Pints With Aquinas - 175: Aquinas on the Transfiguration

Episode Date: October 15, 2019

Today I sit down with Fr. Dominic Legge to discuss what Aquinas said about the transfiguration of Christ. Here's what we were reading from today: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4045.htm SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. You probably bloody well know that by now, but I thought I'd tell you anyway. Today we're joined around the bar table by Father Dominic Legg from the Thomistic Institute to take a deep dive into what Thomas Aquinas had to say about just what happened at the Transfiguration of Christ. Here we go. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas, the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and Father Dominic Legge to discuss theology and philosophy. Father Dominic Legg, for those of you who are not aware, is the director of the Thomistic Institute as well as assistant professor in systematic theology at the Pontifical Faculty of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C. And today, we take a look at what Thomas Aquinas has to say about the Transfiguration. I learned a lot through having this conversation with Father Dominic Legg,

and you will too. Hey, something really cool just happened. Myself and Father Gregory Pine have been working on a book called... I literally had to just look it up because I forgot what they titled it. When you write a book, the publisher gets the last say. Okay, I'm just saying. All right, so anyway, here's the name of the book, Marian Consecration with Aquinas, and then the subtitle is A Nine-Day Path for Growing Closer to the Mother of God. I had a lot of fun working on this book with

Father Gregory Pine. Basically, what we did is there's eight days of preparation before making consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and many people don't know this, but Thomas Aquinas had a lot of very beautiful things to say about the Blessed Mother. And so each day we reflect upon a big chunk of Aquinas' text, be that from the Summa Theologiae or his commentary on the Hail Mary or one of his academic sermons on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and then we help you understand it. And then the final day is a very long and beautiful prayer that not a lot of people know Aquinas actually wrote to help entrust yourself to the Blessed Virgin Mary. So, you know, if you've tried reading things like St. Louis de Montfort's True Devotion to Mary and, you know, kind of gave up maybe, but you really would like to grow closer to the

Blessed Virgin Mary, this book will be coming out towards the end of this year, that's the hope, with Benedict Press. So be on the lookout. I'll be sure to announce it when it arrives. But yeah, really excited about it. And I've actually showed the book cover over on Patreon. So if you want to go and check the book out, go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. You don't have to be a patron to see it. And you can look at this deliciously delightful front cover that the guys at Benedict Press have come up with. Sound good? All right, here is my interview with Father Dominic Legg. Father Dominic Legg, thanks for being back on Pints with Aquinas.

Hey, it's great to be with you. Yes. Now, you guys are doing some amazing stuff over there at the Thomistic Institute. Tell us a bit about it. Well, you know, the Thomistic Institute is originally for research into the thought of Thomas Aquinas, and so we put on conferences here at the Dominican House of Studies in Washington, D.C. We just had a great conference entitled Salvation in Christ. We had five, well, I should say four great theological experts plus myself, so I got to be on the program. But that helps when you're

actually organizing the program. You can sometimes like give yourself a speaking gig. But in addition to that, of course, we have our campus chapters around the country on college campuses. And that keeps us very busy. So that's bringing top notch Catholic intellectuals, especially Thomists out to these secular college campuses and helping them come into contact with the thought of Aquinas, because I really think that it can transform your mind and it can make an enormous difference to someone's university education to get that kind of orientation to just the powerful insight into the coherence of the truth of the natural world and also of the Catholic faith that Aquinas gives you. And then we just, as you know, have launched our Aquinas 101 video series, which is basically a series of video courses, short little videos

that you watch in sequence. Two come out per week, so one on Tuesday, one on Thursdays. You can sign up at Aquinas101.com, and actually, it's going really, really well. I'm so proud of that work. It's been a lot of work. A couple of us here, Father Gregory Pine, who you know and has been on your show, and myself, we've been producing these videos along with Father Thomas Joseph White and Father James Brent. And that has taken us about a year to get these videos coming out. So it's an enormous investment, uh, for us, but it's because we want to make Aquinas accessible

to people. And, you know, it's, it's a resource that doesn't really exist. We're trying to kind of systematically go through Aquinas's thought, especially in the SUMA, like from beginning to end. So the idea is if you follow this course, which is going to have about 85 videos in it, from the beginning to the end, you will basically be exposed to the whole of Aquinas' main work. Not in, you know, not in the same kind of detail you'd have if you went to graduate school, of course, but it's a great introduction and a way to get started.

And I'm so happy that the quality befits the content. I want to make that clear to our listeners. This isn't y'all just setting up a webcam and talking into it. These are really well-produced videos. Yeah, we actually have some behind-the-scenes photos that we took of Father Thomas Joseph. I just saw the photos today, and you get a sense of, you know, the setting up the background and all the lighting. And then, you know, what has been surprisingly challenging for Father Gregory and myself is helping the production team come up with the right animations because we've got like little computer animations that illustrate the points that we're talking about. But when

you're talking about, for example, divine simplicity, like what animation do you use? You know, it's like not obvious how to animate that. Or, you know, I was talking about how the mind comes into contact with reality. Well, that's kind of a big picture issue. And we don't want to illustrate it by like putting a brain floating in space surrounded by a galaxy or something. You know, that's not what we mean.

I'm thinking of angels, you know, you're like, well, we don't want to do the cliche thing. So if you could just draw a disembodied intellect. Yes, exactly. So it's really pushed us to come up with creative ways to depict that stuff. But I think it's working. So we've had tremendous success in the subscriptions. I hope more people will subscribe. So if you're listening to this show and you haven't subscribed yet, please go to Aquinas101.com.

What happens when they do that? Do they start getting emails? How does that work? Yeah, the way it works is you get an email once on Tuesday, once on Thursday. It has the video for that week or for that episode, for that course session. it has the video for that week or for that episode, for that course session. And then it has a recommended podcast that is one of our on-campus lectures taught by one of the, you know, one of the scholars that we have going out to these college campuses that's also on the subject. So if you want to go a little deeper, you can pursue the video with a podcast. And then there's a text or two, a short text, basically, of some

supplementary reading that we've chosen. Sometimes it's from a secondary source, like, for example, John Pierre Tourelle, who's a famous biographer of Thomas Aquinas. We've had some extracts of his so far. But then we're going to be working into actually texts from Aquinas so that you're learning how to read Aquinas' own writings. Yeah, I'll be sure to share this on social media too. Hey, before we go on, tell people what this dog with the flaming torch in its mouth means and why that's connected with the Dominican order. I'm looking on Aquinas101.com right now and I'm seeing that and some people don't know what that is. and I'm seeing that, and some people don't know what that is.

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Ministry, and more. Best of all, you don't need an undergraduate degree in theology or philosophy to enroll in these programs. So here's what I want you to do. I want you to go to franciscan.university slash pints. Okay? Did you hear me? Good. Because I really want them to do. I want you to go to franciscan.university.pints. Okay. Did you hear me? Good. Because I really want them to know that these adverts are bloody well working. So franciscan.university.pints for more information about graduate theology and catechetics at Franciscan University of Steubenville. That's franciscan.university.com. Pints, like of beer. franciscan.university.com. Tell people what this dog with the flaming torch in its mouth means and why that's connected with the Dominican order.

I'm looking on Aquinas101.com right now, and I'm seeing that, and some people don't know what that is. Yeah, okay, so there's a famous story behind that. According to the story, when St. Dominic's mother was pregnant with him, she had a dream one night that she gave birth to a dog. And the dog ran over to the fireplace and snatched a burning log out of the fire and started running around the world, setting the whole world on fire. world, setting the whole world on fire. And then, of course, you know, her son ended up being this apostle of bringing the word of God to the world. And the Dominican order took this story about St. Dominic and kind of saw it as a kind of icon of the Dominican order. But it also works because in Latin, as you know, having dusted off your Latin dictionary,

you know, Dominicus, that's his name in Latin, or Dominicanez, which is the name of the Dominican order in Latin. If you break that into two words, Dominicanez, you have dogs of the Lord. So even the name Dominican has this kind of reference to a dog in it, if you're clever. Now, and doesn't it have something to do with the sheepdog, too, who were defending the flock against the heretical wolves? I've got this beautiful painting in my office, actually. Yes, that's right. That's one of the other traditional associations of it. Yeah, exactly. Yes, that's right.

That's one of the other traditional associations of it. Yeah, exactly. That's fantastic. All right. Well, fantastic. Okay, well, I'm excited about today. We're going to be talking about one of the most famous and memorable episodes in the New Testament, which is the Transfiguration of Christ. So let's do it. Let's turn to question 45 in the, where is it, the tertiary part?

The third part, exactly. Yes, and let's begin. So what's the transfiguration? What happened there? Well, of course, you remember the gospel episode. Jesus takes three disciples up a high mountain, Mount Tabor, and there he's transfigured before them, and his clothing, or he becomes whiter, you know, brighter than any fuller, any, you know,

bleacher could make them. And then there is the appearance of Moses and Elijah who are speaking with him about his exitus. That's actually the term in one of the Gospels, his passing over. And then the cloud overshadows them and a voice comes from heaven. This is my beloved son. Listen to him. So that's the that's the great moment of the transfiguration. Of course, Peter, James, and John are there. They're overwhelmed. Peter, and they fall down.

Peter says, not knowing what he's saying, Lord, it is good that we are here. Let us build three booths, one for you, one for Moses, one for Elijah, not knowing what he was saying. And then you have this voice from heaven. So very powerful moment in the Gospels. Yeah. This is something that I often hear brought up at youth conferences and other events that are highly emotional or elicit a sort of response of faith, you know, that we too are like Peter, who wish to remain on this mountain, but we have to descend back down to ordinary life and Jesus will come with us. But I mean, that's kind of the extent, I think, of what a lot of people

have thought of when they think of this passage. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's a famous, so when you look at Aquinas' text in question 45, article one, if, you know, if we want to turn to that, Aquinas begins, you know, by asking, is it fitting that Jesus was transfigured? And of course, his answer to that is going to be obviously yes. But now he's trying to, so the question really is when, when Aquinas asks something like this, the question just isn't, well, is it fitting, but what does it mean? Like, why did it happen? So what's the intelligibility in it? Not that it, in a certain sense, necessarily had to happen, but it was, how does it fit into the whole plan of salvation and the

whole plan of the mission of the Son in the incarnation? So that's what Aquinas is taking up. And it's very interesting. This is one of these texts. It's a great example of why Aquinas is a patristic theologian. I mean, why Aquinas basically is giving you a kind of a very tight, concise, edited down synthesis of the church fathers. Now, people don't often recognize that, that, you know, you can't always just read it right off of the page in Aquinas. But if you know about the tradition standing behind Aquinas and you know how to read it, then what you see when you read a passage like this one, article one of question 45, is that Aquinas is just like weaving together the church fathers and their explanation. So in a way, fathers and their explanation. So in a way, Aquinas is giving you a really, really great theologian's summary of a whole long tradition of theological reflection.

Yeah, and I've got open in another tab here his Cantea Aurea, where he just does that, lists what the fathers he's familiar with have to say about this particular passage. what the fathers he's familiar with have to say about this particular passage. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I worked on this particular question, the transfiguration in Aquinas, and tried to trace out the influence of the church fathers on Aquinas' thinking here. And I was amazed at what I discovered, just the number of church fathers that Aquinas clearly had read. And, you know, now it's not this text because it's not in the Summa, but in Aquinas' commentary on Matthew chapter 17.

So, you know, the gospel of Matthew 17, chapter 17, that's where the transfiguration occurs in Matthew's gospel. And when Aquinas gets to that part of the gospel and he's commenting on the transfiguration passage, he basically, you know, this is my theory. Now, can I prove it? Absolutely. No, I can't prove it, but I think there's pretty good evidence for it. If you get out John Chrysostom's homily on Matthew 17, on the transfiguration, so John Chrysostom has one famous homily. He's, you know, of course, one of the church fathers. He has a famous homily on the Transfiguration.

If you get that out and you read it, and then you read Aquinas' commentary on Matthew 17, what you discover is that it looks an awful lot to me like Aquinas has Chrysostom's homily on the podium in front of him. Wow. And he is just paraphrasing it and commenting on it as he goes through. Now, he doesn't tell you that he's doing that. But when you read them together, you're like, oh, my gosh, these are they're making the same five points in the same order. Like that. That's hard. It's hard to imagine that's a coincidence. And, you know, Aquinas famously said when he was

going into the city of Paris with his socius, Reginald, you know, he had a Dominican brother who was his secretary and traveled with him. And as they were walking into the city of Paris, Reginald said, look at this beautiful city. Isn't it incredible? And Aquinas said, I would gladly trade the whole city of Paris for John Chrysostom's commentary on Matthew. And, you know, actually, you see, Aquinas loved John Chrysostom's commentary on Matthew. And, you know, actually, you see, Aquinas loved John Chrysostom. And so he was doing that when he was teaching this material. You know, he's just like taking the insights from John Chrysostom and like commenting and, you know, summarizing them for his students. And that's interesting because we know that the commentary on Matthew is basically

notes that one of the students in Aquinas' classroom wrote down. And Aquinas did not go back and edit those, but they were, so it's called a reportatio. So it's basically just student notes. And so sometimes a little elliptical, but, and that's why it gets less attention. This isn't true of the whole, you know, I have actually the Gospel of Matthew commentary of Aquinas. You're not saying the whole thing is notes from his students, are you? Oh, I believe so, yeah. Gosh. Now, I could be mistaken.

I'm ready to stand corrected because I'm just kind of speaking out the cup. No, I don't know anything different. It's fascinating, though, that someone could be that thorough and precise as they write down what their teacher's saying. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, in the Middle Ages, they were pretty good about stuff. Well, they had a whole system, you know. They had one person, and it might not have been actually a student. It might have been one of Aquinas' secretaries. But anyway, there was a person assigned in the classroom whose job it was was to take down the notes. And sometimes and this was common in the Middle Ages for other teachers, too. Sometimes those notes would then be given back to the teacher and he would go through and reedit them.

And that's what Aquinas did with the John commentary. So the John commentary is like Aquinas gave the lecture, he got the notes, then he rewrote the notes. And that's why it's a little more finished and a little, you know, so the John commentary in a way is more interesting. It goes into more depth on some questions that the Matthew commentary gives you, I think, a better sense of like just what it was like to sit in a classroom and listen to Aquinas. Fantastic. All right. So what was it about this commentary on the Transfiguration that surprised you, other than the fact that it's very based in patristic teaching and reflection? What is it we can learn from Aquinas when it comes to the Transfiguration?

Well, so Aquinas picks up the standard teaching, the kind of main principle insight, which originally comes from Leo the Great. And Leo the Great has a famous sermon on the transfiguration where he says that why did the transfiguration happen? It was to strengthen the disciples in preparation for Christ's passion. So basically Jesus knew that he was going to be going to Jerusalem to suffer. And he knew that this was going to be really a challenge to his disciples, like his disciples would be tempted to fall away. They would be tempted to lose their faith in him. And he wanted to, you know, because basically, it's the greatest manifestation of weakness and vulnerability of like, well, not just the rejection by his own people.

That would be hard enough. But the guy that you've seen walking around with this incredible wisdom, with the preaching, with all the miracles, the healings, somebody who you have come to believe is not just the Messiah, but the son of God, you know, as Peter confesses. And then you see him actually tortured and killed in apparent in apparent weakness. You know, that's like the ultimate defeat. And obviously it did shake the disciples. the disciples. So Leo's point is that the reason the transfiguration happened before the crucifixion was to manifest something of Christ's glory to the disciples so that they would not completely lose it, basically, out of the passion and would be able to endure through to the resurrection. So it was due to his tenderness and lovingness, you know, that he would do this for our sake, not for his. I mean, everything Christ did was for our sake. But that's beautiful when

you think of it like that. You know, in order to strengthen you, weak as you are, I'll reveal my glory to you. Yeah, exactly. So how does Aquinas, you know, if you want to look at this text, 45.1. Yeah, I'm looking at it now. Yeah, so Aquinas writes, 45.1. Yeah, I'm looking at it now. Yeah, so Aquinas writes, our Lord, after foretelling his passion to his disciples, had exhorted them to follow the path of his sufferings. So Jesus tells them that it's going to happen, and then Aquinas continues, now in order that anyone goes straight along the road, he must have some knowledge of the end. An archer will not shoot the arrow straight unless he first sees the target. So what is Aquinas emphasizing here? The disciples needed to know where the passion was going to be taking them. And that's what the transfiguration is going to reveal. It's going to reveal the glory

that is waiting for Christ after the passion. And that means also the glory that is waiting for us after we pass through suffering and death. So it's to strengthen us to walk with Christ on the way of the cross. Yeah, it's interesting that this comes directly after or directly before Matthew 17. It's sort of situated in Christ telling us about his passion. So this is the context in which the transfiguration occurs, right? He's telling us about his passion, and then he reveals his glory to strengthen the disciples. Exactly.

And that's given to us by Pope St. Leo the Great in the 5th century AD. So this is going back a long ways before Aquinas, but it's also a major feature of John Chrysostom's interpretation. So Chrysostom and Leo the Great are, you know, basically together on this point. So Aquinas is giving you like the greatest hits of the church fathers here. Now, when Christ was transfigured, it looks like the first objection here is that he somehow changed substantially into something else. That isn't what happened at the Transfiguration. What actually happened at the Transfiguration? Yeah, okay, well, this is a very disputed question in the Middle Ages and even subsequently,

because the question is, okay, is somehow the, like, are we directly seeing the divinity of Christ? Is that what's happening? Is it that Christ's body is glorified? Did he have a glorified body, like from the beginning of his earthly life? This actually was an opinion that was current in the Middle Ages. There were some theologians, Aquinas disagrees with them, but they thought that Jesus had a glorified body from the beginning, and then it's like a miracle that he was able to suffer. But Aquinas does not buy that. I mean, I think it's a very good sense that St. Thomas has about this, which is, you know, no, Jesus had a human body like ours. Of course, it wasn't touched by sin. So that's a very important difference.

But it was susceptible to suffering. And a glorified body is not susceptible to suffering. Like your glorified body in heaven, God willing, you know, Matt, when you get it back on the last day is going to be perfect. And it's going to be, you know, you're not going to have any more sickness, you're not going to get a cold, and you're not going to be able to die. So you'll have a body, but it will be glorious and therefore not subject to suffering. So the question is, did Jesus always have a body like that, and then somehow he just like made an exception for the passion? Aquinas says no. His his body was always in his earthly life. His body was a normal human body.

He was not yet glorified. So what's being what's happening here in the in the transfiguration? It's not that his body all of a sudden was glorified, but that the glory of his soul in, you know, so his soul, which is always most closely united to God. So he has a human soul. He has a human mind. He has a human will. He also has a divine nature, a divine mind, a divine will. So in Christ, two natures, divine and human, and therefore two intellects, divine and human, two wills, divine and human, and they're

most closely united. So in his soul, Christ was always perfectly united to God, but his body was not glorified, did not have the same glory as the highest part of his soul. So Aquinas thinks that in the transfiguration, Jesus is kind of unveiling to us what's actually happening in his soul all the time. Wow. Yeah, that's fantastic. And what's the significance of having Elijah and Moses with him on the mount? Well, that's also very interesting. And Aquinas doesn't, let's see, does he actually talk about this here in Article 1? Not that I can see.

I don't think he talks about it in article one. Let me just... I've heard a couple of explanations given. One being that Moses and Elijah represented the prophets and the what? Exactly. Yeah. It's the law and the prophets. The law and the prophets is what I meant. Yeah. So Moses is the law. But then I've also heard someone say that both Moses and Elijah received a revelation on a mountaintop. Yes, exactly. And you know what? Aquinas talks about this in Article 3. This is Question 45, Article 3, where he asks whether the witnesses of the transfiguration were fittingly chosen.

So you have the apostles, Peter, James, and John john and then you have moses and elijah so maybe we should take you want to take a look at that yes yeah didn't mean to derail us there i was just uh i was just thinking this is a question that a lot of people have so sure you look at the uh let's see the respondio christ wished to be transfigured in order to show men his glory and to arouse men to a desire of it, as stated above. Now, men are brought to the glory of eternal beatitude by Christ, not only those who lived after him, but also those who preceded him. Therefore, when he was approaching his passion, both the multitude that followed and that which went before cried, saying, Hosanna, as related Matthew 21, 9, beseeching him, as it were, to save them. Yeah, isn't that cool? The mouth of two or three witnesses. Isn't that cool? The mouth of two or three witnesses. It's like a great, you know, quotation from from Scripture itself, from the law, you know, about what you need to prove your case.

So he has two witnesses from the Old Testament and then three witnesses who will be his witnesses in the New Testament. Interesting. Yeah. But also, of course, you have the idea of the the law and prophets. That shows up in his reply to the third objection. And, you know, you notice there he's quoting John Chrysostom again. So, I mean, Chrysostom keeps showing up. He really likes John Chrysostom. But also here he's quoting St. Jerome, St. Augustine. So you get a lot of the church fathers, St. Hilary of Poitiers, you get a lot of the church fathers in this part of the Summa. And that's because, you know, Aquinas, he's doing his research. I mean, actually, this is also something that we might not realize.

Aquinas was a huge pioneer in the 13th century of research, like academic research, going into the libraries, going into the archives, and trying to find these texts of the church fathers. That was not commonly done by other university professors of his age. Aquinas did it like 10 times more than others. There's been some really interesting research on this. And he had a whole workshop by which he would collect these quotations and assemble them and organize them. So we know, for example, I learned this at an academic conference I went to recently on where there was a presentation on Aquinas' practices for gathering scripture quotations. You know, in the Middle Ages, they – I hope that we're not getting too far off the topic here. No, this is fascinating. You know, in the middle ages, they, I hope that we're not getting too far off the topic. This is fascinating. You know, in the middle ages, how did they make books? Well, they, they, you know, obviously the printing press wasn't invented yet. So all the books were handwritten and they were handwritten on normally on like vellum, which is like sheepskin.

So books were enormously expensive because think about how many sheep it takes to make like a big, a big book. Um, you actually had to kill a sheep, um, in order to, in order to make the book. Okay. So, um, they, when they made the books, they would cut, you know, cut the edges to make them square, obviously, which means you'd have little scraps of vellum that would fall onto the floor and they would sweep them up and then they would take them to Thomas Aquinas and he used them as like his three by five cards. Oh my goodness. That's incredible. So he would write down these little scripture quotations or not scripture quotations, uh, quotations from the church fathers that he would want to use in

like this part of the Summa. And he would then organize them just like, I mean, imagine the way people did. Uh, I mean, if you've, if you've talked to, to, you know, people who wrote term papers before the age of the computer, and they would use three by five cards to organize their quotations, you know, and then they just put them in the order they're going to use them in their paper. That's basically what Aquinas did. That's fascinating. You know, it's interesting here, the reason we are often given why Elijah and Moses were with Christ on the mountaintop is that they signify the law and the prophets. In reply to objection three, Aquinas gives six reasons why Moses and Elijah were with Christ. And it's only the sixth reason that he gives, which is that, you know, law and the prophets.

But there's five other reasons that he gives why it was fitting that those two should be with him. Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, so it's incredibly rich when you start asking what's the meaning of this. And, you know, if there are any priests out there who are thinking about, like, their next homily on the Transfiguration, you know, like, this is incredibly rich material. You can take, like, two of these reasons, and you've got yourself a homily. Totally. Look at this one.

Here's one of the reasons. He says, therefore, by appearing together with Christ, they show how falsely the Jews accused him of transgressing the law and blasphemously appropriating to himself the glory of God. Yeah. So, you know, it's like a rebuke. Yeah, right. It's a remedy precisely to views of Jesus that separate him from the Old Testament.

You know, that's always been a temptation of some readers of the New Testament is to see to say something like, oh, you know, the God of the Old Testament is the God of strict justice and punishment and vengeance. And, you know, he's vindictive. But the God of the New Testament is the God of mercy and love. And so, you know, you end up kind of creating this dichotomy and thinking that the Old Testament is basically bad news and you need the New Testament to give you the good news. But, of course, that's completely unchristian. The Christian tradition has rejected that from the very beginning. There's a famous heretic named Marcion who held that view. And Aquinas is absolutely standing in that same line of interpretation. You read the New Testament in light of the Old Testament, and it's one revelation of God that is coming to us in these two covenants, and Jesus is the fulfillment of the old covenant.

What's your soundbite response to somebody who makes that claim, though, Father, who says to you, in the Old Testament, God was bloodthirsty. In the New Testament, he seems like a peace-loving hippie. What's your sort of soundbite response to that if someone throws that at you on campus or something? Well, I mean, number one, it's like overly simplistic. You can just, it doesn't take that much difficulty. You can do it with Google very quickly to try and find a few passages in the Old Testament where God is talking, where it's mercy and love, you know? And it's also very easy to find in the New Testament some pretty tough sayings of Jesus. Millstones come to mind. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, when you get the real revelation there and you take the Word of God in all its integrity and in a kind of full way,

you realize this is a mystery that we have to, like, struggle with to try and understand. Like, we can understand vindictive or, you know, stern justice, and then we set on the other side, you know, oh, well, you know, mercy. And actually, God is the author of both of them, and he is both. You know, so he is both a just judge and a merciful father. And he's, in a way, speaking to us in both of these idioms, because we're supposed to be moving towards this mystery of God, which is above the categories that we have come up with. Yeah, fantastic. All right, where do you want to go now? Do you want to go back to the second

question there? Yeah, let's go back to Article 2. Second article, I mean, yeah. Article 2 of Question 45 is about basically how this transfiguration happened. And that's a point where there's been a lot of debate. So it might not be, you know, somebody might read this article and be like, oh, this seems like it's kind of getting into the weeds. It's not really that interesting. What kind of glory did Jesus have? But here's one of the really interesting issues. Do we see, or did the apostles see, interesting issues. Do we see, or did the apostles see, the divine essence when they saw the transfiguration? You'll sometimes hear homilists say things like this, you know, like, oh, they saw his divinity. Yeah, that's right. I've heard people say that, yeah. And actually, this is the

interpretation of Gregory Palamas, who was the, you know, he's one of the great figures in the Orthodox theological tradition. So he's after Aquinas. I believe he's 14th century. Often pitted against Aquinas in some respects, I believe, in regards to energy. Well, that's right. I mean, he is a very anti-scholastic figure and a very polemical figure. and a very polemical figure. So he, you know, if you think of the kind of image that some, you know, you have of some Orthodox church fathers, you know, like, I don't know,

you've probably seen the thing about St. Nicholas, you know, that he punched Arius in the nose for being a heretic. I hope that's true, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of combative. Yes. Theologian, you know, ready to get in a fight. So Gregory Palamas is sort of that type of figure.

You know, he's very combative. Now, maybe you could describe Aquinas that way, too, because obviously he's very ready to get in an argument. I mean, his summa is nothing but that. You know, it's like a series of arguments. But anyway, Gregory Palamas is a little more rhetorical than Aquinas. And he was really strong on this claim that you have to claim that you see the divinity. You see that, well, actually, the way he technically puts it is you see the divine light in the, or the disciples saw the divine light in the transfiguration. And that is

what Aquinas would dispute, because for Aquinas, it wouldn't be possible to see the divine light in itself, because what the transfiguration is describing is a vision with the physical eyes of the disciples. So our physical eyes are not capable of seeing that divine light. Oh, I see. Interesting. But wouldn't you say it's possible, though, just like in heaven, we need God's grace to strengthen our minds to, quote unquote, see the beatific vision? Couldn't it technically be the case that that's what happened on the mountain? Well, so that's a good question. You know, is what's happening like a momentary transportation, you know, kind of elevation? I mean, I think we would call it like a rapture of the disciples into some kind of heavenly realm where they're able to see

according to the divine light. I mean, for Aquinas, if you were to see with a divine light, if you were to see, what would you be seeing? You'd be seeing the divine essence, and it would be like effectively the beatific vision. But I mean, Aquinas is, what is he doing? He's interpreting scripture here. And so he's trying to stay close to the scriptural witness. And I think the scriptural witness doesn't suggest that same kind of thing. It suggests rather that they had a kind of, yes, okay, it was an overwhelming vision, but it was a vision of the figure of Christ. Beautiful. I love it. I love both that Aquinas stays close to the fathers, but close to the Bible.

Because we can be tended to speculate, can't we? I just did it then. Well, wouldn't it be possible? And the question you rightly put is, it's not whether it's possible, it's what does the Holy Scriptures say? And that's what Aquinas is interested in. Yeah, that's right. And, you know, he's very careful to stay very close to that. And, you know, what's interesting is that, in fact, in giving this interpretation, that they saw something with their bodily eyes. And so they saw a visible light. You know, it's not an invisible light of the divine nature is actually light.

So what they were seeing was a dimension of the incarnation. And I think that's that's an important point. Like what they're seeing is not the divinity. What they are seeing, rather, is the glory of Christ's humanity. And they're seeing mediated through his body, his physical body, and even his clothing. They're seeing something of the refulgence of his human soul. And that's now why is this important? because if the purpose of the transfiguration is to strengthen them for the passion so that they will see the glory of the resurrection to come, then the resurrection, of course, that pertains

not to Christ's divine nature, it pertains to his human nature and to his human body. So they need to see something about his human body. And it has to be connected to this mystery of the incarnation, which is precisely the becoming flesh of the divine word, like the word becomes flesh and dwells among us, as St. John's Gospel says. So that's the key element here. And so Aquinas is staying very, very close to that when he says, no, no, no, don't go to the divinity yet. Stick with the humanity for a minute, because there's a lot more there than you think.

And when you get into that, that's what this article, Article 2, is about. Could I perhaps read the respondio and stop every sentence or so and have you maybe... Yeah, sure. Would that be worthwhile, do you think? Yeah. The clarity with which Christ assumed in his transfiguration was the clarity of glory as to its essence, but not as to its mode of being. What does that mean? but not as to its mode of being.

What does that mean? So it's the glory with respect to its essence, but not as to its mode of being. Okay, so what he's trying to say is, is it the clarity of glory? Maybe we just have to clarify what he's talking about there. So the Latin term there is claritas, and that's really, in Latin, that word just really means like brightness. So clarity is a little of an archaic English word to use for it.

I would say it's more like the brightness or the splendor. Splendor is probably a better way to put it. So what was the splendor that was shown there? Is it the splendor of glory or of a glorified body as to its essence? He's saying, no, the essence of it here is not the glorified body of Christ. But what you're getting is a kind of mode by which the body of Christ is in a momentary way made visibly splendid, bright, glorious. Okay. Okay, so for the clarity or for the splendor of the glorified body is derived from that of the soul, as Augustine says.

And in like manner, the splendor of Christ's body in his transfiguration was delivered from his God. From his God. There's a period there. From his Godhead, as Damascene says, and from the glory of his soul. Yes. Okay. This is an awesome sentence. I mean, absolutely an awesome sentence.

I can't wait to find out why. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay. So let's break this down. First, he cites St. Augustine, right? What is he citing Augustine for? It's for the principle that a glorified body is glorious because of the splendor of its soul or the glory of its soul, right?

Okay. So that is a very important point in Aquinas. Why? Because Aquinas says that the soul is the form of the body and the principle of life and unity of the body. OK, so that's that's like a very important point that of Aquinas, his own anthropology. And he's he's like inserting that into the argument here and making it a part of like he's quoting Augustine for it. But then he cites John Damascene in like the very next sentence, right? On a point that seems to go in exactly the opposite direction. Because there, Damascene is

talking about the splendor derived not from Christ's soul, right? That's not what Damascene's, so he quotes Damascene, the splendor of the body of Christ in the transfiguration was derived from his divinity, as Damascene says. Okay, wait a second. Augustine just said it was from his soul. Now Damascene is saying it's from his divinity. Well, which is it? And so why, it's fascinating. Why is Aquinas putting those two like right in a row and right next to each other?

And he's not putting them in there as if they were contrary to each other. He's putting them in there as if it was kind of obvious that they were harmonious. And so then I think you get the key here just after the quotation from John Damascene, where he says, so it is derived from the glory of his Godhead and, now Aquinas is adding this to Damascene's quotation, and from the glory of his soul. So in other words, Aquinas sees the glory of Christ's soul as deriving its glory from the divinity. And so it goes like this. You've got divinity, the glory of the divinity entering into the soul, that's the highest part of Christ's humanity, and from there then flowing down into the body. So Augustine was talking about the soul, Damascene was talking about the divinity, and Aquinas saying, hey, it's no problem, we can put those together because they're ordered in this way.

Okay, fantastic. But neither Augustine nor Damascene said that. You know, so this is like Aquinas giving you the synthesis. Yeah. That the glory of his soul did not overflow into his body from the first moment of Christ's conception was due to a certain divine dispensation that, as stated above, he might fulfill the mysteries of our redemption in a passable body. That's right. So what is he saying? Okay, Christ's soul was glorious from the first moment of its conception. That means that it was perfectly united to God. So he has the beatific vision in his human mind, like he sees the Father with his human mind.

And his will is perfectly united to the Father, perfectly united to his divine will. So he has a human will and it's perfectly united to the divine will from the beginning. So in his human soul, that is always glorious. But because he needed to live in a human body that is susceptible to suffering. Which is what passable means, right? Exactly. Especially so that he could go to the cross and redeem us. It would have been a bad thing if that glory had already like entered

into his body so that he was not capable of suffering. So Aquinas' point is that we want to hold on to two things. On the upper end, Christ's soul is perfectly united to God, and it's glorious in his mind. On the lower side, his body, that is not yet glorified, and so it's capable of being hungry, it's capable of suffering injuries, and it's capable of being killed, which is obviously what happens in the cross. He continues, by way of a permanent quality affecting the body. Hence, bodily refulgence is not miraculous in a glorified body, but in Christ's transfiguration, clarity overflowed from his Godhead and from his soul into his body,

not as an imminent quality affecting his very body, but rather after the manner of a transient passion, as when the air is lit up by the sun. Consequently, the refulgence which appeared in Christ's body then was miraculous, just as was the fact of his walking on the waves of the sea. Hence Dionysius says, Christ excelled men in doing that which is proper to man. This is shown in his supernatural conception of a virgin and in the unstable waters bearing the weight of material and earthly feet.

Yeah, so that's a great long quotation. What is the point of Aquinas' statements there? What he's trying to say is that a glorified body has the stable, permanent, you know, characteristic of being glorified. It's not something temporary. It's like the, the, what it really is. And so it's always going to remain that it's not going to be capable of suffering. And Aquinas also thinks that the glorified body just goes wherever the soul wants it to go. So like it's possible to fly. Um, actually he sort of says that, that the, that if Christ's at the, at Christ's ascension, if, when Jesus wants to go up into the clouds, like that's where his soul wants to go. So that's where his body goes. Um, uh, which poses an interesting question. Like, will we be able to fly in heaven? Um, yeah, the answer to that might

be, might be, yes. I don't know. That's, I don't. I don't know. I'm not willing to go to the wall on that. But what he's saying is that in the transfiguration, you just see a temporary thing, and it's like the sun illuminating the air becomes darker, and that's because there's something blocking the rays of the sun. So it's just that the air is just like receiving the light. It doesn't like have the light of itself, and that's the distinction that he wants to make here. Christ's body at the transfiguration is like in a momentary way, it's becoming like the lamp that is illuminating the glory of his soul, that is illuminating the glory of his soul, but it doesn't have that quality as its own feature. Okay. And then he concludes saying,

Wherefore we must not say, as Hugh of St. Victor said, that Christ assumed the gift of clarity in the transfiguration, of agility in walking on the sea, and of subtlety in coming forth from the virgin's closed womb, because the gifts are imminent qualities of a glorified body. On the contrary, whatever pertained to the gifts that he had miraculously, that he had miraculously. The same is to be said as to the soul of the vision in which Paul saw God in a rapture, as we have stated above.

Yeah, so Hugh of St. Victor, that's a famous medieval theologian who was before Aquinas' time. And so this would be like one of the big names that Aquinas as a teacher in the university needs to like take account of his position. Hugh of St. Victor thought that Jesus had a glorified body from the beginning of his life. So then walking on water was not a miracle, according to Hugh of St. Victor, because the glorified body can do that. Gotcha. And passing through the virgin's womb, like the miraculous birth of Christ, you know, the church fathers speak about it as like not, like she's a virgin. Right, after the birth, too.

So he passed before, during, and after the birth of Christ. And so the idea is that there is no damage to her body. It remains absolutely intact. And that Christ passes through her like light through a glass. That's one of the famous formulations. So that would be, you know, so you could ask, well, is it because Christ has a glorified body that he can like pass through, like pass through the doors after the resurrection, even though they're closed and locked? And Hugh of St. Victor is saying, yeah, basically Christ's body was always like that. Aquinas disagrees.

He says, no, those were miracles. Like it's a miracle that Christ was born in this way. So we want to say his birth was, properly speaking, miraculous. And it was a miracle that he walked on the water. And it's not just because he had a glorified body. And what is Aquinas' motivation here? He's concerned to value in full the humanity of Christ and the fact that he has a real human body that is capable of suffering, that it grows, he gets hungry, he gets tired, he weeps, and he suffers. Okay, so what have we learned so far? I mean, I think one of the primary

reasons we can say the Transfiguration happened was to strengthen the disciples for what was to come, to kind of give them a taste of what was to come. And then what do we say happened at the Transfiguration if we're not going to say they saw his divinity? That's not something we want to say then, is that right? That's right. According to Aquinas, what we want to say is that it shows us the future glory of the resurrection in a very temporary way. Jesus sort of allows the glory of his soul to radiate through his body. And therefore, what you're seeing is real visible light, is visible light that is coming from Christ's body. So that's wonderful and miraculous. It's really seen by the eyes of the disciples. And so they're perceiving the promised glory of his resurrection.

Okay. Yeah, this is fascinating. So it's not just like a rapture or a vision such that if somebody else was there, they may not have seen what the disciples seen. This was actually a natural phenomenon that happened supernaturally. I know that, but I mean, you're saying it radiated through his physical body. That's right. So it's about the incarnation, and it's about Christ's humanity. I think that's the big difference between, say, St. Thomas Aquinas and Gregory Palamas.

Palamas wants to make it a kind of manifestation of the divinity in itself so that it becomes the icon for the mystical life. Now, that's kind of a beautiful thought, but Aquinas is much more concrete and concerned with the truth of the gospel witness that, you know, okay, the disciples saw this. It was a man, you know, the man Jesus, who is also, of course, the Son of God, is standing in front of them and becomes glorious, and it's really his body that becomes glorious. Yeah, he seems to directly respond to that in the reply to the first objection, I think. He says, the words quoted prove not that the clarity of Christ was not that of glory, but that it was not the clarity of a glorified body since Christ's body was not yet immortal. And just as it was by dispensation that in Christ the glory of the soul should not overflow into the body,

so is it possible that by dispensation it might overflow as to the gift of clarity and not as to the gift of impassibility. That's right. Okay, wow, fantastic. What else should we look at before we begin to wrap up? Well, maybe we could take just a quick look at Article 4. Yeah. So that's the last article in this question.

Whether the testimony of the Father's voice saying, this is my beloved Son, was fittingly added. Yeah, so basically there's two things that Aquinas wants to say about the words of the Father here. I mean, so famous, you know, important truth about the Transfiguration, it's a manifestation of the Trinity. And now that doesn't come through extremely clearly in this Summa text, but it does come through very clearly when Aquinas talks about this in his Gospel commentaries, like both John and Matthew, and also in a number of other places in his sentences

commentary, for example, he brings this up. So what does Aquinas say there? He says that you see the, or we have a revelation of the Father, that's the voice from heaven. It's the revelation of the Son. Well, obviously, Jesus is being revealed as the divine Son in that moment. And that's what the father's voice is saying. And also a revelation of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is present in the luminous cloud that descends on them. So Aquinas thinks that this is one of the visible missions of the Holy Spirit, the transfiguration. Now, that's actually very interesting. This is a little-known fact. Many of the church fathers will talk about the visible mission of the Holy Spirit at Christ's baptism, right? Because at the baptism,

you have the dove descending on him. So obviously, the Holy Spirit descending on him in the form of a dove. And then where else do we find visible missions of the Holy Spirit? Well, the tongues of fire at Pentecost. So that's obvious. So we've got at least two there. It's also typical to see this in Christ's breath at the evening of the resurrection when he breathes on the disciples in the upper room and says, receive the Holy Spirit. Okay, so now we got three. Aquinas thinks there are four visible missions of the Holy Spirit, and he's unique in holding that. And the fourth is the transfiguration, where you have the Holy Spirit represented by the cloud. But there's another very important reason why Aquinas connects it, and it has to do with the voice that comes from heaven. Because if you remember, what does the voice say at the baptism

of Christ? This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Exactly. Okay, what does the voice say at the baptism of Christ? This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Exactly. Okay, what does it say at the Transfiguration? The Transfiguration, he says, this is my Son whom I love. With him I am well pleased. And then he adds, which is different from the baptism, listen to him. Exactly. Okay, so listen to him.

So that's interesting. We have now Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are present at the baptism. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are present, like manifested also in the transfiguration, according to Aquinas. And what is different between them? Okay, so the baptism is about the manifestation of Christ's institution of the sacraments, because there we have the sanctification of the waters in baptism. And then in the transfiguration, it's for the sake of teaching. So listen to him. It's kind of a testament to the authority of Christ, the teacher.

And then Aquinas sees this having a parallel with the apostles. So when Jesus appears the night of the resurrection, he breathes the Holy Spirit on the apostles, and he does that, why? For the forgiveness of sins, right? So that's the sacrament of confession instituted right there. So now, once again, you have visible mission of the Holy Spirit for sacraments, like at the baptism of Christ. And then at Pentecost, what did the tongues of fire allow the disciples to do? To teach, to teach in all languages, right? So it's now manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the teaching of the church.

And Aquinas thinks that these are the two kind of core aspects of Christ's own visible mission. His own life is that he is instituting sacraments and working miracles, and then he is teaching. He is instituting sacraments and working miracles, and then he is teaching. Likewise, in the church, the life of the church after Christ ascends, you have the sacraments and teaching. And both of these require the Holy Spirit's presence. Fascinating stuff. I'm sure I'm not the first to point out also that it does sound like the Blessed Mother in John chapter 2. Do whatever he tells you. Listen to him. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, nice'm sure I'm not the first to point out also that it does sound like the Blessed Mother in John chapter 2. Do whatever He tells you.

Listen to Him. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, nice connection there. But I don't know that we have the Holy Spirit popping up in that moment. Okay, well, this is great. So for those who are listening, I guess the two places we would point people to would be the Tertia Paz question 45. There's four articles there, and there seems to be a lot of nuggets of gold in the objections and responses, which we haven't really begun to scratch. And then secondly would be the commentary of Matthew's Gospel, chapter 17.

People could check that out. Exactly. I'm not sure if that's fully out online. I know they have some of the commentary online. Yeah, it's a little harder to find, but it's worth it if you can get your hands on it. All right, well, as we wrap up, let's think of how this is applicable to our spiritual life then. I like to try and draw this connection between what we're seeing in Scripture to how we relate to the Father and how we walk the Christian walk. What would you say? Well, I think it's important, first of all, because we're supposed to be

adopted sons and daughters of God. And so that means being configured to Christ. So the transfiguration is there to strengthen us for seeing Him go to the cross, but also to understand that this is our destiny too, just as he manifests himself in glory. So we too are supposed to one day be configured to his glory. That's the promise of the resurrection. And that resurrected glory will come for us after death, you know, so we are going to have to pass through suffering and death. And unfortunately, you know, none of us, none of us can get out of that. You know, that's, that's just a part of human life. After the fall, it's an inevitable dimension of my future, your future, the future of each person who's listening to this. And, you know, it's not something we maybe always want to think about. But of course, there are going to be times, you know, just imagine when you get a very,

you know, upsetting phone call from someone who's close to you telling you that someone you love is in the hospital or has been in a car accident or might, you know, maybe has had a heart attack or a stroke or something and is in the hospital, you know, and maybe approaching death. How do you respond in those moments? Well, you know, we can, of course, be sorrowful. That's a normal reaction and a natural reaction. But also to, you know, this is just classic Catholic teaching. We unite our sufferings to Christ on the cross, and we offer up our sufferings in union with Christ on the cross. So since all of us have suffering and death in our future, it's good to think about and to prepare ourselves spiritually for the moment when that arrives, so that we will be able to say, okay,

Lord, I am handing my life over to you. I'm willingly walking the way of the cross in my own life, in union with you, in hope of the future glory of the resurrection. So I'm trusting in you to save me from death, to take me through death and bring me out on the other side with the gift of eternal life. And earlier we were talking about sometimes people make this connection of wanting to stay on that mountaintop. And learning what we have from you in this episode, that what the disciples experienced on the mountaintop paled in comparison to the beatific vision, right? That's right. They would have been selling themselves short. They wanted to camp at this beautiful, no doubt, experience of the love of God and the beauty of Christ. But had they have done that without going through the suffering and what was expected of them and

called of them, they wouldn't have, you know, had the beatific vision. I think sometimes we can be like that. We can experience something beautiful in prayer or some mountaintop experience, but there is much more that awaits us at the end if we would be faithful to Christ. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it's always important for us to raise our minds to God and to recognize that everything in this life, including the religious consolations that, you know, may be wonderful gifts that God gives to us, these are far less than God himself. And so there's nothing this side of, you know, the universe, this side of creation that is going to be equal to what is promised to us. Lovely. All right. Heavenly Father, I guess a good prayer would be help us to love you for who you

are and not for just what you can give us. Exactly. Thank you so much. And I want to point everyone again to Aquinas101.com. People should enroll immediately today. I would love it if when this episode goes live, you get another thousand or two subscribers. I think I'm going to be subscribing immediately after this. I don't know why I haven't done it already, and I'm really pumped to learn from you all. So thanks so much for taking the time.

That'd be awesome, Matt. Sharing your wisdom with us. Hey, great to be on. All right. Keep up the good work. Thank you, Father. Bye. Take care.

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