Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Alison Fragale on How You Master the Science of Status for Success EP 506

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

In this episode of Passion Struck, we delve into the groundbreaking insights of behavioral scientist Alison Fragale, author of Likeable Badass. Fragale reveals how women can elevate their workplace status and secure career success by mastering the delicate balance of warmth and assertiveness. Drawing from decades of research, she offers practical strategies and actionable advice to help women navigate office politics, earn recognition, and achieve a fulfilling career. Discover how to transform perceptions, negotiate effectively, and rise to the top with Fragale’s proven playbook for professional advancement.Full show notes and resources:  https://passionstruck.com/alison-fragale-master-science-status-for-success/SponsorsBabbel: Unlock the power of learning a new language with Babbel's innovative system. Passion Struck listeners can get 60% off their subscription at Babbel.com/PASSION.Hims: Regrow your hair before it's too late! Start your free online visit today at Hims.com/PASSIONSTRUCK.Quince: Experience luxury for less with Quince's premium products at radically low prices. Enjoy free shipping and 365-day returns at Quince.com/PASSION.For more information about our sponsors and promo codes, visit: passionstruck.com/dealsIn this episode, you will learn:Mastering the science of status: Understand how blending assertiveness and warmth can lead to greater respect and influence in the workplace.Balancing likability and capability: Cultivate both traits to gain value and respect from peers and leaders.Unlocking potential through intentionality: John R. Miles shares the mission of Passion Struck in helping individuals realize their potential with purpose and direction.Managing dual careers: Alison shares strategies on developing remote work arrangements and managing career-family balance before it became mainstream.Key themes from “Likeable Badass”: Grasp the difference between status and power and how they impact career advancement.Overcoming the competence-likability bind: Use specific strategies to showcase competence without sacrificing likability.Tackling limiting mindsets: Address the five limiting beliefs that hinder the journey to becoming a likable badass.Connect with Alison Fragale: https://alisonfragale.com/Order Passion StruckUnlock the principles that will transform your life! Order my book, Passion Struck: Twelve Powerful Principles to Unlock Your Purpose and Ignite Your Most Intentional Life. Recognized as a 2024 must-read by the Next Big Idea Club, this book has earned accolades such as the Business Minds Best Book Award, the Eric Hoffer Award, and the Non-Fiction Book Awards Gold Medal. Order your copy today and ignite your journey toward intentional living!Catch More Passion StruckMy solo episode on How To Live Intentionally With Passion And PerseveranceCan’t miss my episode withHilary Billings on the Psychology of Attention, Mastering Short-Form Video, and Personal Brand BuildingWatch my episode with Jen Gottlieb on How to Create Your Own Success by Being SeenDiscover my interview with Rory Vaden On How To Find Your Uniqueness And Exploit It In The Service Of OthersCatch my interview with Rusty Shelton on How You Build Your Authority AdvantageIf you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review! Even one sentence helps. Be sure to include your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can personally thank you!

Coming up next on Passion Struck. If we look at the science of status, what leads somebody to be respected? Well, we respect people who are assertive and capable more than people who aren't. And we respect people who are warm and giving and other oriented more than people who aren't. So when you show up as likeable and badass, you've done the science-based thing, the most controllable science-based thing that you have to get other people to value and respect you. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice

for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now let's go out there and become Passionstruck. Hey, Passionstruck family. I am thrilled to welcome you back to episode 506.

First off, a huge shout out to each and every one of you who turns in every week, eager to grow, to learn, and to transform. You're the heartbeat of this community, and your energy keeps us going strong. If you're new here, welcome to the PassionStruck movement. We are so glad to have you. For those thinking about spreading the word,

which we absolutely love, we've made it super easy with our episode starter packs. With over 500 episodes, I know it can be hard to know where to dive in. So we've curated playlists just for you. Whether you're passionate about behavioral science, mental or physical health, leadership, or hearing from powerhouse women or astronauts, we've got a pack that's perfect for you.

Check them out on Spotify or head to passionstruck.com slash starter packs. Before we jump into today's episode, I want to give a quick shout out to our recent conversation with Lieutenant Commander Dan Knosson. If you missed it, you're missing out on one of the most inspiring stories we've ever featured. Dan's journey from the Naval Academy to Navy SEAL to Paralympic Champion is a testament to the power of resilience and determination. His insights on overcoming adversity are sure to leave you motivated to take on whatever challenges come your way. And as always, your ratings, reviews, and feedback mean everything to us. If today's episode resonates with you, please leave us a five-star review and share it with your friends and

family. Your support not only helps us, but also our incredible guests. Now, let's move on to today's exciting guest. I am thrilled to welcome Alison Frugal, the Mary Farley Ames Lee Distinguished Scholar of Organizational Behavior at UNC Chapel Hills Keenan Flagler Business School. Alison is not just a leading research psychologist and award-winning professor,

she's also an international keynote speaker and the author of the powerful new book, Likeable Badass, How Women Get the Success They Deserve. In this episode, Alison will challenge everything you thought you knew about power, status, and influence. Concepts that are not just critical in the workplace, but also in every aspect of our lives.

We'll explore why status can be more impactful than power and how understanding this dynamic can transform your career and personal life. Allison's insights will uncover the hidden forces that shape how we're perceived and valued by others, and she'll share actionable strategies that anyone, especially women, can use to navigate these complexities with confidence and grace. You'll discover why being competent isn't enough, how to escape the competence-likability bind, and why the advice, not to care what others think, might be competent isn't enough. How to escape the competence-likeability bind, and why the advice not to care what others think might be leading you astray. Plus, Allison will provide game-changing tips on how to negotiate with authority even in

the toughest situations, and how to build a personal brand that commands respect and recognition. It's not just a conversation. It's a masterclass in elevating your status, negotiating like a pro, and thriving in environments that often seem stacked against you. Whether you're just starting your career, making a pivot, or looking to boost your influence in your current role, Alison's advice will arm you

with the tools to become the likable badass you were always meant to be. Get ready for a thought-provoking and action-packed episode that could change the way you approach both your career and your life. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey

to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so honored today to have Alison Fregale on Passion Struck. Welcome Alison. Thank you for having me. So happy to be here. Alison, I think you and I

Met each other through Aaron oevia who I loved having on this podcast I love how he studies the things we love and oftentimes these aren't people they're actually objects Material things and it's such an interesting science and it's always interesting to me how people get into the different things that they study. I believe we all have mentors who've had a profound impact on who we become. I wanted to talk to you about one of yours. How did Margaret Ann Neal, your advisor during your PhD at Stanford,

influence your study on gender differences and the work that you do now in organizational behavior. Thank you for asking. So Maggie, I went to graduate school to work with my advisor who is world-renowned in studying negotiation, which is a topic that I was interested in and have taught for 20-plus years as a professor myself. And a couple interesting things that happened when I first met her that were responsible for a lot of the things that I do now. The very first task that she ever gave me when I was a graduate student was what I call a status building task. She basically said I'm finishing up a

project, I'm kind of busy, and I want you to go knock on the doors of every other professor here and I want you to offer to do work for them and no matter what they offer you to do, no matter how menial, you're gonna say yes, and you're gonna do it and ask for nothing in return. And a couple of things happened for that. One was I met another professor, Laura Tiedens, who studied this whole idea of status,

which is really central to my work now. And it wasn't something I'd come into graduate school thinking about, but I got exposed and fascinated by this idea of how much other people respect us and the differences between status and power. And so one, Maggie's guidance set me on a research path that still informs the behavioral science that I'm so excited about today. But also that task of go knock on doors and do things for other people and don't ask for anything in return, it wasn't framed exactly in that language, but it was a task of building my network,

of earning respect of other people, of doing good for the world. And what Maggie ended up being really brilliant at being able to teach me and other people who are fortunate enough to work with her was how to think about the relationships that you're in and add authentic value in a strategic way. And I got to bring together from my research experience and then my lived experience working under her what that does to actually build your status and get other people to respect you. So I always think in so many different ways the work that I do wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had Maggie in my life when I was in my early 20s.

And I just have to ask, my first cousin went to Stanford Law School and tells me often about the different dimensions that he had from his education at Stanford. And one of the things he really liked to explore during his time there was the D school, which I'm not sure you got to partake in. But can you tell me some of your fondest memories of going through your PhD at the school? Absolutely. Yeah, the D school wasn't there when I was there.

I started in 1999. And so here's a funny story. I was fortunate to have a couple of choices where I went to graduate school. I had never spent much time in California. I grew up on the East Coast. I went to visit Stanford after I was admitted. They put me in the MBA student dorm and the dorm, very California style, has had a big outdoor atrium area that kind of the doors to the rooms faced in and there were palm trees growing out of it. And I said there are palm trees in the dorms. I have to go here. So it was such an impactful experience in my life and I laughed that I picked it because there were palm trees.

I picked it also because I was really excited to work with Maggie, my advisor. Things that had a tremendous amount of impact on me were just the great collaboration and all the amazing behavioral scientists who were there and all of the different networks and relationships that I was able to create that are really very long-lasting. So it wasn't just the palm trees,

but I always think graduate school's a long time, so I always tell people it's a good part of your life that you're spending, and you want to spend it doing work you love with people you love. So if you pick based on the people, then you can never go wrong. His story was equally interesting. He graduated from Duke,

but then got picked up for a scholarship to go to Cambridge. And when he came out of Cambridge, he was looking at different law schools, had gotten into Yale and a bunch of the East Coast schools. But Stanford had a program where they would count his year at Cambridge to his three years of law school. So he only had to do two.

And he thought it was gonna be such a great thing, but he didn't realize how far behind it put him to his other classmates because what he learned at Stanford, I mean, what he learned at Stanford was completely different than the philosophy degree he was getting at Cambridge. Anyway. These things, they work out in funny ways. So something that caught my eye is my siblings and I are all

named after the children of President John F. Kennedy. So I'm John, my sister was Carolyn, my brother, Patrick, and many people don't know of Patrick because he passed away, the Kennedy son when he was young. I understand you gave your kids different names, but in their case, they're based off of famous athletes. For instance, if I have it right, your oldest son is Jordan Bradshaw. Can you tell me a little bit about how you came

to that naming convention? OK, so this is a decision made in a bar. I met my husband when we were in graduate school. We both went to Stanford in different programs. And long before I had decided I would marry him or really have kids, we were just having a hypothetical conversation in a bar that somehow meandered to naming children.

And I said, all the people in my family who I really love, they have terrible names that I wouldn't use. And the people in my family who have good names, I don't really love them. I can't imagine naming after them. And so we started talking about what we would do. And my husband's from Chicago, born and raised. I'm from Pittsburgh. So we started talking about athlete names. And so Michael Jordan, also a nod to UNC where I've been a professor for 20 years, we're like, oh, Jordan's a good name. And we could be boy, girl, you can name any kid Jordan. And then we started going on and on. Okay, well, we could have a Peyton for Walter Peyton.

And I was like, that's a good name. That could be a boy or girl name. And we stopped there and years later, that was probably five, eight years before we had kids. Years later when we had kids and we started talking about names, you know, I spent a whole day looking through a book of baby names.

I had only made it through the A's and I came up with a couple of ideas and my husband came home and rejected all of them. I said, forget it. This is not gonna work. What about that whole idea of the sports names? He was like, I'm on board So we had Jordan and Peyton and then we have a third a daughter and her name is Maddox We call her Maddie for Greg Maddox of the Cubs slash Braves and then they all have Pittsburgh Steelers middle names Which was my doing all kind of from our areas era. So we have a Bradshaw, a Harris and a mean Joe green.

I love it. And for those of you who don't remember Greg Maddox, when I look at his statistics, sometimes it is unbelievable how good a pitcher that he was back in the day. And when you think about it, those three starting pitchers that the Braves had, I can't believe that they didn't win five World Series. They had such a dominant starting pitching lineup. It's incredible when you look back. Totally. And when we did this whole thing, we lived in North Carolina and we didn't think we would ever live in Chicago, but as life has moved us on, we now currently live in Chicago. And so now

I said, we look like lunatics because we live in Chicago with three kids named after Chicago athletes. But funny enough, in all the years we've lived here, not one person has ever been introduced like, hey, Jordan, Peyton Maddox. And the light bulb hasn't gone off for anybody. I love it.

Well, I think if my parents had a do-over, they would have probably named us after famous University of Michigan graduates, because they are two of the biggest Michigan fans. I know of, and my mom grew up in Glenview. So, amazing. Love it. So I did want to ask you about that because what you just said about North Carolina and Chicago, because you've been teaching at the university in

North Carolina for a while now, but you're one of the few professors I know who's able to do this sort of remote and I got to imagine it's not all remote. So you're probably on a plane a lot. Can you tell us how you came up with that interesting work arrangement? I always joke that I was remote before remote was cool. We did this pre COVID. What had happened was my husband and I were managing dual career.

She had been in North Carolina for a long time. He had ran a company and a firm in Chicago offered to buy it. And it was a professionally interesting opportunity. And it was also a personally interesting opportunity because as I said, my husband born and raised in Chicago had always had a real interest in living here. And I had worked in Chicago as a consultant before I became an academic.

So we loved it. And at the time our kids were six, three, and zero. We moved when my daughter was six weeks old, which is not something I highly recommend. And I said, but this point, our kids are pretty easy to move. And I said something to him that actually something I talk about in the context of all kinds of decisions, including using your status, which is I said, I need you to think about your rocking chair. Like you get toward the end of your sunset years, your end of your life. And when you're sitting in your

rocking chair, like on your porch, you've retired looking out. I'm like, is the rocking chair in North Carolina? And he said, probably not. And I said, well, then if the rocking chair is not in North Carolina, then this is kind of a good time to do it. And so I did it with a lot of uncertainty as to what would happen with my career. I was fortunate to be a tenured professor at the time. And so I knew I couldn't really get fired, but I thought, how am I going to make this work? And I thought, I'm just going to do one year at a time.

And I did again, I did it with an infant. So that was a bit challenging. But like a variety of different things started to happen that I actually think have helped me professionally and helped me advise women, which is what I spent a lot of different things started to happen that I actually think have helped me professionally and helped me advise women, which is what I spend a lot of time doing. And that is I started to really understand what were high value uses of my time. I started to understand how to build relationships

and keep them really strong, even if you're not seeing everybody face to face and every day. So I got a couple of year head start on a lot of the things that people had to learn in COVID. I was one of the few people who had a working Zoom account when COVID actually started and an actual home office.

So I do travel back and forth. And we've kind of made it work. So I think I'm hitting my 10th year. Yeah, so I've been doing remote almost as long as I was in North Carolina. Well, I think you and BJ Fogg are living proof that it can work, because he does most of his year in Hawaii so he can surf. So it works for both of you. He's winning.

Okay. Let's just be clear on all the ways, but I do love it. So I want to jump into the core of our discussion today. I'm holding up this gorgeous brand new book of yours, Likeable Badass, How Women Get the Success That They Deserve, which when this podcast comes out will be out. If you look closely at my book, it says bound gallery, not for sale. So I've been fortunate enough to get this book ahead of time,

which I feel very flattered about. But you start the book off by having a conversation where you're with a number of business school colleagues. And what you're talking about is a leadership program for National Banks, Rising Stars, where you're slated to be one of the faculty members teaching in the program. And as I understand it, the meeting planners emphasized a quote unquote solution focused approach, which caught your eye and led you to start thinking about the unfair challenges that women face in businesses and in leadership in general. Can you share how that moment became a catalyst for not only this book, but a lot of the research that you do?

Absolutely. So like many women, I have existed in professional audiences of men, whether that was when I was a management consultant or I was a math major or I was a professor where the faculty tend to trend male, but also the student body in many programs like UNC has more men than women. So I was, and in corporate development programs,

when we train leaders and we invest in our leaders, always more men than women. So I was, and in corporate development programs, when we train leaders and we invest in our leaders, always more men than women. So I was used to that. I was comfortable with it. I didn't really think much about it. And when I started, I've been between school and being a professor 25 plus years. So at that time, there weren't as many,

there weren't ERGs that were having people invest in them and bringing in speakers. There wasn't as much of that. So most of the leadership people invest in them and bringing in speakers. There wasn't as much of that. So most of the leadership development was reserved for senior leaders in organizations and they were mainly men. And there weren't enough companies that were big enough or were invested enough in developing female talent specifically, but they were putting on programs for them. But along came one. And so I didn't really think much of it because I had spoken to a lot of companies before. And I was sitting in this meeting, listening toof-the-mill meeting. What are we going to do? Who's going to teach

what? Who says what? Et cetera. And I didn't have much of a role, but then when they started talking about what they really wanted, the sponsors of the program, they said, we really want it to be solution-focused. And I just caught my attention and I thought solution-focused. Solution implies that there's a problem. And I also was caught by the idea that I didn't have to wonder what was the problem. What did they mean? They were talking about this general gender-based set

of challenges that women have that emanate from, again, from gender bias and all kinds of other socially constructed beliefs. I got it. And I thought, isn't that like really interesting, right? We're just, we're acknowledging that there's a problem, but we're not really naming it. And they wanted solutions. But at the same time, what I was also struck by was this idea that they were investing a lot of money into it, but they were also really talking about it in a way

that thought there's nothing we can do. Like we can't really fix all of the gender related challenges. And I understood where they were coming from. But I also felt, based both on science and my lived experience, I said, no, that's not true. Behavioral science is amazing. That's what you and I have in common, is we just are endlessly fascinated by this field. And what I love about it is its ability

to make our lives better. And I thought behavioral science has a lot to say about one, why there are problems that exist for certain categories of people and not for others, not just women. And also behavioral science says a lot about what we can do about it. It doesn't mean it's always easy, doesn't mean it's 100% successful, but there's a lot of solutions there. And so I really felt called in that conversation and in many others that I've had since to be a voice of science-based optimism to say, look, I am not going to deny that certain people have more challenges than other people, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's

their fate. And I really believe that good behavioral science applied consistently can get us really good outcomes. That's what I love about it. No, it was. This whole podcast is about intentional behavior change, which is all based on the bedrock of behavior science. So I am a huge fan of this and anyone who tunes into this podcast,

I hope loves it because that's the whole lens that we do this podcast with. So the title of your book is really intriguing and I'll just share it one more time so everyone can see it Likeable badass. Can you explain how you came up with that name and what it means? So it's a obviously it's a catchy term and people are often drawn to the book because of it But it has a meaning that's rooted in psychology So the fundamental idea of this book is the science of status. Status is how much other people respect and regard you. This is something that we judge all people. We do it to other people, they do it to us.

We are judging how much we value people. But those judgments are not random. Those judgments are based on two dimensions. And my catchy term for the two dimensions is how likable and badass you are. The psychological names that we tend to use when we study them, well, the likable dimension is going to be our dimension of warmth. Do you care about people other than yourself?

Are you easy to get along with? Do people enjoy being in your presence? That dimension really matters. And then the other dimension, the badass dimension, is going to be, I call it assertiveness. It's how good you are controlling your environment, how able you are to get things done. Are you competent? Are you decisive?

Are you organized? Are you persistent? If I try and give you a task, can I trust that you'll do it? And so those two dimensions are the foundation of what's called in psychology, the interpersonal circumplex of person perception. And I always joke, I could have called the book that, but I don't think that anyone would have been interested in learning more.

So likable badass was always my term of doing what we know from research. One, that two things, one that people want to do. So if you say to people, you could be assertive or submissive, you could be warm or cold, which ones do you want? Everyone always picks, I want assertive warmth, right? I wanna be a person who gets stuff done

and is good to other people. So everyone's going for that spot. And if we look at the science of status, what leads somebody to be respected? Well, we respect people who are assertive and capable more than people who aren't. And we respect people who are warm and giving and other-oriented more than people who aren't. So when you show up as likable and badass, you've done the science-based thing, the most controllable science-based thing that you have to get other people to value and respect you. So it's catchy, but I unpack in the book,

what does that actually mean? And there's a lot of science behind it. And then we talk about, perhaps what we will talk about, the million dollar question was, well, especially for women or for anybody who struggled, well, how do you get there? And that's really what the crux of it's about. So we're definitely going to get there. I like how in the opening chapter, you highlight that in your research and when you're talking to women,

they rattle off a million of sources of disadvantage. But as you were just talking about, and to simplify this for the listeners, it really comes down to two, status and power. So something you mentioned in the book that I wanted to ask you is about is how does the power first, status second mentality actually contradict with science? with science. Right. So status is how much people respect us. Power is the resources that we control. So someone has power when they control resources that you value. So I always joke you, if you have the car keys and you have a teenager, that the holding the keys could be a source of power if you're at work and you have the authority to give someone a good review or a bad one to

promote them or not, to hire and fire, to spend the budget. All those different things are sources of control. And so when we think about advancing people in a hierarchy and an organization, like promoting people, which is something women struggle with relative to their equally talented male counterparts, and that we desire, a promotion is essentially a movement in power. It's giving you more control over more resources that matter. Money is a, I don't know if it's still in the book, but this quote, money is power at its most liquid, which I think is a great way to think about it, right? Money is a resource that everyone values, and when you control money, whether at work or in your personal life, you have control over the most valued liquid resource there is. And so that's what power is.

And so we have spent a lot of time, myself included, trying to help women solve two very obvious problems, right? Pay equity and representation, right? We have not an equal number of women represented in organizations relative to their talent and contributions. And women are underpaid relative to their talent and contributions, and women are underpaid relative to men for the same work. So we know that those are problems, and they're big problems, and we've spent a lot of attention on them. But if we look at all the different stats

and data, we're not making great progress on those. Women are more educated than men on average. Women are consistently rated as equal or better leaders, but we're not seeing the movement. And what I was really struck by is that we have an understanding in psychology that hadn't quite made its way into the popular discourse yet of, well, what else could be explaining that? Because we're working on it. We've educated women, they're certainly talented,

we can measure it and you're still not changing it. And the variable that hadn't been discussed, and I'm trying to change that narrative, is this idea of status, which we study a lot and I'm one of those people, is the idea that we often say, yes, I want to be respected. I don't want to be interrupted. I don't want to be mansplained. I don't want to be contradicted or ignored or any of those things. But what if I could just get promoted and paid? Fine, I'll live with all of that. And I can understand that mentality of this. This is my most important problem.

Like just keep your respect, just pay me. But the challenge of that's what I talk about. That's what I mean by power first is I'm trying to get more resources and maybe people will value me or maybe they don't, but heck with that. That's a power first mentality. And the challenge of that is that it contradicts what we understand in psychology of how power gets awarded.

Generally, when we give resources to somebody, like if I'm gonna give my teenager the car keys, I'm not gonna give them to him unless I think he's going to use them responsibly. He's going to use them for good. So when we think about giving resources to another person, one of the things we're going to figure out is do I value them? Do I respect them? Do I see them as very capable? Do I see them as concerned about other people than themselves? The more I do, the more I'll want to give them resources. So when we

start to focus on status, understand what it is, understand how we can manage our own. And if we can manage our own so that more people have more respect and regard for us, the power problem starts to solve itself. Because if whatever it is that you're asking for that you want, and the person looking at you says, I see you as a very valuable person, I hold you in very high regard, they're much more likely to give you the resources

that you wanna control. And that's what I mean by status first is I care deeply about getting women more power. I also care about getting them more status. But if we focus solely on the power and we don't bring status into the narrative, we've given people an incomplete understanding of how people make judgments and how people make decisions and it's holding them back. So by not ignoring power, but by bringing a focus on status into the equation, then I wanna help people be more effective in getting both

because they deserve both. Thank you for sharing that, Allison. And I love to highlight segments from books that catch my eyes. And I'm gonna just read this. The proof is all around us, you write. After interviewing hundreds, if not thousands of women in my work,

I know what sets these high status women apart. It's not intellect or you write charisma. On paper, the likable badasses look just like everybody else. They aren't better people. They're simply better what? Salespeople. So I liken in the book, Managing Status to Selling Vacuum Cleaners.

I said, if I give you a sales task, there are certain things you start to accept, and you're not bothered by them. You would accept the idea that a customer wouldn't necessarily know why your vacuum cleaner was amazing if you didn't tell them. You would accept that even when you told them the first time, not everybody would be tripping over themselves to buy.

You might get some resistance. You might have to have a slightly different sales pitch with customer A than customer B. And status exists in other people's minds. I always say you cannot force another person to respect you any more than you can force a customer to buy a vacuum cleaner. The best that you can do is show up in a way that says, if that person is persuadable, I understand how they think and I know what it's going to take to persuade them and I'm going to do it.

And so that sales analogy of thinking about it, to me, if we buy into it, helps us understand that we cannot be as valued as we deserve to be without doing a little bit of selling. And I can see the real distinction. And so what's interesting as an example, I get to talk to a lot of women who are in my programs, whether they are getting a degree or whether they're in an organization. And what you'll see is the people who sit next to each other, they're, again, indistinguishable on paper. They've kind of come from the same place. They're in the same degree program. They're in the same organization. They have the same title.

And sometimes people feel like they're really struggling and other people feel like they're really sailing and thriving. And that is the difference that I've really been able to observe and help people articulate and unpack. Because one of the things, when I talk to a lot of women, is they're doing stuff that's helping them get good or bad outcomes, but they don't always have the science or the language or the understanding to know what the thing is. They just think

It's either easy for me or it's hard and I help people Unpack it so that other people could replicate it And think about what are the specific behaviors that are helping you be a good salesperson to sell yourself as a person worthy of respect in others eyes. So I don't want to ruin this book for listeners because I think it's got so much valuable information. So I'm going to selectively pick some things here as, as like a teaser. One of the things in your second chapter that I liked is you have this warm, cold continuum, which I thought was an interesting perspective of kind of, as

you call it, social functioning. Can you explain what this is and a key takeaway for listeners? So that's essentially the warm, cold continuum is the likable dimension. So I call it likable, but again, it's just, all these are just terms to capture a whole host of characteristics. So you can imagine at one end, warm is gonna be people who are other oriented, they add value to other people, they care about people other than themselves.

Warm, likable, sincere, honest, caring, helpful, those would all be characteristics of warmth. The cold would be the opposite endpoint, okay? So if you're all the way at the other end of a spectrum, you would be disagreeable, quarrelsome, difficult, unpleasant, hostile, all those things. No one's going for that. No one likes that. So that dimension is essentially the likable dimension. So here's one thing I

really want people to take from that, which is sometimes people ask me in a very curious way, like, Allison, women have been counseled and criticized for being likable for so long. And why did you put that in the title? Because there's a reactance that I 100% empathize with when someone tells you you should be more likable, you're not likable enough. It's often rooted in bias, it's super frustrating, it's unfair. But here's the psychological reality, which is that every human being prefers interacting with people who are on the warm end of the spectrum than cold, regardless of their gender. Warm is very positively valence.

We like it, we care about it, we seek it out. Liking, if we look at Bob Cialdini's work, who's the king of science of influence, liking is one of the six most important principles he uncovers. We do things for people we like. And so what I always say is warmth, likability, those things are superpowers.

And we, nobody, regardless of gender or any other characteristic, should squander them. Because when you are perceived that way, it opens up so many doors for you. And even when it's frustrating, when you get feedback that you aren't likable enough or you should be more likable and it's rooted in bias, it also doesn't mean that is incorrect. You don't have to love the messenger, but the idea is that warmth is very positively received in all human beings. And the more we can show up in that way, the better for us. And I think women who are very warm, I always say it's a superpower.

Let's harness it. Let's not react against it. So two things I wanted to cover here. One, I love graphs and I especially like the four quadrant graphs and what I'm showing here in your book is one for those who are looking at this but for those who are listening to this, what you were just describing are two of the sides of this quadrant, cold and warmth and the other two are assertive and submissive. And what you're describing is the likable bad-ass zone is when you're in that right hand quadrant where you have friendly strength, which I think is a

great word for it. And I think that this is gender independent because I think having friendly strength would work if you're a male or a female. Do you agree with that? It absolutely does. You didn't directly ask this, but I'll tell you anyway. So one of the questions some of these people will wonder is, why did you write this book for women?

To your point, that's good for everybody. I said, I wrote the book for women because it's an audience I care about, and I can blend my lived experience as a woman with behavioral science, and that was my audience, and so that's who I'm writing to. But nothing in these pages is unique to any particular gender identity, anything else. So this idea of yes, everybody prefers to be the person with friendly strength and everybody prefers to interact with the person that has friendly strength. We value that likable badass territory for everybody. Now sometimes people say we care about value that likable badass territory for everybody. Now, sometimes people say we care about women being likable.

We don't care about whether men are likable. So it's not always exactly true. If I gave you a choice of two men to interact with, and one was very warm and one was very cold, nobody says, eh, I don't care. I'll take either one. Everyone prefers warmth. They want to interact with it. I think the challenge that some groups have, some people have,

women are one of them, is that if you have high status already, which being male is a higher status ascribed characteristic than being female, if you have high status already, people will assume that you have friendly strength. They will assume you're very assertive and you're very warm. And I'm sure your listeners, lovers of behavioral science, are very familiar with confirmation bias. Once you see somebody in a particular way, it's pretty easy to hold that image because of confirmation bias. Hypotheses are

hard to change. And so it's not that we don't care about whether a man is warm, it's just that we assume he is, and therefore every single thing he does is done through the lens of assumed warmth. And so that perception doesn't really change, even if he's not acting all that warm. With women, we have a harder challenge. That is we have to create the impression, not just hold the impression. And so that's why I don't try to sugarcoat the idea that some people have to work harder for the status that they get than other people, but you can still do it in ways that are authentic and practical and fun. But that's really the idea is, yes, it applies to everybody. We want it. But some people are bequested it or granted it more from the outset than our others. Okay. So we've kind of talked about this friendly strength

and the dimensions around it, but I think there's another thing that a lot of people face. Kind of what we've been talking about is likeability, but then the other thing that really comes into play is competence, and so you have this competence-likeability bind. Can you explain this challenge and how you advise women to overcome it? So competence is part of the assertiveness dimension. So essentially the competence likeability bind is I either get badass or I get likable but I don't get both. I've studied this in the book I unpacked the science of why does that happen and essentially what happens is of why does that happen? And essentially what happens is,

if a person does not start off with a lot of status, like women sometimes do, then we draw some judgments about them, and based on how much power they have. So when people tend to be, they're not really respected, but they don't control anything, they're seen as sweet and harmless.

That's where you get the, you're really likable, but you don't need presence, you're not confident enough, whatever it is. And when people lack status, but they have a lot of control over resources. So think TSA agents, DMV, which are popular occupations that tend to rank high on power and lower on status, maybe you're seen as capable, competent, assertive,

but you're cold and you're dominant. And you're, that's where you get labeled as aggressive versus assertive or hostile, things like that. And that's because people have a lot of power, but they don't have status. So what we see is for anybody who is seen as lower status, their power shifts how they're perceived and they end up in one of those dimensions. They get one of the dimensions, but not both. And so the million dollar question is, well, how can I, as a person who lacks status based

on my group membership, how can I then end up in that friendly strength, that assertive and warm, competent and likable at the same time? And there's a couple of different things. I unpack a lot of different ideas in the book to say, yes, it can be done, but you have to be intentional about it. You have to be strategic about it, and you have to look for ways that you can showcase competence and likability at the same time.

And sometimes what we know from behavioral science is that people make mistakes, right? We do things that we think are going to work, but the science has shown us they don't work. So one example of this is what researchers call, everything in psychology has a multi-syllabic name, compensatory impression management. Okay, you can forget that as soon as I said it, but compensatory impression management means if I want to be seen as really competent, I will naturally act less likable

because I think it makes me seem smarter. If I want to be seen as really likable, I will play down my competence because I think it makes me seem smarter. If I want to be seen as really likable, I will play down my competence because I think it makes me seem nicer. That is essentially people deliberately, non-consciously, downplaying themselves on one dimension because they're trying to get a boost on the other dimension. That is an example of a natural tendency that is not just done by women. In fact, research shows men might do it a smidge more than women. That's a natural tendency that's counterproductive because we are giving away our ability to be seen as both

because we're not trying. We don't recognize that in our conscious brain, but we're compensating by pulling back on one dimension, trying to excel on the other one. And so one is don't do that because there are lots of ways that you can show up as both. And the biggest category, the way I think about it is anytime you use your unique talents to solve someone else's problem, voila, you are competent and you are

likable because you used your skills that are unique for their benefit, not just yours. Thank you so much for sharing that and doing it in such an eloquent way. One of the areas that I really liked in the book, because I love studying mindset is you outline five limiting mindsets to becoming a likable badass. Can you quickly go over what the five are and perhaps maybe which one surprised you the most that people fall into? So there's, I'm an imposter. So this imposter syndrome idea of I don't respect myself than other people won't respect

me. You don't want to be status seeking this idea that I don't want to be seen as like manipulative or chasing a status or prestige or how people think of me. That's one I just do not possibly have time to think about anything else in my life. I'm just trying to get through in my life. I'm just trying to get through the day. I'm just one of the guys. I kind of have come to think about not really being that aware of my gender and it's not very central to my own identity. And therefore, if I don't care about it, nobody else cares about it. I think that's the one of the mindset. And then the

fifth one I talk about is this idea that I don't care about what other people think of me because we've been socialized to think about that. I would say that because I've seen all of these before, I personally have not encountered them as much as surprising. But the one I think that is that I talk about the most, as the biggest cautionary tale is this, I don't care what other people think of me because it is that's something that we have been told ever since we are kids. And I I will say I do say it to my kids Sometimes and as I say it I'm catching myself like this is really bad advice and we oftentimes Will praise people who seem to ignore their audience? We will tell our kids don't worry about what other people think etc

and the reason I think it's really bad advice and that we've been socialized in this way is because as psychologists behavioral scientists, right we know that so much of our lived experience is based on what other people think and what they think about us. So turning away from your audience is a really bad idea based on everything we know in psychology. Now, that doesn't mean you need to obsess over what your audience thinks, to ruminate about it,

to be upset about, to allow it to define you. But what I want people to think about is just like when you, if a salesperson who sold vacuum cleaners said, I don't care what the customer thinks, you would think that is a salesperson who is going to be fired or is going to starve, right? That is not the recipe for being a great salesperson. Well, it's the same thing with status. If you say, I don't care what my audience thinks, that is not a good recipe for being able to get people to value. So it wasn't surprising to me, but I think that if I could change one mindset in people that I love to help and serve, that's the one I want to get rid of is you don't have to obsess over it, but so much of your success is based on what other people think.

You can't make a sale unless the customer likes your product. You can't get promoted unless the people doing the promoting think you're worth it. These things matter. And so that's the one I really want to squash more than anything. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I thought was some of the time that we have remaining, I wanted to go through some of the practical application and strategies, but I wanted to do

this through a different lens. I wanted to talk about some people that I think are likeable badasses who I admire and maybe talk about some of these strategies and how they implemented them. So the first one I want to talk about is Sheryl Sandberg. And I want to go back to the day to go back to the day that she insisted on having a direct conversation with Mark Zuckerberg because this was all about negotiation. What did she do that was so powerful in that moment? I love to talk about this idea that building status doesn't have to be a time-consuming endeavor. This idea, I don't have time for us. So what Cheryl Sandberg reports when she went to talk to Mark Zuckerberg about joining Facebook at the time was talking about negotiating for her own compensation. And what she said was, you are hiring me to run a deal team, so you want me to be a good negotiator.

This is the only time you and I will ever be on opposite sides of the table. this is the only time you and I will ever be on opposite sides of the table. So one of the things, and I love this because it's two sentences, and it's really brilliant because in those two sentences what she communicates is, I am capable, I have a lot of skills, so I'm competent, I'm a good negotiator, I'm going to use that to run your deal team, and that's why you want me, so I'm competent. And that second one, I care about people other than myself. This is the only time you and I will ever be on opposite sides of the table. What she says is, I'm going to be very loyal to you. I'm going to fight for you.

I'm going to make you better off for having me here. And so in two sentences, you can communicate to somebody, even in a situation where you are advocating for your own interests, pay me more, that I am capable and I am caring. And so that to me is just a brilliant two sentences and it doesn't take much time to convey that message to your audience. I think that's great and I think what people don't fail to realize is how indispensable she was to Facebook and the fact that is how indispensable she was to Facebook. And the fact that many investors when she was leaving the company were actually considering pulling their money out

because they thought so much of the success was because of her even more than Mark. And you could argue it was, but I think she's a strong example. Another area I wanted to talk about is building a strong personal brand. And I'll let you pick which one of these three you want to talk about. But when I think of this, three names come to the top of my head. One is Michelle Obama. Another one is Oprah and a third one.

Not as well known as those two, but still very well known would be Mel Robbins. What did these three ladies do right when it comes to personal branding? Absolutely, so many things, right? Here's what I think, you think, oh my gosh, like how can I be in their company to be able to do this? These are things that, what makes them successful? One, I talk about this, all the good things that,

everything that people know about you comes from one of two sources. Things you have put out into the world about yourself and things that other people have put out into the world about you, things they say about you. So the better you are able to control those two channels, what am I putting out into the world

and what are other people putting out into the world about me then the better, the more you build your status. So thinking about the idea that these are women who are really good at being able to tell their story in a lot of different ways. Now it's helped because they have massive platforms that they've ultimately been able to create, but to tell their story and talk about the ways in which they show up as very capable, but they also show up as very caring to others, right? Putting resources out into the world, right? Content out into the world that people love to consume and that helps them live better and think better, right? Certainly Oprah and Mel Robbins are in that category. So control your narrative, but also having other people tell your story. So at this point, right, those three are all

so well known that their stories get amplified by other people so much that we're talking about them, right? So here we are, right, they're not here, the three of them are unless you've invited them, the three of them are not here, and here we are talking about these three women. That's other promotion, that's other people telling your story. And what I wanna encourage everybody to do to kind of, you don't have to be, you can be a household name without being a household name, right? So a couple of things.

One is you wanna reach the tipping point where everyone knows about you. So maybe there's some people who don't know who Mel is, but probably not anyone listening here. You'd be hard pressed to find somebody who didn't know who Michelle Obama was and didn't know who Oprah was. So one, people cannot start to talk about you if they don't know you exist, right? So we're not talking about somebody who lives four streets over

from me in Chicago because I don't know who they are. So one is making more people know you exist. Two, what causes people to amplify your story is they see you as a likeable badass. So all three of those women have been able to show up in ways where people respect their capabilities. And they see them as people who are doing good for people other than themselves in their own platforms in their own ways. Right? That's what people value about them. And so they need to see you that way. And then they need to be motivated to tell somebody else about it. And I think that's where we can start to, without being a celebrity, get some celebrity buzz around us.

And the one specific way I would advise people to do it, famous or not, is start talking other people up. So when you praise people and you build their status, you say, this is an amazing person and you should, I really value them and tell you all the things that are great about them. The grape vines are very efficient. And when they find out that people always wanna reciprocate the nice things that have been done to them

and the mean things too, but the nice things. And so when you put good things out into the world about other people, they wanna reciprocate and do that for you. So you don't have to have celebrity status or be known by everybody, but you can control that promoting them. They're much more likely wanna reciprocate and promote you.

And then meet more people, because the more people can do this for you. And so that's what they've now have on a global scale, is they're such a household name that they have opened up the entire world as potential other promoters for them. But each of us can do that on a smaller scale. If we start to think, this is my network now,

how can I double it? How can I triple it? How can I grow at tenfold? Thank you for sharing all that advice. And the last woman I want to talk about is timely, Susan Wojcicki. And Susan, to me, was such an amazing woman that I actually featured her in my book. And I featured her in a section about how we speak with our feet, because I thought about how we speak with our feet, because I thought that her words and her actions were a great representation of how they came together, especially in how she wanted to hire more women and give women more empowering positions.

But there's another element of her life that I think is important for us to discuss today. So she was a mom during this tenure when she was one of the most powerful CEOs in tech over YouTube and she had five kids. And I think she did a very great job of not allowing herself to be put in a box, but placed herself where she was treated as an equal. And I was hoping you might be able to talk about her and we can honor her legacy. 100%. I actually did not know that she had five kids until she passed away, and I just thought, oh, my goodness, that's amazing.

I always think the easy number of kids to parent is one less than however many you actually have, and the challenging number, like the unfathomable number is more than you have. So when I think I have three and three feels hard, I just had so much respect for her and her five kids. My brother has five kids and I don't even know how he does it. And now he's on top of the five kids. He's a foster parent on top of it. God bless them. Right. It's just so amazing. Here's what I think is really beautiful. And one of the

things that I totally respect about her and I think we should all carry that legacy forward, is status, power, these are resources, just like health is a resource. It is, these are things that help you live the life you want to live and build the world you want to see. And one of the things that I think she did so beautifully is she did not hoard her status. So there was a quote that I love and I put in my book from Amy Shulman, who was at the time, I think,

the general counsel at Pfizer, but she basically said, women hoard status like it's airline miles. And I chuckled because I thought, oh, I do like to hoard my airline miles. You never know when I'm going to need to spend those things on a good trip. And what she meant when she said women hoard favors like the horror airline miles, this idea that although it can be challenging to get the respect that you deserve, many people, many women are highly respected, right? For their contributions and the work that they do for others. And when you have reached that point, and it doesn't have to be at any given age or any given title, when people value you,

you have created a resource and that resource can be used to make other people's lives better and to fight for things that you believe in and you do not have to hoard that status like it's airline miles always thinking waiting for the next day. So one of the things I tell people is at any stage of your life and career is think about what matters to you. What legacy do you want to leave? What's your rocking chair? What's your retirement party? What are the things that people are going to say about you when you're gone? And you can't use your status for everything. You can't fight for everything, but everybody can fight for something. And so this idea of stand up for what you believe in, you want to build a better workforce for women, then go do it. You want to go solve another problem, go do it.

But using your status for good. So that's the thing I care about deeply, and I think she did so beautifully, is it's not just about building it, it's about what do you want to use it for? And that part we can't forget, and this idea of hoarding airline miles is I think a lot of women feel like

they have to fight so hard to be respected that once they are, they never want to do anything that's going to set them back. And I think that as Amy Schulman quoted, it keeps you on the, on the sideline your entire career. Right. And you don't want to be on the sideline. So I think that's a beautiful legacy that she created. Thank you so much for sharing that.

And it was just a shock to me. I didn't even realize how sick she was. I didn't hear it happened. And I lost a sister to cancer this I didn't even realize how sick she was. I didn't either. It happened and I lost a sister to cancer this summer. My heart goes out to her family. Well, Alison, I wanted to use the final moments that we had on the show to go over a couple different scenarios with you

so that we could try to help listeners today. Sure. So the first would be, let's take a scenario where you have someone who's kind of in the middle of their career, but they feel stuck. And let's just use the example. Perhaps they're a nurse or a nurse practitioner or a doctor in a very male dominated field

where there's a significant pay gap. If they feel stuck in their situation, what are some of the initial things that they can do to alter their course and become a likable badass? For sure. So one thing, again, thinking about the two different channels is the information I'm putting out into the world going to increase the likelihood that other people will see me as a likable badass. And if not, then I have to amp up my own storytelling. This is an area where a lot of people generally be out there telling me, so I don't want to be seen like I'm bragging.

I would say if you are the source of your own press, if you don't tell people it happens and they don't actually observe it or witness it firsthand, how would people ever know? So we have to reclaim our stories. That's one thing. I have people focus on auditing their story. What information are you putting out into the world? And is it as positive as it should be? Are you making any unintentional mistakes? One mistake that a lot of people make is they hold back their successes, their wins. I don't want to be seen as a braggart. I don't want to make people feel bad.

So I think if I hold back my success and I don't share it with you, I'm actually helping my warmth. I'm boosting my likeability. Maybe I'm doing it at the expense of my competence, but that's okay. But the research shows that's not exactly that all what happens, right? When you and I are in conversation together and you and I have a success that I don't share with you and you later find it out because the grapevine is efficient, do you think, oh my gosh, what a humble, nice person Allison was for not telling me that. That is, I just like her so much more now that she kept that to herself. No one thinks that. People either think, why didn't she tell me? Are we not, were we not good friends or it seemed relevant to the conversation? Or maybe does she feel like I'm so pathetic or so beneath her that she didn't want to share this? I'd be

envious. I'm incapable of being happy for somebody. All these paternalistic motives and it actually turns out to hurt the relationship. So sometimes we have these well-intentioned things that we're doing. So first thing I'd have the person do is you got to audit where you are to make sure that you don't have any storytelling mistakes and you're talking about the things that you're accomplishing because if you don't people aren't going to know them. Then the second one is control the other channel, which is one of the most powerful things we can have, are other people who act as agents on our behalf.

So if you feel stuck, with whom do you feel stuck, right? Who are the people who could get you unstuck? And maybe you're not the best messenger for them, or maybe you've already been doing a lot of good storytelling, but it's not working. Have other people tell your story. That's where finding people in the organization who do see you as a likable badass. They value you. They want you to succeed. Tell them to ask them to be your agent. Will I really need to kind of build my reputation with this other audience? They value you. They

respect you. When you speak, they listen. I know that you value the work that I do. I could really use your support letting them know about my good work. I haven't found a way to bring it into the conversation or when I do, I'm not sure it's really acknowledged. But if you said it, I think it would really go a long way. Would you be willing to do that? And that is asking somebody else to be your agent. It is no different than having a realtor or a lawyer represent you. It says, you have an ability to do something that I don't, will you act on my behalf? And there's the two ways to get people to do that

is either do it for them first and wait for them to reciprocate, and they often do, or to ask them. And although that feels a little scary, I will say people love clarity, right? What does Brene Brown say? Clear as clear as kind, right? When I'm very clear in what I want, you appreciate that because you'll either say yes or you're gonna say no. But if you see me as someone you really already respect, you're

you're looking for something easy to do that is going to have value to me. And when I tell you what it is, people are very excited to do this. So I've had great success with this. I've had great success coaching other people with this, which is find another person in the organization that already has status, but respects you and ask them to be your agent, changing the messenger can help get you different results. I think that's great. Find an agent who can help you change the messaging. The other scenario in this one is for the younger crowd

who are listeners of the podcast. I have a daughter who's a junior in college, so this will be her pretty soon. And this is all about starting fresh. For those who are maybe just entering the workforce or maybe they're trying to pivot their career, how do you build status from the outset? Okay, I'm glad you asked.

And I just feel like this is the place to be. I get it. You start out in your career and you feel like you don't have any power and no one knows you. So you feel like it's a low, powerless position to be in. But so you have a tremendous opportunity. The fact that nobody knows who you are,

you get to write your story from the very beginning. So write a strong story. The easiest time to build your status in other people's eyes is when you don't need anything from them. Because then you can show up, you're not so nervous about how you come across. You don't think they're gonna see

that this is just a tactic to get what you want. You can just add value. So what I say is, always look for opportunities, big or small, to showcase what you do really well and add value to other people's lives. And if you say, okay, I'm brand new in an organization, I just graduated, I don't really know anything. Yes, you do.

I guarantee you, you could make an introduction. I just got introduced to an amazing woman who does a lot of work in women's leadership development like I do. And you know who introduced us? My 15-year-old son, because he went to a leadership development program. He sat in a 200-person audience of high school kids. He listened to this woman talk,

and he said, this woman sounds like she does a lot like what my mom does. And he said, do you mind? Should I introduce you, mom? I said, go do it. Writes my name on a piece of paper and takes it up the next day to the front of the classroom after class and says, hey, my mom does what you do. I think you guys would like to know each other. Hands are the paper. She reaches out to me. We end up meeting when I come to pick them up. And we recognize we have all these points of connection. He doesn't know anything. I always joke like he can't drive yet. He can't cook. He doesn't put his clothes in the hamper. But he was sitting in an audience and said, these two people might actually have something in common. I'm going to bring them together. Do that. Right? If you are a social media whiz and

you really know how to use social media, teach the people that you work with who don't know how to do anything, don't know what they're doing to do that. If you're great at Excel, or I always say like my tech support team is my 12 year old son, you always have something of value you can offer that's going to solve somebody else's problem. So get the mentality from day one of looking in your environment and say, what do people care about? What are the problems they're trying to solve? And anytime you see one, you think I could solve that.

Even if it's, oh, I'm headed to Chicago. Anyone know any good restaurants? I do, because I live there. I can tell you that. Whatever it is, use your knowledge to solve other people's problems in big ways, but look for the small ways. That is going to be your thing to do

from the very beginning. But that starts with having the mindset of, I'm going to look for that. And I'm always going to try to use my knowledge to help solve their problem. Okay. That's great advice. And then the last question I have to ask, because half our listeners are men, are what role can men who have listened to this episode play in helping women and other represented groups improve their status and succeed. Okay, be people's, I call them other promoters. There's self-promotion, there's other promotion. Talk up the women in your life that you think are amazing.

I always say regardless, every time I have a positive thought about somebody, I don't just let that thought die in my head. I try to put it out there in the world. So if you're sitting at work and a woman does something, you're like, that was a smart response. That was a great line. That person just negotiated the heck out of that deal.

Whatever it is, anytime you have that, like that was pretty good. Tell somebody else about it. Tell them about their great work. Don't wait for them to ask you to promote them. Because again, I'm trying to get everyone to do it, but not everyone does it. So promote them.

Like, and what I mean by promote is not advance them in the hierarchy, although you should do that too. Say good things about their competence and their likability, their capabilities to the world. Okay. In any form, right? Give them a shout out on social media, send an email to your boss saying what great work the women on your team are doing, whatever it is, promote them. The other thing is to recce is don't, to this point, don't wait for an invitation. I am just going to tell you right now, if you were sitting there wondering, does the world want your allyship? Yes, it does. There's great research in the field, and some of it's done by one of my UNC colleagues that basically shows that in the case of gender, men will largely report that they absolutely care

about women's success and advancement. They want women to have status. They want women to have power. But if you ask the men, well, what are you doing about it? The answer is, well, nothing. And this underlying psychological explanation is it is very vulnerable position to advocate for a group that you are not part of because you wonder, is your advocacy welcome or will people think you are overstepping and you wonder, is your advocacy welcome or will people

think you are overstepping and they didn't ask for your help? And as a result of that fear, they find that many people who are in a privileged position to be allies do not act as allies. So what I just want to say to everybody, and this is not just a comment to Matt, is everybody has some privilege and some context that they could use to lift other people up.

Do people want you to use your privilege to help them? Yes, they do. So don't wait for an invitation. If an invitation comes, you should absolutely accept, but don't wait for it, right? Go out there and look for the opportunities to talk up and to elevate the women who are doing the amazing work. I promise you they want it.

Well, Allison, thank you so much. I thought that was a great topic to end on. If a listener wants to learn more about you, where are the best places that they can go and pick up a copy of your book? The book you can get anywhere you buy books, right? You can get it online, you can get it at local bookstores, anywhere you love to shop is a great place

and it should be there. For me, and staying connected, I love to meet people through all these different audiences that I'm privileged to get to talk to. I think the one-stop shop to find me is my website. So allisonforgail.com. Not a very common last name, pretty easy to find. And when you're there, you can learn more about the book, you can learn more about speaking that I do. But I have a couple of ways that I just put resources out into the world. I do not have my own podcast, but I have a newsletter called The Upper Hand.

It's free, it's behavioral science to help women excel. But just like we've talked about today, the things I care about are not behavioral science topics that are only relevant to women. So my newsletter is free, sign up, you can sign up for it through my website. And then I'm on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn, putting content out there, ideas.

I'm newer to Instagram, but I'm trying and on there as well. So I think my website is the really great place to start. From there, you. I'm newer to Instagram, but I'm trying and on there as well. So I think my website is the really great place to start. From there, you can message me or contact me, all of those things. But I would love to connect with anyone who's listening, who wants to learn more and to be connected. Well, Alison, loved our discussion.

Thank you so much for coming on the show and congratulations on this book. I know personally just how much effort it takes to get these things in the world. For sure. And thank you for having me. I enjoyed every minute of it. What an eye-opening conversation that was with Alison Frugal. I hope you found her insights on power, status, and influence as impactful as I did. Alison's approach to breaking down those often misunderstood concepts is not just enlightening, it's empowering, especially for

those looking to navigate complex environments and rise to the top. Her book, Likeable Badass, is a must read for anyone looking to make their mark with confidence and authenticity. And as always, you can find everything that we discussed today, including Alison's book in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Remember, if you're planning to grab a copy, using our links helps support the show and keeps it free for all our listeners. You can catch the episode's video on YouTube at our main channel at John R. Miles or segments from it on our clips channel at Passion Struck Clips. And discover all our advertisers, deals, and discount codes at passionstruck.com slash deals.

Supporting those who support us ensures that we keep bringing you these powerful conversations. and great way for you to learn where you can grow and to make a bigger impact in life. And now I'm excited to share a sneak peek of my upcoming episode with Corey Allen. Corey is a master of mindfulness and self-development. And in our conversation, we'll discuss how to cultivate self-awareness as well as presence in your everyday life. If you're looking to elevate your mental clarity, reduce stress, and truly live in the moment, this is an episode you won't want to miss. Corey's insights will leave you with practical tools to help you enhance your life and find peace in the chaos. The chronic diseases that have all shot up just when we started using antibiotics in mass might be a clue for us to go back and ask are those antibiotics changing the microbiome?

And maybe it's the change in the microbiome that is increasing the risk of some of these cancers. So that's what is sort of the reverse engineering by some of these really smart doctors now. And as always, the best way to support the show is simple. Share it. If you found today's episode with Alison Frugal useful or inspiring, pass it on to friends, colleagues,

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