Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Gabriel Reilich on Creating Stories That Inspire Real Change EP 503

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

In this episode of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles interviews Gabriel Reilich, the head of content and innovation at Good and Upworthy. They discuss the power of intentionality in combating the negative effects of social media and the importance of seeking out stories of human goodness. The conversation delves into the impact of positive stories on our brains, social connections, and overall well-being. Gabriel also shares a personal story from his upcoming book, "Good People, Stories from the Best of Humanity," highlighting the transformative power of kindness and connection.Full show notes and resources:  https://passionstruck.com/gabriel-reilich-on-stories-inspire-real-change/SponsorsBabbel: Unlock the power of learning a new language with Babbel's innovative system. Passion Struck listeners can get 60% off their subscription at Babbel.com/PASSION.Hims: Regrow your hair before it's too late! Start your free online visit today at Hims.com/PASSIONSTRUCK.Quince: Experience luxury for less with Quince's premium products at radically low prices. Enjoy free shipping and 365-day returns at Quince.com/PASSION.For more information about our sponsors and promo codes, visit: passionstruck.com/dealsIn this episode, you will learn:The importance of intentionality in living an intentional lifeThe three Bs to fight against the momentum: broaden, balance, and beautifyThe mission of Upworthy to showcase the positive side of human natureThe power of sharing stories of human goodness and kindnessThe concept of moral beauty and its impact on individualsThe triple ripple effect of kindness on the giver, receiver, and observerThe significance of balancing positivity with acknowledging real challengesThe role of everyday heroes in fostering connection and positivityThe impact of mean world syndrome on individuals' mental stateThe agency and empowerment found in everyday interactions and moments of kindnessConnect with Gabriel Reilich: https://www.gabrielreilich.com/Order Passion StruckUnlock the principles that will transform your life! Order my book, Passion Struck: Twelve Powerful Principles to Unlock Your Purpose and Ignite Your Most Intentional Life. Recognized as a 2024 must-read by the Next Big Idea Club, this book has earned accolades such as the Business Minds Best Book Award, the Eric Hoffer Award, and the Non-Fiction Book Awards Gold Medal. Order your copy today and ignite your journey toward intentional living!Catch More Passion StruckMy solo episode on 7 Reasons Why Acts of Kindness Are More than Meets the EyeCan’t miss my episode withJames Rhee On How You Lead Change through KindnessWatch my episode with Dacher Keltner on the Hidden Power of Moral BeautyCatch my interview with Katy Milkman on Creating Lasting Behavior Change for GoodListen to my solo episode on The Importance of Empathy to Your LifeIf you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review! Even one sentence helps. Be sure to include your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can personally thank you!

Coming up next on Passion Strike. I think intentionality is at the core of so many things. And I think it's difficult to be particularly intentional on a platform in the digital world where the incentives are to keep you moving and to keep you bouncing around from one thing to the next. This extends on the digital world and also in real life, but you have to pay attention to the forces at work and fight against them a bit. I talk a bit about ways to do that, sometimes refer to them as the three B's, which is to

broaden, to balance, and to beautify. And these are all kind of opportunities to fight against the momentum, the gravitational pull that's moving you from one thing to the next, and to check to make sure that you're not just consuming the same thing over and over again and that it's affecting your worldview. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, Jon R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips,

and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.

We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries and athletes. Now let's go out there and become Passion Struck. Hey, Passion Struck family. Welcome back to episode 503. I want to kick things off with a huge thank you to all of you who come back every week

ready to dive in, learn and transform your life. You're the reason we keep pushing forward and I'm so grateful for your energy and commitment. If you're new here, welcome to the movement. And for those thinking about sharing the show with friends or family, which we absolutely love, we've made it super easy. With 500 episodes and counting, it can feel overwhelming to know where to start. That's why we've put together episode starter packs, curated playlists to help you hit the ground running. Whether you're into behavioral science, physical and mental health, astronauts, military leaders or powerhouse women, we've got you covered. Just head over to Spotify or visit passionstruck.com slash starter packs to find the perfect playlist

for you. In case you missed it earlier this week, I had an eye-opening conversation with Stanford psychologist Dr. Jim Iuzzaki. We dug deep into the dangers of cynicism, how it erodes trust, and how hopeful skepticism can help us rebuild that trust in ourselves and others. If you want to rediscover the good in humanity, don't miss that one. It's a powerhouse conversation that'll leave you thinking differently about the world. And as always, I truly appreciate all your ratings, reviews, and feedback.

If today's episode resonates with you, please drop us a five-star review and sharing it with your friends and family. Your comments mean the world to me and to our incredible guests. Now on to today's episode and you're in for a real treat. I'm thrilled to welcome Gabriel Rylick to the Passion Struck podcast. Gabriel is the head of content and innovation at Good and Upworthy and co-author of Good People, Stories from the Best of Humanity. He's on a mission to showcase the positive side of human nature. And today we're diving into why those stories are more than just feel-good moments. They're catalysts for real behavioral change. We'll explore how Gabriel and his team built Upworthy into a thriving community with millions

of followers, and what makes their comment section one of the kindest corners on the internet. He'll share the fascinating process of turning those uplifting stories into a book, highlighting 101 of the most heartwarming submissions from their community. We're also going to tackle something big, the Mean World Syndrome, which I just deep dived in last week's solo episode, where constant exposure to negative media makes us feel like the world is more dangerous than it actually is. Gabriel will break down how Upworthy's content helps restore faith in humanity, showing us that we have way more in common than it actually is. Gabriel will break down how uproar these content helps restore faith and humanity, showing us that we have way more in common than what we think. We'll even touch

on the science, how positive stories impact our brains, foster social connection, and improve health outcomes, and wait until you hear Gabriel's personal story from the book about how a teacher helped his classmate embrace his uniqueness when he started kindergarten with an eye patch. It's inspiring stuff. Finally, we'll dive into practical ways to curate your social media feed to boost your well-being and how companies can learn from up-worthy methods of community building and storytelling. So get ready for a conversation that's not just about sharing good stories but understanding why those stories matter and how they can inspire real change in your life and

the world around you. Let's dive in. Thank you for choosing Passionstruck and choosing me for your host and guide world around you. Let's dive in. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me for your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so honored to have Gabriel Rylik on Passion Struck. Welcome Gabriel. Hey John, thank you so much.

It's a pleasure to be here. Well, I love to give guests questions that help the audience get to know them better and I thought for you I would ask this one We all have moments in life that define who we become What is a moment that first comes to mind to you that helped define who you are today? It's a great question and I talk about this a little bit in a story that I tell in the book that I have coming out. But I think we all have these formative moments that affect our worldview. And I'm big into perspective and understanding how our perspective on the world influences things. And for me,

I had an experience when I was quite young that changed how I view people in general and my place in the world. And that was through an experience that I had with my kindergarten teacher on the first day of kindergarten. So going pretty far back when we talk about formative, but I'm happy to talk about that story a bit. I was headed to kindergarten first day of school. I think we had known that there was a task to perform, which was memorize your home address and phone numbers.

So I was very focused on that. And I knew I could do this. I can get these numbers down in my head. And then I arrived there and all of a sudden I see all the kids doing their thing and chattering and meeting each other and I'll take a look at them. And I realized they're a little different than me because they all had two eyes and I had one because I was wearing an eye patch. I had amblyopia, which is colloquially known as lazy eye.

So I had to wear like a big flesh colored eye patch to strengthen the weak eye. You basically force the strong eye to take over so the weak eye can strengthen. I'm sure there's a lot of great metaphors in there somewhere. And in that moment, I was like, oh boy, I'm different than these kids. Is this going to be bad? Am I going to get teased? And what's going to happen here? And I started getting pretty nervous pretty quick.

And I had a kindergarten teacher. Her name was Miss Bean, which is a great name and she was a great person. And I still in my memory, she's just 20 feet tall. I see her as a five-year-old. And I don't know if my parents had said something or prepared her somehow, but she seemed to sense what was going on. And she put me in front of the class.

She said, come here, stand up in front of everyone, which was the opposite of what I wanted to do. And she had the class sit down and she said, this is Gabriel, his eye is on vacation. Are there any questions? And the whole class said no. They just accepted it and they accepted me. And that was it, there were no further problems.

And this made me just think about how important it is to understand where you can help people, how you can plug into a situation to put people at ease, especially when you're in a position of authority to do that. And it made me realize that the world is not necessarily a dangerous place or just because something is unknown, that it's going to be dangerous automatically. And Ms. Bean, she influenced my worldview on that. And it's something I've carried with me for quite a long time. And I think about her often.

Well, Gabe, that's a great story. And I know a hundred percent exactly what you went through because I have ampliopia myself. So mine was induced from a traumatic brain injury that I got when I was five years old. That was a repercussion as a result of it. But unfortunately, I didn't have the same grace of teachers that you did. Because for me, anytime I went to school, it was my worst nightmare

because I did look and feel different from everyone else. But luckily, as time went on, the patch came off and life got back to normal, so to say. I'm so glad they did that for you. Well, we have a very deep connection here. Both have experienced the eye patch, which I don't know how many folks can say. Maybe I'm your first guest with the eye patch. You are, you are.

And I at first wore mine on my glasses, but I guess I was cheating so much trying to look around it that they eventually took that off and put the bigger patch on my eye underneath the glasses. So kids will always find the way to work around whatever's going on. Find the most clever ways about it. As I was doing research on you, I found something pretty unique that many people can't say. You were a grand prize winner on a quiz show on ABC. I was hoping you might talk about that experience. Sure.

Then this will be the first time I think I've talked about it publicly, but it's, it is a fun story. I can say that I am one of the top quiz show winners of all time in terms of the grand prize. And so what happened, I had had one of my first real jobs out of college. I started my career at a talent agency and I had wanted to work. I went to UC Berkeley and I wanted to study or I studied politics and international relations. I wrote my thesis on terrorism and Al Qaeda strategy and engaging the West because 9-11 had happened shortly after I started university. I just wanted to know, well, how could this happen? That's what I studied. And working for the government didn't quite work out. So I started

working in Hollywood. My sister at the time was dating a show runner for a show called House. And he was like, I think you'd make a great agent. And at the time, I didn't know enough about the agency world to be like, okay, what are you saying about me here? But I was like, I think you'd make a great agent. And at the time I didn't know enough about the agency world to be like, okay, what are you saying about me here? But I was like, that sounds fun. So I did that for a bit. And then I got a job in the feature film business and I was in my mid twenties and then I lost that job.

And I didn't know what I was going to do at first. But for some reason, this little thing in my head was saying, you know what? I think the most sensible thing to do is just to win a game show. And so I did what any normal person would do. I went on Craigslist at the time to see if there was casting for that going on. I found a post saying, Hey, we're casting for a quiz show. And I saw that was an option.

I applied. I went to the casting. I hammed it up in front of the camera because I had enough experience in the TV world to know that you got to be a personality if you want them to pick you for TV. And I ended up getting cast for it. And in the span of two days of filming, played five contestants, uh, for the grand prize, it was one of those head-to-head quiz shows where if you can keep beating contestants

and then you can choose to cash out or continue the competition. And I just kept going and going. And then in the span of 48 hours, my fortunes had completely changed. I went from being completely broke and not having a job and to having a big check coming to me on the horizon. And one fun anecdote I'll share to you as a shout out to my mom.

It was a very slumdog millionaire moment. As I mentioned with my studies that I studied international relations, politics. I spent some time abroad. I wanted to study in London and I was deciding between King's college and the London school of economics at the time. And I was talking to my mom and she kept saying to me, she goes, yeah, that Mick Jagger, he thinks he's such a rebel, but he went to the London School of Economics.

And I'd be like, oh, that's interesting. And then every time I'd bring up the decision, she'd be like, oh, that Mick Jagger thinks he's such a rebel, but he went to the London School of Economics. So much to the point where I was like, mom, I get it. Mick Jagger went to the London School of Economics. And lo and behold, the very, the final question on this game show was which member of the Rolling Stones attended the London School of Economics. You can look it up on YouTube and see it. And I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that this was the last question. And it happened to be

the one that I won on. So it was definitely one of those mystical moments from just feeling like it was the right thing to do to try out for the game show to, to getting on there to having that be the last question on there to, you know, provide me some opportunity that coming from a working class background with my parents that I probably wouldn't have had otherwise. So I love that. And I do have a couple of following questions for it. So one just anecdotally, I was supposed to go to the Aerosmith farewell tour

and unfortunately it got cancelled, but I guess Mick Jagger can now say that they have outlasted everyone who was a rival. It's unfortunate that both of those bands have had such a long ride. It's incredible that they're still both performing, passing to the capabilities that they're still both performing, passing to the capabilities that they were. But I did have to ask you on these game shows, I've always wondered in the background, whether it's Jeopardy or something like this, are you all given anything to study from? Meaning there are so many different areas that you could be asked questions on. I always wondered if they narrowed it down for you.

And so you could at least prepare for it. No, there's nothing. It's just what information do you know? And I've always had the kind of brain that held on to useless information and random trivia called trivia, right? For a reason. And I guess at that moment, it just wasn't useless for once besides playing in a bar of trivia or impressing a friend before you could Google

everything super easily. So there's no prep. It could be anything. I didn't prepare for it at all. I just figured I would have, I would either have an opportunity to make it and get some questions that I knew. But it was also interestingly enough with this game, it was also about observing what was going on in the taping and seeing what was happening. The way the

game was set up, I won't go into the details, but if you played conservatively, it was impossible to lose before the fourth question. You could not lose, right? And yet, when I was sitting there in the green room, there was a very high churn going on. They're like, okay, next person. I'm like, okay, people are losing pretty fast here. So I decided to play incredibly conservatively until I absolutely had to rely on my knowledge. And that helped me quite a bit. So unless I was a hundred percent sure of something, I didn't take

a risk that was unnecessary. And again, I guess maybe an interesting metaphor in there about knowing when to take risks, paying attention to your surroundings, not just being singularly focused on the task at hand, but the ecosystem in which things are existing in. So that helped me quite a bit. Dave, today we're going to be discussing your new book. And for those who are watching this video,

it's over your left hand shoulder. It's called Good People, Stories from the Best of Humanity. And you co-wrote this with Lucia Nell. I was interested when I first saw the book of having you on the show or both of you on the show. And a backdrop to this is one of my favorite interviews I've ever done on this podcast was with a UC Berkeley professor named Dacher Keltner. And Dacher has been studying awe and compassion and things like that for three

decades. And I remember in his book, he talks about this thing called moral beauty. And that the thing that evokes on people more than anything else is when we ourselves do acts of kindness or we see moments of human good in others. And the company you work for, Upworthy, is known for sharing moments of human good across social media. Can you talk a little bit more about that profound mission and what it's doing to people all over the world? Absolutely. First, I'm a big fan of Keltner's work, the obligatory Go Bears being from UC Berkeley and the concept of moral beauty is definitely one stuck with me. And when it comes to Upworthy, we have a simple mission and that mission is to

share the best of humanity with the world in any way that we can. And we do that every day. And of course we're most known for doing that on social media and through our editorial. But really it's not just about doing it in a digital space, but carrying that ethos with us wherever we can. And I can give a bit of a Genesis about how the social media presence, we have over 5 million followers on Instagram alone right now reach 50 to a hundred

million people per month through that platform alone. The engagement is wild and we like to refer to it as the largest collection of decent hearted people on the internet and the kindest comment section on the internet too. So if you ever lose faith, but that the comments are all bad, come to Upworthy and read them and you might change your mind. There have been different versions of Upworthy throughout time. What we're most well known for, as I was saying right now on the Instagram page came about several years ago.

And it started cause Lucia and I, I had been running editorial at the time. And then I saw, we didn't really have much of a presence on Instagram at all. And just personally, I was thinking, and so was Lucia, that it would be wonderful to have a place, a simple place where we could just catalog. Acts of human decency, bookmark them for ourselves, just as proof points that the goodness was happening in the world. acts of human decency, bookmark them for ourselves, just as proof points that goodness was happening in the world. Really no greater ambition than to do that and primarily at first because it was something that we wanted, that we felt that we could use as a reminder. It happened that shortly after that

decision the pandemic started and I think that there was a real need to see examples of human goodness during what was a pretty difficult time when people are fighting over toilet paper at the Costco to be reminded that's not what, you know, that's not everything that's happening. And so it grew rapidly from no followers to over a million really quickly. And then this continued from there. And it spoke to there being a real desire out there for people to see these examples, as Keltner says, of moral beauty. And sometimes it's a very simple thing that you see on there.

It's a shared laugh. It's a goofy moment that transcends through the two people experiencing it to the person viewing it as well. Sometimes it's articulating a vision or a point or a belief or an experience in a way that people haven't seen before that changes their perspective and allows them to connect to themselves and to others in a different way. And it's just unbridled creativity and love and laughter and other emotions, sadness and grief, but articulated in a way where people feel connected to others.

And I think that's really the crux of the issue is the desire, the need for connection that people have right now and to find it wherever they can. One of those sources being on Ad Upworthy is important. The surge in general, the United States, Vivek Murthy talks about an epidemic of loneliness happening. It's a real thing. People are searching for connection, particularly at a time when different institutions are losing some of their hold or power on people and folks need to find this sense of connection to others in different places. And of course, we have an amazing tool in social media that's

been created to allow ideas to spread and people to connect from all over the world. But as we know, the tool of social media isn't necessarily a cure. Sometimes it, and oftentimes, it can exacerbate the problems that people are experiencing. And so our goal at Upworthy is to provide a refuge, a place where people can find that, to see the examples and have more and more opportunities to connect to the moral beauty, if you will, that exists in the world. Yeah, well, off of that,

I have a couple of things I wanted to ask you about. The first is, when I think of social media, I think a lot of times what I see when I'm observing it is people being exposed to more and more that success is based on the extrinsic things that we value in life. Where I think if you're really looking at what fulfills us, it's more of the spiritual side of things or the intrinsic drivers. Do you see that as well?

When you look at the majority of what's happening on social media, social media, it's a tool, right? And it depends on how it is used in terms of what you get out of it. But it's also a tool in which the forces behind it are not necessarily, you're not just like taking a tool and using it. The tool has its own energy, the algorithms, the incentives for monetization and profit behind it that also influence how it's being used with you. And certainly there is a lot of stuff that is fed to people that is surface level, that is anger inducing, that is not aspirational

in the sense of becoming a better person or creating a better life. And then there is a lot of stuff out there, a lot of content creators and people who share things in a very aspirational and beautiful way that can give you some of those feelings. And if you search for them, you'll find them. And if you follow enough of them, it might change your experience with the platform in general. The difficulty is that even if you curate really effectively, there's still a gravitational pull on the platform to keep moving, to not spend time with a feeling or thought, to move on to the next

thing. The feeling is very ephemeral. There are forces to, you know, check up on an ex or to view an account or media that might not be, was not good for you, but you find it interesting and compelling or you maybe you want to watch that video of a public fight or a freak out going on. And so it's really hard to fight against those forces on social. And I think that there is no substitute for real life interaction. So even when you're getting the most beautiful stuff served to you, it's still not the same as having that experience yourself. But what it is,

it does give you an opportunity to have a feeling that you can take and carry with you. And maybe opportunity to have a feeling that you can take and carry with you And maybe when you have that feeling be conscious of it and log off while you still have it and take it with you out into the real world So when I think of things like moral beauty Or displaying human good things like that Typically when people are acting in the goodness of others, they're intentional about their actions. And I wanted to ask you,

since that's what this podcast is all about, what role do you think intentionality plays and how good people extend kindness to others? good people extend kindness to others. I think intentionality is at the core of so many things. And I think that's part of what's so difficult right now is that it's difficult to be particularly intentional on a platform or in the digital world where the incentives are to keep you moving and to keep you bouncing around from one thing to the next.

So I think this extends on the digital world and also in real life, but you have to pay attention to the forces at work and fight against them a bit. I think that I talk a bit about ways to do that and sometimes refer to them as the three B's, which is to broaden, to balance and to beautify. And these are all kinds of opportunities to fight against the momentum, the gravitational pull that's moving you from one thing to the next and to check, to make sure that you're not just consuming the same thing over and over again, and that it's affecting your worldview.

Balance is key. Make sure that you're spending time off of social media, off of not looking at screens. Look at those metrics the iPhone gives it to you. It tells you how much screen time you're having if you set that up and think about trying to balance that as effectively as possible. I think this is particularly key because

we form our opinions a lot based on the narratives that we're seeing online. And the implications of that are profound because we can start believing that what we're seeing through a screen is the real world. And I think oftentimes people get really angry about ABC XYZ issue and it's all they can think about and because it makes them want to engage or getting fed more of it and then it dominates their view of the world. But there is a difference between what you're seeing on a screen and what's

happening out in the real world. Um, so in terms of balancing, it's important, I think, to take stock and be like, okay, well, what's making me angry? What's bothering me about people? Why do I feel if I'm really down on humanity, where is that coming from? Is it coming from stuff that I'm seeing online through a digital space? Or is it coming through my real life interactions with people on a day-to-day basis?

And I think if you find that, okay, most of this is coming from a digital space and not from what I'm seeing in the real world. It's an important realization because if you go out in the real world, and this isn't to say that everything is roses outside or that the information being conveyed that's difficult to digest and hold is irrelevant and that you should bury your head in the sand. But it's important to remember that there are two sides to the coin. There are difficulties, there are problems, very real problems in the sand, but it's important to remember that there are two sides to the coin. There are difficulties, there are problems, very real problems in the world, but there's also a lot of beauty and connection and decency.

And particularly if you look for it, you can look for it in a digital space, if you're intentional, and you can also look for it in the real world. If you're being intentional, go outside, see what people are doing, see the moments of folks, little things, holding hands, helping someone cross the street, opening a door, other things that may surprise you. And I think that level of intentionality can really help people change their perspective and changing your perspective is extremely important if you find yourself in a hole of believing that things are not so good.

Gabe, the week that your book launches, there's another book, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, that's launching the same week. And you're both looking at human goodness from completely different angles. And we're gonna go more into your book, but I just wanted to ask you about this other one,

because the name of it is Hope for Cynics. And the lens here is how human goodness is the hope for cynicism. What are your thoughts on that? I haven't heard about this book yet, but I love the title. I think I can't say I necessarily disagree with the premise. I think sometimes when people find out you have a lot of good friends out there, they don't necessarily know that I built at Upworthy on Instagram with Lucia. And sometimes when they find out,

they're a little surprised because I can, I'm like any person, I can be a curmudgeon at time. I can feel down on things. And sometimes my friends who know me, they expect that Upworthy, who is this, you know, friend to millions on the internet is like, wait, you built that presence? That doesn't necessarily seem like you all the time. And so I think that we all have that some cynicism in us.

And I think that goodness can be the cure to that. But I also think just learning, experiencing things, putting yourself out into the world is important. I think experience of goodness, I might qualify it, qualify as another way to look at it is really important. We talk a bit about this triple ripple effect that goodness can have on people, that positive behaviors can have on people. And this is something that's been studied that shows that when you see kindness in the world, or you do it yourself and you help someone, that it's not just about helping them. It has a ripple effect.

It affects the giver, which is you. It affects the receiver, the person that you're helping. And it affects the observer, anyone who's seeing it, or even potentially society at large. And so when I think about cynicism, I think about obviously it's a lack of hope and it's giving into a narrative that things are bad if you let that define your worldview. And kindness is the opportunity to take yourself out of that worldview and then not only affect yours and the person you're helping, but those around you, because it can ripple. And just to give that some media theory underpinning, there is a media professor,

George Gerbner, who coined the term mean world syndrome in the 1970s. He's a communication scholar. And his theory was that if you were constantly fed a negative reinforcing narrative about people and about the world that people are untrustworthy that it's dangerous that this is going to heighten a sense of anxiety in you and other difficult emotions to deal with and then you're going to start actually seeing the world in that way and if you see the world in that way you're going to carry

that feeling with you and interact with people in that way and then if you see the world in that way, you're going to carry that feeling with you and interact with people in that way. And then if you interact with people in that way, particularly if everyone is doing this, if you have that narrative reaching people at scale, then it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The negative view of the world becomes a reality because people are going out there and treating it as the truth and their behaviors are affected. Our hope is that the opposite is also true, that seeing examples of kindness, of human decency can instill a feeling that's hard to categorize, although perhaps awe is a good word, that you can carry with you into the world that affect your interactions with people

and in turn can help create a better world in the process. Well, thank you for tackling that. I knew that is a question you're not going to get from any other interviewer. But in case you're interested in learning more about it, Jamil Zaki is the person who wrote it. And he's actually a professor at Stanford. So I'm in your backyard. I just thought it was so interesting that both books are coming out on the same day. Who would have thought two books on human goodness? Looking at it in such different ways.

Odds are just really high, really low. Yeah, that's true. And I hope they're high. Maybe they're getting higher because the more information about it, the better. And there's been such compelling academic work on it done, which is in like, tools and ideas and lists and things that you can do to bring this into your own life, which I'm a big fan of our approach is a little different where we're not like here's a prescriptive way to understand how hope and kindness can help you. of reading stories, of exposing yourself to decency in the world is going to help you achieve the aim of feeling better, of doing better, and to helping to create a better environment around you.

Because when we talk about cynicism, when I was gathering these stories and every single one of them started out in the comment section on Upworthy, as just like a brief response to a question that we posed. And we poured, we'd get tens of thousands of responses to questions that we would ask to people. And we would pour through these looking for the seeds of stories that could be something more.

And it's a long process creating a book and going through this. And I figured I would get bored of spending as much time with these stories as I did. And the truth is, they didn't lose their power. And what was so surprising is that the more that I revisited them, the stronger the effect that they had. Whether it was something, a story about something small or big, obviously there are certain ones that resonate with me more than others, just as an individual. But I think it's important to just remind yourself that it's not like decency and moral beauty, kindness, goodness, however you want to talk about it,

isn't necessarily just an academic pursuit. It's an experience, it's a way of looking at the world. And it's a question of what you're inviting into your life because that can have profound effects on how you view the world and how you feel about yourself. Thank you for sharing that. And I wanna do a deeper dive now on the book. So for those who are interested in reading this,

the way that the book is organized is around specific questions such as, what is the kindest thing a stranger has ever done for you? Is there a teacher who changed your life for the better? What's a little thing someone did for you that stayed with you forever? My question for you, Gabe, is, with those questions as a backdrop,

given what you were just describing on how many comments that you got that led to story ideas, can you walk us through the process of gathering these stories and how you decided which stories were compelling enough to include? Sure. Going back to the genesis of the account, once it grew to a certain place, we noticed a couple of things happening. One was the way that we communicated with people was not as like a brand or as a

corporate entity and not even as a goofball social media coordinator trying to like be an oddball to get engagement. We just wanted to be a friend to people on the internet. We just wanted to have a presence that made people feel better. And like they had somebody that they could rely on to your optimistic friend who's not annoying was our goal. And I think we succeeded on that front. Because what it did is it started creating a place where people, I think, felt safe enough to start sharing experiences of their own without the fear

of being ridiculed or whatever may follow on some other places where maybe the community that's built there is not quite as accepting and kind. And so we would see this happening, right? Where we'd post something, a story about maybe somebody helping somebody else in an interesting way, a teacher who changed someone's life, a video, you see these videos going around of somebody going back to the teacher who helped them and letting them know a reunion type of thing. And these would trigger memories and people they'd start talking about it. Oh man, this reminds me

of my teacher or oh this thing that someone did for this person, that reminds me of when I was at my lowest, somebody really did something that I'll never forget. And this was my favorite part of running this account, seeing those stories, because it made me realize, wow, we are reaching real people with real lived experiences. And they are hungry to share those experiences with the world because it's a way to connect. And we're all searching for that. And so it felt really good to know that we had fostered an environment for that. And then personally, it felt good because I felt connected to these people in return. And so Luci and I wanted to dive into that more, these stories, because they were

real from a person out there, they held a certain power to them and we didn't want it to get swept away, which is the nature of the internet. You move in social, you move from one thing to the next. It's funny, the stuff that maybe you don't want to live forever online is always there. But that one comment that you read or that one post that you saw, unless you bookmark it and I don't know how many people actually do that, it's tough to come by again, you're like, Oh, what was that one thing that was so funny or so smart or so profound? And it can be lost because of the avalanche of content.

And so first we started thinking, like, how can we invite more of these responses? So we started being very intentional about it. The nature of the internet and social is ephemeral. It's moving you from one thing to the next and trying to find that thing that may have stuck with you can be difficult. What was that comment? What was that thing that somebody said, that post, that idea? And it may be lost. And so we wanted to approach this with the intentionality of getting to know our audience, but also to capture those feelings and to preserve them. And so we just started being direct with questions that we thought would trigger

specific memories and people like you said, who's that teacher that changed your life for the better? Tell us about something small someone did that you'll never forget. Tell us about something small someone did for you that you'll never forget. Tell us about a time someone helped you when you were at your lowest. Tell us about a time you experienced kindness from a stranger. All specific memory recall questions. And people just, they dove into it. Tens of thousands of responses to some of these questions. And the algorithm pushes certain ones to the top.

But Lucia and I spent countless hours reading through every single one. And looking for ones that were written where we're like, we want to learn more. We want to know more about this story. And so we reached out to people and we asked them, Hey, would you be willing to share more of your story with us? And the vast majority of people said, yes, they wanted to share their experience. And for that I'll be forever grateful because a lot of these are very intimate personal stories that maybe not everybody would want to tell. But I think it speaks to the fact that people appreciated what we were doing, felt comfortable

with us, looked at us as a friend. And then we got to know these folks and work with them to tell their story in a longer format than an Instagram comment or a post. And so it's all stuff that's never been read before on an account. We compiled it together, went through that process more than a hundred times to get over a hundred stories in here. That kind of run the gamut of different ways that folks are showing up for each other throughout time, strangers, friends, family, whatever it may be to speak

to the depth and breadth of the beauty of the human experience. I love how the book is a collaboration with your audience and the community's input shaped the final collection of stories. So I think that is really important in how this whole book was shaped. I do have to ask, and you were going into this a little bit, but how did you and Lucia balance the need for positivity with the responsibility of acknowledging the real challenges that people in the community who wrote to you faced? Oh, you cannot have one without the other. If you talk about positivity and ignore the real

challenges that people are facing, it's so easy to dismiss. And it starts straying into that territory of toxic positivity. Oh, I don't need that negative energy in my life. I just want to look at the good stuff. But the true beauty, the true goodness is in truth, right? Truth is the most beautiful thing. And so speaking to the challenges that people are having, how they overcame challenges, who was there for them. And there are some stories where that deal with some very dark, difficult themes. And those are the most powerful because they're real. And so I think the tricky part was making sure that we were handling people's experiences

in a way that treated them with dignity and did those stories honor. And I think just by the amount of people who were thrilled with how their experiences were communicated, how we worked with them to bring them to more people, show that we succeeded on that front. And I'm really happy because it's not all the time that you get these like little slices of things that these little slices of life that speak to the profundity of just being alive and the absolute spectrum of experiences that people can have. Well, I think something that I get to do through this podcast

is getting to know the people behind the social accounts that we often see. And one of my favorite things to do on the show is I love to interview people like you and leading experts. But my favorite people to have on the show are what I call everyday heroes. Everyday people who are doing incredible things in the world. And some of those I find are the deepest stories that I'm exposed to. And they end up fostering some of the most connection

with listeners on the show. So I'm sure it's something that you've experienced too in creating this and in the way that you're trying to engage with the community on social media as well. They're all around us. These people doing these beautiful things, big and small, they surround us and they don't always get the attention that they deserve because there are some very dramatic forces at work and some very important things that are demanding our attention.

But it doesn't decrease the importance of, as you say, everyday heroes and it's important to give them the spotlight they deserve because there's power in their stories. There's important to give them the spotlight they deserve because there's power in their stories. There's power to make you feel that there are good people out there. And that's not necessarily the narrative that is being shared throughout traditional and social media all the time, because dramatic forces lead to more engagement a lot of the time. And it's important to stay informed. But the balance is critical. It's not just all about consuming information and being aware of what's happening in every corner

of the earth. It's also being aware of what's happening close to you, what's happening with people, what's happening with folks in a way that's not going to make the news headlines, but is going to change how people feel about each other in a positive way. And so I love finding those stories, sharing those stories. I think it's extremely important. And that's what the page is filled with and what our editorial is filled with, are those kinds of examples. And I think people are hungry for it.

If these stories are told in the right way, something small can be as compelling as the biggest global news story sometimes. Because at the core is what it means to be a person. And if you can tell that story effectively and you can convey it in a way that connects in a deep and honest fashion, it's a public service. I'm not saying that we achieve that on every single thing that we post, but we do it sometimes. And when we do, it's a really beautiful thing because you can see that it affects people in a way that matters and that

they can hold on to. So one of the things that's out there, that's the opposite of this goodness is mean world syndrome, which I'd never heard of before I came across your work. Why is it important for those striving to live intentionally to be aware of its effects? Well, it's because what you're seeing, Mean World Syndrome is interesting. It says the narratives that you see affect how you feel. And I think this is something, the narratives that you see affect how you feel, the information that you consume affects how you feel.

I think this is something that we inherently know to be true. I'm not sure how much this has been tested in a clinical environment, but I know that there have been studies that show how certain types of information can heighten a sense of fight or flight, raise anxiety, and that's what this is about. So if you are only being being or primarily consuming information that is heightening that sense of fight or flight, that anxiety, that is survival mechanisms, it is going to be very difficult to engage in the world in a way where you are not

feeling fearful, distrustful and carrying chaos pretty much through your experiences. And that's why being intentional matters so much because there's a utility to being aware and to anxiety and fear. It's a survival instinct and there are good parts to that, but it also doesn't let you experience the world to its fullest and it certainly doesn't elevate your experience to what it can be. So one thing that I think about a lot when we think about the inverse or the converse of that is just seeing those little moments making you feel those little moments of human decency, of kindness, of goodness in the world, carrying that feeling with you, it changing how you interact with other people. And then at scale, maybe changing the world that's around us.

Now, one thing that I think is so interesting about it is that I feel like we've seeded a lot of ground in our lives to entities that are, that's beyond our control to forces that we don't have much agency. And we step foot into a digital space. There are algorithms at work. There are quarterly profits to be had. There are nation states that are trying to sow discord and share misinformation. It's just a reality of the landscape. Of course, there are other great things happening too, but there's a lot of difficult high stakes things happening.

And a lot of times we're fed information that may leave us feeling powerless. And if you feel powerless, you're not going to feel good. You read about something happening, you read about something happening across the world that's horrible and that you don't have control over, it can really start affecting your mental state. And so it makes you think about, well, where is agency? What do you have control over? And I think it's a question of proximity. The closer you are to something, the more of a chance that you have

to actually have an effect on it. And so our interactions out in the real world, every single person that we come across, every interaction that we have conversation, moment to do something for someone else. This is a time where algorithms aren't in control. A talking head isn't telling you what to do. A politician isn't saying, oh, you have to do X, Y, or Z when you interact with this person. It's just you and the person and the moment at hand. And realizing that there is that sense of agency is big because it's empowering. And so it's something that I try to keep in mind when I'm moving about the world. And the implications are big too, because as evidence in these stories that we've

gathered and you know, I'm sure as evidenced by John, your experiences and people listening, their experiences is something small that someone does for you in a particular moment, maybe something you carry with you your whole life may provide a moment that you go back to and revisit when you need to believe that there's goodness out there or you need a smile or you need to laugh. And that's a resource and a powerful resource to have at your disposal. So thinking about every interaction is an opportunity to do that.

I think it's like a cool way to look at the world and you may never even know that you have that effect on people. Sometimes it's impossible to know, but the opportunities are there. That certainly is. And Gabe, it led me to this final question I wanted to ask you. This podcast, when I created it, I was trying to find a way to help people live better,

to be better, and to make a meaningful impact on others. How do you envision good people influencing readers to take more intentional actions that contribute to a better, more compassionate world where they do try to live better and be better. John, that's a wonderful question. We do think of this book as a resource for comfort. And we think that we, as a society are in need of resources for comforts, that there is goodness out there.

And I know I keep saying this, but just seeing it helps you feel differently. And if you feel differently about the world, I think you're more likely to do good in the world. And if you're coming from it from a place where you're like, you know what humanity is worth fighting for, I believe in people's capacity for goodness. I believe in people's capacity for goodness. I believe in my own capacity for goodness.

And you just do it at a small scale and you carry that with you. Then I think you start having the chance to solve some of the very real big problems that are happening at scale. Cause you feel more motivated. You feel that you're coming from a place of optimism and hope as opposed to being ground down by cynicism and the belief that everything is bad. It's very difficult to think that you're going to solve a systemic issue. If you can't find muster the energy to move about the world in a way where beauty in it.

And so the hope is that good people is just one resource for capturing this feeling, this empowering feeling, this perspective changing feeling that can make more profound changes, both individually and systemically more possible. And from just a very nuts and bolts level, some of the common themes in this, in the book that have emerged that I stay with is like the power of listening to people, to being present. So many of the moments that led to stories came because someone was paying attention, was present, listened to somebody and what was going on, had the chance to share empathy,

to be empathic with them and the profound difference that made. Really back to your point about intentionality, there are forces at work that are trying to make us not listen, not be present, to be reactive. You react to things in the world and more reactions and stuff can lead to more reach and more monetization behind it. And so the art of listening and being present is something that requires some intentionality to pursue, but the rewards are huge, both for yourself, for the person that you're helping and for society at large.

Studies have been done showing that just listening to someone can help people feel better. Listening without judgment is one of the most important things that people can do and it can open doors to helping someone in a situation where they need help because if you're not paying attention you may never see it. Absolutely. Well, Gabe, it was such a pleasure having you on the show. If people want to learn more about your work, Lucia's, etc., where's the best place for them to go? Well, you can find us at Upworthy on all platforms and upworthy.com for our wonderful editorial.

And this book comes out September 3rd. It's going to be available at booksellers everywhere. And I encourage people to pick it up and read a story or two and to see how it makes you feel, because we think it might help. And we hope it will. Well, I absolutely believe it will and I so appreciate you joining us on the show today. It was such an honor to have you. Thank you, John. I really appreciate your time and being here. I thoroughly enjoyed that insightful interview with Gabriel Rylick. A big thank you goes out to

National Geographic, Fortier, Gabriel and the teams at good and up worthy for making this interview possible. Gabriel's work in highlighting the best of humanity reminds us all that the power of positivity can create real change. As always, you can find links related to everything about Gabriel in the show notes at passionstruck.com. If you're inspired to explore more, please use the links on our website when purchasing books from our guests. It's a great way to support the show and keep it free for all of you. You can also watch this episode's video on YouTube at both our main channel at John R. Miles and our clips channel at PassionStruck Clips. Please go and join over a quarter million other subscribers who tune in

weekly. And don't forget to check out our advertiser deals and discount codes at passionstruck.com slash deals. Supporting those who support this show keeps the community thriving. For daily doses of inspiration, then follow me on all the socials at John R. Miles. And if you're ever wondering how I book such incredible guests, it all comes down to building strong relationships. Networking is key. Create those connections before you need them. Most of the guests that you hear on the show are not only subscribers, but also contribute ideas for the topics that we explore. So why not join us?

You'll be in smart company. Before we wrap up, I wanna remind you about the PassionStruck quiz. If you're curious to find out where you stand on your own journey to living a more intentional, purpose-driven life, take the quiz at passionstruck.com slash quiz. It's a quick insightful way to understand your strengths

and discover areas where you can grow. Plus it's a fun way to engage deeper with the content that I share on the show. And now a sneak peek of our next episode in remembrance of 9-11, featuring Lieutenant Commander Dan Knosson. Dan's story is one of unparalleled resilience, from overcoming a life-altering injury in Afghanistan to becoming a Paralympian gold

medalist and earning multiple degrees from Harvard. His journey is a master class in perseverance and the relentless pursuit of excellence. Whether you're facing your own challenges or just need some inspiration to push beyond the limits. Dan's story will leave you empowered and ready to tackle whatever life throws your way. Don't miss this empowering conversation of turning adversity into triumph. As much as we like to think that we are national assets

as operators, these missions have go and no-go criteria and the loss of me, it doesn't affect the no go criteria. The mission continues and they stayed on scene as they should and continued with the mission. I do still to this day remember this light in my face from the flight surgeon. I don't know if he put me under immediately or if I just let myself go after all that effort of just trying to stay in the game on that drag down the hill, but I let myself go. And the next thing I remember waking up in a hospital room with my mother,

she'd feed away looking at me and I didn't know where am I and what is going on. Remember, the fee for the show is simple. Share it with friends or family when you find something useful or inspiring. If you know someone who's really dealing with mental health issues or could benefit from today's episode, please pass it along. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share this show with those that you care about. And as always, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can truly live what you listen.

Until next time, live life passion stride. You