Pints With Aquinas - 184: The Art of Accompaniment, with Fr. Chris Pietraszko

Episode Date: December 17, 2019

Today I chat with Fr. Chris Pietraszko about the art of accompaniment.  Enjoy! SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. Today, we are joined around the bar table by Father Chris Prochaszko to discuss accompaniment and why Aquinas is actually quite good at accompanying people and the pitfalls surrounding it. That's what we're going to be talking about. It's a really interesting and practical discussion, especially if you want to take our Lord's command to evangelize seriously. So, there you go. Here we go. Good then. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Today, we're joined around the bar table by Father Chris Prochaszko to discuss accompaniment. That's right. Pope Francis has spoken a lot about

it. How should we understand it? What does Thomas Aquinas have to say about it? Why is it necessary? How can it get into murky territory? All that sort of stuff is coming up. I want to let you know we are doing a ton of work for you over here at Pints with Aquinas and the Matt Fradd Show and other things that are going on. If you want to start supporting us so that we can continue doing it and make it better, go to patreon.com slash mattfradd. When you become a patron, you'll get immediate access to all sorts of free videos. Like, for example, post-show wrap-up videos. We just did one with Jason Everett. That was super fun. We've done one with Peter Kreeft where he told a bunch of inappropriate jokes. I don't think they're inappropriate. You might. But just really

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and support the show. All right, here's my chat with Fr. Chris Pachosko. Fr. Chris Pachosko, good to have you back on Pints with Aquinas. Hey, Matt. Great to be here. Yes. Now, you just had a move of parish recently. Is that right?

That's right, yeah. What's that like for a priest? You know what? Okay, so I've been ordained for almost eight years in April. And for the first seven years, I've been living in the Windsor region near Detroit. And I've just kind of popped from parish to parish there. So I never really had to leave a community that, like, I could always visit the people that I had met, the friendships that I had developed. So the bishop recently moved me to Stratford, which is about, it's a three hour

drive away. So it's a lot further. And that's been an interesting transition. It just kind of felt uprooted and, but it's part of the priesthood it's not something that i'm complaining about but it's it's it's a real experience of detachment from relationships and even um kind of feeling like when i was there i had some momentum in ministry there was a real good um kind of team that was put together for discipleship and evangelization, and then having to leave that into the hands of someone else, most spiritually speaking, God. It's challenging. Do you sometimes feel like a foster parent? You know, these children are entrusted to you for a time, and then you've got to leave and give them to somebody else. Is that hard?

It's hard for everyone. Unless people hate me. Then it's easy for them. Then they're like, yay. But no, there's a real sense, I think, that people have to be detached from their priests and priests have to be detached from their people. It's kind of like that advice, you know, if you're in dating, you run towards God and you look to the left and right and see whoever's running with you. There's that real sense that it's not about the priest, it's not about the programs, it's not about the, it's about being faithful to God. And that's really giving, the priest moving, I think, is a healthy thing. But I think it's a challenging one. a healthy thing, but I think it's a challenging one.

This is a bit of a tangent, but we recently had a deacon in our parish die, Father Deacon Michael. Beautiful man. We call him Father Deacon in the East, if you don't know that. Really good, holy guy, loved him a great deal. But you know, it occurred to me the other day, and I don't mean this in any way to be disrespectful towards Father Deacon Michaelael but life moves on in other words like we can sometimes fall into the trap of thinking that if we weren't here who knows what would happen but you know what like we're okay we're fine as a parish and i don't i don't mean that in any

way to disrespectful to him he's a terrific guy, and he was such a pillar in the parish. But if I am, and he probably, unlike me, is tempted sometimes to think that, look at me, what would people be able to do without Pints with Aquinas? And I don't think that, hopefully. But the fact is, if I died tomorrow and Pints with Aquinas stopped coming out every Tuesday, people would be just fine. Now, that's not to undervalue my work. I think the good Lord does use it for the growth of others, but it's helpful, I think, to take a step back and realize that. What do you think? I 100% agree. I just was remembering a phrase, and I can't quite

state it the right way, but it was something to do with the irreplaceables of yesterday are in tomorrow's cemetery. Oh, that's good. of yesterday are in tomorrow's cemetery. Oh, that's good. And it's very humbling to recognize that we may not reap what we sow, right? That we're just here to play a part in God's mission and not to develop this kind of cult of personality where people are developing like almost like a fan kind of popularity contest with people and even I think even in the process of evangelization there's a need to emphasize that programs and people are not what the gospel rely on. It is the faithfulness of God, first and foremost, and our cooperation as a church. And it's just letting go and being detached of our own kind

of culture and our own maybe self and the others that we follow is so crucial to that. And it's very painful sometimes to learn that process. Yeah. I mean, I know sometimes I'll see certain people doing evangelization and it seems to me like they have a shtick, that they're playing a little too hard. But then, of course, you can't judge anyone's intentions, of course, because you can't see their heart. But I think it's important for all of us to take a step back and look at ourselves and say, like, is this becoming a cult of personality kind of thing?

Like, how do I know when I'm falling into that, Father Chris? All right. I just want to take a moment here to say a huge thanks to Halo for sponsoring this episode. Halo is an app you need to know about it if you are somebody who wants to take your prayer life to the next level. There are a lot of apps out there today like Calm and Headspace, which are really well-developed,

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So how do you take advantage of this? Do me a favor. Go to hallo.app. That's H-A-L-L-O-W dot A-P-P slash Matt Fradd. hallo.app slash Matt Fradd. Do it right now and create your account online before downloading the app. And you'll get access to all of it. It's really terrific stuff. You can allow the app to lead you through, say,

a 10- or 15-minute Lectio Divina prayer session. It has lovely meditations to help you go to sleep, examination of conscience. It'll help you pray the rosary. And again, 100% Catholic and really, really, really well produced. So please help them out, or help me out, I guess, so they'll keep paying me to do this. ha.app slash Matt Fradd. Hello.app slash Matt Fradd. I think usually one of the common things that comes up is envy.

Ah, that's a really good point. Like if you're seeing the success of another person or apostolate in the evangelization efforts and you feel envy, you're saying that would be a sign. If our motivation is solely dedicated to the proclamation of the gospel and to be faithful to God and give him glory and for the service of our neighbor, then if we see someone succeeding and even replacing us in that task and doing an even better job, their joy will be our joy because we have the same mission. But if we're in a situation like where Saul and King David's praises are being sung and it's become all about us, then we'll go into the spiritual madness of envy. And that's when we realize that maybe we become attached to a method or

ourselves and our own edification rather than the actual mission we began. Yeah, that's a really good point. I know I've fallen into that in the past. Sometimes I'll see someone kind of in what I would consider my lane doing something better than me. And I feel a sort of twinge of sadness, you know, like this desire for me to be able to do better instead of them. Now that's embarrassing to admit. I admit it only because I'm a sinner and I imagine I'm speaking to sinners who can relate. And I think sometimes the temptation when we see something ugly within us is just not to look at it. But I think what we need to do is to look at it with the grace and friendship of Christ so that we can then give it over to Him.

Yeah, and I think there's ways to combat that, which is we can begin to be detached from our own work or maybe sing the praises of those other people that we're encompassing with. I always remember, I think it's an actual particular trap for priests i think it's a trap for one but i think the devil to be perfectly honest particularly attacks leaders with envy and uh i was i was had the benefit of living with a great priest named father patrick benito in my diocese. And what he would do was, whether it was intentional or not, he would speak well of me behind my back to other people. And he was

always saying what he thought was true. It wasn't flattery. But when I found out about what he was saying about me to other people, it started an awareness within myself of, yeah, that's what it means to be on a team. That's what it means to work well with each other is that we're building each other up. We're not trying to cut each other down. And I think- That's a really good point. Sorry, keep going. No, that's it. Yeah. Well, you know, it's a good point because, you know, we may feel threatened by someone and then think to ourselves, I'll speak highly of them. But even that comes out of an impure motive.

I'll speak highly about them. So you tell me how humble I am to point out, you know, publicly the good in another person. But as you say, one way to combat that would be to speak well about them behind their back. So, you know, like on social media, you say something nice about someone, you tag them in it. I mean, that could be a fine thing to do, but part of that could come from this place of like, see, see, like I'm nice to you, you be nice to me, say nice things about me. But I really like that. Like just, yeah, go, you know, speak. So people, you're listening today, or if I'm experiencing this in my own heart, if I'm experiencing sort of envy with regard to another person, one way to combat that would

almost be to talk about them behind their back in a praiseworthy way. Yeah, yeah. I love it. And it's such a positive way of building up the church, I think. Yeah. Well, today we want to talk about evangelization. Speaking of evangelization and accompaniment and things like this, I'm glad we're doing that. Where do you want to talk about evangelization, speaking of evangelization and accompaniment and things like this. I'm glad we're doing that. Where do you want to begin?

Maybe I'll start with just a little bit of a story. But after, let me just – actually, you know what? I'm going to start with Aquinas because this is Plants with Aquinas. Sure. This is from the second part of the second part in the section on faith. And it's question three, article two. And the question is whether confession of faith is necessary for salvation. Interesting background.

Recently, Pope Paul VI was asked the question whether or not people can be saved outside of the church. was asked the question whether or not people can be saved outside of the church. And knowing at that time it was a bit of a developing question, controversial question, he said, let's instead ask a different question. He said, can Catholics who don't evangelize be saved? And his answer was no. And so I think that this is something that we have to take seriously, irregardless of, or regardless.

Well done. Good catch. Of our different views here. So he says, things that are necessary for salvation come under the precepts of divine law. Now, since confession of faith is something affirmative, it can only fall under an affirmative precept. Hence, it's necessary for salvation depends on how it falls under an affirmative precept of the divine law. Now, affirmative precepts, as stated above, do not bind for always, although they are always binding. bind for always, although they are always binding. But they bind as to place and time according to their due circumstances in respect which human acts have to be regulated in order to be acts

of virtue. So he's basically just saying some basic things here, which is that it kind of depends on the circumstances, but when you're in a situation where you have to do something necessary for salvation, that's always binding. But like, let's say if you're in bed, it might not be directly associated with evangelization at that point. So then it is not necessary for salvation to confess one's faith at all times, in all places, but in certain places and certain times when namely by omitting to do so, we would deprive God of due honor or our neighbor of a service that we ought to render him. For instance, if a man on being asked about his faith were to remain silent as to make people believe either that he is without faith or that the faith is

false or so as to turn others away from the faith for in such cases as these confession of faith is necessary for salvation i love that because i think sometimes when we hear that like you know confession of faith is necessary for salvation we ought to evangelize we can feel a little anxious like well how many people like everybody i see like the mailman you know the woman at the grocery store like the person i bump into and just like i remember i used to go to a gym and i'd occasionally get into the sauna afterwards and there was a man there who like evangelize whoever sat down in there. And it was always really awkward. Like he would like, he'd have this one line and then he'd start talking about Jesus and you knew where it was going. And then it was very pointed.

And I had this one interaction with him. I'm like, okay, that was good for him, you know. But about three months went by and I was back in the sauna and he was there. I didn't recognize him actually, except that he started with that same line and then started evangelizing me again. I thought this just feels super awkward, right? Like sometimes we're in a conversation with somebody and we're morally certain, you know, we can't be absolutely certain, but we're fairly certain that to bring up the faith at this point would not only be sort of unproductive, but counterproductive. So my in-laws are Baptist, for example, where about, you know, if I was to go down there and have dinner with them and bring up the papacy or why they ought to be Catholic, I don't think that would just be unproductive. I think it could be

counterproductive. And I think in those circumstances, you know, prudence may dictate that I not share the faith in the way I was about to. And so, I like how he puts it there. Like, it's like if somebody asks you point blank and you're silent like this this is not okay yeah I oh my gosh there's so much wisdom in what you're saying I and you know I want to go to this story of when I was first ordained and some of the mistakes that I was making I I had gone into the seminary having had an encounter with the Lord so I had gone into the seminary having had an encounter with the Lord. So I had a relationship, a personal, deep, intimate relationship with Christ. And when I say that, I want to emphasize the fact that I'm still not Protestant.

I am allowed to have as a Catholic. It turns out. Jesus. And that's because even though it's not part of our maybe Catholic language or Catholic culture, it is part of our Catholic tradition to have a personal relationship with God. So I had that. And that was a context that I went into the seminary. And then I was catechized deeply. I was taught philosophy.

I was taught theology. And I got very excited about catechism and theology and philosophy. And I had forgotten that the context which allowed that information and content to become fruitful in my life was seated in that relationship. So the throne room had been open to God, and now Christ the truth could sit on that throne in my soul. So when I was ordained, in my head, because I had assumed that context, but not really reflected on that being maybe the initial stage of evangelization, is to have that encounter and relationship with God, I thought that by catechizing everyone, that that was the way

I was going to lead people to faith. And what it left me with was a bitterness when people didn't understand what I was saying or couldn't accept it and a frustration and it also strengthened the people who already believed so there was some fruitfulness to it but in terms of actually generating faith supernaturally in people that might have been on the fringes the catechesis without the relationship and maybe some steps beforehand was not fruitful. And if it was fruitful, it was kind of an exceptional situation. Almost fruitful by accident. Yeah. And that's what I think is we as disciples of our Lord, learning his discipline of creating faith, really need to not be—I think what happens, okay, is when we talk about evangelization, people automatically think, okay, so I have to go and knock on everyone's door like the Jehovah Witnesses.

And it's not to say that, you know, St. Paul Street evangelization can't happen. I actually think those are wonderful things. Me too, yeah. But not everyone might be called to that. And St. Paul Street evangelization might not be able to do the most amount of work if it's not willing to build relationships or connect those people to relationships with other people in the church outside of a program. Because I think really the first step in evangelizing with people is not catechizing, but rather building a bridge of trust with them. And because the way that people open up to truth is if they know it's coming from a person who genuinely cares for them.

And I think that part of that process of evangelization, we have so many good catechetical resources out there. But without maybe an engagement with the people in terms of faith and trust just between human beings. I think it's harder to actually allow that faith unless something unique and extraordinary happens in their life to bring them to that faith. So I think one of the first things that has to happen is an authentic personal relationship with an individual who's on the fringes that might not have faith. That relationship of building trust, maybe going out to coffee with them, getting to know what they're interested in, and not bombarding them with theology and philosophy might be important. Because I think a lot of people don't begin evangelization because that's all they think it is, is just beginning with catechesis. And intuitively, I think our reaction to avoid that is probably pretty good. with doctrinal arguments and syllogisms, you know, maybe they're not even open to that right now.

And where is that seed going to be planted then? In Evangelii Gaudium, Pope Francis talks about the art of accompaniment, and this kind of might be what we're getting to, right? He says, here's two quotationsations the church will have to initiate everyone priests religious and laity into this art of accompaniment which teaches us to remove our sandals before the sacred ground of the other um and in case people are afraid that pope francis is sounding a little whatever they're less interested in the truth and more interested in just sort of like staying with them forever. They shouldn't think that because here, paragraph 170, spiritual accompaniment must lead others ever closer to God.

To accompany them would be counterproductive if it became a sort of therapy supporting their self-absorption and ceased to be a pilgrimage with Christ to the Father. absorption and ceased to be a pilgrimage with Christ to the Father. Yeah, and accompaniment acknowledges something that is very human, which is that we are in process with our relationship with grace. So we don't wake up one morning, unless you're the Virgin Mary, you know, in the womb. We don't become immaculate and perfect, like flicking a switch. With the angels, that might be the case. You know, they're either good or they're purely evil. But with us, there's a process involved.

And in order for us to respect that process, we need to be able to meet people where they are and lead them to somewhere else. That's the second part that sometimes gets left out. But that process of leading them and walking with them is not a violent process. It's a process of love and patience. And I think that there's maybe one error that we can fall into, and it's called the gradualism of the law. And basically, that is when we apply the law to them based on where they are. Versus saying the law is always applied to you. But while you struggle with that, I'm going to walk with you and I'm not going to like belittle you. I'm not going to degrade you. So just as a concrete example, you know, if let's say a Protestant is thinking about becoming

Catholic, the first thing we're not going to do is say, come to Mass and receive the Eucharist. The law of the Church is very clear that the Eucharist is a sacrament of initiation. And so we're not going to include them in that meal yet, because there's a whole process of preparation, maybe the RCIA or some sort of process of conversion that has to happen. And so we apply the law to them, but we don't make them feel excluded because we have this entire context of relationship with them outside of the Mass. We're not just using the Mass, which is primarily for the evangelized, but we're using a whole broader context to show them that we're walking with them. And sometimes I think our lack of creativity as a church is we think that evangelization is just inviting them to mass and with us. And I think there's so much more that we can do other than that, because

we live in a culture which wants to be accepted first and then behave later. And if we invite them to mass where they cannot be totally accepted into that because of good divine law with regards to the teachings on the Eucharist, then we're giving them an experience that might communicate something that's difficult to explain to them at the beginning of a relationship. So bringing them to Bible studies, going out for coffee with them, visiting them at their house, having relationship. So bringing them to Bible studies, going out for coffee with them, visiting them at their house, having, I can't remember what you call it, but I think on your porch. Open porch, yeah.

We had that last night, actually. How'd it go? It was great, yeah. So for those who don't know, we have what we call open porch once a month. We learned this from our friends. It's funny you have to learn something like this, but we learned it from Annie and Kena Hickman, good friends of ours down in Houston who do this weekly.

We basically open up our house every second Sunday of the month to whoever wants to come. The only rule is they have to bring something to share, bottle of wine, dessert, food, something, and we just get together. And the only prayer that we pray is prayer before meals. That's pretty much it. And then actually what we've been doing is as everyone's kind of leaving, there's sometimes a couple of families left in the house. And so we do night prayer. But we feel that like community and developing friendship is like countercultural enough for one evening. We don't want this to turn into a Bible study or a rosary group, as great as those things are. Rather, we want to get together and do life together and look at each other and ask each other how each other is.

And so we've been doing that for a while now. A couple of months ago, we had over 120 people, I think, in our house, including kids. Last night, it was much smaller and more manageable. And so it's definitely a sacrifice. Like, you know what I mean? I woke up this morning, my floorboards feel like they're covered in sand and there's stuff everywhere. But it's just a beautiful thing to kind of be with each other.

That's awesome. So there's something called thresholds of conversion. Are you familiar with those? No. Why don't you say that again? Thresholds of conversion. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think I know what you mean by that, but feel free to explain. It's a resource from the Office of Evangelization and Family Life Ministries. But basically, the first step is to build a bridge of trust. So if you want to kind of know, when do I get to catechesis, this is a really helpful kind of guide just to examine our relationships with others. So the second stage after building a rapport and a relationship with the person is trying to arouse a curiosity. And this is what we might call as a passive beginning to evangelization. So we're trying to get the interior life of that person, their mind, to be engaged in the faith and to develop

their own kind of ownership over it. So just a good example of this. If someone comes up to you and asks you, why do you pray? Instead of saying, well, because it aligns my will to God and I have an intimate relationship with him. And giving a theological answer and then explaining this is what intercessory prayer is. This is what contemplative prayer, med this is what um you know contemplative prayer meditative like that's way too much information um maybe we could just say to them what do you do when life gets hard and what we're doing is we've answered the question but we've thrown it back to them to get them to develop some introspection in regards to their faith. And that's really important. We don't want to take total ownership of that

interior process. We want them to be actively engaged in their own seeking and questions. And so curiosity doesn't mean that there's, you know, like a passion to become Christian or to believe in God. But it's just a little crack of openness that's willing to entertain and try to understand things. And I think that one really important rule is we don't douse a teaspoon of curiosity with a gallon full of information. teaspoon of curiosity with a gallon full of information. Ah, man. Everyone who is a convert to the faith has probably been guilty of doing that. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, the slightest opening. Someone's like, so, like, why are you Catholic? Buckle up. Here we go. The next three hours.

Yeah. Yeah. It's great to want to share our faith and i think if you find yourself in a desire just to share your faith with other people you got to find other people that already are living it and just share your testimony with them share where you've had that experience with christ but don't dump that on someone that's just curious because if they receive it it might make them feel like you're intruding in their life or you're kind of pushing them or manipulating them, even though none of those things are actually what are happening. It's kind of like that little animal that kind of peeks out, you know, and it's a groundhog, right?

And all of these people are looking at it, just runs back in. So we want to really just kind of engage that person. And so once we've kind of moved them from the stage of curiosity, something that naturally takes place after is an opening to change. And personally, I think that this is probably where spiritual battles will begin in this person's life. So we really need to fast and pray for them at this stage, not to say we shouldn't have done it before. But I think that any time we're being asked to change, it's a scary thing because we hold on to things thinking that they're going to make us happy. And so the idea of knowing, for example, a lot of people get caught up in the church with all its moral teachings, and they can genuinely be really afraid of accepting church teaching on certain things because they think that this is going to lead to a life of misery. That's the narrative our secular culture holds, and that's maybe what they've been saturated in and so

what i think we can do to help a person in this place is begin to witness to them about changes in our own life so we're not coming across as this kind of person who's perfect. But we're saying, you know, I am a person who needs to change constantly. And this is how I found the change actually has brought more peace into my life. So there can be a witness of our own change. And even to say to that person, you can see how God is working in their life. And to bring their attention maybe to some things that are changing without their even recognizing it, and how these are positive things. You can even ask them to ask God for a sign. God's signs are there to create faith. They're not there to serve our own personal agenda, but they're there to generate faith. And it's actually kind of a dangerous thing.

When I asked the Lord, because I really didn't want to become a priest, when I asked him, feeling the notion that this was his call for me, I said, well, fine, but you're going to have to prove it to me. And it was like being hit over the head with a two by four when he did. God answers those prayers. And I think that we have to be open to that. And that's what this stage is all about, is giving him some role of leading us. And we can ask them to pray for their openness, and we can ask them to pray to become more open in that time. I just caution us in the way that we word that, because we don't want to give them the impression that we think that they're closed,

but just that sense of being open to God's love. Does that make sense? It does. It makes a ton of sense. It's very practical. I want to make this distinction again, because it can be confusing. There's the difference between the law of gradualness and the gradualness of law. Do you know what I'm referring to here, this distinction? Obviously, you know, laws don't develop, you know, we are called to be perfect, and yet at the same time, we need to meet people where they're at. Would you distinguish those two terms for us one more time and explain the difference and why it's important? Yeah, so St. Thomas Aquinas had the view of the gradualism, the law of gradualness, rather, which is we apply the law always to people,

but we understand that there's a process involved in that person coming to love the law of the church. So just as a practical example, one that we commonly face is, you know, people maybe with a same-sex attraction know that the church's teaching is that we don't believe in same-sex marriage. So we encounter people that might already be living in relationships like that and we we don't tell them that well that's it's okay to be in that relationship and receive the eucharist or to be initiated into the church we might say um that we want you to be members of our community um and but there's a process involved and let me walk with you in that process and part of that process is going to be examining,

you know, God's will for you in your life, God's designs for you. And these are good, positive things. We want you to have peace and following God and embracing your own vocation and your call. And I think that,

um, that's, that's a very hard thing to ask someone and to expect for them just to have this switch go off and them to change what they've been emotionally and rooted in in their life and inundated with kind of secular church, but we also have to extend to them at the same time that patience and compassion and company. Now, I want to stress that when I say we have to be faithful to the law, that this is not a burden or a chore. The law and its enforcement teaches. That's a very Thomistic principle is that the law teaches. If we begin to do what's called instead the gradualism of the law, which is we don't apply certain laws to people depending on where they are. So go ahead and receive communion, even though you're in this gravely disordered state of life or way of life.

even though you're in this gravely disordered state of life or way of life, what we do by that is we passively or indirectly teach that person that this law isn't actually a big deal. Because our praxis, the way that we're practicing the law, if we say it can be suspended or ignored, when it's a divine law, it applies to mutable. We're basically saying this law isn't really important by virtue of our actions and by virtue of our discipline or practice of it. And so the gradualism of the law is kind of compromising the moral law and suspending it in a way that's not reasonable. Now, certain laws, according to St. Thomas, can be suspended,

but in a very strict sense. So I'll give you an example. Certain laws always apply, divine laws, for example. But there's laws like self-preservation, trying to preserve your life. And one of the reasons why we have speed limits on the road is to try to foster a reasonable kind of speed to drive. Now, if you're driving on the road, you're driving the speed limit, and you see a tornado behind you forming, I would say that you could suspend the law of following the speed limit to get the heck away from that tornado. Because that law of driving speed limit has a certain context to it, which is to preserve your life. But now your circumstances are a bit different. And so the law doesn't apply in that way. So this is maybe a bit of a convoluted explanation, but my point is it is complicated to a certain extent.

But we don't suspend immutable precepts of the law. We might suspend secondary laws, but not primary ones. And one of the primary ones we hear from sacred scripture is that we treat the Eucharist as a sacrament of initiation, and we treat it with reverence. We treat him with reverence, Jesus with reverence, acknowledging the fact that there's a total surrender meant to be taking place in this reception of Christ into our body and into our soul. And if there's a part of us that's objectively in rebellion against him, it becomes a sacrilege where we drink and eat condemnation upon ourselves. And this is true objectively. This is true in terms of objective sin and mortal sin as well. So I think that that applies to everything. And that's where we can't apply

this whole gradually meeting people where they are so for example on the subject of um transgenderism um this is a big issue in canada i don't know what it's like in the states right now it's pretty huge okay um well it's becoming canada perceived to be a form of um a hate crime if you use the wrong pronoun that the person would prefer and by wrong i mean what they prefer so if a person asks you to refer to him as a her by doing so we're formally cooperating with a lie which is unhelpful to the spiritual person so we're formally cooperating with a lie, which is unhelpful to the spiritual person. So we're formally cooperating with something that is not true. And what we're doing is we're entering into, we're assenting to, by the language we use, because we're not nominalists, we're assenting to the anthropology that they uphold rather than our own.

to the anthropology that they uphold rather than our own. And as a comparison, if a Muslim student came up to me and said, Muhammad is a prophet. Could you please refer to him as the prophet? I would say, I cannot refer to him as a prophet because that's contrary to my faith and what i believe to be true and most people would say yeah that's reasonable but why don't we apply that to the whole secular anthropology of um gender with catholics why don't i have the freedom why am i being told what anthropology i have to believe in with the words that i use that are connected to my beliefs and and that's where i think that um we are entering into that gradualism of the law to meet people where they are but we're keeping them where they are yeah because we're never applying the ideal or the the law of perfection or grace to their life as something to walk towards. Yep, yep, yep.

That makes total sense. Yeah. This is so essential that we understand this. I mean, human beings are not computers into which you type a syllogism and out of which you get a proper belief. I mean, we are very complicated things with emotions and memories and wounds, fears of looking a certain way or being classified as a certain way, that when we engage another human being and tell them about the good news, we really have to be pastoral in our approach. Yeah. And that word pastoral in our approach. Yeah.

And that word pastoral, right, like it gets used almost like a trump card. But pastoral, we're leading a person to the truth. Right. We're not doing it violently. We're doing it with invitation and with dialogue and with relationship. We're doing it with invitation and with dialogue and with relationship. But being pastoral, like you're not going to go out of your way to use the pronoun that they would prefer you not use. Sure.

Rather than in their face, right? Right, right, right. But at the same time, you're saying, I'm sorry, but— I can't lie. That's not what I believe. And in fact, I actually don't think that this is good for you or a way of helping you to accept who you really are as God has created you. And I think we have to be very discerning of the language that we use to speak about that. And we have to bend over backwards to show that we're coming from a place of love, which is why that relationship is so essential. Yeah, I spoke with Father Mike Schmitz on the Matt Fradd Show about this

issue of same-sex marriage and, you know, same-sex attraction. And, you know, we spoke about, you know, the idea, you know, obviously Father Mike Schmitz cubs at this at a very, from a very loving point of view. Someone in his life very close to him has same-sex attraction, you know, so he's very compassionate and good. But at the same time, he does call them to what the church teaches. And he said that people often experience this sort of like, wait, wait, what's going on? Like, I've never encountered someone like you who speaks so, you know, lovingly about same-sex inclinations, but at the same time is calling us to what the church is teaching. But I think at the end of the day, like, calling us to what the church is teaching. But I think at the end of the day, there's something to respect in that approach. I imagine if I had same-sex attraction, I wouldn't be able to

respect in Father James Martin. I'm not saying everything Father James Martin is saying is unhelpful, but I was speaking to my friend Dan Mattson about this, and he said while he was living in the homosexual lifestyle, if he were to encounter somebody like a Father James Martin who kind of danced around the topic, sort of suggested that one day this might change and all that, he would have found it very unhelpful. But rather to encounter somebody who came at him lovingly, but at the same time pointed him, along with the person proclaiming, right, to this rule, to which we're all all called that he would have had a lot more respect for that person you know there's there's a weird experience of love that we can get from our spiritual fathers where you feel the

challenge that they have for you where they pierce your heart with like let's say a correction and it's not something you want to hear but when you know that it's coming from a place of love yeah you feel like you're being fought for yes totally that's a great way to put it i i felt that recently in my own life i've had some people come to us and say some things. We've gone to others and have said some things. And then just the working out of that, you know, so there's no misunderstanding, so there's no hurt. But I remember coming away and like saying to my wife, like that took tremendous courage. Like that person did not have to engage us in that conversation. They could have let our conversation, our friendship rather, fizzle out

and we would have never had to have this uncomfortable thing. The fact that they didn't, like, wow, I feel really, as you say, fought for. Yeah. And I think it happens when you've built that relationship with them already so it has that context. It's not like they're just irritably expressing an opinion that personally annoys them. It's like you really get the sense that they're coming from a place of love and concern for you. That's an awesome experience, even as uncomfortable as it might be. Now, what could we say about Aquinas' approach here when it comes to accompaniment I can think of a couple of things

just in the just in his the way he writes and who he's writing to and the method he employs any thoughts on that yeah I think one of the things he does really well is listen yeah man totally yeah totally yeah I often say to people like you try to come up with five objections to something you feel terribly strong about and try to put them in a way that doesn't caricature the opposition. That's a difficult thing to do. Like, try and come up with else doesn't have to be abortion, but something we feel strongly about. But the fact that he's able to do that is, yeah, yeah, that's accompaniment. You're coming alongside someone and asking them, what do you think? And then you're repeating it back to them in a way that's often stronger than how they could formulate it. There's something validating taking place where you know you've been heard and your position is not being mischaracterized or a straw man is not being developed, but you've genuinely been heard and the person is responding to what you said, not with malice or angst or a lack of emotional equilibrium or self-control, but there's a real reasoned response that this person has spent time developing and then sharing with you. I just, it's a dialogue. It's not just listening. It's listening and responding without, without mischaracterizing the person and that I think that requires a lot of interior

maturity because when people say things that we don't agree with we can just jump down their throat or like you said you know just allow the relationship to fizzle out. And it was interesting. I went to a conference a number of years ago in Boston for vocations, and one of the things the panel of psychologists were saying was that a growing personality disorder that's developing is avoidance personality disorder. There's this inability to deal with conflict. So people will become either agreeable just to avoid it that is fascinating you cut out there a bit by the way your microphone can you just repeat that you said that you were with somebody who talked about this growing disorder

yeah where were you can you hear me better now yeah fine i just cut out for like two seconds okay yeah so just this personality disorder that's developing called avoidance um personality disorder where people are avoiding conflict at all costs so they might become very agreeable uh just to avoid conflict or they might become indifferent not develop a position on anything just to avoid any kind of debate or difference and so um i think that that's why we might see things like safe spaces coming up yeah and there's really like a a lack of maturity that's been enabled in these people's lives, which is a very sad thing, to deal with living in a world where people disagree with them. And therefore, governments will say, well, therefore,

we have to all agree. And this is a law being made in a democracy where you have to use this specific language, and we cannot have any public debate on it because it will be interpreted as hatred and so even that personality and psychological disorder is now being um enabled with the very laws that canada is producing and maybe in the states as well and and i think that um if we can develop a relationship with people where we can show them that we disagree with them, but we still want to hang out with them and get to know them and, you know, enjoy each other's company, that can show the person that just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I hate you. This is a, yeah, that's right. I mean, we hear a lot more about ghosting these days. I'm kind of old and uncool and not with it anymore. But I saw a t-shirt the other day talking about, I'll never ghost you, you know.

And just like this new term that's even come into our vocabulary because we do it so often. That's basically where you just stop replying to somebody altogether. Yeah, very fascinating. Well, here's another way I think Aquinas accompanies people really well. Aquinas accompanies people really well. We have for our patrons at patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, Aquinas' article De Rationibus Fidei, in English the sub kind of title is Reasons for the Faith Against Muslim Objections and One Objection of the Greeks and Armenians to the Canter of Antioch. But what's interesting is when he objects to the Muslims, he doesn't use sacred scripture. He doesn't appeal to it. But when he is in dialogue with the Greeks, the Orthodox, he does.

Like, that's a way of accompanying someone as well. It's like, okay, recognizing where you're at and what you're able to hear. So you're not actually able to, you know, see sacred scripture as an authority, so I don't have to use it. I need to find another way in, as it were. But when it comes to the Orthodox, you can, because this is something we agree on. Yeah, so you're building off of what they already value. Yeah, totally. I think the other thing, another way to accompany people is to not expect them to accept everything all at once. if somebody had said to me when i was in rome in the year 2000 when i came to encounter the person of christ that i also had

to accept you know the um the inerrancy of scripture the idea that homosexual acts were sinful i'm not you know i wouldn't have been able to i don't think uh but this idea of like the lord meets us where we're at and like guides us towards these truths. Yeah, that's important, especially if you're like on the plane with somebody and you get into a conversation about the faith and they feel very strongly about why a man should be able to marry a man and that this is a legitimate thing and just as legitimate as a man marrying a woman. I don't necessarily need to get that person to agree with my position on that right now. Perhaps I want to talk about the existence of God and whether this God has

revealed himself to us and whether he has anything to say about how men and women should live, you know, as opposed to getting stuck on these issues, you know, because if God doesn't exist, then it would seem obvious that I suppose that men and men and women and women could do whatever they wanted. And all these actions might be equally legitimate in some sense. But if we begin kind of from the ground up, what is there a God, even if we never get to this issue of of homosexual marriage? You know, I think that might be a better approach, you know? Yeah, I agree. And I think, again, we can't fall into the pride of

thinking it all depends on us. Like a lot of the, St. Bernadette, I think, who said that it's my job to inform, not to convince. And there's that real sense. I remember when I was working for a Catholic TV station, and there was this woman who was really struggling with the problem of evil. TV station. And there was this woman who was really struggling with the problem of evil. And this was in the middle of my philosophy degree. So I was totally turning into one of Job's friends. And I was trying to explain everything away. And nothing I said worked. And even trying to use the book of Job and use that. And it was like god like these all convinced me why aren't they convincing her and then this one person this random person comes by her and she brings up the same question and he basically said exactly what i had been saying and it was what convinced her and come on

so envious i was like and i thought i was going to be the one you know and i thought i had all the answers and and it was just like no this was god's work and maybe this person was given a charism at that special moment and god used it to humble me like yeah it is being done here so this reminds me of first Corinthians 3, verse 6, where St. Paul said, I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God gave the growth. So any kind of conversion that comes about ultimately isn't due to our brilliance. It can be helpful being brilliant and clearing away obstacles and helping respond to objections but it's the holy spirit you know that does the growth yeah so i think that leads us into the

fourth stage of the thresholds of conversion so the last one was being open to change just just go over those four stages one more time yeah okay uh the first is building a builder uh building a bridge of trust second is arousing a curiosity within that person, leading to the next, which is an openness to change. And when this person is open, they're just entertaining what it would be like to be a Catholic or a Christian. The fourth stage is serious seeking. So, you know, we read in Scripture, Jesus turned and saw them following him and said to them, you know, what are you looking for? So there's a real engagement. So this is when the person moves from maybe a passive position into a very active position.

So they're looking for signs. They're looking for a relationship with God. They're looking for an encounter. looking for a relationship with God. They're looking for an encounter. And it's maybe a good analogy for it is they're dating God with a purpose. So they're not married to him. They're not a spouse to him. They're not totally committed to him, but they're checking him out. And I think what it isn't is seeking is not intentionally being a disciple. So again, this person, a disciple is a person who says, okay, the way that the Lord lives and what he wants me to do and his work, I want to be formed in that. That's not what this is.

This is just a person looking for a relationship with God. They haven't yet got to that place of responding. So a person may be on a boat and have all their gear, but they aren't yet fishing. And so this is kind of, so a good thing to do in this stage to help people is to introduce a person to the works of mercy. The reason why I think that's really wise is because we want to facilitate an encounter with the Lord. And sometimes we make the mistake of saying, well, how did I encounter the Lord? And that's the only way that this person can experience. So for me, it was in Eucharistic Adoration in Steubenville. And therefore, I might make the error of saying, well, the only thing that's going to bring this person to Christ is Eucharistic Adoration. And that's not to say it won't be, but there are a wide array of things. sacred scripture and reflecting on sacred scripture was what led him to know his his relationship with god existed in that way um you know i've heard of a i think it was a journalist

in new york who was agnostic and he went out and volunteered with catholics who were doing social justice work in a homeless shelter and by feeding the poor he became came to believe in christ or the 20 coptics that were killed and the one agnostic with them when they were all being killed and the muslim asked this agnostic what do you believe he said their god is my god wow you know like that that real witness. And there's so many different ways. And what we need to do is get to know them and see what kind of things in their nature

do they gravitate towards. Is it the good, the true, or the beautiful? And if they're attracted to truth, you know, you lead them to, you know, things that can lead them into a deeper relationship with God and encounter his goodness in that truth. And so I think what we have to do is be very creative and not have tunnel vision and say, this devotional practice or adoration or this is the only way. But we have to really be versatile and think outside of our own experience.

And so we can teach them different prayers and traditions and practices. But I think the other part is we really have to help them confront and wrestle with personal sin. Because at this stage, when they're seeking, there's going to naturally be this feeling of unworthiness, or whether God really loves them or accepts them, that real vulnerability. And so to kind of help them through that and to really have a sense of God's mercy and all their sin being a drop in the ocean of God's mercy, I think has to be more than a sentiment. It has to be drilled into them in a supportive way. Beautiful. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, that's how to do accompaniment with Aquinas, I suppose, or in the spirit of Aquinas

or just the way we ought to do it. So that was really great. I think this is really helpful because I think, as you say, I think people tend to either feel really anxious about evangelizing and they don't ever do it or they do it, but they do it too abrasively. I think what we have to do is, as our first Pope says in 1 Peter 3, verse, where is it? 15? Always be ready to give a defense uh do you want to close you do account for the hope that's in you yet do it with gentleness and reverence so this has been really great uh thank you so much

father chris for coming back on the show how can people connect with you learn more about the work that you're involved in i have a podcast you're welcome to join that. It's on iTunes and Google Play. It's called Fide at Ratio. I'm also on Twitter as FR Petrasco. And then, yeah, I'm on Facebook too. Lovely. All right. Well, thank you very much. Thanks, Matt. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for listening to this week's episode of Pints with Aquinas. Do us a favor before you go. Review us on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcast. And the reason for that is the more reviews it gets, the more serious iTunes takes us.

And so if people are looking up Aquinas or beer or philosophy, Pints with Aquinas might pop up as a suggestion. We have well over 3,000 reviews now. We're super grateful to all of you. But if you haven't reviewed the show yet, consider doing it. I know it's just a few seconds for you, but it means a ton to us. Thanks so much and have a great week. My whole life to carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life.