Pints With Aquinas - 208: Why Sr. Natalia Became a Nun

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

In this episode of Pints with Aquinas, I chat with my dear friend, Sr. Natalia, who is a Byzantine nun. We talk about what it's like to be a religious sister. WARNING: In this conversation, we get real, real quickly. If you're a young woman discerning God's will in your life, then this conversation is ABSOLUTELY for you. Or if you're someone who just loves conversion stories about people radically loving Jesus, then you're going to LOVE this episode. SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints  Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pints_w_aquinas/ MY BOOKS Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist... Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecr... The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myt... CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequ... Website - mattfradd.com Facebook - facebook.com/mattfradd/ Twitter - twitter.com/mattfradd

G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd and today I'll be joined around the bar table by my good friend Sister Natalia who is a beautiful young Byzantine nun. And we talk about what it's like to be a nun because I don't know, never had the chance because the church is sexist. It's a joke. Not a good one, but it's a joke. This is a fantastic chat that we just had. If you're a young woman discerning religious life, this is going to be very helpful to you. Or if you're just someone who loves conversion stories and hearing about people who radically love Jesus, this will be an amazing conversation. We get real really quickly. One of the things I try to do at Pints with Aquinas is break people out of the soundbites and just have real discussions about being a flawed human who

is trying to love Jesus by his grace. Maybe you're a young woman who's discerning religious life, but you're like, I struggle with pornography from time to time, or that's a part of my past, and I'm not sure what that means. Am I just trying to become a religious sister? So I'll look holy because I've got, you know, all this baggage. We have all sorts of motivations, you know, when discerning things like this marriage, as well as religious life, we get into a lot of that. And it was just really great. You're going to absolutely love sister Natalia. She's the bomb. Hey, subscribe. I'm telling you. So you have to do it. Click subscribe, click the bell button. That way Google will be forced to let you know every time we put out a new video. to grow in your prayer life, or you find it difficult to pray, but you want to grow in it, check out hallo.com. It's a fantastic app that'll help you pray. It's really well put together,

and it's 100% Catholic. Click the link in the description below, use the promo code Matt Fradd, and then you'll get access to everything on their app. So they actually have new stuff coming out every day on the free version. But if you subscribe, which I think you should do, because this is an amazing Catholic company putting together a really an amazing thing. I have it. My wife has it. Actually, I just recorded a sleep story for them. You're welcome. So, you know, I read the Song of Songs. so you know I read the song of songs that might be creepy so if it's too creepy you could go and listen to

Father Mike Schmitz who has a much better voice than me anyway but anyway check it out, hallo.com as I say click the link below and Bob's your uncle as we say in Australia okay here is my episode I'm really sorry about this long intro here is my episode, no I sorry about this long intro here is my episode

no i'm not with sister natalia enjoy that friggin fantastic it's so amazing i love the colors too. Isn't it? Weren't you genuine? You have the same colors. Yeah, it's all the same. Oh, I didn't know that. I was like, maybe you sent me black because of my habits. Yeah. No, it's beautiful. When I first, I don't mean to go on and on about my own product, but when I, I'm going to do it. When I opened it for the first time,

I remember being like, this is the greatest thing I have ever seen. I'm glad you enjoy it. That's what I think when I look in the mirror every day. Wow, it's amazing. And you're not even allowed to wear makeup, right? No. Thankfully, I didn't wear makeup before I answered. Not out of some moral stance, but simply out of laziness.

That's awesome. Sister Natalia, how's it going? It's going great. Christ has risen. Indeed, he has risen. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you? Where are you from? Why are you wearing that weird hat thing? The weird hat thing. Veil thing. Not hat. Veil. I don't know. We get it a lot. It's fine.

I'm Sister Natalia, as you mentioned. I'm a nun at Christ the Bridegroom Monastery in Burton, Ohio. We're a Byzantine Catholic community, about 45 minutes east of Cleveland, more or less. And gosh, I don't know what to share. I've been here for four and a half years, approximately. I was tonsured and nun about three and a half years ago. That's when I received the new name, my full habit, the hat thing. What was your name?

Can I ask you? What was your name before Natalia or no? You can ask me. You can also reject. No, I'll tell you. It was Victoria. Victoria, that's a beautiful name. I was thinking like Sister Daphne just doesn't have the air of religiosity that Natalia does.

Yeah, I was Victoria. Very good. Okay. And is it rude to ask how old you are? Oh, I'm 29. It might be rude. I think it's rude to ask women that in general. I thought so, but you're young enough.

You're in that spot where it's more of a compliment maybe. Okay, so you're 29. Do you have siblings? I do. I'm the youngest of four i have two brothers and a sister um they live in new york connecticut and virginia so that's awesome they're all kind of in the epicenter right now of the covid19 stuff over there i have four kids two boys and two girls you have a boy that flies i've seen seen it. Yes, he does. He wears a Superman cape and jumps upstairs. Very dangerous.

Okay, very, very good. When you grew up, were you particularly religious, your family? So that's an interesting question. I was raised Catholic, but not really. I think my parents would even say that I wasn't necessarily very well catechized and amazing people, my parents. But, you know, I think we're just kind of in that generation that wasn't super well catechized. So I didn't really know about like the true presence in the Eucharist or things like that, you know, pretty substantial teachings of the church. substantial teachings of the church. Um, we prayed grace before meals and we went to church on Sundays and that was kind of the, um, that was kind of the threshold of, of the faith that we practiced at home. Um, and when I was in high school, um, my whole family left the Catholic church. Um, and I, um, that's also an interesting question.

We've never really talked as a family about why it was. Let's do it live on YouTube right now. Right? Yeah. Let's dig into it. I'm sure my parents are going to watch this. So sorry, mom. Sorry, dad.

Um, it's just air family history. Um, no, I think, I think that probably most of us in our family would say it came about because my brother was very seriously injured in the war in Iraq. And so he was in the hospital for about a year and a half in Walter Reed. And it just kind of shook our faith, I guess, because our faith was so superficial that we had never really had to encounter such, such trauma. And, um, and I think that those kinds of things can either bring someone much closer to the Lord or can cause them to, to kind of forget him. And, and

I guess we took the latter route. Um, so, but, but like I said, we never really talked about it. We just kind of stopped going to church as a family. And then shortly thereafter, my dad was sent to Baghdad, um, and less than a year before retiring. And, um, and, and then when he came back, we just never, never really went back to church. So it wasn't like something your parents declared. It wasn't like we made an official decision. You just kind of stopped. Yeah. Okay. So then when did you have some sort of religious awakening? Surely that must have happened between not really going to mass and being a nun.

Yeah. Something happened in there. When I was in college, I had a pretty big reversion back to the Catholic church. And it was actually, oh, gosh, this is a great story. When I I've told this story recently, by recently, I mean, maybe a year ago, someone very sweet old lady was asking me about, like, my conversion story. And I said, Well, you know, when I, I was in college, and I met this guy, and I had a crush on him. And she you know, when I was in college and I met this guy and I had a crush on him and she was like, do you mean Jesus? And I was like, no, no, no. His name wasn't Eric.

I made that name up. But yeah, that's what it was. I had a crush on a guy and he invited me to mass at the cathedral in Denver. And I was like, no way. I don't want to go to mass. I haven't been in years. Um, but you know, I had a crush on the guy. So what are you going to do? So I went and I just wept through all of mass and just felt Christ's presence stronger than I ever had, which I think is a huge Testament to the truth of the real presence in the Eucharist. Because like I said, I wasn't even aware of that teaching, but I just like felt his presence there in the mass.

So was there a particular point within Holy Mass that you began to sort of have that experience? It wasn't like you walked in, genuflected, sat down and started crying. Was it like the Eucharist in particular or? I can't recall, honestly. Yeah, that's a good, honest answer. Was this like a focus guy? I don't know. You know,

it's focus has a big presence in Denver. Right. He, he was not, he wasn't a focus missionary, um, but he was involved in like, he was in, um, focus on campus. So, so that's actually how it continued is he invited me to his adoration group. Um, the, the adoration group that he led on campus and or near campus. And again, I said no, because I thought this was ridiculous. But then I go anyways, still haven't learned about the true presence. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, what do these people think they're doing? And it felt very strange, but I just kind of closed my eyes and prayed. And and then we went out for hamburgers afterwards.

And a Focus missionary said to me there, he was like, hey, you should come to this Focus conference. And I was like, no, I haven't been to church in years. And this is like the first time I've been back. And I'm not going to some like Jesus freak convention is what I thought it was. And he was like, it's in Florida. And I still said no. And he asked why not? And I said, well, I can't afford it, which was true, but an excuse. And so he said, we'll pay for everything. We'll pay for the flight. We'll pray. We'll pay for the conference, everything, um, your food while you're there. And now I'm thinking like college kid free trip to florida um and with this guy that i have a crush on so um so i was like yeah okay i'll go and so

he pulls his laptop out in the restaurant and he's like great sign up right now bloody enthusiastic catholics huh there's nothing quite right calm down there champion let's give it 24 hours marinating this idea a little bit. I was there. I spoke at that Seed Conference in Florida. Well, how do you know? They've had multiple, haven't they? I don't think so.

I mean, you're talking about, well, they've had multiple, but not so many that I think they've been back to. This was right by Disney World, right? Yes, yeah. And this was in 2012 Disney World right yes yeah and this was in 2012 and what 12 around there like I forget 2010 I think yeah yeah that was the one I was there I was speaking you didn't even say hi oh that's so fun yeah I might have listened to your talk if I did I think I spoke to yeah it wasn't memorable but cheers no I think I spoke to the men. I was so, so sick. So awfully sick. That entire day that I had to speak,

I had a banana and a bottle of Pepto-Bismol. And I remember after my second talk, which I think I did quite well at, walking down the stairs and just laying on the carpet. And I think some like inspired college student came around like it was in the back of the stage so I was behind the curtains I obviously wasn't just laying in the middle of the floor but I was backstage laying on the ground and someone came around hey that was so great I'm like I couldn't barely talk but so that's crazy so you

went to that conference okay what was that like that like? Um, it was, you know, it was something I had experienced when I was in high school. I had experienced some people who were really passionate about their faith and some kids my age. And, um, and I started to feel a pull at that point. Um, just because like, I saw this joy that they had and I wanted to be around that. I just wanted to be around the joy. Um, but what was different about this focus conference is I saw this same joy. Um, but it wasn't just that I wanted to be around the joy. I, I wanted that joy for myself.

Um, so that's, that's what the experience was for me. It was like how, like, I'm, I'm doing all of the things that the world tells us will make us happy and I'm miserable. Um, and all of the things that the world tells us will make us happy and i'm miserable um and all of these people have so much joy and so like where did it come from because that's that's what i want um and so that most of your friends secular at the time most of my friends yeah were they not um absolutely yeah okay um my my best friend um shout out to laura She's amazing. Um, she's a very devout Catholic. And so she was kind of, which at the time I found to be like

an annoying quirk. Um, and something you can look past. Right. Exactly. Um, so you can see where that, where that got me. So, um, uh, so yeah, people can blame her for me being a nun, but, um, but other than her, yeah, most of my friends were secular. And even, you know, so yeah, people can blame her for me being a nun, but, um, but other than her, yeah, most of my friends were secular. And even, you know, for this, for this time, for a long time after my reversion, there was kind of this, um, there was this great tension within me, um, as I was contending with, I, I still was keeping most of those secular friends, um, which is not a bad thing. We should have, it's fine of those secular friends um which is not a bad thing we should have it's

fine to have secular friends i still have secular friends but um but i was kind of like still relying on them and and sort of keeping them there simply because i was worried that this whole religion thing might fall through and it might not actually be a sustaining a sustaining happiness and so i didn't want to like burn this bridge with these other relationships if this new fad fell through you know that's a super prudent thing to think because how old were you at the time like 20 i was i was 20 20 yeah that's a super prudent thing like okay i can these people seem happy maybe i'm beginning to experience this thing that they're experiencing but this might just be an emotional high that i'm going to quickly overcome, you know, several weeks after this

cool experience. Yeah, that's neat. All right, you big, beautiful buggers. I just want to take a pause and say thank you to our second sponsor, Strive. Strive. Have you heard of Strive? It's a course I put together. It's a 21-day detox from porn course I put together. And you should check it out because it's super cool. Actually, that says 14,000 men are in it right now. There's actually 17,000 men I've been told. So they need to update this. This is a 21-day detox from porn course. You get videos from me every day. You get to join a thriving online community of men. It's 100% free. You're welcome. And you can be as anonymous as you want. So click reviews up here if you're still skeptical and see what real life men, real life flesh and

blood men are saying who did the course. Strive21.com. Strive21.com. Back to the interview. So was there anything about, I mean, this is probably the first time many people when they go to the Focus Conference are so taken back by all these beautiful nuns and priests and people really living out their faith and doing it fully alive. Did that freak you out? You said like Jesus freak type of thing, or were you more moved by that? I was more moved. I don't think that there was, yeah. They're so normal. they're so great and normal right yeah I yeah I mean some nuns are normal I'm not super normal but I guess um yeah it's it was

refreshing to see I don't really remember meeting nuns there um I have a clear experience of the first time I remember meeting nuns um but, I don't remember meeting nuns there. When's the first time you met nuns? Oh, that was when you were young. You mean? No, no, it was, uh, well, it was these nuns from Christ the bridegroom monastery. It was, um, when I was, when I was, so after I just had this reversion, right. Um, at some point I was like, well, I need to discern my vocation because that's what

good Catholics do. And like, well, I need to discern my vocation because that's what good Catholics do. And like now I'm a good Catholic. So as I want to start discerning my vocation, I'm I'm not really seriously thinking about it, because in my mind, it's like if men want to become celibate priests, as as most Catholic priests are, as most Catholic priests are, then they're sacrificing a wife and children and the physical intimacy of another. But in exchange for that, they're able to absolve people of their sins and be the vessel through which bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. They get these cool superpowers. And know um and and in my mind like the nun doesn't get any of those things and so why why would a woman give up those things um yes it's like the equivalent of becoming a brother a religious brother it's like right you're already not having sex or money or any kind of power at least like be able to absolve

people from sins you know right yeah so that's not what i think that's a any kind of power at least like be able to absolve people from sins you know right yeah so that's not what i think that's a common kind of yeah something oh absolutely i mean it was it was what i thought and so in my mind obviously women only became nuns if they were ugly and couldn't find boyfriends um this is logical to me and And so, um, and I was dating plenty of guys. Um, I was, I was a serial dater in college, you know, these who just like jump from relationship to relationship. Yeah. So, um, so I was dating plenty of guys. And so I was like, so I don't need to become a nun. And so I kind of like very quickly, um, passed on from that. And then I met, um, these nuns. So, um, from that. And then I met, um, these nuns. So, um, I don't know if they would want me to say their names at the time. So now mother Theodora, mother Cecilia and mother Gabriella, um, were on

a road trip on their way to an ordination in Las Vegas. Um, so they stopped through my parish in Colorado, um, road trip to Vegas nation. It really was an ordination, I promise. So in the Byzantine, right, at least in our eparchy, or at least with that particular bishop, I think the priestly ordinations were done at the president's home parish, and he was from Las Vegas. So I met them on that road trip as they were on their way through, and then I also went to the ordination. So I saw them there as well. trip as they were on their way through. And then I also went to the ordination. So I saw them there as well. But I remember when I met them just being so surprised because I'm like, but these women are beautiful. And certainly they could all have boyfriends. And they're all smart and talented. And so what's that about? And so then that kind of like rocked the boat a little bit, you know,

and then I was like, maybe I need to think a little differently about this whole discernment thing. Yeah, that's really interesting. I know what you mean. I think a lot of us have kind of experienced that I was a part of a diocese, the third largest in the world, at least geographically. I think the first is probably somewhere in Russia. I don't know. But in South Australia, I was part of that diocesee and i think the last ordination they had had there i might be wrong but i think it's about 30 years ago or 25 years ago whoa that that continues so when i was when i got serious about being catholic and discerning the priesthood i remember looking around it i mean many of the priests were really good and decent men and some of them were even holy but you know a lot of them were just sort of like wearing the civvies and call me john and i'm like oh my gosh and so i remember the first time i

started meeting like young priests who were well-rounded and humble and interesting and i remember that shocking me as well but then you kind of yeah no that's it i got nothing beautiful okay so did you grow up roman latin catholic roman catholic i did i grew up roman catholic so was it after you met these women that you became byzantine no by that point that was already my home parish um it was um shortly after coming back to the church. I, there was a guy who brought me to the, to the Byzantine parish. And, and it was just this guy and I never, I mean, I think we went on, we went on one date, but otherwise it was just, we were just friends. But, but I just, in, in my, my very first divine liturgy, I absolutely fell in love with the

Byzantine rite. Um, and so, which, which I like to emphasize for people, um, you know, that it wasn't that it wasn't a situation of like, I was frustrated with the Roman church or, or, um, or with Roman Catholicism or anything like that. You know, I wasn't running away from anything. And in fact, I think that we really need to check our motives when we're running away from things, but it was rather a running to, um, I just really loved the, the Byzantine, the Byzantine liturgy. Um, I loved the theology and the

iconography and, and everything. And so, and then I did about the Romans simply because I wasn't so catechized. Yeah, that's beautiful. When did you start thinking seriously about becoming a nun? Probably after college. I was a missionary for a year and a half after college and and in that time i started more seriously more seriously discerning um yeah i'm trying to think like here's some of the objections to becoming a nun right like the more superficial ones are like you don't get to have sex and and like nice clothes and nice clothes and stuff and cool i will say as far as the clothing thing um i will say it's kind of nice to not have to figure out what i'm

gonna wear each day preach it do you know this is something that i've done i've pretty much gotten rid of every shirt of mine that isn't black so even though i don't have a religious everything exactly i mean okay but yeah so like i mean because obviously there's the more substantial things which we should address too like having a family and growing old with a husband and things like this but i want to get yeah let's get to that later superficial stuff sex and handbags how did you deal with that sure or was that not even uh not so much the handbags but i miss jeans i miss jeans a lot um so yeah you know and it's interesting um i think i think people can get this idea in their heads that um that priests and nuns and monks, um, because as you mentioned, monks are like the, the, the

masculine parallel to a nun, right. Um, so, or brother, um, so, um, priests, monks, and nuns, I think people often just kind of assume that we're, um, like asexual or something. Um, and that we no longer, it's like you become a nun and you no longer experience like sexual desire and this is just ridiculous um so and and i think it's i think it would be the equivalent of of saying that like when someone gets married they no longer are are sexually attracted to another human being you know know, besides their spouse, like also ridiculous. Um, and, um, so yeah, it's, it's definitely there, but your question of. I suppose, I mean, that objection really comes from the world, I suppose, because

sure. I suppose like those who aren't living the Catholic faith, maybe living a lifestyle in which they do hook up or have you know somewhat intimate relationships with different people but i remember for me when i was discerning the priesthood it wasn't like oh now i can have sex because for me my only options were two relationships in a sense it was like i could get married or i could because it wasn't like i can have multiple sexual i don't think that's what a lot of people especially who are on the path to religious life are thinking about anyway so maybe I maybe I phrased that wrong but I suppose that's kind of more of a secular sort of objection that's probably one you get when you're I don't know do

you run into like random people at pubs and places who well I'm not I'm not really frequenting the pubs but um but I but, but I do come across this. I meet some pretty bold secular people, and I like those people. I like those conversations, you know? Yeah, I bet they've met their match. I'm sure you do a great job with them. Yeah, it's pretty fun. Tell us about one of the conversations.

Well, it was more so I encountered this I encountered this a lot before, before I entered the monastery. Right. Um, so when I first became a missionary, um, I was, um, I ran into a professor who most certainly will never listen to this podcast, but, um, he was a physics professor that I had, uh, and, um, and he was so frustrated by my mission work. I promise this is getting to the point. He was so frustrated by my mission work. I promise this is getting to the point. He was so frustrated by my mission work because he's like thousands of people can deliver diapers and,

um, or anyone can deliver diapers and only, only one in a thousand can do the physics that you can do. And so like, this is a waste. Um, and, and I received, so it's, I think that is the greatest, um, I think that's the greatest objection I get, um, from the secular mindset is that it's a waste. Whether they're referencing, they might be talking about not having sex, but they're referencing it in the sense of it's wasteful to not act on that desire when you could have what you desire. And so I encountered this in, I was a, I was a teacher, a high school teacher before I entered the monastery for a year. And, and some of my coworkers, you know, um,

one of them called me an, an effing idiot and, uh, and, and others just told me what a waste it was. just told me what a waste it was. And, and they, they talked about, they did talk about not having sex, but they more frequently referenced what you already, what you already touched on of not having a family. But what I, what I found so interesting is that it's this, this mindset of sacrifice for the sake of intimacy with the Lord is what is so not understood by secular society. Because these same people, the same people who were thinking it very odd that I would give up sex and a family for the sake of pursuing this vocation, if I had told them I'm not having a family for the sake of my career, they would be fully supportive. Same people, you know. So it's not simply that they think family is the most

fulfilling thing. It's that they found my motivation for it to be unfathomable. Yeah, that's a really great distinction. It's almost like if God doesn't exist, then what you're doing does seem like it's a bit ridiculous. And I think for many people, even people who would say they have some vague belief in God, they really don't believe in God or that intimacy with Christ is an actual, real, legitimate, non-fictitious thing that you're capable of having. And so I think that's really what it gets down to, people just lacking faith. So, for example, I had people in my family, when I told them I was discerning the priesthood they were like well why not just become a social worker and and that reveals so much right it reveals that they're basically doing the same thing one is a bit weird and the other one doesn't have to be sure yeah i um i did remember one encounter I had since entering the monastery of, um,

one of these seculars who just like, didn't get it. Um, we went, uh, a family took us skiing a few years back. Um, so we went skiing in our full habits and it was very fun. Um, and, um, did one, I don't think any of us snowboarded. I think, I think we all skied. Um, I'll tell you those skiing in Ohio is very different than skiing in Colorado. Um, but anyways, the, I'm, I'm on the ski lift, um, with a man who is a ski instructor, but he's, he's off shift. And, um, and I just wish I'd had another nun with me. Um, I did for one of the lifts, but he and I got on the same lift again. Um, and he'd, um, you know, he'd, he'd had a couple of whiskeys under his belt at that point, I think. And so he's just not holding back. Um, and he says, so he's, he's asking us about, um, like TV shows. Um, and we're like, yeah, you know, we don't, we don't really watch TV. Like we have a TV, but we don't have, we don't have cable or anything. We just like, you know,

once a month or so we'll watch a movie together. Um, we watched sound of music last week and that was a couple of weeks ago. So that was fun. Um, appropriate. So he's like, you don't have, you don't watch TV. And we're like, no, not really. Um, a couple episodes of Star Trek every once in a while. Um, and then he says, well, but like, how do you get your fix? And he's just so completely baffled, you know? And he's like, because, because you're so happy, you're, you're both so happy. And he's absolutely bewildered. You know? Um, he's like, you don't, you don't haveildered you know um he's like you don't you don't have tv and you don't have sex and you don't have how are you happy um and you just want to say

have you met the millions of people who are not short on either and are miserable yeah right so including this man clearly um so, that's interesting. Okay. So I should have started with this because I'm sure we have a lot of, not a lot, but we do have a significant chunk of like evangelical viewers as well. So as a nun, you take three vows or no? How does it work? So technically in the East, we don't take vows. But yes, we promise.

It's more the life profession of a nun is more the bishop gives a catechesis, and we agree to the things that he's asking of us. But we don't have the same formula that the West has of saying, like, I vow this and I vow that. But we do agree to promise, um, poverty, chastity and obedience. So, um, and so chat set, you know, so chastity is pretty, pretty straightforward. Um, so you'll never get married. You'll never have kids. Um, is that, is that painful even now, as I say that, is that kind of like sharp or no? Um, excruciating. Yeah. Um, yeah, of course. So I, um, this is, this is something

I get often as well, you know, is, um, when I give talks, I give, I give a lot of talks to teenagers, um, which is really stressful because I don't really like giving talks. So, um, even like right now, um, I love teenagers. I taught high school. Um, but, uh, I used to tell them that, that I thought God made them cute and funny on purpose to prevent me from killing them. Um, but they, yeah, I, I get this question a lot at the end of my, not at the end because by the end they know, but, um, when we have Q and a, they often say, and I think adults think this as well. It's just the teens who are bold enough to say it. Um, they say, why don't, why don't you want to have kids or why don't you want to be married? Um, very common question. And, and I, and I respond with, but I, I did want those things and I still do want those things.

And then they're kind of shocked because a nun just said that she wants to be married and to have children. But it's a matter of, I think that those desires in fact enhance the fruitfulness of my vocation, of my celibate vocation, because God can absolutely provide for people who don't have those desires. Um, but they're very natural desires and to be a celibate is a supernatural calling. Um, and, and I think that the fact that I deeply desire a husband really helps me to better desire to love Christ as a husband. And the fact that I deeply desire children helps me to embrace as children all of the children that the Lord puts into my life of all ages. So these are good things. They're gifts. Those desires are gifts. And they don't go away when you take the habit. And there's still a pain when I hold babies and when I'm

playing with children and when I see couples walking, holding hands. But all of that pain is so fruitful when it's offered to the Lord. And I don't say that to just as like some pious statement. I mean, it's been a very real experience for me of seeing that the tears that come from that pain water the soil of the Garden of Gethsemane and it bears fruit. And I've seen that in my life. Gethsemane and it bears fruit. And I've seen that in my life. Yeah, because I could imagine that some people would think, okay, I get that becoming a nun doesn't mean you don't want to be married or have kids. But I would imagine a lot of people thinking that eventually you sort of come to peace with that, such that you no longer feel that sort of pain and you just use the word excruciating um maybe talk a little bit more about that because i'm sure people in discernment who are either

in religious life right now who are discerning entering religious life are thinking just like you well i know i have this deep desire for children like it's it's it's really strong sure but just so what does it look like to kind of come to peace with that or do you not come to peace with it no i i think absolutely you come to peace with it i think i'm i've i have come to peace with it i've already um requested my life profession and as you know i was supposed to make my life profession four days ago on Mother's Day. You would have been Mother Natalia, huh? That's right, yeah.

Can you get out of this right now? Like if you wanted to just bail, you know, if you just want to be like, cool, my final profession thing, coronavirus saved me from that bullet. Now I can bail and no one's going to be upset with me. Like, is that a thing? Oh, absolutely. and no one's going to be upset with me. Like, is that a thing? Oh, absolutely.

If you had have made final profession and then bailed, is that less cool? Much less cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's allowed. We're not in chains, but it's looked upon in the same way that the church leads upon marriage.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I told Jesus when my profession was delayed, again, just to clarify, it was delayed because of coronavirus, not because I'm getting cold feet or anything. But when it was delayed, I told Jesus, I was like, Jesus, this is not smart on your part

to give me this extra time. You know me. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, this, this is not smart on your part to give me this extra time. You know me. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, this is a terrible idea. But he just kind of chuckled and just, yeah, he knew that I wasn't going to bail. And at this point, it's true. I've totally given my heart to him, and he knows that, and I know that. And the day of my profession um that will be public so

everyone can see that but it's it's not um like the reality of it hasn't changed you know it's something that we all struggle with no matter our state in life whether we are in our 30s and still single whether we're married with a handful of children whether we're married and can't have children, all of us from time to time experience this intense temptation, and I think often it is, that if my life was somehow different, then it would be okay. I've married the wrong person, because I was young, right? I was young, and I had sexual desires and stuff, and so we got infatuated a bit. But really, I married the wrong person, and that's why I'm unhappy. Or it's because of this child or these couple of children that I have that I can't be happy.

I mean, we all experience that. But it's tempting to think that I'm the only one who's experiencing this. That somehow I've screwed something up and now I'm in this position and this is only happening to me. But it's such a human experience, I find, that when I speak to my friends or people like yourself, that there's this desire for something. I don't know what point I'm trying to make. I'm sure there's a good one in there. Um, no, no, but it's true. It's this, um, and, and that can be, and, and the devil uses this against us. Absolutely. Right. So it's, it's the times that I'm, it's the times that I'm frustrated with my community or that I'm, um, you know, like

really desiring, um, really desiring physical intimacy with a man or anything like, like, those are the times that I, that I think about like, well, how much easier would it be if I just had a husband who loved me and a cute little baby to hold? Um, had a husband who loved me and a cute little baby to hold. Oh my gosh, yeah. Next time, I think it was yesterday, my wife and I were getting into a heated argument in an elevator. And it wasn't really pretty. So I'll just take little videos while we're fighting.

I'll just click record when she doesn't realize and we'll just go back and forth. I'll text those to you and you can be like, okay, yeah. text those to you and you can be like yeah i appreciate it okay yeah um i i had a very i had a very beautiful experience of this in prayer one time because um there was i'm trying to decide if i want to share this i think i want to share it i'm gonna share it um so the lord put it on my heart. So I'm going to share it. There was a time since entering the monastery that, that I fell in love with a man and, and it was, it was a really difficult time because as I prayed through it, I knew, and, and mother, I was, I was fully transparent with mother and our, um, mother Theodora, our Hegumena is just so incredible.

And she's, yeah, she's great. And she's very much, um, she wants God's will and she doesn't want people to be in our monastery for the sake of numbers. Um, and so I had already been in the monastery for a few years at this point, you know, but she, but she's still, um, you know, she, when I brought this to her, she was like, well, let's, let's pray with this. Let's see if this is God's will for you, you know, and she's, she's not afraid of, she very much believes as, as we all in our community believe that it's called discernment for a reason. You know, when people enter the monastery, they're not stuck here. It's, it's supposed to be a continual discernment until the day of your life profession. So, so anyways, I bring this to her and, and as I pray through it, I just know that it's not what the Lord wants. Um, and, and I think that I had been, I had gotten to a point in my, my spiritual maturity at this point that I knew I couldn't act on it.

I think that it was the first time in my recollection that I knew God's will for me, and I just didn't want to do it. And I was like, Jesus, but I love this man. I was like, Jesus, but I love this man. And so as I'm trying to pray, I'm often like he's coming into mind and I'm picturing, you know, a life of marriage with him and children and all this. And it's just so it's so hard and it's so painful. And because I know that this isn't what God wants. And so finally, one day I'm sitting in prayer and, and this image comes to mind of us married, you know, and I'm, and I just say, I'm sorry, Jesus. I know I'm not, I'm not supposed

to be thinking about that right now. I'm supposed to be with you. And he says, no, think about it. And so then he lets it play out. Only this time, it's not like all the other times, this time he and I are screaming at each other because we're in this heated argument in an elevator. he and I are screaming at each other because we're in this heated argument in an elevator. And, and, and likely, honestly, knowing, knowing this man, he and I, like, we're both very high tempered and this is probably how it would play out. And, or, or we were sitting together and, and I'm sobbing and he has his arms crossed because we're like struggling to conceive. And, and so it's, he's, he's allowing me, the Lord is allowing me to see all of the painful parts that come with marriage and not trying to discourage me from marriage because of that.

It simply was a time of letting me see that it's not all of the rainbows and butterflies, that in that moment, while struggling in community life, I was picturing it to be. 100%. That's really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's just so crucial that people begin to share appropriately as you just did the reality of what it's like to be a married person or a religious person. I just interviewed Scott Hahn, whose episode is on my YouTube channel. He was so beautiful. He shared about a time where Kimberly, his wife, do you know who Scott Hahn is? You don't know. I do. Yeah. I, um, I used to babysit his grandkids. Oh, lovely. Where Scott, well, Kimberly asked for a transfer because she found herself attracted to somebody she was working with. Scott shared another experience where,

you know, he was hitting it off with this woman and they were talking about theological things because I guess that's what gets Scott going. And he talked about having to make the choice to sit on the opposite side of the room from her at this conference or something. I just was so honored that he would share that because the temptation is we don't share this stuff because we feel like we're bad people because of it or that we're failing or that we should be better and then the masses like me and other people are just walking around being like what is wrong with me like what something is really wrong with me because i had this thought the other day that like if i married someone else i would be i would be a lot happier you know um and just to realize that this is kind of part of the human experience which our lord wants to meet us in and which the accuser can use against us yeah yeah absolutely yeah because you're spot

on because i mean imagine you married this guy and then it's like you don't you don't escape the what if no one escapes what if because you could have been like what if i had of like stayed and and chosen to be a nun like what would my life look like you know right okay so why be a nun then like why did you like why would anyone why honestly though i mean imagine the kind of generic line is something like intimacy with jesus or something but i suppose we have a lot of young women who are watching this and they're wondering if they should be a nun and they want to know if their motives are correct like yeah why why. Why, why, how did you know you were supposed to be a nun? Because I mean, you could just be a married woman who was super into Jesus. Why a nun? Sure. And we need,

we need married women who are super into Jesus, right? Like this is the church needs, we're all called to holiness. So, you know, it's a really good question, and it's one that I struggle to answer because I just am not an eloquent person, and so it's difficult to articulate. But the easy answer of it, but I will kind of extrapolate, the easy answer of it is peace and joy. is peace and joy. And joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. And the psalmist tells us that the Lord's voice is a voice that speaks of peace, right? So what I know is that I first came to the monastery on my first visit out of obligation, because again, good Catholics out of obligation, because again, good Catholics discern their vocation. And so I was 99.9% sure I was called to the married life because I love men and I love babies. And so I just came to the monastery for a three-day visit to rule out that 0.1% so that I could feel good in then pursuing marriage, right? Because I had ruled this other thing out. I'd done my duty.

And in that three-day visit, I just experienced such a peace and joy. That was not, it wasn't surface level. It was a profound peace and joy that I experienced in my time at the monastery, in my prayer about being at the monastery and things like that. And it was unshaken by the more superficial concerns. is that when I was here for that three-day visit, mother's sister had just passed away very young from cancer. And so her biological sister, non-language, that probably needs clarified. So her funeral, mother's sister's funeral was, was while I was here on the visit. And so obviously there was much grief in, in the monastery. We were preparing for another discerner, um, who was allergic to cats and we had a cat.

So I'm like washing walls and floors and things like that this whole weekend, um, while they're doing funeral preparations. And it's all just like, there, there was no earthly reason for the peace and the joy that I was experiencing at all. But it was it was there in the midst of all of it. And and it was something that that kind of guided my whole discernment because I went back and forth. I I took longer periods between discerning with the monastery than most of the other nuns here because I was scared and because I love men and babies. Um, and, um, but it's, it's like whenever I was in those periods, there was just an unrest. Um, and whenever I came back to the

discernment, um, that's, that's when that piece came back. And, and I realized also that part of it was, so after my, after my five week observership here, there's a period right before applying, you come, you come for a three to six week visit called an observership. And at the end of that observership, um, I told mother and my spiritual father that i didn't feel comfortable applying um because because i i knew that we were all called to holiness um and that i had had so many relationships with men um that some of them were unholy some of them were unhealthy many of them were unholy, some of them were unhealthy, many of them were both, that I couldn't even picture a holy marriage for myself. And so I felt if I were applying to the monastery at that moment, it would be because I felt like it was the only way I could be holy. And I didn't want to enter the monastery and become a nun if I thought it was the only way that I could

be holy. If it was the way that the Lord wanted me to be holy, if it was the way most conducive to me to become holy, then fine, but not if it's the only way I can be holy. So I needed to be able to envision a holy marriage for myself before I could take the next step. And so I didn't apply then I left and, and I didn't know what that meant, if it meant that I was going to need to date again or not, or whatever, but I just I needed time. And then, yeah, that's really beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. I have no doubt that many women watching this have that same sort of sentiment, you know, that maybe they're addicted to pornography. Maybe they've been in several unchaste relationships. Maybe they've had abortions.

And there's this temptation or this perhaps legitimate fear that, well, the only reason I want to be a nun is so I can somehow whitewash that because I'm damaged goods anyway. So I'm not sure what holy Catholic guy would want me. So if I become a nun, I'll at least appear holy and people will look upon me as having accomplished something and being heroic. What do you say to women who have those sorts of thoughts? I would say they're all... I mean, there are many different thoughts stemming from those same lies, um, that, that the devil tries to use to dissuade us in pursuing whatever vocation.

we need to learn that our goodness is in our being and the fact that we're made in the image and likeness of God. It's not, our goodness is not in what we've done. And in fact, if my goodness is based on what I've done, then I'm damned because what I've done has been pretty horrible in my life. And so first of all, I would say that, that what you have done in your past, um, regarding sin cannot be the reason for your pursuit of a particular vocation, because it's, it's the same thing I was talking about before about becoming Byzantine, right? That we, we shouldn't, we shouldn't be running away from anything. We should only be running to. But the devil will use these lies about us and about our lack of purity or anything like that. He will use this to no end. And it's the same, he'll use the same exact angle to um, to convince someone to come to

the monastery for the wrong reasons, for, for the habit to cover up their impurity. And then another woman who, um, maybe has a genuine call to be, to be a nun, he'll, he'll tell her, but you're too impure. Um, you, you can't do that. You know, um, you can't wear the habit like those other nuns because, because they're pure and you're not. And then he's telling this other girl, you should go to the monastery to wear a habit because it'll make you look pure even though you're not. Um, and all of these are, um, are the same lie, um, used by him in different ways. And I experienced this very really, um, before I was tonsured, uh, what that means for those who don't know. Oh, sure. So tonsure tonsure literally means haircut, I think, um, or cut. Um, but it's when, um, the, the,

the haircut that you get when you become a nun. Um, and so that ceremony is called your tonsure. Um, so it's when I received the habit and my new name. So the time leading up, which it's not the final commitment, right? That's life profession, but it still is a big step. And so the time leading up to it. It's a big step because they've ruined your hair. We're going to take a big chunk of your hair out. You can leave if you want, but.

There's actually, we call it at the monastery, sometimes, so as you can see, our veil still leaves a little bit of hair out the front, and sometimes the bishop will cut a little too close, and so then a little tuft sticks out in the front. And so we call that, at our monastery, we call that the tonsure tuft. Very good. Sorry, continue.

Mine is always tucked in, but it's fine. Very good. So in the time leading up to my tonsure, Father Michael Lee, but, uh, so in the time leading up to my tonsure, um, father Michael Lee, your, um, your spiritual father, um, he had, he and I were talking and, you know, it was maybe six months before my tonsure or something. And he says, um, I'm praying for you as you approach this time. Like, I know it's going to, the devil's going to throw everything at you. And I was like, father Michael,

I'm fine. Like everything's fine. So maybe I should blame, blame this on him, but, uh, no, I love him. So, um, before my tonsure in that time, shortly after Father Michael talked to me, uh, I, I had the sudden thoughts of like all of the reasons I shouldn't be tonsured. Um, all of the reasons I shouldn't be a nun and, um, and how I would make a horrible nun and I'll be unhappy. And even though you've had this joy all this, the past time that you've been here, like it's going to go away. And, um, and you, you were so good at teaching. You should go back to teaching, you know, all of these things. And I, I very quickly dismissed these as being from the devil. I was like, it was just very obvious. Um, so then he, he just kind of turned, turned around and came from a different angle.

And once he realized that I wasn't going to give into that and that I was going to be tonsured anyways. And then he, and then he comes from the angle of, yeah, you know, it's, it's right that you're tonsured, um, because you should be a nun because let's be honest, you're not pretty enough to get a boyfriend. Um, and like, what are you going to do with your life at this point now that you've been in the monastery? And so it's, it's like, he's very willing to change tactics. Amen, yeah. And if you're going towards the vocation that God is calling you to, and the devil can't steer you away from that,

then he'll just try to make you do it for the wrong reasons. Because, you know, like at least alter your motives to bring you further from God. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, what a minefield, huh? There's a lot going on. We often totally ignore the fact that we are engaged in a spiritual combat. And, you know, that's the reality in which we find ourselves. It's not this sort of, what would you call it, like a sort of peaceful life where our life just gradually unfolds. Like we are in a world at war and our life and our

vocation and our discernment like will not make sense, um, apart from recognizing that. Sure. But, but in the midst of it, we're, we're asked to be, to be in the eye of the storm where, where the calm is and, and to rest there with Christ and to experience it around us and, um, and, and allow it to be around us and to, to fight in the ways that we're asked to fight, but also to not, to not lose our peace. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Um, what's it like, tell me what your, what is your day in the life of a nun look like? Lead us through a day. Oh, well, each day is different.

Um, but in our monastery, typically, I guess we, um, we start with, uh, matins or morning prayer at six 30. Um, and that, uh, we abbreviated a little bit and so it's an hour and a half. Um, so like abbrevi And so it's an hour and a half. So like abbreviated, it's an hour and a half. So we start with 15 minutes of the Jesus prayer, which have you talked about the Jesus prayer on the podcast? I have, but I'm going to make you do it as well. So at some point, feel free to jump into it now if you want. Sure. So the Jesus prayer is the traditional prayer of the East. And we usually pray it on a tchotki. So I have one here on my wrist. But it's some variation of this. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And so we pray this in silence for 15 minutes at 6.30, and then we

have matins until 8. And then we have time for spousal prayers, which is what we call the time when we do our cell rule in our cell. Spousal prayers and exercise from 8 to 10. What's spousal prayers? So spousal prayers are when we just have time for, for private prayer. Um, why do you call it spousal? Well, in our monastery, um, being Christ the bridegroom monastery, we, we have a strong emphasis on that spousal relationship with Christ. Um, and, and also desire to, in many ways, recapture, um, the spousal imagery that, that secular society has kind of distorted. Um, not kind of majorly distorted. So. Spouse and prayers and then exercise.

Prayer and exercise from eight to 10. And then we have a couple hours to do work, um, which the work entails much of it is just, you know, we're, we're like any household and just a bigger household than usual. And so we have to do all of the cooking and cleaning and, um, finances and stuff that any household would have. Um, we also will, um, bake the prosphora, the communion bread, um, or we have pustenias. Um, pustenia is the Slavic, I'm having to explain a lot of terms here. Pustenia is the Slavic word for desert. And so our pustenias are the little retreat houses in which people come for time alone with the Lord in the desert.

So booking and managing and cleaning the pustenias are part of the work, things like that. 12 to 1230, we have either first, third, sixth, or ninth hour. And then some intentions as well, prayer intentions, and the daily readings. Lunch on our own, more work until 345, and then an hour of free time. And then Vespers, we start with 15 minutes of the Jesus prayer again, and then in silence, and then Vespers or evening prayer for about an hour. And then dinner. After dinner, we have either recreation or free time or work, depending on just what we need to do. And then from 9 to 9.30, we have Compline, which is night prayer. And we end that by praying, antiphonally chanting a chapter of the Song of Songs.

In our particular community, that's not a normal Compline thing. But again, reclaiming that spousal imagery. I'm not sure if you're allowed to have a favorite book of the bible but that's mine oh it's so beautiful it's so beautiful i think you're gonna have a favorite book of the bible good probably fine okay beautiful is that pretty much every day except sunday when you have divine liturgy like you have divine liturgy once a week or liturgy once a week or yeah we so we typically have divine liturgy um well it's kind of we're in between things right now and obviously with coronavirus things are even more up in the air but we were having divine liturgy basically sun every sunday and then one other day during the

week um and that day changed just based on like what big saints there were and things like that and then the 12 major feasts of the year we'll have liturgy for. That's beautiful. Regarding the Jesus prayer, I was talking to Father Mike Lee and I was saying, you know, I have this kind of prayer rule that I've set myself, you know, in the morning and the evening and things like this. It's nothing heroic. It's quite short. But, you know, he said, well, how's your sort of like the personal quiet prayer going? And I'm like, yeah, don't really do it. Don't really do it. You know? And so it was really good. Cause he, so he's really kind of, uh, pushing me to do that. So

it's, it's so, it's, it's so embarrassing to say in a way, because I mean, I've been at this Jesus thing for how many, 20 years now, I came to our Lord in the year 2000, you know, I was 17 years old in Rome. So anyway, all that is to say that I've been doing 15 minutes of the Jesus prayer a day in silence, you know, like it's, if you're walking, it's so easy to get off a few hundred, you know, but I'm just like sitting and staying there for like, I don't know, 75 Jesus prayers or something. And it's amazing how difficult it is, how arid I am, how chaotic my thoughts are. But in all of that, just sort of bringing that before the Lord. And I love the Jesus prayer for that reason,

because as you know, obviously, but for those who don't watching, it's very rhythmic like using your breath to breathe in praying half of the prayer and out and just become sort of a part of yourself and to be able to sit in silence but that silence doesn't mean you know nothing it's just like this communion with the lord and i was just sitting there the other day and i was just feeling angry and frustrated as i was praying this and i opened up up my eye and I saw like kids' sandals on the floor. Why the bloody kids' sandals here?

Why can't they pick up after themselves? But like bringing all of this, right, to the Lord, like all of it, like it's all good, you know, you are in charge. It's so beautiful. And you all make your own chotkis too, huh? We do, yeah. Yeah. And it's a very beautiful, it's a beautiful prayer for,

for so many occasions, but particularly I find it beautiful for, for transitions. So, so for example, when we, when we pray for 15 minutes before Vespers, it's, it's such an important time for me. Like when we, even when we, if we have something going on that we have to shorten Vespers or something like that, it's never the Jesus prayer that's shortened, which I think is very important because I've just spent this whole day working like crazy. My mind is on full speed. And to enter straight into Vespers would just be very difficult because we we sing all of our prayers and it's very um a priest friend of ours um likes to tease the byzantines and he calls our prayers like a cacophony of noise or something like that but anyways but it is there's it's like being thrown

into a raging ocean and then you just like toss to and fro by the right right so i need to in order to be able to just like catch a couple droplets of of those waves, like I need to be able to calm myself in order to even be able to enter into the prayer. So the Jesus prayer is very helpful for that as well. Yeah, that's beautiful. Very good. Very good. And then how big is your, and here's another question, why do you call them monasteries in the East and not convents? Because we're monastic. So this is, yes, both men's and women's communities in the East are called monasteries. I think this is also just Europe. It might be European. I could be getting this wrong, but it might not just be Eastern Catholics. Like I know a French community, um, who are called a monastery. Um, so I think it's more about being monastic. Um, but I think at this point in, cause wouldn't Carmelites like Western

Roman Carmelites, wouldn't they be called monasteries or no? I don't know. I don't know. I've heard them as I really don't know the difference. Okay. Um, but we're monastic so we're um and we're like male monks basically um so one of our one of our monk friends um says that this is our this is our beard um oh yeah so um is there any what's this what's the symbolic meaning of your of your habit i mean it's black, but what is there to the habit? Is there a belt? Is there a chotki that you wear?

Yeah, there is a belt. Our belt has, and I have a chotki hanging off the side of the belt. This is the chotki on the side of the belt. Is that a thing that your sisters do? Yeah, we do. Your particular monastery? Should that a thing that your sisters do? yeah we do should I stand up? is that weird? you do what you want so you can also see the

hidden earphone string so we have a belt with a three bar cross on the front which you probably can't see in the video, tchotchke on the side and then on the back of the belt we have etched into it um psalm 90 um it's on the back of your belt how you're supposed to remember um well it's also it's in like slavonic or something okay um it's not in english um and some um the let God arise and let his enemies be scattered, whatever that Psalm

is. I'm Catholic. I don't really. I love that prayer, but I don't know it. Yeah. So in the habit itself, so this is a very traditional Eastern monastic habit. So if you, if you see Orthodox nuns today, this is what they'll be wearing. Um, you know, we often get the question of, do you, did you get your habit from the Muslims? Um, and it's like, no, they got their outfit from us. Like ours is, thank you very much. That's right. We're the, we're the real hipsters. Um, we also are vegan for more than half the year.

So we were doing that before it was cool. Um, seriously for fasting religious fasting not yeah yeah yeah anyways so um and then the black is just um symbolic of of death um and slimming too which is that's right that's that's the real reason it's because it's slimming um we do nuns do still struggle with vanity so now one thing yeah one thing that's different in the east of the west that a lot of our western viewers won't realize is that you don't have religious orders in the same way in the east as they do in the west can you explain that yeah sure so um so in the west they're they're developed um i think probably from benedict um uh correct me if i'm

wrong matt but in the west they there developed this um this concept of orders in which people would take the rule of saint benedict or the rule of saint dominic um and so this thus you would get the benedictines the dominicans so on and so forth um franciscans from saint francis um and so on and so forth in the East, this, this same thing didn't develop. You will find, you will find today, um, Eastern orders, but that's, that's not how, um, traditionally things kind of developed. So it, it was more that, um, each monastery would develop their own typicon, which is what we call our rule of life. And they would base it off of what was written by Pacomius or by Basil.

But it wasn't. Each monastery has their own rule. It's not. And they're based off of like our rule is based off of some other Eastern communities that we know. We used it as kind of a starter. But ours is very specific to, again, the spousal imagery. And our monastery started in response to St. John Paul II's Oriental Illumine. And so there are a lot of references to that and theology of the body and things like that.

Beautiful. Well, I've got some questions from our patrons that I wanted to throw your way. I can't vouch for these questions. I haven't actually read them until now. And just to our patrons who asked the questions, I'm not going to read their names in case some of these are very personal and I don't want to kind of out them. This person says, it's a lady, Sister Natalia, what are some good tools for someone who is very scared to be open with God about their struggles and finding their true self in God's eyes? What are some meditations that we can focus on? That's a really great question. I would say, I'm going to answer the two separately. Um, as far as

struggling to be open with him, um, I would say enter into a place where, you know, you're not going to be seen by others. Um, and wherever that may be in your bedroom, in a church that's locked, whatever. Um, and just let down all of the masks. And if it helps alleviate your fear, just remember that he already sees it. Um, you know, I, I, I've said a lot of words to Jesus that I would never say on a podcast, um, particularly expressing anger. Um, on a podcast, um, particularly expressing anger. Um, and because it's like, he knows it anyways. So I might as well just say it and put it out there and shed light on it. Um, and so don't be afraid to show him not because he's, you're showing him something new, but because he already sees it. And so you might as well just, just talk it out. You know, um, it's like the little kid who's, who's caught lying, um, or who's caught stealing,

um, and then tries to lie about it. It's like, we saw you steal. Let's just talk about it. Um, so that's what I would say about, about struggling with being real with him. But then as far as, um, a meditation. So when I, when I first came back to the faith, I, I mentioned that I had this, um, this sort of rupture within me of struggling with, I, I hadn't been a practicing Catholic for years, right? So I had for years built up these horrible habits, living a very stereotypical

college life, making a lot of mistakes. Um, and then when I came back to the faith, I suddenly believed all of these things were wrong and thought I needed to stop doing them. But those habits don't just go away overnight. Right. So then I'm struggling with this tension between I'm doing what St. Paul says I do what I do not want to do. And and the tension there And the tension there caused a lot of self-hatred and a very deep depression. And when I met my spiritual father, he saw this right away, the self-hatred and the depression. And he gave me a very, very simple prayer to pray. And he said, I want you to pray this, you know, every day or every, I don't remember how often he said. And he said, I want you to pray this, you know, every day or every, I don't remember how often he said.

And it's this, Lord, help me to see myself the way that you see me. And so this is what I would give you for a meditation. This is the first of two I'll mention, because as I started praying this prayer, I didn't even believe it. I didn't even mean the words. But simply to say it over and over, I started to actually want it. And I went from wanting to want it to actually wanting it. I wanted to see myself as he sees me. And that really transformed a lot of things in my life. So that's the first thing.

The second thing, what I've been praying a lot with recently, um, which goes back to the struggle of being open to him, um, is pray with Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. Uh, because, because in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus in his humanity was not afraid to say, Lord, let this cup pass. Father, let this cup pass from me. Um, Lord, let this cup pass. Father, let this cup pass from me. But then he ends the prayer with, but not my will, but yours be done. And so we need to be fully transparent with God and then accept whatever it is he's asking of us. That's beautiful. Thank you. This next question comes from a lady who says, do you have any advice for women who experience same-sex attraction and are trying to discern the call in their life and then she says and you can answer this second question first on another note do you drink coffee um coffee every day yeah absolutely yeah i

i've thought about giving up coffee for lent sometimes but then i realized that's actually like putting an additional penance on my sisters, um, not just on myself. And so that's probably not fair. Um, my spiritual father and I have actually been talking about this a lot recently. I wouldn't be surprised if he set you up to ask me that. Um, so anyways, um, yeah, anyways, you shouldn't be addicted to anything. Um, so I'll, I'll go back to the first question though. The second one was easy. The first one's much harder and,

and much more important. Um, coffee is very important though. So two most important things I think are three most important things, I think, are three most important things. Develop your prayer life. This is the most important step in discernment. Discernment is not about trying to figure things out. It's not just about making lists and thinking through things and reasoning through things. It's about increasing your intimacy with the Lord. And I say that, again, not in the pious way, but in a way of we need to have that intimacy in order to see what His will is. I think of it sometimes as like a married couple who have been married for very many years. You know, if you go out to eat, you don't need to ask your

wife, um, necessarily, um, what do you want me to order for you when I go out? Like you, you probably just know by this point. Um, and so it's in developing that relationship or you don't know, and you think, you know, and then you get it wrong and it starts a huge fight, but, um, um, but it's, it's our developing our relationship with God daily in in quote unquote normal life needs to happen in order to then think through those bigger things it's not just like I pray when I have the bigger things so first of all develop your prayer life absolutely second of all have a spiritual director particularly if you're discerning a vocation but really i think this is just a good rule in life um so have a vocation sorry spiritual director

um someone that you you trust someone that is holy um and someone that you can be real with. Um, yes. And then third, an important part of discernment to remember, and, and people often don't realize this in discerning with our monastery is that it's not only your discernment, it's also the discernment of the community. Um, so, you know, when I was, when I was discerning, I'm still technically discerning, but at this point I'm pretty settled. Right. So, but when I was, when I was first here, it was very much, it wasn't just me trying to decide if this is what I wanted. It also was mother and the other nuns, um, praying through and discerning, is this a good fit? Is this what the Lord wants? Um, because ultimately if it's not what God wants, then, then it's not where you should be. What about specifically

though, if a woman has the same sex attraction, right? So I would say with that, and I think that's where a spiritual director, a spiritual director and the community with which you are discerning, um, comes so much into play. Um, because I don't, I don't think I've never, I've never heard the church say that someone with same-sex attraction, um, is not, is not allowed to pursue a monastic vocation. Um, I've never heard the church make that declaration. Um, either way though, this is something I suppose that could be worked out with one spiritual director and the, the monastery in question. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and yeah, I guess I would say just, just talk with specific communities because that's, it's a question that's, that's so hard to discuss on a grand scale

because each community is so different. And it might be very different, for example, if it's a community that's cloistered versus a community that's active. And it might be very different for a community that's small versus a community that's large or anything like that. So yeah, I would say don't be afraid to talk to the communities. Absolutely. And, um, and don't be afraid to talk to your, your spiritual director

about it. Thank you. Mark Adkins says, what's it like living in a community of women? Are there interesting complexities that you can share? Oh, thank you, Mark Ad mark adkins um so there's at least once a month that uh make things pretty difficult um so and you all sync up don't you it's it's pretty horrible pretty amazing women are so much cooler than men at least how their bodies work continue cool that's yeah we just talked about periods on a on a podcast about nuns this is getting real it's getting real um if anyone's wondering nuns do still have periods what um i know it's crazy um so it's it's kind of a um i feel like god kind of played a joke on me in this because when i was in college um i was not at all interested in entering a sorority because I'm like, why would I want to live with a bunch of women?

Women are crazy. I remember telling I had a conversation with my spiritual father one time and I'm talking to him about why I get why I get along so much better with men. And because I just think women are absolutely crazy. And a few minutes later I'm like sobbing in direction I'm just sobbing and he says he says you remember five minutes ago he says he says um I don't I don't really know why you're crying right now I don't either this is what I'm talking about women are crazy um yeah, yeah. So, oh, that's beautiful. It can be hard at times, but it's also the difference between in all seriousness, the difference between being in a monastery and

living in a sorority. Um, although sometimes we refer to ourselves as the alpha omega sorority. Um, but, and between that and living in a sorority in college is that all of these women are striving for holiness, you know? Um, and we're not there yet. Um, you don't become a nun because you're holy, you become a nun because you want to be holy. Um, but we at least can support one another in that. And we know that when we fail and when, when we make mistakes as we do every day, um, the other women are still going to love us. And so the, the relationships that are formed are very beautiful. And, and one of the great gifts is many of the other nuns here, I, I would not have been friends with had I not entered the community.

I would have dismissed them because they're different temperaments than me. They like different things than me. Um, but circumstance has placed us together. Um, God manufactured circumstance. And it, because of that, I have these beautiful, close relationships with women that I would have otherwise never even given a chance to be my friend, you know, and it's just a, it's a great gift. So beautiful. So many of these great questions. Here's one. And this kind of gets back to something we were talking about earlier. Stephen says, any advice for a man whose fiance is a former postulant? Any thoughts on how I can support and love her when she has moments of regret or trouble finding her purpose? Good luck with that, sister. Go. Okay. finding her purpose that's a good luck with that sister go okay um well i guess advice would be

don't be this isn't this isn't what you're going to want to hear steven um but i would say help her and be open to supporting her in rooting out that regret, you know, exploring it and figuring out is this regret a regret that's of the Lord? Or is it a regret that's simply what we were talking about earlier? Yeah, yeah. Seeing the grass that's greener on the other side, because if it's of the Lord, you need to be open to that too just as my discernment is discernment until the day of life profession um he said they're engaged right yeah uh yeah yeah he said fiance yeah um so similarly um yours is discernment until the day of your wedding um and so you need to to be open to loving her enough um it's a good thing to to deal with these things

right now, right? Like, obviously, we're going to have moments of regret, even in marriage. We're going to have temptations that we made the wrong decision. But it sounds like now would be the time to bring all this stuff to the surface. Sure. Yeah. And I would say that if you are married and she's still experiencing regret, I would say to help her to remember that this what is God's will, once I make that commitment, I can now be assured that this is now God's will for me. Um, and so once, once the two of you are married, um, that is his will.

And, and if that helps with the regrets, then. That actually happened to me, like after it was about three years into my marriage i remember having these temptations that i should have been a priest and that i actually like somehow missed the boat and i screwed up and i shouldn't have um and i remember feeling very alone in that because it was a very embarrassing thing to admit because when i would admit it to other people they would look at me with one eyebrow raised as if to say like why would you struggle with that like what is so bad about your marriage and there wasn't my wife's awesome you know um so this just kind of gets back to like being real and just acknowledging these things but yeah it was that realization like i might have

this emotional kind of reaction to where i'm at but but trusting that this is the lord's will yes and and find out what it is. Sorry, I just thought of one more thing. I would say as you're willing to explore that regret with her, find out what it is that she's actually regretting or missing. Because if it's a matter of some aspect of the prayer life, maybe this is something that you need to be developing in your prayer as a couple, or that she needs to be developing in her private prayer, things like that, you know. Yeah. Simon says, I have a sister... Golly, I'm going blind. You'll get there, sister. Just give it five more years. I have a sister who is a faithful Catholic who has considered the consecrated life, but she is frustrated with the church's view of women and thinks that the role of single women, nuns, consecrated virgins, hasn't been well defined or explored by the Church.

For example, an intellectual order that helps discern dogmas and teachings, or an order of women who form checks and balances for the bishop, like St. Catherine of Siena. She is frustrated with her discernment. As a sister, have you found that the church doesn't have a well-defined pathway to encourage and create more influential women like St. Catherine? Wow, that's something that the church is now seeing. I can't really speak to what it's seen in the past, but I think that the church is starting to see particularly the role of spiritual motherhood that women can provide. And I think that this is so important,

uh, because it's, it's actually a tradition. So you mentioned Matt earlier about my life profession, um, would have been, will be the day that, um, that I start being called mother. So the tradition in the East is that every, every nun, when she makes her life profession, starts being called mother. So I'll go from Sister Natalia to Mother Natalia. And so it's not just the Hegimene or the abbess who's called mother, but all of the life professed nuns. And this is the same in Eastern men's monasteries. So life professed monks will be called father, even if they're not a priest or a deacon. And so it's symbolic of our spiritual motherhood and the fruitfulness of our spousal union with Christ. And just as a priest is called father I know that this is something that's seen in our eparchy right now, because our bishop references this and the importance of the spiritual motherhood

that our monastery provides. And so I know at least our bishop has seen it, and I hope that many are, because I think that the problem that we've had, not just in the church, but in the world, in society, is that instead of trying to embrace what women are called to give as women, as mothers and as brides, the mistake has been in trying to give women the same roles as men, right? And to promote sameness between men and women. And to be equal and to have equal dignity does not mean to be the same. And in fact, to be the same would reduce our dignity, because it's taking away what we are called to provide. So, I mean, provide. Yeah, that's such a beautiful point.

Keep going. And I know that there are intellectual communities. I know there are female Dominicans and things like that who are just much smarter than I am. It's definitely the case too that there are Catholic women who have PhDds or their their licentiate degrees uh who are contributing to the fields of philosophy and theology and these sorts of things oh absolutely so it's uh it's a i could see it being a bit of a strange idea to think that

in order to have influence in the church i I have to be a celibate, you know, as a woman, my only, my only option is like celibate sisterhood or something, you know? Sure. Yeah. I, yeah. One of, um, one of my friends here, um, Beth, uh, very beautiful woman. She is, she's a philosophy teacher at the, at the seminary here. Um, so she's helping to teach seminarians, you know? Um, and yeah, so. Oh man. Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay. One more. Well, I've got a thousand questions. I promise I'll let you go soon, but what are your, what are your parents and brothers and sister think about this? Oh, that's a great question. So, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer this one slowly.

You don't have to. No, we, um, so my, my parents, so first of all, my parents, um, I didn't mention this, but after my reversion, just a year or two later, my parents came back to the church. Um, and they're now, they're now very devout. Um, and they even like, I don't know if they're doing this right now, but for a long stretch, they were praying Byzantine matins and vespers every day and things like that. Um, just so, so beautiful. Um, amazing, amazing parents and, um, very moral. They raised me well, but they, um, so they were both not only supportive, but ecstatic, you know, um, and and and proud and all that.

I think they I've seen I've seen my mom struggle with with some things at points. But but she's very proud and very delighted that I'm a nun. And I think that it would have been a much greater struggle for her if she didn't already have grandkids. I'm a nun. And I think that it would have been a much greater struggle for her if she didn't already have grandkids. Um, honestly. So, um, I would imagine it's much harder for, for people who, um, who are only children, um, or whose siblings don't have children yet or things like that. So anyways, um, parents, very supportive. Um, my, my brothers and my sister, none of them, none of them were unsupportive. What's it and my sister none of them none of them were unsupportive what's it like hanging out with you though like do they want to walk around the street with you or so into the shops so um well one of my siblings doesn't really um yeah he and i aren't really

in touch so much right now oh okay yep yeah um but he uh the others but he he also he was the one who when i told him i was becoming a nun you know he says um what who do i need to beat up like what guy broke your heart and i'm like oh man that's not the reason i'm becoming a nun um so he just didn't get it but um yeah you know it's interesting i think my brother my other brother i think he really enjoys being out in public with me. He enjoys getting the look. And I was visiting him in California recently when when you and Cameron helped me find a

place to stay while I was there. And he he and I went for a hike and, you know, someone stopped me while we were hiking and said, good morning, sister, sister you know very excitedly and um and he just like his chest kind of puffed up and i could tell that he was kind of proud and that's beautiful and he very he always calls me sister um and very my parents call me sister natalia and and all of that so yeah that's beautiful um and but then you also kind of look different to what's you know uh you know generally thought of as a nun. So I imagine you probably have a lot of people who look at you and think you look like just maybe you're a Muslim or something.

Yeah, it happens. It happens sometimes. We can never tell how often it happens because, you know, often people just wouldn't say. So we don't always know what people are thinking. I've been surprised with how many people recognize us as nuns. Um, I think part of that might be the Chotki on the belt. Maybe they assume it's a rosary. Um, and, um, but yeah, we have, we have people sometimes who, um, that I think the most common response is people will, will um people will come up to us at the airport

or at the grocery store whatever and they say um what are you and i and i always want to respond a human being what are you a rude human being um but uh no but i i understand the curiosity and it's it's more amusing than anything but um and is this thing weird is this thing that you wear around your neck like it comes up quite high here up to your chin i mean yes it's totally it's up to the chin is that uncomfortable it's actually very comfortable um it's a very very soft material and it's it's much more comfortable than um the first stage of formation is called a dokimos, um, which is Greek for maybe one who desires to learn or something like that. I don't know. It's, it's all Greek to me, but, um, the, that was a really stupid joke. You can edit that out if you want. Anyways. So, um, but the dokimos, that first stage, we were like a head scarf that just, um um like goes like this and then ties behind our head um and that one's much more uncomfortable because it's like on the ears and um yeah so and

we do have exercise habits that we can wear um when we exercise so beautiful well this has been so great i i have definitely felt your maternal affection for me sister so has my wife just occasionally when you text us out of the blue to tell us you're praying for us there's been a few times that i've been in this kind of particular place and your texts with your advice a particular time has like nearly brought me to tears so thank you for your for your motherhood and and and saying yes to our blessed lord and thank you for agreeing to come on the show to share with us today. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. And then just about your monastery, how can people sort of, do y'all have a website that

people can look up if they want to learn more about your monastery? Yeah, our website is christthebridegroom.org. Our email address, same thing, christthebridegroom at gmail.com. Um, make sure you have the two T's in there. Um, cause otherwise you're sending it to Christ, he bridegroom or Chris, the bridegroom,

um, the bridegroom.org. You said, yes, I'm looking at that. I love. And how many, um,

women are in your monastery? There are six of us. None. you guys are so beautiful. Are you just looking at our website? Yeah, I'm going to show everybody here. You can do that? Yeah, right now people are looking at y'all.

Whoa, that's so crazy. I'm kind of like a wizard. That's fancy. Man, y'all are so beautiful. And we have a seventh nun with us right now who's visiting from Ukraine for a year or two. Oh, that's cool. Now, I believe Teresa of Avila didn't want her convents to be larger than nine. Do y'all have a set limit? We don't have an exact limit, but we

would never, we're of the mindset that the monasteries should be, yeah, smaller and more family style. So we would never have probably more than maybe 15 or 20 in one community. So once we got to, I don't know, maybe 12 ish or something, 10 or 12, we would send a couple to start a new community. Um, and they would be autonomous. So they would, um, they would write their own typical on that rule of life I was talking about. Um, and you know, be in contact for support and all of that. But eventually they would be a standalone thing. That's beautiful. Okay, well, thank you very much.

My wife just texted me and she said, me and the four kids outside Texas when you're done. I'm at my house right now. So I should probably go. I'll tell them I said hello. I will. Okay, well, God bless and thanks so much. All right, thanks, Matt.

Okay, thank you very much for watching. I hope this was a helpful episode and I hope that you'll share it because it really does help get the word out. I want to say thank you to all of our sponsors, patrons rather, who make this show happen. We are trying to release a Pints with Aquinas Español channel in which we pay voice actors to professionally dub Pints with Aquinas clips in Spanish so that we can reach out better to our Spanish friends. And so I'm really excited about that. We're doing that.

We're doing a bunch of other things that I'll be telling you about soon. So you should consider, just bloody well consider becoming a patron. Patreon.com slash Matt Fred. You don't have to, obviously, but if you want to, if you believe in what we're trying to do here and you want to get a bunch of free stuff in return, like check

this out. Let's just go through this together, shall we? You give 10 bucks a month to us here at Pints with Aquinas. We will send you a signed copy of my book, Marian Consecration. I'll put a Pints with Aquinas sticker in it so you can put it on your laptop so everyone knows you're cool. You'll get regular video reflections from me, and they are private just to patrons. You get post-show wrap-up footage from Pints with Aquinas episodes that nobody else gets access to, so me and the guests just kind of get even more real than we do in the shows. You get access to an ever-growing library of audiobooks, such as papal encyclicals, works by Thomas Aquinas, and interviews with philosophers, converts, theologians that other people don't get access to. You also get access to our book studies. We just did a big book study with our patrons

on the divine comedy, on Flannery O'Connor. We just are currently actually in the, right now we're doing one on the great books of Western civilization. And that's pretty bloody good. So check that out. They're videos put together by like legit people

who are kind of experts in these areas. And they're video courses and the professor is with you in the comment section chatting with all of us. Anyway, you get a bunch of free stuff. So just think about it, okay?

That's all I'm saying. Patreon.com slash Matt Fred. You can go now. Show's over. Go on. Get out.