Patriots Dynasty Podcast - Offseason: Richie Incognito Bullying Scandal

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

We recorded this during the 2001 bye week episode, but haven't had a chance to share it with you until now. Listen in as Greg does a deep dive into Richie Incognito, Jonathan Martin, and bullying in the NFL.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/patriots-dynasty-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is Christine Brown and while I have to listen to this podcast as my motherly duty, you have the choice not to. My sons, and of course Michael, sometimes say some naughty things when they're trying to be funny. But really, they're just being stupid. You still want to listen? Go right ahead. I am not your mother. All right. Welcome back to the Page of Dynasty podcast. I'm your host, Andy Brown. We'll be starting the 2003 season in a few weeks, but we're going to take a little detour before we dive in and air some of the non-game recap episodes we've recorded along the way while we've been doing these. So we're going to do those for a couple of weeks and then we'll be

back starting with 2003 season. So this week is going to be a deep dive that Greg did into the Richie Incognito scandal. So enjoy. We'll see you soon. Greg. All right. Let's get into it. All right. So I think most of us are familiar or at least remember to a certain degree, the Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin scandal on the Miami Dolphins back in 2013. So just to give you some context as to who the two guys were, Jonathan Martin, he was a second round pick out of Stanford in 2012. So this all went down in his second year in the NFL. So he's still pretty new to the league. His dad was a Harvard grad and criminal justice professor at Cal State. His mom was a Harvard grad and a corporate lawyer for

Toyota. Jonathan Martin here. Jonathan Martin. Yeah. So obviously he had a decent upbringing and a fairly affluent family, right? Yeah. As far as mental health issues go, he had had discussions about having severe depression. And he had, you know, there's emails with him and his mom talking about how he had contemplated suicide before he showed it to Miami. So this is, you know, this didn't develop in Miami, but he had had issues going in. Gotcha. Incognito, on the other hand. He was a 2005 third round pick. So he'd been in the league for eight years by now. He kind of bounced around. He'd been, you know, he was a great athlete, but definitely had character

concerns. In college, he was kicked off Nebraska for all sorts of stuff it looked like. They put him in like anger management courses. He had like multiple things of spitting on opponents, getting in fights, all that stuff. Quite multiple spitting incidents. Yeah. There was a couple. Even Roman Houskey didn't have multiple spitting incidents. Yeah, right? He's like poster boy. Yeah. So 2012, he was his first year in Miami. So that was Martin's rookie year. And it happened to be incognito's best year in the pros. He was a pro bowler that year. And coincidentally, he got awarded the Good Guy Award for a player who best helps the media do its job, which it's pretty ironic considering how the media approach. Is it though? Because I

feel like he basically wrote the story for him. That's exactly what I'm saying. Be a media member in Miami at that time. Hasn't been like Dick easy. Yeah. Yeah. But think of which content he gave him the next year. He should have won that award multiple times. Yeah. The stories wrote themselves. Maybe we'll give it to him this year. So 2013 is the year that it all goes down, right? So this is Martin's second year in Miami, incognito's second year on the Dolphins. And a few weeks into the season, I think it was like November, Martin unexpectedly leaves the team citing emotional reasons. So that's all that we know in the press, right? So all these rumors start swirling about like, what are these emotional

reasons? What's really going on? And then the press gets ahold of a voicemail from incognito to Martin, where he drops an N word. He sounds like shitfaced on the call. He says like, I want a shit in your fucking mouth. I'm going to slap your fucking mouth. I'm going to slap your real mother across the face. Fuck you. You're still a rookie. I'll kill you. So once that comes out, Miami's like, you're done. They suspend the rest. And then basically from there, the whole like leak to the press gradually comes out. So there's a lot of like information getting thrown around about, you know, coming from both camps incognito does and sit down interview with like NBC or one of those people. I feel like I remember that. Yeah. There's not a lot coming from Martin.

He's pretty quiet himself. There's like some stuff from his lawyer, but nothing really directly from Martin. So yeah, then the NFL has Ted Wells recognize that name. Boy. He does a hell of a job. How much money did he make off the NFL? My God. For real. So he does a, you know, one of his official report investigation things. He finds whatever the NFL wants him to find. All right. And he ultimately his, you know, finding was that there was a pattern of harassment between incognito and a couple other players on the dolphins, basically bullying Jonathan Martin. And there's a lot of detail on the report. There's, it's more. So not all of it gets released, right? So there isn't all the text messages, which I thought was pretty interesting. So they like

highlight certain stuff in the report, like some of the worst things that he said to him over text. How bad does it get? All right. So yeah. So here's how I got it organized here. I got the case against incognito and then the case for incognito, right? All right. So the case against incognito. There's some pretty raunchy shit. There was some stuff specifically about Martin's sister. I'll read you some quotes here. We're going to run train on your sister. She loves me. I'm going to fuck her without a condom and come in her cunt. Hey, Jaymart sister's in town. Get the plastic sheets ready. She's a squirter. I'm going in that sense. If he knows that personally, then I mean, it is what it is. But if he doesn't, that's really messed

up. Yeah. This next one's kind of ironic. I'm going to bang the shit out of her and spit on her and treat her like shit. All right. That one is definitely wrong. She's a squirter. He's a spitter. You know, what are you going to do? Hence the sheets. Yeah. And my personal favorite, my favorite quote to come on this whole thing. Hear your sister as a wolf puss, a fat, hairy pussy. Now, I'm curious where these texts come in context of the conversation. Exactly. Oh, we'll get there, Mike. All right. All right. This is the case against. Yeah. So then there was some other stuff about him like pulling a trainer, like there was like an Asian trainer there, and they were making like Pearl Harbor jokes or something like that.

Some more of the sister stuff. He claimed, Martin claimed that on the practice field in incognito, Jerry and Pouncy would call his sister a squirter and then squirt water onto the field from the water bottles. And that while engaged and warm up stretching, they would simulate having sex with his sister. Incognito confirmed these allegations. So incognito is not really high. You can't get arrested for being a dickhead, I guess. Yeah. And he's not, he's not denying any of this, right? Incognito says, yeah, I said all this stuff. I did all this stuff. Is his sister hot? Is the other question. Does he even have a sister? Well, yeah, that's a good question. And also, did they actually date the incognito actually date his sister?

I don't know. We'll have to find that out. Yeah. Stat check, Steve. Yeah, I'll do it. Okay. So then the other big, the piece against incognito is there's a lot of, well, not a lot, but there is a fair amount of N words thrown in there, right? Martin's a black player, incognito obviously white. So in text messages in voicemails, he's throwing that word around pretty flippantly. All right. So the other side of the coin, the case for incognito. So when all this goes down, right, it all starts getting leaked to the press. There's records of the text messages between incognito text, Jonathan Martin, and is like, Hey, how you doing? Like, I missed you. What's going on here? And Martin's like, Yeah, no, no, this has nothing to do with you. This is all

you know, none of this is coming from me. And it sounds like really cordial, right? Yeah. So that was kind of weird. And then maybe like three, four months after like, all that went down, they released the text message history between the two of them. So this is like over over roughly a year. Yeah, over a year. And there's like over 1000 text messages between the two of them. Wait, and did you find out why they waited so long to release on that? Yeah. So what one of them they, they said that they don't know where the leak comes from. But they they were, you know, the thing I read was that they were implying it was coming from incognito's party just because it, it honestly puts some of it in context. And, you know, it makes it look better

for incognito for being honest. Because I mean, essentially, who's text, who's text and somebody they like dislike or bully 1000 times, right? Unless he's intimidated, but it definitely like gives like context because if you're picking and choosing like isolated shit, which like happens every day now, it kind of sucks. Like, and I'm not saying that incognito is right or not. I don't know the whole thing we're finding out. But I obviously it's alive, more advantageous to picking choose as opposed to just showing us what happened. Right, exactly. Yeah. And that's, and that's basically what you got. I read through every single one of the text messages. And it was, it was amazing. I tell you, there's some unbelievable stuff in there. But the,

the overall point of it is, I mean, these two guys were, it didn't come off as like an intimidation thing, right? Like incognito is inviting them out to like all the texts were about them like going out and getting puts essentially. Oh, dude, some of it's Raji as hell. But at the end of the day, like incognito is like, you know, being like, hey, meet me out here, what are you doing tonight? Like, let's go, let's go to Vegas together, this and that. And, you know, Martin's is giving it back to him, too. He's not being just like a passive. Yeah, you have some of like, you have some of his texts. Yeah, so there's one that that incognito is kind of standing by where it's he sends him a Martin sends him a meme.

And it's like, I will murder you and your whole fucking family. Right? So that's like, yes. So they're going back and forth kind of shitting on each other, right? Some of it's definitely over the line. If you're in. Well, yeah, give me some more of the like wolf pussy shit from like the Jonathan camp. So Jonathan's not so much like he's less of like I'm being like aggressive towards incognito, but he does say a lot of like, I mean, he's talking about like coming on girls, titties and shit like, you know, like, like raunchy shit himself. It's not so much he didn't seem like a guy. Not incognito sister or whatever, just some random. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Locker room talk, as we say. Locker room talk, right? Yeah. And to be honest, being a football player in your twenties in Miami sounds awesome. Sounds awesome. I don't even think of that. But yeah, because these guys, you know, they're off season, they're just like going out to these bars, getting like the best treatment they can do whatever they want. You know, they got all the clothes in Miami here. Yeah. Yeah. It's unbelievable. So it kind of gave you a sneak peek until like, hey, what's actually going on in these players lives, you know, in the off season, which I thought was pretty interesting. But I'll get to some of the quotes in a little bit because some of it's funny. I just pulled out a few of them. But so another thing that kind of supports incognito,

when it all went down, a lot of the dolphins players actually came out and defended Richie. So, you know, the media went interviewed every single player in that team and almost, you know, a lot of people said no comment, but a few people were saying, hey, listen, like, these guys are best friends. And I don't, I don't agree with this, you know, accusation of bullying, basically, there were more forward than I thought people would be. So I can read you a quote from Ryan Tannell, actually, yeah, quarterback speaking. Yeah. He said, if you had asked John Martin a week ago, a week before who his best friend on the team was, he would have said Richie incognito, the first guy to stand up for Jonathan when anything went down

in the field. Any kind of tussle, Richie was the first guy there when they wanted to hang out outside of football, who was together, Richie and Jonathan. Damn. So that, I mean, that's pretty forward, right? Yeah, but here's, I'm going to throw this out there because, you know, a lot of this stuff pops up even with like the, you know, like the Harvey Weinstein stuff, like his, his trial, the like big thing that like his defense had on his side was that after these allegations, whatever might have happened, that, you know, these, his victims would continue a relationship with him or, or reach out to him or be very cordial or whatever. Now, obviously, like, you know, he's, he's a guy of power and whatever. So it's a little

different situation than like teammates. But what I'm, what I'm thinking is, so I'm not going to say any names, but I mean, you guys would know what I'm talking about Andy for sure. But in growing up, you know, I definitely know that I hung out with some people that maybe like you, you, you, how do you meet people, right? You're in a class together, you like have some activity together and all of a sudden you're just like hanging out all the time. And, you know, that progresses with your circle of friends and as the years go on, whatever. And so certain dynamics start happening. And I can say for myself, there have been people that I'm like, Oh man, like this person's my friend, like they're cool, whatever. But like, I don't feel that great when I'm like

with them, but you don't know why necessarily, you're just kind of like, ah, this kind of feels like shit or whatever. It's the point where as you get older, you change. Because, you know, I was kind of like quiet when I was younger. But then as I got older, I was like, fuck this, like, I'm going to say what I wanted. And like, I felt like nothing matters anyway, whatever, fuck it. So as I started vocalizing, it changes the dynamic because it's like, Oh, wait a minute, I thought we were this and now you're like, acting this way, pisses me off type of thing. But a lot of times I felt like I hung out with people were like, you know, if I pissed them off, or I was like, dude, just like, shut up or leave me alone, they might set your house on fire. Like,

you don't know, you know what I mean? So I'm wondering. And, you know, as we continue talking about this, I'm curious, was were they friends or was it a situation that like Jonathan never like opened up and like defended himself and was like, dude, shut up. Or if he actually was his buddy, they talk like that because obviously we all have friends that we say stupid shit with each other. And it's not necessarily personally offensive, maybe to other people. But, but yeah, I'm curious, like, were they buddies or was it a situation that it looked like their buddies? And he's like, fuck this guy. Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a pretty interesting take. I mean, I think, I think I understand you could argue that he, Richie does have a certain amount of power over

Martin, right? Because he's, he's a pro bowler. He's a leader in the locker room. Actually, yeah, it's a really good point. Yeah. There's definitely so for I actually pulled out some texts from the text thing that I thought was kind of like, because most of the talk is not serious at all, right? They're not actually discussing real problems and they're just shooting the shit. So it's kind of hard to get a read on that of, hey, what would happen if Jonathan Martin says, Hey, listen, like, you know, I'm having a real problem or, you know, I feel depressed. I mean, yeah, I'm in the dumps this week, stuff like that. Did you see anything in the text where he was more personable like that?

Yeah. So there was one thing where they're supposed to go to Vegas and like, Richie was like, giving him shit about like, Hey, you got to bring $6,000, you know, because you're the rookie still, this and that. And Martin says, man, I just can't justify this Vegas trip with what I've been dealing with recently. Let me know if I owe you anything for the room. And Richie said, it's all good. Let me know if you need anything, which I thought was considering the text leading up to that, where he was like, fuck you, you pussy. That one seemed as like a, all right, like he kind of gets it, you know, that's a bro's text right there. Right, exactly. There is one where I mean, granted, this is still kind of shooting the ship. But he says,

Richie says, what's up, pussy? I love you. Hashtag bipolar relationship. There was one about getting a girl pregnant too. I don't think I pulled it out, but basically he was like, yo, if you know, do you like have sex with that girl last night? And he's like, oh, here it is. You good, dude? Did you get some chick pregnant? I'll help. I'll help you offer if that's the case. But again, it's like a bit tongue in cheek, but it's kind of like, hey, you know, I'm on your team type of thing. Yeah. So I mean, it's kind of hard to get a read on what they would if they had serious stuff going on. Quick question, Greg. How many hours of reading was all these

text messages? Oh, it was like a half hour. Oh, really? Yeah. That sounds like a while. See, go ahead. Go ahead, Mike. No, no, it's going to take us on a tangent. So go for it. Yeah. I mean, most of it was like some of it was kind of mundane, but when I first started, I was like, dude, there's so much funny shit in here. And like a quarter of the way through, I was like, all right, I got to like filter down what I think is funny because all of this is pretty funny. Well, I was going to bring up another situation and maybe you guys can like, you know, as we discuss their relationship, I don't know if you have experienced this kind of stuff, I would imagine everyone has dealt with somewhat of

similar situations throughout their life, at least one point or another. But, you know, another example of like when I was older now. So at this point, I was like, all right, you know, I am confident in how what I think and I feel comfortable like speaking, but I was in a work environment. And it was very like casual environment, you know, and co workers, they're all older, and just kind of saying vile shit. And like, you know, you grow up here in this kind of stuff, but as the generations like continue or whatever, things aren't the way that they used to be. And so it used to kind of piss me off, like you would just say stuff and not out of a sensitive aspect. Like I wasn't like offended. It was like obnoxious. Like I was like, man, this guy

just talking out of his ass and I got to listen to it all the time. But I kept my mouth shut for a long time because I was like, you know, there's a workplace and like, these guys have been around for 15 years. So like, whatever. And I put up with this crap. And I hated this job every day, worse and worse, because like these people just talked about the dumbest shit that I didn't agree with. I let it go. And I let it go. And this guy wasn't a friend. But what I started seeing happen was that he believed that we were friends, right? So I gave him this false sense of security where I didn't check him. And so he kind of just ran his mouth and I kind of just laughed it off and whatever. It got to the point where it was annoying, he couldn't even tell, you know, like, and so

it came to a culmination where I believe this happened like right after the Trump was in office. And I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks. And I don't care, whatever your for Trump, your against them, I don't really give a shit. But the way that he was talking about it, pissed me off so much, because he didn't even like this guy didn't even vote or anything. So I was like, dude, who are you to like tell me anything and whatever. And I was like, I lost my shit and I went off on them. And I was like, you fucking asshole, I've been sitting here listening to your crap and I'm tired of you as a person. There's a little bit much, you know, I was like, that doesn't sound like you. Yeah, a little too extreme. You go from like big buddies to like,

all of a sudden, it's like, Hey, here's like a year and a half's worth of like why I hate you. So there's probably better ways to like, wait, let me get the PowerPoint, hang on. Exactly. So I probably should have filtered that a little bit before getting to that point. I'm learning. But I also acknowledge that I gave that guy sort of a free pass for so long that he didn't know that he was like even bothering me. And I'm like to his credit, like, which I felt so bad. But I was like, dude, just like, do your job and leave me alone. And then like, half hour later, he like bought a cupcake for me or something. He's like, Hey, man, like how about the Patriots, whatever we were talking for a little bit. And then he's like, you still mad at me? And he didn't

understand why I was mad. So is it and I don't know if you guys have been in certain situations like that. I mean, you know, you need a ton of people all the time, but those are two different sides of like this conversation where it's like, it looks like a friendship and one person might even think it's a friendship. So they're like, no one's necessarily wrong in the situation if they're not malicious, but can it still be a detriment? I think so. It's just no, but I think in the other case, though, you generally keep that guy at bay. You're not spending your free time with him. Good point. Well, the first scenario, I did spend time with a person, it wasn't necessarily like my first choice. So you were hanging out with him outside of work?

I was, yeah. Yeah, I mean, Andy has been in similar situations, I know for a fact, so and he probably knows what I'm talking about. But yeah, there are scenarios. You can say it. I got, I was stuck in a pool van with my brothers. What? I was stuck in a pool van with my brothers having less of them talk pretend that we were friends. Oh boy. Are you talking about? No, I was talking about just friends that we've had along the way. I loved our time together. Just because I was the boss. He didn't want to listen to me. Oh, he was your boss. Damn. You didn't tell me that. Yeah, I mean, it was very clear you were upset, Andy. You hated that job. Wait, we've been friends throughout the whole time.

You didn't tell me that Steve was your boss. He thought he was the boss. Andy was a great employee. Greg was the worst. Yeah, because you're because we're fucking clean in pools, bro. Yeah, he didn't listen to anything I tried to tell you to do. He was like, yeah, that's because Steve was like, Oh, we're going to change the world clean these pools. I was like, dude, I'm making eight bucks an hour in the summer. Give me a break. I'm just trying to survive this thing. And I was the other end of the spectrum talking about how I hated my life. I wanted to kill everybody. When was this around the same time? Yeah, those are dark days for you guys working. Well, Steve

Steve started there and then I joined Steve left and then Greg joined. Oh, okay. So we're kind of all overlapped. But yeah, so I mean, I know you're joking about your brothers and whatever, but like, you know what I'm talking about, like as we were growing up. And so my question is, and I don't know how it even happens because I don't even think like, like I didn't even know that I didn't like hanging out with like certain people until like time passes and you're like, wait a minute, what the hell am I doing? And then it gets awkward, right? Because if you bring it up and people are like, whoa, you know, what happened the last three years or whatever. Yeah, that's true. So I don't know if you can speak to that or anything similar

with your experiences, because we were also like quiet people. But we knew everybody who are friendly with everybody. But I think it's easy to get lulled into situations where then after an outside perspective is like, yay or nay, one way or another, like incognito is an asshole or he's not or Martin should have done this or he, you know, he's lying. And it's tough to tell. Yeah, I'm sure there's a whole lot of gray area too. I mean, it may have been something like that where they may have been friends at the beginning or maybe they were friends, but, you know, Martin kind of, like you said, kind of grew grew apart. And that changed everything. But without being in there, like, I think I know what you're saying. And in our friend group growing

up, there were a few people that I was less than thrilled with. Fulijie, if you're listening, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, he is. He may be our own listener. So I don't really want to talk to you. I love you, Fulijie. But yeah, no, I think, and I think if you're looking at it from the outside, especially if you're like a passive person too, which it seems Jonathan Martin may have been, then even if you're what was he, six, four, 300 pounds, like that you still like inside still have that thing, we're just going to go along with whatever they say. And because Richie and Cognito is the pro bowler and the leader of this team, you, you're just going to go along with what he says. And if he says you guys are friends and your friends and less like something changes, you

know, yeah. And perhaps his Harvard educated parents may have opened his eyes to some of what was going on as well. Oh, true. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the media response to it all. Yeah, I mean, the media is kind of what you'd expect. I mean, maybe it's changed a little bit since then, but you know, if the headline is, you know, incognito drops N word and blah, blah, blah about teammate, you know, it was all like high level stuff. No one really got into the weeds of it of like, trying to look at the actual context of the stuff it was, you know, trying to get people to click on their article. Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a great area thing, right?

For sure. Yeah, one guy is more nuanced. Just Richie and Cognito has literally zero filter. And it's just talking about Wolf plus left and right. Incognito thinks he's doing a good thing, right? He thinks he's taking a quiet teammate and like pulling them into the group, right? Mm hmm. I don't think it was like, maliciously intended by him. Exactly. It doesn't mean that it didn't impact, you know, Martin's mental health negatively. Right. Yeah. Right. I know that's a tough thing. But if you look at the media reports, right? Like you said, Greg, just white guy calls black guy N word. Yeah, right. But it is also tough because there was an age

difference, right? So when you're young and you're in a new environment, you might think a certain way. And like, you know, how I think Andy said, maybe, or maybe it was you, Greg, but how his parents may have sort of enlightened him as things went on, like, hey, you're a football player, but you don't necessarily have to take this or whatever. Or maybe he didn't even know how he was feeling. And then he figured it out over time. I don't think based on what I've remember from the past, that incognito was was in trying to be malicious, like Steve was saying. Yeah. It seems to me that incognito had some like other shit going on with him. He was he was fighting his own demons, but I don't think he was.

Well, I mean, I actually don't know. I mean, he was caught off guard by it. Yeah. Oh, he definitely he was very surprised when it all went down. And that seemed authentic from what I could tell. I mean, what I find interesting is that I can speak like personally from those two scenarios that I said that looking back, it was never a relationship like, you know, we can all talk about stuff and whatever with those guys, it was never a relationship where I really opened up about much to be honest. It was like all on the surface stuff. So and I definitely didn't confide anything. They confided things in me probably because of that false sense of security. But I never like really went into anything. So that's why I was like curious, like if

Martin had that relationship with him sometimes, where he did open up, because if that was the case, then it kind of makes it seem like there's a little bit of like a, you know, cost benefit thing between them. But if it's all just like wolf pussy, and then every once in a while, hey, I can't afford something. Sorry, man. Oh, it's all good. Then it's like, I don't know, it's tough. But then obviously, it's on Martin as an adult to speak up if he wants to be treated a certain way. So yeah, man, I don't know. I mean, what did you determine after all this? Yeah, I mean, I think that you kind of hit the nail on the head there as far as it probably was detrimental to Martin, but he never said anything. Richie thinks he's doing a good thing.

So there's no one that's really the asshole here. But it definitely had a bad effect on Martin, right? But I don't think it's right to vilify incognito, though, because he's he's not coming from a place of I'm trying to fuck with this guy. He's actually thinking he's doing a good thing. So I don't think there's any assholes here. I think it's just one of those weird situations. Right. And I do hate the media because it's like, you know, we've all said stupid shit. You know, I mean, the president has said grab grab women by the pussy and he gets a pass for that, right? So people say stupid shit. And what people forget nowadays, it's context, right? It's intention and context. So if Richie could say something shitty, and we

all can agree that it's shitty. But if he believes based on the environment that was created, that he is being funny or supportive, well, then that sort of manipulates the intention. And so we vilify people because we're like, oh, you shouldn't have said this thing eight years ago. But it's like, who was that said to? And what was the intention? Because if you're trying to be a prick, then yeah, let's fucking take matters into our own hands and ruin your life. But if you're trying to be funny or stupid or, you know, whatever it is, and you don't mean any harm, shit, man, like society is pretty rough on that nowadays. Yeah. And I think like a point to bid on that is some people would say that like, oh, the the culture of the locker room is the real problem, right? Because it fosters

this type of like, it fosters incognito thinking he's doing the right thing. But I don't even think I agree with that because I'm sure there's plenty of players that find this shit funny and that are like, all right, incognito likes me because he's fucking around with me, you know, like, just because one person took it hurtfully, doesn't mean that everyone else wasn't. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's true. And it's like, if the if if he thinks it, you know, his feelings are hurt, so they, they, they remove that from everybody. Why does 10 people on one side and three people on the other, why do three outweigh the fun quote unquote they're having? I mean, I can agree that, hey, she has a wolf, let's see, it's probably not the best thing to say.

That's funny. Funny. You know, someone would be like, I wish incognito called my sister a squirt. But yeah, that that's a language that some people, you know, it is what it is. So now I'm going to determine I'm so high and mighty that I'm going to determine what people shouldn't shouldn't say and when they should say it. That seems insane. Yeah, I think his parents had a lot to do with this too. Because that I don't know, I don't know how they got a hold of like the voicemail stuff. But I know that there was transcripts between Martin and his parents. And the way he talked to them was like night and day to the way he was texting with Richie. Like he was using like, you know, some some pretty like his language that was like vocabulary that was for like, you know,

term papers when you're talking exactly talking to his parents, you know, talking about all this stuff and like being like, you know, addressing his emotions pretty thoroughly. But then with incognito, he's one quote I have here is I'm not going to make it to dinner. I'm shitting chocolate pudding every 10 minutes, you know, he's just trying to be funny, but he can't really he doesn't he didn't seem like he could he didn't have the same humor. He was trying at times, but he didn't quite hit the mark most of it. I mean, the interesting thing is that like, because I don't remember the timeline, but obviously awareness across the board has happened the last 10 years. And I think, for the most part, I'm a positive. So when these situations happen, I think people

have a little bit more tools or support where if something is bothering you or whatever, hopefully they're you're you feel comfortable enough where you can come out and talk about this stuff. But I mean, wasn't this when this came out, when this came out, it wasn't like, extremely talked about, right? Like, wasn't this like sort of opening up the discussion like nationwide? On like bullying? Yeah. So what? Yeah, for sure. So I mean, that's interesting, because I think, you know, the conversation has grown since then, which I think is a plus throughout all this, even though their situation didn't turn out so well. I don't know, what do you guys think about

seeing that in sports and sort of the discussions that it's opened up over time? Well, bullying specifically? Yeah, I mean, I guess overall, in general, but yeah, but bullying and that that environment. Yeah, I mean, I've been in a lot of locker rooms. And I think like they're a good locker room has balance, right? So you have people like Richie, which are great. But then you also have people that are like a Matthew Slade looking at yeah, looking out like more like emotionally intuitive people that are looking out for people like this. And that are leaders too, that are respected, that can be like, that can check Richie for Martin be like, hey, listen, fuck you, you're such a

Neanderthal, right? And Richie would probably be like, yeah, I know. But then that also makes it feel like Martin's being protected by someone else in the locker room, right? So you have to have both ends of the spectrum to give it more balance. Yeah. So did you just kind of deteriorate to Greg? Yeah, so as far as like where it went from there. Obviously, so Martin, he, you know, never really made it back into the league. He like, you know, was on a couple teams didn't really make an impact. And I think he was gone within like three years he was retired. Incognito has had his obviously documented issues since then there was like videos of him Ferrari or Lamborghini or something with a baseball bat. Yeah, he's

definitely got his own mental health issues. And he's been pretty forward about it too. He's talked about it in the media as far as like, listen, I battle all the time with my anger and mental health. Martin interesting, interesting, Martin, maybe fairly recently put up an Instagram post with like a picture of a gun and bullets and like tagged his high school and like said something about like bullies will get what's coming to him or something like that. He tagged some of the dolphins players too, didn't he? I think so. Yeah. What? Yeah. So it sounds like he's not quite over it. Oh, here I have it. Yeah. So it's Instagram post. It's a picture of a shotgun on a bed with a bunch of like shells around it. And he tagged James Dunleavy,

TJ Taylor, 68 incognito and Mike Pouncy. And hashtags are Harvard Westlake in Miami Dolphins. I'm assuming the Harvard Westlake is his high school. And the quote is when you're a bully victim and a coward, your options are suicide or revenge. Yikes. So I guess that explains the relationship a little bit with some time passing. So that's the, I mean, that's the coward thing we were talking about where it's probably a little bit more passive in that relationship. So it might kind of keep me on something. Yeah. Posted, Andy. February 22nd. It doesn't tell me what year. Incognito is still playing, by the way. I looked it up. I thought it was done. Nope, plays with the Raiders. No kidding. He got drafted in ways in 2005, Greg, 15 years.

Yeah. Pretty long. Jesus. Yeah, I think he's a good player. That's probably why. So you want to hear some of that. Hang on, hang on. There's more to this. Earlier, Los Angeles Police Department detective Peter Dumontis testified that Martin's web surfing on February 9th showed he pulled up a story about incognito just hours before ordering the shotgun from American gunworks. Whoa. So I think this got him into legal trouble. I think he got arrested for all this. Yeah, I heard that. I mean, so I guess that, you know, at least it did open up discussion so that people can talk about this stuff. Because also, I mean, unless you feel threatened, you should definitely

tell somebody, but there's no point in being in a relationship if you don't want to be in it and you're afraid to be in it anyway. So it's easier said than done, but hopefully it helps, you know, at least give us some tools and I don't know, you know, what measures we're taking since then, but that like can help people with that. All right. And it probably makes people think, hey, is this all in fun? You know, if they have that type of relationship, it probably made them at least think about it and be like, this guy's kind of quiet. He might be, you know, a similar situation to Jonathan Martin. I should probably like check and make sure. Yeah. And it's also like, you can think of bullying as like,

it's black and white bullying is bad, you know, right? And I'm sure there are cases where bullying is black and white where the kid says, stop and you keep doing it. And that's bullying. But this clearly highlights that it's a very gray area in the pack impact of Jonathan for, I mean, years, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's 2019. Now, Jesus Christ. Yeah. 15 years later, he's still feeling the effects of it. And I think part of that's also the media coverage you got. Oh, I agree. So you want to hear some of the funny quotes from this? Yeah, you have to brighten this up to end it here. So one of them like Martin's kind of like giving him crap for something. And Richie says,

oh, I'm sorry, I have puss swinging from my nuts. Yeah. Well, that's an image. Yeah. Richie recounting the previous night, I got the worst hand job ever. My ween is so chafed right now. Oh, my God. My ween. W E I N. Oh, I was gonna ask you how you spelled it. No, yeah. Weiner. I would have bet money on double E's. Yeah. My ween. He started spelling weiner and just couldn't thought it was cool without the ER. It doesn't get up. I'm gonna say that incognito probably thought the word was cooler without the ER as well. Hey, just misspell it because there's not a spell. And to be fair, it's he was probably like a weiner that's childish. I'm gonna call him a ween. So chafed right now. Worst hand job ever. Two stars.

There was a lot of talk about prostitutes too, which I guess is fairly common in Miami. Like they'd be like, oh, you're going to this bar or like how was it there? And they're like, God, now it's all prostitutes. Don't bother coming. Yeah. So Martin doesn't like prostitutes. Richie, can you guess? I guess he has less of a problem. Yeah. Byron says, no, I'm grossed out by prostitutes to which Richie says, haha, you cunt, this strippers who go the extra mile. Oh, man. Oh, Richie. And then the last one I had pulled up was Richie saying, yo, I got those chicks from last night lined up. Let's go eat with them and bang their mouths. That shouldn't be funny. Okay. That's so funny. Who knows? Wine in and dining, baby.

Let's go with them and bang their mouths. That's your nickname. That one, I don't know. I feel like that might be our sign off. No, wait a minute. What about like, thanks for listening. Don't forget to bang their mouths. Hey, this is awful. What about, do you guys think that this was going on in the Patriots at all? Like just by any type of thing that you might have heard over time? Like, do you remember seeing anything like this coming from the Patriots side of things? I would think it's a more professional locker room. I hear guys like Vrable, right? We're now, like, he's like, long gone from the Patriots, but, you know, he's doing interviews, talking about cutting off his dick and laughing about it and whatever. And again, it's not malicious. It's

just like, you know, some bullshit stuff. Right. So if you put it in a locker room with, say, somebody who might not like that kind of stuff, and that obviously Vrable always came off as like extremely professional, but I'm just saying, I don't know if there were whispers coming from like anywhere else that I can remember or that if you guys can think of any. What year was Gronk drafted? 2011. The alternate universe. 2010. Incognito and Gronk on the same team in the same locker room. They would get a lot. 2010, I don't know. Incognito on the bills in 2010, because he went from the dolphins to the bills, right?

Oh, that's right. Yeah. And the bills like passed on Gronk. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, do you guys have any opinions on this stuff? I've been kind of talking about this stuff by Andy. I mean, we grew up together. Did you encounter some of this stuff? Because I know we were both quiet. I obviously developed a little bit of a tongue as we got older, but I don't know if you had any or how was your childhood, man? I was never big enough to be able to talk back to people. So I just had to make jokes out of it all. So I got really good at the self-deprecating humor very quickly, because I was super annoying as a child and people wanted to beat me up.

And so I would ask them to schedule it, please, because I had so many people who wanted to beat me up that I would see if I could fit them in. And that seemed to diffuse the situation in middle school. So you had jokes written? You were already writing jokes with that name? Oh, off the top of my head, bud. That got me out of a couple. So high school was pretty good, then? No. Did we ever talk about this stuff? I feel like forever, but did we open up about this shit? I don't think so. Well, I think my defense tactic in high school was to be seen as a Columbine kid. Well, yeah, you wrote me into that crazy nonsense. I don't even know what you're talking about. You scared me sometimes, man. Yeah, you know, I had to keep you on your toes.

But yeah, so everybody and I would kind of play that up a little bit whenever things, the heat got a little too hot. Wait, and why did you do that, you think? That was a defense mechanism. But what did that accomplish? Preventing me from being bullied more than I was. Oh, you're trying to intimidate? Yeah, I suppose in my own strange way. Yes. Yeah, so I don't know. I mean, I guess we didn't really talk about this stuff. I can't remember having these conversations with you. Maybe we just weren't like, you know, emotionally there. Oh, yeah, no, we definitely weren't. We were too busy wondering what it would be like to hold a girl's hand. We were real fucking cool in high school. All right. Which is how you get to be on the

Page's dynasty podcast. So the host podcast is you have a real fucking shitty upbringing when it comes to opposite sex. I don't know that backpack. Yeah, it was pretty fucking cool, though. Right. A little spiky backpack. Well, that was part of the whole Columbine look. I feel like I have that too, if you remember. That's not a good thing to throw around, Mr. I'm not saying I'm going to do anything, but I use that to my advantage that it had happened. And everybody, I didn't bring it up on myself. It's just as soon as it happened, everybody kind of slowly turned and looked at me and thought, did you feel like everyone thought that or looking back or did they actually think that? What do you think? It's a good point, Mike.

It was probably a bit of both. I don't think that's going to happen when Columbine happened. What grade were you in? I don't know. That feels about right. Yeah. In high school? Yeah. When was that? That was April 20, 1999. So I think we would have just been, no, because we graduated in 01. So yeah, probably sophomore, maybe junior, give or take. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. But I'm also wondering why that is, because obviously, like, you know, and I don't know if everybody goes through this, but you know, you obviously felt that I felt different things as well. And maybe it was perception, I don't know, because like I said, as a 16, 17-year-old kid or even younger, I'm not emotionally involved enough to probably process anything. But I also

felt like until I got older, and like I said, I could maybe develop a sense of humor and laugh at things, I felt like things were a little bit harder before that happened. And maybe like you said, it's a defense mechanism where you learn how to just laugh things off and then everything becomes a little bit better, I think. But because I remember like getting into lots of fights when I was younger. And I mean, you may have prevented a couple. Yeah, using my wit. Right. Yeah. Actually, one time you grabbed me and sat me down. And it was like, this is not the one to do. And I was like, all right. You gave me good spanking. Right. Yeah. Well, that was after one of such good friends. Right. But yeah, so I'm wondering like, is that perception or because I feel like if you're quiet,

right, then people might think that's a little weird or off-putting. And then they might try to reach out in however way they feel most comfortable, right? And that can sometimes feel like being, you know, demeaning or whatever. But I mean, you guys are younger. Did you encounter this? Or was a different environment when you guys were growing up? Yeah, I have one from either side of the table here. Because I was thinking about it of like, one, have I ever bullied someone? And two, have I ever been bullied? That's also a very good point. Yeah. So from the have I bullied thing, there was one thing that came to mind of at UNH, I was on a soccer team. And so this may be like my junior or senior year. When you first come there, we all shower together, which is very like

strange for a lot of the freshmen, because they show up and they've never had to shower around, you know, a team, which can be weird at first. Like you get over it within like a month. And it's after that, it's not a huge deal at all. But so to like break the ice, I used to like, kind of be like in your face about it, you know, just be like, you know, in my mind, I was like, just to be like, Hey, this isn't a big deal. You know, we all got dicks, let's swing them around. And I remember there was one kid who showed up who was quiet. That was the locker next to me. And I used to like do the aggressive like under the leg, like trying of my nuts, looking him in the eye. And like, I always thought he thought it was funny, but looking back, I'm

like, maybe that wasn't the right thing to do. You know, I mean, he ended up, I think he was a good player. So I think he ended up like finding his way pretty easily. But still, if he hadn't been a good player, I think, you know, it could have been easily gone the other way. So I think he was he was comfortable by the time I left for sure. But those first few months, if I had to do it again, I might have approached it a little differently. That's fair. What about the other side? Yeah, I was gonna ask that. Oh, yeah. So the other side was when I was younger, I was kind of like, you guys are a lot quieter, maybe like sophomore year in high school. And there was this kid that was kind of like he was like the kid I was always getting in trouble in high school,

he used to get suspended all the time. And I don't know how he like got me in his sights, but he used to just fuck with me all the time. And like, there's nothing really that malicious, but one time we like used to sit next to each other in English class is my sophomore year in high school. And I got called after class and the teacher was like, so some serious, I want to discuss with you, she's like someone wrote on one of the desks, Greg Brown is a big smelly N word with AIDS. And immediately I was like, Oh, it's him. There's no fucking way it's not him. There's the type of shit you do. And I was just like, yeah, I have no idea why that would happen. And then I had to like go and talk to the fucking Guinness counselor or everything. But when I saw

and I was like, dude, what the fuck, man? And he was like, yeah, it's funny, right? And I was like, Oh, really? But like, it never got like malicious. And I never felt like, I don't know, he was like that to everybody. And he was kind of like a fuck up. So like, he wasn't really in a position of power because he was just he was just a fuck. Yeah, just lashing out indiscriminately. Yeah, exactly. So that was my yeah, I mean, that's a good point too. There's like a couple of guys. Once I started viewing things a little differently. And you know, you gain a little bit more social and emotional awareness, obviously, as you get older, you get experiences. But there were a lot of guys that had started out contentious. But because I had a different perspective on a lot of times, like,

I ended up like becoming friends with those people. And it was actually like a real friendship. And you realize that sometimes it's a communication tactic that they want to reach out. And they don't know how and they're trying to be funny, like you're saying about incognito. And, you know, sometimes it comes from a place that they're, you know, something in their life is not quite right, maybe, and it's manifesting in this way, not that it absolves anybody from from acting like that. But I also hate how I have to like, I feel like in talking about this stuff, like I was bullied, I was probably a bully too. We're all fucking dickheads. But like, as we're talking about this, I find myself dancing around words and I make sure I'm like, it's bullshit. Like,

most people nowadays don't talk like this. But I think it's good to have this discussion because it's not just so bland or black and white. Yes. Yeah. It's like, it is murky and everyone has their own experiences. And if everybody just sat down and was like, Oh, yeah, I didn't know I was bullying or yeah, I was bullying because of this, like you're saying like, you might have done some shit that now you're like, fuck, that was pretty stupid of me. You can get up to it, you know? Yeah. I've had a coworker called me relentless. Which is like, I think incredibly apt. Like he's like, you're relentless like when you want to work and like you have a goal in mind, you're relentless with that, but you're also relentless

when you like want to play. Yeah. We would have a bunch of the same shirts just because work gives us a bunch of free shit and it would match just like randomly and I would love it and he would hate it. So I would always try to match him. I'd bring like extra shirts to work. Got it. I go chage, right? And he started a Christmas party with his now wife and he got matching ones. He's like Christmas ones there and I found out which ones and I went to Target and I bought one. And then like to my credit, he's like, dude, don't wear that. And I was like, all right, I get that. Like I'm sure like he, you know, in like you can compare that to Richie and Cognito and Jonathan Martin and he had the wear with all the big Steve. Like I know you

should think this is funny and like it doesn't really bug me that much. But if you did that, that would piss me off. And I was like, all right, but I got you. I'm not going to do that because we're friends, but I could see, you know, me, I'm sure I've taken it too far at some point in my life. Oh yeah, I'm sure I have to. Yeah, I can be relentless in that too. I get that talk often from even my wife where she just apparently I'm like a puppy where as soon as if I, if I'm home first and she comes home from work, I just like, I'm sitting there waiting by the door for her. So just shower her with affection when all she needs is to be like to have a minute and I don't do that. I'd also think that I

I'm probably not not just me, but I have some like social interaction issues, maybe. I figured out this guy and we can have heart to hearts. I don't see them for you. You're good to a party. How many times is this guy going to throw me into the bus to get a laugh? Every time. I'll throw anybody under. No, especially me. It's everybody. I just know more things. That's what it is. You're lucky that I do value our friendship and I do think you're a friend.

But I could change it any minute. I'll keep that in mind. Fair enough. Let's keep an open dialogue. Yeah, but like you were saying, Mike, when I was the quiet kid in high school and so because of that, everybody thought I was the Columbine kid, but it wasn't just because I was quiet. It was because I was socially awkward as well. So I think to your point when they would come and try talk to me and try to open me up, I didn't know how to interact with them because I didn't know how to interact with anybody. So I was I would come off as strange to people I didn't know. I probably still come off as strange people. I do know, but they understand that I'm strange and that's just how I am. So they look past it.

But I think those sorts of things in high school especially get you a bit of a reputation. Yeah, and I think it's like age is a lot to do with that too. You've come into your own a lot now. You understand who you are. You understand what kind of people you want to interact with. Whereas at that age, you're like hormones are flying. You're learning on the fly how to interact with people. You're trying to finger bang. You don't know, you know, you don't know what's going on. So you just try not to get bad hit jobs that your ween. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like all that shit's going on. It's hard to like take a step back and be like, all right, how is this affecting other people? Because all you can think about is yourself.

Absolutely. True. And there's so many like people in one location, especially at that young of an age where let's say you have like a well intentioned teacher that's got like 35 kids are running around like maniacs. That's tough for anybody. Oh, yeah. Things are gonna slip through the cracks. Exactly, for sure. I think it's like inherent in just, you know, you're trying to find it's that pack mentality, unfortunately, where you're trying to find people that you can gravitate towards so that you don't feel alone. And sometimes, you know, there's fallout with that. And I think we're trying to figure it out. But yeah, it's it's a it's insane when you're younger. And even to your point earlier, Mike, I mean, I think there's

a ton of pressure to like fit in to be a part of that pack. And then as you get older, you're like, wait a minute, I'm not like that. I'm just gonna be me. Yeah, guys, I think we just solved the school shooting problem in the US. We just talk about football, right? Yeah. I don't know if we can do another episode after this. Yeah, Richie and Cognito is really maybe we'll tackle cancer next. I'd rather not. Yeah, that one seems black and white. All right, maybe football then. All right, yeah. With a little football or not football. Yeah, whole podcast episode with no football or not football. I don't know how I feel about that.

Not the whole thing. We got to we got to spread it out. There's only so much knowledge I can take. Was that football or not football? I don't know, dude. I see what you think. Oh, yeah, I'll give you some knowledge, buddy. Yeah, some knowledge. Yeah, I see what you're all right. That's very wolf knowledge. If anybody out there got anything from this episode, fantastic. And if not, we strongly apologize for everything we don't think don't know anything that we said. We're not professional hands. And as Mama Brown said at the beginning of this episode, we're very naughty boys. So it's well intentioned across the board. So God bless or not. God bless.