Patriots Dynasty Podcast - 2003 Week 6: Patriots vs Giants

Episode Date: December 15, 2020

The Brown brothers invite yet another Brown on for the Patriots game vs the Giants. While the game wasn't great (watchability: 2.5/6 Lombardis), we learn some new stories about our beloved Troy Brown. Highlights:If you want to watch the game, or see the highlights, here's the Game LinkIf you want learn more about Dave Brown, he's on Twitter as @ThatDaveBrownAndy gets vindicated for his Show NotesThere's even some talk about the 2003 Red Sox ALCS!Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/patriots-dynasty-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is Christine Brown, and while I have to listen to this podcast as my motherly duty, you have the choice not to. My sons sometimes say some naughty things when they're trying to be funny, but really, they're just being stupid. You still want to listen? Go right ahead. I am not your mother. Welcome back to the Page Dynasty podcast.

We are making our way through the 2003 season, we're at week six, where the Patriots host the Giants at a pristine Gillette Stadium. And with us this week, we have a special guest, not just Greg Brown on what sounds like a tin can, but we also have our brother, I guess, maybe you can wear for Dave Brown. Well, he's a brown. Oh, I thought you meant like, you know, he has a legitimate journalist job and we have a fake journalist job. Oh, no, no, no.

He's much more professional. Yeah. Yeah. Another brown. Yes. So we have another brown on the podcast for when we do our spin off browns on browns. He will be joining us probably never. But he's joining us this week. So, Dave, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Let's start with the obvious question here, Dave. You also love Troy Brown, correct? I can't imagine why anybody wouldn't appreciate Troy Brown. Good answer. And and I have and I have a jersey for former Giants quarterback Dave Brown. So there was a real Giants quarterback Dave Brown. Yeah, I don't remember him. What?

Oh, my goodness. Well, the nineties, I want to say to these probably drafted in 92, which in the supplemental draft, which was the year the Giants took straight hand in the second round. So I guess the supplemental draft would would probably be like 91. Anyway, he was starting quarterback after Phil Pham's four bits. And he has, I think, like a 500 career record. He looks a lot like a young Vinnie Tessa Verde probably from the pictures on Google, just in a Giants uniform.

Yeah. He looks like like a quarterback. Basically a mid nineties quarter. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Although as I'm going through pictures on Google here, one of the articles that has his picture attached is the 100 worst football players of all time.

Oh, very harsh. That's impossibly harsh. You can't you can't you just kind of played in as many games as he did and hang around the league for as long as he did. I have that also. Hold my beer, buddy. I'll show you mediocrity. He was not as good as Eli Manning.

No, Eli was fine. Dave Brown was just not viable starting quarterback. Eli Manning won two Super Bowls. So that's true. You know, it's like a crazy. All right. So yeah. So if our listeners haven't figured it out, Dave Brown here is a Giants fan,

but I came across him on Twitter because he was is, I don't know, a Patriots beat reporter for the Concord Monitor up here in New Hampshire. So I guess my first question, Dave, is what the fuck? How does that happen? I'm not sure exactly where to apply that question, but. Oh, so you're asking in what's a very broad question. More stated facts and then ask that afterwards. But I think what I could like, so a few years ago, 2016,

I approached the monitor and said, look, I live in Boston. I driving distance to Foxboro. I covered the paths from 2006 to 2008. And, you know, I kind of like to pick that up again. I left journalism, went to law school, became a lawyer and said, hey, you know, spare time, I could write a bit about Patriots. And that's what I chose to do. All right.

So how did you become a Patriots writer then? Like, or like around here and how did you become a Giants fan? I grew up in Rhode Island where cause I am 41. And there's a good number of Giants fans my age from Southern Illinois, for sure. Yeah. There was a time when it was much easier. The games would get blacked out here sometime. And so sometimes you just get the Giants games.

And that's generous. And, you know, so I grew up in Rhode Island and that's how I became a Giants fan. My dad was from, he grew up on the border of Rhode Island and Connecticut. And much closer in his case, much easier to get the Giants game. So, and they, and actually when my dad was a kid, the Patriots didn't exist yet. You know, it wasn't until 1960. So, yeah, so he became a Giants fan before he was 12 years old. And, you know, so that's how that kind of got passed down to me.

And then I became a journalist. I went to URI for journalism. I went and got a master's degree from Northwestern. And then I got a full-time job down in North Carolina, which I started, I actually, I think, interviewed right before this game and then got hired and moved down there at the end of the month. So right before Halloween, I think this game was played like October 5th. And then by the end of October, I was living in North Carolina

and covered my first pro football game for newspaper down there in December of that year. So I then wound up back up in New Bedford at the Standard Times, covering the Patriots from 2006 to 2008. And, yeah. So how long have you been doing the content now? Well, I can tell you. So I did that from 2016, kind of everything's kind of on pause right now because there's just been a lot going on this year.

But, yeah. So I went to kind of a good sped up. You didn't lose your job when the Giants beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl. And they were like, it's not the job of a beat writer. It is not the job of a beat writer to bring home a championship. That is, we've got nothing to do with that. We've certainly not helped in the cause, you know? It's a fucking enemy in the room.

Right. A Giants fan in the midst. I actually picked the Patriots. I picked the Patriots in Super Bowl 42. I was wrong. A lot of people were. And it was a very interesting and bizarre experience watching my favorite team win the Super Bowl against people I know. Right. Oh, yeah.

When you watch sports and television, you don't, you tend not to think of the players as individuals. And that changes when you're in the locker room every day. And it was in my second year. And, you know, having had conversations with these people and knowing them, you know, not, you know, not like best friends or anything. But I'm saying knowing them. You get a sense of where they're coming from and to know that they're feeling the pain of losing this. And that hits you a different way than when you watch on TV. So, so yeah, that was a really interesting experience.

So you have met Troy Brown and can confirm with experience that he is the absolute man. Well, you know, thanks for coming on Dave. What, when I met Troy Brown, he had never shaved before. What? Shaved. Shaved. He never shaved the facial hair. No way.

He had like a goatee. I thought it's fascinating because he had like a goatee, like, like a regularly formed goatee, as if, as if he had shaved around it. But he never had shaved his face before in life. And I heard that on the radio and I thought that's right. I know, right. And I thought that's crazy. And I had a conversation with him about it. And at first I thought he was going to be very upset, but he wasn't.

He was okay. But he didn't want to talk about. He did not want to talk about it. Like he was like, why is this a big deal? And I was like, I just heard this. I heard this thing and it was on the radio and I gather people are probably giving you our time about it. But I'm just curious because it sounds preposterous to me. I need to understand.

And yeah, you walked me through it. He had never shaved before. And then I saw him on TV a year or two ago and I was like, he had no goatee. So at some point between 2006 and 2020, Troy Brown shaved his facial hair for the first time. Yeah. I took the blunge. That's ridiculous. I found this nice camera shot of him from the first Super Bowl in 2001.

It's got a little mustache and just a little tiny goatee. It looks neatly trimmed. Right. But it stays like that. That's just how it is. It stays like that until that undetermined point where Troy Brown began shaving his face. Yeah, his Patriots coach picture. He's got no facial hair at all.

Yeah. All right. Fine, Dave. You can stay as long as you have more hilarious Troy Brown inside like that. Yeah. I don't know if you've noticed, but we're a very pro Troy Brown podcast here. Again, that makes sense. You know, he was drafted in a round of the draft that no longer exists in the eighth round.

And it turned out to be, you know, one of those like a Julian Edelman type guy who could just do anything you needed when you needed it and do it well. He was the original Julian Edelman in that mold. All right. Let's get into this game. Let's do it. Yeah. Dave, did you want to. Kind of talk a bit about the, how you view the Giants at this point back in 2003.

Maybe, maybe we should start more in a Lombardi rating actually. Oh, that's right. Okay. Yeah. So before we, before we do that, I'm getting ahead of myself. This game ended 17 to six Patriots. I think it, it both felt worse than that and also closer than that, I thought. Yeah.

And Dave, what we do is we give, because we watch every one of these games, but we don't expect our listeners too. So we give a watchability score because we're asshole Patriots fans. We do it out of six Lombardies. With a half point being an AFC championship and a quarter point being an AFC East championship. Right. Um, for this game, I would probably give it maybe a two. Generous. I'll give it one and a half championship.

It wasn't as bad as that Titans game, but it was, it was like that, but we actually won it. It was sloppy. It was the sloppiest game I've seen ever since we started doing this. Yeah. Maybe ever. Yeah. It was, it was rainy. The field was a mess.

It was a pigsty. So many turnovers. So many penalties. So many drop passes. So many, just everything. Miss field goals or what? One, two, three, at least three miss field goals. Miss field goals all in first half.

Yeah. And then they just stopped going for field goals because fuck it. It wasn't even that windy out. No, but, uh, yeah. So I would give it a one and a half. What about you, Steve? Like I said, an AFC championship and that's maybe being generous. It's just a, just a half a point.

One of the only because he won. Greg, did you watch this one? No, I did not. I don't blame you from the bits I saw. I mean, Hey, it's a crazy weather game. You guys don't like crazy weather games. I do. But this wasn't a goal.

It's sloppy. Yeah. Sometimes it can be good, but this was like Brady was one for nine with four drops in the first half. It's seven yards passing in the first half. Yeah. It was just bad. That's crazy.

You don't see that every day. That makes it kind of watchable. I don't like the games where he's like, you know, 15 of 25 for one 90. Like that stuff's boring to me. I like when some weird stuff happens. Well, then rewatch this game, Greg, come back to us and be like, wow, that was a great game to watch. I'm glad I said that.

Raven's game was an excellent watch. Yeah. That game was way better than this game. Yeah. This game was not that game. Because there was no like execution. This game was the problem. Not as sloppy in like the weather and the field,

but like just the penalties and the drops and just bad football. Yeah. What about you, Dave? How did you view this game as a Giants fan? Matt Chatham scored a touchdown in this game. You guys have no appreciation for how great this was. Oh, we'll get to that because that's why it got a two from me because a friend of the pod, Matt Chatham.

I'm not done. I'm just getting warmed up. All right, let's go. So you've got that. You got the defensive touchdown. The Giants turned the ball over twice in their first three offensive snaps and I'm sitting there like, yep, that's what watching John. The Giants was like every week at this stage of the game with Kiki Barber

before Tom Coughlin came in and really fix Kiki Barber. Okay. Like he, this is like his fourth or fifth fumble of the year. And what is this? The fourth or fifth game of the year for the Giants. The fifth game. That's right. Like every week.

He changed his style. Yeah. That's right. And, and, and, you know, Coughlin came in, he fixed that. But at this point in the game, that's what it was like. And watching like one of the things I thought about coming into this game was 2003 is the year that Bella Chick says they figured out that Tom Brady was not just a good quarterback that he was really one of the best in the game.

It was the year when they start to figure out that he's special. And I was like, man, I really want to see what's going on with like Brady before he wins the second Super Bowl, right? Because at that point in the game, no one expected 2001. He leads the league in touchdown in 2002. What's going on now? And in the first half, he was awful. It was just terrible.

And I was like, I've never seen Brady play like this. It was bad. Never have I seen this at bad. And they, and they worked it out. They got better in the second half, but it was a wet gross. He was playing with the glove. Yeah, both on both hands. There's been a lot of glove gate in all these years.

All 2002 was like every time he had a bad game, the announcers would bring up the gloves immediately because nobody ever plays with gloves anymore. Yada, yada, yada. Jeremy Shockey was in this game. Jeremy Shockey was grunk before grunk. Like, like it was sort of like a more like they rebooted the Jeremy Shockey character. And that's Rob Gronkowski. Yeah, they made him a lot better.

Yeah, more dynamic receiver. You know, like, you don't think he's more of a Travis Kelsey? He felt to me like a Travis Kelsey like that. I mean, when Gronk, I mean, I'm seeing the exact same thing. The stuff about remember after Super Bowl 46, when Gronk was dancing at that party and people were like, oh, look at this, right? The guy just lost the game. He's not dancing.

Yeah. Jeremy Shockey, that was a Jeremy Shockey story, practically. Okay. You said it was Jeremy Shockey. Right now it's been like, remember after Super Bowl, Jeremy Shockey was dancing. I'd be like, oh, yeah, of course. You know what I mean? Like, like guys who like to have the stories about them, you know,

it's like prodigious drinkers who like girls and tight ends who can block and catch passes. Very similar. So Jeremy Shockey's out there. And for me, you know, I know, like, these are the two football teams that I've paid the most attention to in my life. And just so much going on that I thought was fascinating. But if you really want to understand how the 2003 Patriots were so great. I mean, this game kind of, they just kind of suffocated the Giants. They loved the Giants make as many mistakes as they could.

I was shocked at how many penalties the Patriots committed, but especially the first half is kind of a disaster. But I don't know, there was a lot for me to like in this game. Now, this was not like the 2018 AFC championship in Kansas City. It wasn't that. No, but, you know, it was a pretty good like, I would give it like a three and a half out of five. Okay. Which on the, which on the giant scale is a two and a half out of four. Fair enough.

All right. I like that he translated. I agree. I agree with Dave. You didn't watch it. Sure I did. I watched the highlights. There was prime time highlights of this.

I couldn't find any. There sure was. Oh, all right. Wow. Send me the links I can put on the website. But yeah, I also, I had a bone to pick with these referees because on top of like how sloppy the game was, like they were just, it was the wrong game to call it tiki tack penalties. And that's what they were doing the entire game.

So even on like the one few times that there was like an actual play that was made. There was like a Troy Brown, like long completion right down the middle, like towards the end of the game where like they converted a third and 18. And there was like this like tiki tack holding call on it. And there was a couple others like that too. Like every kick return that made it outside the 20 got called back. And every time they, even the, even the announcers who I enjoyed in this game. They were okay.

I liked, I liked Darrell Johnson moose. Sorry to interrupt you, Andy, but I don't know if you're hearing me. I just had an epiphany there. What? I, you know, the Chris Bermanism Amani well-dressed tumor. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, how would a tumor be well-dressed?

Oh my God. And I just figured out it's like Amani, like the suit manufacturer. God 33. And I have been hearing that like Chris Bermanism forever. And I'd never, ever fucking got it until now. And it's so obvious. Did you know bad moon rising is actually a song? Yeah, I knew that.

Okay. How did I know? I was like, like, was a tumor. Why would you admit out loud on a recording that you don't understand Chris Berman references? You obviously have not listened to this podcast. That is tame for this thing. Oh yeah.

Also, none of us have any shame. No, no, I have. How do you, how does one become shameless in a podcast about early dynasty Patriots football games? Watch enough of them. Yeah. It's more of a sense of entitlement. More than anything.

We can get away with anything. All right. I get that. Making a lot of sense. But yeah, let's talk about Moose Johnson because I think having former fullbacks commentate games is a great idea because you got so much like fullback oriented, like commentary and insight. That was amazing.

I felt the two regular guys. And they get to leave it. You know who was awesome in this game? Goose. I forgot about goose of the sideline. Sarah Goose. Yeah. Tony Sarah Goose.

He was so fucking good. He wasn't. He was so bad. He was good. No, he was awesome. He, what are you stating? The end zone actually come out a second and a half and everyone's like been talking about how they need to get him a coat.

And he's like, yeah, I had a coat. Then the, the fans here started shitting on me. So I put the coat away. And he's following him soft. Oh my God. And then there's this guy needs. I hope he, I hope he said a thank you letter to David Chase who created the Sopranos because this is around the time when the

Sopranos was really popular. And so kind of like, uh, like a fat Italian guy on the sidelines, like really hamming it up. Like he looks like he should be. He was even in an episode with the Sopranos at some point because it's like he's stealing this idea in our heads of like some, like a New Jersey tough guy. And on that one point in this, well,

one point that he gets into an argument with moose about whether coaches should tell the teams to, um, you know, try to win three out of every four games. Yeah. And I was on. And he's like, you could never, he's like, you should never acknowledge that losing is possible. And, and moose was carefully walking him through.

Where did you all come out on this great debate? Team goose, 100%. You know, Bill Belichick doesn't fucking plan to lose like, well, guys, well, we break the quarter, the season in a quarter is we'll go to three and one each quarter and then we'll end up 12 and four. It'll be great. Yeah. Cause the first question is, all right, coach,

who are we going to lose to this quarter? Exactly. Which game you expected? Can you explain, can you explain what the argument was? So moose was saying, you're talking about the giants and Jim fossil was a coach at the time and how they broke the season in the quarters. They said, if we can just go three and one each quarter, you know,

we'll, we'll do our jobs. So they're, they're breaking the game, the, the season into four game chunks and say, okay, well, who are we going to lose to and who are we going to beat? And I don't know if it was that. It was just like, it was more of just like, yeah, if, if we're going to, if we can go three and one each quarter, like we're, we're doing our jobs and if we do our jobs,

we'll make the playoffs. And goose was like, why the fucking kind of saying, why not beat everybody? Yeah. Why not plan on going four and oh each quarter? And moose is saying, now both of these guys have won Super Bowl. Right.

Moose did it with the, with the Cowboys and moose was saying, look, when I was with the Cowboys, we used to talk about things like this, like when all of your home games and try to split on the road and you're 12 and four or, you know, win three out of every four, win every quarter of the season. I happen to think that neither of these approaches, I don't think either of these people are crazy,

but I think the approach and I think what, what we've seen be successful in Foxboro is. We're going to want to know this. We're going to focus on winning this game. We're going to do everything we can. And then when the game is over, we're not going to worry about whether we won or lost it. We're going to focus on the next one.

One or no next week. Yeah. We're going to focus on that. But yeah, it's a hundred percent right. Yeah. And that's, I think that's the, so actually I thought that was kind of one of the differences between a coach like Bill Belichick and a coach like Jim Fossil.

Before we get into Jim Fossil bashing, I've got one more note on the goose here. All right. Give me that goose note. Actually, you know what? I'm going to say it for my best. Okay. Yeah. So, so Dave, how did you feel about Jim Fossil as a head coach?

Well, first of all, whoever puts together your show notes, these are really great. There's not much information here. Wow. Someone actually read them. Yeah. It really, like, like there's stuff in here, like the whole Giants draft from 2003.

And I'm like, oh my God, this draft was exceptional. They got three pearl bowlers in this draft. But, but okay, let me focus on. You're not allowed to say one of their names. Well, he was, he was our Matthew Slater. Yeah. He had two close block kicks in this game. Yeah.

So he was a special teams pro bowler. David Tyrone, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cause I saw that too. And I was like, he made the pro bowl.

So I didn't realize he made a special team. Yeah. He had almost two block. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, but okay. So the show notes are great.

I will say this. I have one bonus thing. The show notes say that Jim fossil was. A mediocre NFL head coach. As most Giants coaches are. Now. Look. Okay.

Yeah. Remember we're talking about. Well, he's just. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to decide. If Jim fossil was mediocre.

I mean he coached for, I think seven or eight years. But the Giants was a good run. He went to a Super Bowl. He had three winning, what? But three winning seasons. Uh, which isn't great. That's pretty mediocre. His record's slightly above 500.

But coming into like. What you have to understand about the Giants is that like. Coming into this season. You could look at fossil and ballot check. And genuinely ask the question. If you had to hire a coach right now, who would you hire? And after the year 2000. Most people I think were said fossil.

Because he was just coming off a run to the Super Bowl where they lost to Raven. He had a better record than Bill and Bill has come off like a five and 11 season. Uh, and then after 2001. Bill wins. The championship in 2002. The Giants make the playoffs.

And the Patriots don't. So it's heading into this season. So I don't, I guess what I'm saying is my idea of a mediocre coach in the NFL is a little worse than possible. He accomplished a few things. That's fair. But his whole like. His whole career falls apart in this season.

Yeah. He's never the same for him after this. And this season is sort of like. This game is sort of like a microcosm of that season where the Giants played. The Giants played one horrible half. In almost every game that year. And there's season was like. They get, they get to four and four.

When they beat the Jets and we gave. So the Giants lose this game, but then we didn't choose the next three. And then they lose the entire last half of the season. This is their last eight games. Goodbye. Carrie Collins. Goodbye. Hello.

Tom Coughlin. And hello. You live in it. And. But, but so back in 2000. When the Super Bowl, right? Is that, is that a fossil or is that Sean Baton and John Fox? Cause those are his two coordinators.

Right. Yeah. And good coordinators, right? Good coordinator. A lot of those guys. Yeah. But it takes look. I mean,

no part of ourselves never won a Super Bowl without Bill Belichick. Correct. There's, it takes look. There is no one or two people that make a championship happen. It's really is 53 people. And. You know.

To be the head coach and to put that team in that position. And by the way, he hired those coordinators. I can't, I can't discredit Jim fossil. I can't discredit Jim fossil. I can't discredit Jim fossil. I can't discredit Jim fossil. However. You know, did he do a good, now one thing that Bill Belichick has

done. Is that whenever there's turnover. For 20 years, he has managed it pretty well. Jim fossil did not replace those guys last. Jim fossil did not do a great job of replacing them. And. You know, I think the Giants kind of. And not really being able to.

You know, avoid the mistakes that they were making in this game. Uh, you know, and then just became time for a reboot. Because. If you're, if you're a star running back. Who. It was pretty good. If he can't hold on to the football, if he's reading it every single week, you're not going to be successful.

Yeah, that's a perfect segue into like the microcosm of that is. They gave a big speech, I guess, and I'll talk about, you know, increasing game toughness and Tiki Barber and the coach. Oh, I have that. I gave a whole speech on it. And the announcers are like, this is like top of their list because it's 12 minutes into the, you know, they're into the game at 1231. Yeah.

I'm going to play right now, Andy. Yeah. Here's the, the actual clip. I thought this is hilarious. With an interception, but Tiki Barber, when he talked about the team underachieving, one of the things that he felt they lacked was game toughness. And I asked him about that and he said, the definition of that is,

is being able to take advantage of opportunities during the game and capitalizing on mistakes. And the Giants did that. The defense comes out. They overcome the adversity of that opening drive. Now it's the offense's turn and we'll see if they've increased that game toughness that he wanted to see him have. Tiki lost the football.

Matt Chatham takes it in for a touchdown. So, I mean, Matt Chatham. Yeah. Absolutely perfect timing by the commentators to bring that up right then. Yeah. Segway was just beautiful. Beautiful.

Like you couldn't have scripted that any better. Yeah. It's almost like he knew Tiki Barber was about to fumble for a script score. Well, let's see what the offense can do. They fumbled in. Talk about being mentally, playing mentally tough and let's, yeah.

The offense needs to step up and be mentally tough here and hope they don't provide even more context. They threw an interception on the first play from scrimmage. Right. Yeah. Patriots turned into a missed fucking field goal. Right. So they got the ball back and go, no harm, no foul.

And then fumble it in. Chatham's like, you know, I was doing myself. That was, those, the two offenses were so in that on their first three series. And, um, and the Giants just, that's what was so dispiriting about the Giants around this time was like, you know, the ability is there. You, you watch this game, you watch these horrible conditions.

They moved up and down the field. No problem. And then what happened? You're the kicker got hurt a week before. So they've got some guy, they signed off the street missing everything on grass. These aren't easy kicks, but, but you know, they're stalling and they're just not getting the ball in the end zone.

Chiqui barber falls down in that awful grass that they ripped out three years later. Um, There's a, uh, Four drives within our 35 yard line and got zero points out of it. Yeah. There you go. Well, I mean, to your point, I think this is the first half.

Um, they, they showed a stat about ball control. The Giants had 40 plays for 190 yards in about 20 minutes of defense of possession. Pages had 20 pages had 20 plays for 30 yards and under nine minutes. And we're leading seven to three. Yeah. And the page is winning seven, three going into that.

You'll go the boot. Yeah. Cause the Giants miss too. Yeah. Also keep in mind. You deserve to give. You deserve to give. After this season.

That yeah. Of course. He went from the third, the third ranked defense in terms of points in 2002. To 29th. In 2003. And their offense was great. There was 30th in the league.

They lose eight straight to finish the season. And this is basically the same roster that you went to Superbowl with. So it's hard to blame the players there. Because clearly they have the talent. So when, when you see numbers like that, you kind of have to be like, all right, this is, this is a coach, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Whatever was going on. It wasn't working anymore. And you have to. If you look back. The Giants 2002 season. The end of it was horrible.

They had a. Let's see. They were up 28, 14. On the 49ers at halftime. And I think it was up to 38 to. Sorry, I'm looking at this. 30 to 14. In the playoffs.

With four minutes and 27 seconds left. In the third quarter. Okay. 38 to 14 is only one point less. The 28, three. That's a good play at the 24 point deficit with four and a half minutes left. The third quarter. At San Francisco.

And I mean, it was, I remember thinking every single time being like, all they have to do to win this game is get this first down or make this stop. And it would just never happen. I had the same feeling in Indianapolis in 2006. Well, it's unpacked this, Mr. Brown. Do you ever wish you were a Patriots fan and not a Giants fan?

No, actually one of the things, one of the things that's been great is that I can observe the Patriots. I think that they're sort of like, they run like a model organization that what the rest of the league should be doing. I can go and be passionate and throw things and, you know, be emotionally invested in the Giants.

And then I can watch the Patriots as sort of like a clinical exercise and be like, everything they do is fascinating. But you never like, I wish you guys did this, you know, like, Oh, of course. There are plenty of things that I wish. And that's part of it is that understanding. Like when the Giants traded Odell Beckham,

I felt good about that. I felt like this is a situation where I felt like Belichick would have done it actually much sooner. Because he did it with Channel of Gentlemen. Right? I'm going to trade them, the Giants we signed Odell Beckham, which was a little silly. Yeah.

They should have traded them and gotten something in return before they, they want to boost you some money, some dead money on that. But it's the kind of thing where when the Giants do something smart, I recognize it. And I say, that's something like, that's something that the Patriots would do. And when they do something that's just like,

when they get stuck in the draft and the guy they want, Brandon Scherf goes to Washington, they like panic and take Eric Flowers. And he was a complete disaster. The Patriots don't do that. They don't just be like, okay, what do we need? And who's the best on the board? What the Giants need to do in that situation is what the

Patriots would do. The guy I want isn't here. D3 trade down. Yep. Trade down. You hear that? And Jerry Reese, who was the, was the general manager before gentlemen,

never once in the time he was there, never once they trade down. Oh my God. In the draft. You all don't know, like you all don't know how great you have. Well, you're watching a line span. We have an idea of how bad.

No, you know what it is. But we don't know. No, you know what it is. Is, is, is we get to doing this podcast, we get to, it's like a clinical exercise when we talk to fans of other teams. Yeah. So I hope that therapy session.

I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing that strikes me is, I mean, I think that, I think the Giants, Seattle, Pittsburgh, are the only teams other than the Patriots who have won. And tell me if I'm wrong on this.

I believe those are the only, oh, because no Seattle didn't win another one. It was just Pittsburgh's Pittsburgh, the Giants, and the Patriots are the only three teams that have won. Two championships or more than the last 20 years. So that's not right. That sounds right at the top of my head.

Ravens. So one of the 2000, right? Yes. No, well, right. Cause I'm starting the year after, but even if you want ingredients right around you, like, go ahead. Yeah.

And, point stands. And, and I'm starting with 2001, but I didn't know that Patton was next giant. How did I not know that? Yes.

Did you like, this game was 17 years ago. Was he like any good when they first had him? And like, was it like a West Welker Miami Dolphins where everybody knew he was good and they let him go anyways? No, I wasn't like that.

He was good. It was fun. There you go. Um, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Um, I don't know why I do like that. But, よう 보lements these games like Paton's like legit.

Yeah. Beyond branch is like early Dian branch. And I guess it's probably late stage David Patton are both pretty solid. Um, yes, I don't disagree. The,

the point I'm trying to make you though is that you have, um, the giants will win. Giants of Pittsburgh. But, but in between Super Bowl appearances, they have a four and 12 complete and total meltdown disaster. So they went to the Super Bowl in 2000 and then seven years later,

they're back, but the road in between is much different than what you had with the Patriots between their win in 2004 and then the next one in 2014. Right. They never, where you're always feeling like you have a chance to win the Super Bowl. No one else feels that way. Right.

No one else. No, Lions fans do up until about week two. Yeah. Oh yeah. From what we've learned. After the draft. Yeah.

Yeah. Our, yeah, our, uh, opinion of that last longer through a season than the most fans, I think. But the flip side is,

it's even more devastating as we saw the entire New England region melt down when the Patriots got that four game losing streak recently of the week. This is the end. Everything's going to be terrible. Yeah. We have no idea how to handle adversity. Relax.

Yeah. No idea. And suddenly, now, now suddenly you guys are having a kind of fun that you don't normally experience where the Patriots went out and surprised you by beating the Raven. Oh,

I was a believer. I was not surprised. Yeah. Okay. Maybe you were, but a lot of people were, a lot of people were surprised. I agree.

And rightfully surprised. Yeah. And, and the Ravens came in and they're supposed to win that game at six and two. It was a weird feeling. You know, I think on that, yeah,

but isn't it, I mean, there's some, there's a little bit of fun to it when it's like, when the team proves to you that's going to be competitive, when the team comes out and says, when the team comes out and shows you, you might,

you know, you might not have been a board with where they're going. You might have been worried about where they're going. But now you have a little bit of reason to say, hey, this team could be competitive this year. Yeah. What's the outcome?

Yeah. I've talked about that too, where the games where Brady hasn't been starting quarterback recently, like when you had his four game suspension and then this year, I felt differently going into games that I haven't felt in a while because. As long as Brady was there. Going into a pager's game, the expectation was that the page is going to win.

And then if they didn't play up to that expectation, you got a little frustrated because even if they did win, it wasn't the win that you expect them to have. But now you don't have, you're free from that expectation almost. So you can go and be like, I have no idea what's going to happen if you start Garoppolo week one because I don't know,

I've never seen him play. This could go anyway. And then they win and you're like, oh, this is a great feeling. I'm surprised by it. So it's, I think that is something that, I mean,

not to sound like a huge dick, but that's something that Patriots fans haven't been able to experience in a long time for better or worse. No, it's true. It's 100% true. Yeah. I mean, the losing sucks though. You can do it out that.

We have, we have a podcast where we're at the beginning of a 21 game win streak. So, wins ahead of us. Let's get back to this. Yeah. Let's do it. I wanted to talk about the fact this was on Fox.

Cause you don't see a lot of those games, only usually when they play the NFC East, it feels like it's a, it's always like a Giants or Cowboys games when the Fox guys are here. And I forgot how much a Fox broadcast feels like a commercial for whatever's coming up next. In this case, it was the ALCS game. Yeah. They would not leave that.

Any fucking chance they got to like, Oh, by the way, guess what's coming up. It's like, yeah, we know you told us 30 seconds ago from there. Yeah. For a, for a game that got rained out. Did it? Yeah. The game that night.

So, so I host a, I co-host a podcast called entitled town. Yes. With, with my co-host, iron, Mike Irons, who you may know from Twitter is at this place or wait, at ironhead 334. This place, Boston and his, his handle. Yeah.

Um, and he was at this game. He was at the Patriots game. Shut. So, actually, Yeah. I completely forgot. But yes, I was,

I was sitting in the rain. I went with one of our parents and I got told to sit down because I wouldn't sit down in the game in the stands. The guys behind me told me to sit the fuck down. The guys behind me. Yeah. In 2003, I would have been 18, 19, maybe 20. Yeah.

You should totally get crammed up as cram hole. Yeah. And I think it was like me and mom. So I was about to tell some, some randos behind me to stick up the cram hole with mom sitting with me, but. I, Ironhead was telling me that he had also had tickets to be the

ALCS game. Oh. Hiked up to Boston, aided at McDonald's in denim and then raced over to Fenway. Got there just in time for them to pull off the tarp and say, sorry guys, not tonight. So he couldn't, and he couldn't go the next day with being a Monday.

He could not go. Right. That sucks. It wouldn't really matter because the Red Sox would not win that series. I'm going to talk about that. Yeah. So three baby.

But this, they were talking about the game before I think it was game three. There was the bullpen altercation, which I don't know if you guys remember it. I remember it like when I jogged my own memory, but there was a thing was after the game, there was a fight between a Fenway during the game. Was it?

I don't remember. It was always a ground screw member because the bullpens, the bullpens emptied. Something started. I don't remember how the fight started. It was Jeff Nelson. Nobody seems to know. Yeah.

One of the clubhouse workers, something started in there and then the bullpens emptied and somehow Pedro and Don Zimmer square off and Pedro like grabs Zimmer. Zimmer. Whatever. He's like a hundred years old. Yeah.

Like a hundred years old at this point. He goes and charges Pedro charged. Grab him by the head and throws him on the ground. Like it looks up like what me, but that was so good. Man, it was a scene. That was a wild game. And I remember where I was during. I didn't even remember this, this particular football game,

but that baseball game, I remember where I was when I watched it because it was completely insane. Yeah. But like apparently two Yankee relievers beat up a ground crew member who according to this New York Times article, the ground crew member Paul Williams went to Beth Israel Deacon, his hospital at about 8 45 p.m.

Saturday and was released early Sunday morning. He left wearing a neck brace. The Associated Press said Jesus fuck Yankees, man, but the thoughts. Here you go. The Red Sox accused Yankees relief pitcher Jeff Nelson and right fielder Kareem Garcia of attacking Williams. Kareem Garcia was a dog.

I remember him being a bit of a dick. This is the height of the Yankees. Red Sox rivalry. Yeah. This was the peak of it. Yeah. And Fox was all about promoting it. Yeah.

Speaking of rightfully so. Actually, oh, I have a I have a goose clip because he was talking about walking around Boston after after that. Oh, yeah. This is going to be mine. This is going to be mine. Yeah. After checking once again with Tony.

You know, I was a little hesitant about coming to the stadium today. I was walking in the streets of Boston last night and I saw about 25 fights. I was really impressed by the way the fans have really handled themselves. So I asked the police officer who was, you know, concerned about anybody jumping out of the stand,

sort of like we saw with the Red Sox game. He says, if anybody gets out of hand here, but not only throw him out of the stadium, but we take their season ticket away and resell it. So I was wondering, I looked up in the services. All these people are pretty calm because they don't want to get hit in the pocket. It's pretty neat that he told me that.

25 fights last night. Yeah. I saw a taxi driver get beat up. I wanted to jump in, but I was. I want to jump in, but I was full. That was my point. I was full. I didn't understand that.

I didn't understand what he said. Taxi driver get beat up. I wanted to jump in, but I was full. Yeah. Does that mean like he was too busy? Like he was like he was. Just hands were full. He just eaten dinner.

He just came out. He just came out of that. Yeah. That Italian joint and he was, he was stuffed to the gills. Oh, oh my God. That was going to be my bestie. He created a fucking ruin. It's so good.

No. This was insane. Cause I was like, I'm watching the show. And I'm like, did Tony Saragoza just say that like, he wanted to beat up a taxi driver? Cause he was a taxi driver. Like he was like, he was like, Hey, those people over there are kicking some strangers ass.

And I wanted it, but I'm full. That's weird. That's exactly. But I ate too much calamari. Fuck it. This is Ray Lewis level nonsense. That's all I'm saying. Oh yeah.

Oh, it's, it's completely garbage. 20. He saw 25 fights walking around Boston that night. I don't think he did. Yeah. You pissed off. By the way, I did want to see a cab driver stab a guy in 10 more square

after a Red Sox game. But that's the whole other thing. Just, it was crazy. And it was after a playoff game, but, but I don't think it was related to baseball. Was it a Yankee playoff game? No, it was, I think it was 07 or 08. They didn't play the Yankees.

It was, it was, they weren't playing Yankees either of those series. It was just really busy in Kenmore square. And the cab driver gave us a cab and somebody started yelling at him about it. And then threw out some choice racial episodes. And the guy like who was the guy was Middle Eastern. He grabbed a device like a,

like a, just like an ice pick, almost type thing. And the other guy called him like some like anti-muggle type slurs. And the guy grabs this thing and like stabs the guy with it and then kicked us out of the cab. And I'm like, what did we do?

Just get me a ride. I don't care these stabs on one. I just want to, I just got to get home. And, and I went for a long walk after that. That's about all I can say. So maybe it was 25 fights.

Yeah. I would rather get a cab ride home. And that dude would be like, Hey, you know, how did that, how do you feel now? Yeah. You feel better. God damn. Well, I'd say this,

this game probably felt a lot like the goose walking around spossing because it felt like a bit of showing the injuries. I really appreciated the giants were wearing white in this game. Because the field was such a fucking sloppy mess. That like everybody got covered in brown. And then you could see the fresh dudes come in and then they're it's Dean White and even commentators are calling them out. Yeah.

There was some a wide receiver for the giants at the end of the game when there's down two scores and he took a run. They showed the replay. He took a run at Rodney Harrison. So Harrison just like threw him on the ground and the guy tried to kick him in the face and then ever like after that happened, Rodney was targeting him the entire game. It was the only guy only wide receiver who was like completely

like clean Jersey. So like to the point where the commentator is like, why, why isn't he dirty? Like he's been playing. I guess he just hasn't done much. Rodney balled out in this game. Two interceptions. Yes.

And he had like nine or 10 tackles too, I think. Yeah. He was all, oh, I mean, let's be real. A fucking super sloppy rain mud game. That's sort of like Rodney Harrison thrives. Oh yeah. Yeah. This is like a slugfest like that is definitely his, his M.

Oh, Greg. What do you think? I think Tyrone pool had a good game person. Also Roman Pfeiffer 19 tackles. I don't pool had a strip on that fumble. Andy had a pick. Yep. Bro.

Chris Berman said he Tyrone pool. He always plays well in the rain. Oh, that's not bad. Yeah. There was a sequence where they kept dumping it off a Tiki just like short and Pfeiffer was racking him. All right. It was like Tiki,

you got to talk to Kerry Collins and be like, stop. Oh my God. Yeah. I wrote it down. I'm like, he's, Kerry Collins is going to get Tiki sent to the hospital with these pads over the middle because they're just like, he's leaving them into linebackers.

And there were times when there were issues between like, it was a few between barber and stray hand over their respective contracts for a while. Yeah. There were a handful of things going on between those two, like over the years. And I also remember that like, I think Tiki left before 2007.

And I don't think anybody liked him after. I'm sitting there. Like it took a while. Like there were a lot of damaged relationships after Tiki Barber left. And I'm sitting there watching this game and I'm like, I don't think Kerry Collins likes him. I don't think so either.

Try and get him killed. Tiki Barber had the dirtiest jersey of everybody. Oh my God. Yeah. And that said, though, it's hard to make good throws when you're under constant pressure. And the defensive front that the Patriots had, it's just insane.

And watching Richard Seymour in this game, he just completely changes the dynamic on every play. And having said that, like this defense was absolutely decimated with injuries too. Like you're starting Matt Chatham, right? Because guys like Willie McGinnis aren't there, who was an absolute monster at this point. Like this is still, I think, peak Willie McGinnis era.

Bruce G went down for a while. Ty Law went out halfway through the game because he's been playing on a bad ankle for three, four weeks now. And like the offense was garbage because they have no defense. Because the field was so fucking sloppy and Ty had that ankle injury. So they were like, nah. And they put in Antoine Harris prior to a rally in North

Carolina. Yeah. He had a couple of great plays. He had one where he like bent Shaki in half or Shaki didn't see him. I don't like right above the hip. And then just small the back. And then that last interception to see Eugene Wilson,

it went right through right through Antoine Harris's. I watched that and I was like, that that interception is not Kerry Collins fault. Then they showed the replay and I was like, oh, that was a Patriots player who loves the catch. That's definitely Kerry Collins. Who the fuck is he throwing it to? Yeah, Dave, how do you feel about Kerry Collins?

Cause I thought he played. Okay. But when he misses a throw, he fucking misses a throw. He, if it's by the sidelines. Yeah, it's like, it's six rows deep. If he misses it's like, Jesus Christ. It's not even. Here's what I'll say.

Here's what I'll say about Kerry Collins is that you have to understand after Phil Sims, we went through this like, like Dave Brown, when I mentioned, he was supposed to be the guy that didn't work out. Actually it was like Kent Graham. There's Danny Cannell, like these are all things you guys may have heard, but they're not guys that you want as your, as your quarterback.

And it was a long kind of time in the wilderness and all of a sudden Kerry Collins, who had been, I believe the first overall pick, one of those like 95 or whatever the year that the, the year that the Panthers came into the league, they, they picked Kerry Collins first. So highly, highly targeted prospect. He's supposed to kind of be a big deal.

He had developed a bit of a drinking problem while in Carolina, I think they'll go out and he winds up in kind of like a backup role with the saints, gets his act together and the giants kind of pick them up cheap. And all of a sudden, here's a guide. I think they said it in the, I think they said it in the broadcast at the time,

there were only three giants quarterbacks who had thrown for 15,000 yards and one of them is Kerry Collins. Yeah. And like it was a very stable, sturdy guy, got the team to a Super Bowl and I'll tell you what, that 2000 season was so much fun. And it wasn't the Super Bowl, but in the NFC championship,

I think they won 42 to nothing or 41 to nothing. And it was just like over before halftime and Collins was amazing. Look, he threw for 300 something yards in this game, but also forward reception. Yeah. There's also that like early drive where he's throwing on the run on third and goal and Tiki Barber absolutely blows right by the jam and it's alone in the end zone.

And all he's going to do is they can just air it out, loft it out. Doesn't matter really where he throws it, except where he threw it behind and just without the play when Barbara fell. Yeah. But Barbara fell because he was trying to get back to the ball because he threw it like five yards behind him.

Yeah. That was okay. Rough play. I didn't pay attention then to the replay because I saw Barbara fell and I just thought it was not Barbara. Oh, Barbara was wide the fuck open. He was throwing that to the moon. Okay.

He still would have been standing underneath it. Okay. Interesting. So obviously then, what Kerry Collins was in like, you know, going through all of these guys who just clearly were not the guy. And remember,

quarterbacks weren't, they were important back then, but it wasn't a passing league. So there were other things you could do and you could have a game manager, but Kerry Collins was something more than a game manager. He could make plays and we just hadn't had a guy like that since Phil Thames.

And so it at the very least felt like, and this I think is the, this is the criteria for me. There's your team, I'm a quarterback that where you, where he doesn't need to be Patrick Holmes, he doesn't need to be Tom Brady, but he's either kind of guy that you feel like,

yes, we could win a Super Bowl with him. Could he be Eli Manning level? And I felt like that was Kerry Collins. I felt like he could be Eli Manning level. He got them to a Super Bowl and they had to play against the greatest defense anyone's ever had to do. You know, one, certainly one of the best podcasts here, not a Giants podcast.

You did ask the question. Can take us there. Well, the 2000 Ravens though, we're a pretty good defense. Like they're, they're, they're in that conversation of who's among the best. And that's what we're talking about. Like you had to go deal with the Ravens. That's a tough draw.

If they'd had to go against, um, you know, that Raiders team in 2002, maybe they do a little better. So yeah, you know, especially since, yeah, it was easy to figure out their play calls. But seriously, that's, uh, John Gruden is the only man who's ever defeated himself in a Super Bowl. All right. Yeah. Let's hear,

since you're so old school Giants and everything, what about Jeff Fiegel's? Yeah. Who had been an Eagles punter and started with the Patriots. I didn't know he started the Patriots. No, I mean, either. Drafted by the Patriots. Didn't he kick? They were talking about how you kick the field goal last week

or something like that. They missed. He had attempted a field goal week before because Matt Bryant got hurt and, um, and then they picked somebody up and he got hurt. And then now they had some random off the street kicking in this game who I didn't even write down his name because it wasn't worth it. Conway.

This is the only ever field goal steps. Conway. I couldn't tell you. Didn't matter to me. Yeah. He's over one in his life. Nice. He's under 29 yards too. This is a chippy.

Yeah. I've seen Wes Walker hit 29 or field goals. Yep. He's also over eight passing in his career. That's a tough look. It's a lot of bad stuff. It could be actually. He bounced it out with an absolutely amazing name.

F Eagles, especially when he's on Philadelphia. I mean, come on, what a matchup. F Eagles. That's how I remember him. Yeah. I do. F Eagles. Yeah.

Eagles are four years. Four in Arizona. Five in Seattle. And then six to finish the Giants. He's the Giants more than Steve. Steve, this is a Patriots podcast. It's on tune for the New England as well. We drafted him.

Oh my God. This is more punter talk than I was expected. Longest. Yeah. We talk a lot about punches for some reason. All right. Well, that's fine. We're not going to talk about what's his face in this one, because he's been pretty bad all season.

So I'm not even going to say his name. Greg. No. Although speaking of a bad. Special teams players Lonnie Paxton in this game got called for a false start on the fake punt that the Patriots tried. No, yeah. How do you get called for a fake punt when you're the guy snapping

the football? Isn't that just the start of the play? Yeah. I didn't get that either. And also like I hadn't seen his fake punt yet. Watching all these games. They've tried it a few times, but they keep getting penalties called on him or a time out called.

I think if you bob your head. It must be something like that. So if you move something other than the ball, he may like double. Yeah. If you move without moving the football, I think that's where your fault comes in. Yeah, but that like as a, as a.

As a, like his job is literally just to be the long snapper. You would think that's kind of all he practices. Is snapping a football all day. So the fact that he's the one getting called. For the false start is a, is a tough look. Okay. But how many, how many of these, how many snaps do you think Ronnie Paxton did in his career?

Oh, I mean, how many field goals does that inventory have on the Patriots? And how many penalties like, you know, if he's 99% perfect. Yeah. And you know, one in every hundred, this is what's going to happen. 99% ain't perfect, Dave. I'm just going to throw that out there.

That's what I'm saying. If he's 1% short of perfect, this is your 1%. If it had been an ongoing problem, I don't think you would have been as long as you are. That's true. Is it this year or next year where they have the huge long snapper problems, I guess next year, or maybe he gets hurt in this. I thought that was a one.

Wasn't it? No, no, no. Issues with a long snapper. And they're super bowl. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Super bowl.

Maybe. So Ronnie Paxton must get hurt and the guy they bring in has like a crazy roller coaster of a season snapping. So there's more to come in the long snapping. Sure. Which doesn't help because Adam military. Has now, after missing his first field goal in this game, which was a 42 yarder in shitty conditions,

but still is now, has now missed four of his last five field goals, which when you think of Adam military, you don't think of missing four out of the last five ever being a stat. Yeah. It's tough stretch. It's probably the worst that you, he may be of his, I mean, maybe of his,

maybe of his, besides the Coles, but maybe have his pages for. I would, I would assume so. On the other hand, though, I will say that. I'm going to bring it up again because my brother's gave me a lot of shit at the end of last season,

talking about how I thought Kevin Faulk was the unheralded MVP. Of the 2002 season. I think he's still probably unheralded MVP of this season because as soon as he came into this game in the second half. He was the spark. Yeah. And he's the one that lit this offense on fire. And as soon as he came in,

they started driving up and down the field. There's another game. I forget which one, but he was also a spark plug where like they got, they had nothing going. They turned to him. He's like the, it used to be Troy Brown was that spark plug.

And now they finding another one in Kevin Faulk. Yeah, exactly. And it was like, I think that speed. Okay. So I think folk speed and rushing to the outside, these are the ways that the giants have to defend them. And that opened things up for the offense because now they couldn't

cheat. Um, stay home for a little bit because my cloud just isn't as fast as folk. It's true. Um, but my cloud, uh, the week before this game had himself a game had like, what seven carry for the 75 yards and two touchdowns, something like the next coming.

And this is all because Antoine Smith is harsh. And clogging. It's all situational. Yeah. It's all situational because cloud was in the right place. He was the right person for that job the week before. And in this game where the giants had just, I mean, that was,

this was too exceptional defensive line. This game was all about the defensive line. Yeah. And the Patriots needed that guy to come out to those outside rushes and kind of stretch that defense a little bit and make them, you know, um, you know, settle them down a bit. So they couldn't, they couldn't,

it actually reminds me a little bit of what happened with Kansas city in the 2018 title game because when, when they ran Sony down the chief's throats for the first drive, yeah, she's now had to, to back off a little bit and they couldn't just go after Brady kind of, you know, um,

Yeah. It could just pin their ears. Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. And so that's what was going on here in the second half of the giants, I think.

Although I will say Michael Stray had two sacks in the game, but he was awesome. Michael Stray, he was two. This is peak Michael Stray. He finished this season with 18 and a half sacks, which is like, he won't even,

he won't even, but that's his second best season because he set a record a couple years earlier when he took, when Brett Favre kind of took that cheap sack. Yeah. Um, but, but this year it comes back with 18 and a half and he's like 33 years old.

Okay. And he was unblockable this game. He was drafted the same year as Bledsoe. Yeah. Yeah. Drafted the same year as Bledsoe and he was the most, so if you look, if you stack up pro football reference tracks value under that,

um, if you look in the draft, that stray hand had the most value of any player. Let's let off the stray hand love here. Well, wait, and let me just say this very far past on him, his teeth are very past.

That's true, but the Patriots passed on him twice because they're the number one overall pick, but they also were the first pick in the second round. Giants got them, I think three or four picks after that. Yeah. But who did the Patriots pick in those picks?

Cause they had some great drafts. Tom Brady. There's the second round pick was pretty good. Yeah. Um, I think it was not, I think they picked it off at the line though. Something like that.

Matt light maybe in someone in 92. Oh, yeah. Um, speaking of K fault, this was his career high and rushing yards. If you saw that. Oh yeah.

How many do you have? 96 or something like that. Not 87. 87. This is career high edge to that point. And he might have another one by Google it. He does not have a hundred-yard rushing game in his career. Damn.

Yeah. So yeah, I think that every pizza, shove it up your ass. Andy. So well, all right, except he finished with 87 rushing yards. Brady finished with 91 passing yards.

Wow. So, he didn't break a hundred yards passing this game. Well, actually, no, he did. They had 112, but with, if you counted the sacks,

they finished with 91 total passing. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. So Kevin folk was laid by the way. Oh, Chris. Chris laid was their second pick.

Nice. And straight hand went 40th overall. Hey, can't win them off. And I'll throw him a lot of darts on the board. Yep. You got to trade down and take as many chances as you can. Right.

Do you see how the pages are trying to get Bethel Johnson involved? Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. He was there and we're like, right? Uh,

yes. Deon branches heard in this game, as is Daniel Graham and Antoine Smith. On offense. So. The pages rolling out Bethel Johnson and. Uh, Patton and of course Troy Brown.

And Mike cloud seemed to be there only running back in the first half. I mean, I mean, I mean, he was great if you got the ball in his hands, but he couldn't fucking catch it. He's been a great kick returner this year, though.

Yeah. I know. Well, they saw his flashes on kick returns and they're like, wow, he's fucking super fast and shifty. Yeah. We'll just find ways to get the ball in his hands,

but like he was like Cordell Patterson. You know, he couldn't catch for shit either. I think Bethel Johnson can run better routes than Pat Patterson, but yes. He's like, even if you get the ball to him, he's just going to drop it.

But on kick, I mean, Cordell Patterson just tied the NFL record for a kick return touchdowns the other day. Was it a tie? Yeah. I know it was his higher second place. One of the two like that.

Yeah. Which is pretty impressive. It's not bad. Uh, who else was in this game? Oh, Wayne Lucere was in this game. What the fuck is that Andy?

He's a lineman for the offensive lineman for the Giants. He is from New Hampshire and they talked probably a bit too much about how he was a Patriots fan and he has a, the old school Pat Patriot logo tattooed on his shoulder. I love that. Yeah. That's a tough look when you're on the Giants playing the Patriots. Yeah.

I don't know how he had to had to bandage it up. All right. Let's do a, let's do our best and worst. Okay. Dave. So back when we were younger around the dinner table, we'd have to give our best and worst of the day.

So we now do that on the podcast where we just pick our best and worst thing from the game. Steve, do you want to go first? I get a couple. So you can go first actually. All right. Actually Dave, do you want to go first? Yeah.

And then we kind of sprung this on. I want to, I want to see what you guys do. I want to see how this goes. Okay. All right. Let's do Greg's cause he had to, he had to run. Something came up,

but he did leave his best is worse. Greg's best of the game is Jim Fassel saying. When it rains, it pours about their turnovers, which is, it's raining out. Yeah. I get it. It's clever wordplay, but.

Yeah. All right. And his worst is that Kerry Collins through 59 times in this game and managed to rack up an entire seven points. That is tough. And it wasn't like they were down big either. You know, it's even better. They didn't even score seven points.

They scored six. That's true. The first quarter, one in the fourth quarter. Oh, yeah. It was nothing. Yeah. And he had the touchdown. He just like it.

Missed. Let's see. I got a couple of best here. One of my best was in one of the game breaks. They went to the Cowboys Eagles game. And the Eagles attempted a surprise on size kick, which the Cowboys, I don't even know who he was.

I couldn't remember the names. Williams, maybe caught the ball in full in stride and returned it for an untouched kickoff return touchdown. It was the opening against the Eagles. Yeah. Apparently. The Cowboys. It was one of the game breaks during the game where.

Yeah. The Eagles did a surprise on size kick. I missed that. Been to start the game. Yeah. And. The Giants did that. The Giants did that to the Eagles. Just a year or two before this.

And I think it was, I think it was in 2000. Because they beat the Eagles in the playoffs. And this was during the right, they beat the Eagles three times I think that year. And Jason Seahorn was on a hand team. And the Eagles was late in the game. They had to do an onsite kick that the Giants were expecting. And they just kicked a line drive to Jason Seahorn and he ran it in.

Apparently the announcer was saying that the Eagles had done this the last time they played the Cowboys and it had worked. It was the first kick of the game. What? Yeah. Okay. Onside kick. So like,

clearly the Cowboys can play fucking film and be ready for it. And the dude was ready for it. Caught it on the bounce. Yeah. And see you later. Had a full sprint and just like untouched. Yeah. Yeah.

What's the worst that could happen? I don't know. You go down seven fucking nothing with like two seconds into the game. Yeah. So that was, that was. That was one about there for one of the quickest scores in NFL history. That's probably close. Yeah.

He caught that pretty much full sprint. Just grabbed it off the opening kick and is in, in there for like 40 yards later. Yeah. I mean, the only. Yeah. The only quicker score I can think of is when during the butt fumble game, when the Jets returned that kickoff and the ball popped out and

caught it and just like walked it in for a touchdown. That was probably quicker from like kickoff to score, but it wasn't the beginning of the game. So, right. I mean, I guess that probably made it happen. But yeah. That was a, that was a, that was a quick one. Let's see.

Oh, I also touched on this before. I really enjoyed all the fullback talk by Moose Johnson. Sure. Apparently I looked up Moose Johnson and he is, he was so good as a fullback that he's the reason there is like a fullback position in the Hall of Fame now. Right. He basically created it for it to get him in.

And now there's fullbacks in the Hall of Fame because of him. So that's not. I mean, I'm assuming Moose isn't his actual name. No, his name is Daryl, but Moose just because of how big he was. Yeah. That makes more sense. Yeah.

Let's see my worst. I think my worst would be. Tiki Barber. Because he like from that first fumble, he looked like he was a basket case like mentally. You could see every time they showed a close up of his face and stuff. He just looked like he didn't want to be on that football field,

which you don't ever really see in a football player anymore. And it just kind of like, there was a whole lot of like little pieces like that. That maybe why this team fell apart because it almost felt like Jim Fossil was losing the locker room. Like they kept. Talking about like these little things here and there, like, uh,

Vissan Vissan, they shanko was tossed from practice this week. They didn't explain why, but they're like, oh, this sort of stuff has been happening with the Giants and like, like kind of talking around the issues that the Giants were having in the locker room without actually really addressing any of them. And so just the whole, you know,

Tiki talking all week about playing mentally tough and then immediately giving up the fumble kind of like, not a great look. I mean, it was great to watch though. Yeah. I also, I don't remember what this clip is because I didn't mark it. He's gonna play it as well.

Yeah. So I just have, it's checkers and chess compared to Jim Fossil, Jim Fossil. Let's find out what this is. Well, that's right. So, um, so the pager has completed a long pass down the sideline to Pat,

which was a sick grab. It was. And it would have stood if that would have been a bad challenge. Yeah, it would have been. But the fact that he, that Jim Fossil tried to challenge it two plays later, it would have been a bad challenge. It would have been a bad challenge.

But the fact that he, that Jim Fossil tried to challenge it two plays later, because the Patriots ran up and Brady ran a QB sneaks so that they couldn't. Is like, that's the exact, those are like those small little things that Bill Belichick teaches his team.

That like other coaches don't think about, you know, that's true. You don't too see too many QB sneaks when they try to run the quick play. They always try to get a play and just get up there, get a playoff so that they can't challenge it if it's closed. We don't, we don't care if it's correct.

The correct call or not. Like we're not, we're going to find out. We're just going to like put the pressure on them to do that. Right. And like everybody does it now, but like Belichick was the one that. Yes.

Do you hear in that ref's explanation? This is back when they had the buzzers. Correct. Yeah. Instead of the flag. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I think both.

Cause. This is what Belichick does. Is that he thinks these things through because he knows they're going to happen in the game. And so many times we see the lead catch up later. The big one that comes to mind for me is deferring on the kickoff. Yeah. That's a big one.

No one else did that. No one else was doing that regularly. When that, when they changed the coin toss rule. And Bill started immediately deferring. And now deferring is standard. Yeah. That's a good point.

Don't do it. And now running up to the line, running up to the line, snap the ball. So the other team can't review is standard as is. Trying to get a time out in to prevent the, the offense from doing that. Yeah.

There's a little bit of gamesmanship now. Or even in this game, you saw it too, where towards the end of the half. Like out of a break, the, the job, the giant's would come out to, to run a play and they would line

up and then Belichick would immediately call a time out and make them have to change what play they're doing and also be able to prepare their defense specifically for this. Like all the different things that could happen in this, this situation. Well, I'm Greg. I'm glad Greg isn't here to shit on Belichick because he was texting me this week about how he should have declined some off

sides penalty during the Ravens game. Yeah. Greg's, Greg's too much of a fence sitter for me. It's a dynasty. All right. I'll give you my best and worst. All right. Well, I got one more. Oh God.

It's just the worst. And it was the, the Fox broadcast. When they were trying to show the, the starting lineups at the beginning. The, the Patriots one with all the backs and receivers was empty. It had Michael cloud in there and a picture Troy Brown, but no names. Tough as a technical issues.

Wasn't great. One where like the, the fucking, they tried to like drop down the timeouts, whatever. And it just like, which is gentle. No, no, no. It's like. Yeah.

And then went away. It was, it was very strange. Yeah. It was, it was a rough outing for the, the Fox team. So what do you guys do? Too best. Too worse. Which ones do you prefer?

Yeah. Yeah. The Fox team. So what do you guys do? Too best. Too worse. Which ones do you want? How do you want them?

I like to worse and then too best. You tell me I'll deliver them. Give me best first and then worse. This is Matt Chatham's best game. Correct. Fumble recovery for a touchdown. He had a good set. He had a sack and a tackle for a loss.

He was kind of all over the backside of the backfield. I thought he played super well and like, you know, he's getting that spot start and he showed up. Yep. And we talked to Matt about that and showed him all his stuff. And nice to see that. Like, and we, I know this game was coming up, you know,

from the interview we did with him and it was cool to like, see it actually in play, even if it was a terrible game to actually watch. Yeah. And then my real best was, or my other best will call it. Good save. It was a little muscling must have been a Caroline blue in the

stands at halftime, you know, because they couldn't catch a fucking ball. Damn half. And all of a sudden they come out in the second half and they want that, that dumb broad who's been drinking all day. You guys got to start catching them too. Cam Newton wasn't in this game.

So I don't know if that's, I'm dropping fucking balls on all game, which is like how you're bringing back Cam Newton, erotica. Yeah. Yeah. Three weeks later. Six weeks later.

Jesus Christ. Good for you. What are you all worse? There was a play we breathe in the, in the red zone and had a crossing route on third down to, uh, let's say in the fullback and just like in the um, just like,

he like, didn't even try to get out of the way. Nope. Hit him square in the chest. It's like he wasn't expecting the ball to come be thrown right at him. You know, he's like, Oh shit,

a ball, you know, come on buddy, get your head on the swivel a little bit. And then, and then the commentators talked about how even he couldn't catch the ball and he was dropping them. Yeah. Cause at that point,

Brad, I think was still one for nine with four drops. Brutal. It was a tough look. Yeah. And then there was like a, a triple sack where Collins got like wrecked. Oh yeah.

Right. I caught him in the head. Yeah. And it wasn't like a super dirty hit. Um, but I don't know if you notice this. The commentators reference a hit in the preseason by Bill Romanowski.

Oh, I heard about that. Yeah. And I actually, I can Google that right when we started this podcast, I don't know if you saw my face. It's ridiculous. Really? Yeah.

Bill Romanowski breaks Kelly Collins jaw. It's on YouTube. It's five seconds long. Oh God. It is an abs. And to think that this is the fucking preseason is insane. That's Bill. Bill Romanowski was a fucking psychopath.

So that doesn't really surprise me. So it took his head off, broke his jaw in two places. Holy shit. Yeah. In the fucking preseason. In the preseason. God.

And like, I mean, like, I caught him like, it was actually kind of the same spot right on the chin, but like Romanowski got him like full head of steam, clean. Very fucking like, I was just like, it was like a bang, bang sort of play. Well,

just to go off that, I had a note from that play too. And it was that Kerry Collins looks like a failed standup comedian with his helmet off. Okay. Cause he was like, moderately attracted, completely disheveled.

That like, looked like he'd been on the road for six weeks and like, you hadn't shaved or showered very well for a while. And just look completely burnt out, like dead behind the eyes sort of look. Well, I bet he could give you a tight five passes and get six points out of the whole effort.

So I could definitely understand that. Yeah. He kind of look, he's one of those guys like Jim Brewer. He always looks like he's high. Yes. Right. He had a very Jim Brewer ask,

look, I think that's probably who I pictured in my mind when I, when I wrote that down. Oh, see, think Jim Brewers failed. I got it. Yeah.

That's, that's curious. Well, Kerry Collins funny, not Chris Rock, but I think that Kerry Collins and Jim Brewer are pretty much in the same boat. In terms of career success.

So what you're saying is Kerry Collins is the Jim Brewer of quarterbacks. Sure. Let's do it. I'm in for this. All right. You got to best and worst, Dave. Okay.

I, I mean, I don't, normally I would just not copy somebody, but and not be redundant, but I don't want to lose sight of how bad to keep Barbara was in the game.

And he deserves to get like a double whammy at least on worst, because look, I mean, you set it up perfectly with the clip about how TV barbers are there saying how tough they have to be. And he's the first guy with the ball on the ground. And you know what I mean? In the worst situation,

give them seven and then it's just a complete disaster. He's trying to protect the ball for the rest of the game and just not playing like himself. And you know, thankfully Tom Coughlin got him back on track, but you know, he wasn't even there by by 2007. Like Tiki Barbara is one of those guys who like, I don't know,

just, just a real, has a real frustrating star to have on your team. And this game went a long way and showing why, because you can see the guy is super talented, but man, there's just some things that happen that it just driving up to the fan. So almost like some parallels to like a Terry Glenn on the Patriots,

I would feel. Sure. Made. I wasn't as involved when Glenn was here. So that was similar, like super talented, but just a basket case and couldn't keep himself on the field. Just because he couldn't get out of his own head, basically. So for all of our listeners who are like,

who the fuck is Jim Brewer like me? Really? Yeah. I'm terrible with names. He's the guy from half baked. Yeah. There you go. But my God,

the fucking spitting image. Yeah. And then Carrie Collins. Right. Oh my, they could be dead on. The definitely related somehow. I'll take that 23 and me and figure out how far back that goes.

Because that connects. Imagine it was the same person. I mean, it's a stoner comic on the weekends, the weekdays hanging out, they should bell on fucking Monday through Friday and then going out and throwing four picks on Sunday. Yeah.

59 passes and four picks. No big deal. So is that your best or worst, Dave? I think that was your worst, right? That's my worst. So the best mark tomorrow. Yeah. When you,

when you talk about Jeremy Shockey, you never really talk about the national broadcast. You would never really talk about Mark Bravaro because he was like the greatest giant plate end before Shockey. And really still isn't the mind of the Giants fans. He's a man. Okay. And in the mind of Bill Belichick too, for that matter.

We need loves. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And the thing about Bravaro is that like, he's a real hands on the dirt, like tough guy. He's super classy. And he's like,

he's like, he's like, hey, you know, I hear you, you hang out and you coach and you, you help. He's like, I'm just glad that Belichick is gracious enough to let me do it.

Yeah. And I was like, yes, Mark Bravaro, you are awesome. He's like, I'll do anything for a free t-shirt. I'll work anyway for a free t-shirt. Like, fuck yeah.

Yeah. He's like, I'm here for t-shirts and I'm glad I'm glad that I get the privilege of getting a t-shirt to help people out. That was awesome. He was, that was a great moment for me. Mark Bravaro on the sidelines.

And plus, the Patriots love him too. Everybody, this is the thing. Everybody loves Mark Bravaro. There's nobody's not, like I grew up, a fan,

one of my best friends growing up, loved Washington. I don't know why he grew up here, probably because Joe Gibbs, they're a, they won three Super Bowl. He had an autographed picture of Mark Bravaro on his wall in his bedroom.

Everybody loves Mark Bravaro. It's just that guy. Yeah. So here's my point though. Shockey is not that sort of tight end, you know, cause he's so polarizing and I hate Shockey. So maybe Mark Bravaro is the original Gronk.

Yes. Cause everybody loves Gronk. No, no, no, no, no. You don't think everybody loves Gronk? Everybody loves Gronk. Everybody loves Gronk. Everybody loves Gronk. Yeah, that's true.

But Gronk's like a happier version of Shockey. And the reason Shockey isn't Kelsey is because he can block. Kelsey and Shockey are very similar because like, I fucking hate Kelsey too. Yeah. Cause he's a bit of a dude. Shockey is an asset in the run game. The guy can block.

It's much like Gronk. Like I'm just saying, Gronk is, if you start with Shockey and then you want to, and then you improve everything. Yeah. You make him taller, faster and stronger. In more like,

crush more Natty lights and like remove the douche. Yes. From him. Yeah. There's still a douche vein in Gronk. Yeah. But like the lovable douche part, not the canoe part. Yeah.

He's more like that asshole golden retriever that's shitting on the rug, but it's still funny. So it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a dog being a dog. What are you going to be mad at? You know?

Listen. Mark. The bar was great. Agreed. It's a great bus. I can get behind that. Even I can get behind that. Yeah.

All right. Well, I think that wraps it up for week six of the 2003 season. Oh, don't forget. We still have a hotline. Steve, you remember the hotline number?

Uh, 603 505 Troy Brown for three. Nice. 505 804 three. Area code 603, baby. So you can text or call that and leave us a voicemail or leave

us a text. And if you do that, we may or may not. I'm going to be in fucking jail. And then you're like, you have one phone call, Steve. I don't remember any numbers, but I know this. I know that. I know our dynasty podcast hotline. Oh, fuck.

Yeah. So if you have if you have any feedback for me and Steve or for Dave, for any of the Browns really, let us know and we will. And we will share it with the appropriate Brown. Except for Greg because he keeps leaving us. Fuck that guy.

But Dave, thank you very much for coming on. This has been great. It's been awesome to have a, a giant's perspective. I think you bring my, my pleasure. Come find me. Come finding 2007. There's a couple games.

Yeah. We'll find you for the first one. But I think the podcast is actually going to end. I don't think it goes any further. I'm excited. I'm excited cause I was at both of those games and I'd love to talk about it. So either or both.

I don't care. But, but don't, don't lose my number when you get. All right. No promises. If we do get there though, you will be the first to know. Big bet. All right.

What do we have next week, Steve Brown? I have no idea. I did. Awesome. You never do. I love that about you. You tell me, I was a good little fucking ridiculous show.

No show notes that nobody reads except one person. Every guest appearance reads. I'll take it. Uh, Next week. Oh, by the way, next week episode 50. That will be our 50th episode.

No shit. So thanks to my brown brothers for actually, um, not only doing the six that I asked, but also another 40. My brown brothers need me. Like Greg's not even on right now. Yeah.

All right. So to you, Steve, a heartfelt thank you for, for being here for. You're welcome, man. You did give me a free hat. So I'm in on that. That's true.

Yeah. I did. I'll do anything for a free t-shirt. I'm like Mark. I agree. All right. Next week. Page to travel to Miami.

Oh, that's a hard place for us to win. As we know, it is. So let's see if this is what happens. Next week on the stomp everybody for like the next, whatever it's the best. I love this.

Thanks for ruining my accuracy. I appreciate it. That's awesome. Yeah. Stepping all over it. Well, you can listen to more bickering between the brown brothers and, uh,

recap of the Patriots dolphins game next week on the Patriots dynasty podcast. See you later. Yeah. Later.