On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Robert Waldinger: ON How To Nourish Your Meaningful Relationships & The Power Of Quiet

Episode Date: November 11, 2019

On this episode of On Purpose, I sat down with Robert Waldinger. Robert is a Harvard psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and Zen priest. He’s the director of the longest study on adult life and happiness. Robert reminds us that having a person you can call in the middle of the night when you are scared or sick is what keeps us happier and healthier. He shares that it takes vulnerability to have meaningful relationships, but the rewards are always worth the risk of rejection. Text Jay Shetty 310-997-4177See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I am Yom Le Van Zant and I'll be your host for The R Spot. Each week listeners will call me live to discuss their relationship issues. Nothing will tear a relationship down faster than two people with no vision. There's y'all are just floppin' around like fish out of water. Mommy, daddy, your ex, I'll be talking about those things and so much more. Check out the R-Spot on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, it's Debbie Brown, host of the Deeply Well Podcast where we hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your well-being journey.

Deeply well is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well with Debbie Brown is available now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Namaste. The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or

wherever you get your podcast. Take good care. My fascination was in what happens to people throughout their lives. What really happens to people? There's so much hype about what life is supposed to be like, right? I mean, just look at advertisements. And look at social media, and you would imagine that everybody's happy and on vacation,

and at parties all the time, getting to follow someone's life over 80 years is such a privilege. So we've been trying to build a deep relationship with each other. It started with these four minute videos and then you said, Jay, we need more of you. So we launched the podcast, which man, I was speaking to you for 30 minutes to an hour, every single week. We've got two amazing podcasts a week.

And then I'm thinking, well, how do we go a step further? And so I found out from my friends that there's this new, really cool new thing that I've been trying out. It's called a community phone number, which means that you can actually text me. I'm being serious. So here's my number. I want you to write it down.

Stop what you're doing right now and write this down. 310-997-4177. I'll say it again. 310-997-4177. You can text me right now. And the best thing about this is, I can send you real-time updates where I'm out, what I'm thinking about,

reflections I'm having, realizations, pictures, and isn't it true that with friends, you want to text them, right? You don't email your friends, you don't just post on Instagram and hope your friends see it, you text them when you want to share something. So I want to do that with all of you. So text me now 310-997-4177.

Hello everyone, welcome back to on purpose. Thank you so much for tuning in, whether you're listening or watching right now, I'm genuinely so grateful that you're taking out time and energy in your life to growth, to learn, to serve. I think it's an amazing commitment that you make every single week and I just want to take a moment to acknowledge that. I also want to say I'm so thankful that you're sharing the insights on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook. Trust me, I see them. I try and share as many of them as I can, but I love seeing that you're all gaining so many phenomenal messages from my interviews with incredible guests and the solo episodes I do every single Friday and I also read your reviews so your reviews mean so much to me

I'm always scanning and browsing through and noticing how much love and kindness there is there So thank you for allowing me to serve you in this way and today I'm really excited to introduce you to the guest. Today's guest is someone that I've followed for a very long time. I've quoted his research in multiple videos and in multiple coaching sessions that I've done. When I saw his name on this list,

where we currently are with the Arthur Blank Foundation in West Creek Ranch in Montana. When I saw his name, I said, I have to have him on the podcast because he's someone that I look up to so much. His TED Talk is one of the top 10 most viewed TED Talks of all time, which is phenomenal in and of itself, but he's also a psychiatrist, psychoanalyst,

and Zen priest. And I can't wait to hear more about that. He's a professor of psychiatry at the Harvard Medical School and directs the Harvard study of adult development, one of the longest-running studies of adult life ever done. And that's the one that I've quoted so many times. His name is Dr. Robert Waldinger. Robert, thank you so much for doing this. It's a pleasure. Yeah. Well, very grateful to have you here. As I said, I mean every word. I've definitely quoted and referenced your work so many times. I'd be sitting here with you as an

honor of mine and I really appreciate it. But I wanted to start with the first question about the study I just referred to, which you've dedicated so much of your life and work to. And I'd love for you to just introduce my audience to that study just to set us up of where it began and what it's really been resembling. Sure. So as you said, as far as we know, it's the longest study of adult life that's ever been done, meaning we started with a group of people in 1938 and we followed them through their entire lives. It started actually as two separate studies,

a study of Harvard College sophomores, and a study of boys from Boston's poorest neighborhoods. As far as the Harvard College boys, young men are concerned, they were 268 of them from the classes of 1939 to 1942. John Kennedy was a member of the study, Ben Bradley, who was editor of the Washington Post for so many years, for example,

when the Watergate scandal broke. And then mostly ordinary people who went to Harvard and then went on to lead interesting but usually pretty regular lives. The inner city boys, 456 of them, were selected because they were from really disadvantaged families and families with a lot of trouble. And they were selected with the question of,

why are these boys able to stay out of trouble? Why do they not get in trouble with the law and become juvenile delinquent? So it started out as a study of who avoids juvenile delinquentcy and why. And then these two groups of people were combined and studied together starting in the 1970s. But initially they were separate studies

that didn't even know about each other. Wow, so they actually started out of totally separate, measuring something completely different to what you ended up finding, and when did you get involved in the process? I got involved 15 years ago. Okay. I'm the fourth director and one of my heroes, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard,

was my predecessor and he took me out to lunch one day and said, how would you like to inherit the study of adult development? And I was dumbfounded and at first said, I don't know anything about aging because the men were pretty old by then. And I studied couples and he said, let's study aging couples. So the first thing we did together was to study

late life marriage and how it affects our health. And that was how I joined this study. Oh, that's fascinating. Oh, that's incredible. I'd love to explore a bit on your work with couples and research. If you don't mind as it's as a slight tangent, tell me about some of the most incredible things you found from studying marriage and how the effect that I'll well be. One of the things we found, which was the most surprising to me, was that arguing wasn't a problem in couples. We used to think that

if you argued a lot, that it was a bad relationship and it was going to break up, turns out that wasn't true, that many couples could argue a lot and be really tight and quite stable. And other couples didn't argue at all, but gradually broke up. When we videotaped couples having a disagreement, the thing that clearly predicted who was going to stay together five years down the road was how much affection they showed for each other. So they could be arguing and really mad at each other, but as long as you saw that bedrock of affection, those were stable couples. And the couples that didn't have much affection

were the couples that were in more trouble. And the couple that didn't have much affection were the couples that were in more trouble. And the couple that didn't have much affection were the couples that were in more trouble. This is what it sounds like inside the box card. I'm journalist and I'm Morton in my podcast, City of the Rails. I plunged into the dark world of America's railroads,

searching for my daughter Ruby, who ran off to hop train. I'm just like stuck on this train, not where I'm gonna end up, and I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters living outside society, off the grid, and on the edge. I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom this community. No one understands who we truly are.

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Or cityoftherails.com. I'm Eva Longoria. I'm Maite Gomez-Rajón. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast. Hungry for history. On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs,

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I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart. I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford University and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. On my new podcast, I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions so we can better understand our lives and our realities. Like, does time really run in slow motion when you're in a car accident? Or can we create new senses for humans? Or what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your

reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eagelman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wow, that's incredible. podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah. And I've seen that in other work as well where actually learning how to fight is such an important skill. Exactly.

When actually our biggest desire when it comes to arguments is thinking we have to run away or bury something or hide away and we try and avoid conflict. And I think conflict resolution or having tough conversations is such an important skill that we never get exposed to. Exactly. In fact, one of the big developmental tasks of a young couple is to learn how to handle disagreements. Right.

Because every couple is going to have disagreements. So how do we handle them? How do we get to a point where one person doesn't win and the other loses, but that you get to a point where you can emerge from a conflict stronger and certainly no weaker. And what we found was that actually the development of a couple relationship goes through a stage

of learning how to resolve conflicts. And then, ideally, you no longer need to do that. You've figured that out. And then, as you get older, the developmental task for older couples is learning how to support each other. Because if you think about it, as we get older, we really need each other more and more. Like we need to lean on each other physically, as well as emotionally, as difficult things happen in our lives as illness starts to happen.

So actually when we started studying our older couples, we asked them to have an argument on videotape, they couldn't think of things to argue about. And we thought, what's wrong with this picture? And then we realized, no, no, no, it's because they had already worked out how they were going to manage. That's why they lost it.

That's why they lasted. And what we found was that the real, real interesting point for our older couples was we, when we asked them, could you talk about your biggest worry with your partner? And to see how the partner supported them, that was a huge window on how the older couples were doing. Oh, that's incredible. What kind of things did they say were their biggest worries? Is that a... Well, sometimes really boring things like, I don't know what to make you for dinner. It's an eye-toney. And those were not the interesting conversations. The interesting conversations were, I'm afraid that if I die first, that you won't be

okay by yourself. Or I'm afraid that if you die first, I'll have to go to a nursing home. Or I'm afraid that when we die, our children won't handle their finances well. Really big issues that then they could talk about and often offer each other mutual support around. Well, and that must have been a powerful question for them to talk about because did you find that at that stage of development,

were they quite vulnerable with each other or were they still these pockets of not hiding anything, but just you just don't think to talk about it, you feel scared of sharing it. So, you're absolutely right in what you're suggesting, which is that couples varied a lot. Like, some couples could really be open with each other and get right down to basics and important issues. And other couples were pretty closed off.

Or sometimes one member of the couple could be very emotionally available and the other was pretty closed off. So it varied, but the healthiest couples were the ones who were really emotionally there for each other. Yeah, I've been saying around the argument point a lot. I've been repeating in a lot of forums that I've been in that

when you're arguing, remember that it's not you against each other, it's both of you against the problem. Absolutely. Because I've been saying that I'm very competitive and I like winning, I enjoy winning, and I have learned in my relationship with my wife that it's a lot more fun to win together, because in a relationship if you win and your partner loses, you both lose. Exactly. And if you partner wins and you lose, you both lose. So the only way to win is to win together.

Exactly. What have you seen and I'd love to understand from you, what are those developmental steps that people can take to actually argue better or manage disagreements better? Great question. So there are actually some good techniques, and so we find that many couples either go into couples therapy or there are some good books that couples can read that can help them. And there are strategies you can use. So for example, what you said about realizing that you're both trying to solve a problem, that it's not arguing with each other to see who wins and who loses, but how do we manage this problem? That once you make the problem, the enemy, if you

will, you're in much better shape. There are some simple language techniques. So, for example, making eye statements. So, instead of saying, when you said that, you were trying to make me mad or you hurt me, we say, you know, when you said that, I felt hurt. And this is what it felt like to me. It felt like you meant this. But then I'm not saying, I know what you were thinking. I know what you were trying to do. I'm saying, this is how I received it. And then I give you a chance to tell me what you meant. And then we can do some repair and we can do some getting to common ground. So there are a variety of techniques like that that are pretty easy to learn and that

can really help change those awful conversations to one where you both end up feeling closer. Yeah. And I love that switch that you're making from you to I language because I think when we are saying you, you, you, you, you, we end up making these like permanent statements based on a temporary event. Yes. And we start making these big accusations rather than articulating how we feel.

And we express the anger rather than explain it. And when people don't feel like you're explaining something, and we expect the other person to read our mind and just know what we've been thinking about, it becomes very hard and so much gets lost in that I feel. So I love that switch. I think that's really, really powerful and practical for people. The other thing you just pointed out was this tendency we have to say, you always do this. Yeah, or you never do this. And you always, and you never are terrible statements

because nobody always does anything or it never does anything. And so if we can stay with what are we just disagreeing about right now? You didn't take out the trash when I asked you to. Let's just talk about that. Not you never help around the house. Right. That's right. Adversed. Yeah. Definitely. I love that. I hope you guys are taking notes. If you're listening or watching right now, those are three really practical steps and tips

that I'd love for you to test out this week, experiment with, you're naturally gonna have an argument and just put it in there, just start throwing these things in because you'll start to see how much they can benefit you. And one of the big things while we move forward from this argument point that I've been encouraging people is that you don't prepare for an argument in the argument.

So a lot of people say, oh, but, Jay, when we're fighting, I can't think of this stuff. I can't remember. And I say exactly like the sports player or the athlete doesn't prepare on World Cup game day or the match day. They're preparing beforehand. So what I say to people is when your relationship is feeling strong, when you're having a good time, use that time to discuss how you'd like to deal with disagreements. Because that's this time when you're steady, that's the time when you're in the right sense of mind and state of mind. And you can make decisions for, look, I know

we may argue about this, and I'd love for us to communicate in this way. And if you prepare for that beforehand, you're more likely to remember that. That's just my intuition and instinct on it. But it's a great intuition. And to that point, one of the things people should feel free to do is take a time out. Yes. So as you say, you know, I can't think of what I want to think of right now to say. And sometimes it's just going in a bad direction. And that's the time when you should be able, both of you to say, look, let's take a time out. It's just not feeling good right now. Let's come back to this and then really come back to it.

Like one of the maxims that I like sometimes is strike while the iron is cold. That when things are really hot, that's often when you say things you regret when you can't think of the right things Or you can't say it as you mean to and if you can take a time out go away. It's okay How do I really want to explain this then you come back and you can you can say more of what you want to say in the tone That you want to say it in and and do more constructive

Building of the relationship again. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. I'm really glad we got to address that together. And now back to the 75 year study. No, I'm glad I'm really happy. I'm really happy. We got to go in that direction. I think it's a really positive and powerful conversation. I'm very practical. But when we look at this 75 year study, what were your biggest fascinations when you got involved with it? And then tell us a bit about the things that you found, the surprising things, and the things that you think are so important for us. In the 1680s, a feisty opera singer burned down a nunnery and stole away with her secret lover. In 1810, a pirate queen negotiated her cruiseway to total freedom with all their loot.

During World War II, a flirtatious gambling double agent helped keep D-Day a secret from the Germans. What are these stories having common? They're all about real women who were left out of your history books. If you're tired of missing out, check out the Womanica podcast, a daily women's history podcast highlighting women you may not have heard of, but definitely should know about. I'm your host, Jenny Kaplan, and for me, diving into these stories is the best part of my day. I learned something new about women from around the world

and leave feeling amazed, inspired, and sometimes shocked. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Debbie Brown, and my podcast, Deeply Well, is a soft place to land on your wellness journey. I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health

around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your journey From guided meditations to deep conversations with some of the world's most gifted experts in self-care trauma psychology spirituality astrology and even intimacy here is where you'll pick up the tools to live as your highest self make better choices the tools to live as your highest self. Make better choices. Heal and have more joy. My work is rooted in advanced meditation, metaphysics, spiritual psychology, energy healing, and trauma-informed practices.

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Big love, namaste. I'm Jay Shetty, and on my podcast on purpose, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Big love. Namaste. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant.

The results don't really matter. It's the figuring out that matters. Kevin Hawke is not about us as a generation at this point. It's about us trying our best to create change. Lumin's Hamilton, that's for me, been taking that moment for yourself each day, being kind to yourself, because I think for a long time,

I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity to learn. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw, real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on-purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. My fascination was in what happens to people throughout their lives. What really happens to people? Not what do we remember because we often tell ourselves stories trying to remember back to what happened in our lives. And also not what do we think ought to happen. But what's life really like for people? There's so much hype about what life is supposed to be like, right? I mean, look at just look at advertisements and look at social media. And you would imagine that everybody's happy and on vacation and at parties all the time. But what's life really like? And so getting to look at that, But what's life really like? And so getting to look at that, getting to follow someone's life over 80 years is such

a privilege. So I thought, this is like the most amazing work I could possibly do. So that's why I wanted to do it. And then some of the things we found were things that were expectable, but really important messages to get out there. So for example, we find that smoking is really bad for your health and your longevity and that tobacco kills, okay?

We are just one more study to remind us of what we know. Alcoholism is a terrible problem, and so people who get into trouble with alcoholism really need help and support in getting treatment for that drug abuse as well. Exercise, regular exercise really does keep people healthier and allow them to live longer. So again, these are not surprises, but to say that there's more and more science behind this is helpful for some people. 100% yes.

And then the surprise for me, and I think for many of us, was the finding that people who aged better, people who stayed healthier as they got older, people who lived longer, were people who had warmer, closer relationships and people who were more socially connected to others, that initially when we started finding that in our data, we didn't believe it. Because we said, well, wait, how could like a bunch of social relationships? How could that make you live longer? What happened was that other studies, other research groups began to find the same thing,

and that helped us believe it. And now what we're studying is, how does that happen? How could the warmth of your relationships, how could your relationship with your wife actually make a difference in whether you develop coronary artery disease or arthritis or diabetes. How could that possibly happen? We're learning about that now in our research. So that's one of the cool things I get to study now.

Yeah, absolutely. And tell me about how you were able to deeply define social connection and what that warmth was because I think also that we can all project our own beliefs onto what that's the minute, but I'd love to hear it from your side of actually doing the research like what was categorized as warmth and what was categorized as you know meaningful social connection to have that result. Yes, okay. So there are a bunch of different ways to think about social connection. One is literally how many people do you see in a given day or a given week. And that's also important.

So people who see more people tend to live longer and healthier compared with people who are more socially isolated. And is that C1 to 1 or do you mean even in the workplace? Even in the workplace. Now sometimes they're called weak ties. And what that means is people we are connected with, but not that connected. So I might see someone at work and we have a kind of friendly exchange. How is your weekend?

And it turns out that that's health promoting, as long as they're decent exchanges, as long as we're not snarling at each other, right? It turns out that that is health promoting. Okay. But then in addition, what you talked about, the warmth of connection turns out to be really important. So we're not going to have the closest, warmest connections with everybody we see during the day, but a few people, if we're lucky, will be people who we feel like we could call on, as we asked our participants, who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared? If we have some people in our lives, like that, then those are the connections that really help keep us healthy. So there are people

who offer us physical support, instant, you know what we call instrumental support. They'll drive us to the doctor when we need it. They'll come over and hold our hand when we're throwing up emotional support. So when I have a really awful day and i'm feeling terrible about my life and my work i can talk to somebody and they will help calm me down and help me put an perspective and literally i can feel my body calm down when that kind of conversation happens amazing and often often it's your romantic partner but you don't have to have a romantic partner to have this kind of relationship. You can have close friends. It could be a sibling. It could be a parent. But having at least one or two of those relationships in the world is really important for our health

and well-being. And whether any indicators that suggested how to build those or how these people were able to achieve that with people. Because I think today what we find is there's this struggle of like even being able to be expressive about our intentions with people or like I have a very open way of behaving. So if I like someone, I'll reach out to them. After reaching out to them once we've met, I'll be really clear about where I see this going as a friend and I've literally said to people that I'm very good friends with now that, hey, I think we are going to get along for life and I have this intention that we should be friends. And sometimes it seems like the weirdest thing to say. But now they thank me like

a year later or two years later and they're like, yeah, you said this to me and it's actually happened. And I'm like, because I thought that that's what it was. And there will be people that I won't see again. And so I'm just very clear about my intentions. And that helps me a clarify to other people what I want, but that can feel scary sometimes. What have you seen as good ways in which people can create those meaningful bonds? Because I think that's where we all struggle today. I think today the challenge is we're surrounded by people, but we still feel lonely. We're constantly having small talk, but not deep talk. We're constantly completely filled up with friends and followers, but no one to call at that time. So what does it take to get there?

Did you find anything around that? Yes. So it takes some degree of vulnerability, meaning, I'm going to risk a little bit. And the risk is you might reject me or you might turn away, right? So when you said to someone, I think we get along really well. And my intention is to be your friend. I was at the weirdest thing in the world. Oh, no, it's not weird at all. I've got good friends now because of it. It's not weird at all, but you made yourself vulnerable. Because what if someone turns and said, nah, Jay, I don't think so, really? Nah. I don't feel it so much. That would hurt a little, right? So you're willing to put yourself out

there. Now, not everybody is going to feel comfortable doing that. Yes, I agree. What I notice is it might be, so some guys are just used to playing basketball together, or, you know, playing golf together, or just watching a game on television together. Even asking another guy to hang out could be making yourself vulnerable. Like you can feel like, oh, guys don't do that. Like, if I don't want to happen to run into you or if our wives don't arrange it, I'm not going to do it. So my level of vulnerability might just be saying to my friend, would you get together

with me on Saturday afternoon? Right. That's a big deal. Yes. Like, I would love it if my intention, if I could say, my intention is that we're going to be lifelong friends. And I think I'm trying to get more to that place. But I think we, each person has to start where they are. And so I would say, if I were to recommend it, find out where you could be a little bit

vulnerable with somebody and take that risk, whatever that might be in trying to make and keep a connection. Yes. The other thing is, we've found that relationships are like, it's almost like physical fitness. Like you can't just say, well, we become friends so we're done now. Sure. Like, I went to the gym, so I'm done now. I don't have to go again, ever. No, I have to call you up and make sure

that not too much time goes by before we talk, before we get together to hang out, right? I've had to learn that in my own life, and so I do it more with my friends because otherwise good relationships will just wither away. Yes. And nobody means for that to happen. So relationships will require maintenance. Yes, absolutely. And one of the ways that I've done that practically for myself is I know in my mind that there are some people that I want to message every week. There are some people that I message once a month and there are some people that I want to message every week. There are some people that I message once a month.

And there are some people that I speak to every week. And there are some people that I speak to every month. And just being able to create degrees in our life of connection has really helped me because it allows me to understand that this is the level of relationship I have with this person. And what that does is it becomes more honest because I think we'd like to think that everyone in our life is either a best friend or not a friend. Like we like to have this very clear black and white. But life isn't like that. There's so many more degrees of grey and so many more shades of grey. And so for me, it's far more practical to say, look, these are people that are my closest friends.

The people I talk to every day, the people I talked about everything. But then there are people in my life that I love seeing once a month, because they're the people I watch a movie with or they're the people that I go out for dinner with. And then there are people that I see once a year, but they're amazing too, because we've gone this great holiday. Or whatever it may be.

And just knowing that you can have friends for different purposes and different roles in your life, rather than trying to put everyone into one or two, which becomes hard pressure for them and for yourself. Yes, yes. That's a really important point. put everyone into one or two, which becomes hard pressure for them and for yourself. Yes. Yes. That's a really important point. The other thing is that people can move in and out of your life.

It's not a problem if some relationships do fade away because sometimes we're only together because we got brought together by this other thing like we went to college together or something else happened. And it's okay that relationships don't keep up, as long as we keep up some of our relationships. But I think you're absolutely right that we can also have different degrees of closeness and different degrees of involvement and that there's everything right with that, not that there's something wrong with that. Yeah, amazing.

And I wanted to move forward into this. You actually went on a three week silent retreat. Is that correct? Tell me about what prompted that when that was and what you gained from that. And why it all came about. So I, um, I'm a Zen practitioner. I meditate every day. How long have you been doing that? And let's talk about that.

Actually, how did you become a Zen practitioner? And how did that become such a big part of your life? I became a Zen practitioner by accident 13 years ago. My son at that time was in middle school and his friend was having a coming of age ceremony at a unitarian church. And I went and I sat next to the mom of my son's friend and she knew I was interested in meditation. I dabbled a little. She pointed to the minister, conducting the ceremony and

said, he's a Zen master. So I called him up and said, could I come talk to you? And he was this wonderful, down-to-earth teacherth teacher and he said come sit with our group So I started sitting regularly with a meditation group never done that before and and Studying with this teacher and what I found was that once I sat regularly with a group and once I had a teacher I could meditate at home whereas before I couldn't have a regular practice. And then I started going to meditation retreats, silent retreats for a few days, and then maybe a week. And then I graduated to a three week silent retreat. That's the retreat

you're talking about. And tell me about that retreat and what you learn from and what you gain from those three weeks of silence. Oh well, I learned that my mind is a really difficult place to go into alone. My mind is really, yeah, like so much stuff comes up when you are watching your mind. And the good thing was that I was with people who could help me understand what was happening, who could help me accept the humaneness of having a busy mind and a mind that made me crazy sometimes and a mind that made me anxious. And that what this work was of being on a silent retreat was learning about my humaneness and all the ordinary stuff that comes up in a mind that That I came to accept more and more and gradually even welcome. It's like I would like chocolate say, oh, yeah, here it is again You know this feeling of I'm worthless or this feeling of I've done everything wrong in my life or

or this feeling of, I've done everything wrong in my life, or, you know, and then I could understand that these are feelings that come and go, and that they're very natural, and that the more I accepted my own mind and accepted myself, the more at ease I became with everybody and everything in life. So this three-week work, which was like one of the hardest things I'd ever done, was undoubtedly one of the most valuable things I'd ever done. And what allowed you to push through that barrier because I remember the first time I ever did a salad meditation when I became a monk, one of the hardest things I believe is just getting past the initial barrier.

Yes. Well, all you're hearing is noise and it it's all consuming, and you're just like, wow, like there is a lot of noise in my mind. This is going on and on and on, and where's this gonna stop? And then usually that's where we give up. Yes, because it's just so frustrating and overwhelming. What allowed you to break through,

and how would you encourage other people to have that break through? It was through support, through help from ideally teachers. And what was that support? The support was well in Zen the The tradition is in is it to have small interviews like it might be a two-minute or a five-minute interview with a teacher So you're sitting all day in silence, but then when it's your turn, you go in, you see the teacher, you tell him or her, what's on your mind? And they really help you with it. They help you put it in perspective. And I could be in agony for several hours. And then I'd go in and talk to my teacher and she would

say to me, oh yeah, this is what your mind is doing. And we know about this. And pretty soon it's going to pass. And then I'd go out and I'd sit again by myself and it would pass. And seeing and having someone guide you and say, yes, and this is what's likely to happen. And this is normal was like the most relieving thing that could happen. And then I began to be able to do that for myself. And that was the key. Like the mornings I would wake up and say, oh, my life is a mess.

I could then have that perspective of, okay, this happens. And I'm not gonna feel this way two hours from now. And it's knowing that with other people's help that really is transformative. Absolutely. I completely agree with you. And among training was the same. And I've often said that, I think when we first start meditating, it's so important to have A in immersive experience and be a guided experience for masters. Because I think the challenge is that if we just try and do it in our homes immediately, it's so hard to push through.

So I think it's amazing when we're using apps and doing 10 minutes a day and I think those all powerful things. But I'd love to encourage anyone who really wants to make meditation a serious practice in their life, just like anything else. When you go and do something for half a day, a day, a weekend, or a week, it becomes so much more natural because not only do you get the time to have the breakthrough, you also have the time to reap the benefits. And therefore, when you go back to your 10 minutes a day or 20 minutes a day or whatever it may be, you have that conviction and confidence that this has actually worked before.

Exactly. Exactly. And don't hesitate to search for a guide, a teacher who you resonate with, that you won't resonate with everybody. And if you're lucky enough to have a few people in your local vicinity, or even online that you could study with, find, it's like a matchmaking.

Find somebody who feels like you want to learn from them and trust them. So you wrote an article about, you know, the four powers of quiet or how quiet can transform our lives. And the first quiet you talk about is quiet helps clarify what's most important now and tomorrow. Could you share what you mean by that for us? Yes, that often when I'm caught up in the busyness of my day, I get distracted by so many things. And I think, oh, that's really important

that I need to handle these emails right now. And then if I stop, and often this happens when I meditate each day, the swirl of emails receipts, meditate each day. The the swirl of emails receipts and and I and what begins to emerge is something more from my heart, which is, oh, I need to call my son because I haven't talked to him in a while. Or I really don't want to be involved in that project because there's something about it that doesn't feel right to me. And often it's only when I'm quiet that my intuition can talk to me, right? That my gut feelings of that's probably not a place I want to be involved, or I really need to spend more time here.

It's only during the quiet that my inner voice will start Making those noises and talking. Yeah, I love that. I completely agree with you It's it's so true because otherwise the noise just completely Overshadows everything else and you're so right about also listening to our intuition our intuition gets buried In the noise absolutely, and you can't hear you're in a voice in the noise. Yeah. And so, yeah, 100% with you. Second one was quiet, allows space for contentment and joy. Yes. So, today, I had been in a morning discussion that you were in and so many ideas swirling around, and my head was spinning, and my head was kind of was kind of getting heavy. And then I said, I need to take a break. And I went out and I said, okay, I'm going to sit by the lake and simply watch.

And so I watched the water and I watched these birds playing in the reeds and I watched an ant crawling up my hand and and everything just kind of quieted down. And I found myself listening to the birds and then feeling like, oh my God, the birds are so amazing. And that's often what happens in a meditation, in a silent meditation retreat where people will come into interviews and say, did you know there are birds outside? Because suddenly they hear with a vividness, something that just recedes into the background all the time. And that hearing the

vividness, so the sudden vividness of a sound or a site gives us joy. And so that's what emerges for me. I love that. The third one was quiet reveals the emptiness of chasing off to the next big thing. Oh, yes. So I work at Harvard Medical School. And needless to say Harvard Medical School places a lot of importance on accomplishment and honors and titles. And of course, that inspires a lot of good work. I mean, Harvard Medical School is full of wonderful people and bright people and caring people. But this chasing honors and recognition and titles

can be endless. And what I find is that this quiet and this practice of returning to quiet makes me realize, okay, I don't really need that next title. And if I got that next award, I'd get a warm feeling for about 10 minutes and then it would be done. And so, what do I really want to invest my time in? Is it working for that award, or is it working for something that I care deeply about that might not be as bright or shiny or well-recognized?

Amazing. I love that. And the fourth one is, quiet reminds us that we can be happy with less. Yes. Well, because, so for example, today, I went out and sat by the lake that didn't cost anything, it didn't require any special equipment. It was nothing. It was me going and sitting down.

And so and it's also a simplicity. So what you realize, you know, we, we are constantly told to buy things and to pay for new experiences. And what you realize is that just sitting still and paying attention brings a kind of joy and a kind of happiness tension brings a kind of joy and a kind of happiness that requires no resources whatsoever. I love that. Yeah, absolutely so true. There's so many times in our day that a free activity could actually end up saving us, not just money, but saving us internally. And it's completely free.

It costs nothing apart from time and a bit of presence and energy and attention. But many people will say to me, oh, I can't sit still in meditation. I hear that all the time. You must hear it all the time, right? And I think it's because at first our minds are really busy and active and that's scary. And so as you say, it's pushing through, it's allowing yourself enough time for things to quiet down. Yes.

Well, I don't know about you. I've been, so I've been meditating for two hours a day for the past 13 years of my life. So it's been a huge part of my life. And I find that even today, because of myself living a very productive lifestyle and traveling and social media and everything, it takes me, even when I start meditating every morning, it takes me around 10 minutes to just reach choir, maybe even 15, maybe 20 sometimes.

And so if we're only meditating for 10 minutes and that's what we've only ever done, I'm not surprised that we only ever hear noise. Yes. Because, so when I was a monk, obviously we got to do meditations as eight hours long and 12 hours long, and that was really painful and excruciating at first, as you said, but when you've pushed through,

and so that's why I'm encouraging anyone who's listening or watching is, do that, and I'm not telling you to do two hours. I'm just telling you to go to a class or go find a teacher or whatever and do, do half an hour with someone. Like, go and dive that step further where you can have that breakthrough.

And it's almost like the gym too. It's like the day you go, the first day you go to the gym is not the day you walk out with the six pack or walk out with any of that. It's also not the day that you fall in love and all the machines make sense to you and you know what to do. It takes time and practice and meditation is no different. It's just a habit that takes a breakthrough.

And I think we have to be patient with it to have that breakthrough. Exactly. And to have the experiences which we do have sometimes of really feeling better, of feeling more settled, of feeling more joy, that we have to get to a point where we have those experiences to know that they're available to us and that they will happen. That's it, that's exactly it. Yeah, and that requires a bit of breakthrough. So I'm encouraging everyone who's listening

and watching to just take that step through to recognize that even after meditating for a long amount of time, not just myself, everyone that I know, it still takes time to quieten the mind. And when you're in that meditation, so don't judge yourself, don't be hard on yourself, don't be harsh on yourself. It's not that you have a messed up mind or any of that. It's just that we do live very busy,

hectic scheduled lives. Yes. The other thing we might encourage your listeners to think about is noticing those places, not where they are formally sitting and meditating, but those places where they're just so absorbed in their life that they don't even think about it. Time just passes. It could be that you are, sometimes, I have a friend who's a carpenter

and he finds that sometimes when he's woodworking, he's just in his zone. Some people are skiing down a slope and they don't think about anything. They're just in it. And so you may find, my wife plays the piano and she says the piano is her meditation because when she is practicing the piano, she's just lost in it. She doesn't think about

anything else. She's just in the zone. And so I would suggest to people that they might see whether there are places in their lives. It could be gardening, it could be anything. See if there are places that are like that for you, points of time, and whether you could enjoy those for what they are, which is a kind of meditative practice in itself. And do them more often. And do them more often. So I wanted to speak about this because I've heard you say it before, and you speak about secure attachment. And I really was fascinated by those two words. And I wanted to really understand

A, what secure attachment is, and B, how do we practice it? Yes. So attachment is the fact that as human beings, we need other human beings from the time we're born. In fact, as we know, we can't survive as infants unless we are connected with at least one other person who will give us care and just surround us with care when we're young. In fact, what we know is that children in orphanages die if they are not given love, not just that if you can have all your material needs met, you can be fed and changed, but you will die if you're not given some kind of love.

You have to be able to attach to another being. And we used to think that this was simply something that children needed, infants, then we realized that it goes all the way through the life cycle. It just takes a slightly different form. So a secure attachment in adulthood is a relationship where you feel that somebody really has your back, that they will provide a safety net for you.

As I said before, that they are the person you could call in the middle of the night if you're scared or sick, that to feel like there's somebody in the world who will be there for you. And you can have more than one person and you can replace attachment figures with new people over time and we do. So initially they're parents, but then it can be friends, it can be lovers, it can be children, grown children. But to have people like that in your life is a secure attachment. And part of secure attachment is feeling like that person will support you in taking risks. So as an adult, if I want to try something new, so for example, I'm now taking singing

lessons. No way. That's a good thing. I used to think I never thought I could sing, but there's this great singing teacher in our community. And so I thought, okay, like do I dare? Because I never thought I could sing it all. So my wife said, do it. Come on. What do you have to lose? She supported me in trying something new. When if she had said, oh, you can't carry a tune, don't do it, I would have shrunk back and said, no.

So that support in venturing out into the world is what an attachment figure, a secure attachment relationship can do for us. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, and I love how that applies so much, your compassion, well, with what you said about children, that when we're children, we also need a secure attachment to take risks.

Exactly. So when we first start walking, you have your mother or your father help you walk when you first ride a bike. You have someone who's running behind you and pushing you along and we need, as we're young, as we're kids, we need secure attachments to take risks. And I think we forget that as we grow, exactly. In fact, if you're ever in a park with a mother or a dad and a toddler, you can see this happen. A toddler will tentatively start walking away from the parent and then

start playing. And then something will happen. Maybe a bird will tweet or some sound will frighten the child. And they'll run back to the parent, grab their leg, spend a little time there and then venture out again. And that's what we do as adults. Yeah. You know, we seek comfort and then we can venture back out into the world and take risks. Yeah. And I love that point specifically. I think it's true that we all need secure attachment, but I like the point that when we have that secure attachment, we can actually break forward. And what about for those of us who sometimes feel like, and I don't know how you feel, and I'm just reflecting on some moments in my life, some of the biggest moments in my

life, which were high risk or high transitions, I actually didn't have a secure attachment for the decision. So I had a secure attachment in the fact that my mom and dad have always loved me, but they didn't necessarily always, not that always loved me. But they didn't necessarily always, not that they disagreed, but they didn't always promote my decisions. And so in that, I've had to take my own, be my own secure attachment to really push forward. If I never did that, I would never have become a monk. If I never did that, I would never have left being a monk. And if I never did that alone, I would never have switched and transitioned into doing what I do as my

purpose today. Because when I had that secure attachment, my parents also worried for my health and safety or longevity with their parental image, which was correct. But like when I first told my mom, I was going to move away from my successful corporate job to try and teach what I and share what I was doing on social media. I mean my mother just looked at me like Are you serious like why do you need to do that? And so why do you need to take that risk and so many people around me Have always had that and I've always found that some of the best decisions in my life. I had to take a loan Yes, you just help me understand that a bit more from your perspective. That's such a good question.

So I think what happens is we can internalize, we can take in that function that close people, parents can provide for us. So your parents probably allowed you to fail at some things and helped you with the failure. So you came home and you didn't do well in a soccer match or You know something else happened or you didn't do well on an exam and Your parents helped you see that it wasn't the end of the world, right? And that you could get a you know, pick yourself up and go back out there, right? That experience and being helped through that experience, probably over and over again, allows you then to do it for yourself. Right.

And that's what you're seeing so that then you can have the courage to check in on your own internal compass. So, you know, no surprise that your mother wasn't saying, sure, go leave your corporate jobs or sure go off and be among. Yes, dear. No, you know, that's, and so how do you do that? You're asking, how do you do that for yourself? And I think it's probably because somewhere along the way people help you internalize that function of being able to allow yourself to take the risk, allow yourself to anticipate, I could fail at this and I will be okay. I will take care of myself and other people will take care of me, if I fail.

Yes. So it's being able to, it's taking the risk and being able to fail that allows you to take risks. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. And I think you're spot on because I remember that when I'd perform badly at school, or when I'd have some sort of challenge in a grade or in a class or sport, my parents would highlight it on that day or on that evening. So when my parents would come back from a parent teacher conference or whatever it was,

that was always the most nerve-wracking thing in the world, just waiting for your parents to come back and you scared what your teachers are going to say. And I already knew what my teachers are going to say because I naturally excelled in some things and didn't in others. And I was always excelling at the things my parents didn't care about. And I didn't excel at the things my parents did care about. And so when they got back, I knew that I would have to hear it that day, but then the next day they were back to being normal. And that's kind of, I don't know, I've, this is the first time I'm reflecting on that, but I found that that worked for me because it helped me reflect enough to know I wanted to improve and grow,

but it helped me not judge myself the next day so that I could start a fresh again. And I think some of the biggest challenges we have is that we keep judging ourselves based on one event or one grade or one moment daily. Like we almost extend our judgment based on one day or one failure. And we keep applying that judgment to ourselves forever. And I think relieving ourselves of that judgment on a daily basis, have you, in becoming a Zen priest to accept your review, thought about judgment at all or how that works for yourself and others,

I'm sure plenty. I thought about judgment so much. So what we talk about in meditation in Zen is the judging mind, the mind of right and wrong, we call it. And how easy it is to slip into the mind of right and wrong. I'm right about this. I'm wrong about that or you're right about this or you're wrong about that. And that meditation helps us to have a bigger perspective where right and wrong are often

kind of relative and kind of not that important. But of course, there are some things that are terribly important, you know, about moral codes and a moral compass, of course. But then often the right and wrong, like, well, you didn't do so well at math. But in the grand scheme of things, you know, we look beyond these judgments and see beyond the judging mind to the bigger world where we look at that tree and we don't say, oh, I wish that

tree had branches that were a little more like this, or that tree is not the leaves. I don't like the design of those leaves so well. We never do that, right? Because nature is beyond the mind of right and wrong. Nature is beyond this judging. And so in Zen, part of the teaching is, can we get beyond this judging of ourselves and others? That we just come forward in the world as we are.

And that's fine. That's like that tree coming forward as it is. What are the core principles of Zen that have really captivated you and other lessons like that? I love that point you just made around nature being beyond the judgment of the mind. What else said there? What are the other themes that have really stood out to you as core pillars of your practice and journey? One of the core pillars is to understand how completely interconnected I am with

everything in the world, everything so that I am not going out to be in nature. I am completely part of nature in every moment and that you and I are sharing the same air. We are not separate in so many ways. And so again, that idea then becomes, if I win and you lose, I lose. You know, if we don't all rise together, nothing can work. So this interconnectedness has become something that I know more in my bones, that I used to pay lip service to, intellectually, but now I, and I think meditation really helps me get that

in a way that I couldn't quite get before. I love that. One thing you've sparked for me there is, with that interconnectedness, I had this reflection of, I think it was a couple of years ago, but it was in my study of the Bhagavad Gita. And I was reflecting on a lot of these statements that we hear today of manifestation, attraction, the universe responding.

And I was, whenever I hear statements being thrown around or becoming popular in culture, I really try and reflect on where's that come from? Where's the root of that statement? Where's the truth in that? So just like you would check in a study, it's like for me, it's like, I wanna check in a study, but I also wanna check in the buggered GT

and these texts and see like, where does that come from? Is it real? Or is it just something someone's manufactured? And one thing that I came across which I'd love to share with you because I think it applies to what you're saying and I'd love to hear your perspective on it, is I found that if you observe nature carefully, which you've so beautifully said that we are a part of, and we are nature, it's not that I'm going into nature, we are nature, if we look at

and observe nature carefully, nature is always serving. So the sun is always providing heat and light. Trees are always providing oxygen and shade. The trees are always providing fruits, flowers that are beautifully centered. The water is always providing water to drink. You look at anything in nature. It's only serving. And so therefore the only way to align with nature and to be one with nature and to be nature is to serve. And that actually all of our problems come from not serving, because

we're unaligned from nature. So when we talk about the universe responding to us, the universe responds only when you're aligned with it. And the only way to be aligned to the universe is to serve because that's what the universe does. Right. Does that make sense? Yes, it makes total sense. And that the not serving, you know, because I can be as selfish as the next person, right? Absolutely. And the impulse not to serve is comes in me from a place of scarcity, like there's not going to be enough, right? And what you're describing is that nature is, is way more than enough, that there is this kind of fullness about the world. Yes. And that we are part of that fullness. And when we know that,

then we are free to serve. Then it's not about, am I going to get enough of what I need? It's that I already have much more than I could ever need. Yeah. Absolutely. And you've spoken out of the way when we used to talk about the spiritual verse of the material realm. We would talk about how, you know, the material realm were used to things being finite. When you're going to a theater or a cinema, there's a finite number of seats. If you're going to watch a sports game, there's a finite number of seats. If you're looking to apply for a job, there's a finite number of jobs. It's always limited.

Right. 30 applicants, a thousand applicants, 25 applicants, 60,000 tickets available for the World Cup, whatever it may be. And we'll always talk about how, you know, in the theater of happiness, there's an unlimited amount of seats. Like, there is no limit on the amount of seats in the theater of happiness or the theater of well-being. Yes. Because that's not reserved for a specific type of person. I love that image. Yeah. The other thing I would say to riff on a little bit is, I want to,

that's the... Is that maybe in the theater of happiness, there is a particular seat that's yours. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. 100%. Absolutely. You know, if we think about aligning with the universe, You know, if we think about aligning with the universe, I don't align with the universe by becoming like you Correct or like anybody else. I align with the universe by finding where I fit And and where you know and seeing feeling my way through Life in the world, right? Absolutely and there's a quote from Joseph Campbell that I absolutely love. Love Joseph. He said, and you've, I bet you've used that quote. But the quote is, if the path before you is clear, you're probably on somebody else's.

It's this idea that we find our seat in the theater of happiness, right? We find our seat in the theater of service, right? So I'm not gonna serve in the same way you are. And so my job is not to become as much like you as I can, although that would be great, I actually. No, no, no, no, no, I'm totally with you, I think. But yeah. There are many qualities I admire, but I think it's often that and that's probably

important. So when we look at other people we admire or we look at a, you know, a Facebook page and we say, I want that life that actually that's not what we want. We really want to find where our energy leads us and where we align in the universe. And Zen has really taught me that. Yeah, I love that. And I agree that actually when we're inspired by other qualities, and we see the qualities that allow them to access and open and grow, or whatever it is, those qualities

are things that we can be imbibing as opposed to the wants. And I find that that's where we always end up is we observe people's external journey, not their internal journey. Whereas the internal journey is actually similar. It's the external journey that's different. Exactly. The internal journey of self-exploration requires a lot of the similar things. We'll all go through breakthroughs and breakdowns. But the external journey doesn't need to be the same at all.

And it shouldn't be either. And it doesn't really happen ever. We also, and I was saying that yesterday, and I remember us connecting when I was sharing it was the statement in the Gita that says, better to practice your own path, even if imperfectly, than to practice the path of another's perfectly. Yes. And often so much of our life is lost in trying to practice someone else's path. Right.

As Joseph Campbell also said, perfectly, like we're always trying to practice someone else's path. As Joseph Campbell also said, perfectly, like we're always trying to perfect someone else's journey. And that's why we climb up that ladder and get to the top and go, wait, this is not the tower I wanted to be on the top of. This isn't the wall that I was meant to climb. And what we forget is that the internal journey is so similar, right? That we look at external journeys and say, well, that's different from mine, or I should be more like that. But the internal journey is so similar, right? That we look at external journeys and say, well, that's different from mine or I should be more like that, but the internal journey is so similar for almost all of us.

And there's another saying, I like, that we're always comparing our insides to other people's outsides. Yes, right? That, you know, because other people, you know, are putting on their game face and, you know, we do, we have to do that for each other in the world, but really it's our inner experience that's so similar and that when we can share it, those are the moments that are magical between people.

Amazing. I love that. So in very anti-Zen fashion, we're going to end with what I call a quick fire, rapid fire round. So we do these final five questions on every episode and the final five questions have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. So I'm pretty sure you're going to be absolutely fine at this. But like I said, we'll do it and I'll probably get lost in it because I'll probably love your answers and I'll ask you more. But the first one is you've said that giving our full attention to things is one of the hardest things to do.

What's something you always give your full attention to? My patience. When I'm doing psychotherapy with somebody, my job is to be fully present. And so I, and I do nothing else, there's nothing else set up. It's just the two of us. So in fact, I'm probably as fully present with you as I ever am because we've cleared out most distractions. So I guess it would be that I give my full attention

when I set up the conditions to be right for doing that. Like you've done here, or like I do with my patients, or when I'm lucky, and I remember like I do with my wife when she wants to tell me about her day, it's something that I have to engineer, and then I can be fully present. Amazing. Fantastic question number two.

You've been with your wife for over 30 years now? Yeah. Is that right? What's your favorite or best relationship advice that you can give to me, my audience? Remember that the relationship is going to change and that's okay, that each person is gonna grow and develop and that that's not a problem. So that things are going to wax and

wane that, you know, some of the physical passion just isn't going to be there all the time. Some of the emotional excitement of being together isn't going to be there all the time. And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the relationship. It means that the relationship is a living vibrant thing. Beautiful. Love that. Question number three, if you could have everyone in the world do an experiment for 30 days, and they would be doing one activity every day for 30 days, what would it be? It would be to meditate every day for 30 days.

Okay. No, I'm amazing. Okay. Question number four, what's the first thing you do when you wake up apart from brushing your teeth or showering or any of that? Normal. I meditate. Yeah. Perfect.

And you've been doing that for 13 years. Yeah. Amazing. And the fifth and final question, what is one trait that you think you have that has allowed you to create the life that you have today? What is one quality or trait or characteristic that you have that you think has been integral in providing happiness and well-being in your life? But you seem like a very happy in. I think it's a willingness to say I don't know and to try new things and learn from people, and to say, please teach me,

because I don't know what I'm doing here, that I think that's the thing that I would hold on to of all the things that, of all the qualities I have. That's the thing I would hold on to, because it's allowed me to get into all these new things that I never dreamed I would be doing. Absolutely. Thank you again, Robert, for doing this.

Thank you for the pleasure for being here. This was a great conversation. I hope you enjoyed it. Yeah, it was really good. I really did. We got totally lost where I wanted to get. Oh, I'm sorry. Did we go, oh, no, in a good way.

No, no, no, no, in a good way. I always want a good podcast interview for me is when we go beyond the page. And so my questions give me structure and points to push on, but then after that I want those points to lead to deeper things and that's what this did. So yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation on a personal level.

Yeah, me too. And I'm excited for everyone to hear it. And for everyone who hasn't seen Dr. Robert Walding his TED talk yet, please, please, please go check it out. It's awesome. It's far less time than this. So you'll probably learn different things from it and it will really give you an understanding

of the study as well, which has been so well documented and talked to my in so many areas now. But if you want to go to the source of that study, that TED talk is the one to watch. It's already been viewed over like 27 million times or something crazy like that. So please, please, please check that out. Dr. Robert Wooding, is there any other way that my audience can follow you, see your work or read your articles and stay connected?

Yes. They can go to our study website, which is called adultdevelopmentstudy.org and they can go to our foundation website which is lifespanresearch.org. And I just want to say one more thing which is that I think you and I get along really well. I do too, definitely. Thank you. I'm excited for many more conversations online and offline where we can really dive deep into a few things. I'm excited for many more conversations online and offline, where we can really dive deep

into a few things. I'm excited, but thank you so much. Yeah, I really. Amazing. Getting better with money is a great goal for 2023, But how are you going to make it happen? Ordering a book that lingers on your nightstand isn't going to do the trick. Instead, check out our podcast How to Money. That's right, we're two best buds offering all the helpful personal finance information

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And not lost is my new podcast about all those things. It's a travel show where each week I go with a friend to a new place and to really understand it, I try to get invited to a local's house for dinner where kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party, it doesn't always work out. Ooh, I'll have to get back to you. Listen to Not Lost on the iHeart radio app

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