful. So I was like, I hooked up with dudes before, like just like kind of wait and pour reaction. And it wasn't full truth. And then, you know, some time later, I came out to my family and it had still resonating consequences to that. It affected our relationship in a real way.

There's a lot of anxiety and not speaking of kind of separating myself from my family a lot recently. I only share because I'm still in that part of the process. I want to be honest about it. I don't know how you'd all like what I'm just like and I pray that it gets better and we should talk later about what prayer means to me. But yeah, one two, yeah. But it's, you know, great, again, like kind of personal

consequence. And so my last special rath annual was me, you know, really kind of drawn a line in the sand with my family coming out publicly contending with my father's adultery. It's effect on me, the kind of generational trauma caused by adultery, caused by having other kids outside the marriage that were kept secrets in hell, just years of secrets like kind of repressed us and repressed me into a liar, you know, and I'm unable, a liar and unable to tell my own truth. And so I look at the special as being,

the synopsis could read like on HBO, like man afraid of heights jumps out of an airplane for the first time. Like that was my last special. Like that was the intention was doing the scariest thing I could imagine. I never thought I would ever come out. I was afraid of the public's reaction.

I was mostly afraid of my mother's. That was the the feet walking on to the stage and doing it. Yeah. I mean, that even just here when you say that, I mean, that is so inspiring as a creative person, like to hear that your creative impetus or intentional process is to confront a fear a shame something that difficult And of course you're doing it through comedy, which is even harder in one sense because you're making these extremely deep traumatic events You know light hearted to some degree where people are able to be entertained But the thing is what I found with audiences is that when I go when I share things that are personal to me No matter what the danger enough said things that are I mean this is happening real time and like it's like tweets

like art is Capturing a moment in time. That's why I try and focus all the energy on one thing like my my special is just one IG life Yeah, you know, I mean like it's like it's like the one thing, like my, my special is just one IG life. You know what I mean? Like it's like, it's like the one thing that I've focused on. I found that when I, when it's personal, it's not the same. Audiences, like you can't, like I'm talking about how I feel.

I'm talking about me. I'm talking about things I went through and how that developed this perspective, right? That's all truthful. It's different than if I'm just like talking about what you you can't do. I'm all for whether you like it or not, kind of comedy, free speech, you have every right to do that, like in comedians do that and I did that. I mean, most of my career, but still up until recently was a lot of that trying to say the thing.

I like to think that mine was more intellectual, but that's my own egotistical argument for it. But, you know, but now I'm talking about me, and when I'm talking about me, like, audiences react with empathy or compassion, even when I say sometimes I say like some wild things, you things, but it's mine is personal. That's different. You have ownership over how you feel. And that's what I want my art to be just like how I feel right now,

just like an emotion, like a pure intention bottled. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot. Yeah, I get that. You've said, it's interesting though, your language is like full of like intention truth like yeah, I almost hate it because it's like these are powerful words that obviously get overused and I'm sure I'm overusing I don't think you are I The word platform like I hate the word platform. I don't think you're overusing them. I feel like I

Don't think you're overusing them from from at least what I'm I'm generating from this conversation like I don't think you're overusing them from, from at least what I'm, I'm generating from this conversation. Like, I guess, I guess what I'm fascinated by is like what you said, you said you were, I think you used the word and I could have got the word wrong, but you said you're reconstructing a relationship with God or reframing that. And then you said, let me define what prayer is to me. Let's do both those things. What did you say that I pray? It's in many ways one and the same because I think my entire life I kind of believe this but didn't have the language to articulate how I felt.

And that is truly taking the Christianity that I was taught growing up my whole life into church every Sunday, even when my mom will work, I want my grandma sang on the choir, Sunday school class into regular service state after talking to the park and let full church boy. And learning about God, the man in the sky who at, you know, your requests can show you benevolence and as consequence for your sins, punish you. And I was taught about this man and internalized this man. And he dictated my actions and my words and my fear. And then I read this book by Eric Butterworth,

called Discover the Power Within You. And it helped me articulate how I felt, which is if you take Christ's words as philosophy, right? Like just like, um, take away this human need to worship the light and just listen, um, and accepting your own divinity. And by divinity, I don't want to be confused because I think blues sometimes non religious people, I mean, you're, you know, potential for, to function fully. That's all something that Christ has said that you have, you have at birth, it is your right,

and you are essentially got manifesting himself as J, as Gerard, you know, like it's, I accept that, I accept that. I accept my own potential. I've realized that prayers are just affirmations that you are asking for what you already have. I think it's why, like, good advice feels familiar. Some of the, something you're like, yes.

Oh, yes, I knew that. Yeah. That's so true. That is so true. And it is there. And it's divinity that we all have access to. But it's always like the practice that's rough, right? Because it's easier. It was easier for me.

I want to speak personally. It was easier for me to just accept a guy that I can send and then ask for forgiveness and, you know, a Bible that I didn't fully understand and just kind of accept that there's this external force, dictating. And, you know, the double relinquished me of responsibility for my own actions. I was able to kind of back away from things, that wasn't me. That was the devil. And now by internalizing that philosophy, and seeing it as philosophy, I had to remove the magic from the Bible. And this is what works for me.

And I'm saying it cautiously because I know I can I can still see the ears of my mother parking up. So I'm saying that this is what has helped me. And just like realizing that God is me functioning as I can, you know, and things function as they can, access to good, like we all have access to good, even through tragedy, even through tragedy, even through pain, those words of the Bible become different.

They hit a little different when you accept yourself as innately divine, right? You know, all things work for good, for through God who strengthens me, you know? Like, Philippians, it's something, that you know, you're trying to, oh, I can use all of this for good. I can take what, you know, I can take the rubble or things from the ashes and make something new out of this and continue forward, like, with a sense of purpose, with a sense of duty. I can form that, you know,

taking tragedy and we see it all the time like, you know, parents of children who've gone through tragedies or, you know, people just with loved ones who've experienced something and then they take what's been destroyed and they make something new, you know, and that is the Bible that's using your own innate power to move forward. And that's the line between me and my mother that's been the line between me and the church

my entire life. I've always wanted to believe that. And it wasn't until I came out or even accepted, let's just say, accepted, who I was, that I was forced to then say, okay, well, God, as tall to me, is not accepting of me. And I had to re-examine in order to not destroy myself. Yeah. I love hearing your thought process because it's so real. Like you're so in it. And as someone who's created a piece of art based on a fear,

you've had to live through that fear again and again and again in the creation process. How did it feel? Did you feel that making a piece of art on that relinquished a fear and now you could move on to another shame or another guilt or another fear, or what was it like? Like, does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, and speaking of that, feel like I was like, I did a few shows on the role in preparation for the special, and I was like coming out to audience members that knew me like every night. Like it was like a new, it was like jumping off a cliff. Like every night. Yeah, yeah.

And it was a lot, but it is how I knew it's the direction I needed to go in because it did scare me. And I've learned to trust that feeling isn't always that I'm going in the wrong direction, but in fact that I'm going, the wrong direction, but in fact, that I'm going, there's like a lot of fertile ground. Yeah. Yeah, it's the fear.

It just stays. It just stays the whole time, the whole time. It's always released and then you kind of release the fear. Did you feel you released the fear when that happened? Yeah, in many ways, well, in many ways, because I feel more truthful publicly now, which feels great. Yeah. That feels really, really good. Yeah, and so I don't have the fear of being found out in that way, but I'm definitely

still fighting through shame and how it's manifested itself in my life through, you know, things that really like, if that I could call hyper-condria or OCD or whatever, but really like anxieties rooted in shame that I'm working through and that I'm trying to understand better myself and I feel it like my job to explore that. You know, so I kind of chase that feeling. I don't recommend it. I was just about to say, I was like, how do you recommend people do this?

Because I think that whether you're a performer or not, we all have to go through this process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do recommend like, for whatever it's worth me saying, like that you run toward all of the things that you're afraid of. In a truthful way, contend with it with an open mind. I think that's very, very important. How did you do it in a way that didn't break your hurt you or because I think that's where people are scared of shame and guilt because it feels like a broken piece of glass.

Yeah. And so when you pick up a broken piece of glass, you could get caught. So people like, I was just better to just shove it away. Yeah, I don't know. And I'm still like, you know, I feel like I'm still picking it up. But good friends, very, very important in my case. And, you know, people that remind me where the ground is. You know, like? Yeah, yeah.

Just get caught up in all of it. All of it anxieties real. I'm recently admitting that I experience anxiety. I ran away from admitting that much of my life. Yeah, I can relate to that. I remember a few years ago, my mom would always tell me, I think you're stressed, and I'd be like, I'm not stressed, I'm fine.

And I didn't even want to admit it to myself. So it's not that I was lying to her, I was lying to myself. I didn't even want to, because I was scared that if I let that in, then that would change me somehow. That is block me, stop me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't realize that.

And that you're weak. Totally. It's the thought that you're weak out there. You're being consumed by these. All this small little thing is eating you up and it's just like, yeah. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And it is, yeah, yeah.

And I had a friend that I remember was going for depression very early on and like this when we were much younger, and I was like, how can you be depressed? You've got nothing to be depressed. You know, that kind of mindset. And then you go for something yourself and you go, oh God, I experienced depression.

Like, I was scared of accepting it. And it took me, it was the same for me. It was the weak aspect. It was the aspect of no, no, no, some people have it much worse. Like, what am I complaining about? It was, it was the shame that came with, oh no, but I'm, you know, I, if my mom thinks I'm stressed

and she'll get stressed, it's not the guilt. All of that. And any excuse not to confront it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel like you just keep putting it off and now I've realized that I need to talk to that feeling or emotion

when it arises because me putting it away just makes it get bigger and darker and deeper. And that's what I find so interesting doing it through art because when you're putting it out in front of other people, again, now it's their mind, their impression gets involved too, like what they're gonna think of it. Yeah. What is it right now, if you said there do's a fear right now or a shame or a guilt right now

that you're trying to unpack next, like is there something that not that you're working on specifically for a new project, but even just in your own life? Yeah, you know, probably emotional blocks that like stopped me from being in like a healthy relationship with someone. Wow. You know, and as someone who came out publicly later, I realized that there are phases and things that I go through and that it's normal to go through. And but, but just understanding those blocks, um,

it has been interesting to me as a late, and dealing with the things that don't sound cool. Like give me an example, I can't. I don't care, I can't. Well, only because not that I, not even that I don't want to, but I'm only respecting that on stage is a different place. Yes.

That allows me to say things. I get it. I get it. I may say something that I'm like, well, now we need another hour. Yeah. You know, I'm like, well, can I explain everything that led to that? Like, you know, like, I don't know. I love that. Like, you know, like, I don't know. I love that.

Yeah, yeah, nothing. I mean, you know, just things that are personally scary to me, you know, like, you know, there are no bodies or anything, but like, but, you know, there are like, you know, things that have like emotional consequences that, that I, you know, have run from. I like how simple you went back to, it's just like good friends, like, you know, friends

are just, it sounds like such a basic thing. And I was, we had some friends over that hadn't seen for years this weekend. And we were all just appreciating that as well in terms of, I remember I, I've been coaching people for a long time. And that was really what my work was before I did any of what I do today. And all I ever met was people who were lonely at the top. Like, that was consistent with my experience. And so, I would often say to myself that while I'm building my life,

I don't want to make sure that I build relationships at the same time as build things. And I don't just mean, like, love and romantic. I mean, like, friendships, as you're saying. And I've realized just how much time that takes, how much energy that takes, how much effort that takes, but how fulfilling it is, and it sounds so simple, and it's so basic.

I was difficult in this almost. But yeah. And it's almost a lot of the things that drive you to be successful are isolating. Yeah. Like, there is a lot of accepted selfishness, even amongst friends, like I, at times, have been a horrible friend, like a very selfish friend.

Like, I mean, just like, get on the phone, talk about me for an hour. All right, bye. You know, just like a one-sided friend, a friend who's used money to supplement connection. A friend who's like kept friends at arms distance, a socket work or focus or however I justified it. And I still do that.

I still do that. Like that like, I can relate. Like in, and I value my work. And so specifically in art, like it's like licensed to sometimes indulge in behavior or in emotions that are harmful to relationships. And I can't tell of that. Look, it's not okay because it's like, but it's like an occupation

hazard. Occupational hazard, yeah. Yeah, it's an occupational hazard. It's like you're I don't know I have to go there like I have to go into this cave In the 1680s a feisty opera singer burned down a nunnery and stole away with her secret lover In 1810 a pirate queen negotiated her cruise way to total freedom with all their loot During World War 2 a flirtatious gambling double agent helped keep D-Day a secret from the Germans. What do these stories have in common? They're all about real women who were left out of your history books.

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money's got your back? Millions of listeners have trusted us to help them achieve their financial goals. Ensure that your resolution turns into ongoing progress. Listen to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Well I think the part I find fascinating about it is the awareness of it, right? I think the lack of awareness, a lot of people may be doing that but they don't even know why.

Yeah. Whereas, and I can relate to a lot of that. I've definitely been very clear with friends, family, things like that about what I can and can't do based on what I'm working on. But it's different when it's carved out, when it's communicated. Yeah. And when it's, and right like helps. Exactly. It definitely helps.

It definitely helps be, like, and that's a part of honesty in not lying to yourself about what you're doing, you're being able to say, okay, I used to be so late to work just because I'm just in my head and I know how long it takes me to shift gears and I would lie to him about. I didn't realize I was lying, but I would start at three. and then like 530 and I'm like okay I'm ready you know and he's and I'm wasting his time I'm being a horrible it's not even productive for me because like now I'm trying to like work closely with someone who's like like justifiably frustrated with me. Totally. You know, and so like just like learning to communicate even like,

oh look, this is how I'm feeling right now. This is how I'm feeling today. Yeah. So I'm working on like, I don't even know if we're gonna get to it. And he's like, look, then I'll make it as a loose plan. Exactly. And I'll either see you at three or in two weeks. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what we're so scared of communicating. And that's what I feel the same way I was talking about in relationships. So with my wife for a long time, I'd always be like three nights, three nights this week. I just need to spend time alone. You can say that or you can say, hey, these three nights I'm working on this thing, which means I need some time and space. Yes. That's totally different to, hey, these three nights I'm just going to be home late. And it takes a little bit more time and energy and effort and this isn't about advice.

It's just about the idea of what you're saying that you're actually creating more issues for yourself by not communicating. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. The courage that it takes as it just pays off, like you just said, your friends are, yes, yes, yes. The courage that it takes has, it just pays off. Like you just said, your friends are all clear now. But saying the thing, saying the thing is potentially awkward. And it's not even that, a lot of times like the biggest conversations in my life,

the scariest ones aren't, that won't even lead to devastation. It just could potentially lead to like a moment of discomfort, discomfort of cringe or whatever, and it's worth it. It's worth it. My friends and I'm closest with have called, essentially have called me out on a lie, which is a difficult thing to do, and we survived it, and we're closer because of it. Yeah.

That's impressive. Yeah, that's impressive. Yeah. That's impressive. I mean, most people can't take that. But that's what it comes back to awareness. Like, even earlier, you mentioned ego. And it was like, even the ability to see your own ego is a healthy sense of awareness.

I mean, we're in this attention economy right now, where like we talked about as we started with this idea that everyone's trying to grapple for people's attention. People will even invent things in their life to get attention because it's so hard to get attention when you're trying to not even get attention. People are raising their children on the internet. People are like camera, like the children are like sleeping. But with that, like the attention part, like how is it that, then in a world where then

you're trying, you're saying that you're still, you still have to compete for attention, but you're trying to do it for fear and exploration and art. Like, to me that's like, interesting to me, it's interesting because it's scary and it's like, it makes a lot of emotion for me. And like not only respecting people's time, but realizing, you know, just how hard it is to get anyone's attention for a moment and to make people feel anything, you know,

because that's also, if you're in and data with bad news even like you, you know, because that's also if you're inundated with bad news even like you, you know, people a either seek good news through their art or be like, you know, only a really authentic version of something can even resonate or have the potential to resonate with a viewer or listener. And, and so, you know, I, I respect it and I know it's hard. So that's why I save it for when it's ready. Even if it's a daily show, if I were doing a daily show, I would just save it off for that night.

But that's just how, again, I say that with the non-judgmental disclaimer of someone who follows accounts on Instagram that I find funny or in some ways inspirational or whatever, but it's always like, there's always like the truth that like really gets me. So why I love sports, sports is true. I watch, I don't even watch sports, but I watch ESPN all day, every day,

sports center around the horn. It's just facts. Yeah, yeah, PTI, like just like like facts, facts, facts, truth, truth, truth. Opinions, I plenty of opinions, it's funny. It's just an honest. What's your favorite sport? Whatever. Oh, right. Oh, it doesn't matter. I also like straight things for gay reasons. So like I'm like really obsessed with the lighting of basketball. The stadium is like, you know, there's a arena's gorgeous. You know, like, you know, the golden light of the garden or whatever.

Like, I'm, but I'm obsessed with the production of it. I'm obsessed with like, you know, the performance. I've never heard that sports is true. What it's a TV show, like my, you know, friends who really truly love sports, I would say that. But I'm like, yeah, the NBA is just like a long-running television program. Yeah. You know, like Michael Joyer was one of my favorite stars. But programming got me to watch it on TV. You know, like like it's, you know, a tour.

It's a televised tour. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, yeah, that's an interesting way to see it. I'm obsessed with soccer football. Yeah, but the rules of performance, when I go to games, you know, it's a full show that also trying to keep the audience attention the whole time.

In American, to show, in England, to show champions. Yeah, in England, it's not like that. Oh, no, we're trying it. So you're sports in England, there is no entertainment but this sport. Oh, that's nice. This sport is the...

Or even advertising in England seems so, like when you're going down, like, in London, if you're walking down the Strand, part of what makes it gorgeous is that it's just like these really like, these giant brick buildings that reflect light well and have no, it's not a lot of ads, yeah, it's different, it's just like clean. Yeah. And sports is like that. You won't, you see sponsors on shirts, obviously, and sponsors around the pitch, but it's,

it's different. Like I realized that when I came to the US, I was like, oh, wow, everything's entertainment, everything, you know, not just the sport. Yeah, yeah. You guys do do the giant soccer. I don't, I mean, it's some of the jerseys are cool. I don't like it on the NBA jerseys. It's like not worth it. Yeah, they're realistic. They're like, you need quick and loans right here. Like give a kid a clean.

I'm like, Jersey, I love God. Oh, but, yeah, yeah, it's like, I mean, America's been in a way that's just so, it's so part of the culture. It's like even like movies, you know, I've fought really hard in my movie to even keep just like Coke bottles or something. Cause that is, to me that looks American. You're looking at a photograph of New York or LA.

Like in many places recognize it, but the advertisements and just like the pure ubiquity of it. Totally. What's your take on? I guess, as looking at, I love how you have theories and insights on all different industries, looking at the advertising industry, or looking at product placement, looking at that. Like, is there, do you have any interesting theories about how ads have changed? Because obviously, now we're going from targeted ads,

ads everywhere, I mean, you're off social media, but like, I'm just fascinated to hear your thoughts on advertising and attention, like, and why we fall for every time, because... Yeah, I'm susceptible to... Me too, I love it, I love good apps. I have an iPhone. iPhones aren't even the best phones, but I bought one.

Like I see pixels and stuff. I'm like, that is amazing. Are you a bio? Are you a head, well, I mean, no. What I'm gonna like text my friends from like a green bubble. But like it's because of the app, like it really soaked like Apple soaked me on a dream and I'm a suck who bought it. Same. And like it's sleek and it's because of the app, like it really soaked like Apple sold me on a dream and I'm a suck who bought it

Same and like and it's sleek and it's cool. I mean there obviously great qualities to whatever but like like I'm I'm very susceptible to things. I'm just I'm susceptible to words and images just like you know and so that's part of reason It's hard for me to see things because I know like it's a lot for me I guess why I have to to do the YouTube no ads. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, now it's an interesting thing. Like, it's a lot of brands that are afraid of its customer. Like, I'm really a lot of corporations

that are very timidly putting friendly, diverse commercials for. They always want it to appease everyone, but now I think there's a lot of timidity to it. Some of them are still creative. You know, obviously, Geico changed the world. Yeah, definitely. Like there should be some type of war for like, just like, yeah, like, that Gecko should

win like, thing of the year. Like, time, time, time, time. Yeah, time Gecko of the year. Like, time, time, time, time. Yeah, time, Gecko of the year, because it's like, like, I mean, it did. Like, it made everything not about the product. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I respect it a lot. I respect it a lot. Yeah, because I'm like, if it's true, obviously if it's true, that's a big part of it, but I love it when someone has thought about the aesthetics and someone has thought about the presentation. I can respect that that required a lot of brain power, right?

It required that in a potential, it didn't just go, oh yeah, I just turned up. I mean, bro, it's like, good advertising. Like, oh, well, it's also respect the Edward Bernays, you know, manipulation of it all. Like just like, man, you really got me. You really get, just, but yeah, but there's something, there is fascinating to see who had the ability to shift human behavior That is fascinating to observe and I think if we observe that more

I think we wouldn't get as sucked in by it. Yeah, right? Like because what we're saying is we like good advertising, but we know when it's advertising Yeah, and so I'm not saying I can I'm not susceptible to it But I'm saying that being able to see what's working on me is helpful. Yeah, it's just that exactly, that what you're being presented, okay. So this is probably a lot.

So the two parts, one, I'm perpetually trying to change my mother in test or capacity for change. And her ability to question the source, hey, is religion, as you've learned it, something that may have been manipulated over time and like, are all of these things like the divine word of a divine being, or are they influenced by kings and politicians alike over the course of the 2000 years since, right? So there's always that. And so like, I'm probably to a degree that is unhealthy, cynical, and skeptical, and definitely believe conspiracy a lot. But I also

think that the belief of conspiracy is dangerous, right? So it's like trying to find modal ground, right? It's just like, because the belief of conspiracy is like, why we know anti-vaxxers, right? Like it's just like everyone's like, but Tuskegee experiment, but I'm like, one that doesn't really make sense because to me of the government's intention was to control the population, then wouldn't they put the thing in the vaccine that actually saves you

and kill everybody else? Yeah. But that's a conspiracy. You get it, like, that's a wild thing to say too. But like, it's just a rabbit hole of never ending things, so it's, and I get that it's difficult to know truth in new source now. But like, it's trying to find middle ground between like having a respectable, I don't know, your own internal checks and balances for where you get your information, and where you get the information that dictates your life.

And it's hard. It's just playing. Yeah, it's hard. I think today, because it's like, yeah, it's exhausting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do I go? And I don't, and I want to be honest and say, there isn't a place to say, hey, go to this website, that gives you the best news because there isn't. Like, you know, and so you're always gonna have that. And I wonder how you feel. You'll definitely be less happy to do that.

Like, that's a thing, like with information, you'll be less happy. But I think we're all less happy anyway, because we're receiving so much information anyway. So you might as well like receive information that forces you to self-examine. Correct. Like, self-explores. So it's like we're inundated with in anyway.

Yeah, if you can make time for absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And whichever one obviously is. But we make time. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like we do make time. Like the busiest person like, you know, all my friends, and I know that I have like the

luxury of not having a day job. I call it half a luxury, because I do need to be busy to not drive myself crazy. But like, you know, those I know that are like working, like 12 hour, 14 hour shifts, still find time to like be in and dated with information. You know what I mean? Like a lot of it's numbing.

And again, it is exhausting, but it does lead to I think a healthier life. Yeah. You know, like self-awareness and being able to question. Oh, great. It's my mother's fearful of the ground that she's been walking on being moved. Yeah.

And I get that, but, you know, not, I just wish it wasn't at the sacrifice of self-exploration. Well, I think that you just hear something really powerful. Like, for a long time, I believe that what people most needed was care and love. And I started to realize that for most people they weren't searching for that, they're searching for safety, safety in an

ideology, safety in a relationship, safety and security and stability is what people are looking for. And so the challenge with confidently exploring an emotion or an ideology feels unsafe. Yes. Because it makes you question what you're standing on. Everything, everything. But that requires you to recognize that it's more unsafe to not examine. Yes. What you think.

Yes, yes. But that's a giant leap. That's a giant leap. That's a very, very giant leap. And it's like, it's easier to live under the law of platitudes and not explore. How do you find as a comedian as an actor, right? And you're directing, you're creating, how does that help you explore the truth differently? What is that doing that's different for you personally?

Because obviously now we just, we've literally just been extrapolating how you do this as a comedian and how you do this in your work, but then acting and directing and creating is totally different, right? Yeah, yeah, and well, I mean, you've been playing your parts of your soul.

I've been doing that and I'm trying to do less of that. I don't want to be a multi-high fit, but I'm not necessarily chasing that. I do think that I have a skill in multiple things, but I would like to create focused work. Right. And so even like acting and directing my last movie is something that I would never do again.

And I'm very thankful, I believe we pulled it off and made something that can resonate with people that I would rather focus on one thing. I think that it's important, even the idea of like, Egot is cool, I would rather be the best at one of those things. You know what I mean? But they do all have one thing in common,

and that's like finding truth, and as an actor, I do believe the more I've explored my emotion, and walls, I started doing psychoanalysis a couple years ago, and it's been very helpful letting me find the thought underneath the thought and actively get in touch with intention, right? And acting is believing. And it's easier to get in touch with intention when I've explored them, you know, and I have

more access to different intention now. And so I am excited to act more. Now, I feel like my whole career is, you know, just been me learning and building up until even it will continue to be that. But recently, I feel like I've had more access to the truth and made like a conscious decision to do that going forward or at least to try. So, so I think that would make whatever I'm doing better. Yeah.

But yeah, that's like the common thread. Yeah, I felt like, because even the idea in the movie of like two men making a suicide pact, like that concept. Only works if you play it, truthfully, people were afraid of that movie. On account of three was very hard to get finance. Nobody wanted to do it, you know it truthfully, people were afraid of that movie. On the count of three was very hard to get finance. Nobody wanted to do it, you know, very luckily, bound to that.

What was the reason people don't like making movies about it? Well, one because what comedy it's with the assumption that it isn't truthful and that it will be made fun of and just dismissed and made light of, right? And I like my show and I always believe that you can find a lot of humor while taking things seriously. And to me, that's the best humor, like my favorite movies, even the movies I think are the funniest watching a Cohen Brothers movie or a Safty Brothers movie,

or even directors who don't have a brother. They're funny because it's so real. It's hyper real. That's my taste and my sense of humor. To me, count of three is like, because of the stakes of it being your last day on Earth, it's actually aspirational in a way that allows itself to be very, very, very, very funny because it's like, you know, it's sincere. They really think this is the end.

These two characters, Kevin and Val really believe that. And we take seriously the reasons they're there, and it just makes a product that keeps my attention. I think people have respected it and respect the film more because it takes depression seriously. It takes treatment of it seriously, and it takes seeing suicide as a resolution seriously, and we weren't afraid to treat the audience like the you know if you've experienced this if you've had these thoughts and like one you know I

do believe that it can be triggering so it is important to know yourself when going into it but I do think people who have and I've now been able to talk to people and read things that people have written about going through depression have in suicidal ideations and even attempts and connecting with the film in a way that they didn't expect because it was truthful. Mm-hmm. You know, and that was important and laughing at it

because it was truthful. Yeah. And so, you know, that's always the gamble I'm willing to take that like, being truthful, treating my audience as adults will pay off. Yeah, yeah, it was hard. It was really hard. No one, like it cost me a lot of my own money. I like went broke making the movie. You know what I mean? Like, it was really, really hard, but really worth it.

Really worth it. Even just as an artistic statement of of fearlessness to explore, it was worth it. I mean, you know, just I'd seen your work and I think when you sit down with someone and this why I do the podcast, it's like to really hear about why they do it. And then you get a deeper appreciation of what someone does when you know why they do it and how they think about it and how far they go off the edge to do it. And I just find you really inspiring on in a different way than then I'd usually imagine with comedy because it's not just in team and it's not just galvanizing a crowd, it's not holding attention, it's like the ability to encourage us all to move

in the direction of our fears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're doing that, whether you're saying that or not, that's what I feel encouraged to do through your work. Oh, I really appreciate you saying that. My friend Boa always says that like, it's more the access to fearlessness, right? And like, I'm trying to make things that report on these moments

where I gain access to, like, it's, yeah, it's almost like journalism. It's really powerful. It's super powerful. I mean, I feel moved by it personally because it helps me think about how if that's your intention behind the work you're doing, that's the same as any other, if someone has the intention of improving people's lives, that's exactly what that's doing. Simply by that shift because

whatever we're scared of is holding us back in so many ways and and you know, that's a basic thing we all know, but it's very rarely explored in content as the soul intention. Yeah. Like it's you know, you know, you know, yeah, yeah, people think how do we make this make money or how do we make this make people off or how do we make it and those are all like beginnings and ends. They're not deep, they're not in tension. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the thing that most has my attention. Yeah, attention, yeah.

Right, like it's like, there's a monster under the bed. Okay, well, I could sit here, I could eat popcorn, I could watch TV, I could think about anything else. Everything in my life is about this monster. Yeah. Like until I look, and I wanna make art about looking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that, I love that. Jared, it's been so awesome talking to you. This is great, thank you for taking the time. This is, I mean, I'm genuinely like, this has been one of the most fun conversations I've had in a long time, and it's because the reason why I do this for myself

is I love sitting down with people where I don't know where things are going. Like I don't know where the conversation's gonna go. Yeah, yeah, it's fun. And that's what I enjoy so much because I was like, I just wanna get to know this fascinating human. I like talking to you and yeah, no,

it feels for your sociable therapeutic. Correct, yes, for me. Like, it is true,, I really appreciate you, and you have beautiful eyes. That's what it does. It's almost too powerful. I had to look away a couple times. I love it.

I love the sound of your voice. I can listen to your voice, so be it. So we got equal appreciation. I was like, well, his voice is just so nice. We're gonna collab on an ASMR channel. I mean, I mean, except my eyes don't help them much. No, no, people gaze and I'll read. I mean, you let me know.

But Gerard, we end every episode with the final five. This is a fast five. So the questions have to be answered in one word, or one sentence, maximum. Wow. So one word to one sentence. Okay. All right, the first question is,

what is the best advice you've ever received? Don't take advice. Okay. Good, great. Yeah. What is the worst advice you've ever received? Listen to him. I love it.

Question number three, I think we already answered this through the podcast, but I always like to, how would you describe your current purpose with what you're doing? Fine truth. Love that. Question number four is, what is something that you used to value that you don't value anymore?

Privacy. Hmm. Why did I, I'm gonna go off piece first, and that's, that's a really interesting answer. Yeah. You didn't use to value privacy before. What made you start to value it, Lee? I realized that a lot of the things that I wanted to be private were because I was ashamed

of them. So I realized that a lot of, like, people will share anything and quickly I'll tell them please, I want to know. Sorry about like my father that kind of represents this thought. Like my father called me and asked me one day, like, if I was doing stand up again and he was like, so you're gonna make another special? And I was like, yeah, why? He was like, you gonna talk about me in it?

I was like, why, why? And he said, because you mean it hurts my feelings. And I was like, why, like, what, how am I mean? And he was like, you know, you put our business out there. Like you talk about family business. I talk about like his, you know, the kids that he's had that were a secret for many years and my sexuality and like,

and I'm like, one, you had all these kids, like you put, you made it public. Like you had children, like you made it public. You call it that, you call it put in our business out there because you're ashamed of it. My father, this is a man who will talk to any stranger who will listen in an iHop lobby about like his open heart surgery

and like any private personal, like talk about his medical history with anybody will tell everyone his son has a television show and his home address and like, but this is private. It's like, no, this is shameful. Like this is something you haven't contended with. Like, just thinking about what privacy means, right? What I've found fascinating about there is how does your... I'm going totally, this is not a fast-fiving arm.

We get to the fifth one last, but how do you find that as someone who's had to go through their shame, go through that uncover it? How do you extend that same process to your father and mother and other people you meet? Because now you know how hard it is to do that. And when you see their resistance and reluctance to do it, how does that change how you feel about them with their shame? It's hard to be around, it's hard to be around.

And I realized that in some ways extreme and in some ways it's a luxury to be around. And I realized that in some ways extreme and in some ways it's a luxury to be able to like not talk to certain people and I like because they're kids who feel that way around their parents and I wouldn't suggest that they run away from home. You know what I mean? Like, like, but like, so there are people who have jobs and reasons that it is, they can't be fully truthful and I do respect that. But it's hard for me, again, the monster and the vet, if there's one thing that is hard to talk about,

then it's hard for me to talk about anything. And so right now is my family, my mother, my father come to terms with me being gay. It's difficult to talk to them because we can talk about everything else. You know, they watch my special and like to me, like the most, like the part that aches is the part of like me talking about coming out and my struggles to be with them. And that was the part on the first phone call and even still like they didn't even acknowledge they went like, oh, I know, I know you went through a lot carrying your father secrets and that type of thing,

but they didn't talk about that because they don't want to. And we can, and I could have a very pleasant relationship with them. And that would just feel excruciating to me right now, right now, and maybe I don't know if I'll become numb or become calloused, and I always pray that I don't become better. Yeah. But it's hard, it's hard to extend,

because you can't make everyone truthful or say the things that you want them to say. Of course, but I am, you know, trying to control the relationships I have based on my ability to be truthful with you. And I love that you're giving yourself the permission to do that because I think that is the step process towards the permission to do that because I think that is the step process towards whatever evolution it goes on. It's like when we don't give ourselves permission to be in the uncomfortable of like, well, I can't talk about this, so I can't talk about anything else. We're like, no, I don't want to be that because that makes me a bad person, right? A lot of, we have shame around that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, permission is a good, it's a great word. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, you just live in the cycle. It's easy. It's easy. Repeat repeat the pattern to stay in that jail. Yeah. And you feel a bitterness internally. Yes. Because you never freed yourself. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You stayed. Yeah. All right. Fifth and final question of the whole interview is if you could create one law

that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? I do believe that do one to others stands. I think that's probably the golden rule and whatever, but if that were somehow law, do one to others as you would have done until you, from seeing the divinity and people to being truthful with people, the things that you want, you know, I think you would give more, at least that, you know. Gerard Karmacko, everyone, I hope this is the first of many times we get to hang out. Yeah, we should start more.

I feel like I'm still like pockets that we got to. Yeah, I know. This is the first of many. This is the first of many. This is so really good. Yeah, this is so really good. And it's always nice getting to lay the land of someone's foundational thinking

and then get to learn more. But thank you so much for doing this. Any last messages, anything you want to share? No, no, no, no, that's been great. Everyone has been listening, watching back at home or whether you're in the car or whether you're at work, wherever you are. Make sure you share what you learn, what you took away,

any insights that resonated with you. I think for me, I'm being called to think about how I can be pulled to release any shame I have, how I can have more open conversations with my friends about any guilt that I'm holding on to, how I can use art to move towards my fears as opposed to away from them. I think a lot of us think of art as an escape from our fears when actually they can be an exploration as Gerard said today. So I thank Gerard for joining us there. Thank you all.

I hope you share this episode with someone who needs it, but thank you for listening, everyone. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. If you love this episode, you're going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussie on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships.

People should be compassionate to themselves, but extend that compassion to your future self. Because truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation

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Chocolate comes from the cacao tree. And recently, Variety's cacao, thought to have been lost centuries ago, were rediscovered in the Amazon. There is no chocolate on Earth like this. Now some chocolate makers are racing deep into the jungle to find the next game-changing chocolate, and I'm coming along. Okay, that was a very large crack it up.

Listen to obsessions while chocolate, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The one you feed explores how to build a fulfilling life admits the challenges we face. We share manageable steps to living with more joy and less fear through guidance on emotional resilience, transformational habits, and personal growth. I'm your host, Eric Zimmer, and I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app,

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