Pints With Aquinas - 166: Will money make me happy? W/ Fr. Ryan Mann (part 2)

Episode Date: August 13, 2019

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G'day, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any question at all, what would it be? In today's episode, we're going to ask Aquinas why money and other things can't make us happy. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a bar stool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. This is the second in a three-part series on happiness that we are doing with my good friend, Father Ryan Mann. If you haven't listened to last week's episode, it would be a good idea to go back and do that. You could still understand what's going on today, but you'll certainly get the full picture if you begin with last week's episode.

Today, we're going to be talking about why money can't make us happy, why fame can't make us happy, why glory can't make us happy. I think it's kind of become a cliche to say money can't make us happy, but do know, do you really believe it? Like if I told you today that you've just won $5 million, how happy would you be, right? This is what I'm saying. So that's what we're going to be talking about. It's going to be super good. I hope you really enjoy it. I hope it's a blessing to you. I wanted to say, if you enjoy what we're doing at Pints with Aquinas and the Matt Fradd Show, you can begin supporting us. That is an option that is available to you. A dollar a month, two bucks a month, 10 bucks a month. Go to patreon.com slash matt frad and you'll see all the free gifts that i give you in return if you hate patreon go

to um pints with aquinas.com slash donate and you can just give to me directly you get free gifts in return there as well we are trying to do a lot of cool things here with the team we have one of the things we're trying to do soon is to create a Pints with Aquinas app, which is going to be sensational. It'll have prayers that you can read and listen to from Thomas Aquinas and a whole bunch else besides that I'll get to closer to the date if we start getting patrons. But please go check that out. Patreon.com slash Matt Fradd if you want to support the show. Speaking of money making you happy, just give me your money, damn it. Okay? So I can be happy. All right, that was a joke.

Some of you didn't get it. You've just stopped listening. Father, I'm in. How are you doing? Thanks for being back on the show. It's so great to be back. How's your day? Is it good?

Are you well? I'm doing well. I do love the summer months here in Northeast Ohio. I get to go up to Lake Erie to the beaches once in a while and hang out with some friends, so it's great. Good stuff. Yeah. Well, last week we spoke about happiness in general, what it is, what it isn't, why we can't be fully happy in this life, obstacles to happiness, the fact that this is a spiritual battle in which we find ourselves, and so on. But in the first part of the second part of the Summa Theologiae, question two,

this is a fascinating question. There's eight articles, and in it, Aquinas goes through the things we turn to other than God to make us happy, and he argues for why they can't make us happy. So, in today's episode, we're going to be discussing why wealth can't make us happy, why honor can't make us happy, why fame and glory can't make us happy. And then in next week's episode, we're going to discuss why power and pleasure and goods of the body and the soul can't make us happy. So first off, I just got to say, I love Thomas Aquinas. And one of the reasons I love him is because saying things like money can't make you happy. Like whenever I hear somebody say that, I'm like, I bet it would, I bet I can be the exception that would prove God wrong. Okay. Like it's so cliche and you get the sense that those

who say it don't even mean it. But the great thing about Thomas Aquinas, of course, is he actually makes an argument. So, um, I guess, yeah, let's just start with maybe a personal sharing and maybe make this a little bit more personal before we delve into these articles. Wealth, honor, fame, and glory. I mean, is there any of these that you want to talk about in your life, how maybe you've sought these things, hoping that they would make you happy and so on? Of course. Right before I got ordained, now my brother and sister, they're my half-brother and half-sister, and they're pretty much Jewish, agnostic Jewish. They're doing great as far as a mom and a dad goes. But like all of us, they have a lot to grow in and stuff like this.

But I remember right before I was ordained, my brother called me, and he runs a pretty big shop business up in Michigan. And he said, all right, Ryan, how about you come work for the company? And he offered me an obscene amount of salary. And he's like, I, Ryan, how about you come work for the company? And he offered me an obscene amount of salary. And he's like, I'll take care of all those things for you. You'll be done. You'll be set for life. You never have to worry about money or anything like that. And it was like a couple months before I was ordained. And I'm just really grateful to God's providence that it happened then because I was so excited about being ordained. Because had he offered me that like three years before in a tough time in the seminary,

I've been like, oh, great, perfect, a big paycheck. That sounds awesome. I'm set. But like my brother wasn't doing it to get me away from ordination. He really just saw in his own life that money made life easier and that there were certain things he didn't have to worry about and opportunities and things he got to experience because of how much his income was. And out of love for me, he wanted that for me.

And so we thought, well, this will be good for you. You'll be happy. And that's precisely what Aquinas speaks into is, is that true? Would that have made me happy? And that's why I love Aquinas' arguments here in his response and everything. Yeah, I mean, I fall into all of these, as I think all of our listeners, if we're honest, do. We'll read what he has to say here in a moment. But I mean, I want wealth.

Why? So I can feel stable. So I can feel like, you know, life's bloody unpredictable. And I would like a way to kind of protect myself from the tragedies that strike, you and money's a pretty way to do that my wife was sick she had to get surgery uh it was very very very expensive and um you know insurance didn't cover it actually and it was like this hysterectomy big thing so she had to have it because of health reasons and you know like we had a bit of money that we were able to

kind of put to that which if we hadn't you know so it's i don't know i just i don't want to dismiss that too quickly i suppose you know about right and that's a beautiful like you know the beautiful thing about aquinas is he doesn't there's a difference between saying my happiness doesn't reside in wealth and money and wealth and money are evil those are two very different statements money and wealth and money are evil. Those are two very different statements. Money and wealth are not evil. They're not like they shouldn't be avoided at all costs. It's not like they should be rejected and preached against. But rather, what he's saying is this is an area, wealth, honor, fame, or glory. These are areas in which our hearts tend to be oriented to go to,

to find fulfillment, to find our ultimate rest, to find flourishing. Remember, happiness is another word for flourishing, where we think we can really flourish because of these things. And what he'll do is he'll always nuance, and every one of these things we're going to go through, he nuances between it being evil, which it's not, and it being the kind of good that I'm not going to find my happiness in, but it is a good. Money is a good. We do want to help poor people with money. I mean, it's not blessed are the destitute for they have no food, clothing, or shelter. It's much Jesus' nuance. He doesn't want people, but he wants people to help each other.

The Father knows what you need. Yeah. Yes. Yes, exactly. But he wants people to help each other. The Father knows what you need. Yes, yes, exactly. And that reminds me of that line often misquoted from 1 Timothy 6.10. People often say it says money is the root of all evil. It doesn't say that, right?

It says the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Here's what Aquinas says here in Article 1, it is impossible for man's happiness to consist in wealth, for wealth is twofold, as the philosopher says, natural and artificial. Natural wealth is that which serves man as a remedy for his natural wants, such as food, drink, clothing, cars, dwellings, and such like, while artificial wealth is that which is not a direct help to nature, like money, but is invented by the art of man for the convenience of exchange, and as a measure of things saleable. But it is evident that man's happiness cannot consist in natural wealth, for wealth of this kind is sought for the sake of something else, right? Like, I want food so I can live. I want clothing so I can be warm. I want drinks so I don't have to be thirsty. I want cars

so I can go somewhere, right? So it's aiming at something else. So it's a support for human nature. He says, consequently, it cannot be man's last end. Rather, is He says, Now, as to artificial wealth, and for our listeners, just to clarify, he's talking about cash, money, credit cards here. As to artificial wealth, it's not sought save for the sake of natural wealth, since man would not seek it except because by its means he procures for himself the necessities of life. Consequently, much less can it be considered in the light of the last end. Therefore, it is impossible for happiness, which is the last end of man, to consist in wealth. There you go. That is a bulletproof, knock-down, drag-em-out argument, but I'm probably still going to fall into the trap of thinking he's wrong. But anyway, let's go. What do you think?

Yeah, no, it's just so good. I mean, he's a master at keeping ends and means in the right order. The end is happiness, And happiness, of course, we've said is has to be infinite, which is God. It has to be our enjoyment of that infinite. So that's where our end, that's where we are happy. That's where we're at rest. That's where we're satiated. All right. She says, well, you know, everything else here is a means, you know, why do you want food? Well, because you're hungry. And then, so everything's for something else, except that. And so he just makes that argument, like you said, knock down straight all the way through. I think when most people think of wealth, they think of cash.

They don't first think of these other types of wealth. Yeah, I think you're right. But, you know, I think there's also, we might say in modern language, these material goods aren't enough. There's a spiritual nature in man as well. And so even if you have all the material goods, it helps you function in this world. But there's still other longings like justice, love, truth, goodness. And no amount of food, drink, or clothing can satisfy that, but it can create a condition by which you can get that. So that's what I'm saying. It's not evil. The starving person, like a kid who's starving in Africa, doesn't have the cultural setting with food, drink, shelter, clothing, to begin to even contemplate what is justice,

what is goodness, what is truth, because he's trying to stay alive. And so wanting these things isn't evil, but to think that that's where your fulfillment resides, that's the real danger. And so this is important because when we dialogue with politics and things like this, we certainly want governments to help bring aid to people, and we want there to be all sorts of organizations that can do good for man, but we want the totality of man served not simply as material goods yeah yeah i love this like will wealth make us happy it's like no you kidding me like well don't make it possible and he's like don't get me started on money like wealth is for the sake

of something else and money is for the sake of the sake of something else like it's way down there yeah yeah and this from a guy by the, who took a vow of poverty, right? So it's a little different than you as a layman. Exactly. Well, yeah, that's true. And so there is a temptation for a layperson, much less than a religious. I mean, it doesn't mean the religious can't daydream about, man, if I had a boat, I'll tell you. But there is a freedom from the temporal worries in a religious life.

Yeah, that is true. Sometimes I do get a little peeved when I hear priests talk to me about trusting in the Lord. I'm like, I'm sorry. I know you apparently – I mean, I know secular priests don't take a vow of poverty, but yeah, it's like, you know, you'll probably be taken care of, right? I mean, you've probably got a dental plan, and you don't have kids, have to go to college. Like, you tell me really who's having a struggle with this, you know, but I don't know if that's fair. You tell me. Well, no, I think there's something to that. I mean, we may worry about it in terms of caring for the parish

buildings or salaries and things like this, but I mean, temptations are temptations, but in one sense, your state of life can make you vulnerable to more, you know? So someone who, especially like in ministry is day to day, really vigilant and realizing we can't go on the nice vacations. We can't have all the fanciest things because money's tight. They may dream that boy, all these daily stressors wouldn't be there if I just hit the lotto. Yeah. And there's something true about that, right? Like we can't ignore the fact that there's a lot of stress attached to paying bills and weddings for you and colleges and all that. But it's also true that

is that really going to satisfy you? What are you in touch with? Are you in touch with simply a material need? Or do you also recognize the deeper need undergirding that, which is union with God? Yeah. I mean, this is why we've all experienced this. We've all experienced people who are poorer than us in a place we would not like to be, who do not have the things we have and yet seem happier. Sure. I mean, I'll never forget the days I spent with the Friars of the Renewal in London, in England, and just the incredible joy and, yeah, camaraderie, fraternal affection around the table as we sat and ate together. And it was just, I was like, wow, you don't see this in the world. Like I encounter these nuns, they're wearing these habits in the

summer, they're not having sex, they don't have money. They have little power. And then I encounter people in the world who are doing all these things, and not all of them, of course. Some of them seem dead. A lot of them. A lot of them. It was a few years ago, a billionaire committed suicide. And you're just like, okay, he's a billionaire with a B. He has the money to have 10 psychologists.

If he has some issues he needs to work through, he has the money to just build a house anywhere. Like he has so much power because of his money. And he's just, I don't know. It's just, I just, whenever I hear that, I think of the Jesus that Satan first lies to us. Then he's a murderer. He lied to this guy and said money would make you happy.

He spent his whole life getting money, and now he's miserable. And so then the devil comes in and murders him. It is. It's just a very – money can be very alluring. And be very careful on your TV shows and commercials and things. Those people are hired. They hire people to make that life look attractable. There's someone who is hired by every marketing company, every marketing company exists

to make something desirable. But remember, God was the first marketer. He created the goods of this world with a certain beauty to them so we would want them. And so, you know, we stay close to Christ, we become illuminated, and we can see things rightly. But yeah, there's always someone there behind this, a certain logic behind this trying to enslave us. And that's what, you know, the next ones are even more enslaving, I think, is the honors, fame, and glory. Yeah, let's get to that in a second. But I just want to say one more point, you know, Dave Ramsey, all these incredible, you know incredible ministries that help people with their money. These are no doubt tremendous goods, which we should all be taking advantage of.

I mean, God has given us talents, given us money, and we ought to be, you know, we're in charge of those things, you know, and we ought to kind of use them appropriately. That said, I think we can fall into the trap of acting like orphans who do not have a beloved like a father in heaven who's going to take care of us and so we never learn to sort of rest like he's got this i mean it was him if somebody heard what i just said there and thought that was a little irresponsible it was the lord jesus christ who said why do you worry about what you will eat what you will wear look at the the birds. They don't worry. Their Heavenly Father takes care of them, and aren't you worth more than they? You know, like, it's one thing to intellectually kind of acknowledge.

It's another thing to sort of, like, rest into your sonship, to claim your sonship, and just to, yeah, to rely, rely on it, you know? No, for sure. And this is, once again, why I come back to the sacraments of initiation. You have been initiated, of course, into the church, but into Christ. So his own resting in the Father's dedication for him is given to you in those sacraments. Jesus' own confidence in the Father is given to you. This isn't like a willpower. It's something that's received and surrendered and accepted, a relaxing into the posture of a beloved son and daughter. This is what Christ is working in you through the Holy

Spirit, that the Father has a fierce dedication to you and for you, the same that He had for Jesus. They're like, well, it was Jesus, of course, and then there's me. They got Coke and we get Diet Coke. No, it's the real thing. Jesus is in you and you are in Him. You're sharing in the same providential fatherhood that Jesus trusted in. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's talk about honors now. This is in Article 2. This is a very short respondio, so I might just read this if that's okay. Let's read the said contra first.

So here, of course, Aquinas is going to reject the idea that honor... So what does that mean, by the way, Father? What do we mean when we say honor in this context? Yeah, I would almost think of like the Academy Awards or an award show. It's what you give to someone else because they did something good. Yeah, and I think praise too. Praise, yeah. People saying great things about you on social media, behind your back saying great things.

Yeah. So he says, okay, the said contra is happiness is in the happy, but honor is not in the honored, but rather in him who honors and who offers deference to the person honored, as the philosopher says. Therefore, happiness does not consist in honor. I answer that. to consist in honor, for honor is given to a man on account of some excellence in him, and consequently it is a sign, an attestation of the excellence that is in the person honored. Now, a man's excellence is in proportion, especially to his happiness, which is man's perfect good, and to its parts, that is, those goods by which he has a certain share of happiness. And therefore, honor can result from happiness but happiness

cannot principally consist therein what say you i'm starting to just really love aquinas more and more there's something about reading him out loud sometimes when i flip open the sooner i start reading i find myself not understanding it but if i read it with that kind of that kind of like energy and that sort of intonation, I'm like, okay, yeah, this makes sense. It's like he writes in syllogisms. It's quite clear. Well, you know, I think, Matt, I was thinking about this. You go around, you give a lot of talks. It's one of your main ministries. And as a priest, I do a lot of homilies. And you and I are not naive of the fact that the body of Christ enjoys us speaking.

It's one of the reasons why you get asked to speak more, right? There's a certain honor there. They give you praise. But what they're honoring, this is what he wants to say, what they're honoring in you is a particular good you're already sharing in. It doesn't make you good, the honoring. It's rather a reflection or a thumbs up of what's already in you. And so what he's saying is like, does it consist in being, does it consist in honor? Well, he says, well, first off, we have to understand honor. Honor

is given to someone else. So if you are the one being honored, no, what they're honoring in you is you're already sharing in happiness, which is the unlimited good. And so, yeah, there may be a sense in which you probably had this experience, the two different experiences of being praised. In one sense, you're being praised, and you already knew you would share in the goodness, and so your heart was already kind of delighting. And so when someone praised you, you could just say, well, thank you very much. It was nice to hear those words, but it didn't add or take anything away from you. And then there's times when you give a talk where someone praises you and you're like, oh yeah, tell me more. Tell me more how great I was. In that regard, you weren't fully sharing in the good yet. And this is what he's talking

about is the truly happy person. They chose the good and they were simply just allowed to enjoy it. They just enjoyed the good. And other people praised them for it, but they didn't need the praise. They didn't need the honor. And I think it's so important here to recognize honor isn't to be avoided or hated, but it's to recognize that it doesn't add anything to my goodness. If I'm being honored, it means the good is already at work in me. As he says, the honor isn't in you. It's not in the honored, so it can't make you happy. It's in someone else.

In one of his replies, he says, honor does not make them excellent. Honor is given because they're excellent. Ah. Do you have that in front of you? Yeah, reply to objection two. Ah, do you have that in front of you? Yeah, reply to objection two. Honor is due to God and to persons of great excellence as a sign of attestation of excellence already existing.

Not that honor makes them excellent. Yeah. Yeah, so you go to a concert. I love jazz music. So I go up and I praise the trumpet. Oh, good. I go and praise the trumpet player. I'm like, hey, great job tonight. You were so good.

I love that second song. He's like, thanks. You know, my praise of him didn't make him an excellent trumpet player. It just was a reflection that, hey, that was really good. I was just performing what was already there. That's important to recognize is that if you're seeking honor, okay, if you're seeking someone to praise you, you may not actually do the difficult work to become praiseworthy. But then let's, just like we did with money, where we tried to kind of steel man it, you know, here's the thing that comes up in my mind. I think we like to be honored because we like to be delighted in, and we want to believe

that we're delighted in. And so I think that's kind of part of it, right? And it's maybe it comes out of an insecurity of not being confident in our own goodness. Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. I think there's a natural level of enjoying being delighted in. I don't think there's nothing evil about it. I mean, should a kid say, I don't like that my parents give me compliments? I mean, that seems weird.

Could you stop that, mom? Or like, should a wife be like, I don't like that my husband says I look beautiful or that I sounded really smart today or that I made a good point. I mean, that would be ridiculous. I mean, if the good is communal, there has to be some share of the other in enjoying the good that we brought to the situation. in enjoying the good that we brought to the situation. So I think that that is good and right to enjoy that. But I also think that the honor that's really given, the deepest honor that's given is really from the Father in baptism.

He says to us in baptism, in you I delight. And Jesus in his whole ministry was receiving the delight of the Father and giving himself back to the Father, but not exclusively, not as if like, well, therefore, no one else needs to praise me. No, like he certainly wasn't able to enjoy naturally these things. I guess for me, in my mind, what I'm thinking about is I think everyone's had this experience. You go up to some Christian speaker and you say, hey, that was an awesome talk. You just really, you were articulate, clear, but just you really moved me. And like, oh, no, no, it wasn't me. It was all Jesus. Yeah, it's very annoying. Yeah, it's so painful when someone does that for me. Like when I try to praise them, they say,

no, no. I'm like, well, I mean, it did come through you because I just listened to you for an hour. And so like, I mean, if you need to go say thank you to Jesus afterwards, go ahead. But in the meantime, can I just praise you? You know, I think this is what Aquinas says. Like, yeah, it's fine. Okay, we know where it comes from. But it's also good that someone else honors you because someone else may elicit it from you more and more. Yeah, I mean, I've just been speaking at

Steubenville conferences this summer, and it's quite triggering for the speakers, actually. And more and more... Say more about that. In what way? Yeah. Triggering in that you're speaking in front of your peers, okay? So, people like myself and others who speak at Steubenville conferences are often asked and flown to different parts of the country in the world. You know, like I'm going to speak at Google next week. That's cool. I've got a group in Google who are flying me out to speak on pornography. I go to Uganda, you know, in September to speak.

Like, this is great. And when I go there, like I typically, I think, do a fairly good job. And people are pretty happy with me. And I, you know, they could do a billion things I can't, especially at Google. But here's one thing I could probably do better than them, right? Give a talk on pornography or something like that. But when I get up and speak at a Steubenville conference, what I think is triggering me is that I now have to give a talk in front of people who are my peers, who do this for a living and are going to,

they won't be able to see through, I won't be able to fake my way out of it. And I'm like, well, will I be accepted? Or will they say, oh, this is like the 15th time Matt has told this story. Why can't he think of anything new? Surely more things have happened to him in his life, or that really wasn't that good, you know? So, it's a desire to be praised right and but what i've found is when i get off stage and someone praises me i find it very difficult to hear and lately i've just been accepting it like father help me just to accept that um but but uh it's it's criticism i think it was larry david who went to a baseball game and it was, I think it was his birthday or something. And so the big camera went on him and everyone stood up. I think I'm remembering the story right and sang him happy birthday or cheered for him or something like that. And as he was walking out, someone drove by and said, hey, Larry David, you suck. And he went home and his wife said, how was the baseball game? And he said, a guy told me I sucked. said, how was the baseball game? And he said, a guy told me I sucked, you know, and that is so true of our experience. We, I don't know, like YouTube comments, you know, they might, you might get a thousand nice things and then someone says something mean and that's all you remember.

Right, right, right. What's your take on all this? Well, it's true even as a priest, right? Like you have five people after mass say, great homily. Thank you, Father. I needed to hear that. Oh, I've never heard a homily so good. And then one person's like, yeah, father, I didn't understand that story. And then they walk away and you're like, oh, great. I was totally unrelatable. And so, yeah, it's, I think it's partially now some people who are listening to this, they just, that's not their gifts. They won't ever experience being in front of people talking and then having these responses. But those who do, it's part of the courage of being vulnerable. It's part of the consequence of being vulnerable. That if you're going to go in front of people and you are going to share what you believe the Lord has given you to share. There's a vulnerability, there's a courage needed to endure

then the implications of that. I also think that this is Jesus's, one of my favorite lines of Jesus is, I only say what I hear the Father saying. I think the best I've been is when I'm really, remember, happiness is God, right? So if my happiness is in God, if I'm really only saying what I hear the Father saying, I'm in union with my fulfillment. I'm in union with the one who makes me happy. And I'm freed up from other people's comments. Now, it doesn't mean it doesn't still knack at me a little bit, the praise and the criticism. But it doesn't get to the core because my core is oriented to the father. And this is what Aquinas is trying to do is where we're trying to say, this is a

place where people will go to for fulfillment. And, you know, it gets in more in the fame and glory portion here, but like, he'll say like, if you're going to others to be honored or, and you don't get that honor, then you're miserable. You're setting yourself up literally for other people to have power over you. If you go to others for fame, you want to be glorious and known and famous. If that's what you're seeking, other people are in charge of you. And I think built into the teaching is the freedom that if what you really seek is the Father's will, if you're really seeking his words, I only say what I see the Father saying, I only do what I hear the Father doing, then you are freed up to live in Christ. For freedom's sake, I set you free.

What is freedom's sake? To find the fulfillment of your deepest longing is that I've inspired you from baptism so that you can find union with God. And so it's like a beautiful freedom built into, if I wage war against the temptation to seek my fulfillment in others, I don't become a jerk or neutral. I'm actually allowing other people to be what they are. Oh, you enjoyed this. Oh, you didn't. Tell me more. But it doesn't affect me because I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Yeah, as I begin to listen to what the Father thinks of me, as I begin to receive His delight and stand in that sonship that He's won for me,

I do find the criticisms and the praise, they don't matter so much. Right. I guess holiness is like this long process in which you're slowly dropping the facade and accepting who you are in Christ. This happened to me yesterday. I mean, I run a podcast called Pints with Aquinas, and people accidentally make the mistake of thinking I'm brilliant because I have a show about Aquinas. I'm not stupid, but I'm not brilliant. I'm brilliant because I have a show about Aquinas. I'm not stupid, but I'm not brilliant. And so, but there's been a temptation in the past to like get nervous when people start questioning me about Aquinas. I'm like, gosh, I should know this. I should seem smart about this. If I don't,

like, what do I have, you know? And it's so sneaky, but just lately, like being a son of the father, accepting his love, knowing who I am, it's just so much easier. Like, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I've never thought about about it you'd probably know more than me and that being totally okay yeah you know horrifically freeing there's a book on uh carthusian spirituality i forget the name of it or whatever but the head monk was asked a question and he just remained silent because he's carthusian no no he was giving permission to talk. And he, uh, they said, you know, what do you do here for all the wars in the middle East? How are you helping? And he goes, Oh, I don't know. He goes, but when a guy down the hallway is sick, I bring him soup and I pray with him. Like there's a firm understanding that like not every issue is even meant for me to do anything

about. Cause I'm, I'm a little bug. I'm a little creature. Now I'm a beloved little creature, but I am a little creature. And so like, you know, when we're younger, we tend to think like, I'm going to go save the world. And as you, as you mature in the spiritual life, I think you're like, I bring that guy down the hall, some soup, and I pray with him. And like, I brought kindness and goodness and love into the world and i did my part sorry would you have any suggestions for us and for you for others you know who are like social media is a nasty place um the internet can be a nasty place i should preface it with it and you know we get criticism from people who just speak so harshly, and it can really kind of

ruin our day, you know. I haven't been, I don't even have the passwords to my social media for over a year and a half now. It's been a lot, it's been nice. I don't get to see all the angry things people are tweeting at me. I have somebody who runs my social media, so they tweet things for me. I don't see what people say in response, you know, so it's been bloody great for me, but I remember, like, getting comments and just really upsetting me. And I know I'm not alone. I know many of us are like that. So I don't know, do you use social media or? No, I don't. Um, that's good. The main reason I don't is, uh, I just found it to be like a wormhole where I just was, you know, time throughout my day.

And I was distracted by trivial things by doing it. But I do have a great sensitivity. I think there's a lot of good in social media. I really do. But like you said, there's a lot of nasty. And so I think one of the things I just want to say is I can't think of a gospel passage or in the letters of St. Paul where I see any of the apostles or Jesus running after someone to know what they thought. Like Jesus coming down from the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah.

What did you think about that? Was that too much? Was that too abrasive? Was it too black and white for you guys? Should I have nuanced it more for you? I just, and I don't think it's because he's somehow like a haughty, clearly he's not a haughty, arrogant jerk who doesn't care what people think. Jesus was tender and meek and gentle, but it's because once again, he was ad patrum. He sincerely only said what I hear the Father saying to you. only said what I hear the Father saying to you. And so what I've said to you is the most loving and the most truth-filled and the most merciful thing I could tell you right now.

That's what I'm giving you. And so he's like, what else would I be apologetic for? And he left up to the Father, working it out in their hearts. So he said and did what he thought he really believed the Lord was telling him to do. Now, he might not have been right. Okay. Now, Jesus always was. Like, you and I might not be right all the time. But we have friends.

We pray. We have enough filters in our life to call us out. We don't need some rando person on Twitter being like, I one time heard you use the word the, and it should have been them. Like, well, thank you very much. But like, but I just think, I just look, I don't see Jesus hunting people down. And I think social media has made us so self-absorbed that we always are looking at how people are, what they're thinking of us, that we're missing out on the freedom that I just said what I heard the Father saying. And boy, you people loved it, you people did not. Okay. And guess what? That was in Jesus's life as well. And if we are paralyzed by that, or afraid, and I get that way,

I'll get afraid. Or like, you know, yesterday I had some people criticizing some of my homilies over the weekend. And, uh, I literally, I came, what's that like? It sucks. It's the worst because I'm not super holy, I guess. But also in this case, I don't know that I said what I thought the father was saying. Uh, I didn't put the time in necessary to really receive from him what I should have. And so people were a little critical and I came back and I went out and had a great critical. And I came back and I went out and had a great dinner, but I came back and I was sad. I was super sad because I was like, oh man. Now I've been dealing with these types of responses in my heart for a long time. So I could

see where the train was going. And I was able to call a friend and spend some time in night prayer, bringing it before the Lord. And I could stop it going from anywhere self-destructive. But I know I learned from it. And so this morning before I preach, I spent time with the Father asking what should I say. And my homily for morning mass was from my heart really beautiful. And the response was so grateful and sincere. But I also have to be careful how much of that is me seeking honor. Right.

Like a means to an end. Like I say what the Father says so that I can be praised. So that I can be praised. Right. It's the other way around, right? I say what the Father says so that I can be close to the Father so that in union with him I may have my happiness. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Let's look at the next article. so the the first one the second one there was we've done wealth we've just done honors and now we're doing fame and glory which sounds very similar to honors um here is how he's going to kind of define it i think by fame and glory, he means being well known and praised. And that this is slightly different to honors in that we're very well known, we're very well praised. Who would be some examples, do you think, like people wish they were? I think in the Catholic world, you could say like a Bishop Robert Barron, a Scott a scott han um christopher west these are big names in the catholic world you know yeah and i guess in the secular world like i could see people saying like i wish i was joe rogan and had that kind of influence right or i wish exactly or you can even go even secularly right like a cardinal swift or yeah exactly uh you know justin bieber then you

know if i was that you know that i wish i was this person's poster on my wall, something like that. Yeah. It's not about being well known and liked. It's weird. Like, it's weird that I feel really special when people recognize me. Like, I was in the airport the other day and someone came up to me and went, hey, oh my gosh, it's so good to see you. I watch your videos. They're amazing. And I felt terrific. And I probably should have felt terrific. I don't think we should be so stoic. They were like, I don't know. I think there'd probably be something weird about that too, right? If I didn't care. Right. No, absolutely. I mean, and you'll see that once again, he makes these great distinctions, right? That if being praised, if what is it called? If fame and glory is

being well-known and praised, well, it's not like we should seek the opposite, being ignored and criticized, right? That's not the goal of life either. The saints tell us to seek that only as a means to reorient our hearts to God. So like if you have something bent, this is Aristotle, right? If you have a re-bent in one direction towards one vice, you have to bend it almost way past the virtue towards the other vice so that it can then snap back into the middle. Similarly, if you are loving – go ahead. then snap back into the middle. Similarly, if you are loving... Go ahead. I was just going to say, let's say I had some prominent

apostolate and it turns out I was embezzling funds and doing all sorts of awful things. And let's say I had the trace of humility in me, my spiritual director might say in that sense, go into hiding for a year and do penance or two

years. So in that case, it? Okay, go into hiding, like for a year, and do penance, or two years, you know? So in that case, it could be like a way to remedy it, but it's not the final goal to be, as you say, ignored and criticized. Exactly. This is why Aquinas is so human. He's a humanist. He doesn't want our humanity beat up, but he knows it needs healing. And so, you know, this is why there's a famous phrase from John of the Cross. Of course, I can't remember it. But it's something like, you know, don't seek pleasure, seek pain. Don't seek honor, seek misfortunes.

You know, he goes, he tells you, don't seek health, seek sickness. Because what he's saying is, like, in our selfish, plagued with original sin, we'll seek all these things that really are going to be hurting us because it's not God. So he says, seek the opposite direction, not because we should want pain, sickness ignored, but rather to orient ourselves. But the goal is still God. The goal is still very much God and enjoying the things God is putting in our lives and doing for us. And so that's why it's helpful to have a good confessor or spirit director or friends who can help us walk that road. Let's look at the said contra and the respondio. Feel free to stop me at any point.

This is very – I mean, it's similar, isn't it? It's very similar to what we've just looked at. Because, again, just like honor isn't in me, it's in someone else. I think he's going to say something similar with fame. So the said conjurer is, happiness is man's true good, but it happens that fame or glory is false. For as Boethius says, many owe their renown to the lying reports spread among the people.

Can anything be more shameful for those who receive false fame must needs blush at their own praise. Therefore, man's happiness does not consist in fame or glory. Now, already I'm kind of tripped up because he says here, what does he say here? Happiness means you're good, but it happens that fame or glory is false. I don't know what that means. Yeah, so what he just means here is we tend to automatically think of fame and glory as like, oh, it's true about the person. So Justin Bieber is a good singer. And so, yeah, so he's well-known and he's praised because he's a good singer.

Well, that's true. But he's saying you could be well-known and praised for things that aren't true and still be well-known and praised. And if you're seeking that and you're getting to be popular and praised for something that's not true, he says, well, then that's the most, could there be anything more shameful? You're not even good. So he's saying, he's just pointing out that simply being, I'll use the word popular. It's easier for us to know being popular and praised he goes is it could be for something that's not even real about you yeah that's what he's saying what if it is real about you because it doesn't sound like he's even leaving that option open he's just well he goes he talks more about it the i let's do that i answer that man's happiness cannot consist in human fame or glory. For glory consists in being well known and praised, as Ambrose says.

Now, the thing known is related to human knowledge otherwise than to God's knowledge. For human knowledge is caused by the things known, whereas God's knowledge is the cause of the things known. So, just slow down there for a second. My knowledge, here's kind of what he's saying, right? Like, my knowledge of this computer in front of me is being caused, in a sense, by the computer that's acting on my intellect, I think, whereas God's knowledge is the cause of all things. He continues, wherefore the perfection of human good, which is called happiness, cannot be caused by human knowledge, but rather human knowledge of another's happiness proceeds from and in a fashion is caused by human happiness itself. And then I do not know what that word is. I wasn't following you.

I was just listening. I apologize. It's I-N-C-H-O-A-T-E. I've never seen it before. I'll just skip. I apologize. It's I-N-C-H-O-A-T-E. I've never seen it before. Well, just skip it because it's not in front of me. Human happiness itself. Consequently, man's happiness cannot consist in fame or glory. On the other hand, man's good depends on God's knowledge as its cause,

and therefore man's beatitude depends, as on its cause, on the glory which man has with God. According to Psalm 90, I will deliver him and I will glorify him. I will fill him with length of days and I will show him my salvation. All right, one more sentence here. He says, furthermore, we must observe that human knowledge often fails, especially in contingent singulars, such as our human acts. For this reason, human glory is frequently deceptive. But since God cannot be deceived, his glory is always true. Hence, it is written, he is approved whom God commendeth. There we go. Yeah, so I think what I'm just, I think what he's

saying here, I'm going to kind of water it down big time, and therefore some of the nuances will be lost. But what he's showing, though, is the nature of happiness for a human being is not caused in simply a human operation, but in participating in divine activity. And so because of that, because we know that something's greater than us, right, the divine essence, that God is greater than me. And we know that. And so we realize in God is where I find my fulfillment. And so I have to become God-like to find my fulfillment. Human fame being popular and stuff, that happens with other human beings.

Like that's, if you will, the old distinction. That's a horizontal level of happiness versus a vertical. I think the thing that I want to point out most, though, is to desire glory, to want to be honored or glorified, to be known and praised, that is not evil. But where you're seeking it can be destructive. So he says, he even quotes here that Psalm 90, God says to you and to me and to everyone listening, listening to God, listen to God say this to you. I will deliver him and I will glorify him. God is saying, I am the one that knows you and will literally praise you. I will glorify you. But if we're seeking glory from every other person,

if we're taking that same desire to be honored and glorified, we're taking it to human beings, we will miss out on our happiness because sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes they'll praise us for things that we don't have that's right or isn't actually in us. And it's going to be, and it changes for each group. I mean, Matt, you probably know this better than I do, but you got a degree, I think, in philosophy as well, a master's. But like the way you speak at a Steubenville conference, if you did that to present like a master's paper in philosophy, that probably would not have gone over too well. No, get out.

Yeah. So if you're seeking popularity and praise from people, you have to change every time. Yeah. But if you're seeking to please the Lord, you just have to be what he's calling you to be. Oh, I like that. Yeah. And he'll know. He'll know what group each, each group needs us in that. Um, but yeah, it's, it's once again, Aquinas isn't saying it's evil. I mean, should John Paul of the second become a monk instead of Pope because he might've

been known and praised? Well, of course not. But it was up to, if John Paul II wanted to have fulfillment and union with God, he had to make sure that when he was doing World Youth Days or Wednesday Audiences or things like that, he was really seeking the Lord and not what other people would think of him. Yeah. I think it's Mark 11 where the father says, this is my son in whom I am well pleased. And somehow learning to believe that and to receive it's Mark 11, where the father says, this is my son in whom I am well pleased. And somehow learning to believe that and to receive it from the father, because I think

a lot of us, like one of my deepest fears, I think, is that, well, I'm just talking this through. I'm not sure if I mean this, but you can help me. It's this fear of being discovered and found to be a fraud, right? So, like, when people tell me, like, that was amazing, like, your book really helped me, like, there's this sense, like, I am a broken man, like, and I'm not, I'm so afraid of being found out, you know? And I imagine that the, I think, to some degree, I suppose we all kind of struggle with that. And I imagine that the richer you are, the more famous you are, the more terrifying that suspicion becomes, because if you are right, it's a much further way down to the ground. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's something true about that. I think it's one of the reasons sometimes it's tough, like, I'm a parish priest, right? I'm a

parochial vicar. There's something very comforting about being not in charge. Yeah. Right. I'm not as anything happens at the parish, contact the pastor. I don't have my own apostolate. You know, I just, so yeah, there's something about being known and the fear of that. And of course that's what drives almost every destructive behavior is the desire to hide. Yeah. Is that if someone really saw me right now, they would reject me. And so I have to hide and stepping out into the light, being like Adam and Eve naked before the Lord and another person is our paradise. But it looks to us like our hell. And so it's it's not easy. So there's a lot of gentleness

and encouragement there that as you, you know, that's what the confessional is like. If only someone, if someone hears just this part of the podcast, I'm going to be kicked out of priesthood, but like in many ways, confession is where we get naked. Yeah. As the church father said, you get naked before the Lord and another person, which actually was paradise. But when Christ was stripped naked, he was put to death because in a fallen world, we hate vulnerability. Yeah. And so there is something about going deep, deep, deep, deep within, always with the help of God, deep, deep, deep within to then bring to the surface what we discover there, that we would rather do anything else.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, this is great. I mean, having come off this retreat experience recently and just like walking in this dynamic relationship with the Father, what I mean by that is it's like an interactive thing where I'm sensing His delight sensing his delight I'm talking back to him right um as I live in this I feel like one of the things the father is telling me is to stop hiding and it's in very silly ways that I hide I'll just give you like two examples um I noticed you know recently like I was sitting on the couch and I was playing a video game, which I do infrequently, but occasionally very much enjoy. And my family were out. And so I was just having this nice kind of like time on my own. And I heard the garage door open.

And without thinking, I stood up, shut the laptop and like was about to start busying myself with something. I thought, what was that? Why would it be unacceptable for me to sit and to relax? And, you know, of course, I'm looking back into my past and seeing how this was a learned behavior. Another thing that I found very embarrassing about myself is I have a bit I have a bit of a belly. Now it's not a huge belly, but it's something I am really embarrassed about. Like it's something I'm really aware of. So I'm constantly like sucking my gut in. I have this frame, whereas like some people might have like a big frame and maybe they, their fat is spread all over them. And so at least

it kind of looks cool because they look big. Whereas for me, like I'll eat crap and it's just my belly. It just all goes to my gut. And I've been on the stage at Steubenville. I just feel the Father. Now, people who aren't walking with the Lord right now won't understand what I'm about to say. I know you will, Father, right? But it's like the Heavenly Father is like, let your gut out. Like, just let it out. Now, that is not a trivial thing, because what the Father is saying to me is, you're acceptable. And all those things that you hide from yourself and from other people, like, you don't need to do it. You can stop doing it. Stop hiding. Like, be you. I know that makes sense to you. No, very much so. It's been much of the journey for me to priesthood and still as a priest. You know, I can feel one of these things in reading this Aquinas guy, have you ever heard of him?

It's just like how much pressure there is from other people on me as a priest, or at least that I feel they're putting on me, to be the priest in their own making. Okay. What does that mean? on me to be the priest in their own making. Um, and well, like, you know, so if I want to please the people, I should preach about this, but not this. I should, I should act like this, but not this. I should wear this, but not this. Um, and, uh, and of course any priest has been a priest at a parish longer than a month realizes, well, it's absolutely impossible to do that, play that game because it's, everyone has their own preferences, but you're going to make enemies. Yeah. But it's, it's, it can be difficult. Um, and, and this fame or this popularity is a, uh, to be known and praised, um, is very, very tempting because we automatically equate it with, therefore, I'm good.

And it's as if we're saying, if we read it on the deepest level, if all of you know me and like me, then I'm good. But if you don't, at best, I'm ambivalent, but most likely I'm not. And see, in this speaks of that spirit of atheism and a spirit really of the accuser, the enemy, because God creates us very good. In baptism, he delights in us. Jesus is alive and growing in our hearts. We have been a part of the mystical body, and we are growing in glory, St. Paul tells us. And so God has already done his work. Now, we're not perfect. We're morally compromised. We're intellectually sluggish. Our passions are out of whack at times.

But those aren't things that define us. Those are things we have to suffer and work on, but they don't define us. And so this fame and glory is a real, the invitation here by Jesus, I feel like, is would you look at the one who's already looking at you with favor? Like it's as if he grabs your chin and moves you up and you can see his eyes. And he says, hi, i've always loved you yeah did you look at me because i am here delighting enjoying it doesn't matter so much what the rest thing i just thought of this analogy it would be like if i was singing you know in high school i used to play guitar suppose i was to kind of get up in front of the entire school and sing a song if the one girl i find the cutest and want to date is delighting in me i do not give a crap what everybody else thinks.

They may as well not be there. This is not about them anyway. She delights in me. Glory! Yeah, no, exactly. That is an awesome analogy. Yeah, exactly. And I just think it's so important because once you receive the affirmation of the Father, that is to say, once you come to accept that truth that you have been created and

intended by him, there's a whole heck of freedom. Because now no one else can define you. They may reveal what God has already shown you, or they may nitpick at it, and so that will hurt. But Jesus already went there so that even in the nitpicking, you're in union with the one who loves you. And so this, you know, happiness has to be stable. Well, other people's opinions are not stable. Right. I mean, it's based on if they've had their coffee, how their digestion is. It's based on the last priest they saw in my life, the guy I replaced here at this parish. Oh, we liked that he began his homilies with a joke. Yeah. Well, I put – Tell us a nice story, Fab. Yeah, I put my jokes in all over the place.

Sometimes at the beginning just to get your attention so I can preach another minute longer because then I've got your attention for another minute. But it's so – it's like water. It's like trying to hold water in your hand. It will fall out so quickly. But the thing is, is what you're seeking is not bad, but it's already being offered in the one who loves you, God. And I think that's what Aquinas is trying to say is like, hey, like lift your eyes up. What is Aquinas, Augustine's definition of sin is curved in on ourselves. That we're just curved so we can't see God, others or ourself the right way. Right. Well, that's Bonaventure talks about that too. Yeah.

Yeah. And then so, that's why Jesus was crucified open and erect was that he was looking up at the Father because he could see the Father, others, and himself the right way. Oh, I didn't find that second bit. Yeah, that's cool. Two prayers as we wrap up today that I might suggest I pray. These are things I often pray, and these are things I might suggest others pray, and maybe you have something to say on them. The first is, Father, tell me you love me until I finally give in and believe you. That's something I like to pray. Another one is, Father, help me, or no, not even just to help me, but to claim it, right? So, Father, I accept your acceptance of me. Now, that isn't to say that I'm not a sinner in need of repentance, that I'm not broken in need of healing. All of that's true. But the Father accepts me as His Son. He accepts you as His Son or as His daughter, depending on who's listening,

right? What do you think of those sorts of prayers? I love them. And I just want to say, the reason they're hard to find in the tradition, because I think that's what causes us Catholics so many problems, is I think a lot of times we know like, oh, these type of prayers are what I need. But like, it seems like the saints are like, Lord, have mercy on me, I'm a miserable snake. I'm so glad you're bringing this up right now. Yeah. But I think one of the reasons is, is it can be found in the Vatican II document Gaudium et Spes. And in there it says, it's something, this is a Father Ryan Mann translation, so buckle up everyone. It says, when God is ignored, we don't know who we are. Yeah. And so we're in an era where literally the Christian God, the active God who's personal and

personally communicating is ignored, rejected, and mocked. And so we literally don't know who we are. rejected and mocked. And so we literally don't know who we are. And so we have to reclaim his revelation of delight, love, and commitment so that we can know who we are. In a way that Aquinas may not have had to. Right. And so that we can claim who we are and then begin the process of becoming who we're called to be. And so, yes, we do have to do a lot of work at this foundational level. God loves me. He's seeking me. He's accepting me. He's healing me. He's blessing me. And yes, we do have to do a lot of work at this foundational level. God loves me. He's seeking me. He's accepting me. He's healing me.

He's blessing me. And, yes, built into that will be my awareness that, okay, I now, with his love, in communion with Christ, I have to go to war on certain sins in my life. But not to war against me. I am loved. I'm the gift. I'm a son. not to war against me. I am loved. I'm the gift. I'm a son. But to war against the things around me and in me that are taking me from this place of beauty and love and intimacy. And as we looked at today, some of those places that take us away are, you know, this fame and glory and stuff like

this. But it can be all sorts of things in our lives. Aquinas doesn't name evil things that we seek love in. He names good things that we sometimes mistake as our end. So that's very important. Beautiful. Thank you for your words of wisdom. Next week, we're going to discuss pleasure, goods of the body and the soul. Power. Power. So I'm looking forward to that. But thanks so much for being on. Absolutely. Thank you. And God bless everyone all right bye bye i love that man so much thank you so much for tuning into pints with aquinas this week and a big thanks to all of you who are supporting the

show and making it happen at patreon.com slash matt frad if you want to start supporting the show for a dollar a month 10 bucks a month you start getting rewards right away and you're more than the rewards right this isn't me trying to pander with rewards. I think most people don't just give because they want to sign book or a beer sign. I think people are giving because they are happy to see content that's hopefully well-produced, hopefully fully Catholic and thoughtful. So if you want to be part of that, go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. A big thanks. Again, as I said in the beginning of this episode, this is the second in a three-part series on happiness. And so next week, we are going to begin discussing other things like can pleasure make us happy?

Can the goods of the body make us happy? And a whole lot else besides. Chat with you then. Too many grains of salt and juice Lest we be frauds or worse accused Hollow me to deep and near