Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Terri Cole on Breaking Free From High-Functioning Codependency EP 520

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

In this enlightening episode of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles welcomes back renowned therapist and author Terri Cole to discuss her latest book, "Too Much." Terri dives deep into high-functioning codependency (HFC) and how it affects our relationships and personal well-being.Discover the traits of HFC, the reasons behind the compulsion to fix others, and the importance of self-consideration. Terri shares powerful insights and practical exercises to help you break free from the cycle of over-giving and start prioritizing your own needs.Full show notes and resources:   https://passionstruck.com/terri-cole-break-high-functioning-codependency/SponsorsBabbel: Unlock the power of learning a new language with Babbel's innovative system. Passion Struck listeners can get 60% off their subscription at Babbel.com/PASSION.Hims: Regrow your hair before it's too late! Start your free online visit today at Hims.com/PASSIONSTRUCK.Quince: Experience luxury for less with Quince's premium products at radically low prices. Enjoy free shipping and 365-day returns at Quince.com/PASSION.For more information about our sponsors and promo codes, visit: passionstruck.com/dealsIn this episode, you will learn:The definition and traits of high-functioning codependencyHow to recognize when you're taking on others' problemsPractical steps to cultivate self-consideration and set healthy boundariesThe significance of understanding your relational blueprintConnect with Terri Cole: https://www.terricole.com/Order Passion StruckUnlock the principles that will transform your life! Order my book, Passion Struck: Twelve Powerful Principles to Unlock Your Purpose and Ignite Your Most Intentional Life. Recognized as a 2024 must-read by the Next Big Idea Club, this book has earned accolades such as the Business Minds Best Book Award, the Eric Hoffer Award, and the Non-Fiction Book Awards Gold Medal. Order your copy today and ignite your journey toward intentional living!Catch More Passion StruckMy solo episode on Bridging Divides Through Love and KindnessCan’t miss my episode with Lily Walford on How to Create Compatible LoveWatch my episode with Teri Cole on How to Create Healthy Boundaries & Inner PeaceDiscover my interview with Amy Leigh Mercree on Master Your Aura, Master Your LifeCatch my interview with Dr. Scott Rick on Should You Marry for Love or MoneyIf you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review! Even one sentence helps. Be sure to include your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can personally thank you!Show Less

Coming up next on Passion Struck. So we're changing our blueprints by becoming aware of why we relate in our relationships, platonic, professional, and otherwise, the way that we do. So that's really what the blueprint will do for you. You answer the question and then you get clarity like, oh my gosh, I did not realize I was repeating my parents' relationship here or that I saw this and that's why I'm doing it or my culture taught me that this was the right way to be. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles.

And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now let's go out there and become passion struck.

Hey, passion struck fam. Welcome back to episode 520 of the passion struck podcast. I am so grateful for your continued energy, passion, and commitment to living a more intentional life. Week after week, you show up ready to elevate your life, and that's what makes this community so powerful. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome to the PassionStruck family. You've just joined a community that's all about igniting purpose and living boldly with

intention, and we're excited to have you on this transformative journey. Before we dive into today's episode, let me take a moment to recap some of the incredible conversations that we had last week. I had the privilege of speaking with Maha Abu-Ellene about mastering self-reliance and building a personal brand that stands out in today's ever-changing world. And then I sat down with Topaz Adedis, an award-winning writer and director to explore the power of storytelling and human connection through his work on the documentary series The And. If you haven't had a chance to listen to those episodes yet, I highly recommend checking

them out. For those of you who want to take these insights even deeper, don't forget to sign up for my Live Intentionally newsletter. Each week I send out exclusive content, practical exercises, and tools to help you apply the lessons we discuss on the podcast directly to your life. Head over to passionstruck.com slash newsletter and start living with more intention today. And if you're wondering where to begin with the podcast, we've made it super easy with our episode Starter Packs.

With over 500 episodes, it can be overwhelming to know where to start. So we've curated playlists based on themes like leadership, mental health, and personal growth. Check them out on Spotify or visit passionstruck.com slash starter packs to dive in. Now onto today's episode. I am so excited to welcome back my good friend Terry Cole, who you may remember from episode 287, where we discussed how to create healthy boundaries. You loved that episode, so we knew we had to bring Terry back for another deep dive,

this time to talk about her new book, Too Much, a guide to breaking the cycle of high function and codependency. In today's conversation, we're going to explore why so many of us feel compelled to do it all. In today's conversation, we're going to explore why so many of us feel compelled to do it all. What drives these over-giving behaviors and how we can begin taking steps towards recovery and lasting freedom? Terry has spent over two decades working with everyone from celebrities to Fortune 500 CEOs, helping them break free from the cycle of high-functioning codependency,

where individuals, though highly capable, struggle with over-accommodating to the point of burnout. Terry's unique approach blends practical psychology with Eastern mindfulness practices, making her strategies not just accessible, but deeply transformative. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by constantly being the one to handle everything or found it difficult to say no, this is the episode for you.

Terry will help us to recognize the signs of high function and codependency, break the cycle and reclaim our time, energy and sense of self. And if you loved this episode or any of those others we mentioned, we would so appreciate you giving it a 5 five star rating and review. Now, thank you for choosing Passionstruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am absolutely thrilled to welcome back on this show

my friend, the one and only Terry Cole. Hey, Terry. Hey, John, thanks for having me back. We had such an amazing conversation in episode 287 for those who want to tune back and hear that. We were talking about creating healthy boundaries in inner peace. And it was such a popular episode

that when I heard you had another book coming out, I was so thrilled to have you back on. What's transpired in your work and personal life since that episode about a year and a half ago? What's interesting is that from Boundary Boss, the first book, all the feedback, getting all this feedback, I wrote one chapter on high functioning codependency, which is a concept that I originated and trademarked, and that's what this book is about.

But I only had one chapter about it in the first book. It was unanimous that people were like, oh my God, I need more information about this. I feel like I am this. I never thought it was codependent. There was all of this feedback. I always thought we needed another book on codependency because the seminal text that's been out there for years,

Codependent No More, Melody Beatty, is very addiction-oriented. So a lot of people have the idea that the only way you can be codependent is if you're enabling an alcoholic or an addict, which is not true. So that's really how it came about. And also, John, I could say you teach what you most need to learn. So I can conclusively say that I am a recovering

high functioning court defendant at this point in my life, but clearly it was a relational pattern that I had that caused a lot of pain in my life before I figured out what it was. Well this begs the question for me. First, how did you come up with the name Too Much for the book? If you think about how I came up with it, I liked it because it could mean different things to different people.

Some people, women in particular, are like, I love the name, because when I was younger, people would always tell me I was too much. You know what I mean? So they identify with it that way. Well, what it really came from for me is that when you are a high functioning co-dependency,

you are doing too much, feeling too much, managing too much, trying to control too much. It's just all too much. So that's why I named it too much. Okay. And the second question is you brought up this term that you trademarked, which is high functioning codependency.

How does that differ from traditional ideas about codependency? Well, let's start with, I'll give you my definition, codependency, right? It's when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, circumstances, the situations, the finances, the relationships of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. So with that codependency, with my therapy clients, they would be talking to me about something and I would point out, oh, that's a codependency with my therapy clients, they would be talking to me about something and I would point

out, oh, that's a codependent relational pattern that you're describing. And immediately at the word codependent, they will be like, no, that is definitely not me. Because I had very capable, high functioning women in particular, in my practice, then they were like dependent. I'm not dependent on squat. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making all the moves. I'm making all the decisions.

I'm managing all the people. I'm making sure everything gets done. What are you talking about? And what I realized is that my clients didn't know what co-dependency was and that they were highly influenced by the old school definition where they did not see themselves. And this was my own personal flavor, by the way, of co-dependency in my life as well.

Where a lot of times we have this image if we think of someone who's co-dependent as like a weak-willed, long-suffering woman waiting for for alcoholic man or debtor, we have this vision of that codependency equals weakness, or it's not true at all. It's really about boundaries. It's about disordered or healthy boundaries, but it is about doing too much. So what I did with my clients, I needed them to see themselves in the actual problem that they had. And so I coined the phrase,

how functioning codependency, because that is what I saw in my practice and that is what I was in my 20s and early 30s. And as soon as I changed them, or not to quote Taylor Swift, but I will, they were like, me, it's me, I'm the problem, it's me. They were able to, without shame, say, wow, that is me. Well, since you brought your own personal experiences up,

because I really think we are best positioned to serve the person we once were, which is exactly what you're saying. You open up the book by sharing a story about bringing a stranger home named Billy because you felt compelled to help him. How did this moment and others like it in your life shape your understanding of,

I'm just gonna abbreviate it, HFC? The story itself, and I think that listeners can identify with this, is being someone in need and feeling very compelled to help them. This was a kid who was standing on a train platform. I was going from Long Island to Manhattan. I was 10.30 at night already. He was probably 19 and I was probably 22, but to me he seemed very young. He's holding a little blanket and I'm like, what the hell? What is going on?

My helper radar was like, what is happening over here? I started chatting him up on the train and I said, where are you going? I said, what? I was supposed to be driving a car back to Indiana, and then the gig got canceled. I said, where are you going? He goes, I'm just going to go to the station.

I'm like, what station? He said, Penn Station. I was like, no, you're not, buddy. He's going to go to the station. I'm like, what station? He said Penn Station. I was like, no, you're not, buddy. He's someone asleep in the station. I was like, have you been there? He's like, no. I go, you're going to get mugged, you can't sleep in Penn Station. He said, well, I don't know anybody in New York.

I go, yeah, you do. You know me. You're coming on with me. It's so. That was how I came to bring a perfect stranger home to my studio apartment that I shared with a girlfriend Decided like I was just bringing home the psycho killer to kill me where I was also endangering my friend potentially So this over responsibility Even for strangers. This is a unique

element of HFCs and not all are like, the more extroverted kind, which is the kind I am, feel not just overly responsible for the people you love and your siblings and your partner and your grown kids and all of the things. It could be Billy on a perfect stranger on a train platform.

So all these experiences in my life made me realize that as I got into therapy, right, in my 20s and really started digging in, because there was that whole other situation in my 20s that happened similar where I met someone at a rape crisis training weekend. She was in an abusive relationship and I was begging her to leave. I didn't even know it. It was like 12 hours in. I was like, you have to get out of this marriage. It's terrible. And then she called me and said, can I come just stay with you for a night?

Because I did it, Terry. You convinced me to leave. And then she came to my, another student, different studio apartment with her dog and six bags. And I like took on this woman's thing. The rest of the story is in the book. But the point is, when we are prioritizing the wants, needs, desires of other people or other people's circumstances over our own well-being, there's something dysfunctional

in that. And it might, the compulsive-ness, because that's what it's about. People will push back, John O'Lan, people will be like, maybe I'm'm just really nice maybe I'm just like mother Teresa like that and I'm like here's the thing if we can't not do it is not you being nice it is a compulsion just like any other compulsion where the other this person being in a situation made you as an hfc feel some kind of way that you did not like, and you want to not feel that way. And so what we do is immediately take action to fix the problem.

Well, this begs the question, how do you even start asking yourself, is this even my problem to solve when helping others like Billy? Why do you feel so many of us feel like we need to take on other people's problems? And what are some of the practical takeaways on how a listener could learn to pause and assess

whether a situation is truly theirs to fix? Yes. Well, let's start with, if it's okay with you, I feel like it could be helpful to start with, what are the traits of being an HXT so that people can go, yes, I have that, or no, I don't. Then we'll talk about behaviors, and that'll get into how you can change it.

So- Yep, I think that sounds great. Yep. Okay, good. All right, so feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems, or we already hit that one. Giving till it hurts, right? Going above and beyond, even when you're not asked to. A lot of times we end up being

the boundary trampolers inadvertently. We think we're helping, but we don't even ask the person, well, you seemed tired last night, so I just dropped by with a cup of coffee. I didn't call to see if it was okay with you. It's just I wanted to help, so I did it. Always ready to jump into damage control, being judgmental about others because as HFCs, we really are highly capable.

That is the iron of the HFC condition, that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency, as I say. But we're a little judgmental because we have this grade A advice that we're always joling out because we are these auto-advice givers and we can be mad when people don't take it,

if you're frustrated, when they have the same problem, even though we're like, I had your solution, I don't know why you're not doing it. Another trait is feeling exhausted, feeling resentful, feeling underappreciated, maybe feeling a little bit bitter in your relationships from overgiving and overdoing. And another trait is not really having respect

for other people's right to be self-determined or separate. This is really the codependent part where your feelings are impacting my feelings. So I want to fix your feelings rather than respecting that you have a right to have your feelings. Everyone has the right to succeed and fail, to thrive and to flail in life. This is how we learn. This is how we do it. It's not a simulation. We're actually doing it right now in real time. But when you're in HFC view and

codependency in general, at its core, there is a covert or overt thing to control other people's outcomes. We don't know, to go back to your question, is this even my problem to fix? Because instead of having a clarity of what is on my side of the street, I think I'm responsible for the whole neighborhood, right? So those are good traits, which we can talk about if you want.

If not, I'll go into the behaviors. I wanna ask you about this trait, these traits, because for those who might not be familiar with you spent years earlier in your career working with a diverse range of clients, from celebrities to CEOs, even stay-at-home parents. And many of those, especially the CEOs and the celebrities, show up in their lives as high achievers.

When you look at these traits, is high achieving codependency more prevalent in high achievers and does it mask itself in some way? Actually, it's a great question and it's true. So high functioning codependency, there is a tendency for that clientele to be high achievers, to be highly capable. It's not mandatory, right?

Because if, once I'm going to get into this behavioral list, if you see yourself there, whether you're successful in business or not, if you have the behaviors, I think it's, we can conclusively say you're an HFST. But I do see them a lot going hand in hand because part of the problem when you're HFC is like, we're checking in on everyone else, but no one thinks to check in on us because as my clients will say to me

when they were denying being co-dependent, they're like, everyone counts on me. I'm the rock in my family of origin. I'm the one in my friend group who's always making sure that we, you know, rent the Airbnb in time or I'm tallying up the dinner, the dinner receipts or whatever it is. So the capability, that's what the mask is. And this is why so many people couldn't see it, because there's the myths about codependency run really deep. People think it only can happen to women.

It only happens in romantic relationships. Only weak people are codependent. Like, it is obviously, it has nothing to do with weak and strong, but that's the myths. And I think that people don't like to be associated with those. They don't experience themselves be associated with those.

They don't experience themselves as weak, especially the women in my practice and me too. I was always fierce. So if you had told me 20 years ago, I was good opinion, I would have said, no, that's like ridiculous. I'm not. But I was. And I think that with the behaviors, again, I get a lot of pushback when we start

talking about behaviors, because people again go, like, what's the problem with wanting to be a helper? So one of the first behaviors is the auto-advice giving, which is giving unsolicited advice. And listen, this is not just a gender thing. Obviously, I wrote this book in some respects, through the lens of being a woman and working with women in particular, people who identify that way. But I already have so many men saying, I'm an HFC. I identify with this too, especially men with the auto-advice given, right? Because a lot of times it feels like that's your role is to be a fixer for people, right?

You're the arts that people want. Being openly self-sacrificing is another thing where, as HFCs, we're always willing to take one for the team. Someone always needs something more than we do. So, and what's really happening is we want to avoid conflict. So instead of negotiating for ourselves, we go, it's no big deal.

I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill. I got to want to, it's fine. I can do it. Oh, the car is broken. You take the other car, I'll get the Uber. I'll handle it, it's fine. So that brings us into the next one, which is auto accommodating.

And auto accommodating, meaning you see a need and you just wrap yourself around what that need is. You see a need and you have a compulsion to fix it. We can auto accommodate on a plane because we see people who want to sit together. We can auto accommodate anywhere. How I actually, how it struck me years ago that the auto accommodating,

and even though I was in recovery from HFC, you're never going to be cured. The best we can do is just like any other addiction, is to get into recovery, which means we can change our behaviors. So I was getting my hair done at my very busy salon in Manhattan, and I was laying in the sink, and I have a mask on my hair.

Now the sink line is getting long. The longer the sink line is getting, the more my anxiety is shooting through the roof. I don't need to be taken up the sink. I should tell the girl that I'm a little bit upset, so I raise my hand to have her come over. She's like, yeah, we're good lady. Don't worry about it. Here's me literally

trying to control their sink flow. What is wrong with me? And when you think about HXT, being a high functioning codependent also means you have this high antenna. We are codependently dialed into our surroundings as well as people. So that was an environment situation

that instead of sitting there meditating Listening to a podcast resting my entire brain Calling my mother there was a million things I could have been doing that would have been nourishing to me But instead I was trying to control the sink flow at my salon And I knew it I was like if I'm still doing this crap after all these years of therapy, I'm definitely not alone. And I put out something on that and it went viral. It was like, I don't know, 147,000 views in 28 days where people were like, oh my God, this is me everywhere. This is me all the time. So after auto accommodating,

we have anticipatory planning where you know you're going to be with let's say someone who's difficult or family members or people who don't like each other. You know, you're anticipating all the crap that could go along and doing everything that you can preemptive to control that it doesn't go wrong, which is also exhausting. Because a lot of times those scenarios don't even come into play. And then you have over-functioning, and this can create an over- and under-functioning dynamic in your relationships.

I used to say in my 20s, I had this very special skill that I could turn a completely normally functioning man into an under-functioner in two weeks or less, where I was like, I got it, whatever the thing was. Make the reservation, I got it, yeah, no worries, I got it. Which, as my mother would tell you, if you continue to do everything and you need it to be done in a particular way, oh, you'll continue to do it,

but you'll be doing all the things and you'll be doing them by yourself. Because people just stop offering when you never accept and allow help. Well, I think it's so important to go through those behaviors. And I wanted to touch on one misconception that I don't think you talked about.

And earlier in the year, I was having a conversation with Gabby Bernstein, and we were talking about addiction. And oftentimes when we think of addiction, we think of drug or alcohol addiction, but you could be addicted to work, you could be addicted to sex, you could be addicted to a relationship. And I think one of the biggest misconceptions of codependency is that it only occurs in relationships with someone with an addiction. Why do you think that myth persists?

And how does codependency really show up in other types of relationships? Okay, so I think that it persists because the truth is the people who really founded this concept of codependency were all from the addiction world. They were all from this area of Minnesota. There was like 10 of these very well-known people at the time and they were really all dealing with people with addiction issues. It's hard to get it out of that mindset because it was so deeply rooted in that world,

which actually I break down the whole process of how that went down in the book. I think that's why. I also think that there is not a book like this out there now, I mean, now there is, but there hasn't been. If you have the seminal text around the concept of codependency written by someone who was an addiction counselor and someone who was in recovery themselves and deeply rooted in that world, then that's the text that stands, which is why I knew there was another book that needed to be written for people who are not,

you don't have to be any addiction and this you can be a full-blown high functioning co-dependent with having no addiction issues. So to get back to your question about how does it present in real life in other types of relationships. So what we're really looking at is an over and under functioning dynamic. Think about in a relationship where the person who is the they're both codependent in some way, but I look at the person who's doing the over-functioning as more of the active codependent who's reading it.

So that is someone who is doing more, right? Doing things for the other person that they can and should be doing for themselves. Anticipating someone's needs. Doing things that create what is called unhealthy helping. And PhD Sean Burrins coined that phrase and it's like instead of having the way that you're interacting with the person create more mutuality or interdependency right which is what we want and certainly in romantic relationships and friendships too it's creating codependency right am I creating a healthy dependency or an unhealthy dependency in my behavior so if let's give an example, someone has a 40 year old adult son who is bad with

managing money and every month they transfer money into their adult son's checking account so that they don't bounce their rent check. That's fiscal codependency because the help that the parent is given to the adult child is not helping the adult child manage their own crap. The parent's not going to be around forever. It's the 40-year-old's job to figure out their fiscal nest or whatever it is, understand why am I still doing this. So with codependency, we are really robbing the other person, right? Their autonomy and their sovereignty. But this can happen in family relationships.

It can happen, it happens all the time with children, right? The older kids and bigger kids. Because if you are saving your children, quote unquote, if you don't want them to feel one moment of distress in life life and you march down to that school and you tell that whatever, helicopter parents who get involved with their kids, friendships who are the real thing, John, that is so painful about this reckoning with having being a high function codependent is that for me, I really thought, not that it was mother truth, I didn't think that, but I really did think my actions were

rooted in love and kindness. And what really ends up being revealed is that when it's a compulsion, what I was really doing so much of the time is that someone has a problem and we center ourselves and our grade A advice as the solution that they need. So what do we do instead, right? What can we do instead of auto-advice caring? Well, you can ask expansive questions, right? If your friend comes to you with a job,

I'm going to get a divorce. I think I should have to get a divorce. I'm exhausted, I'm sick of this crap, I want to get a divorce. Instead of you saying, don't get a divorce, or yes, I never liked her, please do. Instead of you getting your opinion, you saying, they're telling, why do you think?

You want to get a divorce? What happened? Right? When someone comes to me for advice, which of course, obviously as an HFC, I became a therapist so I could give people advice all freaking day. I mean, not really, but we choose professions where it's always part of what you do. The first thing, even when they want my opinion, is for me, what I say is, hey, before I say anything, I want to know what your gut instinct says about this. If you did know, what would it be? Because here's the thing,

nobody knows more than you what you should do in your life. And even if you don't know right now, it will come to you. And I'm here with you in the foxhole, not trying to fix you, not treating you like you're a project of mine that I could fix so that I could get on with my day and not be stressed out about your stress, which is what it is.

I can't tolerate your feelings. I'm gonna fix you so that my feelings are the way I want them to be. Everything running smooth. One of the things I picked up as I was going through the book was this whole concept of narcissism that's tied into HFCs. And why is it that those who are HFC

are drawn to narcissists? What's the root cause of this attraction? And how can people break this cycle? It's a great question because it's such a painful trap to get snared in and it is very hard to extricate yourself. And of course you can, but why the irresistible, this productive pairing between the HFC and the narcissist. Because a narcissist says,

this is all gonna be about me, babe. This is all about me. And the HFC says, great. Can't wait to make it all about you. I will move heaven and earth to get your needs met. Because that's what makes me feel comfortable. You're happy, but it only lasts for so long. Sooner or later, the cycle becomes too much, but it makes sense.

It's like a perfect hand in glove, and you have to be aware of what is being provoked in you. If you are this uber caregiving, if you are this hyper helper, so to speak, if you're the person who always gets things done, you're so efficient. The narcissist loves it. You're getting things done for them. You're focusing on their life.

You're focusing on what they want and their feelings. And while they're pleased with you, that works great for everybody. But they won't stay pleased with you because that's the nature of narcissism. If they really are at narcissistic personality disorder, that they will need more supply. And how they get supply is through provoking you to have any kind of feelings, but mostly upset feelings. There's a power in that for them. So you go through the cycle, everything is amazing, and then something happens, and then

it starts going away. And then there's the discard of the cycle where usually they either they're always threatening to end the relationship or they actually do end the relationship. And then sometimes take up with your sister or I mean, like if it's just so bad, but you can heal from it yourself, right? But we have to get out of those, because you're really,

when you're talking about a narcissistic relationship, John, we're talking about an abusive, at the very least, an emotionally abusive relationship. Absolutely. I think there's also some correlation between narcissists and high achievers in some sense. Oh, absolutely. I mean, statistics tell us, you know,

that how much of the time. Narcissists, the internet would make you think narcissists were super easy to point out. I'm gonna state not true. In that, if you spend time with someone, yes, but you can have a parent who's a narcissist and your friends are like, oh my God, man, you're so lucky your mom is so cool. You're like, not really that cool to me.

Why does my mother want to be friends with my friends? Why is my mother flirting with my boyfriend when I'm 16? Why does my mother want to wear white to my wedding? That's Ida Kine, her narcissistic mother, was insisting that she was going to wear white to her daughter's wedding. Wow. Just as low as you can go, but again, from the outside, there's no sign on someone's back that says I'm a narc. That's not there. So I think that we want to be aware, your question will be, either, how can people get out of these relationships? But even better, how can we stop them before we get trapped?

And I think that one really good way of doing it is first of all, slow them. Because if you are with the narcissist, they are going to be accelerating the crap out of that romantic timeline. They're going to be talking to you early date three, they'll be talking about taking a vacation in a year from that with you. All this future pacing to make you go, oh my gosh, they're really serious about when they really mean it. While they're lug bombing the crap out of you, which is telling you how amazing you are, sex is awesome, amazing gifts,

they're sweeping you off your feet. That's the beginning. And that's the part that people get addicted to because it feels so good until it doesn't. So my thought is the timeline needs to be at your pleasure. You have to decide. If you have plans with your friends, don't change your plan. If you want to push back to see how this person is who seems so, so wonderful and they make a plan for Friday night and you say, Hey, you know what? I know you made reservations for Italian, but I really would like Japanese Friday night thing. Let's see if very thin ego can tolerate that And my professional guess is going to be that they're going to be so pissed

That you are messing up their perfect plan that they had that how entitled you are how ungrateful you are They may be able to hide it in the beginning, but they won't be able to Forever. So part of it is If it feels too good to be true, it is And if someone in two weeks is talking about moving in with you, put the brakes on, is what I say, because they will reveal themselves. If you push back up against them at all, they will reveal themselves. But you have to know in Boundary Boss, they will the whole entire chapter on the manipulation tactics of boundary destroyers, I call them. And that

includes narcissistic personality disorder and any other question of personality disorder, where all the manipulation tactics of faux concern, gaslighting, where they'll be like, John, I'm really worried about you. And I wasn't gonna say anything, but Bob also said, he thinks you're going off the rails. Right, planting these seeds of doubt. I mean, it's really scary to be involved with someone like that. So trust your gut instinct. And the real key is to slow down.

Because if you slow it down, they are love bombing you and a narcissist, they're gonna be pissed and it's gonna be obvious. So at your pleasure, right, you decide how quickly you go, whether it's sexually, whether it's emotionally, how many times a week you wanna see this person. Terry, I didn't even know if you knew this.

I'm glad you brought up the Boundary Destroyer because it was one of my favorite chapters of that last book. I liked it so much that I actually incorporated you you brought up the Boundary Destroyer because it was one of my favorite chapters of that last book. I liked it so much that I actually incorporated you and that concept into my own book. I have this chapter that I call the Mosquito Auditor and I talk about you've got to identify different mosquitoes who are invisible influences, which is something that you talk about in Boundary Boss, those

influences who consciously or unconsciously are disrupting your flow through life. And the first one I identify is the bloodsucker who is really that boundary destroyer. So I love that concept. And another thing that I loved about your first book that you're bringing into this one is exploring blueprints. In Boundary Boss, you called it boundary blueprints. But you're also doing the same thing in this book. And I'm going to introduce this question this way. In the book, you introduce a quote by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, Carl Jung, who said, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will quote by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, Carl Jung, who said, "'Until you make the unconscious conscious,

"'it will direct your life and you will call it fate.'" And what you write about this is, "'What we remain unaware of can most definitely hurt us "'and impact the trajectory of our lives.'" So, if you don't have this HFC blueprint, which is basically an architecture, how does, I guess I'll ask it this way, how does creating, what is this blueprint

and how does creating this architecture help you to get over the deeply ingrained beliefs, values, ideas, behaviors that are based on everything from our childhood experiences to culture, religion, community, gender, race, et cetera? Well, part of it is this is a relational blueprint, right? I had a certain bunch of concepts that I created in my 2017 year career that are like core concepts. Now, we are using this concept of blueprint,

but we're seeing it through the lens of relational patterns and issues. We learned this from childhood. We looked at the adults in our life and how they related. What we're actually doing when we are uncovering your relational blueprint, it's already there, it's in your unconscious mind. What we're doing through the process and

questions that I'm providing for you and the sort of looking back to look forward is letting you see, oh, this is where I learned that to be a good wife or partner, I must be completely self-sacrificing. We start seeing the things that make sense. You have to understand what your beliefs are currently, which requires us to bring them from the basement, the unconscious mind, to the main part of the house, the conscious mind.

Then we can actually change them. So we're changing our blueprints by becoming aware of why we relate in our relationships, platonic, professional and otherwise, the way that we do. So that's really what the blueprint will do for you. You answer the question, and then you get clarity like, oh my gosh, I did not realize I was repeating my parents' relationship here, or that I saw this and that's why I'm doing it,

or my culture taught me that this was the right way to be. If we look at women in particular, My culture taught me that this was the right way to be. If we look at women in particular, there's this whole sacrificial thing that is really celebrated in our society. It's like Betty is someone who would give this sure offer back to anybody. You'd love her. I'm like, would I? Or would I think that Betty should keep her frigging shirt on.

That's probably what I think. Because not everyone deserves that. And that level of self-sacrificing isn't helping. So that's where the blueprint comes in. You answer a bunch of questions, get clarity on how you're relating now, then we can consciously choose to relate differently. So I just have to bring up one of your heroes because what you were just talking about is what

Dr. Harriet Lerner calls an emotional service station, which I had never really heard that term before, but I love it. And what it really means is what you were describing is you become this person that everyone in your life comes to you. You fill them up with all this goodness and energy, and then you keep rinse, repeat, do it again, but you're not getting it back from anyone. And the thing that I liked when you were talking about this is that if a person is in this cycle, they need to do a radical, and I love this term radical, move to break the cycle. What are some initial steps a person who finds themselves in that cycle can do to break that cycle?

I think the first one is to not beat yourself up if you discover this about yourself. Really get radically curious, speaking of being radical, about why you live this way. That your heart is in the right place and that you can make next right action, then the next right action is how we're going to change this thing. So first of all, start with having lots of self-compassion. We want to start looking at the self-consideration in our life. That's almost a whole chapter that I'm writing about,

which I call it self-consideration because I think it's different than self-love, which I feel like is just used to death on the interwebs and no one even knows what it means. And self-care just sounds like a mani-pedi. Where self-consideration is really us not automatically saying yes or jumping in to all these situations that we insert ourselves into.

Self-consideration is us slowing down and saying, do I have the bandwidth to help John with his project? Let me think about it, telling you, I need to think about it, getting back to you and saying, do I have the bandwidth to help John with his project? Let me think about it, telling you I need to think about it, getting back to you and saying, you know what, I actually don't have the bandwidth to help you with it, but I'd be happy to read it when you're done and give you my two cents then, or whatever it is. But most of the time when you're in HXT, you're just doing it. So what you have to do is raise your awareness about your specific behaviors. And how do we know where our behaviors need to change? Well, you can do a resentment inventory

where you're really looking at, who am I gonna stop at in my life? Who do I feel underappreciated by? Who do I feel a little taken advantage of? That's usually where you're overwhelming. Whether they've asked you to or not, sometimes people do, sometimes they don't. We need to set better boundaries, set limits with people. Allow yourself to not give anyone an automatic yes to anything. You have a right to think about how you feel.

Not wanting to do something is honestly a completely legitimate reason not to do it. You have to think about other people's lives. Mel Robbins has this great thing that she talks about. It's called let them. And my take on it is slightly different, but it's when you think about wanting to control your adult child's life, you have to in your mind say, let them do what they're going to do.

Let them live. Now it's an illusion of control that you're quote unquote letting them because reality check is you're actually not. But there's like a relief to your nervous system. What you're really saying is that isn't my situation. I'm going to get back on my own side of the street. I'm here if they want to talk, but I'm not going to insert myself as the answer. Because when we do that, how do other people grow?

You stay in the way that we grow, they need to grow, they need to fail, they need to do whatever it is they're doing and be loved through it. They don't need you to stop them from making mistakes. Because as my therapist told me many years ago, you don't know what they need to learn in this lifetime and how they're going to do it. So I think slowing down the impulsive nature of this affliction can be really helped by having a dedicated meditation practice, questioning like what you're doing in the moment, slowing down, listening to your body.

And when it comes to the people in your life that you feel bad that you're not quote unquote, fixing, become an empathic listener, right? We can be with people, we can love them. It's harder and way more loving. For me to say to you, John, how can I best support you right now? Tell me.

And then for me to do that instead of me being like, John, you know what you need to do? You need to just call this person, I already got you a lawyer, I'm doing X, Y, and Z because I want it off my plate. That doesn't feel good, does it? So for those who are listening, Carrie just talked about three important concepts. One is that we need to make self-consideration the new self-care. She talked about taking a resentment inventory and how it's so

important to do that inventory to break unhealthy patterns. Then lastly, she brought up the let them strategy and how it can help us navigate relationships more effectively. And I've had to employ that myself, my two kids. And I guess I have tried to parent differently than my parents parented me, which was basically by trying to micromanage my life. And what I've tried to do with my kids is I feel like having them make mistakes earlier in life Is a much better way to learn than micromanaging them to the point that when they're making

Fatal mistakes in life. It's when they have huge consequences Well, another thing that you bring up Terry is this concept of living life light Can you explain what that is? bring up, Terry, is this concept of living life light. Can you explain what that is? Because I think it goes into perhaps what we were talking about with the blueprint, but I'm hoping you could expand upon it. Sure. I came up with this concept because I was seeing

the level of preoccupation in my clients who are high functioning codependents and my own level of preoccupation when I was actively before I got into recovery. The preoccupation we have with other people's feelings, trying to control a situation that aren't ours, being in conversation, but we're really not that present in the conversation because we're trying to control the conversation.

We don't want it to go a certain way. We're very dialed into our surroundings. So I'd be talking to someone. I always felt like I could do both very well, but probably that's not accurate. So like light means that when your mind is constantly ruminating about other things, and we're constantly thinking about other people

and the pain that they're in and the things that they're doing, what we need to do for them. We're not fully experiencing our own lives. We're only half present. It's very similar to how I hear about the younger generation that is always connected to their phones. You're watching a movie, but you're also on your phone. That movie is going to hit different

because you did not give it your undivided attention. And this is the same thing. Like we're splitting our attention when you're an active HFC, where you're just, your mind is always thinking of something else. And your present moment consciousness is almost not existent because there's always onto the next, what is the next thing to handle? What is the next thing I need to do? That big thing. And it really takes away a lot of the juiciness

and the joy in life. It really does. takes away a lot of the juiciness and the joy in life. It really does. Terry, I thought a way that we could maybe make this come to life for people and use this as a practical exercise is throughout the book, the way you write it is you tell different stories, you then have different activities

and exercises people can do. You provide examples, et cetera. But one of the personal stories that you talk about, in addition to the one that we brought up with Billy, was someone named Andrea, who is this highly successful lawyer. And let's just say, they could be a highly successful doctor or a business person or actor and actress

or whatever you want it to be. But in her case, this, her life ends up leading to tons of stress and she ends up having a panic attack, which I think many of us can feel what that's like because we've been there. What is it about high functioning co-dependence like Andrea that makes it so reluctant to recognize their needs? And I was hoping maybe through Andrea, because people I think can relate to her, maybe you can walk them through. If you're feeling like

Andrea was, what are some immediate exercises that they could do? So for Andrea, she was like the queen of managing stress supposedly, because she had such a busy work 60 hours a week. There was all these things. She had young kids. She was like the center of her friends group. She did all the things. And she ended up, and she was helping her babysitter,

her nanny with something after a long day. Her assistant was out. There was all of these things. It was like piling up and piling up. She ends up trying to counsel her babysitter about her boyfriend, who she thinks stepped out on her. All of a sudden, she felt like there was an elephant sitting on her chest. She ends up, when I finally see her the next week,

because she canceled last minute the week before, which is super unlike her. She was so friggin' organized and would come in literally with talking points to therapy. She patted together and I had no idea what happened. And she didn't believe it. She said, I was definitely having a heart attack and they told me it was a panic attack. And I was like, but Andrea, EKG, you just told me the EKG said you were not having a RZAC. And it was so painful for her to recognize that it was too much. What she was doing was too much. And even though she denied it in her mind, the wisdom of her body, right, her body was

telling another story that it is too much and I cannot go at this pace and I need to rest. And I see with a lot of HFCs we can do that in our 20s and maybe even into your early 30s. But as age happens, you really need to conserve your bandwidth and be pouring into yourself. So with Andrea, once we got her to a place of acceptance of, wow, that really is what happened. We started adding all of these things into her life that she would never have done before. Meditating was one of the ones. And for a lot of my clients, meditation was hard. So what I started doing long before I was a meditation teacher, long before I had meditation CDs, I would just spontaneously do it in the office.

And then they would put it on their phone and then they would have that. So I was always doing guided meditations, custom for my clients in the office to whatever they were going through. So that was the beginning for her to feel like she could do it. I purposefully in my office created what I called the zeng den, little lights and lavender smell and candles so that I wanted my clients to speak. You can create this in your life too, right? It doesn't all have to be this fast pace. So that was the beginning for her was learning to meditate and also starting to,

we did a whole, we did a whole thing about her marriage and her business, all of the things that she was doing and came up with ideas of what are things that she could not do? What are things that she's outgrown? What are things that make no sense? That she's still the person doing them, when she was high up in her law firm. And so that was a very eye-opening experience. I don't know if I even wrote that in the book, but that was one of the things that we did do that was helpful for her. And she started looking at self-consideration from a completely different lens of that it was going to have her be better for her children in her marriage. It's not about being more efficient. When you are in recovery for being

a high functioning codependent, what you're gaining is being more present right here, right now, because this moment that we're sharing right now is the only one that we're actually guaranteed we're gonna get. So all of this future pacing and all of this future living doesn't help. So we were able to help Andrea slow down enough to actually being here now.

Thank you for sharing that story. And as a person, as a fellow host, one of the things that means the most to me is when I hear listeners write in and so I just wanted to highlight this one from your book because I love how you incorporated in the book. The listener's name is Carla, a self-identified recovering HFC who wanted to share her story with you. And she said that she was at their daughter's wedding and her husband ends up having this

frightening outburst during a time meant for joy. And driven by recent insights into her own behavior from listening to your podcasts and reading your books, she recognized the need to respond thoughtfully. She broke her old habits of impulsively excusing his actions. And she took the time to compose herself and then basically went to him and outlined her non-negotiable boundaries,

which was he needed to see counseling, re-engage with the church, and build a supportive network. And if he failed to do those, she was no longer willing to accept his actions. And I think it's an powerful example that kind of wraps up today's episode because she recognized she was an HFC. She recognized that she needed to establish boundaries.

One thing I liked about it is she took the time to step away from it, to organize her thoughts on how she wanted to deal with the situation, which she knew could be delicate, but then she firmly put in place what her boundaries were and the ramifications for him if he didn't accept them. So I really appreciated that story. It just warms my heart to hear people negotiating for their own needs in a way that feels empowering

to them. You don't have to be mad. You don't have to flip out. It's just powerful to know what you are no longer tolerating. It feels good to be able to say, hey, we could work this out, but this is what's required of you. And then if he doesn't do it,

that's on his side of the street. And Terry, my last question for you is, you've put a ton of effort as you always do when you're writing one of these books, to get too much into the world. What is one key thing that you hope a reader or a listener of today's podcast will take away if they don't take away anything else?

You can change your life. If you're identifying, being exhausted, you feel burnt out, if you're over-giving, over-feeling, over-functioning in your relationships, you better give all this responsibility. You can change how you are relating and that will change your life. There is so much more joy, expansion, surrender, allowing people to do things for you in your life instead of being so hyper-independent, which is what HFCs tend to be. But just have hope that one next right action at a time, you can do it.

In fact, I have a gift for your audience. It's just like a freaking HFC toolkit to help people who wanna get started. They're not exactly sure how to do it. You just go to terrykohl.com forward slash HFC, and it's an HFC starter kit, basically. That's awesome. And I always like to end these

by giving you other opportunities to talk about where people can find you and other things that you're doing that a listener should be aware of. So the book is in the world as of today, so that's extremely exciting. You can go to hfcbook.com and we have all kinds of beautiful bonuses that we are giving to people if you're in New York City. We're having a party tonight.

You're welcome to come. It's actually in New York and you can see all of that on my website. I have a community, again, on our website, where I'm walking so many people through this process of getting into recovery from this affliction because it robs so much of our joy. You can follow me on Instagram, just at Terry Cole. And you can on my show. I also have a pod since 2015 called The Terry Cole Show. Well, Terry, always such an honor to have you on the show and thank you so much for

joining us and congratulations on this extremely well-written book. I can't wait to see this and it's already number one on Amazon, so congratulations to you. Thank you so much for having me, John. I appreciate it. Wow, what an incredible conversation that was with Terry Cole. Her expertise and breaking free from high-functioning codependencies is absolutely life-changing. Whether it's learning how to set healthier boundaries or recognizing when we've taken on too much, her insights are invaluable. It was great having Terry back on the

show. If you loved her advice in episode 287, I'm sure today's conversation has resonated just as deeply. One of the key takeaways from this episode is that it's okay to say no and prioritize your own well-being. So, I want to leave you with this. What's one area of your life where you've been overextending yourself? How can you start setting boundaries today that allow you to reclaim your energy and sense of self? If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Please take a moment to leave us a five-star rating and review. It helps us continue bringing these important conversations to you. And if you know someone who could benefit from Terry's message, share this episode with them. A simple conversation can spark profound change. You can find links to everything we discussed today, including Terry's book, Too Much, in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show. Videos of this episode are also available on YouTube. And don't forget to check out our sponsors and deals at passionstruck.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Before we close, I want to remind

you that beyond hosting the podcast, I'm passionate about sharing these insights with organizations and teams through speaking engagements. If today's conversation sparks something in you, and you think my message can inspire your company, head over to johnrmiles.com slash speaking to learn more. Let's work together to create intentional change and ignite growth. In our next episode, get ready for an incredible conversation with Art Markman, a renowned professor of psychology and marketing at the University of Texas. We'll be exploring the science of decision-making, creativity, and how to cultivate a growth mindset. It's an episode you don't want to miss. People have asked me in this age of generative AI and all of these tools, is a college education

going to become less important? My argument is it actually becomes more important in a dynamic environment. And that's because what a college education, a four year degree program really does is to give people a discipline for thinking. And we often throw around this word discipline. We say, well, what are the disciplines? History or English or chemistry or biology. These are disciplines. And we don't often take that word seriously.

But a discipline is a way of giving yourself a mode for understanding the complexity of the world, turning it into something that is ultimately manageable by having a way of analyzing what's going on around you, asking questions of the world to provide you with more information, and giving you a framework in which to learn new things. And as always, the fee for the show is simple. If you found value in today's episode, share it with someone who could benefit from it. And remember, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.

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