Pints With Aquinas - 43: Isn't it foolish to believe in what you cannot see?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 43. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today we'll say to St. Thomas, look, isn't it rather foolish to believe in what you can't see? In other words, isn't faith a foolish endeavor? Thank you for joining us here at Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. I want to thank everybody who has supported the show. Maybe you've written a review on iTunes. Some of you have begun to donate to help the show continue. Thank you very much for that. If you're listening and you'd like

Starting point is 00:01:05 to do that, go to pintswithaquinas.com, click the Patreon banner, and you can start supporting the show for as little as two bucks a month. Huge, huge, huge thanks to those who have done that. And thanks to everyone who's written to me over Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. I got a review recently on Pints with Aquinas that I had to share because it made my day. Whenever I get affirming reviews from Protestants or atheists, it always makes my day. And this one is from a Lutheran pastor. If you're listening, I think your name is Reverend Ryan Roehrig, if I got that right. That's at least your iTunes name.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Thank you so very much for taking the time to leave this review. It meant a lot. Here's what you said. I am a Lutheran pastor in the Missouri Synod, and I cannot say enough about how much I enjoy Matt's discussion of Thomas and makes him incredibly approachable. His piety is very much appreciated, and his love for the body of Christ is probably the only thing that can match it. As a Protestant, it has been very helpful for me to help solidify my views of Luther. Mayor Culper. He continues, he continues, but also to understand Thomas and the Catholic church much better. And then he says in parentheses, see episode 36, great episode. That is, let's see here, that was the episode on the Hail Mary.

Starting point is 00:02:37 Wow, that's awesome that you listened to that, thanks. You continue, this is something I would recommend to everyone. Even as a Lutheran, I think it is safe to say Aquinas is one of the greatest minds the church has ever seen. Thank you very much, Matt, for your work, not only on this podcast, but in the church as well. Pax Domini. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that, Ryan. And a huge thanks to all of those who listen to Pints with Aquinas who aren't Catholic. Look, all of us can stand to benefit from the wisdom of the angelic doctor. And so,

Starting point is 00:03:12 you are so welcome. And no matter what you believe or what your background is, what your worldview is, thank you so much for tuning in. You know, since the advent of the new atheism, it's become rather popular to say that faith is absurd. Why do I say popular since the advent of the new atheism? faith, theology, philosophical thought about the existence of God with a mere hand wave and patronizing slurs. Thank God, I think we're beginning to move away from that. I know many atheists, maybe not personally, but I've heard of them and read them who seriously wish to distance themselves with people like Richard Dawkins, who wrote The God Delusion. And so, it seems that more and more atheists, at least this is what I encounter, maybe you're encountering something different. It seems to me more and more theists and atheists

Starting point is 00:04:18 are able to sit down and have a discussion, you know, without resorting to name calling. discussion, you know, without resorting to name calling. But it is certainly something that people say that faith is foolish and so Aquinas addresses this. Now, I'm not reading from the Summa Theologiae today. Rather, I'm going to be reading from the Aquinas Catechism. This is a book published by Sophia Press, and it is a series of sermons which Aquinas gave. And he gives us four reasons to think that faith is not absurd, believing in what we cannot see is not absurd. And so, that's what we want to read today and see if we have any commentary on that. All right, so let's see. He says, faith is not foolish. That's the header. But someone might object, says St. Thomas, that it is foolish to believe what is not seen, and that one should not believe what one does not see. I reply that this difficulty disappears if we consider the following points. Number one,

Starting point is 00:05:30 our intelligence is imperfect. I love how humble that admission is, by the way. Our intelligence is imperfect. I mean, my goodness, anyone who has the slightest degree of self-knowledge must recognize that they very often hold the things that are false, that they used to think were true, and maybe they actually believe something's false and then later on see that it wasn't false. I mean, this happens not just in huge philosophical matters, but in everyday matters. Did I take the garbage out? Yes, I'm convinced I took the garbage out. Oh, look at that.

Starting point is 00:06:10 I didn't take the garbage out, right? So we should be humble and recognize that our intelligence is imperfect. Aquinas says, if we were able by ourselves to know perfectly all things visible and invisible, it would be foolish for us to believe what we do not see. But our knowledge is so imperfect that no philosopher has ever been able to discover perfectly the nature of a single fly. We are told that a certain philosopher spent 30 years in solitude in the endeavor to know the nature of the bee. If our intelligence is so weak, it is not foolish to be willing to believe about

Starting point is 00:06:59 God only what we are able to find out by ourselves alone. In fact, this is condemned by the words of Job, behold, God is great, exceeding our knowledge. The second reason faith is not silly or absurd or foolish is that our knowledge is limited. So, the first point was that our intelligence is imperfect. The second is that our knowledge is limited. He says, another reason why faith is not foolish concerns expertise. If an expert were to make a statement in his own particular branch of knowledge, an uneducated person would be a fool if he contradicted the expert for no other reason than that he could not understand what the expert had said. Now, without a doubt, the intelligence of an angel surpasses that of the greatest philosopher far more than the intelligence of the philosopher surpasses that of an ignoramus.

Starting point is 00:08:07 Therefore, a philosopher is a fool to disbelieve what an angel says, and a much greater fool if he disbelieves what God says. He is condemned in the words of Ecclesiasticus 3.25, says. He is condemned in the words of Ecclesiasticus 3.25, many things are shown to thee above the understanding of men. Don't you love how practical St. Thomas Aquinas is? I mean, suppose somebody gets up and starts talking about, you know, like modern cosmology and they're an expert in their field. And let's say I don't understand it. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. I would be a fool. And Aquinas is saying, you would be so much more a fool to disbelieve what the angels and infinitely more what God has revealed than an ignoramus, such as myself, who might disagree with a cosmologist just because I don't understand what he's saying. The third reason he gives is this, because life in this world would be

Starting point is 00:09:13 altogether impossible if one were only to believe what one sees. Okay, say that again. Life in this world would be altogether impossible if one were only to believe what one sees. How can one live without believing others? How is a man to believe that so-and-so is his father? Man has to believe others in matters that he cannot know perfectly by himself. to believe others in matters that he cannot know perfectly by himself. Now, no one is to be believed as much as God is. Thus, those who will not believe the statements of faith are not wise, but foolish and proud. As the apostle says, he is proud knowing point, you know. I've shared this a couple of times. Maybe you haven't heard me say it, but let me say it again. When I was a teenager, I went through this period in which I thought that perhaps I was the only person that existed.

Starting point is 00:10:29 Now, I didn't know there was a big fancy philosophical term for this position at the time called solipsism. And I certainly didn't accept it, but I was tempted to accept it. And I was scared that it was true. You know, I would shut my door at night. I was scared that it was true. I would shut my door at night, and I remember sometimes quickly reopening the door, just in case the outside of that door had disappeared, and I would catch it. I wasn't sure if my friends existed when we left to our homes. I remember sharing with a good friend of mine, Gareth, God bless him, in the school library. I said, look, I'm not sure you exist. And he said to me, Matt, I do exist. I promise. He was rather worried about me. And I said,

Starting point is 00:11:09 well, that is what you would say if you didn't exist, you know. And my point was, you know, maybe I'm just, and I didn't formulate it like this at the time, but maybe all I am is a brain in a vat of chemicals being stimulated by a supercomputer to give me, what I think me is, namely my brain, experiences. Okay? So just like my brain right now, certain things are going on in my brain as I sit here in front of this microphone and record this podcast. Well, maybe a supercomputer is doing that and that nothing else exists. And yet, brothers and sisters, I am justified to believe that the external world exists based on my immediate experience of it. This is what we call proper basicality or properly basic belief.

Starting point is 00:12:10 In other words, even though I may not be able to prove with a syllogism or scientifically that the external world is real, that doesn't mean I'm not justified in thinking that it is real. Okay? Unless you can give me a good reason that it isn't real, I can go on believing it and that's just fine. Well, the same thing is true with personal testimony. Suppose I started to doubt that my wife was who she claimed to be Maybe she's a Russian spy Suppose you said to me, do you think that she is? And I said, well no, she's not a bloody Russian spy Well how do you know?

Starting point is 00:12:36 Don't you think that's what husbands of Russian spies probably think? You see what I'm saying? Now the point is, life would be unbearable, impossible, if we were only to believe what we see and can even prove. I accept that my wife is who she claimed to be based on her testimony, okay? And so much more reliable is God. And so we are justified in believing him through his testimony, even when we can't fully understand the ins and outs of how it all works. And this is true, isn't it? I mean, we might think of things like prayer. Like what is prayer? I remember after my conversion, wondering if I had to pray out loud for God to hear me.

Starting point is 00:13:28 And I thought, well, that's kind of silly. And I thought, well, if it's silly, how does he hear my thoughts? It didn't seem to make sense. Or I remember, and again, my non-Catholic listeners, you'll get a kick out of this. Catholics, before we pray, we make the sign of the cross, which is something you should do too, by the way. It doesn't have to be a distinctly Catholic thing. It can be just a beautiful thing to do. Why not trace your body with the cross of Christ? How could that not be a beautiful thing? But I remember after my conversion, I was 17. I would make the sign of the cross very solemnly in the morning and then make it finally at night. And that was my way of signing in and signing out. finally at night. And that was my way of signing in and signing out. Now that sounds stupid and it kind of makes you think, well, how does this prayer thing even work? And you can think about

Starting point is 00:14:11 it and go, I don't know, maybe this just doesn't kind of make sense. I don't really fully understand it. But again, to recognize number one, our intelligence is imperfect. Number two, our knowledge is limited. And number one, this life, this world would be altogether impossible to live in if we were only to believe what we see and what we fully comprehend. That doesn't mean that faith contradicts reason. It doesn't. Faith and reason cannot contradict because they flow from the same source. But, you know, we may have questions about a particular element of our faith and it doesn't contradict it, right? It doesn't contradict reason. But if God says it, well,

Starting point is 00:14:59 that can be a good enough reason for believing it. In fact, it's the best reason. Fourthly, because, says Thomas, God's miracles prove the truth of the things which faith teaches. Thus, if a king sends a letter to which he had attached his seal, no one will dare say this letter was not written by the king's orders. Now, it is plain that whatever the saints have believed and handed down to us concerning Namely, the miracles by which Christ confirmed the doctrine of the apostles and of other saints. And if anyone says that nobody has seen those miracles done, I reply that it is a well-known fact related in pagan histories that the whole world worshipped idols and persecuted the Christian faith, yet now behold all, the wise, the noble, the rich, the powerful, and the great, have been converted by the words of a few simple poor men who preached Christ.

Starting point is 00:16:17 Now, was that a miracle or was it not? If it was, then you have what you asked for. If you say it was not a miracle, then I say that you could not have a greater miracle than the conversion of the whole world without miracles, and we need seek no further. Accordingly, no one should doubt about the faith, and we should believe what is of faith even more than the things that we see since man's sight may be deceived whereas god's knowledge is never at fault love it can we

Starting point is 00:16:55 just man i love aquinas high five high five i don't know who i'm high-fiving i'm high-fiving you listener quick put your hand up high five aqufive. Aquinas is the bomb, man. He sounds like Chesterton there. He sounds like Peter Kreeft. I got to read it again. This is what I love about Aquinas. You know how sometimes people will give you an answer to a question, but it feels so unsatisfactory? In my opinion, that never is the case with St. Thomas Aquinas. He sees every possible objection and kind of disarms it along the way. Let's listen to what he has to say again. First, he says, well, look, we have the miracles. And then he realizes someone will say, well, we weren't around to see them. And so he says, well, if anyone says that nobody has seen those miracles done, I reply that it's a well-known fact related

Starting point is 00:17:41 in pagan histories that the whole world worshipped idols and persecuted the Christian faith. Yet now, behold, all have been converted by the words of a few simple poor men who preached Christ. And then he gives you a dilemma. Okay. So was this a miracle or wasn't it? Those are your only two options. If you say that it was, then all right, shut up. You've got what you asked for, a miracle. Now, if you say, well, no, I don't think that was a miracle, then he says, then I say that you could not have a greater miracle than the conversion of the whole world without miracles. And we need seek no further. Accordingly, no one should doubt about the faith and we should believe what is of faith even more than the things that we see, since man's sight may be deceived, whereas God's knowledge is never at fault.

Starting point is 00:18:33 So that's all the time we have today on Pints with Aquinas. I want to ask a couple of things of you and see if you will do it. I'd be honored if you would. want to ask a couple of things of you and see if you will do it. I'd be honored if you would. The first is, if you can support the show for as little as $2 a month, go to pintswithaquinas.com and click the big Patreon banner, and you'll see the different thank you gifts I'd like to give you for supporting the show. Secondly, maybe you can't support the show financially, but hey, maybe you can rate us on iTunes. What's cool about that, by the way, is that it comes up higher in the search engine on iTunes. At least that's that, by the way, is that it comes up higher in the search engine on iTunes. At least that's what people more intelligent than me tell me. And since I'm not an expert and

Starting point is 00:19:10 recognize that my knowledge is fallible, I accept what they're saying. So go rate us on iTunes and please just share the podcast. I really do pray that I'm not just blowing hot air here. I know there's a million other podcasts you should be, could be listening to rather, and it's my hope that this will not only stimulate your intellect, but lead you to a more deep, beautiful, and profound relationship with our blessed Lord. If this doesn't do that, then I'm wasting my time. God bless you.

Pints With Aquinas - 43: Isn't it foolish to believe in what you cannot see?

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