Pints With Aquinas - 04: Does purgatory really exist?

Episode Date: April 19, 2016

Whether there is a Purgatory after this life? Objection 1. It would seem that there is not a Purgatory after this life. For it is said (Apocalypse 14:13): "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. From henceforth now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors." Therefore after this life no cleansing labor awaits those who die in the Lord, nor those who do not die in the Lord, since they cannot be cleansed. Therefore there is no Purgatory after this life. Reply to Objection 1. The authority quoted is speaking of the labor of working for merit, and not of the labor of suffering to be cleansed. It is said (2 Maccabees 12:46): "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins. Therefore after this life, there are some not yet loosed from sins, who can be loosed therefrom; and the like have charity, without which sins cannot be loosed, for "charity covereth all sins" [Proverbs 10:12]. Hence they will not be consigned to everlasting death, since "he that liveth and believeth in Me, shall not die for ever" [John 11:26]: nor will they obtain glory without being cleansed, because nothing unclean shall obtain it, as stated in the last chapter of the Apocalypse (verse 14). Therefore some kind of cleansing remains after this life. ST. Appendix 2. A 1. SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, Episode 4. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we'll ask St. Thomas the question, Can we know from Scripture and reason that purgatory exists. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. And before we delve into this fourth episode, I just wanted to say that it's been so cool to hear from so many of you

who have begun listening to Pints with Aquinas. Big shout out to Megan and Philip from Peachtree City in Georgia, who I met recently. Thank you for letting me into your ear holes every week. I'm excited to be doing this, and I hope that it's a help for you. I think St. Thomas Aquinas is one of these theologians and philosophers that many people maybe shy away from. We're a little nervous about reading that we think he might be too far above us in how he writes.

But that's not really the case, I don't think. Thomas does delve into some heavy subjects, and he does use some metaphysical language that maybe a lot of people aren't familiar with. But if you can just scratch through the surface there of that metaphysical language, I think we'll all find that St. Thomas is actually very easy to understand. And it's been my experience as I've been reading the Summa that Thomas is answering questions that I thought I was the only one who asked the question, you know, and here he is answering it. So anyway, great to have you with us. Thanks for everyone who's been tweeting me at Matt Fradd on Twitter and stuff like that.

Anyway, here we go. In today's episode, we're going to ask St. Thomas the question about purgatory. Does it exist? And can we know that it exists from the Bible, but then also from reason? So I'd like to quote from St. Thomas Aquinas in the Appendix 2 from the Summa Theologica. He says this, whether there is a purgatory after this life. Now here's the objection St. Thomas deals with. It goes like this, quote, it would seem that there is not a purgatory after this life, for it is said in Revelation 14, 13, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth now set the spirit that they may rest from their labors, unquote. Now here's Thomas's one sentence response to that objection. And then he'll talk about why we know that purgatory exists. Thomas says,

quote, the authority quoted is speaking of the labor of working for merit and not of the labor of suffering to be cleansed, unquote. Okay, now here's Thomas's response, and again, like usual, I'm going to cut little bits out here and there because it can be a rather long quotation. He says, dead who are in heaven, for they are in no need, nor again for those who are in hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins. Therefore, after this life, there are some not yet loosed from sins, who can be loosed therefrom, and these have charity, without which sins cannot be loosed, for charity covereth all sins. Hence, they will not be consigned to everlasting death, since he that liveth and believeth in me shall not die forever, John 11 26. Nor will they obtain glory without

being cleansed, because nothing unclean shall obtain it, as stated in the last chapter of the apocalypse. Therefore some kind of cleansing remains after this life. Those who deny purgatory speak against the justice of God." So there you are. Now let's break that down a little bit. Perhaps what we should do before moving any further is define really briefly what we mean by purgatory. I know it's not only Catholics that are listening to me out there, and so perhaps you'd like to get that straight once and for all. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph 1030. All who die in God's grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation. But after death,

they undergo purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. So that's it. You know, sometimes when I talk with Protestants about the reality of purgatory, I say to them, okay, look, forget about the word purgatory, if that's tripping you up, and let's just deal with this concept. So for the rest of this podcast, I want to talk a little bit about what Thomas had to say about 2 Maccabees. I'd like to share maybe some of the things that the early church fathers had to say, or at least reference those early church fathers who taught purgatory, which is essentially all of them. What I mean is none of them denied that we should pray for the dead. And then I would like to close

by offering a biblically-based rational argument for the existence of purgatory. So that even if your friend doesn't want to accept 2 Maccabees, which of course, St. Luther, St. Luther, wow, St. Luther, definitely not saint, Martin Luther, wow, not cool. Martin Luther, who was definitely not a saint, he relegated 2 Maccabees as well as seven books in totals and bits of others to an appendix. He got rid of these. And this is what the church has historically accepted. Pope Damasus I in the year 382, this is the first magisterial statement that we have concerning the books of sacred scripture. he said, 73 of them, are what Catholics accept today. And that was soon reiterated by the councils of Hippo and Carthage. And it wasn't until the time of the Protestant Reformation that some of these books got relegated to an appendix. Luther also put James in there. I think it was 1 John, certainly Revelation. And a lot of this had to do with the fact that it was contradicting

his interpretation of sacred scripture. So that's how we're going to close it, by looking at an argument for the existence of purgatory based on what we know from scripture that I think any honest Protestant should accept. And then we might also say a little bit about how much time, if any, is in purgatory. Okay, so that's a lot. You have to be a geek like myself to even be interested in a podcast like this. So I hope you are. Okay. So St. Thomas Aquinas is talking about second Maccabees. All right. What happened there? Okay. So in chapter 12, around, I think it's around, I don't have in front of me, 39 to 40s, we see Judas Maccabeus and some other people from the Jewish forces, they're collecting

bodies of the dead. And these are people who are on their side, they're comrades, okay? They've been killed in battle. And as they're doing this, they discover that these men, their fellow soldiers, were carrying, it says, sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. That's in verse 40. So, Judas and his fellow soldiers thought that they must have died as a punishment for this sin. And so, they get together and they decide to pray for these men. And here's what it says. Quote, they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. He also took up a collection and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering.

In doing this, he acted very well and honorably. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin. End quote. Sounds very Catholic, doesn't it? So this is basically what Thomas is saying. He's saying, listen, the Bible teaches that we should pray for the dead. And it doesn't make any sense to pray for the dead if they're in hell. And it doesn't make any sense to pray for the dead if they're in hell. And it doesn't make any sense to pray for the dead if they're in heaven. Because if they're in hell, no prayers can

help them. And if they're in heaven, they're in need of no prayers. So there must be a sort of intermediate state, a cleansing state where we can be purified from our sins. That's Thomas's point. And it's a good one. I mentioned that the early church fathers all accepted this. You're not going to find one. And what do I mean when I say the church fathers? I'm talking about the Christians who lived immediately after the time of the apostles. And so I've got a whole list here. As long as my arm, I could read them all out, but you're welcome to look them up, okay? St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine of Hippo. We could go on and on.

All of these people are talking about it being a legitimate thing and a good thing to pray for the dead. But why don't we just take one of these quotations? This is St. Augustine who lived in the 5th century. Here's what he said in the City of God. Quote, temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then, but all of them before the last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains that are to follow that judgment.

For to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next. That is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come. Okay? So it's clear that St. Augustine accepted purgatory. And as I say, so did the church fathers, so did the apostles. But people can get hung up on this word purgatory because all sorts of images come to their mind. So what I'd like to do is share

with you this logical argument for the existence of purgatory. Because your Protestant friends who you're talking with, they're not going to accept what St. Thomas Aquinas said. And they're not going to accept that because they don't accept that 2 Maccabees is scriptural. So what is one to do? Well, I want to thank my friend, Jimmy Akin, who works at Catholic Answers. Him and I used to work together and I learned a lot from him. His intellect is only exceeded by his very generous heart. The man is an incredibly humble and gifted man. Now, he introduced me to this logical argument for purgatory. So here's how it can be articulated.

All right. Premise one, there will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven. Premise two, we, or at least most of us, are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of our earthly life. Conclusion. Therefore, if anyone is to go to heaven, there must be a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved, those, as Thomas says, with charity, are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin. Doesn't that make a lot of sense? I mean, I don't care how holy you are. Maybe you're a very holy person, and yet you are still sinning and you still have attachments

to sin. And I don't think anyone, if they're a Bible-believing Christian, would accept that those attachments are going to remain in the afterlife. They're not. So, because what I've just laid out here is a deductive argument, okay? If one wants to say the conclusion's false, right? This conclusion was, you'll remember that there's a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved are purified. Then he must take issue with one of the premises, since the conclusion follows from them necessarily, okay? This is a logically valid argument. So, okay, what do you want to take issue with? Premise one or premise two? So, if you want to take issue with? Premise one or premise two? So if you want to take issue with premise one, which you'll remember is there will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven.

I mean, really, you're going to take issue with that? I don't think anyone would. In Revelation chapter 21, verse 27, it says, nothing unclean shall enter heaven. So by that, it means no one who is sinning or is attached to sin. I think that's a very reasonable and logical interpretation of that verse. So, okay, if we agree with premise number one, then your only option is to take issue with premise two, which you'll remember says, we, and at least most of us, okay, are still sinning or are attached to sin at the end of our earthly

life. Do you want to take issue with that? I don't think many people would because in 1 John 1, verse 8, it talks about this, you know, that most of us are sinning. John says, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. So perhaps we're not sinning gravely, but we're still sinning in small ways and are at least attached to sins. So I think any Bible-believing Christian should recognize that there won't be any sin or attachment to sin in heaven. And that, yeah, a lot of us are still sinning at the end of our life. And yet these people will end up in heaven. And so therefore there must be an intermediate stage in which one is cleansed of that life. And yet these people will end up in heaven. And so therefore, there must be an intermediate stage in which one is cleansed of that sin. That's all the Catholic Church means when it talks about purgatory. Now, how long does purgatory take? Well, because we don't know

how time works in the afterlife, different theologians have had different things to say on this. Interestingly, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who would go on to be Pope Benedict XVI, he seemed to side with the idea that it'll just be an instant. It actually won't take any temporal duration at all. I have a quotation from him here. Here's what he says, quote, the transforming moment of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is indeed not eternal, but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as a short or long duration of the basis of temporal measurement derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The temporal measure of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depth of existence, in a passing over where we are burned here, we are transformed. To measure such existential time, in terms of time of this world,

would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with and differentiation from the world. So he comes to this belief, one that he thinks is at least an open option, this belief, one that he thinks is at least an open option, that it might just be the encounter with God that purifies us in an instant, like this purifying fire that then, as we're being purified, we are now fit to behold our blessed Lord. So I hope that has been somewhat of a help for you. And not just a help intellectually, but a help in the sense that it should motivate you and me to give thanks and praise to our heavenly Father who desires to save all men. What a beautiful grace purgatory is.

Hey, a couple of concluding thoughts here today. First thing I've got to say is people have been asking me about that song that I play at the beginning and end of my shows. It's actually from my sister. She's in a band duo called Interior Castle, and the song is called Finished Dreaming. So what I thought I'd do today, since people have been asking me about it, is I'll play the entire thing at the end so you can rock out to that. And you might look up my sister Emma Fradd on iTunes or whatever online and follow her and listen to some of her music. Because if you're like me, you kind of get tired of some of the Christian music that gets played a lot on the radio. But her stuff's phenomenal because she's not explicit in her Christian language. So when

you listen to her, you can't really tell that she's Christian. But that way they kind of get into bars and they get to have some amazing conversations with other atheist musicians who are playing the same night and stuff. So anyway, you'll really like that. Okay. Last couple of things I want to say is this, please, please, please rate the show on iTunes. I know I keep saying this and I sound like a crazy person, but the reason I do is I want people to come across this show and I want it to be a help for them. And the way they're going to stumble across it is when we have more and more people rating it. So please give it a rating if you enjoyed it, if you do enjoy it, and that'll help people stumble across the podcast.

Secondly, I want to say go to mattfradd.com if you want to learn more about me and follow me on Twitter. And by Twitter, I mean Twitter. Twitter. I can't do that R like you Americans if you want to learn more about me. And follow me on Twitter. And by Twitter, I mean Twitter. Twitter. I can't do that R like you Americans if you're American. Twitter, Twitter. Follow me on Twitter. Send me a message. Maybe tell me what you want to hear in an upcoming show.

I'm Matt Fradd. God bless you. I battle with my consciousness I battle with my selfish flesh Whose wolves am I feeding myself to? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you

And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you, to carry you, to carry you I took you in Too many grains of salt and juice Lest we be frauds or worse, accused Hollow me to deepen in you Whose wolves am I feeding myself to? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? I'm gonna survive And I would give my whole life

To carry you, to carry you And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you To carry you, to carry you To carry you There were birds in your tears falling from the sky Into a dry riverbed that began to flow down to

A cross town high up above the water and maple trees surrounded it leaves caught flame with golden embers