Pints With Aquinas - 08: Was there death before the fall of man?

Episode Date: May 17, 2016

Objection 2: Further, it is unfitting that elements hostile to one another should be brought under the mastership of one. But many animals are hostile to one another, as the sheep and the wolf. Therefore all animals were not brought under the mastership of man. Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state, have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For then ature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30, say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of thisProvidence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon. ST 1. Q 96. A 1. --- Link to my post: http://mattfradd.com/was-there-death-before-the-fall/ Link to Jimmy Akin's post: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-animals-die-before-the-fall/ Holy Apostles College and Seminary is the sponsor for this show: http://www.holyapostles.edu/ SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, Episode 8. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we'll ask St. Thomas the question, was there death before the fall of Adam and Eve. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. As I already mentioned, we'll be discussing the question, was there death before the fall of Adam and Eve? But before I get into that, I want to do a shout out to our sponsors for this episode, Holy Apostles College and Seminary. Holy Apostles College and Seminary is a Catholic college, a small Catholic college in Cromwell, Connecticut. They offer undergraduate, graduate, and seminary degrees in history, English, philosophy, theology, and pastoral studies in on-campus, online, and blended formats.

Now, I did most of my degree in England, but I completed my undergrad at Holy Apostles, and it was fantastic. You can do it 100% online at a school that is 100% faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and the prices are fantastic as well. So, if you're thinking about a university, or maybe thinking about transferring to a university, check out Holy Apostles College and Seminary. All right, to the show. Was there death before the fall? That's an interesting question, isn't it? Because maybe a couple of things come to mind. Maybe at first you're inclined to say, well, no, there can't be because that's what sin brought into the world. But then if you think a little bit harder about it, you'll realize that there was this thing called dinosaurs and stuff. So, was there death before the fall? By that question, I don't mean, was there human death before the fall? I mean, was there the death of plants and animals? Now, those who want to object to this usually aren't Catholic, but they will often point to

a passage in Romans chapter 5 that said, therefore, as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. So, but you notice it's just talking about men here. It's just talking about the human race. And I think that is a sign that that is exactly what it's talking about. That when Genesis talks about the disruption that happened after the fall, it's not talking about a disruption that took place in nature, but in man. So, let's read that passage from Romans 5, and you see how it's speaking specifically about humankind, okay? Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. Sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one to come. So, we think, well, how can that be? Well, when you look at the story of Genesis and the account of the fall, it's important to realize that this account of Genesis is using figurative language to convey a truth. And this is what it says actually in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 390. It says, quote, the account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents. Well, one of the things we should think about is this tree of life. In the second chapter of Genesis, it seems to suggest

that the tree of life, which was in the midst of the garden, we read about that in chapter 2, verse 9, was the means by which Adam and Eve were to live forever. So, we read that God had given them permission to eat from that tree, right? How do we know that? Well, we know that because God said they may freely eat of every tree in the garden. And it was only the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they were forbidden to eat from. By losing access to this tree through original sin, man lost the opportunity to live forever. In Genesis chapter 3, we read that God drove them out of Eden. And it says, quote, lest he put forth, he being Adam, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever. It then says that God placed cherubim and a

flaming sword, which sort of reminds me of like the biblical equivalent of a Jedi. It says, which turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. But I think just by reading Genesis, and by the way, in case you're wondering when we're going to talk about Aquinas, don't worry, we're getting to that. But something to say beforehand, we can know from just reading the opening chapters of Genesis alone, that death existed before the fall. Why? Because God gave them permission to eat fruit, and that means death. Specifically, the death of the fruit's flesh and its seeds, if those got chewed up in the process. The fruit's flesh and its seeds are alive. They're made of living cells. In fact, the seeds are even little fruit embryos, which makes

them independent organisms of the fruit. Now, of course, if it needs to be said, these aren't human and so they aren't rational beings, so they don't have rights or a right to life, and it's okay, obviously, to eat them, but they do die when we eat and digest them. So, the same thing is true of other plant matter as well. So, we've got good reason to think that even on a highly literal reading of Genesis, we can see that there was death before the fall. Okay? Now, what does St. Thomas Aquinas have to say in this regard? Well, Thomas is going to be talking not about plant life, but about animal life. In the first part of the Summa Theologica, question 96, article 1, Question 96, Article 1. The question is whether Adam, in the state of innocence, had mastership over the animals. Now, we read, the second objection is this. further it is unfitting that elements hostile to one another should be brought under the

mastership of one but many animals are hostile to one another as the sheep and the wolf therefore all animals were not brought under the mastership of man now what's really interesting is that the very first thing Thomas says is in reference to certain individuals who said, you know, before the fall, you know, lambs and lions would prance around together. You know, that maybe lions just like to eat strawberries and cucumbers, that they weren't carnivores. Thomas is addressing those people in this reply. Okay, here's what he says, quote, In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others would in that state have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable.

For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others would then have lived on herbs as the lion and falcon. And then he refers to Bade's writings. He says, nor does Bade's gloss on Genesis 1.30 say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been accepted from the mastership of man, as neither at present are they for the reason accepted from the mastership of God, whose providence has ordained all this. Of this providence man would have been the executor,

as appears even now in regards to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon. So, there you are. We've shown that that chapter from Romans, chapter 5, does not imply that there was no death before the fall, but only no death among human beings. I think we can see from a literal reading of Genesis that there was death, at least plant death, fruit death. Now, that might sound rather silly, but if you've got someone coming to you and saying there was no death before the fall, they're taking a very literalist approach to the text of Genesis. And so, all you're doing is responding in kind. You're saying, okay, if you want to take a literalistic view, then we can know from Genesis that there was death

because, you know, fruits, these fruits died and different plants died, okay? And then we see from St. Thomas Aquinas that animals died because as he says man's sin did not affect affect the animals and it's not as if these lions were just eating dandelions and stuff they were carnivores so this has just been a short episode today but it's a fascinating question and if you would like to learn more go to google and just type in was their death before the fall matt Matt Fradd and my article pop up and you can read a little bit more about what I've had to say on this. And you can also get a link to a colleague of mine, Jimmy Akin, who's written on the topic. And I'll tell you what, I'll throw St. Thomas's text in the description of this podcast, as well as a link to that article. I hope that's been a help for you. May God bless you. Thank you so much for listening. As always, I'd like to ask you, would you please consider rating Pints with Aquinas? By you rating it, it brings us up higher in the algorithm when people type in things like Aquinas or whatever. So that'd be a huge help. Go to mattfradd.com to learn more about me and the stuff I'm doing and follow me on Twitter, at Matt Fradd,

and maybe shoot me a question or a tweet. May God bless you. Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive? And I would give my whole life to carry you.