Pints With Aquinas - 118: Aquinas on sex, pleasure, and the body with Cameron Fradd

Episode Date: August 7, 2018

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Welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with the big man and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, we're joined around the bar table by my wife, Cameron Fradd, to discuss, yep, sex. We're going to see what Aquinas has to say about sex. Was it the result of the fall, as some people have said? Is it the result of the fall, as some people have said? Is it meritorious or is it bad or is it neutral? He has a lot of cool stuff to say. And in addition to that, we talk about John Paul II's theology of the body and much else besides. If you have young kids around, do not let them listen to this episode, at least until you've listened to it first. All right. Oh, and by the way, before I forget, I've created a new podcast called Bible History. There's about 300 and something

episodes. We're not that far ahead yet, but that's how many episodes I plan on doing from Genesis to Revelation. It'll help you and your kids familiarize yourselves with self, with Holy Scripture. It's 100% free and it's available right now. So go check it out, Bible History. I will do my best to put a link up in the show notes, but if you just go to your podcast app and type Bible History frad or something, you'll find it there. And a big thanks to my patrons at Pints with Aquinas for making that possible. All right, here's the show. Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, the show where you Who's in your heart? We've been drinking wine and whiskey. Hey, we have the same last name. That's so cool. That's incredible. That's why I wanted you on the show.

I just thought it was such an amazing coincidence. I love it. Do you know, it has not been my last name my whole life. It's only been for the last almost 12 years. That's crazy because that's when I got married to you. What do you think about women who don't take their husbands last name? I feel like if you have a profession, like you're a famous singer or something, or I don't know, doctor or something. I feel like if you have a profession where like, okay, no, everyone already knows me by this name. I'm going to stick with it. But no, I think there's

something about becoming a new person. Like to the kids, I said, Cameron made her. They have no idea who she is. Like they only know me as Cameron Fradd. Like I've taken on a whole new... Identity? Identity. Yeah, that's pretty neat. Because of your relationship? Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. I'm really glad you took my name and I would have been super emasculated and offended if you didn't. So thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome. So we were having sushi tonight. It was delicious. And then what did we do? It wasn't as good as San Diego, though. We really missed San Diego. Nothing is better than San Diego. And then we decided to be practical on our date, so we pulled out a planner.

We are two of the least organized people on the planet, I think. That's probably true to say. True story, yeah. So we pulled out a planner, and we talked about our goals and what we want to do next. And then we went to HomeGoods and bought me stuff to help organize so I can get our bills paid. And when you said, why aren't you coming with me to HomeGoods? I said. Because you'd grow ovaries?

Correct. Because it's a super feminine store. Yeah. So you went over to Best Buy. Which seems way more manly. I guess. Was it? It was kind of a waste of time. Yeah. What about that other store that was over there?

What else? There was Dick's. That kind of sounds like a manly store. Wow. This is my wife, ladies and gentlemen. I've been trying to keep it classy for three years. I bring her on one night. It's not my fault.

That's actually the name of the store. I didn't create the name of the store. Yeah, if anyone's thinking of anything other than a man's name, it's the problems with you. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes. You could dress her up, but you can't do her up. So I know that you have been – so my wife, for those of you who aren't aware,

runs a really beautiful podcast for women. It's called Among the Lilies. And your tagline is for women who are tired of pretending and are ready to be real. And say a word about that and about this, you know, how you and others, you've had like Jackie Francois and Lisa McLaughlin talking about sex and stuff. Yeah. So I love it. It's pretty great. Yeah, it's basically I started it because I couldn't find a

podcast like it. I just wanted women being authentically real and honest and in the Catholic world, especially when I searched for that, there was like Catholic coffee talk and it was like, oh, ladies, I'm just going to be really real. I've been a bad wife this week and a bad mom. I didn't mop my floors. And I just don't like that. I really wanted to punch that woman in the face and be like, oh my goodness, do you have no idea that people have real problems and are struggling with real things, not their stupid floors? Yeah. And it just kind of made me angry. And I wanted something that wasn't there. And I just felt the Lord kind of calling me to do it.

Like, hello, Cameron, I've given you the gift of gab and there's a microphone in the basement. You might as well use it. And it's just been really beautiful. I feel like doing the episodes has really blessed me just taking an hour out of my week to sit down and have a chat with an amazing, beautiful, holy woman that I wouldn't make the time for necessarily. Like, a lot of these women are real-life friends, and I am just so busy being a mom, I wouldn't necessarily sit down and have an hour-long heart-to-heart, so it's been such a gift. And then, yeah, I've just gotten to chat with so many amazing, beautiful women, and a lot of us are extremely passionate about the theology of the body. And I actually just reposted something today.

There was a, I think the only other guy I've had on the show besides Matt is a priest, and he's from Haiti, and he's so beautiful. But I was talking about how when Father Lewis, shout out. Should we tell the embarrassing story? Wait, what? I don't know this. You know the story with San Diego. Oh, yes, do it, do it, do it.

We had Father Lewis over for dinner, and Father Lewis is a holy priest from Haiti. The two of us had spoken at Steubenville conferences in the past, and I said to Father Lewis, all right, here we go. I'm an idiot. All right? I'm an idiot. You're not. I thought that Haiti was in Africa. Okay? Fair enough. You're not from North America, so I feel like that's fair. Go ahead. I appreciate that.

So I looked at him and said, Father, how far would you say Haiti is from Uganda? And he looked at me and said, Oh, I don't know. It's a long, I mean, a long way. And I said, oh, yeah, yeah. The father was charitable enough not to just chalk up my stupid comment to my stupidity. He assumed I knew where Haiti was and was just asking a very interesting question.

So it would be like someone saying to me, Matt, how far is London from Sydney? And you thought London, you know, England was in Australia or something. And I said, oh, golly, I don't know. I mean, it's bloody far, but it's, you know, I don't know. Anyway, that was my embarrassing story. So you had Father Lewis on. Yes, and he was so beautiful. my embarrassing story. So you had Father Lewis on. Yes. And he was so beautiful. And I just tweeted something out today about how like when men get women wrong, they get them so wrong and they don't

understand. And hence like the Me Too movement and all of this stuff, right? Where women are mistreated by men and misunderstood. But I'm like, but when they get it right, like John Paul the Great, he got women way more than I think even women get themselves. And this Father Lewis is like this. And I was like, he understands a woman's heart, I think, even greater than a lot of women do. And he was just so beautiful and real. And we just did this episode on love and femininity, and it was just beautiful. He's just a beautiful, holy man. And why was I sharing about him?

We were talking about sex, were we? Yeah, oh, yeah. Good, yeah, sex. Yeah. Father Lewis. Father Lewis, speaking of sex, Father Lewis does not have sex, ever. Never has, never will. Praise God, he is married to the church.

But no, he was talking about how, yeah, he understood women so well. And I feel like if you're in, I feel like when you're married to the church, like there's a gift, there's a grace there. And I feel like he understands women. It's the same with John Paul the Great. I feel like people are like, I'm not gonna listen to some old celibate man. What does he know about sex? They obviously have not read the theology of the body. Like, I feel like the Holy Spirit, the guidance and just the wisdom that he had and just knowing the heart of a woman, like, it's just so beautiful and real. And I feel like in a good marriage too, I feel like you get to that point, like, you're

obviously way more intimate with this person than anyone else in the world, and you know a part of them that no one else sees or knows. And with that, you have the ability to help each other grow in holiness, but you also have the ability to hurt each other. I know that I'm guilty of this with you. I'm very sorry, honey. Please forgive me. But I feel like you're given this, I don't know, deeper, more intimate area because of the marital relationship. So, Aquinas is the most unsexy writer in the history of writers. I've said it a million times over.

Augustine is beautiful like a garden is beautiful. Aquinas is beautiful, at least when he writes the Summa Theologiae, like a legal document is beautiful. Now, that sounds like I'm mocking him, but I actually do mean it. I think you and I were reading over a legal document when we bought our house, and there's something beautiful to it in that it's very unambiguous. Every single word is there for a reason. And so, when Aquinas is going to talk about sex, same thing. So, I just want to look at a couple of things here in the supplementary section of the Summa Theologiae, and we can chat about them. So, and again, very unsexy, right? But we'll talk about it, and then we'll see what you have to say, Cammie, and then what John Paul II has to say. So, in, yeah, Matrimony and Nature,

John Paul II has to say. So, in, yeah, Matrimony and Nature, Supplementary Section, Question 41, and we're looking at like Article 2, 3, and 4. Well, the first question, like he's answering here in the third article is whether the marriage act is always sinful. So, like, we have to keep in mind that there were heretics, and still are perhaps perhaps who held to this view that the sexual act is a sinful act. So, let's just quickly get his answer. And what I love is how succinct he is. So, a syllogism is like an argument that has three, well, two premises and a conclusion. It's like saying, all men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal. And he does this so well here. So he says, no sin is a matter of precept, but the marriage act is a matter of precept. Therefore, it is not a sin.

I love it. He says, if we suppose the corporeal nature to be created by the good God, we cannot hold that those things which pertain to the preservation of the corporeal nature and to which nature inclines are altogether evil. Wherefore, since the inclination to beget an offspring whereby the specific nature is preserved is from nature, it is impossible to maintain that the act of begetting children is altogether unlawful, so that it be impossible to find the mean of virtue therein, unless we suppose, and I love how intense Aquinas gets here, because Aquinas never gets intense. So when he uses language like this, it's like, it means a lot. It's like a father. Unfortunately, I'm not this sort of father. It's like a father who never raises his voice, and then he does.

I raise my voice way too much, and so I miss the kind of dramatic factor because I'm always dramatic. Yep, that's true. My bad. He says, since the inclinable is audio and level, so that it is impossible to find the meaning of it unless we suppose that some are mad enough to assert. I love that. Unless we suppose that some are mad enough to assert

that corruptible things were created by an evil god, whence perhaps the opinion mentioned in the text is derived, wherefore this is a most wicked heresy. permissible and never meritorious because it is evil. And you're basing this on this idea that there's a good God and a bad God, right? This sort of dualism that would say that the body is good. Sorry, the body is evil and the spirit is good. He calls this a wicked heresy. And those who assert, he says, mad enough to assert. I just want to read this here. This is objection six in the third article and his response. So, here's the objection. Someone might say this, right? They could argue against sex and say, further, excess in the passions corrupts virtue. Now, there is always excess pleasure in the marriage act, so much so that it absorbs the reason, which is man's principal good. Wherefore, the philosopher says in the ethics that in that act, it is impossible to understand anything, which is a pretty good way of describing it. I mean, it's much better than getting drunk in my estimation anyway.

Therefore, the marriage act is always a sin. That's the objection. And he says, this is Aquinas' response, the excess of passion that corrupts virtue not only hinders the act of reason, but also destroys the order of reason. The intensity of pleasure in the marriage act does not do this, since although for the moment man is not being directed he was previously directed by his reason so in other words like uh the the sexual act could sort of can come about prior to the point of ecstasy so surely like at the point of ecstasy okay i'll grant you it's not like the reason's fully on board there and yet it was reason that directed the man and the woman to this act, and that this act is good.

And if you say it's inherently evil, then you're committing a wicked heresy because you're submitting to this sort of dualistic idea that the body's always bad. All right, just a few thoughts. Yeah, no, I think two things that pop in mind. One is what about the mystics? Like what about prayer and that intensity when you are praying and you are not in this world anymore, you know, and like you're levitating or what? I mean, yeah, you're in ecstasy. And it's like, oh, well, that's sinful and bad. That's too close to the Lord. And that's not okay. No one would say that.

And then the other is the intimacy. I feel like because sex is... Did you hit my head on the microphone, everybody? Continue. Did that hurt? Are you okay? A little bit, yeah. Because it's so intimate and it's so intense, it's like, oh, no, no, no, I don't want to feel that. I don't want to experience. It must be bad. It's not okay. But I think that it's like, you're denying what it is. I feel like because sex is so good and so holy and so beautiful

and it's good to desire, it's good to come together. I think that of course Satan's going to attack there, right? And be like, no, no, no, that's bad. Look, there's pornography. Look, there's fornication. Look, there's brothels, all these things. Like, look, sex is bad. And it's easier to be like, oh, okay, let's push that all down and let's say it's all bad and turn away versus separating the good and the true and the beautiful from the distortion of the good, true and beautiful. Amen. Yeah. And that reminds me of some people who would argue that sex was a result of the fall. Right. And so in question 42, in the second article, Aquinas addresses this head on.

And he just says this again in a syllogism, right? He says, so in response to those who would say, like, essentially that sex is a result of the fall, he would say, it is said, have you not read that he who made man from the beginning made them male and female? Further, Aquinas says, matrimony was instituted for the begetting of children, but the begetting of children was necessary to man before sin. Therefore, it behooved matrimony to be instituted before sin. And the very first commandment the Lord gives us is be fruitful and multiply. Therefore, it behooved matrimony to be instituted before sin. And the very first commandment the Lord gives us is be fruitful and multiply. Yeah, this is something I heard from Peter Kreeft, actually.

It's, where is it? Genesis chapter 1, verse 28. And I use it all the time. And I always try and give him credit there, not that he needs it. But yeah, the first commandment from God to humanity, Genesis chapter 1, verse 28, is be fruitful and multiply. And Peter Kreeft said quite winsomely, I don't think by that he meant grow pineapples and invent calculators.

No, he meant have sex, have babies and fill the world. So sex is good. And if it wasn't good, you couldn't make it ugly. This is true. If something is not good, it is in a sense ugly. But, you know, so you can't make rubbish ugly. Like you can't make a pile of garbage ugly. It just is ugly. And so if sex weren't beautiful in some sense,

you couldn't make it ugly, but you can make it ugly. Therefore, it is in some sense beautiful. And okay, one other thing, and then we can kind of move on from Aquinas a little bit here is he says also, not only is it not sinful, not only was it marriage institute for the beginning of children prior to the fall, but that it's meritorious. He says, every act whereby a precept is fulfilled is meritorious if it be done from charity. Now, such is the marriage act for it is He says, justice for it is called the rendering of a debt therefore it's meritorious let's talk about the debt thing for a bit can we you want to start no you go why because it's dangerous territory yeah gosh man i i think that a wife should not reject her husband or a husband reject his wife unless he has very good reason to do it headaches Headache's probably not a good reason, unless it's actually a headache. But I really feel like it is a debt owed to each other. I mean,

a debt might be a negative way to put it, right? So what we could say is, like, we've become one, and in a sense, like, you belong to me, and I belong to you. And if I desire out of love to give myself to you, or if you, or let's make this less personal, if a woman desires to give herself to her husband, unless he has good reason, maybe he thinks she's using him. And if he gets that, or if she gets that sense of him, then she shouldn't submit to that, right? Because she's allowing him to sin. But other than that, she needs to submit to him and he to her.

What do you think? I agree, but I think you also need to use prudence, right? So if they're at the grocery store and the desire's there, obviously not. Obviously. I didn't mean bloody that. Okay, well, I'm just saying. And then also, like, being mindful of where she is. Like, maybe she's fertile and has a newborn and now is not the time. She would be so overwhelmed and stressed out to have another baby told you this story, one of the sisters of life.

She met a husband who was bragging to her about his wife and their eight kids and how she homeschools them all, you know? And she said something like she wanted to slap him. And not because homeschooling is not very beautiful and meritorious, not because it's not meritorious to have a large family, but because she looked dead inside. you want to talk about that yes exhausted and dead and tired and just not fulfilled not loved um yeah not coming alive in her vocation at all but a slave to children and homeschooling and i homeschool there's nothing wrong with that um i am so good at homeschooling when i pay someone else to do it i have a tutor that i hire let me tell you i'm so good at homeschooling when I pay someone else to do it. I have a tutor that I hire. Let me tell you. Let me tell you.

I am so good at homeschooling. You should write a book, How to Crush Homeschooling. All about how to- Hire and pay someone else to do it. No, that's a really good point. And I'm glad you said that to balance it out. Because I think I'm trying to make a point that isn't often made. Yes.

Right? That like a woman, for example, shouldn't just reject her husband. I completely agree. She'd be wrong to do that. Yes, yes, yes. And vice versa. So I'm just trying to kind of push on that point that isn't often pushed on. Right. Right. Isn't often kind of emphasized. But your point is exactly right as well,

that it's an act of love to refrain, even if one has to refrain for months on end. Yes. Because, you know, a husband's wife might be, you know, emotionally, you know, what do you say, sort of on edge and that if she has another child, it's going to really... Put her over the top. Yeah. And then also just knowing, and I completely agree with you. I remember my best friend's grandmother, who I believe was a Christian. She wasn't Catholic, but she was a Christian.

And she said to her, she's like, just remember, never say no to your husband, never turn him away, always say yes. And she was like, okay. And it was just like a little awkward conversation from her grandmother, but her grandmother was just a beautiful, holy woman who loved. And my friend took it as, well, you and your husband have an amazing relationship and are so beautiful. And he was such a gentleman to her, you know, and I saw the way he interacted with her. And that was part of it. It's like, this is something that you get to give of yourself, a way that you get to love your spouse and give yourself to him totally and completely and meet needs. Yes, but also just become more, I don't know, more human, more... I feel like when

the two become one flesh, I feel like there is an encounter of the divine, right? And I think that it does help you grow in holiness and it helps you better love each other. I actually was thinking about doing an episode soon on Ephesians 5, because it's been, I have a Facebook group of about 4,000 women and something that someone brought up recently was Ephesians 5. And they were like, explain this to me. I don't know how, she's like, I think I get it. We had that at our marriage. I know, that's what I was going to say. No, no, no.

No, no, no. I have nothing to say except, right, wives submit to your husband as to the Lord. Yes. Right. And sometimes I feel like I need to remind you of that. And that's when I punch you in the arm because I love you so much. It reminds me of that scene from, what was it? A Man for All Seasons? I don't know. Where St. Thomas More says to his wife,

Mind your house, woman! Yes, yes. Yeah, I feel like I say that to you a lot. You do. We have a weird relationship though. Most people, if they tried to do what we do, would destroy their marriage But it works for us Well, we'll see

So far, 12 years in What's difficult, right, is you want to emphasize both ends of this spectrum You know, getting back to what I said a moment ago Can we go through Ephesians 5 first before we do that? Let me get the Bible. Okay. Well, you can get the Bible, but let me just sum it up, kind of. Okay.

So, it says, husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the church. Women, you know, love. You can read it word for word. This is why I needed to get the Bible. Women. Hey, y'all women. Y'all ladies, listen up. You are to submit to your husbands.

And yeah, you can read the word for it. This is from the New Jerusalem Bible. Sometimes it's nice to get a different sort of translation. Husbands should love their wives just as Christ loved the church and sacrificed himself for her, to make her holy by washing her in cleansing water with a form of words so that when he took the church to himself she would be glorious with no speck of wrinkle or anything like that but holy and faultless in the same way husbands must love their wives as they love their own bodies for a man to love his wife is for him to love himself a man never hates own body, but he feeds it and looks after it.

And that is the way Christ treats the church, because we are part of his body. This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and the two become one flesh. I love this bit. This mystery has great significance, but I'm applying it to Christ and the church. To sum up, you also, each one of you must love his wife as he loves himself and let every wife respect her husband. So the bit that most people object to is wives should be submissive or subject to their husbands. Wives should be subject or submissive to their husbands as to the Lord. Since as Christ is the head of the church and saves the whole body, so is a husband the head of his wife,

and the church is subject to Christ, so should wives. Now, look, if you're a Christian, you've got to believe that. Yes, and I do believe it. You've got to submit to the Word of God. Yes, I do. But I also think it needs to be defined more, right? So it's saying, yeah, like husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. How did Christ love the

church? That right there, the crucifix, he poured his life out. He said, this, I give myself to you totally and completely. He died on a cross because he loves us. So, husbands, that's what you should do for love of your bride. Say, this is my body given up for you. I find one way that I feel like I really emulated this in our marriage is through childbirth. I'm a horrible pregnant person. I'm so bad. And I had C-sections and I felt like, especially towards the end of my pregnancies, I have all these contractions and I get hospitalized and it's just not pretty. And then I get sliced open, which is also not fun. But I feel like my whole prayer that whole time is,

this is my body given up for you. For love of my husband and for love of my child, this is my body given up for love of you. And I feel like if a man, if you read that and you look to the crucifix and you look to Christ and it's like, okay, yes, I'm willing to let you do that for me, even though that's really hard to accept.. Like you're going to love me so much that you're willing to die. Right. Exactly. And this is what I think a lot of women miss. Like maybe you're a woman who's been in relationship with men who have abused you or walked over you or have, you know, taken advantage of you. So to hear submit to your husband, it sounds like somebody saying,

be okay with it being a doormat. Right. Right. Right? And that's not- That's not, that's totally awful. And if a man were to say to me, you know, submit, look at that, you'd be like, all right, that's true. But you need to spend some time meditating on what it means to love your wife like Christ loved the church. Because just reading that out loud embarrasses me because I fail drastically at that every day. And I don't mean that in a pious,

humble way. I mean, no, that's just true. Maybe it's humble, but it's not humiliating. I'm not being hyperbolic here. I am really bad at this. But then I suppose it's also true that if I love you like Christ loved the church, and when I do, you probably find it a lot easier to submit to me, don't you? Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. When I can see that it is the good of our family and the good of our marriage, and that is the... And I think it's good too, like that the man should like lead the household in prayer. Yeah, you do a great job of that. The man should do that. And the woman should submit to that and allow that. job but the man should do that and the woman should submit to that and and allow that agreed but if he is not going to take that role i think she should still play with the kid pray with the

kids of course yeah of course but no i guess we're talking about ideal situations aren't we yeah but back to that sex stuff earlier you know i was talking about how you want to push on two important points one important point is you know no man should lust after a woman, no woman should lust over a man. No, if a woman, you know, wants to, right, fornicate with her boyfriend, by the way, we need to bring back the old words, I think. Fornicate, sodomy, self-abuse. You're listening Catholics, I want to bring these words back. Because when we adopt the society's words for these evil actions, we tend to start thinking that they're less evil than they are. But to fornicate is to commit an evil act. To commit the act of sodomy, anal sex, is to commit an evil act.

To masturbate, right? We used to call that self-abuse. It is a sense of self-abuse. I think we should, I'm going to start doing that. I've been thinking about this for a while. We're going to bring those words back. But anyway, sex. Yeah. So you both have to be there, right? So it's like if you cannot submit to your wife or to your husband if they want to take advantage of you in an obvious way.

I suppose you could be overly scrupulous or critical of your husband. But at the same time, like you should submit to your husband. And I know if like for me as a man and for men in general, men tend to experience love through that sexual act. Like that's how they give and actually receive love. And look, I'm just speaking as a man because I'm not a woman, actually. But like for a man to be denied that act of love, it's like saying, well, I'll just love you in other ways. Like, well, that's great for you, isn't it? But that's actually not how I receive love. And it really- Bacon and eggs isn't the equivalent.

It's not the bloody equivalent. It's all right. Getting you a beer. No, not the equivalent. You know, know because sometimes Like women You could hear a wife Saying to her husband It feels like that's All you want me for And he's like Okay well what do you want to do?

Well let's just Like we need to talk And then the husband Could just as easily Turn around and say Well it feels like That's all you want me for You just want me to be

Kind of like your girlfriend And you just get to Kind of Chat Chat Yeah Like Do you see what I'm saying?

I feel like, I feel like the thing that's hard is when a marriage is, um, when there's some tension there, I feel like the female and most marriages are like, okay, we need to talk this out and then we can be physical. And the husband's like,

we just need to have sex and then we'll be able to talk all, all about it. And I think both of them think, okay, we just need to come together first. And I think they're both right in some aspect, but it's like, no, no, no, I need you to do this first. No, I need you to do this. And so it's that give and take of like, okay, we need to come together. We do need to connect. We need to do it verbally and physically. So how can we make this happen? In your experience, because you've done these different podcasts that you call everything you want to know about sex but were too afraid to ask. And you've interviewed women who have suffered like abuse in the past or have struggled with pornography themselves or couldn't even consummate the marriage until years after because they couldn't open and these sorts of things.

Like what are women saying about this? You know, about the importance of... I don't know. I guess I feel like if you look at society... This is all based on personal experience, but it kind of felt like in the 90s, a lot of it was like, screw the man. He's just like all out for sex.

Don't actually screw him. Forget him is more of what they're saying. Whereas, like, women today, like, if you watch, like, music clips, they're essentially glorified whores who don't make money. Like, that's essentially what hip-hop music is today, a lot of it. Like, there's some stupid song right now about a woman saying, God's a woman. And it's all, what she means is, I'm God because I'm going to have sex with you

and you're going to think I'm God. So she's clearly a stupid idiot, not intelligent enough to be offensive. But the point is, so it's almost like you've got this like vulgarity on the side of women now who are saying like they want to act like unpaid whores, just like they used to accuse men of being pimps back in the day. Right. I think that there is, and interject if I'm not answering your question, but I think that there is, I think we live in a time that everyone thinks it's okay to talk about sex and we talk about it so much and we're like, look at us, we're so open and accepting and sex is fluid and it's everything and it's nothing and it doesn't matter what your gender is, but it, you know, and just do what you want with your body and virginity is just something to be gotten rid of and it's like

there's this freedom but then if you actually talk about what sex is or you talk about the beauty of marriage it's like oh tmi tmi oh my goodness why why are you going there why are you that's that's too much that's a great point can i share a story when i got married i shared with somebody who was a catholic and uh he was asman. And I said how our wedding night was really beautiful. And I said, there wasn't an ounce of lust. It was a joyful, full giving, you know? And he, the Catholic said, that's amazing. And I remember later on speaking- And he was not married and not in a sexual relationship. That's right. Yeah. Now, I want to be careful here because I don't want to mention names. But then later on, you know, at a totally different point, I was talking to somebody, a friend who was, I think they were living with their girlfriend. And they certainly weren't Christian. And I said the same thing.

I said, yeah, on our wedding night, it was a beautiful thing. And he said, oh, wow, way too much information. Now, here's a guy who openly, like, you know, watches porn, wow, way too much information. Now, here's a guy who openly watches porn, but it was too much information. And I wanted to say, who's liberated here? Yeah. And I think that's part of it. And I think that's the beauty of the sex series that we've been doing. I have this sex series that I decided to do. And because so many women kept reaching out, I felt like I was having these same conversations over and over again. And a lot of it was Matt and I worked for Net Ministries, and we supervised these young adults. And I was a youth minister. And I feel like I had these girls

come out of nowhere as they were getting ready to get married. And they were like, I need advice. What do I do? What do I say? What's this? And have questions early on in marriage. And I was like, you know what? There should be something for them. And so, I interviewed amazing, beautiful, holy, wise, wise women. And it's been really beautiful. I thought I did this series for newlyweds. That was like my intention. But it's actually blessed so many women. And some of them are single and they said, this is the sex that I never had, or this is the theology of the body that I need. I need to have this intimate conversation. And people have said like, I've never heard people

talk so much about sex and be intimate in the conversation, but go through no details or such little details. Yeah, no, that's really great. You've read some of those emails to me of people who were saying, yeah, I didn't think you could be this raw and this respectful and uphold the tremendous dignity of the sexual act. I love what you said a moment ago, that it's like our society says, sex is everything and sex is nothing. So I wanted to ask you, like, how then does one begin to talk about the importance of sex in a sexual age? Because people have been hurt sexually, right? So that even to bring the topic up is to court controversy and is to offend people. I'm sure I'll get some emails from people who have been very offended by this episode. And I pray that it's not because

we spoke, you know, imprudently, if we have, God have mercy, but I think also because people have been hurt and that people don't even know how to say the word penis and vagina without feeling awkward. And I think a lot of that comes back to our own wounds, you know? So how do you begin to talk about sex with your girlfriend, say, or a man with his friends in a way that, uh, you know, isn't glorifying fornication, isn't like, you know, falling into what the world's messed up view of sex is. Um, it's, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's by being real and raw with those closest to you. Like, I think we all have our own tribe, right? We have our own people. We have those that are closest to us that we can talk to and be real with.

And obviously, you wouldn't bring it. I feel like I have a lot of women that talk to me about their marriages and intimate things in their marriages because, and they're always awkward bringing it up. Like, it's like, so I don't want you to think my husband's a bad guy, but he kind of looked at pornography and like want to move on. I'm like, oh my goodness, we're real life friends. And you know, we actually have a book on this. And like, this has been a struggle in the past. Like, I'm happy to talk to you about it. I know your husband's a great guy, you know? And I feel like it's taking that leap of faith and having someone that we can be real with and honest with and not being afraid to share more vulnerably and also to receive that. And I feel like that's why I love like Father Lewis or Father Bill or these priests that are just, Father Sean, you know, these priests

that are just willing to go there and just be honest and real from the pulpit. And then also there's so many lay people like the Theology of the Body Institute and Christopher West. And I think listening to that and letting that sink in and hear it and really praying through that and letting that be the message that we hear and not the body is bad, sex is bad. I one time overheard, and I wish I corrected the woman in the moment, but I didn't. Beautiful, good Catholic mom who homeschools her kids. And the daughter said something about, the kids were playing in a waterfall type thing. And it was probably my kids. Somebody was like kind of stripping off their clothes. And it was probably my kid. Somebody was like kind of stripping off their

clothes. And it was probably like my two-year-old. But her daughter was like, no, no, no, body bad. Naked's naughty. And she's like, that's right. Naked's naughty. It was someone that I was with. And I was just shocked by it. I was like, oh my goodness. And she's like, that's right. We teach them right from a young age. And I wish I didn't correct her because I was just really shocked by it. But I was like, no, no, no. Naked's not naughty. Like, we teach our kids like your body is good. And yes, you need to respect it and wear clothes around other friends and things like this, you know, but yeah, I feel like it's easy to go to that mindset. So, I think it depends on where you are. I feel like you need to be comfortable and reading things like the Song of Songs, like reading that and not blushing. Like, I feel like exposing yourself to the true beauty of sex and the body. Well, we've both had powerful experiences of the theology of the body in our part. I feel like people who are Catholic and who are our age and who have been

Catholic for, you know, like 20 years or 15 years or so, have all kind of like had some encounter with John Paul II's theology of the body and many of them because of the work of Christopher West. So, I know both you and I have an experience of hearing Christopher West. When you heard it, you got angry. When I heard it, I was crying. And this was just like so funny. When people knew us, you know, me crying, you getting angry, like really, not surprising.

But why don't you talk about that? Remember those videos you said you were watching? Yeah. Yeah. So, I was 19 years old, and I was a missionary in Canada. And there was these VHS tapes to tell you how old I was. And they just said, Theology of the Body. And I put it on, I was up sick late one night, and I was like, oh, I'll see what this is. And I was like, oh my goodness, what is this? There's all these naked pictures. Ah, what is this? And I just turned it off because I was kind of embarrassed. And I was like, oh my goodness. And so, the next day I asked someone, I'm like, hey, where did those movies

come from? And like, oh, father brought it over. Like the priest brought those videos. I don't know. Explain that the naked pictures weren't like actual photographs. No, they were beautiful, I'm saying that the naked pictures weren't like actual photographs. No, they were beautiful artistic paintings and marble statues. It was beautiful. Just my mindset wasn't in a spot to see it. How does that say so? Yeah, right?

I saw it as naked and naughty and bad. So, the next night I put them on again and I watched and it was this guy talking about the theology of the body. It was Christopher West. And he just went on and on on the beauty of the body and how we see God in and through the naked body. And as he went on, I was furious. And I was like, what the heck? Where was this five years ago? You know, like I, I very much was a product of my culture and I found my worth in my body, but not in the, my body, the way that he saw my body or the way he was talking about the body, but by how much I could get guys to look at me, you know, just not the right mindset at all. And I was angry and I was furious and I was like, why did no one explain this to me? Like this, this isn't fair. And I spent the next, I don't know, three nights, I like was up all night

watching these videos and it was like early on with his talks and I was just so moved and I was like, why does no one know this? And so, I felt like I took it on as my mission to try to explain and I knew nothing, but I was 19, so I thought I understood everything. Therefore, I'm more of an expert than Christopher West on the theology of the body, because I'm 19 and I listen to his talk, right? So, a friend of mine would joke, she's like, why is it that we like go out to pubs and somehow you have the most attractive guys coming around and you're explaining the theology of the body to them at the pub, at the bar? I'm like, I have no idea. It's totally the Holy Spirit.

Whereas my experience, for some reason, when I was serving with Net Ministries and somebody gave me a Christopher West CD. It was me? I gave it to you. No, you gave me Jason Everett CD. That changed my life. And now he's the godfather of our child. It's funny how things come together like that. But when somebody gave me a Christopher West CD, I remember this must have been the evil one or something preventing me, but I was like, nah, I don't like his voice. What? You don't like his voice? I like him as well.

Oh my gosh, God have mercy. But anyway, when I started listening to Christopher West's Explaining the Theology of the Body, I was laying in bed in Brisbane, listening to like a six-part CD series. You know, somebody lent me. I was laying in bed crying because I couldn't remember hearing anything so beautiful before. I've had this experience a number of times. Speaking of sex and John Paul II, when John Paul II was a cardinal, Carol Wojtyla, he wrote a book called Love and Responsibility. Towards the end, he's talking about the sexual act, and he says a really beautiful thing that I know some of our listeners are going to be aware of, and some of them aren't, because we have, of course, many wonderful evangelical listeners and people perhaps who've never

heard of Theology of the Body. But the Pope said that the husband should take the curve of arousal and the differences in the curve of arousal between man and woman into consideration. And that one practical way that he can love his wife is to lead her to climax. He doesn't stop there. Imagine if most of the world knew this, they would fall over because they thought the church was anti-sex. He is the Pope, not only saying that a husband should love his wife. and one of the ways he can do that in the sexual act is to lead her to climax. He says, but whenever possible, they should orgasm at the same time. That's John Paul II. That is Carol Wojtyla. And he then says, not out of hedonistic reasons. In other words, this isn't out of

hedonism, like a desire for pleasure. This is altruism. What he means is the reason I want this for my wife is for her good, right? Not for my good only, but to love, to will the good of the other as other, which is just a beautiful thing. I love that so many feminists yell things. And I think the true nature of the word feminism, I also am a feminist to mean, you know, to love, to think that women are, have great dignity and all these things and have rights and all this stuff. But I think that so many people today are like, okay, no, no, no. I'm not listening to some old celibate man in Rome tell me what to do. Like, keep your rosaries off my ovaries or all these things they shout,

right? And it's like, I'm sorry, did you hear what he just said? He was just saying that your lover should lead you to climax at the same time as him. He's helping improve your sex life. Like, listen, this is amazing and beautiful and good. It's not, no, no, sex is bad now. Which I feel like we were, I mean, I guess, I don't know if you were raised with that. I was raised with that. Like, I was raised with sex is bad. Don't do it. You weren't?

Not at all. Yeah. No, not at all. People are going to misunderstand what I'm about to say. And they're going to get offended. But for the rest of you, I feel like my parents were so great. I feel like they would have done me more of a disservice if they had have been the puritanical type

who freaked out and never spoke about the body and said sex is bad. Then if, I mean, the way they are. I mean, my parents are like pretty open about how much they love each other. It's really kind of great. Like even as a kid, you know they are. I mean, my parents are like pretty open about how much they love each other. It's really kind of great. Like even as a kid, you know, my mum might say, your father and I are going away for the weekend, so if you know what I'm saying. And we're like, oh, for goodness sake, I know what you're saying.

Shut up. It's really gross. Or, you know, they would joke about those sorts of things, you know. Now, they made mistakes for sure, you know, when they would perhaps buy me movies that were inappropriate or they would be aware of me looking at things that I shouldn't be looking at and they didn't freak out about those things. And when they – they really should have corrected me sternly. But, hey, all parents make mistakes. We're parents.

I make mistakes every day. So, this isn't me kind of trying to make my parents feel bad or say stuff about my parents. But, you know, they really did set an example. So I never had this idea that sex was bad at all. If I ever got the idea that sex was bad, it was from porn. Porn, Christopher West says, and he said this to me in a Denny's diner. I love Christopher West. And I really don't like when people crap on Christopher West.

Can I just say that for a second? It's like people have this litmus test for what makes them an Orthodox Catholic. I'm against Lifeteen. I'm against Christ. It's like, what have you done for the church exactly? Just you tell me that for, anyway, that's a whole other discussion. I love Christopher West. And we were at a Denny's diner and we were talking about pornography.

And he said to me, and he came up with this on the spot. He said, pornography is a hellish mockery of a heavenly reality. How powerful is that? Porn is a hellish mockery of a heavenly reality. So, porn taught me that sex was bad. The whole point is it's like illicit and dirty and bad. Where did I get those ideas from? It was from porn for all its quote unquote exposure. It didn't show me enough. It just allowed me to see through a keyhole, as it were, to this narrow vision of sexuality, where it was when I came into the church when I was 17, that I had my eyes opened and I was able to see it for what it was, at least to a greater degree. That's beautiful. That's so, so good. But yeah,

I think for other people where they, and I interviewed a friend in this where it's like, sex is bad, sex is bad. Don't do it till you get married. Okay, you're getting married, go do it. And it's like, wait, you told me this was a bad thing. Now I met the man I love and want to spend the rest of my life with and now I'm supposed to do this bad thing? This doesn't make sense. to spend the rest of my life with and now I'm supposed to do this bad thing? This doesn't make sense. Versus it's so good and it's so amazing and so beautiful and it's meant for the marriage act. You know, like you stand before all your families and your friends and you say, this is my body given up for you. I give myself to you totally and completely and I want our love to be fruitful and I will be faithful for you all the days of our

lives. And then you say that with your body, you know, it's just so beautiful and good and holy. I'm trying to look for this one section. I remember I was reading about this on an airplane somewhere in the Summa Theologiae, and goodness, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to find it. somewhere in the Summa Theologiae. And goodness, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to find it. But, you know, Aquinas even went so far as to say that sex was more pleasurable before the fall. Because our body and our emotions were in sync, you know? So, you know, not only does Aquinas say sex isn't bad,

not only does he say it's meritorious and that it wasn't like a result of the fall, but he says, and not only does he say that the pleasure involved in copulation is, you know, makes it less good, but that he says that after the fall, it became less pleasurable. It makes you think, wow, Adam and Eve, man, woo, that must've been great. Yeah. I think even just the possibility. So like Eve never had to think about Eve, right? She only had to think about Adam. And she knew that Adam willed the good of her.

And I feel like that's the beauty. I've heard that like sex is like a fine wine. It gets better with age. What's the saying? I'm going to totally. Sure, that's fine with me. I butcher sayings all the time. saying i'm going to totally sure that's fine with me i butcher sayings all the time but something about like as wine ages it's more full body and delicious and yummy or something i don't know

but that sex is the same like the longer you are married and i love seeing older couples that are just so madly in love and you could see it you know and they don't take themselves too seriously and i think that they trust the other so much because they've loved them so well for so many years. I only have anecdotal evidence of this, but I've heard of people who have referenced sort of, you know, academic journals, which have shown that like for a woman to be able to climax, she needs to be comfortable. Like for a dude, like there's not a lot going on in his mind. You know, whereas for a woman, there's a million and one things going on in her mind and if she's like self-conscious of how she looks how she's perceived whether she feels attractive yes um that that's really gonna get in the way so all the studies i'm seeing is like if you want good sex then marriage yes agreed so go get married guys out there if you're you know you saw pretty girl than marriage. Yes. Agreed.

So go get married. Guys out there, if you're, you know, you saw a pretty girl, go ask her on a date, see how it goes and then marry her. But we just have such a,

we just have a beautiful message to give to the world here. And I really do think that John Paul, it was George, no, George Weigel, yeah,

who said that John Paul II's Theology of the Body is a theological time bomb set to go off with dramatic consequences in the 21st century or something like that. I mean, it is the response to the quote-unquote sexual revolution, which was really a sexual devolution, which made us unhappy, unhealthy, and fragmented. Any final thoughts? Tell us a bit more about your podcast and how ladies in particular can find it. Yeah, it's called Among the Lilies, so you can check it out there. I have all sorts of topics and interviews. And there's actually quite a lot of guys that listen to, I think they mean like you and me episodes. But you have to be a really manly guy to listen. I don't know why,

but the guys I've met are like covered in tats and have these huge beards. I'm like, dude, love the podcast. It's great. And I'm like, you were so not who I had in mind when I was recording. But it's really beautiful and awesome. And these women are really real. And we get into a lot of topics and issues. And we talk about sex and we talk about natural family planning and we talk about anxiety and postpartum and um yeah just all all sorts of struggles in life and it's just being really real so um feel free there's an instagram among underscore the underscore lilies there's a facebook group called among the Lilies. 4,000 women? Yep, 4,000 women. It's a closed group. So if you're a guy and you can follow the page,

but if you ask to join the group, we will say no. And my girls are like trolls, man. They are good at spotting a guy. Like I guess I've accidentally approved a couple. I don't do the approving anymore. I have other ladies that do that for me. Thank you, ladies. But I'll get like a random text or be like, oh, I saw a guy. There's a guy on this page and here's his info. And yeah, oh yeah, we get them out quick. They're amazing, beautiful women that just love one another and inspire one another and really just help each other be fully alive and support each other. I feel like as women, so often we can, so often we're our own worst enemies and we could tear each other apart and rip each other,

tear each other down or rip each other apart. But the Among the Lilies ladies are beautiful and very encouraging and uplifting and supportive. So yeah, if you don't have lovely ladies in your life and you'd like them, go to the Facebook page. And I'd recommend to everyone listening to go check out what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say on the beauty of sexuality. You could go to part three, Life in Christ, section two, the Ten Commandments, and look at chapter two, You Shall Love Your Neighbors Yourself, article six. So, the paragraph would be beginning like two, three, three, one. That's where you want to start. And it's just a powerful read. So, the paragraph would be beginning like 2, 3, 3, 1. That's where you want to start.

And it's just a powerful read. Honestly, just pour yourself a cup of coffee and just spend 15 minutes reading through this. And I think you'll be really blessed by it. I was going to say severely blessed, but that sounded a bit weird. I also think if there's anything that we said that's offended you or upset you, I would really take it to prayer before emailing. Feel free to bombard Matt with hate mail. But before that, I would really just take it to prayer and say, Lord, what in this is making me angry? What in this is making me upset? Please take that and untwist it, Lord. Show me the truth. Show me the beauty. Show me the beauty of sexuality. Show me the beauty of the human person. Show me the beauty of my own body and the truth of sexuality and the way you made us. Like the Lord made us male and female. Yeah. Viva la difference. Men can't magically become women

and women can't magically become men. Which it's funny that that should be such a you know controversial thing to say today we there's not much soil in the brains of an addict for logic to grow out of and so we shouldn't expect much logic in the discourse that we're having with the our society or our culture how you're going to frame it when it comes to sexuality? I mean, we've got a society that says, you know, they say men and women are merely social constructs. Like they don't exist in reality. It's just entirely fabricated. And at the same time, they make a big deal about saying it's an actual fact of reality that this man who decided that now a woman is an actual woman. This is a whole other discussion. If you want to learn more about this sort of stuff, gosh, what's his name? I'm going to get this before I go. Here, you talk while I look it up.

Ryan Anderson. Remember I told you about this guy? Oh, yeah. He's incredible. Absolutely incredible. Ryan T t anderson he has a new book that just came out when harry became sally responding to the transgender movement i beg you to get that book or to get it on audible so you can listen to it and if you won't do that because you don't have the money because you're giving it to pines with aquinas on patreon like an awesome human being then you should uh download the talk go to go listen with Aquinas on Patreon like an awesome human being, then you should download the talk. Go listen to his talk on YouTube.

He is fantastic, and he's able to really talk about this issue in a way that brings more light than heat, you know? I'll just go look. Christopher West is amazing and awesome, and you should totally look him up too. Yeah, completely agree. All right, Cameron Fradd,

lovely to have you on the show. Hey, thanks for having me i really appreciate you inviting me over and down the stairs to your office love the wine thank you bye thank you very much for listening to this week's episode of pints with aquinas i hope you enjoyed it i hope it was enlightening a couple of things i want to ask you to do before you go if you haven't yet reviewed pints with aquinas on itunes or wherever listen to your podcasts, would you do that? It really helps us get the word out. We really appreciate them. And I do read the reviews and gee, it's really humbling to see a lot of the good reviews there and, you know, nice and humiliating to get some of the bad ones. No. And also, if you want to become a supporter of Pints with Aquinas because, you know, you love the show, you want to see it thrive, you want to become a supporter of Pines with Aquinas because you know you love the

show you want to see it thrive you want to see us to do want to see us do a lot more work and goodness knows we have a lot more in store go to patreon.com slash matt frad or just go to pineswithaquinas.com and click donate once you go to that page you'll see all the free gifts I'm not going to tell you what they are I want you to go see them for yourself all those free gifts that I'm going to give you in return for choosing to support Pints with Aquinas. We really appreciate your support. As I say, it enables us to do a lot of these cool things. We've got a lot of big plans that I know a lot of you are familiar with and have been writing to me about and I'm pretty pumped. So, okay. Yeah, that's it, man. Chat with you next week. Bye. Thank you. Who's gonna survive? Who's gonna survive?

Who's gonna survive?