Pints With Aquinas - 125: How to order your life, with Fr. Ryan Mann

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name's Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today, we're joined around the bar table by Father Ryan Mann to discuss one of Aquinas' most beautiful prayers. It's called Prayer for the Wise Ordering of One's Life. So, if you wanted spiritual direction from Thomas Aquinas, meditating upon this prayer would be a cool way to go about it. All right, good to have you back here at Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a bustle, next to the angelic doctor, to discuss theology and philosophy. Great to have you with us.

Starting point is 00:00:52 Hey, you might not know this, but we have a website. It's called pintswithaquinas.com. And if you go there, it's a beautiful site. And you'll see we have a whole Ask a Thomist section where you can write in your question and have it answered by a Dominican priest or an apologist, someone who is a big fan of Thomas Aquinas. We have several questions that have been asked there already. Stuff like, why can't human reason comprehend God? And why do contingent beings need a necessary being here and now? And

Starting point is 00:01:22 why can there be only one ultimate reality that is pure being itself? Many people have written in, and unfortunately, we can't possibly get to everyone's question because so many of you have written, but we do choose the ones that are the most common, you know, so we choose those ones and answer them. So, check that out. Also, we have a join a chapter. So, we have Pints with Aquinas chapters around the country and the world. If you want to join, go to click that page. Maybe there's one in your area. If there's not, only patrons are allowed to be Pints with Aquinas chapter directors. So, if you are a patron of Pints with Aquinas, shoot me a message. I'll give you further details. But basically, you know,

Starting point is 00:02:00 if you want to be a Pints with Aquinas chapter director, you would be hosting these events, maybe at a pub, maybe at your house. Y'all get together, drink beer and read and discuss good literature. What a cool thing, huh? Friendship, good literature, good beer. Can't get much better than that. So, go check out pineswithaquinas.com. Big thanks to everybody who is supporting the show. Honestly, if you haven't yet supported Pines with Aquinas, please do that now. Go to pineswithaquinas.com and click donate. You can give me 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, or even less. And, you know, I give you a bunch of free stuff in return. And that really does enable me to continue this show and to continue doing the great stuff that I have planned for the future. So big thanks

Starting point is 00:02:37 to all of you who've done that. I love Father Ryan Mann. Okay, there I said it. He is one of the most awesome human beings that I have ever met in my life. You know, we're both the same age. We're both 35 years old. He's super, you know, he's way more holy than I am. He's super smart. He's just a humble, good man who loves Jesus Christ. And I always love having him on the show. And today we have him on the show to discuss a very beautiful prayer by Thomas Aquinas. It's one translated by Paul Murray in his new book, Aquinas at Prayer, the Bible, Mysticism, and Poetry. Obviously, it's been translated many times prior to this, but this is a beautiful translation. So, we're going to go through this prayer, okay?

Starting point is 00:03:17 And then at the end of the episode, I will read it with some beautiful background music, and you'll be able to feel really spiritual and stuff. At least that's the hope. I know my Australian accent might butcher it, but I'll do my best to read it prayerfully. And that'd be a nice way to conclude the episode, I think. All right, here's the show. Enjoy. Father Ryan Mann, thanks for joining us on Pines with Aquinas.

Starting point is 00:03:40 Hey, great to be back. Thank you. You just moved parish. Is this the first parish you've ever moved? That's correct, yeah. So it's my first move as a priest. Is that a super weird experience? Well, yes and no. Our diocese here in Cleveland, they took good care of us,

Starting point is 00:03:54 but they have a workshop about transitions, and they bring a psychologist to just notice what are some pitfalls, and then our bishop actually spent the day with us. This is what happens if you have millennial priests. You need to bring in a psychologist to help them cope with a move up the road. No, it's true. I'm joking. I'm joking.

Starting point is 00:04:11 No, but it's kind of true. Like, it was weird because the psychologist was really good, a kind guy, very wise. He went, like, on this hour-long things to notice and when you're starting to live in, like, a tense life. And when he was all done, our bishop was like, that was really good. And then he's like, guys, I just want to let you know, like, you're not the only ones who move, like lay people move all the time because of job transfers. And he kind of just was like, like, like so non-millennial, you know, he's just like, you're not that special. But you know, it was super helpful that the bishop said the line.

Starting point is 00:04:42 Well, okay. But was there anything that the psychologist said that you're like, wow, I'm glad he said that because that's helpful? Yeah. He just said notice like he kind of took a – what do you take? Like a golf ball and he threw it at a guy in the room, not hard. And the guy like caught it real quick and he said, what made you catch that real quick? And he's like, well, I thought something was coming at me. And he goes, right. And he talked about how like your heart rate goes up and all these things. He says,

Starting point is 00:05:06 if you get tensed or stressed or overworked, your body lives in that posture. Wow. And he talked about how there's that posture of like hyper alert. Oh my gosh. It's so tough. And he says, when you live in that place, you can't pray well, you can't eat well, you can't work out, you have trouble connecting. He goes, you start breaking down. He goes, you just want to notice everything when you're going through a transition. Am I all tensed? Are my shoulders tense? Am I on edge?

Starting point is 00:05:31 And be very careful that you don't live there for too long. I would suspect that there could be an argument that could be made about how the internet is doing that to all of us. is doing that to all of us. Like we are continually having things binging and buzzing and retweeting and responses to us and all the time. And I wonder if that is in part due to what we hear about being the rise in anxiety in young people especially. That's a great example. Do you remember when we were young?

Starting point is 00:06:00 Because you and I are the same age. I'm 35. How old are you? 35, yeah. Yeah. Do you remember like growing up? I mean, I know everybody's youth felt a little romantic and beautiful in the sense of the days were longer and those sorts of things.

Starting point is 00:06:12 But I really do think that the reason everything feels so rushed and angry is because of the internet. I'm not great at it, but I try for the first hour of my day and the last hour of my day, no technology. I'm not great at it, but I try. That's really good. It's so important. Or else you just play defense, you know?

Starting point is 00:06:29 Right. No, totally. And it's, I mean, as a priest, it's how I try to stay in touch with some sort of inner life because all those bings and dings and everything, it really draws you like outside of yourself, not in a self-giving way, but a distracted way. And so like this way, in the first hour and last hour of the day, I'm able to at least, like, have a sense of self and what's going on with me and where's my heart at and things like that. You know, we didn't plan this, but that really

Starting point is 00:06:54 does lead us into the topic we want to discuss today, and that's Aquinas' prayer for the wise ordering of one's life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think the Latin is it conceda mici? I'm not sure. A plus G, I don't know. Yeah, I probably mispronounced that, but prayer for the wise ordering of one's life. I just sent you a new translation. This comes from Paul Murray in his new book, Aquinas at Prayer, The Bible, Mysticism and Poetry. Father Paul Murray, who's a Dominican, is also a poet, and his translation of this prayer is absolutely beautiful. Yeah, I was rereading it, and yeah, much different than the other one you sent me.

Starting point is 00:07:27 Right. Yeah, it's beautiful. If you read them side by side, you can see that they're the same prayer, but it's just so much better translated, I think. So, here's what I was thinking and you tell me if you got a different idea, maybe we could read through this prayer chunk by chunk and just discuss what we're getting out of it or what struck us or how we can apply it to our lives? Yeah, I think that'd be great. Chunk by chunk, and then at the end, pause for a minute, and then maybe invite you listeners and you and I, Matt, to actually pray it. So like, we'll just read it chunk by chunk, and then at the end, we'll pause

Starting point is 00:07:56 for a moment. And just if you're in a coffee shop or in your car, just pause for a moment, and then we'll transition to actually praying it. That's really beautiful. Yeah, great idea. And then what I'll do for the listeners, this will be up at the show notes at pineswithaquinas.com for a moment and then we'll transition to actually praying it. That's really beautiful. Yeah, great idea. And then what I'll do for the listeners, this will be up at the show notes at pineswithaquinas.com for those of you who want to kind of print this out, because this would be a beautiful prayer to pray daily. Yeah,

Starting point is 00:08:15 it really is. I've never heard it before until you sent it. It is nice. Yeah. Okay, so let me begin here. Oh, merciful God, whatever is pleasing to you, may I ardently desire, wisely pursue, truly recognize and bring to perfect completion. Like his texts elsewhere, there is no superfluous word. There's no wasted word. It's all condensed, right?

Starting point is 00:08:45 Right, Absolutely. Whatever is pleasing to you, whatever that is, I want to ardently desire, wisely pursue, truly recognize, and bring to perfect completion. Yeah, here's what stands out for me in this opening line is this sense of that Aquinas, like all the saints, knew that God can transform our desires. So he's asking God, Lord, would you give me the desire to pursue you, know what that is, and be after it? He doesn't think that his own inner life is his responsibility solely, as if like, all right, I don't actually really want to please God right now. And so I noticed that my heart wants other things, so I have to fix my own heart. But rather, instead what he does, he turns to God, whatever's pleasing to you, may I ardently desire, meaning like, may you grant me that desire to want whatever pleases you. And it puts you in the posture of like real like worship or real lordship of God, that God is the one who initiates all the

Starting point is 00:09:52 desire. And that's from the scriptures. And St. Paul says that, that it is God who begets in you any amount of desire or achievement. And so I love that at this very first thing is he begins by not just simply whatever is pleasing to you, but asking God what I want. Could you help me want that? Because the truth is we don't always want that. That's why we go to confession. The first commandment, love God above everything. Well, we don't always love God about everything.

Starting point is 00:10:17 Our life is disordered. And Aquinas here is saying, help me to want you above everything and then know what that path is. So wisely pursue it. Truly recognize that path is, so wisely pursue it. Truly recognize that path and then bring it to completion. So like, God, you're going to do it all. You're going to initiate it, sustain it, show me it, and bring it to fruition. I have a participation in that. I have to say yes.

Starting point is 00:10:37 I have to be engaged. But it's your graced activity. This is the bit that, for me, I don't really get this line. So I get like, I want to ardently desire it and wisely pursue it. Okay. So you desire what you should, you pursue what you should, I guess, truly recognize means what? Not to miss it when you found it. I think like, yeah, what is it that really does please you? So here's a good example. I have this dilemma as a parish priest quite a bit. After a morning mass, there's some men and women who are widows and widowers, and

Starting point is 00:11:10 they're lonely, right? So to see a priest, to talk to him is a wonderful thing. And so to give them time is a great good. It's a gift I can give them. But at the same time, I sometimes have like pints with Aquinas to record, or I have some evangelization I'm working on or other type of ministries that I need to get to. And so what's the good? I mean, because I can't really give them my time and attention every day because then I'd neglect other work. So to truly recognize what's pleasing to God in this situation, is it to just tell them, I can't see you today. I'm so sorry. I can't talk.

Starting point is 00:11:44 I need to go do some work. Or is it to say, work can wait. I need to honor you. Now we tend to think, oh, it's always honor the person, but books have to be written. Podcasts have to be made. Evangelization has to be done. So all is, both of them are works of the Lord. So which one truly pleases God? I don't have an answer for that in my own life. I don't think it's a universal rule. I think it, depending on the day and what's going on, it can change. But I think to ask Him to truly recognize what is that path that pleases you, Lord. Yeah, that's great. He says in the next line, for the praise and glory of your name, put order into my life and grant that I may know what it is you require me to do and help me to achieve whatever is fitting and necessary for the good of my soul.

Starting point is 00:12:35 That's so good. Yeah, it is really so good. Just that first line, like put order into my life. Are you a fan of Michael Hyatt I don't know the name I'm sorry that's okay he's like a business leader guru kind of guy um he's actually an orthodox deacon um I think he was an evangelical once or at least he speaks as if he was but like many evangelicals he's kind of fleeing to orthodoxy do you notice that a bit that's a side note but. I have noticed that though. Yeah, me too. Anyway, so he's got this book. It's like a journal, which I bought. It's called

Starting point is 00:13:12 The Full Focus Planner. And it's really great. It really helps put order into your life. So, you get to write like, what are your morning rituals? What are your evening rituals? His point is you have them anyway. You may as well use them to optimize your day. And then he has a whole section called your ideal week, where you have Monday through Friday and then 5 a.m. through to 9 p.m. And he basically says, okay, suppose you had complete control over your week. What would it look like? And of course, it'll never go like that. But the point is, if you don't plan your day, if you don't plan your week, then you're not actually being proactive, you're just continually being reactive. And sometimes when people talk to me about planning your day, and what are the top three things you need to accomplish today, and like, you need to schedule in rest time, sometimes that sounds a little mechanical, and I want to rebel against that, but I really do think that it's true that if we're not making time, then all we're doing is responding to things that happen to us throughout the day. And this is why it's so important to pray that our Lord puts like order

Starting point is 00:14:17 into our life and gives us the desire to order our life. Little things like praying in the morning. Like if you make a commitment or if I make a commitment, okay, I'm going like praying in the morning. Like, if you make a commitment, or if I make a commitment, okay, I'm going to pray in the morning as soon as I wake up, you know, I'm going to wake up, say glory to you, Jesus Christ, get out of my bed and start praying. If I make that commitment, as opposed to doing it when I feel like it, which is something I've been, you know, really being intentional about lately, you start to realize why you shouldn't go out with a friend late at night during a, you know, during the weekdays, you know, because you don't want to pray in the morning.

Starting point is 00:14:48 Right. I think you have a great example there of that order into my life. Yeah, I love that. The fact is, we are actually all already living life. It's already happening. If you're listening to this podcast, you're already living a kind of life. It's already happening like if you're listening to this podcast you're already living a kind of life it's already happening to you your life is already being shaped and formed and it's already been going on for a while i mean you've been conscious for a while and uh now you're i mean you're living so you're listening to a podcast at this point so uh and the question is like is it an ordered life and who gets to decide like a lot of the business mottos, right? They ignore God, not because they're evil or anything. They're just, that's not what they're thinking of. And so they try to order your life in the most quote unquote productive and efficient ways,

Starting point is 00:15:33 which isn't bad. It's helpful. Those aren't evils. But when we say asking the Lord to order our lives, it can look very strange to some people. And that strangeness is okay. Like, you just, I mean, you just, first hours of your day, you just sit alone in silence? Well, not totally alone. I'm with the Lord, and I talk with Him.

Starting point is 00:15:54 Just every morning? Well, yes. You know, so that ordering isn't always a comfortable experience when He's ordering our lives, because He's asking us to let go of things that maybe people around us are praising. They like it, but it's actually not the greatest good. And so the ordering is that what is most amazing and beautiful comes first and gets our best attention. And then God will order us after that. And so, yeah, like you're saying, like these chunks of our day, sometimes they need to be changed. How do I do it? What needs to be there?

Starting point is 00:16:27 And it's all for accomplishing the work God has given us. It's a beautiful prayer. prayer or whatever, but that it was interrupted and charity demanded that you kind of do something else instead. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, I'll give you a good example. I wanted to get, I try to be in my bed for seven hours a night. Doesn't mean I'm going to be sleeping. I could be reading a book, but try to get, because I know I'm at my best the next day. Okay. Well, last night, a girl that's a friend of mine and I've been journeying with, she had a little birthday party. It was a couple of priests, a couple of other married couples were there,

Starting point is 00:17:11 and we were all there. It was good that we celebrated with her because she's a good woman. She's so generous and all this. And it went later, way later than I wanted it to, but I knew to leave early. I didn't want that to be a symbol, a sign that like I wasn't having fun. So charity demanded that for celebrating who she is. She's been so good to me in my life. I wanted to be there for her. And that meant I had to sacrifice some of the discipline of the seven hours in bed last night. And yet, and yet sometimes

Starting point is 00:17:41 like in order to be successful, and I mean that in the proper sense, not just the I want more money sense, we have to say no to almost everything. You know what I mean? There's times where I have to say no. Like the night before, parishioners at my new parish wanted me to come over, but I knew I needed a quiet night. I knew I needed to do some praying, some reading. I knew I needed to do some praying, some reading. I knew I needed to respond to some emails. And going over there, meeting new parishioners, it sounded so good and had all the sparkly signs of a priest who gets to know his people.

Starting point is 00:18:13 And yet I had to say, I'm sorry, tonight I just need to take care of some things. And I sat alone in my office, did some emails, worked on a few things that I needed to work on, and got to bed at a decent hour. And the next morning, I didn't regret it at all. But in the moment, it was hard. Yeah, I read somewhere, again, this is a business slogan, but it's something to the effect of the difference between successful and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything. And, you know, I'm saying no to a lot of things right now, like speaking engagements, podcast requests, things like that, because it's like, if I was to say yes to all of these things,

Starting point is 00:18:54 I wouldn't be able to be more successful at this podcast or as successful as I want to be or plan to be. And sometimes that you can tell that that frustrates people. Like I had somebody recently who I didn't know somehow got my number reached out to me asked me if i could come and speak at their parish and i said look my assistant handles that she knows my calendar better than i do please contact her because i i would hate to chat with this guy and be like yeah i guess i can come and you know unbeknownst to me my assistant had already booked something that day and so i said you know contact her first and this person like got their nose out of Joy a little. He's like, really? Like, we can't just chat as friends? And I don't even know this person.

Starting point is 00:19:31 Right. And so, it was one of those things where, what, am I going to just cave because I want to be seen as a nice guy now? Oh, no, that's cool. Let's chat. I was like, sorry, like contact her. And he contacted her and I wasn't free that month to speak. But it was one of those things where it's like, I, it's like, there's this pride in me that wants to be seen as a nice guy. Whereas I think that the right thing to do would be like to have to say no to that phone call because I have a plan today and it's in order. And if I'm just going to start responding to everyone and everything, it's going to quickly be put out of order. I guess my main point there is,

Starting point is 00:20:14 say, like, order requires saying no to things that would disrupt that order, and that can be difficult, especially when people don't like you as much because of it, to put it as starkly as possible. Well, and it's important that the ordering of your soul is not primarily or solely your responsibility. That's why this is a prayer. St. Thomas Aquinas is asking God to do this for him. Lord, put order into my life. I have the image of being on a dentist chair and your mouth is just open and the dentist does whatever he wants in there and you're just like, oh. You've said yes.

Starting point is 00:20:43 You've consented to the dentist doing whatever he wants in your teeth and in your mouth. Similarly, when we go to prayer, Lord, put order into my life. Like I'm saying yes to you because you love me. You are all loving, all good and all wise. So, you know, Lord, what is best for me. And so it's important to realize that like you're saying no is a no with the Lord. Yeah. That no, that would sidetrack us. No, no, I'm saying yes. So my no to this person is a yes to what the Lord is doing in my life. That's right. And trusting me to do.

Starting point is 00:21:16 And that's why it's important to have good friends and accountability partners and things like this, because you want to keep the mission of your life the right mission. So you discern that for a while and find out what is the Lord asking of me? That's part of this prayer. What do you require me to do? And then I can, that's my focus. That's how I keep my eyes on Jesus so I don't sink. Okay, I keep my eyes on Him and that keeps me going. But it's His initiative and sustained by Him, not in spite of us. We're asking for the grace to stay with Him so He can continue to affect us. grace to stay with Him so He can continue to affect us. I remember in prayer about a year after my marriage, sensing the Lord saying to me, you know, as I was beginning this anti-pornography work, like, Matt, it would be a better thing for you to love your family well and lead them to

Starting point is 00:21:58 heaven, and for you not to kind of help lead other people out of this sin, as opposed to abandoning your family and helping everyone else. Like, even though, so if you look at those two things side by side, everyone else versus my family, there's a lot more people on the everyone else side, and yet it would have been a tragic thing, and it would still be a tragic thing if I were to neglect my family to try and help other people. And so, it's like getting your priorities in order, like talking about getting your priorities in order, like talking about ordering your life. If saying yes to some other thing is going to disrupt my family life,

Starting point is 00:22:34 who is my first and primary vocation, then that would be an evil. But at the same time, as we've already pointed out, sometimes charity demands that we act in a way that we weren't planning. And that's why St. Thomas says here, that I may know what it is you require me to do and help me to achieve whatever is fitting and necessary for the good of my soul. All right, let's move on to this next part here. May my way, Lord, be in yours entirely, upright and perfect, failing in neither prosperity nor adversity, so that in prosperity I give you thanks, and in adversity serve patience, neither exalted in the former nor dejected in the latter. Yeah, and actually, can you read the next sentence too?

Starting point is 00:23:16 Sure. May I not rejoice in anything unless it leads me to you, nor be saddened by anything unless it turns me from you. You want me to keep going then? Yeah, just one last sentence. May I not desire to please or fear to displease anyone but you? Beautiful. Yeah. You know, this is not to be kind of simplistic, but this is just like a prayer, the quintessential

Starting point is 00:23:43 prayer of the saints and of the Catholic way of the spiritual life, right? You can call it the Ignatian indifference. You can call it a Carmelite detachment. You can call it Dominican well-ordered soul. But it's just, this is just a manifestation of this, I'm all yours and you come first. So Lord, if being sick is going to meet me closer to you, all right, I'll accept sickness. If being healthy and successful is going to lead me closer to you, then give me health and success. But all I really want in the end is you. So may my way, Lord, be entirely yours. To me, it just sounds so beautifully spousal in many ways.

Starting point is 00:24:24 Now, Aquinas doesn't say that, right? What does he mean by my way? I think like his thoughts, his choices, his way of living, what he does with his time. May it be exactly what you are doing right now. Like may my way be entirely yours. Like your wife has a certain ownership over you. She owns you in love, but she owns you. So she can make a claim like, Matt, I don't want you doing that podcast this morning.

Starting point is 00:24:49 We need to talk. And you would send me a text like, I need to talk with my wife. We'll talk later. Because your ways are hers. Like what you do with your life comes in some sense out of this profound we. You know, Jesus says in the priestly prayer of John 17, everything I have is yours, Father, and then everything that is yours is mine.

Starting point is 00:25:13 And that's kind of like the image of total self-giving here. So may my way, may my life, may my everything be entirely yours. And what are you, Lord? Upright, perfect. And then you fail in neither prosperity nor adversity. And then so because of that, I want to, in prosperity, give you thanks, and in adversity, serve patience, neither exalted in the former nor dejected in the latter. Like, I wanted to have that state of soul known as tranquility, which isn't like a margarita on the beach. It's just like this stable sense of joy and peace and confidence with God. And, you know, we know it perfectly, right? So

Starting point is 00:25:54 if what I'm really seeking is popularity, the first person who criticizes me or doesn't like me, doesn't like me, I literally crumble. My soul crumbles because my God is popularity. And so if my God is popularity, I crumble. Now, this doesn't mean we're not sad when someone upsets us, but it's not the kind of sad that's crippling. Man, I wish this person and I could reconcile or he could see my ways. But at the same time, I'm not going to hunt him down. He has his choice. And there's an overall, like in my image, there's a river, and it's peaceful. Underneath it all, there's this blessed reassurance that I'm still with God. And so I do want to get along with everyone. I think that's a good desire, but that's not my greatest good.

Starting point is 00:26:41 There are times where I have to be all in for my spouse, God and the church, and that may mean I'm going to be criticized or people upset at certain times. But if what I want is people to like me, that's what I'm really passionate about. That's my way. That's my end. Well, then I'm going to fall apart. And so it's not about rejecting being liked, but it's about putting it in its proper place. And that's that well-ordered soul. That's that detachment or a nation in difference. Whatever deepens my intimacy with the Trinity, I give a thumbs up to. That's what I want. It's so hard to know without spiritual discernment and direction what that means, because for all I know, I might not be doing the Lord's will and running this podcast.

Starting point is 00:27:24 Like maybe, and I pray that I am, I trust that it does, but it may be the Lord's will that I shut up and just be silent and not place so much emphasis on teaching or trying to make a quote-unquote impact. I mean, this is why in the scriptures it says that teachers will be judged a great deal more. I guess my point is, it's, you know, Lord, what is your will for me really? And how do I discern that? Do I just discern it when, oh, wow, like I feel really good doing this podcast? When it's like, how do I know that the Lord's not wanting me to stop this entirely?

Starting point is 00:28:04 And I think that part of that would probably come from the fruit that you see. Sure. And I think part of it is your experience, too. Like, for example, I mean, this is a little kind of tangential, but it's good. I don't listen to him much, but someone showed me some videos of that Jordan Peterson, who's like a big guy psychologist in Canada. Robert Barron did a few videos on him, Bishop Barron, and so now he kind of got more attention from the Catholic world. And he talked about how finding your true passion is

Starting point is 00:28:33 just so cliche and cheesy, and he says that, and it's so misleading, but he says, he goes, there's two things that he said I thought were profound. He says, a better question is, just begin to notice that what are you doing when you feel yourself coming fully alive? Like when you feel yourself like really alive and passionate, all your, all your energy is like engaged and you feel yourself like fully involved in something. Notice what you're doing. He says, it's a good sign that there's something in there that you're supposed to be doing. But then he added to it, he talked about the Catholic Church, he says, but the Catholics have a great sense of original sin, knowing that even that can be misleading. And so

Starting point is 00:29:15 it's like you said, it's a discernment. I use the example of someone who knows like red wine, they can drink wine and like, oh, this has nice legs and a full body and the tin, whatever the this and that. And to be honest, I'm like, it's red. Great. Okay. So like, I just don't have the refined palate, but they have a discerning palate. And so they know what it is. So similarly, in the spiritual life, like, I think anyone who's listening to this would know that Matt Fradd, his podcast is fruitful. I mean, the sheer numbers of people who listen to you and have subscribed to this, the body of Christ is being nourished by this podcast. And I know you personally enough to know that this podcast,

Starting point is 00:29:56 this kind of podcast, gives you life and energy. And so what you have are both the subjective, I'm coming alive when I do this, and I'm passionate about it, as well as the evidence or the actual facts that, and this is building up the body of Christ. And so in there, I think you can use both reason and faith to say, boy, this seems, this is certainly the will of God for me. And I think at some point in our lives, we have to claim it. We cannot sit and, well, I don't know, could this be? Eventually you have to say, this is it. And until we say that, it's like flirting. You just are flirting with a bunch of girls at a bar. But until you say, listen, you get down on a knee and say, will you be my wife forever? You never know your path.

Starting point is 00:30:41 But once you pick one, you've got your path now. Boom, your wife is your path to heaven. And this is part of the work that you are doing with your wife because she's praying and you're engaged with it along the way. But you eventually have to claim it. You have to name it. Otherwise, you just stay indifferent. And you're like, well, we'll just... It's like that nebulousness is not holy. It's got to be, this is it. This is not holy. It's got to be, this is it. You know, going along those lines with the marriage, you know, you're talking about wives and things like that and choosing one.

Starting point is 00:31:18 I just looked at this here, you know, may I not rejoice in anything unless it leaves me with you, nor be saddened by anything unless it turns me from you. And I just thought here about adultery, because many people who are unfaithful to their spouse would experience adultery in a sense as something to rejoice over. Not when you put it like that, like adultery, but like hooking up with someone you work with. Like, it's a very exciting thing, right? Tantalizing. Tantalizing, titillating thing. And whereas this same person might try to justify this this tantalizing thing by saying that he doesn't feel love for his spouse anymore in that sense it would be like saddened you know by by his marriage and here that's just one example we could use a hundred we don't have to have it have to do with marriage or sex or anything like that but that was just one example

Starting point is 00:32:01 that came to me and you have here aquinas may I not rejoice in anything unless it leads me to you, nor be saddened by anything unless it turns me from you. So, in other words, we ought to be deeply saddened by sin, whether or not we find it tantalizing, and we ought to deeply rejoice in those mundane events and relationships in our life when we know that the Lord is calling us to pour ourselves into them and to be faithful to them. Absolutely. What I love about this, Matt, what you just highlighted there was this relational quality to Thomas' prayer. I think I would have presumed if someone asked me, what do you think St. Thomas would pray there? I think I would have presumed if someone asked me, what do you think St. Thomas would pray there?

Starting point is 00:32:50 May I not rejoice in anything unless it's a virtue, and may I not be sad unless it's a sin or vice. But that's not what he writes because it's a prayer. So there's always the other, the beloved, the one who loves me and knows me. And he says, Lord, I just want to rejoice in things that lead me to you. And only be saddened by things that take me from you. And so there's that intrinsic relational quality that really, in Catholic theology, hasn't really been picked up until the 20th century now with John Paul and Benedict and Francis. But before that, it's right here in Thomas. He's like, Lord, I'm not satisfied except in a communion of love and life. Yes.

Starting point is 00:33:23 And it's with you, infinite love and life. And so I want to be sad by things that turn me from you, that make me not go deeper into this embrace. And then the next line, may I not desire to please or fear, to displease anyone but you. Once again, it's you. And so, Lord, when I go to prayer, it's all about you and how you're responding to me and how you're desiring to affect me. It's like a couple that goes on a date, or it's like when kids are in bed, you pour yourself a glass of wine and you and your wife sit down and you're like, hey, all right, how are things going with us? Like, that's the heart of

Starting point is 00:34:00 this prayer. There's an other, there's a you and a me, and there's this we sense of prayer. And it's this beautiful thing that he talks about here, because, and that's really what sin is. What is sin? I know we say it's missing the mark, but ultimately it's a covenantal or relational missing of the mark of, I miss the mark of what you wanted for me, of what would have drawn us into deeper communion. And that's why it's saddening. And that's why God hates sin, because it destroys what could have been our deepening union. And I love that you've brought this up, because it would be easy to look at this prayer as a sort of program of self-improvement without even considering the other. Like, the point is, you and I haven't been made

Starting point is 00:34:45 for virtue. We've been made for the beloved. We've been made for Christ, right? Yeah, exactly. And what are the virtues? The virtues are, if you will, the dance moves. The goal is to dance with Jesus, but I need to know how to dance. So, the virtues are the dance moves so I don't keep stepping on his feet. Or maybe even a worse sin would be, I want to dance to a swing song and he wants to do tango and I keep insisting on the song. And he's like, that's not what I'm doing right now. And so there's intimacy, but we need the powers, the skills, the abilities, the habits to actually join in this divine dance. The other thing you brought up, which I really liked, was that when you mentioned about people

Starting point is 00:35:28 who like tasting wine and being able to talk about the different notes, I feel like I have shut myself off in some sense from the promptings of the Holy Spirit. And this is something the Lord's kind of bringing back into my life in a beautiful way. I tend to struggle with a sort of cynicism and skepticism about everything. And so, I don't know if that's because I've been hurt in that area in the past. And so, I tend to retreat into the head like I'm a calculator, right? And so, God becomes like a complex math problem that can be solved. And, you know, like debating atheists just means showing them that this plus this equals this, and that's all my faith is. Whereas, I think it was Chesterton who said something to the effect of, let it be, this isn't his exact

Starting point is 00:36:13 words, but less of a syllogism, more of a love affair. So, lately, I'd be just asking the Lord to prompt me and to go where He wants me to go and to be faithful to those promptings, even if I'm wrong. And so, just to give you a little example, I was speaking at a Steubenville conference in Wisconsin recently, and we did this call where if you had never made a commitment to Christ in your life, the host said, stand up right now. And so, they did that, right? And some people stood up. And then the host was moving on. And I just felt the Holy Spirit say to me, like, there are people sitting down that want to stand up. And so I actually went up and I interrupted Bob Rice. I came up, I tapped on his shoulder. I said, there's some people actually here that need to stand up that haven't stood up. And he said, thank you. And he said that and a few more people stood up. But that's just to kind of give an example, right? Where it's almost like this other sense within us where it's an actual prompting of an actual person

Starting point is 00:37:10 who's leading us to, well, do you know what I'm saying? No, I do know what you're saying. I want it like, I mean, people can rightfully or wrongfully have some criticisms of Steubenville and whatever, okay? Like nothing's perfect. No ministry is ever perfect, okay? However, you cannot deny the fruitfulness of those ministries over the last 30 years. And what are they dedicated to?

Starting point is 00:37:36 Largely, they're just dedicated to prayer and trying to be obedient to the Holy Spirit. Adoration every day, holy mass each day. I mean there's the sacraments and then there's this obedience to the Holy Spirit. And it's true that in many ways, Aquinas talks about in other places that that's what it's all about, is this, the new law is an interior law of the grace of the Holy Spirit. That's what the new law is. That's what's new about Jesus, right? And so the church, the dogmas, the doctrines, the sacraments, they're essential. They're non-negotiables. But they have the means of conforming us into sync, if you will, with the Holy Spirit. And what's beautiful about this is the Holy Spirit's a person, which means what's really

Starting point is 00:38:16 happening is the church, through her teachings and sacraments and examples and all those things, is drawing us into intimacy, that we would become so one that we would join in the activity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as they are trying to save our co-workers, our family members, by using us as instruments of love and truth and kindness and mercy and courage, that we're actually joining in their task. And that's where real intimacy comes from. I'm participating in God's activity of saving the world. Amen.

Starting point is 00:38:53 And it's powerful. Yeah. All right. Let me... Remembering that's harder. Remembering that's harder, but it sounds nice now on a podcast. Yeah. Well, that's right.

Starting point is 00:39:01 Yeah. And that's why we need the Holy Spirit, because we're wretched. You know, I mean, this is why I love the Beatitudes. The very first thing is like, blessed are you who are poor in your own estimation, which is essentially what it means, right? But poor in our own estimation is that very thing that brings on anxiety. That's the very thing we're fleeing from. is, that's where you've got to, you have to continually acknowledge that. That thing that you think brings you anxiety and stress is the very gateway to the Christian life, not just the gateway, but the path you must walk. But the difference between one who acknowledges his poverty and suffers from anxiety, and the one who acknowledges his poverty and is made holy, is that there's another. There's a Christ who bestows upon the Christ we need. We better continue here.

Starting point is 00:39:47 I realize we could speak for hours on each of these lines, but let's continue. May all passing things become worthless to me on your account, and all things that are yours be dear to me, and you, God, above all things. May all joy without you leave me tired and weary, Do one more. Let me, my God, direct my heart to you often and let me grieve over my failure with determination to change. Beautiful. This is just, in many ways, more examples of this detachment, of this ignatian indifference type of thing. But I just want to hone in on the one

Starting point is 00:40:39 that says, and let all repose not centered on you, your presence be wearisome. Right there you have the prayer against every modern form of relaxing. YouTube videos, Netflix, just Internet searches, you name it. It's random text messages to people because we had five minutes and we were bored and we couldn't sit still. And all repose not centered on you become wearisome. This is the modern dilemma that when we're not working, we don't know what to do because we only know how to do things. And so the idea of just being, being with the Lord, or the idea of contemplating, or the idea of reflecting and thinking, or entering into good dialogue,

Starting point is 00:41:26 those are ways that we center on the Lord. But YouTube, Netflix, all that stuff is just merely a distraction. No one's been to watch Netflix and woke up the next day thinking, I'm an amazing man or woman. That never connects. You just kind of take a deep breath and go, okay, here's another day. And so, this doesn't mean no TV, it's not the extremes, but it's a matter of realizing that, am I conscious of the Lord or am I at least open to Him while I'm watching these things? You know, that's a good point. Trent Horn said something recently that really struck me.

Starting point is 00:42:07 Science cannot answer all of our problems, which is obvious to you and me, but not obvious to everybody. Because that very science, which has blessed us with an iMac in front of us and an iPhone beside us and a keyboard that's wirelessly somehow working with that iMac. Right. Science has given me that. But science cannot ever, in principle, answer the question, how should I live? And so, if I'm sitting here in front of these glowing mirrors, these glowing screens, they just stare back at me. And that doesn't help me.

Starting point is 00:42:44 Just as you say, and so, because I don't know why I am here, I don't know what or who I am for, I plunge myself headlong into a myriad of distractions to fragment my interior life so that all of the parts within me are directed at like a dozen different things, pulling like multiple dogs on leashes connected to one hand, then I don't have to encounter my poverty. That's how we distract. Just like we avoid other people by walking away from them, we avoid ourselves by somehow making our inner life disperse through, you know, I don't know. Yeah. That's great. You know, Simone Weil, she said that the reason people don't pray is that no one can see the face of God and live. And, you know, what she means by that is I can't really go deep into prayer, really encounter God and keep my same masks going.

Starting point is 00:43:48 I can't keep my same life that I've been living of distractions and masks and pretending. I can't keep it going. And so the reason people actually don't commit themselves to a deep life of prayer is they know they're going to die. That what's going to die is everything that I've come to feel secure. My ego. Yeah, yeah. Everything that makes me feel strong and protected. That's going to have to die. That what's going to die is everything that I've come to feel secure. Everything that makes me feel strong and protected, that's going to have to die. And I'm going to have to actually depend on another to protect me and defend me. And of course, there's psychological things. If I had a parent or someone wasn't there for me, this could be a whole thing. But nonetheless,

Starting point is 00:44:18 I don't want to belittle that. But that's the heart of it is I don't want to, I can't go to prayer because I'm going to die. And what's actually going to it is i don't want to uh i i can't go to prayer because i'm going to die and what's that what's actually going to die is not actually me but what i think is me the ego it's going to be destroyed and what will be left is a beloved son and a beloved daughter that reminds me of i heard scott hahn once say never forget that the Lord wants you more than he wants to use you. And sometimes our whole prayer life and me, certainly, I struggle with this. It's like, yeah, I'm the Pints with Aquinas guy, right, Lord? It's like, shut up. I don't even care. Drop it. You're my son. You know, or I don't know.

Starting point is 00:44:58 Yeah, Christopher West said that one time. He said, like, he goes, part of my biggest struggle for my early years of ministry was I was the theology of the body guy. He goes, it took me a long time. He goes, my wife helped me. He goes, but I had to learn that that's not my identity. He goes, that's not who I am. I'm God's son. And what's so difficult and pernicious about this stumbling block or lie is I'm sure at no point in Christopher's earlier career, if you said to him, do you consider yourself the theology of the body guy? He would have went, absolutely not. No, that's not my identity. I'm a son of God. So, we can know things without knowing things. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:45:34 We can know them at a very shallow level without it actually sinking deep into our being, you know? That's scary. That's scary, man. All right, let me continue here. Let me, my God, direct my heart to you often, and let me grieve over my failure with determination to change. Make me, my God, humble without pretense, cheerful without frivolity, sad without dejection, mature without heaviness,

Starting point is 00:46:03 quick-witted without levity, truthful without duplicity. Every line there. We can do a podcast on every line. I know, exactly. I just want to pick one just because for the sake of time. You pick one, I'll pick one, yep. All right, I'm going to pick mature without heaviness. This is a tough one for me because as a priest, I don't want to become like the middle-aged priest who's like everyone's buddy. Hey, how you doing? I don't want to be that guy. But I also don't want to be like this serious guy who walks around and is like none of you are prayerful enough and I have reached some sort of stage of enlightenment.

Starting point is 00:46:39 Like I don't want to be either guy. But I want to be a good father. I want to mature to the point where I really can care about you more than myself. But I don't want to have heaviness. I want to be lighthearted. I want to be the kind of dad that could get on the floor and play with his kids and yet then go to the office without any resentment and balance the checkbook. Because that's part of my responsibilities. That mature without heaviness line is a real it touches me

Starting point is 00:47:05 there's a sense of like i don't know i define success as uh like loving your responsibilities like there's a sense of like that's what it means to be mature as you begin to love your responsibilities you don't resent them you don't avoid them you love them because these are the things you're responsible for in life i think i think I think part of what brings on that heaviness is that the longer you live, the more days behind you that have been disappointing. It's like the accumulation of those disappointing moments, relationships, days, adds up to a cynicism that young people don't have because they haven't lived long enough. So, this is why you see children, they can endure such a tremendous amount.

Starting point is 00:47:48 I'm sure there's a lot more besides that, but maybe neurological development and everything else. But it's like they are incredibly optimistic, like young people are incredibly optimistic. We're going to go change the world. And then you talk to a 45-year-old, or you talk to someone like Jordan Peterson, he's like shut up

Starting point is 00:48:05 change yourself yeah or make your room make your bed you know and there's maybe we need both i'm not sure but i i think part of the my battle with cynicism and a minute many older people are like this right like everything's going to hell you know back in the day and and there's definitely there's truth to both of those things i'm not saying that back in the day it wasn't better. I suspect it was in many respects. But it's almost like we need to balance each other out. What do you think? Yeah, I think that's true. You know, Christ, when you look at the gospel, Jesus isn't saying, you know, unless you become like a really responsible adult, you cannot enter the kingdom. That's how he says, he says, unless you become like a child. Yes.

Starting point is 00:48:47 And so in Jesus, I think von Balthasar said this, what Jesus sees in child and children is the disposition that he possesses before the father. And so when he says, unless you become like them, what he's really saying is unless you become like me, which is dependent, trusting and abandoned to the Father's love and care.

Starting point is 00:49:06 Unless you become like this, you cannot enter the kingdom. Like, I was at a friend's house the other day, and they have five kids and four daughters, one boy, and they're all so cute. But I love when they're like, hey, Father, can you get this for me? Because they're asking me to, like, reach something on a shelf they can't reach. They're not embarrassed that they can't reach it, that they're not big enough. They just ask, hey, can you do this? Like, that disposition of freedom, of trust, that, well, of course you're going to do stuff for me.

Starting point is 00:49:28 You're my friend. You're my dad. You're whatever. Like that's the mature without heaviness. There's something there. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Again, we could focus on all these lines. Let me just focus on one. Cheerful without frivolity. I feel, we read this a lot in the saints, right? Like you shouldn't be frivolous. You shouldn't laugh too much, those sorts of things. I feel like we don't understand that, maybe because we've, the pendulum has swung from, you know, back in the 40s where it's like to be a Catholic meant to be super serious and super sad about your sin and you might be going to hell, and now it's like, God loves you, you're His child, joy, joy, joy. But here's a, yeah, cheerfulness, absolutely. But not frivolity. It's almost like an irresponsible cheerfulness, and that's

Starting point is 00:50:13 frivolity. It's almost like unrestrained cheerfulness, if you will, where somebody almost loses their senses in their joyfulness. And that wouldn't properly be called joy, I guess. What do you think about that one? Yeah, it's a strange one for me, that one, because I just love stand-up comedians. I just love joy so much. But I think, obviously, he's not saying be miserable.

Starting point is 00:50:42 He's saying cheerful. That's right. But have you ever met someone who cannot be sad? Like they just refuse to ever be sad or serious? I think I know what you mean. Yep. I think there's something there, that frivolity, that sense of like it's not serious, meaning it's not like real, the laughter. It's just kind of like, I just want to laugh, just kind of distract myself. Or like people who laugh simply out of,

Starting point is 00:51:12 because someone else told a joke, even though it was a crappy joke, and they laugh anyways. Like, there's something like, there's not something real there. There's not something substantial to actually laugh about. I think there's something with that. Yeah. What I love about this part of his prayer is you can never accuse him of saying something he isn't, right? So, if you say, oh, I'm not allowed to be dejected? Why can't I? He's like, no, no, he just said you can be sad. Oh, okay. What, I'm not allowed to be frivolous? You're saying I can't be joyful? No, he just said you can be cheerful, you know? It's like this beautiful balance that the love of the Lord must

Starting point is 00:51:45 give. Yeah, because there's no way we can do it. There's no way we can walk that tightrope. Truthful without duplicity, quick-witted without levity, mature without heaviness, sad without dejection, cheerful without virality, humble without pretense. There's no way. We cannot do that on our own. We literally will go to one extreme or the other. We just can't. That tightrope is not a tightrope, actually. It's actually a person. It's the Holy Spirit, and we can only live with Him, with His help, you know? So... Pete Yeah. All right. We've got two sections left, so I'll read this section here.

Starting point is 00:52:15 Let me fear you without despair and hope in you without presumption. Let me correct my neighbor without hypocrisy and without pride. Edify him by word and example. Obedient without contradiction. Patient without murmuring. Give me, dearest God, a vigilant heart which no distracting thought can lure away from you. Give me a noble heart which no unworthy desire can ever debase. Give me an unconquered heart which no tribulation can fatigue. Give me a free heart which no violent temptation can enslave. Give me an upright heart which no perverse intention can hold fast. That's beautiful. I don't know. I mean, I'm just a, I'm a sap for heart language. Anytime a saint starts talking about a heart, I'm like, yeah, whatever that is,

Starting point is 00:53:15 that's gotta be right. Um, but I think this is really a good corrective. Like anyone listening to the podcast, they like, whenever you hear people be like, well, Aquinas doesn't get the inner life or he doesn't really pay to you. You just direct him to this prayer. Like, like he's talking about the kind of heart he wants the Lord to grant him. You know, a vigilant heart, a noble heart, an unconquered heart, a free heart, an upright heart. Like, Lord, make the core of my being like just totally centered on your greatness and living with you in all things. your greatness and living with you in all things. The one that I love is a vigilant heart which no distracting thought can lure away. I don't know about anyone else, but I'll go to prayer sometimes, and I'm so consoled that the catechism lets me know that distractions in prayer are part of the journey of growth.

Starting point is 00:54:02 But it'll be like, I'll do a holy hour in like five, six minutes into my, you know, I'll be praying. Like five minutes, I'll be thinking about like, like, boy, that burrito was delicious. I wouldn't, I'm so glad I chose guacamole because, you know, I know it's $1.80 extra,

Starting point is 00:54:16 but my God, it was worth it because I was in doubt. And like five minutes later, I'm like, am I just, am I literally thinking about guacamole for five minutes? Totally. This is everyone's experience. Like no one's listening to you right now being like, what? literally thinking about guacamole for five minutes? Totally. This is everyone's experience.

Starting point is 00:54:25 No one's listening to you right now being like, what? I never have that problem. Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah. And so, Lord, I want a vigilant heart where nothing can lure me away from you. And that's how beautiful that would be, a heart that is so focused and so vigilant that like thoughts that try to distract us, they would just bounce off of us like a tennis ball. No, that's not, I'm not focusing on that. I'm right here with you, Lord. That's a beautiful prayer.

Starting point is 00:54:51 What do you do when you have those distracting thoughts? Like one suggestion somebody offered to me is when you find yourself daydreaming and then you catch yourself to almost like pray about that thing. Now it might be difficult to pray about guacamole, but like if I find myself like, I don't know, praying, and then as I'm praying, I notice how messy the house is, and it frustrates me, and I think, why can't we do a better job at keeping a bloody, you know, make a more ordered house or something?

Starting point is 00:55:19 And I catch myself, you know, maybe then I can say, Lord, I thank you that I'm wretched, first of all, and that I need you. I thank you that this experience just reminded me of that. And then also, I pray that you would help me put my house in order. And when I fail, help me to be patient with it or something like that. It's almost like to not to too violently resist those, like, or if you start daydreaming about your future spouse or what you're doing next week. It's like, well, I just pray about that. I just thank you for that and bless this upcoming trip. Right. You know, the catechism says that

Starting point is 00:55:49 don't follow distractions. That's part of their tactic is to get you down that wormhole. However, there was a priest at the Institute for Priestly Formation in Omaha, Nebraska. They, you know, they form like almost every seminary that seems like, but I was blessed to go there. And there's a priest named Father Scott Schrainer. I think he's the rector now at some seminary in Denver. But he said that he gave me a method that I found to be really a great tool. So the first time a distraction comes up, just gently name it, and then come right back to whatever you were praying with. So, oh, guacamole. Okay, come right back to, I was reading the scriptures, let's say. So I come right back there. He said the second time that same distraction comes up.

Starting point is 00:56:28 Now, it doesn't have to be like exactly like guacamole, but maybe like it's lunch again. I remember being out with Matt at lunch where I had that burrito. I started thinking about lunch still again. He says, just stop and tell the Lord everything about it. Lord, I really enjoyed lunch with Matt today. The burrito was delicious. Thank you for taste buds. And I thank you. And then he was delicious. Thank you for taste buds. And I thank

Starting point is 00:56:45 you. And then he says, now come back to the scriptures. He said, if that same kind of distraction comes up a third time, it's not a distraction. It's something the Lord wants you to pay attention to. I like that. Yeah. And I found that to be true that after that second step, the telling the Lord all about what's coming up for me and really sharing everything. Oh Lord, Matt said something. I got ticked at him. I'm kind of feeling that right now. And I tell him everything.

Starting point is 00:57:09 If it's actually a distraction, it goes away after that second point, after sharing everything with him. If it's still there, scrap what the little thing I wanted to pray with. And the Lord's trying to speak to me. I need to pay attention. That's great advice. That works well for me. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:57:24 Let's conclude the prayer here. He says, grant me, Lord, my God, intelligence in knowing you, diligence in seeking you, wisdom in finding you, conversation pleasing to you, perseverance in confidently waiting for you, and confidence in finally embracing you. Grant that as penance I may be afflicted with your hardships, as grace make use along the way of your favors, as Amen. Yeah. I love that line. And confidence in finally embracing you. First off, I just love all the yous, right?

Starting point is 00:58:03 Once again, what does Aquinas see the intelligence about? Knowing you. First off, I just love all the yous, right? Once again, what does Aquinas see the intelligence about? Knowing you. Lord, give me intelligence in knowing you. Diligence. Why? So I can live a really good Christian life? No, in seeking you. Give me wisdom, Lord, so I can sound really smart on a podcast. No, give me wisdom in finding you. Aquinas is madly in love with God. in finding you. Aquinas is madly in love with God. Like he's just so in love with God. He just wants every gift possible to draw him closer to the one he loves. And then finally embracing him. The idea of love by its very nature makes you want to become one with your beloved, right? That's why young people in many ways find it so hard to remain chaste. That's why long engagement periods are really, really difficult because they want to be one. They want to give everything, and that's a beautiful desire.

Starting point is 00:58:51 It's not shameful. And so it may be purified, of course, but at the heart of it is this, I want to embrace you. And so here's Aquinas totally in love with God. Lord, would you give me confidence in embracing you that I would really believe in that there will be a moment in my life where I actually get to embrace the infinite one? Like, would you grant me that grace, Lord, to really have confidence that that's going to be an experience I have one day? It's a beautiful way of ending your prayer, that it reminds us of heaven and then the journey along the way.

Starting point is 00:59:27 Obviously, there's so much that could be said, but how can this, maybe we've already talked about it, but what can we take away from this prayer? There's so much that's said, it's like we could take a million things away from this prayer. But for those listening who, you know, we've said quite a lot, and of course the title being Prayer for the Wise Ordering of One's Life. And I'll be putting up the text of this in the show notes so that people can pray with it. Any advice on how to do that? Yeah, I would just say there's two things maybe to take away that I can think of right now. The first one is that Thomas Aquinas and every saint are in love with God. That their prayer, their work, their ministry, their thinking, their relating comes from this, I am a man and woman in love. When you meet a saint, you're meeting someone who's madly in love.

Starting point is 01:00:20 And you see that in their prayer. He wants only God, everything from God. Not because God's the right answer. not because he's an intellectually interesting thing, but because God is captured, and he's fixed his whole personality on the infinite good, the infinite beauty, and that one has a name, and it's Father, it's Jesus. So it's beautiful. So that's the first thing, madly in love. Second thing is this, is the title, the prayer for a wise ordering of one's life, we can think of, oh, cool, I'm going to learn how to order my life. That's the temptation with the

Starting point is 01:00:49 title. But it's a prayer for that. So fundamentally, to order my life, I need to ask another for help. In this sense, God. And it's God's activity in me that I'm asking for and seeking so that He can help me put my life in order. This isn't something I'm going to do and say, ta-da, God, come look what I did. But rather, it's, thank you, Lord, even the idea to want my soul ordered, even the interest in this, that is your grace at work. So those would be the two final points. You know, it just occurred to me that those words of Thomas, I think it was maybe his fellow friar, Reginald, who reported this, that he was before the Eucharist. And apparently our Lord appeared to Thomas and said, you've written well of me, Thomas. What would you have as your reward?

Starting point is 01:01:41 And there's that famous line, non nissite domine. And it seems like nothing if not you, Lord. And it seems to me that line is really what sums up this prayer and Aquinas' life and what ought to sum up our life as well. Like, if there's conversations that are displeasing to you, well, they're nothing if not you, Lord. You know, if there's entertainment I'm engaged in that you don't want me to be engaged, then nothing if not you, Lord. If I'm supposed to be sad, if I'm supposed to be happy, then nothing if not you, Lord. That's a beautiful mantra to pray throughout the day, wouldn't it? Nothing if not you, Lord. I like that interpretation better than nothing except you, Lord. And maybe as we wrap up, you told me that story about the

Starting point is 01:02:20 Franciscan and the Carmelite making their way to God. Do you know what I mean? Do you remember that? Tell us that story. So, the story goes, there's a Franciscan and a Carmelite talking about the spiritual life. And you imagine this beautiful wooded path with flowers and trees and little animals, and the end of the path is God. And oftentimes, the Carmelite spirituality says, I'm just going to run to God. I'll see you there. And he just runs as fast as he can to God. And it's beautiful. Loves God, just wants to be with God. He looks back and he sees a Franciscan petting the dog's nose, smelling a flower, stopping and looking up at a tree, going backwards back to pet the dog again because the dog was so cute.

Starting point is 01:03:00 And the Carmelite's like, don't you want to be with God? He's like, yeah, I'm getting there. I'm just enjoying all these things along the way right and see they're both ordered right it's just different i mean there's complementary here they're both ordered that they want god one is enjoying the gifts of god that lead him there and the other one's going right to the giver right and uh they're sometimes it's personalities and temperaments but they're both beautiful along the way. Sometimes we need a beer and talk about Aquinas. Sometimes we need coffee and talk about what Aquinas. And sometimes you just need God.

Starting point is 01:03:31 Yeah. Oh, that's so great. I really appreciate you coming on today and chatting with us. Hey, thanks for having me back. It's great to be out. Yeah. Thanks so much. All right.

Starting point is 01:03:39 God bless. Bye. Peace. Oh, merciful God, whatever is pleasing to you, may I ardently desire, wisely pursue, truly recognize and bring to perfect completion. For the praise and glory of your name put order into my life and grant that I may know what it is you require me to do and help me to achieve whatever is fitting and necessary for the good of my soul.

Starting point is 01:04:22 May my way, Lord, be yours entirely, upright and perfect, failing in neither prosperity nor adversity, so that in prosperity I give you thanks and in adversity serve patience, neither exalted in the former nor dejected in the latter. May I not rejoice in anything unless it leads me to you, nor be sad not rejoice in anything unless it leads me to you, nor be saddened by anything unless it turns me from you. May I not desire to please or fear to displease anyone but you. May all passing things become worthless to me on your account, and all things that are yours be dear to me, and you, God, above all things. May all joy without you leave me tired and weary, and may I not desire anything apart from you.

Starting point is 01:05:11 May all work that is done for you delight me, Lord, and all repose not centered on your presence be wearisome. Let me, my God, direct my heart to you often, and let me grieve over my failure with determination to change. Make me, my God, humble without pretense, cheerful without frivolity, sad without dejection, mature without heaviness, quick-witted without levity, truthful without duplicity. Let me fear you without despair and hope in you without presumption. Let me correct my neighbor without hypocrisy and without pride edify him by word and example. Obedient without contradiction, patient without murmuring.

Starting point is 01:05:57 Give me, dearest God, a vigilant heart which no distracting thought can lure away from you. Give me a noble heart which no unworthy desire can ever debase. Give me an unconquered heart, which no tribulation can fatigue. Give me a free heart, which no violent temptation can enslave. Give me an upright heart, which no perverse intention can hold fast. Grant me, Lord my God, intelligence in knowing you, diligence in seeking you, wisdom in finding you, conversation pleasing to you,

Starting point is 01:06:37 perseverance in confidently waiting for you, and confidence in finally embracing you. Grant that as penance I may be afflicted with your hardships, as grace make use along the way of your favours, as glory delight in your joys in the Fatherland. Amen. Субтитры подогнал «Симон» Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, Боги, Великобрешного. Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, Боги, веков вечно. Господи Иисусе Христе.

Starting point is 01:09:12 Сын Божий, Боги, веков вечно. Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, Боги, Благовещен. Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, Боги, Благовещен. Субтитры подогнал «Симон» Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, Боги, Благовещен Бог. Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, Боги, Благовещен Бог. Субтитры подогнал «Симон» Субтитры подогнал «Симон» Субтитры создавал DimaTorzok Sous-titrage MFP. Thank you.

Pints With Aquinas - 125: How to order your life, with Fr. Ryan Mann

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