Parks and Recollection - Writer Dan Goor: The Reporter (S1E3)

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

It's a beautiful day in Pawnee! Alan and Rob have invited their good friend and writer Dan Goor over to sip tea and look back at the third episode of Parks and Recreation. In ‘The Reporter,’ Leslie gets upset when she finds out the journalist doing a story on the new park has slept with her ex! Dan tells us what the original script of this episode looked like, then helps Rob and Alan navigate the rocky terrain of the writer’s room hierarchy. Find out what jokes get the boot, which character was modeled after Han Solo, and if the show is better with a laugh track—all on today’s fantastic episode. Got a question for the Pawnee Town Hall? Send us an email: [e-mail] Or leave a 30-Second voicemail at: [phone]

We're getting together to talk about all the things we used to do The laughs, the passions, the little Sebastian's, the pits we fell into And we're putting it on in a podcast, then we'll send it up into the sky Then we'll send it up into the sky We're calling it Parks and Recollection Come on little podcast, spread your wings and fly Welcome to Parks and Recollection, the podcast where we visit our old friends in the great city of Pawnee one episode at a time.

I am literally Rob Lowe, and I'm here with my co-host, Alan Yang. We are psyched. Today we are joined by writer Dan Gore. He wrote this specific episode, The Reporter, along with many other very memorable Parks and Rec episodes, including the famous Lil' Sebastian episode. He's also the co-creator of Brooklyn Nine-Nine, which ran a million episodes and is beloved. So yeah, we're going to talk about activities from the writer's room, made it into the show. We're going to talk about the romantic storyline in the series. We're going to talk about all this

stuff with Dan. So welcome, Dan. Let's get into it. Congratulations. You're blazing a trail, Dan. Oh, thank you. Wait, what were the first two episodes if there were no guests? Just us talking, man. We're talking about the show. Amazing. That sounds great. They were pretty flaccid. We were waiting for you. Hopefully you can just drop in and do the records for the first two as well. Sounds good.

You just, you just left pauses between questions. Yeah, that's right. And then a lot of laughter, I imagine. Hey, wait a minute. Thank you. Why don't we have a laugh track? Is there any podcast that has a laugh track? I think this could be groundbreaking.

I actually, I have a Parks and Rec story about a laugh track, which is. Oh shit. Yeah. Remember this? So I did a pilot for NBC that was a multicam with a laugh track after season three. Was that when we, was that, I think that was when we all, when we thought we might not come back for season four and it was was Yeah, it was after season three. And it was a and Mike, sure to make fun of me, took a scene from an episode I had written of parks, and he re edited it with a laugh track in it. Oh, my God. And I gotta say it was great actually, it was like, it backfired so hard on him. It was so much more fun, not more fun,

but it was kind of fun to watch. Alan, do you remember? Did you watch it? If I remember correctly, Greg Daniels saw that fake joke clip with a laugh track and was like, we can never show this to NBC because they will add a laugh track to the show. It was like, we do not want to add a laugh track to the show.

We got to protect the show. Is there any way, any way I can see that clip i didn't see it that sounds absolutely i don't know that it survived yeah the day i mean it was just i feel like someone someone burned the tape yeah dean added space between every laugh between every line and then they just added a laugh track but even the things you wouldn't think would work, worked. Like a deadpan, you know, Nick Offerman look to camera was great. Just so everyone knows, we are doing episode three of season one today. First aired April 23rd, 2009, written by our guest, Dan Gore, directed by Jeffrey Blitz. This is the synopsis of the episode. Leslie gets local newspaper reporter

Shauna Mollway-Tweep, played by Alison Becker, to do a story about the pit-to-park idea. Leslie overprepares, but things go very wrong when Andy mentions that he was drunk when he fell into the pit. Leslie asks Mark for help, but Mark's version of help is to sleep with Shauna to smooth things over. Leslie eventually finds out and lashes out in a second interview with Shauna by the pit. Leslie's feelings for Mark become more clear and complicated by the situation causing conflict for the committee. Eventually, Mark and Ann get Shauna to retract negative quotes and print a somewhat neutral but pretty glib article about the park. And again, Leslie remains positive that the park will work out. Meanwhile, in the B story, Tom purposely loses to Ron in online scrabble to curry favor with him.

April secretly plays and bests Ron using Tom's account. Tom covers up his lie and Ron later admits to the camera he likes the lack of initiative and lack of ambition from Tom because he's a libertarian. Guys, I watched it. I watched it last night. I watched it. I did a little refresher. When's the last time you watched it?

I had not watched it. I mean, obviously, after it came out, I watched it religiously every night just to see my name in the credits, which then was Daniel J. Gore. I had this thing where I thought that was the cool way to do my full name. Oh, whoa, whoa. Stop right there. I can tell you. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to have

three names. Stephen J. Gould. Yes. That's right. Stephen J. Gould. Yeah, John Wilkes Booth. John Wilkes Booth. Lee Harvey Oswald. Those guys meant business. It's pretty good. yes that's right stephen j cool yeah john wilkes booth john wilkes booth lee harvey oswald those guys meant business um it's pretty good so i watched it again it's pretty good i think it holds up yeah i i think man so on the previous episode we were talking about how long it took us to write these couple episodes and it's like oh my god what is this show do you remember writing this one like in that room yes so okay correct me if i'm wrong was my episode originally the second episode

and axlers was canvassing was the third and then we flopped them i don't know i wasn't in the room to flip them i thought they were why first of all why did you guys flop the episodes this very frequently happens with new shows they they probably thought canvassing came out stronger than the reporter, or there was something about it that they wanted to show the audience, something about the characters. On Brooklyn Nine-Nine, small plug for Brooklyn Nine-Nine, we did our second episode ended up airing fourth or something. I don't know.

Maybe it's just like a flex by the network. They're like, switch them. We insist that you switch them. Yeah, we want to mess with you. So here was the other thing, and I'm sure you've talked about this. We did a thing which was unusual for sitcoms at the time, which is we wrote almost all of the episodes before we began shooting. began shooting. And we hadn't seen even the pilot because they hadn't shot the pilot yet because they had a straight to series order, which was unusual and was based on how hot the project was, how great Greg and Mike were. They just picked it straight up to series. But we didn't have the

advantage of having seen the actors read the lines. We didn't really know what it looked and felt like. At a certain point, we were rewriting, I think this episode or the next episode, and they were cutting the pilot. And the pilot was going from being like, really hard, hard comedy, like Leslie falling down the pit wall was the set piece to being basically a docu documentary. There was like one cut of it that almost had no jokes in it. Do you remember that cut, Alan? Yeah, it's the one that came out. Kidding.

Oh, whoa. I thought it was great, but it's fairly comedy-free, particularly when you compare it to what it became. Well, I have to re-watch the pilot. I haven't re-watched the pilot in a while, but I will say,

Mike has always said that part of the difference between season one and season two was the show finding its voice. That's the writers, the actors, the producers, everyone. And part of it was the audience learning who these characters were and what this world was. And I do think, as I rewatched the reporter, I think Mike is really right. I used to think he was just kind of saying that to be like, no, no, no, no, no. It's the audience's fault. But for real, The Reporter has really big, really funny moments in it. And I was watching it totally de novo.

It's like I'd never seen it before. I totally forgot the cold open, which we wrote a ton of cold opens in like a fever dream where we wrote six of them in a row. And so they were just slapped. Each one was slapped onto one of the episodes. So I completely didn't remember the cold open. Personally, I think the cold open is not super great. I think we ended up having better cold opens as the run went on, but the episode has some really funny moments in it. Yeah. I was surprised to see like jump cut sequences. And you know, she's eating waffles and Jerry's it look, it has been cool to see the sort of change in the evolution of the characters. And one of the big ones is Leslie, right? It's like, and you can see in this episode, it's like,

it's the difference between people sort of respecting and loving her to people just kind of shitting on her. And there's a lot of people shitting on her in this one. It's a lot of like her being in love with someone who's not in love with her, which is like, you know, it's not a high status thing for the character. That whole storyline, I have so many feelings about.

I have so many feelings. Hey man, episode three, episode three. So I opened up the writer's first draft. Oh my God, I love this. This is real. This is what we're here for, man. The writer's first draft. Oh my God. I love this. This is real. This is what we're here for, man. The writer's first draft.

It gets so, it was so, I mean, it's all based on the outline. You know, these things, it's not like just for people who don't know anything about television writing. It's not like I had free reign and I was like,

yeah, I will make Leslie do this. No, we break, we break an outline in the room as a group with the showrunners guidance. Right. And then this, this,

the writer goes off in this case, Dan goes off and writes the draft, right? And you add a few jokes and blah, blah, blah. So the stuff between Leslie and Shauna Malway-Tweep, where Leslie learns about Shauna Malway-Tweep having sex with Brandanowicz is so, I actually think it is so, it's so funny in the episode,

it is so funny what we broke. It is so funny what we broke. It was this thing where Leslie goes to Shauna Malway tweet towards the end when she's trying to get Shauna. So Shauna decides that she's going to publish this damning information that she found out about the Parks Department while having sex with Mark Brandenowicz. First of all, in the episode as it aired it's implied that uh it was kind of pillow talk but there's a really funny line that we had all come up with where brent denowitz was like i thought anything you said was off the record if it was said while you were actually having sex so the implication was while having sex in the sex act he was like this this park is never gonna happen off color for nbc yeah so leslie goes up to shauna and she's like look i know i know exactly how you

feel i had sex with him once and with mark once and then shauna goes three times she's like oh three times oh okay well you know uh i you can be kind of lost in the moment and you're wondering, will it happen again? And she's like, oh, it happened again. It happened again at night. And whatever, it turns out throughout the monologue, throughout the scene that Shauna has had sex with him three times. Once, then again, they took a shower together. And then the next morning they had sex. And you just see Leslie crumpling with each one of these things.

Not in the cut. Not in the cut. I can see Mike highlighting and deleting that. It's like too sexual. There's another funny thing. Do you remember there's a moment where Leslie finds out Shana Mollway-Tweep shows up at the pit for the interview and she's dropped off by Mark Brandenowicz and she's very clearly wearing the same outfit as she was wearing the night before. And then Brandenowicz also, he actually is pretty good.

He yawns when he drops her off. I thought that was genius. It was genius. It's like they clearly did not sleep at all. Then she comes in and she's like can i borrow a pen she has she has nothing there and we had this thing where leslie says i just i need a moment and she walks to her car and in the room we thought this was the funniest thing in the world which was she was supposed to we were supposed to be on a wide static shot of the car and she's sitting

in the seat and then she was supposed to drop the seat back and just shoot out of frame like dropped back do you remember that alan we thought that was gonna be so funny and then it just the seat didn't work that way so you clearly see her shoulder like working the thing and then she kind of goes down piecemeal like yeah it's like oh we gotta get a different car it's like we're gonna have another car let's just shoot it we're running at daylight. Just shoot it, man. I have to, I have to just ask you about one line from this specific episode,

because I, it blew my mind. I think it's the last line in the episode regarding, uh, Brent Danowitz. Um, Haverford says, man,

that dude has stuck it in some crazy chicks. I was like, what? Also in this episode, Ron Swanson turns to Cameron and says, his wife is a bitch. Yes. Tammy.

Yeah. That's really, yeah. Twice. He was like, it's actually very jarring when he says that too. It's very jarring in the original script. He tries to enlist Tom in helping him to beat her at online Scrabble.

So there was a reason that he said that. And all of the reasoning rationale fell apart. Oh, yeah. Here, there's no reason. It's jarring. It's like, whoa, he seems like such a misogynist. I know. You see these cuts.

It's so strange. And also, did you notice, Dan, watching the episode, the camera moves are wild. It's just swinging. It just doesn't do that. Yeah, a lot of swingles. And I think the visual vocabulary of the show season one was a lot. I think we instructed the directors. I mean,

I didn't, but, but the showrunners did to just make it way more docu and it is swinging wild. Can I tell you when, when I, as an actor, when I hear the word swingle coming at me,

so a single is another word for your closeup and a swingle is when they're swinging the camera around getting multiple people's close-ups at the same time everybody knows to tell me when i work that they're going to be swing goals before it happens because if i fucking start acting and i see that camera moving away from me uh just hearing swingles makes me makes me insane we stopped doing swingles yeah brooklyn 99 no no swingles no swingles you can't you can't cut on the swing thank you no i know it's all it's all coverage and it's coverage is when you do kind of traditional close-ups and have you have the ability to edit so i think we went away from

that i mean this was again the second or third episode we shot so it's just very still doing um talking heads though in this episode the talking heads are in profile oh yeah so we could edit them um two two two things one was i was it was cool to see ann perkins's house a lot of people probably don't realize that house was completely built on a soundstage yep and it was really cool like you really felt like you were inside of a house and i think it shoots pretty well when you see leslie at front door, although we did shoot the front door stuff off and outside, but them in that house, that was completely built on a soundstage. And that inner courtyard is the coolest inner courtyard of any, at City Hall, sorry, the inner courtyard where the pigeons are. We always had pigeon

wranglers and there were pigeons and it could rain in there. And it was really cool to walk onto that set. It's one of the few outdoor spaces on a soundstage that actually felt like an outdoor space. Yeah, it was amazing. I remember the first time I ever saw it, Alan, you showed it to me. The first day I showed up on Parks and Rec to take a meeting to see if we were all going to work together. And you turned to him and you said, one day we'll host a podcast together. I was like, what's a podcast?

I was like, if my career goes right, one day I'll be a podcast host only. And I was blown away by that courtyard. It's so real. Yeah. People, people don't know. Exterior stuff on a soundstage always looks like, you know, when they open the door and home improvement. Yeah. And you look out and you're like, but not that.

I mean, parks had the coolest looking set of any show i've ever worked on i mean it was insane and part of the philosophy of it was it like a government building should should grow so we would build these sets for a specific episode and then they would just stay up and city hall would just become longer and larger and bigger and it was incredible to watch it. And the detail was insane. I do remember there's a scene in The Reporter where Anne is talking to Shana Malway-Tweep and Brent Danowitz. It's the scene where Anne says, dude, you've got to talk to Shana. And there's this funny moment where Brent Danowitz is like, I wouldn't say we're romantically involved. And you're like, dude, what are you doing? It's a great moment.

The Brent Danowitz thing, was he always, because listen, my whole experience with Brindanowicz was he was at the table reading when I first showed up, and then that was it. He was not on the show anymore. So I got to know, was he always designed to be just an absolute heel? Because he's a heel. Yeah, it's tough to come back from some of the stuff

that is like he's doing this episode right he's kind of being very casual and sort of you know screwing over leslie in some ways and i think the idea was kind of again dan you can speak to this too but it felt like charming rogue was kind of the idea was like oh he can be he can do bad stuff but still be likable i don't know what he is that is that he were supposed to be Han Solo, right? I mean, that was the, the idea was that was, that was like the impossible casting description was a young Han Solo and he was supposed to be a charming rogue. Yeah. That's impossible.

I think we realized at a certain point that we were kind of hanging the character out to dry. And then we spent a lot of, I mean, he ends up not being the heel, but sort of the victim of, of the show in a lot of ways. Yeah, he gets rejected by the end of the season. So he's kind of put in his place, I think, is kind of what happens. Yes. Interesting.

But, you know, Andy Pratt's character, there are characters that are just already fully formed, but just not utilized as much as they need to be. And Andy would be, where you look at a Brindanowitz character where it's like, okay, I'm not sure what that is, or Aziz isn't quite what he becomes. There are other characters that are like from the jump were doing their thing, and none more so than Pratt as Andy. Yeah. Some of that has to do with how much,

I think, Pratt brought to the character, how much joy and how much fun he had and and how open and simple he was as a character you know the one we had the most trouble with i would say was actually ron in the beginning we really did not know how to write ron and we we kept pitching different stories and it was really greg who really Greg Daniels who kept us on task. We kept pitching stories like, he's super lazy. That's what it's all about. He wants to take advantage of the government. And Greg was like, that's not who he is. He's a libertarian who wants to destroy the government. He wants to use his position. And we're like, what the hell is a story of that?

And we just could not figure him out. And I think we sort of, one of the stories that helped us crack him was the hernia story. Although that is not about the government stuff. But we did a story where it was in Axler's episode where he's sitting at his desk and he refuses to move. And April figures out that he has a hernia. It's season two, The Stakeout. And Axler wrote a line that was so funny where she's trying to guess what's wrong with him and she she's like is it cancer is it your prostate is it appendicitis and he goes yes and then she says is it a sprained leg and he goes i already said

it was appendicitis and she's like a person can have two things that is funny and then she wheels him out but it was this idea that he was like so beholden to a principle by the way just fyi as i was watching this on peacock peacock i'm not trying to give a plug for peacock i got no vested interest in it but uh they they have commercials obviously and there was a commercial for an insurance company with an actual, literal Ron Swanson ripoff. Oh, really? I promise you they had to have offered this commercial to Nick. It's a guy dressed like Ron Swanson, talking like Ron Swanson, doing woodworking. And it's like, that's how in the culture Ron Swanson is.

They're the commercial ripoffs. Iconic. By the way, Rob, if you pay for Peacock, you can skip. They're commercial ripoffs. Iconic. By the way, Rob, if you pay for Peacock, you can skip the commercials. It's great. I recommend it. Oh, okay. Get the pod to pay. Oh, all right.

Conan, get ready to write a big check. Conan, yeah. Get ready to pay me $7 a month or whatever it costs. did you talk about the fact that we went pit shopping the whole writing staff went off and we looked at like three different pits no this is new news to me where were the other ones we haven't talked about that i still couldn't tell you how to get to hazeltine and whatever like so the one we did talk about with the one we like, the one we found, like we dug it up,

right. Didn't NBC Universal dig it up. It's like, and then they had to fill it in and dig it out again. A couple of times, I think I had tremendous experience, but we went and we'd go with like, with,

with Greg and with Mike and Greg would stand there and you go, I don't know if this pit is good. You're like, it's a pit. Were there, were there actual holes in the ground?'m like do we do like or was it just a construction site right yeah it was an empty it was like this one's too big this one's too small i think it was like oh the housing crisis happened that's fortunate for us because no one is going to buy this lot lot um so yeah so the what the few things survived from our early drafts the the is wait is this what we should be talking about yeah yes it's a very loose free-flowing conversation we'll

get we'll get to your like background and stuff but you know whatever you're excited about that we could be talking about me this is fantastic wait what were you gonna say what are you gonna say um so the scrabble story was totally different the scrabble story was the what what became the full scrabble story was really just the first beat of the scrabble story and then it's really it's so funny because we all became much better at telling stories what it was was he's failing at scrabble r Ron pulls him aside and says, I know you're doing this on purpose. And then he says, I like your attitude. All that stuff about you don't work hard. No ambition.

No ambition. You're a perfect government worker. And then he says, I want you to be a spy for me and spy on the other Parks and Rec people. And that was the end of the story. Oh, wow. Like no beginning, middle, and an end. Right. It was just kind of that.

I was struck by how short those beats were. It's like, it went in the cut because it's like, you know, I guess it's a network show. It was like, it's like, I lost the game. That's like one beat. I was like, oh my God, it's so short. It's like so crazy.

Fishing was in the writer's first draft that when it shows fishing and then he makes that is, he has fishing on his row. And I remember us talking about like, what's a good word that he could have the seven letter word or whatever um then there was a thing where leslie goes to ann's house from the pit after she finds out that uh marcus slept with shanamale tweet and uh she sits down and she's she's talking about how risky it is for a government employee to sleep with a member of the press.

And she said, it's just really risky. And in the background, Andy Dwyer, Chris Pratt goes, oh, she goes, it's just so risky. And then he yells, oh, he didn't wear a condom? Yeah, amazing. And she goes, what? No, I mean, it's risky for political reasons. And then they have a few more lines. And then out of the blue, he says, I bet he didn't wear a condom.

And then the only thing that survived in the cut is him saying, I bet he didn't wear a condom. Yes, it comes out of nowhere. It comes out of nowhere. It got cut out. I forgot that that got cut out because it does come out of nowhere like why is he saying that like so fun that pratt runner he has he goes that's because he was

thinking with the head of his wiener and not the head of his brain there was a line in the writer's first draft that was like men men are men will have sex with anything that has a vagina even animals trust me he said it's a prat there are some really great there's some great wordsmithing vagina, even animals. Trust me. He said, Pratt! There are some really great, there's some great wordsmithing in this. Like, I mean, that's that, that joke, there's a billion ways to tell that same joke, but, but the, the, the head of his brain is. Yes. Now in the, in the first draft, it was just like, uh, he was thinking with his penis, I think.

Right. So I don't know when we changed, if that was in the rewrite or if that was Pratt. Because that also could have been a Pratt thing. What I also, my, because you know I'm obsessed with the murals. We've talked about this. I'm obsessed with the murals on the set. And we get a good look at the trial of Chief Womapo in this episode. Yes. And Leslie's description of it, she's like,

and I am always amazed at his quiet dignity. Yes. When the camera pulls out and the cannon is one and a half feet away from the guy, it is, that may be the best. It is pretty amazing. It is so simple.

It is a one panel cartoon that is so perfect. And you just, you just somehow know that that trial didn't go well. You just, I, you know, it's type of good storytelling. I mean, I, I don't know much, but I know that it sounds like chief Womopo kind of got railroaded. Even the characters talking about it being offensive is still now not enough to cover. It's like, no, now I can't even, I can't even do that. You could never do that.

You could never do that. You could never do it. I pitched one. I was very proud of, which was the Pawnee Zoo. Do you remember that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just a bunch of Hasidic Jews in a cage. Yeah.

Did that make the show? Yeah, that's in there. I'm Jewish. I should point out I'm Jewish. I'm allowed to- Dango was like, I love that one. It's my favorite one. Yeah, I'm Asian.

I'm Chinese. I mean, if I could take one thing from the show, that would be, I would put it over my bed in my bedroom. Were there some that were made that were so out there that you didn't show them? Well, there was one where the joke was that it was pixelated. Remember there was like, there was a mural and it always had a, um, a flyer over a part of it. And then when you pulled off the flyer, it was completely pixelated. And then there's one that was just so violent. And that's the fire that's in city in the, in the chamber room. Remember this? The bread factory, it smelled like toast. I mean, that was the bread violent and that's the fire that's in city in this in the chamber room remember this

the bread factory it smelled like toast i mean that was the bread factory fire was pitched in pre-production of season one we thought it was so funny that there was a massive fire in the town that everyone remembered fondly because the whole town smelled like toast yeah that was early yeah it's also funny in these early episodes, Leslie is also mildly racist. We changed that completely, but you can't do that. She says Tom is smooth like milk chocolate. You can't do that. You can't do that. What are we doing, man? We were there. Why would we do that? Different time, I guess. No, we changed that. We changed that though. We learned. We grew and learned. We grew and learned. Yes, for sure. Let's talk about the writers room. How'd you, how'd you

join? I think you knew Mike a little bit, right? Yeah. Mike and I went to college together. We did a lot of theater together, uh, mostly comedy, but some like very experimental movement based theater. Oh my God. What, what, like what, like what? Mum and Shantz? Were you like in tights and shit? No, we were, we were not in tights. I don No, we were not in tights. I don't think we were confident enough in our physiques to wear tights. We were in jumpsuits, which is like, I'd say one level down from tights. Yeah, but I knew it. Something like that.

They were improv based. They were usually pretty funny, but also had some very like serious moments where there would be an entire scene that was just done in improvised movement. Happenstance, that was one of them, was called Happenstance. I think the title says it all. Oh boy. I was at The Daily Show for a few years, and then I was at Late Night with Conan O'Brien. And Mike said there might be an opening at the office, and I might be creating a new show. And so he said, would you like to come out to LA and interview for it?

And he asked, he also asked my, our other best friend, we had a, this guy, Charlie Grandy, with whom I had been writing partners at The Daily Show. We were no longer writing partners, we were still very close. So both of us flew out on separate weekends, and we interviewed for a slot basically on the untitled Daniel Schur project and the office. And it was the most nerve wracking thing was I had to tell Conan because Conan, there was no hiding it. I mean, I'm not even that, it's not like I'm that noble. It's just Greg Daniels is Conan's best friend. So there was no way I was going to interview with Greg Daniels and it wasn't going to get back to Conan. And Conan was incredibly gracious.

I remember talking to him in the little airlock, but right in front of where his dressing room was at late night. And I was so nervous. And he was like, all I ask is that you hire me when you become a star or whatever, something like that. I guess I don't remember it. Yeah. It was like yesterday.

What the fuck did he say? Yeah, he said some shit that was nice. Whatever. Conan's great. Blah, blah, blah. No, he really is. Anyway, so I went there. I had the weirdest interview with Greg.

I mean, obviously, I knew Mike. I'd known Mike for years. Greg, it was a four-hour interview that took place intermittently in his office in the little dining area at the office, not where the writers ate, but where the crew was eating. And then in the writer's room, we sat in his office and he was like, have you seen this new feature on YouTube I have never seen before or since, which looked like a web that you make in school when you're a child that's like a thought web, they call them mind maps, but with different videos. It was like he had tapped into some other bizarre YouTube beta. We watched videos, then he was like, I'll be back. He left for an hour and a half. I sat there with Mike, then he came back. I sat there with Mike then he came back

and then after a while he's like okay great thanks and I was like great okay and then I went back home I had no idea how it went Greg Levine was working for Mike already and then Mike said hey Greg

Greg and I like you we'd love to work with you just out of curiosity which show would you want to work on and I said I'd love to work with you. Just out of curiosity, which show would you want to work on? And I said I'd like to work on the new project. It was crazy. I went back. I was like, you were listed as, I didn't remember you listed as producer or story. These are weird titles that writers have.

Do me a favor, guys. Stop right here. I'm throwing a flag. Please. Walk everybody through. Because even I, after 40 years of being in this business, don't really understand the hierarchy in the writer's room of titles. Total nonsense. I know it's nonsense, but when you're watching the credits, walk me through this, because you're like, senior editor of stories who doesn't edit.

And then it's like. Well, okay. So, yes. And then we should get back to. We'll get back to your life narrative, Dan. Don't worry. We'll talk about you more. Don't worry. No, no, no. It's just interesting because I think both of us, Alan, you and I were hired before even Amy was hired. Yes. Yeah. Which is also interesting to talk about. Okay. So the hierarchy is staff writer, then story editor, then executive story editor, then co-producer, producer,

supervising producer, co-executive producer, executive producer. Yes. And that's starting from bottom to top first year, you're a staff writer, which sounds like, oh, great. That's the lowest level. That's like, you've never written before. You're, you're, you're, you're super green. You come, that's what I was season one. I was not even paid for your script. You're almost an apprentice writer, but then, you know, as you, as you, you know know go up through the ranks like and by the way we just listed seven random ass names those are all kind of the same job you just sit in the same room it's like well i don't understand i mean different shows have different yeah yeah and one thing that mike did mike and greg did on this show

that was really cool was and in some ways really difficult was if it was your episode you sat at the keyboard and you typed and you sort of ran the room for your episode when Mike wasn't in the room. Yeah. And it didn't matter what your level was. This was in season one. That stopped happening pretty quickly, yeah. But it also meant, because I had a shorthand with Mike,

and because there were very few senior writers, by season two, I was number two on the show, and I was a co-producer. I mean, which is, like, you should be a co-executive producer. I was, like, five steps below, I was number two on the show and I was a co-producer. I mean, which is like, you should be a co-executive producer. I was like five steps below where I was supposed to be. Okay, while we're at it, let's do this. Because again, a lot of folks out there

don't understand the intricacies. And I can't, I'm slurring my words. I've had a lot of vodka. Sorry, it's early in the morning. Intricacies. Let's go through the producing credits and what the hell they mean, because that's really mental. Yes. I mean, that's all really sort of arcane, right? And it also varies,

so there's a line producer who is generally in charge of the sort of physical production. So that's budgets and hiring people who are in the crew and shooting the show. So for Parks and Rec, that was a guy named Morgan Sackett, who's probably the best in the business. Yeah, he's the best. He's the best ever. He went in and did Veep. And yeah, he does a lot of shows with Mike. That's like the COO of the show.

And so sometimes that's what's really confusing. Here's where it gets super confusing. That person can be listed as any number of things. They can be listed as a producer. They can be listed as an executive producer. They can be listed as line producer. Sometimes they're just listed as UPM, unit production manager. I mean, that's a different thing.

Or they'll just say produced by. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that starts. And then there's other things. It's like, this is the associate producer. They're in charge of post. I mean, it's so weird.

It's very, it should just, everyone should be listed as writer. Like, I don't understand it. It's very dumb. But typically the way it works on a show like Parks or The Office is there are two or three rooms going at one time. And those rooms are generally run by the showrunner and some combination of co-EPs, co-executive producers, or supervising producers. And the showrunner is God. The showrunner is God. The showrunner is God, but the line producer has a lot of sway over God because God has a budget. It's a God who can't just build worlds at his whim. Yes. It's God's accountant slash business manager slash, in some ways, his boss.

One of the things that makes Morgan so amazing is he does two things. One, he makes almost anything possible. So God can truly be God. And two, he has a way of talking the showrunner into thinking the thing Morgan can make happen is the thing the showrunner wanted in the first place. Yep. And is just as good, if not better. Yep. And the thing Dan was alluding to earlier was it was such a small staff season one, right? It was such a small staff. And then season two, you know, we hired a few more writers, but because Dan and I had been there for a while and had been hired really early on. And at a certain point, Mike started trusting us. You know, Dan was the number two on the show for a long time, right? Dan would run the room a lot and he wasn't technically a high ranking writer, but you know, he was good at his job and he ran the room and, and, and, you know, and, and later on, again, as I said, I was, I started-ranking writer, but he was good at his job, and he ran the room.

And later on, again, as I said, I started as a baby writer. But as time progressed, I got more responsibility than someone typically with my technical job title would get. So that was very lucky in terms of getting on the show early and sort of figuring out the tone of the show. So, I mean, that we're very grateful for. As I think back, I think I really should have had a better agent. I mean, well, I did, you know, I gotta be honest, Dan,

I did skip some levels along the way. So I think you did too. I skipped a level. I went ESC to producer. Yeah, yeah, well, whatever. This is an arcane, like, yeah, negotiation.

Do you guys think most writers' rooms are meritocracies? Because I really feel like they are, like, regardless of your title, if you crush in the room, you get to move up. And yet, I've also heard some are way, way, way more structured make that, that sort of lock things into place. Like if a person's been on the show for five years,

they're both at a higher position and they have access to the showrunner and the trust of the showrunner in a way that a new person, even a new person who is crushing it doesn't necessarily have just because they're new. Right. And so it, it's hard. Room dynamics are really bizarre fascinating

it is really fascinating bizarre and now in the world of zoom even crazier are you pro or con uh zoom zoom writers rooms i think it's the worst thing in the world for comedy yeah okay all my drama all my drama showrunners all of them every single drama showrunner loves it for drama and every comedy person hates it it it ruins your timing it ruins your timing everyone's talking over each other you're trying to pitch a joke four times you're talking over each other now the thing i like is that you know people can be in different cities and that's kind of nice and and we try to keep shorter hours on the show i'm working on right now but you know and you don't have to commute but that being said it's you can't be on zoom for that many hours you will go crazy like it's just really it's

writers rooms are totally different for drama and comedy like in a comedy writer's room i mean season one of of parks we were there until what 11 o'clock at night a lot of the time yeah i think two in the morning was probably the latest we never spent the night but yeah and you're you're basically living together and a lot of what like makes the show work is the camaraderie you develop and the joking around that happens sort of off camera so to speak it it gets funky in there man it gets funky in there and and you know as far as like how decisions are made in the writer's room it look it varies from show to show and i think parks ultimately was a very functional show that I'm grateful to have been on because

the way Mike would run the room was pretty open-minded, right? He would listen to input from people. And look, the ultimate arbiter is typically the showrunner. But I think a good showrunner allows people's opinions to be heard and sort of gauges them and then sort of weighs based on what everyone's saying. And sometimes you could sway them. I remember arguing against Mike. I remember arguing against you, Dan.

And it's like you argue but only just for an idea hopefully and hopefully it doesn't get personal. And then the decision gets made. Sometimes people's feelings are hurt, but hopefully you're friends outside of that. Well, so one of the things, I mean, just to pile onto that, I would say like one of the advantages I had from knowing Mike was that I could really argue with him. I mean, we went way back and we'd done stuff creatively for 10 years at that point. And so

one of Mike's greatest strengths is also weirdly a tiny bit of a flaw, which is he's so good at pitching stories that he can kind of transfix himself and a room into believing that a story will work. So we'd be in a story room, we'd be trying to figure something out, and we'd be stuck, and he'd come in and he'd go, oh, this is easy. And he'd say, you know, he'd pitch out the first act in great detail, and then he'd say, you know, and then Leslie and Ron get in a big fight, And then we're in act two, and these three things happen, and then blah, blah, blah. And it was like, yeah, what was that fight though? And we all leave and we'd be like, we got it. And then we'd sit there trying to figure it out. And then the advantage

that I had was I was close enough with Mike that I could go into the editing bay where he was editing with Dean. And I'd be like, wait, I don't think this, we don't think this part works like this. Everything's great. We need to move this around. And then he and I would have a conversation for a long time. And then I'd come back to the room and be like, okay, here's what we figured out. And then there were times where like, it's always on Conan. There was one time where, uh, you never know when you're a staff writer on a show like Conan, if you were right, or if Conan was right, because Conan has the last say, and that's what shows up on screen. on a show like Conan if you were right or if Conan was right because Conan has the last say and that's what shows up on screen so one time the editors screwed up on a bit I did on Conan

and they didn't cut one of the beats and then it went on air and it actually did well and it was like the most satisfying thing in my entire life but um but I remember we got in an argument with uh what was the one where it where uh leslie it was it was the swedish guy's birthday and there was a not a pergola but uh oh yeah it was called was that 93 whatever whatever meetings one was like what was that called that might have been it was like it was about a gazebo it was about a gaze. So there was a gazebo that was a historic gazebo and Leslie wanted to protect it. But really what she was trying to do was protect her relationship with Ann Perkins. There was like an emotional story that very closely mirrored the what we called the cover story, which was like the business story. Every episode had a cover story, which was what Leslie is doing.

She's building a park today. She's tearing down a structure. She's taking a bill against Sweetums to the city council. That was called the cover story. And then simultaneously, there'd be an emotional story. And the most elegant times, they'd sort of mirror each other in some way. And sometimes they wouldn't. Sometimes it'd be like she'd get a win in the emotional story and she'd get a loss in the cover story or vice versa. Anyway, in that story, I remember I had pitched that the act two act break, which is the all is lost moment, was that she chained herself to a gate, the gate at the entryway to the um to the swedum's guy's mansion it was like a classic she's chained against it and the pitch was that it instead of opening she was chained in the middle of it and it looked like it was two doors opening turnbill mansion greg levine is telling us was the

name greg levine the best in the biz. It looked like it was two doors that opened up from the middle, but that was just an optical illusion. It actually swung all the way from one hinge, so she was just chained to the fence, and then the whole fence opened with her on it. And we, as a room,

we really liked that. That was like what we built the episode around and i remember mike for some reason didn't like the pitch and then we tabled the draft without that and it didn't do well and he was like okay we'll put in the thing that was one of my few moments of time because mike generally was like so so the episode is called 94 meetings i was actually i was trying searching for the right number but it it's 94 Meetings in season two. But I love, one of the things, Dan, that is very on character for you, you have a specific memory of when you were right.

You're like, I was right about that one. I'm a younger sibling. You got it, I know, right? Yeah, Dan has a very successful older sibling, so, you know, he's always, yeah, he's like,'s always... The moments that I was right are so few and far between. I was right. No, but that is an incredible... You have an eidetic memory for that.

And that's also one of the reasons you're a great writer. It's like you remember everything. You have this knowledge of it and you know why it works, right? And in no way do I want to... I mean, Mike was like a Jedi. Yeah, yeah. Especially like season two. It was unbelievable. Mike would sit at the head of the table at an iMac. And then his iMac had, or whoever was running the room would sit there. And that computer was connected to a bunch of monitors that didn't have keyboards. So those monitors just displayed, there were eight monitors around the room, around the table. So we were all sitting at our own place, spacing a monitor and Mike would type in whatever pitches he wanted,

uh, or whatever he wanted to do. And so you would also just watch him. It was like you were watching his monitor and he, I mean, in season two, he was so locked. I mean, in general, he was the whole time, but it was like so stunning as he's due. He'd be able to like take a line from page three and then move it to page 27 then take a whole section from 27 move it to 13 you every writer was just like what the hell's going on and then it would end up being this kind of perfect script i don't know it was it was crazy and then season six it was like okay i'm looking at the Red Sox scores. I'm watching. I'm tweeting about politics. But yeah, no, it was very funny. You were talking about how Mike would come in and, and like, you know, just try to fix a story and then walk out. Cause you know, at a certain point, the showrunner is dealing with production, dealing with editing and dealing with writing. But a funny analog of that

was sometimes Greg Daniels would come in and just like, he loved to throw grenades. He was like, what if Leslie and Ron kiss in the scene? All right, see you guys. And I was like, wait, we don't want to do that. But he loved to, Greg likes to experiment. I mean, they're both like genius level writers, but Greg loves to just like mess with people and just be like, hey, do you remember when he pitched that there should be mole people living under the ground in Fonny? He wrote up a bunch of rules for the writer's room, and one of them was like,

no poop jokes. Absolutely no poop jokes. Immediately pitched the cold open. I think within an hour, the cold open where they threw bags of poop at each other on the trail. And all of us were like, no. You just said no poop jokes.

You said no poop jokes. Are there third rails? Like, that you just, you know someone's comic sensibility and you know you're gonna, you're gonna get shot down if you go into it. Like, I know Mike, and that's what's so shocking for me to watch these early episodes is there's a lot of talk about sex. A lot. Yeah, that went away. And that went away in a heartbeat. Like, like what, what are, what are the areas that you, like, what were the rules?

If there were, I want to know, no poop jokes. I mean, that's room by room, but you're saying in parks? Because that's room by room. I've been in rooms where, like, puns, if you made a pun, you'd be, like, thrown out the window. And obviously, there are other rooms where that is a prized thing. So it's very interesting to see room by room. I would say, would you, could you codify the rules? The rules.

So look, the first thing that jumps to mind is that eventually, you know, Mike became kind of the sole showrunner. Mike has a very sweet sensibility. He wants everyone to get along. He wants there to be a mutual understanding. And I have a similar sort of sensibility. It was like sort of optimistic and sort of, you know,

people understanding each other, people being open-minded. So any sort of pitch where it's like it ends and like people hate each other or there's like a horrible fight and, you know, like that's not going to get in the show. And to its credit, like the show knows what it is by that time, right? The show is about people who disagree but get along and work together. Like that is the show. So, you know, that's more of a larger sort of content rule,

but the show is not going to be about people screaming and fighting and not getting along. As far as topics and stuff, like third rail, yeah, we didn't go very dirty. It was a very sort of kind of upbeat, actually family-friendly show in some ways. We were also really, especially early on, conscious of being apolitical.

Even though it is a political show and i think a lot of people would say it's a very liberal show and it's ideal is at its core a liberal ideal which is that government can be a positive force in people's lives we were very purposefully non-political she was not a democrat or a republican in those first years certainly yes and and it's and it's it's it's actually wild to see her name check both Democrats and Republicans, because in 2021, it would be a difficult position and it would be their cognitive dissonance

of sort of someone saying that. She's like, my idols are Nancy Pelosi and Condoleezza Rice. And it was like, wait, what? That makes no sense. But I mean, like when we did the gay penguin episode, I think she never comes out and says, I'm in favor of gay marriage.

And that was, you know, that, but that was, that was the time, man. It was not like an overtly political time. It'd be weird. But times have changed, man. Times have changed. You're allowed to do that stuff. So, you know, that was the other thing. We had a little trick at parks, which you can't do on a lot of shows, which was any controversial episode we would just make about animals.

Yes. You know what joke I can't believe we did was Donna, Donna Meagle voted for David Duke. Do you remember that? What? What was the justification? It was taxes or something? What was it?

I liked his tax policy. That's insane. That's really funny. Different time, different time. I like his tax policy. I can't believe that got in the cut. By the way,

brief, brief cul-de-sac. Yeah. My pitch for the end of Chris Traeger was that he comes back in the finale. He's doing a talking head. You're hearing a metal tapping sound on the hallway.

And he says, he says, my life has been exceptional. It is literally, it literally could not be better. I'm sure obviously Rob could do this better. I was hit by a truck. I lost could not be better. I'm sure obviously Rob could do this better. I was hit by a truck. I lost both of my legs. But the legs that

science has given me are even better. And then he turns around and runs off on those Oscar Pistorius blades. And he like wins the Olympic gold medal. Yeah. So that was my pitch. This is an example of me being wrong, clearly.

And I pitched that to, to Mike, I'd say continually from season four on, including after I'd left the show. And Mike, but that's an example of the writers being like, yeah, that,

that would be funny. And, uh, and he would be swaying gently back and forth. Anyway, a lot of people wanted to know who, uh, Dr. Richard Nygaard was Chris Traeger's. That would be funny. And he would be swaying gently back and forth. Anyway. A lot of people wanted to know who Dr. Richard Nygaard was, Chris Traeger's longtime psychiatrist. And we were talking.

I know we're jumping way ahead, but it makes me laugh. We were talking about who Dr. Richard Nygaard was. And my pitch was that it would be Leonard Nimoy. But then, Dan, I think it was your pitch. I think that Dr. Richard Nygaard would be revealed to be Chris Traeger. Yes. We talked a lot about Dr. Richard Nygaard being you in a wig, like you talking in a mirror and then putting on a wig and answering and psychologically analyzing.

That was one of our favorite things to talk about because he keeps talking about Dr. Richard Nygaard. It's a funny name, don't know dr richard neigard and then he every he revealed he's always talking to himself in a mirror but it was just made me made me laugh so much so stupid Should we do a Pontytown Haul with Dan Gore, our very special guest today? Oh, we should. Hell yeah. Have you guys tried this out before? Am I the guinea pig for this segment? We've done it a couple times.

God damn it. You're the first guest to pig for this segment? We've done it a couple times. Oh, god damn it. You're the first guest to do it, though. We've done it. All right. We've never put someone new to the full... Because town halls, man, you know how... You've written Pawnee town halls. They can be crazy.

Yes. Yeah. This one comes from Peter from Riverside. Who in the cast is most and least like their character portrayed in the show? Very good question. That's a really good question. Oh, wow. Huh.

That's tough because on Parks, we really wrote towards the characters in a lot of ways. I mean, towards the actors in a lot of ways. I mean, I could answer that on Brooklyn in a heartbeat, but that is much tougher. I'd say by the end of the series, Offerman was probably closest to his character. I mean, I feel like there was like a mind melt between the character and the actor.

Least like their character, the cop out is to say Donna. Because again, I don't think there's any way Retta would have voted for David Duke. Whereas, again, I don't think there's any way Retta would have voted for David Duke. Uh, whereas again,

Donna did, um, Gary, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry Gergich would be for me. Cause he's on the show. He's this insane,

sad sack crapped upon disrespected. But then I love at the end, he's got the most beautiful wonderful life of anybody in the show but but I think Jim O'Hare is is nothing like that character he he's just a great actor he's beloved he's beloved everyone loves him he's the nicest guy everyone loves him yeah the character is the largest penis in Pawnee, remember? Yeah. That's canon. I would say season one, maybe Leslie, because Amy Poehler is not a lovable loser.

She's a lovable winner, you know? That is weirdly like, and by the way, just quickly running through the other ones, like there are definitely elements of Aziz in Tom, and there are definitely elements of you, Rob, and Chris, I think. I think there's elements. Sure, for sure. Elements, and i think

i i was actually going to say amy and leslie because because leslie is very sort of authoritative in the show but they're but she's but leslie's kind of a dork and amy is really cool so i think they're actually pretty different but they're both i would agree with that but i do think they're both doers you know they are people who who like have big ideas and get stuff done and are incredibly competent and well-liked and rally people to their cause so i i agree with you but it's not stark it's not like yes it's it's not like like on brooklyn when stephanie beatriz who plays rosa turns off her rosa voice she's got like a high-pitched, very sweet-sounding voice. And you're like, what the fuck is going on?

There's nobody where you were like, holy cow, that's not the same person. Yeah. They're leaders. They're both leaders. And they're both lost. But that's also a testament to Mike and Greg, because we met with the actors a lot. Yes. And we like really incorporated their sort of mannerisms and tics and stuff.

I remember Aubrey telling us a story about how she followed her principal home from school in a cardboard box. She got into a cardboard box and then every time the principal took two steps, she would poke out of the box, move the box two steps, and then drop back down in the cardboard box. So when the principal turned around,

she would just see a closed cardboard box. God, we- You could definitely have had April do that. I mean, we didn't, we didn't even mention April and Aubrey. That's very, I mean, there is, there's obviously similarities there.

And then Pratt had such a strong personality. We made Andy more like him. We just like he, he, and then, although as Rob said, he was really close. Yes,

he was close. There's a lot of him that he was really close. And, and Adam Scott also, there's some of Adam Scott and Ben. I mean, he's not as nerdy as Ben, but just him saying, him saying good lord is like that.

He would say that in real life. He would do that on the show. And it's like, yeah, that is. And his obsession with REM. Yes, that's true. Letters to Cleo. Letters to Cleo. You know what?

His hair. There's no starker contrast than Ben Wyatt's hair and Adam Scott's hair. And I would really like I'd see Adam and I'd be like, whoa! Because Adam has kind of like flat hair that comes down. Very stylish, still looks great. Love you, Adam Scott. And then Ben had that like fulsome sort of pompadour, you know? That was shocking.

That was great acting. Great acting. It's true. When meeting the character, if you were to meet all these actors on the street, everybody kind of looks like the way they look, except for Adam Scott. Adam Scott does not have that Ben Wyatt hair.

I had the same reaction when I saw him without hair and makeup for the first time. I was like. Here's the crazy thing. That is just acting. They do not do that to his hair. You say to him, be Ben. Strict control. It just, yeah.

It's like a porcupine. It's like a porcupine. But yeah. Adam also like dresses cool and stuff. He's like kind of a cool dad. Well, it was good having you, Dan. We'll talk again soon. It was good seeing you again.

And yeah, you're welcome back anytime. Thank you so much. So fun. Thanks for listening. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend. Thanks to producer Greg and producer Schulte. Goodbye from Pawnee. Mr. Schulte, goodbye for Pawnee.

This episode of Parks and Recollection is produced by Tamika Adams, Greg Levine, and me, Rob Schulte. Our coordinating producer is Lisa Byrne. The podcast is executive produced by Alan Yang for Alan Yang Productions, Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Jeff Ross, Adam Sachs, and Joanna Solitaroff at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. Gina Batista, Paula Davis, and Britt Kahn are our talent bookers. The theme song is by Mouse Rat, a.k.a. Mark Rivers,

with additional tracks composed by John Danek. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on Parks and Recollection. Chris Traeger may not have much of a sweet tooth, but I, Robert Bofsefias Lowe, have one. And that's why I'm proud to say, and compensated in a very, very, very, very big way by the Newport family, that Sweetums is the official candy company of Parks and Recollection. With their commitment to a whole body of health, of all those who enjoy their sugar delivery items, Sweetums takes the cake. And let me just say, I am obsessed with their Nutri-Young energy bars.

Those things are healthy and delicious. Every morning, I put five of those bags out as I head out of the house for the day. And if they are not all gone by noon, then something is very seriously wrong. Best thing since eating them is that I haven't slept better from 3 to 5 p.m. in my life. And who doesn't love an extremely long, unproductive midday nap? I know I do. That's why Sweetums is my favorite Pawnee company. And so why don't all of our listeners out there head on over to Apple Podcasts, leave a five-star review for us, and then while you're there, let us know what your favorite Pawnee company or item is. Though, like I said, I am contractually obligated to repeat, there is nothing better than Sweetums.

Because if you can't beat them, Sweetums. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.