Pints With Aquinas - 10: A pint and chat with Fr. Chris Pietraszko

Episode Date: May 31, 2016

In this episode I speak with Fr. Chris Pietraszko about why he loves St. Thomas, and why you should too! Check out his podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/fides-et-ratio/id912044662?mt=2 SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform  

Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, Episode 10. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? Well, in today's episode... St. Thomas has actually gone to the bathroom. It had to happen at some point, so I'm not sure what we're going to do. We'll figure something out welcome to pints with aquinas this is the show where you and i usually would pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy, but as I said, since St. Thomas has gone to the restroom, we're going to have to do what we can.

And looking across the bar, I spot a fellow who's been listening into our conversation, Father Chris Prochaszko. G'day, Father. Hey, how are you, Matt? Very good. Prochaszko, did I get that right? You got it right. All right, awesome. Well, look, you're a big admirer of St. Thomas, and so I've asked you to come on the show today so you and I can speak a little bit about him. So maybe tell us a little bit about yourself first, and then we'll talk about your love for St. Thomas. Yeah, my name is Father Chris, and I belong to the London Diocese in Canada, Ontario. I was ordained about four years ago, and I'm 30 years old.

I have always had a love for philosophy, and I struggled a lot with trying to understand the Church's teaching growing up in high school. And then I got involved with apologetics and began to discover philosophy, but it wasn't until I entered into the seminary where I was introduced to the philosopher and the theologian, which is Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas. And there I found answers began to pour out from the Church and from her tradition and from this particular saint. out from the church and from her tradition and from this particular saint. And I mean, really, when I talk about myself, I have to always go back to St. Thomas because of how much of an impression he left on me and how much strength he gave me in my faith. And yeah, I don't know

what else to say about me right now. Well, I think a lot of people feel like faith is just something they have to will in themselves. You know, like they'll say, I think a lot of people feel like faith is just something they have to will in themselves. You know, like they'll say, I need to have more faith. We'll just try harder. But really, that's sort of the wrong approach. I mean, it would be like saying, get into this car and just will that it will get to wherever, Toronto, Atlanta, you know, a few hours away, you know. And that's not really enough. You kind of need good reasons to think the car will get you there. And I think in a similar way, maybe what you're saying is St. Thomas Aquinas was able to give you the reasons to have faith in Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church. Is that right? You know, mystery, the word mystery comes from mysterion.

It means to shut the mouth. And I find that our words do have their limits, but what St. Thomas Aquinas does with reason is he opens us up to that mystery by beginning to explain things and by making the faith so much more tangible and concrete. I think the best way to describe his approach is that God gave us a brain and he expects us to use it. And that brain, of course, has been affected by sin, by concupiscence. And yet St. Thomas Aquinas was given such a powerful grace to see things so clearly, almost so much that I believe he can save our mind if we take seriously the distinctions that he makes and the theology

that he develops. Now, a lot of people are nervous when it comes to St. Thomas and the Summa Theologica. It just seems like this whole world that's maybe above and beyond us, and for that reason, I think a lot of people are hesitant to kind of get into his writings. Was that your experience when you started reading him, and how did you resolve that? Yeah, you know, I'm still trying to understand St. Thomas Aquinas at times. His language that he uses is far removed from the language that we use today, and so it's almost as if we have to learn how to read the basics of St. Thomas before we go into them.

And there are some really good books out there that can really help us understand what St. Thomas means. So I often recommend to people that they don't go immediately into St. Thomas's own works, but that they strive towards that as a goal. One book that I often recommend to people is Peter Cree Suma of the Suma. I find that a helpful kind of introduction to the language of St. Thomas. But I think also to be patient with yourself. We live in a culture that wants answers very quickly, and we want sound bites. These things that Aquinas teaches us, you know, they need to be mulled over, meditated and prayed about. And I think discussing

them, being able to talk them out often can really help us kind of dive into Him. And I don't think anyone who has really dedicated themselves to that kind of study has ever regretted it. Yeah, it's interesting you say that. We live in this soundbite culture and we just want the bottom line immediately because sometimes I'm tempted, Father, as I read the Summa, you know, the way it's broken up, it's, you know, broken up into these different questions. Like, for example, one of the questions is whether God loves all things equally. And, you know, he starts with an objection, you know, and it says, it seems that God loves all things equally. And sometimes I'm tempted to be like, okay, that means he doesn't. Good, got the answer. Instead of seeing what Thomas actually has to say and how he arrives at that

conclusion. Yeah. And, you know, I actually really respect his approach in regard to questions because what he's doing is he's showing the other side of an argument and he's responding to it. And I find that this is very respectful of the culture that we live in today, that we want to enter into a dialogue with other people who have different views, but also be able to make sure that we're being honest about our approach, that we genuinely understand the opposing view. And if we do that, we can crush our enemy's arguments, if you will, in a way that's logical and sound. And I think people are more respectful of that when they

see it's not just an emotional reaction to what they're saying, but it's grounded in philosophy and wisdom and in truth. And so his approach is very dignified. It has a lot of integrity to it. And so his approach is very dignified. It has a lot of integrity to it. And that's just a testimony to the Church's longstanding tradition of explaining itself. Yeah, no, spot on. He does really put forward his opponent's best arguments, doesn't he, before he deals with them. Why don't we give an example of that, maybe for our listeners who've never really read St. Thomas. So, just really quickly, whether God exists, and then Aquinas comes up with only two objections, which is interesting, actually, because usually he'll come up with, you know, three, sometimes several, but he only seems to come up with two. So, apparently, he thinks these are the two best, but let's just read one of those objections, which we have to remember he himself wrote. It seems that God does not exist, because

if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word God means that he is infinite goodness. If therefore God existed, there would be no evil discoverable. But there is evil in the world, therefore God does not exist. I mean, that's really good. That's a good argument. I think he puts that argument better than Dawkins and some other new atheist types do. Absolutely. I find what Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens and contemporary atheists fail to do is they fail to appreciate Aquinas' approach, which they sometimes misunderstood and misapply. I once was listening to Richard Dawkins talk to a psychologist over YouTube, and basically he came up with Aquinas' argument, and he scoffed at it. He said, what do you mean God's essence is existence? That's just nonsense. And he didn't even touch

the argument. He just laughed at it, and it was kind of sad because that's such an unacademic approach to what Aquinas has laid out for us in what you're talking about in his Article 3, I believe, of his argument for the existence of God. So it really needs to be dived in deeply, and that's the sad thing about Richard Dawkins particularly. I find his arguments are very superficial when they're criticizing St. Thomas Aquinas. What are some things that St. Thomas Aquinas teaches or addresses that have helped you specifically, maybe in a way that you haven't found in other saints, a particular area of the faith or church doctrine or something? particular area of the faith or church doctrine or something? You know, I was reading G.K. Chesterton's story about St. Francis and about St. Thomas the dumb ox, and I found that St. Thomas Aquinas' love for nature is parallel to St. Francis' love for

nature, and that's something that G.K. Chesterton highlights, which is ironic because some people generally pit them against each other. But Aquinas has this deep appreciation for the order that God has created within nature, and often we derive the term natural law from what Aquinas offers us. But I think it can all be summarized in the four causes of Aristotle that Aquinas really picks up on and applies. And those four causes have opened my eyes to the Church's morality, to the teachings on the natural law, and even our own end, our desire for happiness that Aquinas really picks up as well. The four causes being the material matter, the universe's creative matter, and that matter has form, so it's another cause.

And that form of the matter came through an agent or an efficient cause. And finally, that everything acts towards an end. It has a purpose. And understanding that and applying it constantly to our nature, we can understand simple things like this, you know, that my eye was made to see. That's its end. Its purpose is to see. And that it has mattered. But if that form is kind of distorted or twisted, that it prevents my eye from seeing as properly as it should see. And so we can tell

that there are things such as disorders within nature. And we can apply that principle to so many different things, you know, especially when it comes to human sexuality. You know, if it's true that my ear is made for hearing, my eye is made for seeing, my tongue is made for speaking and tasting, and so on. Why do we all of a sudden stop when we get below the waist? And that's where I find that with Aquinas, there's this complete consistency with saying that if your life has a purpose, which it does, which is experience, we live like that, it's not as if I wake up in the morning and existentially decide that my eye is made to see. I discover that reality. It's in me. It's there. I have to surrender to that, you know.

And so I think that Aquinas' view of nature and the order of it is very reasonable. And I feel as if—I'm sorry, I'm going on a little bit here. No, you're doing great. It's very interesting. I feel as if a lot of the debates that happen in the United States or in Canada about, say, things like abortion, same-sex marriage, and euthanasia, what we've done is we've kind of compartmentalized those issues to a matter of faith, which is true. They do apply to our faith, but we have an adequate response that doesn't require necessarily an appeal to faith, that is just

reason-based on the level of the natural law. And that's, I mean, that's essentially the foundation to most of our laws, that we can explain why these things are wrong, and what in fact is beautiful and good to strive for, just through reason alone, which is something that every human being has in common, and which human law should be created from. And I think that's why Aquinas is so important to study, human law should be created from. And I think that's why Aquinas is so important to study, because he doesn't create this arena of thought where you can compartmentalize the faith and say,

well, that doesn't belong to the human law then. But rather, he creates and facilitates an environment where we can share universal truths about the anthropology of being a human person and what it means to be human. All of that, of course, naturally leads to God, but in terms of certain moral truths, we don't need to always appeal to those realities of faith to get there. Yeah, so St. Thomas would say, you know, we experience the world and we have to accept and submit to the way things are or reality. And you correct me or you add something to what I'm saying if I'm a little off here, Father. But it seems like maybe the opposite of Aquinas is maybe Immanuel Kant. You know, prior to Kant, you've got David Hume who denied causation, which if that were true, goodbye science.

And along comes Immanuel Kant who has this sort of Copernican revolution of the mind in which he says, okay, no causation, we can save causation by say our minds are structured in such a way that we project things like causation and space and things on the world around us and therefore they do exist. Now, the nice thing about that, I suppose, is we've saved science, but now we can never know things in and of themselves. Is there some kind of relationship between what Kant was talking about and maybe today with some of the transgender conversations where, you know, I'm not denying that some people might, you people might have a trouble understanding their

sex and that sort of thing, but just this idea that nature is malleable, that we decide what is reality, and if reality is contrary to what we think it ought to be, then we can use a knife, or we can use anything to kind of try and rearrange it and cut at it and malform it. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I think Kant is a herald of a form of Gnosticism, to put it bluntly. And Pope Benedict has adequately critiqued him in his philosophy. Part of the problem is that our minds, because of original sin, are corrupt. We don't see the truth in reality with integrity.

Our natural ignorance is combined with a prideful ignorance. Not only that, but our affect, our emotions, our desires, they're twisted. And so if we're going to project truth into reality based on what we think it is in our mind, it's always going to come out twisted. And so if we're going to project truth into reality based on what we think it is in our mind, it's always going to come out twisted. And we just require simple humility just to acknowledge that. And so I also think that it's very unrealistic in terms of modern thought, in terms of how we come to know. We come to know through sense experience. We see and observe things, and we meditate on the nature of things. I think most people are pretty down-to-earth in that regard.

They wouldn't apply kind of a rationalistic epistemology that Kant offers. But I do think, though, that in regards to human sexuality with this transgender terminology being used, the question is, who am I? Who am I as a man? Who am I as a woman? That's an ontological question. That's a question about the very nature of my being. It's not a question about how I perceive myself, how I feel about myself. All of those things need to come into alignment with the reality. And the truth is, is that every single man and every single woman, to some degree, doesn't fully understand who they are. And life is about constantly struggling to understand that and align our affect to it. And that brings us to another area of Aquinas, which I think is of

profound importance today, and is in opposition to the culture, which is his virtue ethics. His whole notion of developing virtue is about aligning our affect towards the truth. So a common example is in vice, you know, we think what we're doing is good, subjectively speaking, and we get pleasure out of it. But say, for example, I'm being this lazy slob that's eating too much, and I don't go to the gym, I move from that to the realization, the truth that what I'm doing is wrong. I allow my intellect to be truthful with itself, but I still am not changing. And so that's incontinence. And then I move up to another step to continence where I'm actually doing what's right. I'm going to the gym, I'm eating well,

but I'm not getting pleasure out of it yet. And then virtue finally comes when we align our nature according to the truth. And so we experience pleasure. We experience doing the right thing. And our mind has been made healthy. It's not lying and rationalizing itself. And that's where I think that that kind of notion, which is actually in modern day psychology, specifically cognitive behavioral therapy, where people are, say, struggling with anxiety, what they do is they act as if the reason for their anxiety isn't there. And so what they're doing is their will is moving first, and their affect is following it and eventually aligning itself to the will. And so that's the common struggle that we have to do as Christians, is we have to align our will to God's

truth despite how we feel about reality. The best primary example I can think of is when Christ is on the cross saying, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Christ in his human flesh and his human affect didn't feel the presence of God, but he still abided in the presence of God through his will and through his choice. And that's the height of Christian—it's the dark night, if you will. The height of the Christian life is confronting the error that's within our affect and within our mind, but choosing to ascribe to the truth and aligning our will to that. And the good news is that eventually our affect and everything is sanctified. It's lined up with our will.

Does that make sense? It does. I've got a quote here from St. Thomas from the first part of the second part of the Summa Theologica, question 71, where he says this, The opposite of virtue is vice. Vice is against the nature of man inasmuch as it is against the order of reason. So, I suppose we could look at vice through a philosophical lens or through a theological lens. Through a philosophical lens, we would say it's contrary to reason. Through a theological lens, we, I guess, would say it's an offense against God.

But this idea that the further entrenched in sin we are, the further entrenched in vice we are, the more rational insanity begins to appear, maybe? What do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, there's always the distinction between being intelligent and being wise. You know, intelligence could lead to creating a nuclear weapon, but wisdom tells us never to use it. And I think that we can be an incredibly intelligent person. I mean, the devil is the most intelligent being that God ever created, and yet he's the least wise, and he's the most unhappy. And that's the ironic thing, is in order for us to outmaneuver the devil, we don't need to be smarter than him. We just need to be wise, which is involving, in that case, trusting God,

because he's the smartest. He's the one who has a plan. That's beautiful. That reminds me of Dante's Inferno. For those of you who haven't read it, you have to read it. It's gorgeous, and it's not difficult to read at all. It's actually very beautiful. But there's this point where they finally get down to the depth of hell, and Satan, as you know, Father, isn't immersed in flames. He's actually frozen at the trunk. And what we see is his wings, he's beating his wings frantically. And it's those wings that freeze the waters of hell.

It's icy cold down there. hold down there. And if he would just submit to God, if he would just repent, if he would stop flapping his wings, he would become unstuck, you know, from this kind of the frozen mess he's entrenched in, but he refuses to. And maybe analogously, when we repent of our sin, we're kind of repenting of our insanity. We're turning away from what is unreasonable in the way we act, in the way we think, and we're aligning our wills, as you say, with the will of God, and what appears at first to be maybe like death is actually what can liberate us. Absolutely, and I think the irony in all of this is that pride often comes with the counterfeit notion that we're trying to fulfill our full potential.

You know, think of Adam and Eve being convinced by the serpent that God wanted to hold them back from becoming like him. You know, they already had that, but the devil was convincing them that they needed to eat and they needed to sin to become truly who they could become to fulfill their potential. But in reality, just being who we are, just agreeing to the truth, aligning our will to God, be it done according to your word, God, is actually the total embrace and acceptance of who we are. You know, the glory of God is man fully alive. And I think that's the struggle, you know, going back to this whole transgender issue. The irony is that people often say to the church that you don't accept them, but that's exactly what we're doing. We're accepting them

for ontologically who they are, and who they are is actually quite beautiful and good as man or woman. And the irony is that the whole LGBT or the whole group is actually quite beautiful and good as man or woman. And the irony is that the whole LGBT or the whole group is actually not accepting them for who they are. They're accepting them according to a lie, to a vice, to an unreal reality, to this affect that's disordered. Now, Father, you mentioned prior to this conversation that one of the things you've loved most about Thomas is the way in which he divides things or categorizes things, and you said that was a tremendous help for you. Did you already touch upon that with the four causes, or did you have more to say on that? The four causes is just never thought of before. And those distinctions are very good because they prevent us from kind of oversimplifying certain questions.

it's very difficult for me to explain, but the best way for me to put it is it shows the intricacy, the complexity, and the order of nature and of God's creation. And if we didn't have that order, you know, think of a painting. If you didn't have the different colors and the different borders and the different areas that give you, you know, a facial expression, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the nose and the eyes and the ears. And so St. Thomas Aquinas is able to break down the realities, the dimensions, the distinctions within nature, and yet at the same time put them all together in this amazing harmony. And just, it creates a beautiful picture for us of who we are as a human being, and who we are in relationship to nature and to God. And I think that's really needed, because most of the time when I hear people arguing today,

the only thing I can think of is, you're not using the right language, you're not making the right distinctions, you're using too few categories to express the reality. For example, people will say, if you love me, you'll agree with what I want to do with my life. Well, no, that's not the truth, because if you go out and shoot people, that's not good for you. And so you need to make all these distinctions about what is love? What does it look like? What type of love are we giving to this person?

And I just think it's beautiful how he has that capacity. I know I don't, but I just discover it and I'm enthralled with it when I'm reading him. It's almost like St. Thomas sees reality in slow motion, and he's able to say, you know, there's this, this, this, and this. We can look at this in five different ways, da-da, da-da, da-da. Yeah, and it's not annoying. Like, I just... No, and it's, yeah. He doesn't make distinctions for the sake of distinctions, does he? He makes distinctions for the sake of clarity. Exactly. You know, this, I know I'm bordering on sounding pompous here. I've already brought up Kant and Dante, but at the risk of that, don't you think that a lot of people should read Plato's dialogues? I mean,

Socrates is actually really easy to read. It's not difficult like Aquinas. I mean, if you read some of Plato's dialogues, Plato was, of course, Socrates' student who wrote everything we know that Socrates had to say. And of course, one of the things that Socrates was very keen on doing was asking for definition of things, because just like you're saying, very often we rush into this argument and we might be using terms completely differently, equivocally. And so, instead, it's so vital, wouldn't you agree, Father, that we slow down and say, when you use that word, what is it that you mean?

Yeah, the Socratic method is very powerful, I think, because one of the things that it seeks to do, and it's mentioned in one of Aquinas' prayers, is respond to our double ignorance. And it's mentioned in one of Aquinas' prayers is respond to our double ignorance. A double ignorance to Socrates and Aristotle and Aquinas is not knowing that we don't know. So thinking that we know, but we actually don't. And what Socrates does is he gets us to a place of humility where we can say, you know what? I don't know the answer to that question. What is justice? What is righteousness? And we live our whole life out of an assumption sometimes that, you know,

might be true to a point, but it's not perfect. And it leads to so many problems, the destruction of relationships, the destruction of even a healthy self-love and a love for God and openness to Him. And so I do think that Socrates is fairly easy to understand, but I find Socrates' main goal through Plato's stories is to be able to come to an awareness that justice exists, that righteousness exists, but we don't fully comprehend it, and we need a teacher to teach us what that is. Yeah, and this reminds me of another one of Aquinas' quotes, I think it's from him, that wonder is the desire for knowledge. And just like you're saying, it can be scary when people tell us we don't know what we're talking about, or if they show us up and they ask us a question,

we don't know how to answer it. But as you say, it can make us humble, and it's only when we're talking about, or if they show us up and they ask us a question, we don't know how to answer it. But as you say, it can make us humble. And it's only when we're humble can we begin to wonder. Because if we act or if we think like we know everything, we won't have that wonderful disposition that enables us to wonder at the world around us. We'll just walk along as if we know it all. You know, and that's, it creates a hunger within us for the truth, which is ultimately a hunger for God. And I think that Aquinas had that, like, oftentimes people treat him as if he was just this intellectual giant, but the man had such a profound drive and love for God that he would rest his head against the tabernacle and weep when he didn't understand something, when he couldn't fully grasp it. I mean, I jokingly say that I rest my head

against the summa, but I can't. But the point being that Aquinas has this deep, passionate love to know everything about God through his creation and through what he has revealed to us. And it's not this kind of hobby to Aquinas, but it's all about this outpouring love for who God is and what he's done for him. And I think that gives a greater context to the, you know, the spirituality of Aquinas. One of the best examples of that, if you ever want to read a really good book to open yourself up to the spirituality of Aquinas, one is called St. Thomas Aquinas, Volume 2, The Spiritual Master,

and it's translated by Robert Royal. Another one, a very simple read, but a very good one, is by Father Robert Barron on Aquinas, St. Thomas Aquinas as a spiritual master. This is a book he's written, is it? I haven't heard of it. It is, yeah. And I actually found it before Father Robert Barron, you know, got all popular and stuff on the internet. Now he's Bishop Barron, of course. But one of the principles that he does is, what he does is he takes the principles of Aquinas, his philosophies, and applies them to the spiritual life. So an example is that nothing can move itself.

And that leads us to the understanding that only God sets things in motion. And so he says, well, isn't that true for the spiritual life? That it's not that we've loved God, but it's that he's loved us, and that he loved us first, and that we can't seek to earn his love by doing all sorts of works, like as if we're manipulating God into falling in love with us. He loves us no matter what. You know, He loved us before we were even created. And that's just taking one logical principle but applying it to the spiritual life, which is the spiritual life that Aquinas had when he was doing this theology. Yeah, beautiful. He wasn't just an intellectual, he was a great mystic. I spoke about Aquinas, you know, ceasing his work on the Summa back in episode one of Pints with Aquinas. But would you mind maybe telling that story as you know it for our listeners? Because I think it's gorgeous. Sorry, which story are you talking about? You know how Aquinas had that, and I

probably should have asked you before if you even know this, so sorry. But you know where Aquinas began weeping and he put down the Sumer, you know, the Sumer's incomplete. Someone else had to fill it in with previous writings of Aquinas because he said, after what I've seen, you know... Oh, it's all straw. Yeah, all is straw. But all this goes back to show that Aquinas was a saint. He was... All this goes back to show that Aquinas was a saint. He was, and it's the knowledge of God that brings about the love of God, I suppose. You know, if we actually know to some degree who the Father is, we won't be able to be, we'll want to love him.

You know, I always cringe at people bringing, not when you said it, but when some people bring up the quote from Aquinas that it's all straw, the Summa, in contrast to who God is. Because it's often used as an excuse not to even bother reading him, as some people say. Easy way out. But in reality, I think Aquinas' point was that as beautiful as what his mind could come up with, eye has not seen, ear has not heard what God has ready for us. And I think his study of God led him to be opened to that mystery. You know, I think his reasoning always said that God is something more than what I'm writing. You know, when he talks about the language we use of God only being analogical to the very essence of who God is. All right, we've got to step back and just explain that for our listeners. Would you mind doing that?

Oh, yes, sorry. Aquinas makes a distinction when he's talking about how we can talk about God, and he says we can't speak univocally of Him, which, word is synonymously. So when we speak of God, our words are finite concepts, and they can never fully capture who God is. We run out of words. Again, going back to the word mystery, it means to shut the mouth. We can't articulate with finite concepts who God is. But what we can do, according to Aquinas, is we can use analogies to point towards him. So we can say God is good infinitely. You know, he's beyond just a grand total sum of beautiful things, of sunsets and all those sorts of things. But God is infinitely beautiful beyond our comprehension. analogical way that we can speak about God, meaning that our concepts and what we observe through our senses are always going to fall short of the beauty of God, which is why Scripture says,

no eye has seen, no ear has heard what God is ready for those who love Him. And when Aquinas was taken up into heaven with his mind, seeing God, or having some mystical, ecstatic vision, mind, seeing God, or having some mystical, ecstatic vision, he was experiencing something that went beyond his intellect and went beyond his own personal experience. And that's why he said it was all straw. And I think his Summa opens us up to that disposition where God can, if He wants, give us that experience of God, that kind of mystical encounter with Him. Absolutely beautiful. Concluding thoughts, what would your suggestions be to those who are listening who want to learn more? Because you probably agree with me, there's a lot of, I think, intellectually lonely Catholics out there. And, you know, we might go to mass and sometimes the homilies aren't very stimulating intellectually.

And maybe the Christians we run circles with just read these sort of basic devotional books. And of course, all these things are good. I don't mean to like look down on them in any way. But I think there's, as I say, people who want to delve deeper, they want to try and understand. And this act of trying to understand is, in a sense, an act of worship. We're trying to come to know and love God more and more. Absolutely. I think every Christian has a different charism and a different way to encounter the same Christ. And some people are called to the intellectual life.

I think of that when I look at figures like Pope Benedict and St. John Paul II. You know, these figures had this kind of desire to meditate on the mysteries of God. And sometimes in the culture we live in, that's kind of belittled. People think, oh, you're just kind of having an intellectual relationship with God. But don't allow that kind of negativity to spew over. Keep making it an exercise of prayer. Bring what you have to the Mass, even if the homily isn't adequate for your spiritual nourishment. Keep reading and constantly encounter the Eucharistic Lord in the mystery of what He truly presents to us on that altar,

because all of Aquinas' teachings lead us to that altar most profoundly, I think, in this life. That mystical union that we're seeking, that desire for happiness that God's planted in us can be met there. Yeah, and, you know, follow Matt Fred's podcast, you know, follow things that are nourishing you spiritually, and make sure that there are always works of worship that lead you to thanksgiving and not towards an intellectual pride. Because whenever we're studying things, there's always going to be temptation lurking, there's always going to be some way that the devil wants to twist it. So maybe pray a litany of humility before speaking about it or before.

That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. I like what you said there because, you know, I know I want to be seen as intelligent and brilliant, and I want people to really like me and respect me. And I don't think that's very different from anyone listening. I think you're the same as me. I think we all struggle with that pride. And the solution isn't to pretend it's not there and then speak with false humility about what a slug we are. But it's about recognizing,

yeah, there's a tendency in me that I really want to be loved and I want people to think highly of me. And yet, Lord, let me find my identity in you. And Father, speaking of podcasts, tell us about your fantastic podcast, which I have to tell everybody I get a lot out of. I listen to it whenever there's a new podcast on your show, Father. I listen to it and I benefit greatly from it. Tell the folks about that. Well, I have a podcast called Fide et Ratio, which is faith and reason in Latin. I basically have been teaching a course for the last two years in my parish here in Leamington, Ontario. And we've been talking about how to defend the faith. And I use St. Thomas Aquinas as a backdrop, the philosophy of him, to kind of explain the faith and to also give the spiritual side of things.

They're very long podcasts. They're about an hour long each, but I just, like I said, like when I speak about God, when I speak about the faith, I fall in love with it all the more. And so I'm just happy to be able to share that. And thank you for the compliment about that. I'm glad you've got something out of it. I hope it can help anyone else. And since this is Pints with Aquinas, Father, I've got to ask what you're drinking. Do you drink beer? Do you have a favorite beer? You know, I haven't had a bad beer. Never met a beer I didn't like. Yeah, I like Trappist beer. Chimay is my favorite Trappist beer. But here in Canada, we don't water things down like in the U.S.,

so it's all pretty good here. I like, I'm trying to think of, I like Rickards Red a lot too. Yeah. Well, thanks for being with us at Pints at Aquinas. God bless you, Father. We'd love to have you back on another time. God bless you too, Matt. Well, since this was the 10th episode of Pints

with Aquinas, I've decided to take two weeks off, two or three weeks. Okay. So don't you worry though. Stay subscribed. We're going to come back with some high octane theological and philosophical discussions with the angelic doctor. In the meantime, listen to the rest of the shows. If you haven't heard them. Rate us at Pints with Aquinas, wherever you're listening to that. And visit us at mattfradd.com. That's my website. And I also want to just say a big thanks to Emma Fradd, my sister who lets me use her music here every week. Check her out. Emma Fradd's her name. Look her up on Google. Look her up on YouTube. Listen to her stuff. She's fantastic.

And why don't we just rock out to her as we end this 10th podcast. God bless you guys. I took you in Too many grains of salt and juice Lest we be frauds or worse accused Hollow me to deepen in you Whose wolves am I feeding myself to Who's gonna survive Who's gonna survive Who's gonna survive

And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you, to carry you, to carry you, to carry you. There were birds in your tears falling from the sky into a dry riverbed that began to flow down to a crosstown high up above the water And maple trees surrounded it leaves caught flame

With golden embers