On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Justin McLeod ON: How To Fall In Love During Quarantine & Finding “The One” Perfect Partner

Episode Date: April 17, 2020

Justin McLeod created the dating app, Hinge. The developer shares his intent was to take online dating past swipe right or swipe left to a deeper and more authentic level. Fast forward to quarantine, McLeod believes that authentic online connection is more vital than ever. Listen in to hear Jay Shetty and McLeod talk about navigating the world of online dating, what Justin is doing to stay healthy during this time, and how the app inspired his own love story. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War II? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover, and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart,

Lewis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw, real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeart Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care. And I'm not saying that you should, you know, just like post, you know, a picture of yourself waking up first thing in the morning. I like, you know, everyone wants to put their best foot forward. And I'm certainly not like it's that. But I do think that there's an element of showing the cracks in your personality so that you feel more human and you actually have an end with someone, you actually have

something to comment on. Because like just posting six beautiful selfies, it's like not helping you. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, and I one help podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you. Thank you for taking out time to listen, learn and grow every single week. And I deeply appreciate the amount of incredible feedback we've been getting during this time, because you know that I've been trying to interview guests and give you insights that are supporting you through this tough time, whatever challenges you're going through. And I really appreciate you leaving the reviews and letting me know which episodes are serving you best and helping you the most. Now, today's episode is really interesting because we've talked about the medical background

of COVID-19 and the changes we can make in our life there. We've talked a lot about working from home and becoming more productive from our home work offices or whatever setup that you've created. And we've talked about, and we've talked with a therapist about our mental and emotional challenges right now. And today I'm fascinated to actually bring in a new element that we haven't discussed in relation to COVID-19. And that's really understanding relationships, understanding dating, and understanding the space that we all need in our lives, which is the space of love. Now today's guest knows a lot about that. His name is Justin McLeod.

He's the founder and CEO at Hinge, the dating app designed to be deleted. He grew up in Lewisville, KY, and studied at Colgate University. After a few years in management consulting, he attended Harvard Business School and decided to follow his passion for connecting people. Justin founded Hinge in February 2011 with a mission to create real life connections. As a romantic and the protagonist of a real life love story,

he was upset by the negative hookup culture dating absent created. So in October 2016, he relaunched hinge to create a culture of thoughtful dating. Justin's vision for a more thoughtful experience, resonated with millennials and led to the company's user base growing 400% in the last year. Welcome to the episode Justin. Justin, thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's great to have you here.

And I was just sharing with you before we started the podcast that I obviously never got to use online dating ever. The closest I got to was an app called a high five, which was pre-face work. But a lot of my friends use hinge. I've helped many friends build hinge profiles. And I've heard several good reviews about the apps. So first of all, I'd like to congratulate you on that. And I've also had so many friends reaching out to me

at this time and audience members and our community saying they need help with dating and connection at this time specifically, when they can't go out on a traditional day, they can't meet up with people, they can't go on those walks or dinners or whatever it may be. And so I think you're gonna be super useful to our community and audience today. Where are you right now, by the way?

I'm in upstate New York and that's Valley. Okay, nice. And you were just telling me earlier, you've got a crying baby upstairs, you know, and the kids do. Yeah, just one. It's a little seven month old. Oh, no way. What's his name? Oliver, Ali. That's awesome. Oh, no way. What's his name? Oliver, Ali. That's awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, I like seeing the toys in the background and everything. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, today we want to dive into everything from entrepreneurship

and your journey to your passion for connecting with people. And I'd love everyone who's listening today to get a bit of insight around dating at this time and maintaining relationships. I think there's a lot of people who not only are spending more time than ever together right now, there are also a lot of people who are spending more time apart than ever before as well. And I think not a lot of people are talking about that. There are a lot of people who are new relationships where they're socially distancing right now. So the first question I wanted to ask you was, I was listening to a podcast you did, and you said you used to believe in the idea of the one, but you currently do not.

What a thing, I'm fascinated about that, and tell us about that door process. I think I just learned through actually being in relationship that there's, I think there are many ones for us out there, but I think ultimately we create the one. You know, it takes work to create the one and to build that relationship and that takes work and vulnerability and all of those things that I think really build that relationship that we all long for and that I think so many of us believe that because we watched maybe too many romcoms that you just stumble into it.

You just stumble into an amazing relationship. You know, like 95% of a great relationship is just finding the person and then once you do, like, but then you just, you know, then it's all good from there. And, um, and dating apps probably help perpetuate that myth. And I actually think it's more like, uh, it's 20% the person and 80% the skills and effort in relationship building abilities that you have,

that actually craft to the relationship that you want want that people I think experience as the one. I think that's spawned advice that resonates so deeply with me and how long have you been with your wife for now. Well, it's a long story, but so in this current iteration of our relationship five years, a little over five years. Amazing. Yeah. But we go back 17 years. Oh, wow, that's incredible. Yeah, and so I love that advice that you share in because I think for so many people, you're spot on it.

It's like, I'm going to find the one, and then it's all going to go uphill and everything's going to be fine. And you're spot on it's totally the other way around. And I think that's why we struggle to find the one in that mindset because we're constantly looking for the perfect person, the perfect partner who's got everything perfect, which obviously is impossible to find.

And then we almost get surprised when we realize that they're not perfect. And then that's what works really got to happen and that's what we miss out on. So, or they reflect our imperfections back to us and that's equally scary. Yeah, exactly. Or even that one, I found myself doing this a lot, I was reflecting my parents relationship

in my relationship. So, it's like not only was, yeah, I reflecting my wife, my wife, her left me, but we asked for reflecting our parents and that just confuses the whole thing. So, I want to hear what's your favorite dating story, either yours or one that you've heard or one of your favorite stories about dating? We hear so many. We have people send us success stories and we read them every week at our rap and just heard amazing. And just heard an amazing one that really stuck with me,

actually, I'm thinking about it, was a woman in the UK who had lost, I think one or both of her legs in an accident and was really struggling to meet people and would hide the fact that she was, I, I would, didn't have, uh, both of her legs, I think, on her doting profile and it would meet people and then it would be awkward. And so she really ended up like celebrating it on her getting profile, which is I think it's such a big ethos of hinge, which is that bring your full self out there and

find someone who really wants the real you. Don't look for the validation of getting a lot of likes, look for sharing who you really are and then focus on the people that are really great for you. And she found someone on Hinge after she did that and was a success story and it was published in a magazine. That was I think like a one that really stuck with me just because it just told the story of vulnerability and helped show that. It's just what we live for at Hinge is helping people find those kinds of stories. I'm journalist and I'm Morton in my podcast, City of the Rails. I plunge into the dark world of America's railroads,

searching for my daughter Ruby, who ran off to hop train. I'm just like stuck on this train, not where I'm gonna end up, and I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters, living outside society, off the grid and on the edge. I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom of this community.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com. the rails.com. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the

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Gemma Speg, now streaming on the IHOT Radio app, Apple podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Debbie Brown, and my podcast, Deeply Well, is a soft place to land on your wellness journey. I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health around topics that are meant to expand

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Big love. Namaste. You start thinking about the infinite number of differences that humans have, whether it's physical, mental, emotional background, and it's so hard to be vulnerable in that way. How do you think that you've tried to engineer and create your app in such a way that allows people to naturally be their best, not their best self, but their real self and their vulnerable self and their genuine self so that people can connect in a real way and save themselves, that the games and the time and the energy and the effort that's

often wasted in trying to present your best self. Yeah, we, there's so many things. We say that hinges the app that's designed to be deleted because there's no simple gimmick about like, we, there's so many things we say that hinges the app that's designed to be deleted because there's no simple gimmick about like, oh, we just do this one thing and then, you know, that makes our app different. Some of the key ways, one is that we have these things called prompts, which are these short questions designed to help people get in the great conversations. And we've really engineered those over time and we've, you know, we started with just kind of our best guesses of what would work. And then we started to over time discover the science

of the sweet spot between what people are willing to answer and then what actually leads to a great conversation. And there's definitely kind of this efficiency frontier of vulnerability, you want to find one that is people are both willing to answer, but also people, you find that the ones that are the most vulnerable are the ones that where people are both cooling the answer, but also people, you find that the ones that are the most vulnerable are the ones that, where people aren't willing to answer them are the ones that actually lead to the best conversations if they are.

So it's kind of pushing people's edge, weeding out the ones that we know don't work like my go-to karaoke song, which everyone loves to answer, but leads to zero interesting conversations. And replacing them with things, like what I'm looking for in a plus one wedding date or some of the more popular ones that really get people to drop in and share what's important to them.

And, or tell us some more of those good examples. Like, because I think you're so right that the biggest struggle people have right now, and I hear this from friends and community people all the time, like everyone's saying, we're like, Jay,, and I hear this from friends and community people all the time. Like everyone's saying, I'm like, Jay, like, I want this staying out. I like this guy or this girl, and I'm matched with them, but I don't know how to start a conversation.

And I don't know what to say first, because I don't want to be the person saying, hey, how are you? Or, hey, are you stuck indoors too? Like, you know, there's like, literally. And so what, so tell us about some of those other questions that you have as prompts that help people start those great conversations.

And what is it about that question that you've understood through data and the stories to see that has the greatest impact on starting a really meaningful conversation, especially in isolation right now? Yeah, so a lot of them have been in the past. Well, it would have been, and I think we have my ideal virtual first date,

but my ideal first date, which also just helps get the momentum carried towards actually like meeting and or video chatting or whatever the case may be. Two truths in a lie, ones that are interactive really help as well, where you actually get that beginning of the conversation. And we actually just released photo prompts as well to help guide people to choose photos

that aren't just six selfies in a row, right? It's showing, you know, asking people to show different aspects of them, like my happy place and things like that, which, again, I think it's the conversation started. And the real magic, like, there's no, there's no, like, perfect opening line. If there were perfect opening line, then everyone would use it and would get magic, like there's no, there's no like perfect opening line. If there were perfect opening line, then everyone would use it and would get tired, right? So that's, it is no perfect opening line, but I think what is the way to approach someone,

especially on hinge, because we don't have the swipe left and right kind of dynamic. You actually choose something on their profile, either a prompt, the answer or a photo that they selected to engage with. So you comment on it. And so saying something specific that caught your eye about that photo, either a prompt, the answer, or a photo that they selected to engage with. So you comment on it. And so saying something specific that caught your eye about that photo or about that prompt,

that is how you're going to get a unique conversation going. And it's just, I mean, it sounds kind of kind of consensical, but it's just how you would interact with someone if you met them out. And you'd comment on something in context or something about them to dig up the conversation going, and it's really not different and on edge. I really like the question, actually,

that you mentioned of, you know, what would be your ideal first date? Because, you know, in psychology, that's forward pacing, and like you said, it's putting people in the mindset of that they're already thinking in that direction. And so you're already creating it in your imagination and in your conversation,

which means that it's more likely to happen in reality. And so I think that's a great question. And I think any questions like that, that spur action or connection or coming together are positive connections, especially right now when all you have is your imagination for a first date as well. I don't know if you saw this video. I interviewed someone on my Instagram live last week, his name is Jeremy Cohen, he made this video of falling in love during quarantine. So he saw a girl on a roof in New York City dancing and recording a TikTok video, so he put his number in a note on a drone and flew his drone over to a rooftop. And it's triggered like the best last story ever.

Like every person in the world wants to marry Jeremy Cohen right now. But it's triggered like the best love story ever. Like every person in the world wants to marry Jeremy Conner right now. But it's that innovation and that creativity and that openness to finding something new at this time. What kind of pressures are you seeing? Or I guess, how are you seeing people two parts this question? What are the first pressures that you're seeing on dating

and people starting a relationship at this time? And second of all, how are you seeing usage on the app change and a dating change at this time, especially through the use of an app like yours? Yeah, it's definitely changing because right now, people can't meet up in person. So I think it's re-causing people to change their mindsets of how they're using hinge. So video for states about as far as you can go. And I think that's actually really changing people's mindsets about the acceptability of video for stating. I think up until this point, people thought that was kind of weird or kind of awkward. But now, you know, necessities and mother of invention, I think that people are kind of

like more open to the idea of video dating. And anecdotally, and many, many anecdotes, I've heard at this point, people really almost unequivocally like the experience. It's almost never as awkward as they think it's gonna be, it's great. And they're finding ways to do dates. Like I heard one where they had a video first date

and they instructed each other on cooking their respective favorite dishes. So I would like instruct you on how to cook my favorite dish and you instruct me how to cook your favorite dish and then you'd sit down and have them together. So people I think are getting really creative with how to continue to date during this epidemic. And it really seems like, I mean, the stories that I'm hearing people are, thank God, taking it seriously, the social distancing and not actually meeting up and using video updates.

So, that behavior is definitely changing. People are using hinge. We're definitely seeing the messaging is going up and people's willing to, like I said, to do video dates is going up and people's willing to, like I said, to do video dates is going up. And so, I mean, people are feeling obviously alone, especially single people are feeling like really alone right now. And so that's why I think they're reaching out to platforms like Hintra, they can really connect with people. Yeah, I love what you pointed out there, because I think a lot of people forget or they place

themselves in fear that their first day or any day for that matter has to be like staring someone in the face and having a conversation about life. And when you kind of think about like that, you're like, well, that's pretty tough. Like, when do you do that with anyone? You know, how often do you do that? Or how much would you do that with a complete stranger? And I love the example you gave there, because what we're really searching for is shared experiences.

What we're really looking for is an opportunity to have an experience with someone else. So whether you're cooking each other, you're something, or you're doing a workout together, or you're playing a game together. Like, I think that kind of stuff just drops the guard and helps everyone feel so much more comfortable and relaxed because you're not seeing each other in a real environment. I know for me and my wife when we first started

dating and we used to love going and doing activities and experiences together. So we would go and do this, you know, like outdoor assault courses, which are like 80 feet up in the air and it would be so great for us both to like, there were certain things that I'd find more scary and she'd find more scary and really help each other through those. And you start to notice personality traits in a much more natural organic way rather than asking someone, oh, what are you like?

Like how do you describe it? Yeah, so it feels like an interview process or something. Yeah, exactly. We all know that interviews, you know, I feel like dating and interviews don't work in that format because you say what you think the other person wants to hear or you're trying to make something up whereas yeah when I love the example you gave it like if you cook

in each other's favorite meal and you're guiding each other through you kind of learn what that person's like in real life. Exactly. Just like when you start working with someone you actually find out very quickly whether the type of person that you want to die or so I think it's yeah I think it's the end absolutely the same. Yeah that's really cool and I love hearing that I'm glad, well, I said, the type of person that you want to die. So I think it's, yeah, I think it's the absolutely the same. Yeah, that's really cool. I love hearing that. I'm glad that more people are using the app and are more that, I'm glad that more people are trying

to seek for meaningful connection this time as well. I guess, where, how, tell us about that inspiration behind the app that you had in terms of people seeking meaningful connection and you thinking that apps were letting people down like Where did you because was it because you have this incredible love life that you're inspired by love? Or was it the opposite like you were struggling with love and and that's kind of what led you to this one led you to this idea Well, I think there are multiple layers of that on the one hand definitely so when Kate and I so five years ago,

I'd started hinge back in 2011, and I'd originally built it as just another, just like the other apps, or it was kind of like swiping people left and right. And because it was predicated on this belief that you just had to find the right person. So if you just went through enough people, you'd eventually hit on the right person and you'd do that.

And then actually being in a relationship with Kate, I realized that it's so like it's, that's when I sort of migrated from that belief that, you know, from about, you just find the one to you make the one. And then I really wanted to tear hinge down and rebuild it to help people become a little bit more vulnerable and to slow down and to really help make their own one. So, that was kind of the initial inspiration. And that's why I think the app really does feel more connected and it's why it is the fastest growing because I think people are really, really creating that. And then, as that became our mission, I widened my lens and widened my scope as I looked around and saw so many apps. And now just like forget dating apps, just so-called social media apps that are not designed to make us feel connected and have a sense of belonging in a sense of community.

They're designed to essentially keep us glued at their apps, staring at more ads. And I just think that there's needs to be much more awareness around the phenomenon of digital addiction and digital wellness and appropriate boundaries for using of these services because I haven't heard anyone say, you know, I'm then isolated, but thank God I have Instagram. Like no one is, that's not making people feel more connected. That's a service that feeds on our vulnerability of needing to have validation.

And it doesn't actually make us feel more connected that I think other apps like Simply Zoom and FaceTime are really incredible technologies that allow us to continue to have relationships. And so I think people are starting to really feel the difference between what it's like to have a interactive seeing and being seen moment with someone versus a validation. Let me put up a filtered version of myself and get a lot of feedback on that. So that's kind of the larger lens of design to be deleted and thoughts about digital wellness. Yeah, you gave a really good example there where you, you know, earlier you were talking

about how instead of someone just to put in the comments you're making about other social media platforms where we are just trying to get validation or trying to get likes or followers or get that kind of positive sentiment response to feel better about ourselves. And you spoke about earlier about how within you have, you know, you don't want people to just post six selfies. You want them to show different parts of themselves whether it's the happy place, et cetera. What are the other ways in which you're encouraging people,

or how can people think about this, and what practical tips can you share with them, so that they feel that they're able to improve their success on a dating app, right? Like what are what are what can people do? What are they getting wrong right now or when people have that kind of limiting belief of this isn't right for me? What have you done differently or what can you encourage them to do practically to to be more confident about that approach? Because it's natural for us to just want to post the pictures we think we look the best in Right, that's the next instinct that we've been conditioned for so many years Absolutely, and I'm not saying that you should, you know, just like post, you know, a picture of yourself waking up first thing in the morning I like you everyone wants to put their best foot forward and I'm certainly not against that

But I do think that there's an element of showing the cracks in your personality and in your, so that you don't, so that people have a, you feel more human and you actually have an end with someone, you actually have something to comment on. You guys like just posting six beautiful selfies, it's like not helping you.

Other ways that I think people can help themselves is exploring and following through on their matches. I think so many people at the moment of the first sign of friction within a conversation or whatever, they kind of just like move on to the like, they go back and try to find more people and more people, more people. And I think that that just leads to the sense of burnout and the sense that these are just kind of internet people. But the idea of really following through with your matches,

getting people a chance, letting, you know, I've heard of people who like, they're like every single conversation I'm going to let it get to like 20 messages before I make a decision no matter what. And those kinds of strategies really work because so many people that you maybe would have dropped off after three or four messages, you're like, yeah, whatever, I'll just move on to the next one. You have that discipline about moving on. That's why we have a, have in hinge something called your turn,

which just reminds people that the other person was the last person to send the message and it sort of stays persistent to remind you to send back the message to give people a lot of the cells to get themselves that shot. So that's another way that I think people can really slow down. On hinge, we limit the number of likes you can send per day. So you don't just get overwhelmed with like match after match after match, your thoughtful about who you

want to see. Our algorithm is designed in a way that we really only show you people that you have a chance with. We don't try to show you just like lots of hot people that just get you excited and get you swiping more. But so there's just, there's like I said, designed to be deleted. There's a lot of ways that I think we design the app so that you will take these slower, more thoughtful approaches. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I like those ways because I think online dating does require some discipline, like that commitment of going back and forth on messaging whenever

I view someone in the process of a conversation and I'm like, God, that guy's like message you like seven times, have you not replied? You know, it's like, and I'm trying to figure out why people in my life friends that I know are not replying like, what's blocking them? And half the time it's like they don't feel they're interesting or they don't think they're interesting over the message or they feel like there are anything interesting to connect with, but if you're prompting them with questions

and prompting them with ideas of things they can do, I think those are smart ways to get people in cards because I think that's half the battle. Half the battle is people feeling like they feel they're not going to be as interactive on message as they are in person. But right now we're all being forced to be, right now we're being forced to be our most interesting selves through digital,

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How have you been following me? But actually, you're probably doing a lot of interviews right now, not in person and on Zoom and on FaceTime. I don't know how you manage your team every day. How are you finding communicating digitally is different personally than communicating physically when you're when you're with someone? It's, I think one of the biggest things is you don't have the, we'll say like the dead time that you get when you're just hanging out with someone, you know, like it's like if there's a pause or it's like the end of the conversation, there's just kind of like, okay, well, okay, it's the end of the conversation. You don't just kind of like hang out, right?

So like you would on a walk or if you're out at a meal with someone. So certainly, I think there's that. There's this kind of pressure to like keep the dialogue going. So that's tough. You just don't get the full person context. I think that that is, that's what I'm finding. Like certainly with running hinge, we can still have video calls and have meetings and share documents and the collaboration tools are amazing And I will say that overall productivity. We're not really missing much of a beat yet, but

um It does feel in a way as a CEO like I'm flying a little bit blind like I really feed off the energy of the team and knowing You know who's feeling what and walking around the office and talking to people and not being able to do that is tough. We're trying to find ways. We're doing lots of things at hinge that we can adapt. Changing our slack status is, for example, to our emotional states versus our whether we're vacationing or sick or work from home, right? Because that's not even, those don't even mean anything anymore. So we changed them to like happy, lonely, stressed, so that we can actually, if I can't see you walking on the office, like pulling out your hair, I can at least see like a little emoji with the head exploding and I know I'm checking on someone because they're stressed.

So there's things like that. There's end finding ways to have the more social connection during the day. I think that's another really, really important thing. We actually just launched something called the Warm Up on Monday mornings, where at 9.30 everyone checks in on Zoom. We do a short meditation and then we, I don't know, maybe people don't know this,

but Zoom has this thing called breakout room. So it's just really cool. You can have. If you have 40 people in a Zoom call, you can break them out into groups of two or three or four and then come back together as a group and so we'll get them prompts about how are you really doing, giving them a chance to talk about things that are just not their daily work so they can really connect as humans with one another. Those are great tips. I know a lot about audience is having a ship from work from home, and many have their own businesses. Anyway, and many of them work inside huge organizations, and many of them just, you know, flexible lives. And I think you're so right that the tools,

tools are great, but it's good to have these habits kind of that you've set up, like, your 9.30m calls, or I love the one I'm having the emoji to represent how you're feeling that day, because I think that's so true, like when you're working in the same space as someone, you can see someone's mood on their face. So I think you're sort of mad. How's it been for you? Like, you've obviously got a seven-month-old son who's in the new world, you know, you and your partner, you're living in the same home right now. How many of you are in the same home? Is it just three of you or is it more? There's more.

Well, so we are, I'm wearing upstate New York. And we're, but usually we're not. So we live in Brooklyn. So we got a house in upstate. So that's where we are right now. And we've got, yeah, it's Kate and Ollie and myself. And we actually brought our child care person because it was just too hard to commute and to deal with.

Yeah. How are you finding it as a couple living home with a young child? Like, what are you doing? As a couple, what are you doing as a family to help kind of get through this time? Because I think a lot of parents are finding it difficult obviously for obvious reasons in this time and being with their kids already obviously a lot older than older than yours as well but also couples that spending a lot more time together as well so what what have you kind of found in in the real-life home situation that's helped your relationship right now while that you're using as a as skill. Yeah, building some normalcy and boundaries,

I think is really important for us, like knowing when to put work away and when work is on, is really important. So we have a routine where we just get up in the morning. We do a yoga class together. We go for a walk with Olli. We're like down to the Hudson River and back every morning. So we have that like morning commute moment. And then we sort of cook breakfast, listen to the daily, that's all

the news I want to know. And then we go to work for the day, and then we close that at the end of the day and take another walk, it's sort of our evening commute. And then we actually just hanging out with each other for the rest of the night. And, um, but listen, I've got it super easy. We're really, really lucky to have someone here with us who can help with Oli. I can tell you that my, um, I work with a lot of people, my fellow leaders and team who's, who's still in the city and they don't, uh, with people committing back and forth every day. And that is a whole other league of being able to do double parent duty with one or two kids alone while also trying to work. And it's really, really hard. And I don't, I think people are just having

a step back a little bit from their work duties, which is totally fine. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think what you shared is true, regardless of situation, of just having some sort of rhythm and routine in the day, of having a change of environment, whether that's visual, if you can go outdoors, or even if it's internal, and just shifting up the environment in your home,

it's so useful to just feel that movement, to feel that routine throughout the day, changing it up, because otherwise, you can feel that you're in the same room for the whole day. And that, I feel, brings its own strain on a relationship. So one thing I've been recommending to a lot of people, maybe, is if you're used to not working with your partner and not being in the same room all day, it's okay to have space during the day.

It's okay to be in your own work zones or work corners or work desks, whatever it is that works for you. You don't have to sit on the same couch and do every... Oh, definitely not. Right. You're a compressed lunch and did a... I'm working movie on that same couch every day together. Yeah.

That's not healthy for any relationship. So don't feel pressure that now we have to spend all our time together. I think it's okay to recognize, like you said, we have our community, we have this feeling, we have this experience, some of it together, some of it not. I think that's really healthy to recognize. And same with what you said, that if work or something has to take a back seat while you're shifting and adjusting or whatever it is, because right now such a, you know, it's something that's affecting absolutely anyone and everyone, it's so important to make those adjustments, not judge yourself and kind of carry that guilt. I think a lot of people right now are feeling

guilty for not being the perfect partner or the perfect parent right now. No, I don't think anyone can be the perfect anything right now. Yeah, I think I've got a lot of self-compassion. You mentioned meditation there. Tell me about your journey with mindfulness and meditation. Is there a big part of your life? Is it something that, how long have you been interested in it? And yeah, I'd love to explore that. For 15 years now, I guess. So, started for me when actually going through when actually going through drug and alcohol rehab

and 12 step programs, that was kind of my introduction to mindfulness and to a different way of looking at the world that eventually led to yoga and yoga teacher training and going off and doing 10-day of a passinas. And so I've been on that journey. I do find that just like ultimately what matters is the consistency of the practice, even if it's only five minutes in the morning.

It is really important. That's kind of, my journey's evolved a lot of over time. I think the meditation, like the daily practices and those things are great. I don't do them every single day. I wish that I did. But also I've even found now where I am that I sometimes if I'm really good about the practices, my daily journaling and meditation and yoga

every morning, those can also be, it also becomes like a distraction, like a checkbox thing. You know, it's just like, oh, I checked off the three things and then it becomes its own like goal-oriented obsession about like doing it and then I'm just I'm taken out of myself just as much as I would be. So I it's it's I do those practices, but really the practice is always being in the practice. The practice is is taking a breath throughout the day, noticing when I'm getting agitated or when I'm going into my head or I'm spinning out and then like coming back down, being aware of my breath, being aware of how I'm reacting to Cate and to Ollie and to all that stuff. And I'll tell you that like having a seven month old is like the ultimate meditation because you're, you just, it can be, right? If you really pay attention to this little person or telling you so much all the time and you're following their energy and they want to go over here, so you follow them over there and you can just kind of, that becomes a toll like meditation, dance, practice in itself, basically.

Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. No, I couldn't agree with you more. It's it's hard when the one practice that's meant to be freeing becomes your prison, like it becomes the thing that's like, you know, you become imprisoned to almost have that habit and the routine and the timeliness and and it needs to be giving you that freedom and this spontaneity and the expression and the growth and so yeah. Yeah, you start to get an ego about it And then you've got to create all this rigidity about it and then it's and then it's and then you've totally lost the So they like wearing it like you know just being a little bit loose with it And I'm getting myself an opportunity in following my energy in the morning

And I don't want to do it every morning and Sometimes I just want to have a cup of coffee and do dive right into work sometimes. It's finding that it's helpful to have the routines and default to them, but also not become religious about them. Yeah, for sure. You said you've encouraged your team to do as well. Is this something that the company does every single day or multiple times per week? How's that helped people in the company right

now and before as well? Yeah, we're finding our rhythm with how to do it right now. Like I said, we just instituted this Monday morning warm-up where it's a meditation and then a sort of personal checking with each other. We're offering a digital yoga class to everyone tomorrow for the first time, and we're going to see how the digital yoga class experience goes. And we're just experimenting. We're just seeing what works. And what's interesting, I think, is that it'll be,

it's moments like this where everything changes in our context totally changes, takes up our thinking in a way that will be interesting to see what persists beyond, even when we return back to our working lives. I'm excited to see the warm up, for example, that we do in the morning. It sounds like on Monday mornings, I think, it should just become a thing that we do. Why were we doing that before? I think it's definitely changed my relationship with my belief and work from home.

Like I am realizing that you don't want to be doing it five days a week for six months at a time, but certainly like a couple days a week really, it can make sense for people. So it's just changing a lot about how we're thinking about business and I'm sure how a lot about how we're thinking about business. And I'm sure how a lot of people are thinking about business. Yeah, speaking about that, I want to ask you about this. As an entrepreneur and founder of an app,

you don't actually have social media or Slack or email on your phone, right? I guess that's right. Yeah, how did you make that decision and be? How have you stuck to that through the growth? Because I feel like that may have been an easier decision in the beginning, or was it, you know, it's, yeah, sometimes in the beginning, it feels like, oh yeah, we can do this,

but then as, you know, as your success has grown and I'm sure your life's like incredibly busy and you have a crazy schedule and how have you stuck to that decision and how useful as it being and what benefits have you gained from insanely useful? I don't think it was an ever easy time to do it. I don't think there's ever an easy time to do it, but it actually becomes now I don't even think about it. It's just my routine and how I do it and I don't even think about it. Like now it's just my routine and it's how I do it.

And I don't even think about it. But I just find that if I have Slack and email on my phone, I will get into check box, you know, reactive mode where it's just like, oh, respond to this and coming message, respond to that email. And like, and then that's just like all I do with my free time. And I don't step back and give myself room

to think bigger about strategy or allow those moments of thoughts to bubble up about just ideas or things that I want to do or longer term things. I have no space for that kind of thinking because I'm just like, what? Email did someone send me. I have never really been a social media person that's just never called to me,

but I certainly was like supremely addicted to Slack messages, right? Like, so like someone sent me a Slack is something going on. What do I need to catch up on? And I just so much rather do that in bulk once or twice a day. I'm like, in my email inbox, like once or twice a day if that, I'm like, in my email inbox, like once or twice a day, if that, I'm like,

I'm orbonging now. And, but I just don't, yeah, it just, it allows me to be in like proactive mode, waking up and journaling instead of waking up and reading the slack in the news is, like, just completely changes the trajectory of my entire day. And it puts me into like focusing on the important things and not the urgent things. Yeah, it sounds like a smart move. I literally didn't have a social media account until 2014.

And then obviously my life is very different now because my work exists on every platform and that's my world. So but I remember those days, wherever I didn't have that. And so now I've just trained myself to not wake up to my phone and not go sleep to my phone. And that's been a really useful, healthy, habit.

I remember when I first tried to build that habit, I would lock my devices in my car outside so that I couldn't have them before I went to sleep and when I got up in the morning, and at that time, now I wake up naturally and let my body wake me up. But before I used't have them before I went to sleep when I got up in the morning. And at that time, now I wake up naturally and let my body wake me up. And before I used to have, yeah, I ordered this time X alarm clock from Amazon and it would wake me up.

And I'm like, I'm just, you know, so right, like the clarity I feel, even now, if I'm traveling and sometimes I have my phone there, the clarity you feel not waking up and being reactive, being shocked into being awake, getting used to the moment you wake up, getting, you know, a thousand and twenty-three notifications, the moment you wake up, it's just much to process. So I can totally see why as a founder, it's a brilliant decision. And I'm glad that you're sharing that with the world because

hopefully it will help more founders and more CEOs allow themselves to recognize that it's not business critical to have it on their phone. It's really not. It just takes the moment to align people around what are the service level agreements around different forms of communication, right? And people know that email for me is a 24 hour kind of experience. And Slack is like a, you know, it could be four to six hours.

And if you really need me urgently, text me. And that's just the agreement that I have with the people that work with me. And, you know, actually, I don't get that many texts. You know, like, you know, like, I'm just not that important, but there's just not that many things that are like that urgent that can't wait a few hours

if someone needs me. Yeah. That's really fantastic. You say one of the most important skills when entrepreneurs resilience, and I feel like right now that's a skill that people really, really need, because everyone's resilience is being tested.

Tell me about a time when you feel your resilience was massively tested and you started to realize its value because what I often find with resilience is that it gets stronger when it's tested. It gets, you know, it proves how powerful we are and how much pain we can deal with and how much potential we have when we're put into tough situations

because otherwise you don't know how to do that. So tell me about something that brought that to you and why you placed resilience is the top quality of a non-depender or one of the most important ones. I mean, definitely managing the turnaround reboot in 2016 was really, really, really tough because it started off with having to let go half the company, which was already like, we weren't in a great spot and we just couldn't restart the company with 30 people around the table. So letting go of half the company was very tough.

And then, not only that, but I went to the team and I'm like, I believe there is an answer here. I don't know what it looks like. We're going to have to figure it out. And it took a while. And I will say that when it came June, so like six, seven months in to this reboot, and we still didn't really have an answer

of what this new dating app was going to look like, it just like the, with the team starting to feel anxious, I just felt like most of the people around the desert and everyone's like, where are we going? Like, what are we doing? Like, and that can be really, really hard and running up against, you know, the end of our funding and, and, you know, the existential threat hanging over your head, the like, this whole thing could fall apart. And I'd spent the

last at that point, seven years, or six, seven years working on this, and to watch it like, very nearly all crumble was just incredible, not of stress. And that is, I think, when those routines really do serve me, serve someone, it just helps widen context so that your ego doesn't become so identified with your project that it's all that exists. You know, like, because then it's like, I literally, if this, you know, I mean, literally feeling suicidal at points just because my company was not going to work out and the morning journaling the morning yoga reminding myself that I'm like a human with a body a physical breathing thing that gets Pleasure from just you know like breath and sensation and touch and

The journaling and just like getting all the thoughts out on my brain and the meditation and just like taking a moment like those kinds of things, those are like become a literal lifesaver I think in those moments. And so I think having routines and rituals during this during moments of high stress are and when the resilience is really called are like that is the key. Yeah, I think that's going to help a lot of people right now because I know a lot of people have let go of half of their teams or many employees and I know a lot of people who are in that position right now where they, you know, they feel that their business could completely not exist after this time or at least be very weak. And you know, it's not unnatural for people

to get really negative thoughts during that time and fall into depression and challenging habits. And so yeah, I think that's great advice and great insight around, you know, you're going to fall into a habit during this time. And it's your choice and your resilience that's going to push you towards a good set of habits and routines and practices as opposed to a negative habit that's going to pull you down. Because you're going to fall into a habit, we always do, right? It's like when things are tough, you are going to go to one of the other and it's finding that fight and finding that resilience in yourself to push yourself towards the positive habit that you know has long-term benefits. It's incredible to, sorry, Karin, Sorry, Karen, you're going to say something.

I don't want to. Well, I was just going to say, you know, I left out the, I think the best habit that I've learned the value of more recently, ironic for someone who has a connection app, but reaching out to people. I mean, I think that I always, and as a sort of founder and soul founder, was like, if I'm feeling bad, like, I will like go meditate and I will journal and I will do yoga.

But reaching out to someone, I think is something that so few of us do as like a stress reliever, but that is like the number one thing and having someone that you can reach out to. And again, that you don't have to look cool in front of, but that you can just be like, I'm going to this really hard thing and feeling awful and I don't need a solution.

I just need someone to listen. I have a men's group that I meet with every Monday night and that's just like a really great thing that I have in my life, or just like really drop in and check in about how you're really doing. And that's, I think that is like one of the best for teams that you can have during this.. And that's, I think that is like one of the best routines

that you can have during this. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I'm really glad that you highlighted that. So true, it's, you can become so stoic and just believe that you can deal with all your own issues and no one else can see them. And especially right now, I think they need to reach out. And like you said, someone that you don't need to impress

or you don't need to impress or you don't need to behave a certain way with someone that you can just like strip yourself and be honest and genuine and let go. I think that's, yeah, that's that's for real. That's definitely going to help so many people right now. And yeah, please, please take that advice. I think it's really, really easy to give that advice. It's hard to take it. And so, you know, I can hear, when I'm here, Justin, speak right now, it you know, I can hear, when I'm here just to speak right now, it's like, I can tell that there were times when you've avoided it. And as you said, yourself, but yeah, absolutely. And that's when those, even if you're really bad at it,

then then make it a daily habit until it becomes more natural. But I have a friend, Jared, who sends a, every morning, when he wakes up, he sends a message of gratitude to some random person in his network. And it just starts a conversation for that day that he can check in with someone and just tells them what he appreciates about them. But I just think it's like such an amazing, amazing thing. And he's one of the happiest, most connected, most people people I know in my entire life. And it's probably because of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that one. And who doesn't like being checked in with, or who doesn't like receiving a message of gratitude? and it's probably because of that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love that one. And who doesn't like being checked in with or who doesn't like receiving a massive gratitude, especially when there's a different touch? 99% of the people that reach out to us, and 99% of the people we reach out to,

is with a specific request, ask, or agenda. And when someone requests or asks or proposes something with zero agenda, it's so fresh. It's like, wow, like really? You just thought about me. That's it. That's like the best feeling when you know that that's, you know, when it's like, oh, we should do this partnership together or we should do this deal together or will you invest to all those conversations? That never feels, even if it works out successfully, that never feels as meaningful as so much as

best you get, hey, I was thinking like, yeah. And I appreciate this thing about you. You know, something that they love about you. So yeah, I love them. And that's really, really great work. Tell us about, I wanna go back to what you said in the beginning. Tell us about this 17 and five year relationship journey

with your partner right now. Oh man. Yeah. That's a whole story. We met in college. We met her first day of college, my first day of sophomore year. And I mean, this could be a very long story. But I had just gotten out of rehab. I was a crazy person back then.

And we met, and we were just like polar oscissites. I was like this crazy party kid and she was this like never been kissed like girlfriend Catholic school. But we just had this spark and we were kind of on and off through college because I was again, this is crazy party kid and wanted to have new experiences. And I just like wasn't ready to just like be with someone. And so we ended up breaking up at the end of college. And eight years went by before I saw her again. And during that interim time, I started hinge because four years in to that, I just thought, you know, I'm never going to find someone as great

as Kate, and I wanted like the one, right? I thought I like she was the one, and I let it, I screwed it up, and I'm never going to find the one. And so I started hinge, and four years later, I'm a metal version of hinge, I still hadn't the one, and I was inspired by a writer from the New York Times who wrote a profile on me who had a very parallel story to mine and she ended up with her person. She found him 20 years later and realized

there should have been a together and she's like, you can't make the same mistake. Like if she's not married yet and she was engaged to another guy living in Switzerland a couple of months before the wedding and I flew over and asked her to call for wedding and move back to America with me, which she did. So that was the, that's the very short version of that story. And it got turned into like a modern love episode on, you know,

it was a modern love column in New York Times and it got turned into an episode on the, on the Amazon series. And Dev Patel, Plasing, which is like the most surreal. Yeah, experience, yeah. It was a weird thing, but it's great. Yeah, that's awesome, man. Yeah, no, I think everyone loves hearing about a love story and it's great that we're trying to use technology to

have more meaningful connection and solve the challenges that are there and really glad that you're trying to make that happen. I think there are so many people out there who are deeply seeking love. What is your hope for people who approach an app like Hinge? How should one approach it because I think that's you know in at least in my world and when I'm advising and guiding people whether it's Personally or online or through the podcast. I find like our approach to whatever it is that we want whether it's love or success or whatever it may be is so Important sometimes even more than the action we're about to take. It's the intention and the approach that we have. What's the, I wouldn't say the right approach because I think there are multiple, but what's your recommended or suggested approach that you're

seeing people be more successful when it comes to online dating when they approach the app in a particular way? Yeah, there's a story that comes to mind when you say that, which I remember this study about these people, they were studying unlucky people versus lucky people. People who describe themselves as lucky and people who describe themselves unlucky and they did this study where they handed them a newspaper and they're supposed to count how many, do you know this? Do you know what I'm talking about? So it's to count how many photos are in the newspaper. And the unlucky people took on average, like 15 seconds to count how many, and the lucky people average like three seconds, and why was that? It was because like on the second page, it said in really big print, like there are this many photos you can stop reading now.

And you know, the people who are lucky are people who have that awareness, that spatial awareness of like, you know, they, they're not so narrowly focused on like, it has to be this way. Like, I have to find these photos and that's what I'm going to do and like, that's my world. And I think so many of us approach dating like, I have to find this type of person and it has to be like this and it's got to feel like this. And, and I want to meet them in this way. And we're going to, and it's like, and when you put everything into like that narrow box, you're setting yourself up for failure and I think when people approach it with a much more open mindset, with not clear definitions around what exactly they're looking for. Like for example, there's, you know,

this was in Christian Rutgers book, Data Chlism, but about data and online dating, but it talked about how people who set preferences, like set themselves up prepared, especially hard preferences around like whatever age, and ethnicity, or things like that, because almost always people end up with someone outside of those preferences,

if they give themselves that shot. And so that, I think that's the biggest thing is, is not thinking you know what you want or what you need going into it and allowing yourself to be open and to be surprised. I think that's the number one thing that allows people to be, to have a successful dating life.

Not only because I think it helps you find your person faster, but also because it allows you to treat every connection as a who knows what, you know, maybe a best friend, maybe a business connection, who knows, like if it's like that idea that like either this person is like the person I'm gonna marry or garbage, you know? Like that's like that is like not, like that's gonna lead to a really like lonely existence,

but if it's just, hey, this person, who knows where it could go? I think that that's another really good piece of it. Yeah, I love that because I think you're so right. We've write our story before we fall in love. You've already written your version, and then you're now trying to find the version that matches that version, and that's impossible, because you made this up as opposed to letting

yourself find someone and that creating its own story, whatever that looks like. And yeah, I can definitely see that there's so many parameters and barriers and boundaries around how to find the one or the right person. I'm glad we started with that. So, just, this has been great, man. It's been great talking to you today, and I'm really glad that we got to speak so much about your story, your journey, your insights. I think some of your advice is really useful today, whether it's for people in relationships, working from home, entrepreneurs,

and we end every episode with two little segments. One's called fill in the blanks, so we'll start with that. So I read a sentence and you fill in the blanks so you fill in the last word. So here here's the first of the five. The most important decision we make is. The person that we choose to spend the rest of our lives with. I agree. If you want a thriving relationship always. I'll show up with honesty. Only stay in a relationship with someone that loves you for who you are.

Lack of connection. Who you could be. Yeah, true. Don't date someone's potential. Lack of connection makes us creative validation. All great dates start with a an opening line. I mean it's just it's that first, every, every great journey starts with the first step. And I think that that's, that's true with dates as well.

Yeah. Awesome. So this is your final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So they're not. Okay. So you can go to one sentence, but no one, no, no more than that. So what is the one word though?

Am I fitting for one word or just one word? If you do one word, that's amazing. No one has ever done it. So if you want to do it, you are by all means welcome to do it. If you could create a law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Wow. I mean, I could just say love, right?

Yes, we know the way. I asked for a few last time. Yeah, yeah. It's the world. So I'm going to give you a good. I'm going to go ahead. Give me an example. But I'm giving you an example.

So I asked this to the best. And I know that's too expression. I'm going to let you share it. OK, OK, OK, OK. Sorry, the law that everyone in the world would have to follow. Everyone in the world would have to follow. What would that law be? And as law language like is possible in terms of,

you know, it needs to sound like a law. No one's a rat to that question or four. I would say, for me it would be, well, I get, okay, I can't go host a little bit. When arguing with someone, you have to state their case first. Nice, that's good. Yeah, that's a great answer. That's a great answer. I love it. Awesome. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. That's a great answer, I love it. Awesome, thank you for that, I appreciate it.

That's a very unique, we've never had that answer before. So that's great. Okay, awesome, second question. What have you been chasing in your life or had been chasing in your life that you no longer pursue? Other than validation. But that is the, I mean, that's the cle clear stance that comes from me, like the need for this more and more people to like like me and tell me I'm okay versus just feeling

that he didn't belong. Yeah. Great. What do you feel is the biggest misconception about your app? That we're just another, just another dating app. That we're just another thing because we approach it truly from a different perspective. I just can't tell you how different it is to have your top metric be. How many great dates are our users going on each week and do everything you can to increase that number versus growth, retention, engagement. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think the biggest question people always go like, oh, can you find real love on an app, right? It's like, can you really find a person that asked all the time? And you know, that's kind of a big question. And it's like, I don't think there's anywhere where you can't find love. Like to me, it's like, why not, right? It's like, if you ask me the question, why it's like, I don't think there's anywhere where you can't find love. Like to me, it's like, why not, right? It's like, if you're not in the question of why,

it's like, why not? There's so many random places that people connect and fall in love and find the person that they want to be. Yeah. So the answer is unequivocally yes. I mean, more people meet on apps than any other way now today. Yeah. It's the most popular way to meet.

And it's just the beginning of, it's the first point, oh, 1% of your relationship, you know, then it used the rest of the 99.99% is up to you. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Two last questions. What is the one thing you believe 100% when it comes to dating that others disagree with you on? That it's not the person, it's the skills. I mean, it's the relationship skills that you have.

I mean, that I think is the biggest, probably, I connockly classic view that I hold on to any relationships. Cool. And the fifth and final question, what was your biggest lesson learned from the last 12 months of your life? Hmm. lesson learned from the last 12 months of your life? The biggest lesson learned for me is really, I've learned, I'm still lessened, the skill that I've developed the most is how to be a coach, to help other people get to the right answers

versus try to get to the right answers myself. I think I'm, you know, as much more of like a critic and a debater and a pusher versus a coach and the value of coaching, which gets you to a better answer and makes people feel more inspired and happier. It doesn't drain their energy is just like the value of that is infinite. That's awesome. Amazing. Thank you so much Justin. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so glad that is infinite. That's awesome. Amazing. Thank you so much, Justin.

Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so glad that we could share parts of your story and insights with my audience today. And I hope that many of you will, if you're feeling like you need to connect and looking for a new way to connect and definitely check out Hinge. It's, I've definitely got a lot of friends using it.

I know a lot of staff using it, a lot of team members using it all across the world. So yeah, highly recommend it and check it out. And yeah, hopefully it will help you find love and find connection. And like Justin said, sometimes it's not love, but you find another form of connection or friendship or whatever it is. Yeah. Didn't expect and that's always always something not to underestimate, you know,

connection. Absolutely. Thanks, Justin. Did I not ask you anything? Did you really want to share or anything that's on your mind right now that you'd like to share with my audience? Well, the last thing that someone might just say, I mean, I know this is a special difficult tunnel.

People were late off or were late off, but hinge is hiring. So if you're in New York, definitely check out our jobs page. We have about 15 open rules right now. So, oh, amazing. Oh, tell us some of the rolls. Tell us some of the rolls. The whole gamut from engineers to product designers and product people to content moderators if you're just looking for a $20 an hour stay-for-mom job. So, there's there's a lot. Amazing. Okay, that's the great. Yeah, please, please, please, go check that out for anyone

looking for work. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that with our audience. I really appreciate it there. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Getting better with money is a great goal for 2023. But how are you going to make it happen? Ordering a book that lingers on your nightstand isn't going to do the trick. Instead, check out our podcast How to Money. That's right, we're two best buds offering all the helpful personal finance information you need without putting you to sleep.

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