PBD Podcast - "First Internet Artist" - M.I.A: From Refugee to Rebel, Paper Planes, and Beefing With Oprah

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Starting point is 00:00:28 Haven't had sleep, but that's usually a good thing. OK. It means there won't be words wasted. You know, like... There won't be words wasted. You got very strong opinions. There's an element of fearlessness with you. You're going to perform Super Bowl with Madonna because you gave them the bird. The bird. Right. Yeah it was 16.6. How could they justify 16.6

Starting point is 00:00:51 million dollar lawsuit? They always knew I was a bit of a renegade and I was I was the outsider. Rebel with a cause where you're not willing to back down to some of the most powerful people that try to bully you. I had a different purpose in the in the industry. Is it because you didn't need them? 100%. I got it. Coming from nowhere, right in the thick of a civil war,

Starting point is 00:01:14 aspiring to be a musician was just completely outside of the community. My entire family lived in that room. Everywhere you went to, you turn on the radio, it's your music. I felt I was an imposter. It's only after I discovered that my name meant the goddess of music and Hinduism. Jay-Z, he signed you everywhere.

Starting point is 00:01:34 Well, he managed me. So you don't put Drake in the authentic category? No, I put him in the business category. How about Taylor Swift? Also business or? Even Oprah, like I had beef with and it's just pretty intense. When did you know you were different? I don't know, I guess some day one. So if you make it through this entire podcast, if you do, you will say this was

Starting point is 00:01:59 one of the most intense podcasts I've done in a long time. Emotional, there was friction at one point. We talked about the son of one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful family in the music industry, whom she had a son with. It gets very uncomfortable. Almost you'll get a feeling that there's a walk-in on eggshells. I'm not a mother, but if you don't know who she is, Maya, you know her music. She was at the top of the music space, JZ, Jimmy Iovine. You got all of these people she was a part of. And we talked about the dark side of the music industry. Many of you, you'll sit there and say,

Starting point is 00:02:35 wow, that was very interesting to say the least. But I can tell you, I enjoyed talking to her. Once we started getting deep, it was magic from there till the end of the podcast. So having said that, enjoy the podcast with Maya. So, do you remember the song Paper Planes? Matter of fact, I was just humming it in my own way of doing it and the actual artist is in the house. Maya was criticizing me for not being thorough and clear enough for her to know that I'm

Starting point is 00:03:30 humming to her song, which by the way, this is what it is. I'm upstairs. My wife says, babe, why are you listening to the paper planes? She says, do you know one time she performed when she was pregnant? I used to listen to her song all the time. I said, babe, it's the next podcast, babe. What are you talking about? Anyways, so if you know the song, 152 million people, I think, watched one time in 20, I don't know what the year was, Super Bowl, halftime herself, you know, Maya, Madonna, if I'm not mistaken, went number four and then she had another one, I think,

Starting point is 00:04:01 went number one with Travis Scott, I think in 2020, if I'm not mistaken. There's a bunch of things we're going to talk about. We have her in the flesh today, the one and only Maya. How are you doing? Maya Huffington How are you? Dr. Fernando Bailes I am good. Maya Huffington I'm good, I'm good. Dr. Fernando Bailes So lots of travel for you, right?

Starting point is 00:04:17 You're in between traveling all over the world. Maya Huffington Yes. I'm coming in from Toronto, Canada. It was nice to dip in and check out what's happening there and going to Europe tonight. Favorite city. You've been all over it. What's your favorite city? What do you actually enjoy to go because of food, whatever may be? maybe? Um, hmm. Obviously, Asia is up there for food and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:04:50 But I just recently for the first time in my life went to Tbilisi in Georgia. Tbilisi? Yeah, and Tbilisi, I did a show there and I just loved that city. But they just, they had a pretty good showing in their tournament in Euro Cup. Exactly, I was there that day. Were you really? Yeah. Oh, it was like, are you kidding me?

Starting point is 00:05:10 Everybody's like, first of all, where is Georgia? Secondly, why are they so good in soccer? They had a good turnout. Yeah. It was a brilliant day. My show was on the same day. It was just very beautiful. I had a very nice experience.

Starting point is 00:05:21 So Maya, when did you know? Because I read all this stuff about you, right? I mean, one, you got very strong opinions, right? There's an element of fearlessness with you, right? There's an element of creativity with you. There's an element of rebel with a cause in you. Strong convictions where you're not willing to back down to some of the most powerful people that try to bully you. When did you know you were different than everybody else? Yeah, I guess, I don't know, I guess I knew from day one. From day one, in the womb.

Starting point is 00:06:05 I don't know. I guess I knew from day one from day one and the one I Think You know when I was a teenager growing up and stuff I knew I was different because I was always interested in things going on in the world So, you know Sometimes I'd put it down to my, me getting in trouble, I put it down to ignorance, like not knowing how the world works, and you say what you think, and then you get in trouble, then you find out how the world works, you know. But I guess I do think, thinking back when I was younger, I was always interested in and people would always find that I had that tinge where it could go serious pretty quick,

Starting point is 00:06:50 you know, in the middle of a club. And people would be like, you're a party people. But at the same time, I was very much into music and having a good time and everything. But I always did have that like social. If I knew you were when we were 12, 13, 14 years old would I know that you're gonna end up in a music business? Like definitely not. So I was a refugee when I came to England at 10 and I was on a council flat and there was obviously

Starting point is 00:07:16 all kinds of social issues in the 80s going on in England with racism and things like that and racism and things like that and I remember the first like group of friends I had on the council flat I asked them I was like so what is the best thing to be in this country and everyone said pop star because Madonna was so huge and then I was like oh what is that you know because we don't in in Asian continent like India or Sri Lanka or anywhere, we don't have a thing called a pop star, you know, you don't have individual individualism. So it's never happened. You have an industry that has music built into the film industry. So actors sang songs, but the songs were

Starting point is 00:08:04 often sung by playback singers who nobody knew they were very like invisible you know and that's where that's in that sense a Indian music okay I remember one song I'm gonna butcher it as well so again be ready yeah go down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down Do you remember that song or no? There was an Indian movie. Yeah, exactly. So I don't know that song.

Starting point is 00:08:29 And I could be like a thousand songs. This is 242, guys. This is 242. But it was a movie we would watch. I wish I could find this movie for you. I could find the song and play it. And you'll get it when I play it for you. But it was a famous Indian movie where it was always

Starting point is 00:08:44 a drama and love and romance and there was some weird stories too, but it was always singing. Yeah, the soundtracks were built in and your hits were built in and then the hits would just be the video clip of the actor and the actress acting out the song. but the person who really wrote that song or sang that song was, you know, nobody knew. Okay, I found it. I found the song. Oh, what is it?

Starting point is 00:09:14 Icchacadana, bichacadana. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You now know what song it is? I do, it's in Hindi, but yes. All right, that's the best I can do for you. But go ahead, you were saying, you know you come to London Hey pop stars the best thing to be in 1985 I was like, oh, what is that? And then you know, obviously I

Starting point is 00:09:36 I was really into music and you know And then yeah, I guess it's's weird I ended up being that. You know, they didn't say politician, whereas I guess in Sri Lanka when I was growing up, you'd think the best thing to be was a politician or a doctor, you know. But in England in 1985, everybody was like, oh, if you're in the West,

Starting point is 00:10:01 the best thing to be is a pop star. And then I became one, but yeah. And not just any pop star. I mean, at one point, like you're in the West, the best thing to be is a pop star. And then I became one. And not just any pop star. I mean, at one point, like you were the main, you know, song they were playing at every club, everywhere you went to. You turn on the radio, it's your music. It's everywhere. And even to the point where you got in

Starting point is 00:10:22 with the right folks at one point, Jay-Z, you guys, he signed you, you were with him, and then you're everywhere. Well, he managed me. He managed you. Yeah, I signed with Interscope Records, with Jimmy Iovine. Got it. Yeah. What was that experience like?

Starting point is 00:10:41 The music industry, you hear a lot of different things. I had Suge Knight call me the other day from jail. We did a podcast together for an hour and a half. like is the music industry you hear a lot of different things I had shook night call me the other day from jail we did A podcast together for an hour and a half it was six or seven collect calls when he called in and I said You know how ugly is the industry? Okay? How is it and he's dropping all these names? You know you got to go look up Lucian Grange and go look up you know Lily Leroy Leroy Cohen or go look up this guy and go look up that guy and and then I said Lior Cohen right and I said so listen all these stories with Diddy and

Starting point is 00:11:11 what we're reading about I mean the young boys Usher he says you think one day you wake up and you do stuff like that the young man that stuff is taught you don't just one day wake up and do it he learned how to do that so who taught him he says Clive Davis taught him how to do that now this this is Suge Knight saying it on the podcast. I'm like, whoa, I mean, that's a pretty strong, you know, but you hear weird things about the music industry and you got as deep into the music industry as possible, even dated one of the most powerful men, the CEO of Warner Music, the son you were dating, right? I think Edgar's son, Ben, if I'm not mistaken. How true is it when we, who are not in the industry, when we read stories about how dark and how powerful and how

Starting point is 00:11:51 political is it, how real is that versus, yeah, it's probably mostly fiction? Hmm, I have different ways of looking at it. My experience of the industry is, I came through an independent Excel records, which is run by Richard Russell. He took a chance on me and signed me. Jimmy upstreamed me to Interscope I think a year later and I don't know, my plight is slightly different because I broke on the internet. So I was the first artist. Like if I release songs now, or if I came out now, I would not be here, you know?

Starting point is 00:12:50 It would never happen. But because I released music right on the cusp of internet jumping off, even though I didn't tick all the boxes, I ticked all the boxes on the internet. And those fans, so they downloaded my first song and album like a million times on the internet that record execs couldn't really ignore it. And then Jimmy kind of used me to, and so did Richard Russell, he's written books and been on the radio saying this, saying, you know, he used me as the template to digitize his business.

Starting point is 00:13:33 So before that, it was like Shug Knight era and you're like talking about record sales and this and this and this. And then when I came out, it was the first time the record labels turned to digital you know so I had a different purpose in the in the industry so I never saw the things but also I think I was left alone where I didn't have to you know, compromise anything or have messages that I don't believe in and things like that. They always knew I was a bit of a renegade and I was always out. I was the outsider, you know, and I think- Is it because you didn't need them?

Starting point is 00:14:17 Yeah, 100%. Like there's an element- 100%. I got it. So versus- So I was more like a trailblazer even for them. Like Jimmy would have me in the office and you know, fire loads of people and hire loads of people and have me at the table while he did it, saying, she's the future of music, you know. And so I got, I think I just would fly in and out. And I was also not very like a present in America when I made the music. It was like very, you know, I would have my own producers, you know, I would work with friends and I would

Starting point is 00:14:54 work with people abroad. And so I never really spent time in the industry. And also, I didn't make money like the way that other artists made money, you know. And also I didn't aspire to do that, so I didn't need to please anyone and go along with anything and you know what I mean? I think I was very protected by that. But on the other hand, what I want to say is reflecting back on it, in the beginning I felt like, you know, musically I was an imposter, you know, and that was the message of, you know, when you're really just coming from nowhere and in my community, like I'm in Sri Lanka and Tamil, they've never been musicians, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:45 and we were right in the thick of a civil war. And aspiring to be a musician was just completely outside of the community, you know, so I didn't also have anyone to call and be like, Hey, how was it for you? You know, it was like a very brand new thing. It was brand new for the East and it was brand new for the West. And so people just left me alone. But saying that the industry, what the industry gave me was that they put me somewhere, you know, that I was still able to make the work I

Starting point is 00:16:25 wanted to make and explore myself as an artist, which then revealed like, it's only after I got out of my album deals and decided, yeah, I'm going to take time out of music, I discovered that my name meant the goddess of music in Hinduism. But before I didn't know that, and I did feel like I was always like an imposter, like I had the imposter syndrome and I was like, Oh, what, you know, this is crazy. This is so by accident and by chance, I'm a musician. Because you thought you're a regular person.

Starting point is 00:17:00 I, yes, and I, and I really thought like, you know, I was saying that I didn't think that I was, you know, I thought I was like, tone deaf. And I wasn't musically studied. My parents never took me to music lessons. You know, I never trained in anything. I didn't even know how to use the software. And it was, you you know and I would just make a song and everyone would love it and it was so weird it would take me like an hour to write like Bad Girls probably took I wrote that in Miami by the way yeah like we wrote Bad Girls in probably like an hour or two you know and so everything felt like super like fluky but looking back on it I was like no it was meant to happen it was a destiny you know if God did that and already chose this is what I was gonna do the industry did allow me and hear that and take it and put me there you

Starting point is 00:17:58 know like there there were people that tried to shut it down a lot. I think I had a lot of that going on. So I do think that in the industry, so when I think back on it, I think there are good people in it as well. There are bad people and then there's good people. Obviously the bad ones are in power, but that's with anything, you know. And then they would censor and push you down

Starting point is 00:18:32 and keep all the good ones down, you know, while the bad ones rise to the top and become more powerful. And that, I think, is in every industry, you know. You think that's in every industry? Well, don't you think like that? That's definitely happened in the last. I think things are going to turn. I think universe or God will find a way to balance things out always.

Starting point is 00:18:58 But definitely I think when it gets to being homogenized and the monopolies Definitely, I think when it gets to being homogenized and the monopolies begin to happen and you're talking like hundreds of millions of dollars or billions of dollars, yeah, you have to be pretty ruthless to get to the top, you know, and that's like how that happens. Did you, by the way, when you were saying music, you would upload it back in the days, are you talking MySpace? Because MySpace was all about music. No, it was even before about music even before that like limewire days. Oh, wow. Got it Yeah, got it. Did you have any? Limewire that's even pre napster, right? That's not even uh, yeah, so it was like limewire napster

Starting point is 00:19:38 It was limewire napster and then myspace limewire napster and then myspace Well, you weren't able to monetize off of Napster though, right? Napster was just nothing. Nothing. I can't even monetize off like YouTube really because YouTube happened, I happened in 2005, YouTube happened in 2006, and you know, it was pretty like. Right.

Starting point is 00:20:02 But I'm definitely censored on there. So on this topic of when Jimmy Ivey sees you, it's like, hey, I can make music and whether you guys do anything or not, you can't control me, you're a little bit of a rebel, renegade, can't do anything. Did you then become a case study and were you duplicatable, were they can go and see?

Starting point is 00:20:23 100% obviously, yeah. So who else did they duplicate with your model with? Like if you were to say that person, it's all about that person, they did this with me, they did this with me, would you say like a Lady Gaga was a model after what you did or no, she's different? Yeah, she was always at my shows in the beginning. Before she was famous.

Starting point is 00:20:43 Yeah. She would come to my shows. Really? And she was on the same label, obviously. What was the interaction like when you would see her before the world? I didn't really, you know, I was like blitzing through the music industry.

Starting point is 00:20:57 I didn't really spend too much time hanging out because also like, you know, the war in Sri Lanka was coming to an end end so I always felt like I Wasn't there to party really, you know that there was always a serious element to my work where? It was you know, it was I had to keep so I didn't socialize a lot It's what I'm saying got Got it with anybody it doesn't matter whether it's Lady Gaga or anybody else. Yeah yeah okay I think I was just working I was on the grind you know I was working hard I traveled a lot and I think a lot was happening and because it was

Starting point is 00:21:38 happening for the first time I had to kind of man the situation in my head because there was no point person. You know, there's no, like, I think, you know, this is what I always say that if you were a rapper coming out in 2005, you could call up a rapper that happened in 1995 and say, hey, how was it for you? You know, or like 1985, and you had generations up in that point, but because there was nobody I could call, it was like you had to use a lot of your own brain power to stay in the game, I suppose. What would you say were some of the case studies

Starting point is 00:22:23 that they duplicated your model? I think it's even present now, like if you look at some of the case studies that they duplicated your model? I think it's even present now, like if you look at like some of the K-pop artists, like I think they've got a new artist called Lisa. She's just done a song. And yeah, they say that, like they're heavily influenced by hearing my music and... Maya, how long did the high last for you? Where I'm talking like, you know, it doesn't get bigger than Super Bowl, right? You're going to perform Super Bowl with Madonna,

Starting point is 00:22:55 you know, 150 plus million people watching. That's cream of the crop, right? Which I even think that led to a lawsuit, if I'm not mistaken, like a one and a half million dollar lawsuit, because you gave them the bird or what was the issue there? Right. Yeah I gave them the bird Then I got sued

Starting point is 00:23:18 Yeah, that's what happened that was 212 that was 212 yeah and What now? Why do they sue you for giving the bird because Janet gave more than a bird Then I don't know if she got sued. She was celebrated. What's the difference? So that's the image where you did that and that's what got the NFL to sue you Okay, and then apparently that one and a half turned into even more afterwards right Yeah, it was 16.6. How could they justify a 16.6 million dollar lawsuit?

Starting point is 00:23:50 I know. What ended up happening to that? Did that just get dismissed? And yeah, luckily, well, I'm not supposed to talk about it. That was the that was the thing. They wanted me to apologize and I said no, because I thought that was the silly thing to be worked up over it.

Starting point is 00:24:10 And I said that I wanted to see the number of, because for Janet, like 500,000 people apparently wrote in to complain. And I was like, can I see how many people complained about my bird? And they told me it was 222. And I was like, that's just silly. You can't sue me over 222 people complaining.

Starting point is 00:24:37 I mean, especially if like 120 million people watched it, it doesn't make sense. But... Do you know if Janet ended up paying a fine or no? CBS fine, 550,000 dollars for Super Bowl incident. CBS 20 owned and operated station with a beach fine. Find the maximum amount for Janet Jackson's Super Bowl incident, 550. To go fromifty to sixteen million, that's a lot of, it's probably the most expensive middle finger. It's because I'm the bad girl. I was the bad girl. Not I am.

Starting point is 00:25:12 I was the bad girl. So in everyone's mind, it was like the other, you know, she's like invading America with the middle finger and we have to make an example out of her or something, you know? Got it. So how long did the high last? When you went in and the fast high life money coming in, success, fame, how long did that last? Well, they say that the Beatles wrote all their best songs in four years. So I knew I had about a four year window. I would say like that, you know, so like, maybe it actually lasted a bit longer than that because of 2005 to maybe 2013. And then I wanted to also spend more time being a mom,

Starting point is 00:26:12 and it wasn't, it didn't, it started feeling like it wasn't right to be everywhere and give such a, everywhere and give such a priority to my career. And yeah, so I think it was a combination of two things. It's like the Super Bowl happened, but also my kid was like three at the time. And it was important to like settle somewhere and put him in school and you know start kind of looking at it differently. Got it. Was it a was it like a sudden disconnect from everything or was it a you know gradual

Starting point is 00:27:00 distancing from the limelight? Okay, well, there was a moment when I signed with Rot Nation was, you know, I went into the custody battle zone and things, yeah, got difficult. I think that that album should have been better than it was. And it wasn't. And I think that's when I discovered how sort of connected everything was. And you know, you couldn't really bypass it, whether it didn't matter how great my songs were, or what what they were, you know, representing or how real it was or, you know, it, it, because before I was assumed all the artists that I like in music were always very authentic, you know, and, and I, and I always thought that music was about that. That there is like this commercial aspect where you had pop music, where you have 20 writers come in and make the most incredible pop song.

Starting point is 00:28:04 And it's a pop song that's specially written for the chart and it's a million dollar song and you had that but simultaneously you had very authentic artists, you know. And I felt like I was probably the last of that, you know. And then after that, the space for that kind of started to Deplete because this became such a tied-up thing, you know It's like it's like the arrow of Drake, you know and um You sure you don't put Drake in the authentic category No, I put him in the business category. But by then it all become business.

Starting point is 00:28:50 How about Taylor Swift? Also business or? I don't really know her history actually. Like I don't actually know where Taylor Swift comes from. Like if she actually is a songwriter and came for country music or whatever. I haven't studied. Taylor's history. Yeah, I haven't actually. from, like, if she actually is a songwriter and came for country music or whatever. I haven't studied. Taylor's history.

Starting point is 00:29:07 Yeah, I haven't actually. It's not, it's like we live in two different spheres, I suppose. But yeah, in the hip hop world, it was definitely like, it was already happening, you know, by 2000, 2008, when companies were buying up the, the way you'd sell tickets to concerts, the alcohol that sold at the concerts to the venue and then to the thing and then the marketing and then the blogs and the platform, like everything was being bought by one thing, you know. So that's also why I felt like maybe I was the last authentic thing that happened because I came at that time when internet was liberal, you know, or that it was free world, you know. And so the concept of blogs, the concept of internet downloads and the concept of social media

Starting point is 00:30:08 that was just free and designed for a purpose of actually communicating whatever people was into. And all of this was kind of fresh, you know. So I would say that it was all kind of tied in, but that's, it's kind of very interesting to think about it. It's like my window was probably the same window as the internet, you know? And then when it got tied up and sewn up and owned, it's like the things they get rid of is,

Starting point is 00:30:47 that sort of authenticity. Yeah, you said if I was today, you wouldn't know who I am. I wouldn't be here right now if I was today. Your timing was almost good because you were able to kind of almost create your own path of success. But you said, I asked you a question, I said, how dark and deceptive and is the music industry? You said there's a good and there's a bad, and a lot of times the most powerful people make it all the way to the top. Yeah, but see, I'm philosophical. You're right. That is a dark thing. But I think that

Starting point is 00:31:19 is in every industry. You think it is. You think it's in every industry. Do you think that's in the pharmaceutical industry? For sure, absolutely. Is it in the military industrial complex? Absolutely, for sure. Is it in social media world of like, you know, online companies and whatever? I think so. Is it in the banks? Yes, like it's banks? Yes, it is across the board. But a lot of it is for profit, which makes sense. The motive is profit.

Starting point is 00:31:51 Music sometimes, when you read, again, I'm not in it. I'm just purely a bystander that reads some of these stories sometimes. Music is, you hear about sometimes the abuse of talent or the taking advantage of the talent or the ruthless side of it where people are controlled and they're owned for many, many years to come and they better do this or else where on the business side, the big pharma side, the military industrial complex, I think that's a lobbyist. You got a lot of lobbying going on.

Starting point is 00:32:26 But see, mine was a political issue. So I don't put it to like, Jay-Z did this thing because I just saw them as they're all American artists. They have to do that to you. Because I was a political artist, you know, and so I feel like especially like supporting Julian Assange like that happened in 2010, like two years before the Super Bowl event. So when you have American companies using you as a template, but creating artists that they can benefit off that make a hundred times more money with your template. I did not, I wasn't offended

Starting point is 00:33:15 because of course that is what they will do. That's what is, that's just how it goes in the history of how that has happened. Did I read it correctly that, again, I'm trying to go based on some of the stuff I read about you, that how old is your son right now, by the way? He's 15. 15 years old. Okay.

Starting point is 00:33:40 Is he with you? Do you see him? Mm-hmm. Okay. But there was an era where some things happened, right, where you couldn't see him for a good 10 years, if I'm not mistaken. No, no, no. No. So I was in Brooklyn, and I couldn't leave Brooklyn for, they tried to put like a restraining order while I was being managed by Jay-Z that said,

Starting point is 00:34:07 you know, you can't leave this jurisdiction for 15 years until he's 15. And or until he was, yeah. And so that I thought was weird because obviously I was known as a worldly global artist. So to restrict me like that is just, you know, that was, it was quite shattering, you know, to everything I was about. And so I went to court in Brooklyn, which was extremely frustrating because I was up against all major massive American power fighting it in the most American power city

Starting point is 00:35:01 with American lawyers. So, you know, I really felt like I had no chance, but I was also touring to support the court case and pay for it, you know, because it's New York lawyers. So yeah, I think that probably was a pretty dark time. But I won. I didn't win. We basically made an agreement that I move back to London with him. And so we both moved back to London and we lived there.

Starting point is 00:35:43 So I had him, though people do kind of, it is ambiguous on the internet where people say, Oh, you know, I lost custody or whatever, but no, I didn't. I went to London and I live with my son there and he went to school there and stuff. But then COVID happened. Then we kind of went through it again. But at that time, yeah, I was after that case, I was very much done with the music industry. You know, when it kind of gets to it, I couldn't separate out the personal and the professional because, yes, it was one thing. You work with a lot of powerful people in the music industry. I was just...

Starting point is 00:36:33 ...butting heads with a lot of powerful people without knowing... ...why I was put in that position. It's very interesting, like, if you... If you look at 15 years ago, the people that I was always doing that with, which was completely just quite random, the people who took offense to me and came for the confrontation or I had confrontations with 15 years later, they are the people that society is saying, oh, this is, you know, it's just one thing is 15 years ago, the story was different.

Starting point is 00:37:15 I was the bad person and they were the good people. And 15 years later, I felt like it's completely swapped. And all of those people Were all one thing is what I'm finding out, you know, whether that whether you because it was pretty much big news that I went to I had a conversation with Lady Gaga you know Then there was Jay-Z then there was you know Beyonce with BLM or then there was like this, then there was, you know, Beyonce with BLM, or then there was like this person, this person, this one, whatever corporation and all of these people

Starting point is 00:37:50 then feel like they're all in the same tribe, which was not visible 15 years ago to anybody. There was no podcast like this discussing things. Who ended up being more powerful than you thought today? Meaning back then but now... Even Oprah, like I had beef with. Like if you look at Oprah, it was like in 2009 when the Tamil genocide ended and I went to Oprah and she was my idol, you know, and I was like Oprah help, you know, like you have to bring more light to the situation of what's happening to the Tamils. And then the media blew up and they were like, MIA and Oprah is at war because, you know, Oprah called MIA terrorists and that was all over the news. And it was so. I'm like wow. I'm now I'm like at war with Oprah Winfrey

Starting point is 00:38:47 And it just happened at a random party. She called you a terrorist Yes, because she was like Yeah, there it is, you know and it's Why does she call you is this because of what because of why it was just because the time? Yeah, the Tamils were called, all Tamils were labeled tigers, and then they were all labeled terrorists,

Starting point is 00:39:11 just like all Palestinians are Hamas, and all Hamas are terrorists. We'd already been through that narrative. And I was like, but no, there's like nuances. There's real people, there's civilians caught up in this, but it was very difficult for American public to grasp because yeah, like they weren't used to the language, you know, yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:33 And wasn't, I think your father was a, was he a leader or rebel? Your father was something, right, that he was a part of. He was a founder of a group called Eros. Right. father was something right that he was a part of. He was a founder of a group called Eros. Right. And yeah, he was one of the founders of not the Tigers, but there was four fractions, four groups and my dad had one of them, but they were all yeah pretty that they were around at the same time. And I think somebody accused him of being a terrorist

Starting point is 00:40:05 and he said, my father was not a terrorist. No. It wasn't part of it. No. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so now that you've been in this space, who from the outside looks more powerful but is not, who from the outside looks like they don't have any power, they got a lot of power, specifically in the music industry.

Starting point is 00:40:23 Cause you went all the way to the top. So if you're sitting there with Jimmy Iveen and you're watching him fire people right in front of you, hiring new team. I do think people, you know, since I have... I would say, yeah, I think since I've been in the music industry, there were lots of labels. There were lots of independent labels.

Starting point is 00:40:43 There was a variety of like, you know, genres and lots of independent labels. There was a variety of genres and all of these things. Now we pretty much have two giant corporate labels. You've got Universal and Warner Music and they pretty much own all of it. I still think it's the same in, it's the same, like you're saying, how Black Rock has more money than, or two countries have more money than Black Rock and that's China and America. And it's like that, eventually, like everything eventually will turn into being one company, you know, that's also simultaneously happening to the music industry. So how powerful was Jay Z when you were doing business with them? Was he already a power player where if he wanted to ruin someone's life or make somebody a star, he could do

Starting point is 00:41:35 it? Yeah, I think me and Rihanna came out the same year so he definitely did that you know but Jay-Z was um I'd like to talk about Kanye more because I think he was very important to the rise of Jay-Z you know and he made that all. He added the creativity to that whole thing. And I think they don't give him enough respect and dues. But yes, Jay-Z was more of a businessman. You interacted with both of them, right?

Starting point is 00:42:25 You had relations. Yeah, Kanye was always the artistic one. Creative side. Yeah, he's the creative one. And I connected with that. And Jay-Z obviously had the clout and the reputation. And, but I saw that they both represented two different dynamics, which the world wasn't privy to yet.

Starting point is 00:42:48 Yes, but I already knew that back then. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. That's happening again. It's the same thing. You know, everything could you fast forward then knowing now Jay's got the kind of clout that he has and Connie has been criticized and he's lost a lot of clout that he has, and Connie is being criticized, and he's lost a lot of wealth the last few years. Could you have predicted this?

Starting point is 00:43:09 Well, I think the interesting thing was they made that record, Watch the Throne, and one person was going to get the throne, you know, and that was already set. Like they were fighting for that throne. Or one of them was talking about the throne of God, you know, or you didn't know what kind of throne it was, whether it was the throne of Satan or the throne of God or whatever, you know, or whether they were two kings duking it out over this throne. I think that that was a very, you know, that was the moment that that kind of thing happened. And if you look at politically, the Jay-Z supported Obama and Kanye supported Trump. And so there was sort of vying for this.

Starting point is 00:44:05 And so there was sort of vying for this. You know, that was also quite a telling thing. In these uncertain times, if there's anything we need is we need people to believe the future looks bright. So you, if you've heard about me saying this mission to you, we're on a mission to get a million people to wear this gear. And this is what we're doing. If you buy one of these hats, there's a category of buying one hat, getting the second one free.

Starting point is 00:44:25 If you haven't yet worn this gear publicly, go ahead and test it out. Buy some of the gear, wear it in public, and see how many people will stop by and say, you also watch a value timing? You also follow PBD Podcast? I do, too. Place your order. Go to vtmerch.com, click on the link above or below, place your order, and represent the VT and the PBD Podcast gear.

Starting point is 00:44:45 Who had, you know, at the end of the day, how much of this is also who has your back? Meaning, who had Jay-Z's back where Jay-Z felt protected? Many, many years ago in Italy, not in Italy, in New York, when you were able to, somebody comes and robs your liquor store and they say, listen, you may not want to take money from me. You want me to call Sammy? You want me to money from me you want me to call Sammy you want me to call Tony you want me to call XYZ oh Maya I'm so sorry please don't make that phone call here's the money back and you were backed up by somebody solid they pay taxes you know behind closed doors so you were protected it was all the same thing I from the outside what do

Starting point is 00:45:23 you mean the same thing I from the outside... What do you mean the same thing? From the outside, I felt that everybody was protected by America. All American artists were protected by America or I don't know what you want to call it, the men in black, you know, whatever. There was definitely a thing. Of the music industry. Yeah, there was definitely a thing because I was constantly attacked. Like, I felt that creatively if I wrote a song or if I made a music video, there'd be a reply to it very instantly. Some artists will reply with a shot in their music video referencing the shot of my thing and they would attack it or destroy it.

Starting point is 00:46:11 For example, that was visible all the time. If you wore something, someone will drag it in a post later on and make fun of it. If you designed something or you know it was always there and and I and I'm I feel like I'm a seer like these things are very clear to me and I thought oh this is a political thing you know that I knew that politics was involved you know my YouTube channel would get set to zero all the time year after year. My videos look like nothing, you know, and that they did that, you know, and it was and my fans couldn't really fight it. And eventually, at that time, I didn't want to monetize by selling my

Starting point is 00:47:07 fans out in 2010. I think it was a move towards a business model and you had to collect data on your fans, you know, and companies were having to do this. And I think half of it is that, again, is profit motivated where, say, Interscope had to make a deal with Apple and make a deal with YouTube and make a deal with Facebook and all of these, Silicon Valley and the industry, Hollywood, like all of these things were one. And when that joining of all these companies were happening, when that happened, then yes, you had to fight for your position. And the only way you can fight for your position, if you say, yes, I can be controlled and I'm

Starting point is 00:48:04 going to do this thing. And I already wasn't a contender because I've supported this whistleblowing company called WikiLeaks. And I was making songs called Connect to the Google, Connect to the Government. So I couldn't have been in that. Your relationship with Ben today, your son's father, you guys have a good relationship? Yeah. A good relationship. Okay. Then I'm not sure if you'll be able to answer this,

Starting point is 00:48:32 because you probably answering it could hurt the relationship. I'll ask it anyways, and then you can refuse to answer, do whatever you want to do with it. So his father is one of the two most powerful people in the music industry because there's two of them, right? You got one side, you got the other side. Edgar Bronfman, you know, multi-billionaire, two, three, four billion dollar guy. His son, Ben, who you're dating, who you have a son with, 15 year old. And I can only imagine he's dating you, Edgar the father's gonna call and say, Ben, what the fuck, you know, what's going on? You gotta tell her to, she can't make comments like that.

Starting point is 00:49:14 You gotta realize your father is this, an industry this, an industry that, and it's not like they weren't dealing with a lot of controversy. There's a lot of controversy behind the Bronfman family with Edgar's two sisters and, you know, the sex, you know, all the stuff that was going on with these things. Would you ever get in a position where it was kind of like, look, for this relationship to continue, you got

Starting point is 00:49:36 to stop saying some of the stuff that you say because you're hurting my relationship with my father. Did those things ever happen or no, not really? I don't want to get too much into it because I don't want it to affect my son. You know, but we are from two different worlds and again, I I really do put it to like the way America runs versus my world, which is made up of all the other bits of the world. You know, there's America and then there's this other 90% of the planet, you know, and how they do things and Because I grew up in Sri Lanka and stuff like that. I am because of my father and who he was like my dad

Starting point is 00:50:35 I Think they put him on a no-fly list or whatever and you know, I I had somebody call me up and Say that to me recently, saying, hey, there was some leaks from this airline company and your dad's name is on it. Like, why is that? Like, I still live in this world, you know? And so I think it really is a mashup of the two opposite worlds. But for me, I had no idea of the,

Starting point is 00:51:13 I don't know how to say it. Like I didn't, I don't know, I'm a musician and. Yeah, but you're not any musician because you're, it's just the first time I'm watching you if I can be straight up with you That I get a feeling you're walking on eggshells a little bit and I understand so I don't want to put you in a bad position but you you've always been the Vocal one right you've been the one that says Barack Obama should be given his Nobel Prize of 2009 back similar to who gave his MBA back?

Starting point is 00:51:45 Was it Lenin? Is that the one? Yeah, but I mean, we're talking about American elites. I think they're generally the same, whichever family it is. I do think that on a spiritual level, I have to look at it from a spiritual perspective. And spiritually, a lot has happened to me in the last 15 years that my son has been around. And I try to make sense of it thinking, okay, you have an elite class in America, which is what I was introduced to. Talking about Jay-Z, like he wasn't an

Starting point is 00:52:28 elite then, but is in there now. That's one thing. But you're talking about this situation. To me, the Broffmans, I try to see it from a spiritual perspective, which is when I discovered my name is the goddess of music in Hinduism, what I learnt was that there's an elite class of people called the Brahmins, and Brahmins held the keys to the temples and knowledge and they looked after this wealth and knowledge and had the power in society in India. And then Matangi, the goddess, she represents the untouchables who were the people in the hood and the ghettos and they were the voices. And spiritually saying that, the Brahmins sound very similar to the Brahmins and also play a very similar role in society.

Starting point is 00:53:32 That they do hold the key to institutions and places and the power of who gets in and out of what. The same way I think other families do. And they are supposed to be in tune with the gods and spiritually gatekeeping. You know, that's what the role of the Brahmins are, is to spiritually gatekeep this access to God. Like if you look in the ancient times, how spiritual people advised kings and queens and the monarchy, spirituality and the ruling class were supposed to be kind of on the same, you know, that they were supposed to have an understanding. So if you're,

Starting point is 00:54:27 you know, it's like the chessboard, you have the bishop next to the king and queen, you know, and they advise how the knights are and who protects the castle. And like that, the role of the Broffmans or any elite family in America or in the world is supposed to be very in tune with spirituality. And they were in tune with doing God's work. And so I was trying to see it from a spiritual perspective to be like, you can't just go all out and say crazy shit because society does need people like,

Starting point is 00:55:15 or not does need, but in society, you can't help that the structure is a pyramid. That is America. America's set up as a pyramid structure. It's the manmade way to digest society, is that you have power at the top and everything is down to the bottom. And some people are at the bottom

Starting point is 00:55:38 and we want to affect what is at the top. And this is the war. And I feel like, yes, I probably come from the upside down triangle where you're representing the people and you want to ask the questions about how you're being led, you know, and they are the opposite, where they are at the top and they control like, you know, they're part of the system of what gets filtered down.

Starting point is 00:56:05 But sometimes it's important to be the edge finder of these things. And I've always said this from day one being an artist is that I was the edge finder just by saying the wrongest things or going up against somebody which is very spontaneous and happens quite naturally. I've found the edges of society. I've found the edges of America. I've found the edges of whatever that's going after Kanye West. I've found the edges of the intelligence community and I found the edges of all of this was completely by you know going up against this stuff so I can't really say I know the shape of this

Starting point is 00:56:55 thing and this is what this is is because I I I don't know I I feel like my brain operates differently and I'm in a different way of understanding stuff. And it's not like me and Edgar are close, like we never were, you know? I think it was always quite separate and my son has this very separate understanding of the world, you know? I'm a little bit confused because I'm either you know sitting here thinking I've lost my mind Rob. Can you pull this story up? I just found this right now Because this is from four months ago. Okay, and this is Rob if you can just text it to you What are you doing Rob, is it the same story you just type in okay So Maya calls that Jay-Z rock nation ousting her during custody battle, right?

Starting point is 00:57:48 If you go up a little bit on Twitter, and February 8th she served, the day I was served for my child, Roc Nation stopped all communication with me and all my emails to Jay-Z asking for help, was wiped from my inbox, my... Yeah. Was broken into every laptop was taken, I was trapped in Brooklyn in order to Leave in Brooklyn and then this is your tweet by the way go a little lower Because when you when if I sit here and and uh, yeah and then go a little lower Rob So this is uh

Starting point is 00:58:18 My first customer was 2013. My child was four. I was managed by Jay Z who ultimately was paid by Bronfman's My child was four, I was managed by Jay-Z, who ultimately was paid by Bronfman's. Hair, James, vaccine on my child without my permission, they manipulated my child into lying to a 12-year-old pretending to be his mom. Of course, you know, a child psychologically damaged a child. I don't want to gossip, you know. You know why I'm showing this? Because you said, you know, no. I don't want to gossip and feed into the gossip, which, you know, a lot of these sites did

Starting point is 00:58:43 just blow it up. No, there's a difference on gossip. But you're right. The important thing because I look like a fool when I'm sitting here. You're like, yeah, it's the internet saying I, you know, it's not a no, no, no. The important thing is, yes. Jay Z was the Def Jam CEO, which was Edgar's situation from Warner, Atlantic, Def Jam. And it's big, you know, to me, it's, it's, and I think this is also, if you ask Jay-Z this question, maybe this, this is also what he would say, is that in America, if you have 40 million black people and you have this artist that's coming up to occupy the position of their ambition is financial. If you wanted to be the Black Bill Gates, as Beyonce says, no one can get in the way

Starting point is 00:59:55 of that. Even people from smaller communities and smaller plights, to them, yeah, where is Sri Lanka? Who are the Tamils? Who cares? You know, I think to them, being part of and building this narrative of the American, you know, the wealthy black community is more important. and whoever has to be thrown under the bus for that that that was What was gonna happen and I think Ben? Broffman is also the first black broffman, you know, and that's a really important point to understand so

Starting point is 01:00:38 Because his mom is black, you know and so I think that was a movement that was happening. And yes, I had the template that that was radical and is is is is the edge that hip hop needed, you know, but I was also inspired by hip hop and bought it back to America in a different form and shape on a very real situation because there was actually a revolution happening in my country at the time, you know, and by then hip hop had already moved into finance where they were talking about bling and I bought back the old school version of hip-hop where you're you know in the category of what artists like Nas and you know people that were more political and conscious what they were representing so it reignited something else but then it got repackaged by hip hop, you know, and I think it did influence a lot of Kanye's taste or Rihanna's taste and Beyonce's taste and what happened with those four artists

Starting point is 01:01:55 like Jay-Z, Kanye, Beyonce and Rihanna. My stuff did affect that, you know, and that then made them into billionaires, which was the goal. That was their goal. I think you came and catalyzed that. Yes, it happened in a very nasty way where the thing that was thrown under the bus was me, my personal life, my child, my relationship. It so happened to be that I was personally involved with the record label that owned these four artists, which is crazy, but that is facts.

Starting point is 01:02:39 But at the same time, I don't know. I don't know what to say. It's like he went on to win a Grammy. I didn't. Um, and you know, it was, it was justified because it was helping the black cause. And, and to some extent there is validity in that, you know, if you have to throw yourself under the bus For this moment in history I Almost think you know, I was like the sacrificial lamb and it's like

Starting point is 01:03:18 That in music, you know, it was maybe meant to happen I don't ask you this I had you this, I had Dime Dash here a couple months ago and we did a nice podcast together and it was interesting just listening to him, kind of processing what he has to say and the fall between him and how it didn't work out and Jay-Z and we talked Kanye, we talked a bunch of different things together.

Starting point is 01:03:40 How much of it was the fact that maybe some personalities, if you come from a very humble beginnings, you live in a regular life, and then all of a sudden, boom, fame and money hits you, you don't know how to handle it. It's like, wait a minute, what the hell just happened? Imposter syndrome, I'm just a regular guy, what is this all about? Why is this happening to me? And then sometimes you feel you have even more authority and you push more and you're a bigger asshole or a bigger diva to deal with and there's people on both sides, right? Some, they're harder to work with because they're like become bigger divas, some they're harder to work with because

Starting point is 01:04:19 they become bigger assholes. Almost like tyrants and dictators and my way or the highway. Well money makes you become who you are. More of what you are. Exactly. It reveals what you are. So it's not that money corrupts you, money amplifies your corrupted being.

Starting point is 01:04:37 I totally agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. But do you think a part of yourself with the know, like your yourself with the climb and, you know, some of the setbacks that you have, how much of that do you think it was your own doing versus no, it was done to you? I do think that there was, you know, I suffered a lot with jealousy as a person. Because I'm so... I don't know, my brain's built creatively. I think I am similar to Kanye in that way.

Starting point is 01:05:16 We think about ideas and we think about the world and we're like, oh, and get inspired and we're triggered a lot by things and, you know, our brain jumps around and I don't spend time in that sort of feeling, but I realized that a lot of people in power were always jealous of me because I had this weird ability to do it out of nothing, you know, and do things that other people strive for years and years and years to do it out of nothing, you know, and do things that other people strive for years and years and years to do, which I didn't really think was a thing before when I first came out. I didn't realize that was a thing that people strived for, you know, and invested tons of

Starting point is 01:06:03 money into and did all this stuff. And to me, it happened very naturally. And it's like, I don't know, it's like, it maybe was my destiny to become a musician. And I'll say that now, but wouldn't have said that 15 years ago. So I think in that sense, yeah, I think half of it, I think, could be that, you know, my original goal

Starting point is 01:06:34 was just to come from a very traumatized place and a traumatic life experience and make that a positive thing and put it out into the world to teach people that you could come from anything and and be positive. But it wasn't necessarily that I wanted to be this very rich person. Even fame was not my end goal. The end goal was being creative and being able to give therapy to yourself through art, that you come out a better person. That was happening and it was really great and other people were connecting to it and the connection was really inspiring and super interesting and really amazing. And you know, like, I don't know how that happens in the world, but that was a really awesome thing to experience. In the end, there was a line drawn and people were being made into very rich people.

Starting point is 01:07:52 And it was always day one said that I cannot be financially empowered, I think, by a lot of people behind the scenes, because the power would have been too much. That I already had the power, you know, to talk to people and to communicate and to connect with, you know, if I had to make a song with 10 pounds, it would still have an impact as much as a song made with a million dollars, you know. And that was really a spontaneous and a natural thing. I think people thought, if she had money as well,

Starting point is 01:08:35 she'd be too crazy. So my money was always curved and financially, I was always curvedbed from the beginning because the power was too much. People would turn up to my shows with AK-47 magazines and people would be like, it was really, it was very, very real. Really? AK-47 magazines?

Starting point is 01:09:00 Yeah. And get me to sign guns and and people like there was a show I did where a Palestinian girl threw this like letter up on the stage and she put like a chain and a pendant inside it and she was writing a letter telling me about how her mom died in her lap, you know, and that listening to my music in the tent got her through, and it's just pretty intense, you know. I feel it. I saw an interview of yours, it was one of the earlier videos, where you're talking to

Starting point is 01:09:44 your mom and your mom is walking away And she's washing the dishes. I think she's and you're like I haven't seen them for 16 years I'm trying to find a way to rebuild the relationship with them and rekindle that relationship. What was that moment? Have you seen this clip I can show it to you if you haven't seen it yeah Rob I want to send this clip? I can show it to you if you haven't seen it. Yeah, sure. Rob, I wanna send this to you. Rob, if you can't find it, see if you can, oh, let me see if this is the one.

Starting point is 01:10:22 Let me see if this is the one. I think this may be, yeah. Yep, this is the one. Let me see if this is the one. I think this may be. Yeah, this is the one. I found it. I'm curious. How old are you here? What are you going through here, Rob? If you can show this clip. Yes, my entire family lived in that room. Yeah, that's what you were saying.

Starting point is 01:10:39 Is that your son? No, that's a tenant that lives there now. I think the important thing is that people know when something is real, you know. That's quite incredible, you know, that people can tell. And I guess that was the important thing. Yeah, when I watched this, all I saw was innocence. I saw innocence. I saw the twinkle in your eyes. I saw joy. I saw an effort to try to show love or respect to the family.

Starting point is 01:11:28 I saw tradition. I saw a lot in this when I was watching this earlier. Everyone's got a story, you know, and that's the thing, that no matter what, when you try to explain or relate to people what you've gone through with your life, it's not really easy to do, especially if you've lived a weird life. But that's the beautiful part about these podcasts. You get to go out there and tell your story and others hear it and they say, wow, I never knew about what she went through with that.

Starting point is 01:11:59 Rob, do we have that now or? I believe so. Okay, go for it if you could. When I was your age, I stayed in this room. Can you hear it? I'm singing in the room then. What year is this? This was the year 2000.

Starting point is 01:12:12 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001.

Starting point is 01:12:20 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. 2001. What year is this? This was the year 2000. This is the place where I was born. I have been here before. They gave me money in London.

Starting point is 01:12:40 They said they would bring me here if I had to struggle. Sumathi Akka, please. I told her that I would bring her to the camp and she would suffer. Sumathi, please. I have to take care of you. And I'm having to spend a lot of time with them off camera and get them to be comfortable with me and get them to understand what my personality is like because when they see me they straight away assume that I'm a Tamil girl and I'm into the same things as everybody else and they sort of suggest taking me out to the shopping mall. You know, and it's really difficult for me to get across the point that I'm not interested in those things and it's kind of Now at this point have you experienced fame?

Starting point is 01:13:31 No, I was at art school Wow, yeah, when's the last time you watched it so even now I'm saying yes I'm not a capitalist. They were trying to take me to the mall in the middle of a war zone. Even they were capitalist in the middle of a war, you know, and they were like, Oh, she's from England. That's what, that's what she's into. And I'm like, no, I'm into information, you know, and what's happening to people. And so this year they, they'd invented this thing called PTA,

Starting point is 01:14:08 which was Prevention of Terrorist Act. And under the PTA, they were killing all these random, innocent Tamils because anyone could be called a terrorist. And then they'd given the power to the civilian, the Sinhalese people, that they can report any Tamil that they're suspicious of. And under suspicion of PTA, you could be held without trial forever in jail. And this was happening,

Starting point is 01:14:40 and that's what I found out in that time. So coming from an art school, I was like, oh, there's this thing. And don't forget, this is a year before 9-11. So it hadn't happened to the Iraqis yet, you know? And so I was the first person who was like, oh, there's this thing called PTA which allows you to arrest anyone you want at any time. And anyone can suggest you should be arrested. Like your neighbor can do it,

Starting point is 01:15:11 the guy at the shop could do it, the person at the restaurant had the ability to make a civilian arrest. If they don't like you, they don't like what you're wearing, they could do that. And it's like, imagine that in the woke culture we live in today, if you give people permission

Starting point is 01:15:31 to arrest people you don't like based on just anything, you know, that you don't like their like outfit or you don't like their hair or you don't like their sex or you don't like their whatever, you know? And so that's what was happening, which was a very dire situation. So I wanted to make a documentary on that, and, you know, so I was already a little bit, like, exposed.

Starting point is 01:15:56 That's my awakening, you know, that year, going from complete denial of my history, you know, because when I came to England, I locked it off because I was like, hey, what is the best thing to be? And everyone's into music and everyone's into going out. And I lived out my teenage years and I was not political. I wasn't, I didn't see my father and it wasn't, you know, I was just a refugee. Who were you living with when you went to London?

Starting point is 01:16:30 My mom. And so we were really just surviving, you know, minimum wage, doing like minimum wage refugee family stuff. And so that was my first confrontation of the reality and what is reality to a lot of my family that was there. And then thinking, wow, how do you deal with that? knowing actually even though you're a minority second class citizen in England, it's still a lot safer than being in your homeland. But I also felt very frustrated at the fact that the Tigers were the only people there that were fighting for the tunnels, were the only people there that were fighting for the Tamils. But the world had branded them terrorists.

Starting point is 01:17:27 But at the same time, even though I was a British citizen at the time, I was being harassed by army soldiers, and you couldn't go to the police and report it. You couldn't go to the army to report it. You can't really go anywhere. And you start beginning to think, wow, I'm glad that there's somebody fighting for my cause. And so I was very torn by that, because even by that time, my dad was not into the war. My dad always tried to broke a peace.

Starting point is 01:18:11 But as a woman in my early 20s there, I was like, either you feel protected in society or you need somebody to voice you know your side and and so there was a need for some organization like the Tigers you know who did what is the comparison of the Tigers compared to what the average person could say who would they be comparable to you said Hamas earlier, who would you compare the Tigers to? Or who would the media compare them to? I mean The Tigers had their own like police

Starting point is 01:19:06 System court system You know, they were like they they had their own police system, court system. They had their own area that they controlled. They built communities and irrigation. They were kind of across the board in schools and they were very organized and they were super disciplined. You know, like everyone swore to chastity, like, you know, people didn't celebrate, yeah, celibacy and nobody, you know, the men and women didn't mix and they were highly disciplined, they carried cyanide, that if they caught they die on the spot. They were pretty ruthless in their discipline. So I don't know who I would compare it to. But they were very, very... Who was the leader? Velupalai?

Starting point is 01:20:05 Yeah, Prabharan. But at the same time, they were ruthless in terms of... My dad was more like the intellectual... You know, he brought the intellectual layer to the cause, you know, and he was educated and he was trained by the PLO as well in the 70s. But he studied all revolutions around the world. My dad was very international in that sense. He really cared about what was happening all across the world and wanted to shape the revolution

Starting point is 01:20:46 that was modern and forward thinking. My dad was a visionary and he wanted everything to be very forward thinking as well as respecting this ancient Tamil culture. Tamil is one of the oldest, well, it is the oldest language in the world and You know that the war started on the back of them the the Sri Lankan Prime Minister Yes, it's the oldest living language in the world. That's still in use. Spoken by 78 million people. Yeah. So in Sri Lanka, we are thought to have the original version of Tamil called Senthamo and the Indian version is almost like a dialect that comes from the original Tamil.

Starting point is 01:21:39 Historically, they haven't explained how this is so, you know, but maybe in the future that will be revealed. But my dad wrote the traditional homelands of the Tamil people, a reference book that kind of dives into these kind of things and connecting some dots. But the oldest language in Sri Lanka in the 50s and 60s, the respect for that wasn't there. So the government basically got rid of all the Tamil signs in the streets. They deleted Tamil as one of the languages in Sri Lanka. They made all the government documents in Sinhalese. They pulled it from schools. And this is why the war started.

Starting point is 01:22:27 So they branded all the Sri Lankan women with hot tar, like Sinhalese letters. And, you know, so it was very like, it did come out of this like language. It did stem from, the first conflict stems from that because that was the first thing stems from that because that was the first thing they attacked you know the language slowly slowly the identity but the language was the Tamil people's identity

Starting point is 01:22:54 you know and they were very um... politically it says here the the self-styled national liberation Organization with primary goal of establishing an independent Tamil state. Tamil nationalism was the primary basis of its ideology, striving for a democratic secular state that is based on socialism. Its leader, Velupillai, was

Starting point is 01:23:18 influenced by Indian freedom fighters such as Subbas Chandra Bose, the organization denied being a separationist movement and saw itself as fighting for self-determination and restoration of sovereignty in what it recognized as Tamil homeland. Although most Tigers were Hindus, the LTTE was an avowedly secular organization. Religion did not play any significant part in its ideology. The founder criticized what he saw as the oppressive feature of the traditional Hindu Tamil society, such as the caste system and gender equality. They presented itself as a revolutionary movement seeking widespread change within Tamil society. Interesting. So would-

Starting point is 01:24:00 Yeah, see, we fought our- the homeland we were fighting for was called Elam. And Elam, you being Iranian, like that's Elamites. So the Sri Lankan Tamils, they're different. So even though the South Indian continent, Tamils, the Dravidians and the Sri Lankan Tamils connect. They also had interjected some sort of connection to Elam and Elamites. And we, you know, our homeland, we named it Elam and that's what we were fighting for. So my dad's movement Eros stands for Elam, revolutionary organisation of Students. And so that's why he had the intellectual sort of background to his thing.

Starting point is 01:24:51 But I was always very interested in where they got this Elam word from and why they decided to name our homeland Elam. But people fought and died, you know, and Elam, I think is also like the son of Shem or grandson of Shem, you know, in the biblical sense. And if you look at Mesopotamia and the first city, it's called Ur, and apparently Abraham's dad comes from this place Ur, and he was called Terah. And apparently Abraham's dad comes from this place, Ur, and he was called Terra. And so if you look at the word Ur, all of our land is called that, like every city.

Starting point is 01:25:34 Basically, it means city in Tamil. And if you look at South India, the map of South India now and zoom in, every city, every town has the word Ur at the end, you are. And it's still there and it's still called that. And so there's definite like a huge connection between, you know, Mesopotamia, Babylonia, and all of these regions and the Tamil language. You know, if you go to Australia and you look at the red rocks there, that is named Ul-Ur, and Ur means the same. It means inside land, is what it means in Tamil. Ul is inside, Ur is land. And so, you know, the language is there, and it's

Starting point is 01:26:22 also in, I think they say that it's 30% of Aramaic, you know, the language that Jesus Christ spoke. I speak that language. Do you? Fluently. Well, then there'd be loads of connections between the Cameroonian language. Yeah, I just looked it up, Rob. Can you type in exactly what I texted you?

Starting point is 01:26:39 This is very interesting. Yeah, so when they speak about this... Elon was a long-lasting ancient civilization just to the east of Mesopotamia in what is now southwest Iran. Elon was centered in the far west and southwest of what is now modern-day Iran stretching from the lowlands of what is now Khuzestan and the Elan province as well as a small part of southern Iraq. Wow. Yes. So now, now we should have the real conversation because the elimination of the Tamil people in Sri Lanka and the fact that I speak about that and that's how I came up speaking about

Starting point is 01:27:18 it, in fact that's what incentivized me to become a musician to talk about it, there is some sort of a reason, you know. And now we're living in a time where we're doing DNA tests and all of these companies, you know, Google, the thing that I spoke against is now the owner of DNA, like 23andMe or whatever it's called and Ancestry.com, you know, BlackRock owns that now. So wherever you're coming from, whatever your story is, whether my dad started a revolution and did sustainable development about farms and did this and this and that, whatever, or I'm a musician coming from all these battles with people like Daisy and whatever, Oprah, wherever I'm coming from, everything leads to this one point, you know, and the point is now we're living through a time, the entire global DNA system is owned by two companies.

Starting point is 01:28:22 We're in a middle of a war where we're discussing who the chosen people are and what their DNA is, who rightly belongs to this land, who rightly was there 2000 years ago. What is this about? Is this again, more money? Is this about oil underneath Gaza?

Starting point is 01:28:47 You know, is this about a religious thing where Jesus' second coming takes place? You know, it's really interesting. Or are we talking about who the Messiah is and all of this and I think this is a really, to me, it's like, I don't know, fast forwarding into where we're about to go is, I think, pretty interesting in that sense, you know, that Tamil language to me, I always thought that even though the Sri Lankan Tamils at the time made up like two million people, once upon a time we occupied like 75% of the population in Sri Lanka, and then we were invaded by the Portuguese, the Dutch and the British, and our population shrank to 20%. And so during the filming of that documentary, I was there during the census report in 19, I mean, year 2000, and they didn't allow the Tamils to fill out the census report, right?

Starting point is 01:30:05 So I knew that, or in 2000, I knew that they were going to wipe those people out and there'd be no accountability. And 10 years, it took me 10 years to become a musician, become famous, say that, and that happening, you know? And so initially I made this documentary because I was like, oh, I got to document that, that they're going to not include the Tamils. Ten years later, change the narrative and say, no, there were no Tamils, you know, everyone's been accounted for when they didn't get to fill the census report.

Starting point is 01:30:48 And I just feel like, but there's even more, you know, to discuss about why these people are important. And I don't know, it's just even becoming Christian recently, I'm just discovering that. The Tamil people in India, they have this theory, which some people deem as a conspiracy theory, but they have this theory where Jesus spoke Tamil on the cross. They have clips of Mel Gibson's movie where Mel Gibson says in an interview that he says? You know, I wanted to really keep the language True to what they would speak or what Jesus would have spoken 2,000 years ago So he researched Aramaic and made sure that he you know got it as close as possible

Starting point is 01:31:44 But if you listen to the words and he says the word Appa, Appa means father in Tamil. And so when he calls out on the cross in the scenes, he says Appa, Appa, and yeah, that means father. brother, and he says to Mary or whoever was with Mary in that shot, he says, parengo, which means look after them. And the last word, which is on Google, it says, ellam ellome sabatani, which is the last sentence spoken by Jesus on the cross. In Tamil, that means everything is done, yeah, give me death. But in English, in the Western civilization and the way I've always known about it is, Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do or something.

Starting point is 01:32:45 Pete Yeah, it says, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? El-Sara No. So, in Tamil, Ella means everything, Elom. Yeah. So, the Ella-me is one word. It's not El-e-la-me. It's Ella. Pete Ella. It's ele ele. Alaha, alaha. I don't, if, if. Elame is everything. Now you gotta give me a listen to this.

Starting point is 01:33:12 And sabathani is savathani, which means give me death. Like, give me the end, you know? like give me the end, you know? And that is what happened. If he said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? There'd be an answer or there'd be a next question. But he says, give me death and then it ends. And that's why that's the last sentence. And that's why that's the last sentence. But I'm not a theologian, theology expert, and therefore I think, and also Egyptian, and this is why I think, yes, it was important to preserve the Tamil language and not give in in the 50s 60s

Starting point is 01:34:27 What do you think about America? What do you think about America? Like what is America to you because? You know, do you think highly of America? Do you think there's obviously a very Strong conviction that you have based on what you saw what you were taught Your loyalty to your father. I actually think differently about America now because I think that God obviously is working in America as well, you know, and so I have time to hear it out. Whereas I think before I used to be much more like America, bad, you know, they're just into war for profit. But I think that, yes, post COVID, we do have an interesting situation brewing where this... I don't know, actually, when I first started as a musician in the interviews I used to say that I felt like I was a teacher that's coming to teach Americans and expand their conversations and ideas because I felt like they were being stifled and there was like

Starting point is 01:35:57 an iron dome on information and that was being built after 9-11. And that I already thought, wow, 10 years from now, Americans are going to be so out of whack with the rest of the world. They're going to believe something totally different, because they were in a bubble. And so in 2004, I was just like, wow, it'd be interesting to just go over there and say whatever because it's just important for them to know about all this weird stuff that's going on. That's why I think information is important and freedom of speech is important and all

Starting point is 01:36:34 of these things are important. When internet gives you the illusion that that is there, but it's kind of controlled. You have to be at the forefront and say that. As an artist, that cost me a bit to take that position in 2010 and be a part of that conversation. But I think it's worth it. And what I like about America is that actually some people are super informed and know much more than I do. And you still get that, you know, when they go for it, they really go for it, which is amazing. Do you have a better view of capitalism than you did 10, 15, 20 years ago?

Starting point is 01:37:30 Do you see capitalism in a positive way or a negative way? I do think that the world is not like capitalist, communist, it's like, with a very stark line down the middle. I do think, you know, the future is a bit more like that. But because I think that God empowers his side of the people with money also, because without it, it's really impossible to exist in this world. And for a long time, I was really allergic to money, you know? But I think it's okay that I believe that it's just the world that we've built where it's become a necessity.

Starting point is 01:38:28 But I think that, yeah, in terms of one person owning the whole world and controlling it, it's not good. Yeah. So there has to be a variety of ideas and coexistence happening. What's next for you? I feel like I'm emotional as well because I've had two hours of sleep. It's like, it's what is next for me? I think working on this clothing line for the rest of this year, so making this EMF protective clothing because we're going into or we've already gone into a world where we're monetizing the minds and bodies of human beings, you know, and we were thinking that was great. You know, like the fact that that has been happening the last four years and people have been able to come out,

Starting point is 01:39:51 leaders of the world have been able to come out and say, yeah, humans are hackable and this is what it is and this is what we're going to do now and you all are useless, but we like your data about, you know, what your body's doing inside. Like that, it's so bizarre, but we're living through that time. We like your data about what your body's doing inside. It's so bizarre, but we're living through that time. I feel like at the moment I'm inspired to make fashion do something, and that's what this brand is.

Starting point is 01:40:19 It's like swag, but it actually does something. I'm kind of proud of that. And OMS is about resistance and I think privacy and all these things, even though we feel like the world would be a better place if we didn't have it and that if everybody was one single consciousness and therefore everyone should live with 100% total transparency, I do still think that, you know, for spirituality to, you know, for true voice of God to be heard, you need time and space and you need to be alone. I feel like, you know, God isolates you and then anoints you and gives you an assignment, you know, and that you're not supposed to be given an assignment by your government and given an assignment by the corporations. We've witnessed that in the last four years where even my fans, who I feel like I've been very, from day one, very open and confusing with deliberately as well to make them as

Starting point is 01:41:42 smart as possible because they've really had to do mental gymnastics to follow me as an artist. But even when I noticed them being funneled through this like sheep kind of mindset, and you know, and every day becomes difficult for them to not back the three things that they're given to like, you know, and speak that way and act that way and dress that way.

Starting point is 01:42:10 And you see it, you know, then you see like how dangerous that could be, you know. And so yeah, and I think this just like puts a bit of autonomy back in your hands. Yeah. Is that your son? That's my son. Good looking guy. How old, you said he's 15? Yeah. I mean, he's just like the coexistence of all these things. He's like Tamil, black,

Starting point is 01:42:38 Jewish. He looks like he's got swagger. He definitely does. Yeah, so he's like all these things, you know, living in one person. Well, we're gonna put the link to this below for the audience to go check out and support. Rob, make sure we put that below. I gotta get you to the airport because you got a long flight. I got a long flight and then I got a show Yeah This has been a lot of fun talking to I really enjoyed I had no idea what direction we're gonna go But as an artist you never know we started somewhere we ended here But I appreciate you for coming here and sharing your story with me. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's complicated

Starting point is 01:43:24 And it's not slowing down. No, it doesn't look like you're gonna slow down anytime soon. Yeah, it's complicated. And it's not slowing down. No, it doesn't look like you're going to slow down anytime soon. Yeah. Anyways, take care, everybody. Bye-bye, bye-bye. Thank you, thank you. In these uncertain times, if there's anything we need is we need people to believe the future looks bright. So you, if you've heard about me saying this mission to you, we're on a mission to get a million people to wear this gear and this is what we're doing. If you buy one of these hats, there's a category of buying one hat, getting the second one free. If you haven't yet worn this gear publicly, go ahead and test it out. Buy some of the gear, wear it

Starting point is 01:43:54 in public, and see how many people will stop by and say, you also watch a value timing? You also follow PBD Podcast? I do, too. Place your order. Go to vtmerch.com, click on the link above or below, place your order, and represent the VT and the PBD Podcast gear.

PBD Podcast - "First Internet Artist" - M.I.A: From Refugee to Rebel, Paper Planes, and Beefing With Oprah

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