Pints With Aquinas - 51: How do I love and forgive my enemies?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 51. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today we will ask St. Thomas, how am I to love my enemies? Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. I love today's question because it's a really practical one. It reminds, well, it made me think of this, you know, if we're having pints with Aquinas, right, let's say you show up, pull up a barstool, start chatting with the angelic doctor, you might begin by asking him some theoretical questions, right? Some deep, heady philosophical

Starting point is 00:01:02 questions. And maybe you do that for a number of reasons one you want to show him that you can keep up that you're smart that you're educated blah blah blah you know so does god exist is his essence the same as his existence but eventually maybe after the second beer you know you lighten up a little bit and you trust thomas aquinas and then you ask him this really serious question you know you say uh Thomas, I've got this friend who betrayed me and we haven't spoken in years. Or my dad was really bad to me and I hate him for it. Or I had a boss who treated me really poorly and I can't stand to even think of him. him? Am I required to love these people? And Aquinas, very beautifully, I'm sure, and very sensitively will answer this question for us. So, in today's episode, that's what we'll do.

Starting point is 00:01:56 Should we love our enemies? You already know that the answer is yes, but what does that mean? What does that love look like? What doesn't it look like? And then I'd like to talk about some myths about forgiveness, and essentially showing you what forgiveness isn't, thereby showing us what forgiveness is. When I think of people who've hurt me in my past, like you, I can think of a lot of people. And I know I haven't fully healed from those relationships because when I think of them, all of this anxiety rises up within me. And even like anger, not righteous anger, you know, and that righteous anger is when you want justice to be brought about because of the harm someone has done.

Starting point is 00:02:49 But it's sort of like, I just, I want vengeance, you know. And I think it's important that we don't pretend we don't have that. You know, when you read the Psalms, David's pretty explicit and pretty unashamed when he feels vengeance and these sorts of things. Even though it's not a perfect emotion, it is where he's at and it might be where you're at, it might be where I'm at. And so it's important to acknowledge rather than to pretend that we're past these things. Only then can we bring our true heart and feelings to our Lord and begin to experience healing from it. Now, I remember I used to work at a place called Woolworths. If you live in Australia, you probably know what Woolworths is. It's called

Starting point is 00:03:31 different things in different states, but essentially it's a grocery store. And that was my first job. I was a checkout boy. And also I was the guy who collected the trolleys. I'd often work from 4pm to midnight after school. But one day I was working in a certain part of the grocery store. I won't say which part, just in case, I want to protect this person's identity. And I said something which I thought was seemingly harmless. And the boss or the supervisor was infuriated, like infuriated. And I didn't say anything offensive, but he took it to be offensive. I didn't swear. I wasn't vulgar, anything like that. He got really red in the face and he said, come with me very gruffly and loudly in front of other employees. And he walked me back to the staff room. And as he did, he called over another supervisor so he could be a witness. And he pulled me into a room and he stood about three inches away from me and

Starting point is 00:04:38 he shouted at me. And I was so humiliated and afraid and I really didn't know how to respond. It's funny when bad stuff happens to you, you know, afterwards you think, oh, well, if that happened to me again, you know, like, well, let's think about it. If that happened to me again, I think I would have just put my hand in front of me and said to him, I'm sorry, you may not speak to me like this. Calm down. And once you've calmed down, then I'd be happy to have this discussion with you. I can tell that you're angry. And if I've done something wrong, I'm certainly willing to apologize for it, but you may not speak to me like this. Okay. But of course, at the time, we don't always think of these things. And I was really caught off guard. And I think he may have

Starting point is 00:05:20 been even like spitting a little bit. He was like yelling, screaming at me. And I was just like, okay, all right, I'm sorry. I remember walking out of that room and everybody in the staff room was like kind of really awkward. They were very silent. And I just, you know, I just got screamed at. Now, I wouldn't consider this person my enemy. Certainly, they're not interested in me now. They probably don't even think about me. They're not looking to tarnish my reputation or destroy me or my livelihood in any way. But at the time, it felt like he was an enemy. And in a sense, he was. And now I find it difficult to forgive him. And maybe there's people in my life right now who don't just not like me, and it's fine if people don't like me, but maybe they're

Starting point is 00:06:14 going out of their way to, as I say, tarnish my reputation or destroy me or my livelihood or my family in some way. And maybe that's true for you too. How on earth are we to love our enemies? Well, in the second part of the second part of the Summa Theologica, question 25, article 8, Aquinas says that when we talk about loving our enemies, we can think of that in three different senses. Okay. And so here's what he says. Love of one's enemies may be understood in three ways. First, as though we were to love our enemies as such. In other words, when Aquinas says as such, he means in as much as they are our enemies, or to use a philosophical term, qua enemies, which just means as such.

Starting point is 00:07:02 But this, says Aquinas, is perverse and contrary to charity, since it implies love of that which is evil in another. So going back to that story I told you a moment ago with that supervisor, if at that time, or shortly after, I said to you, no, I love that about him. And I love that in him. That's just perverse, actually. What that deserves is condemnation. So you shouldn't love your enemy in as much as they are your enemy. All right. So let's look at this second and third way. Aquinas says, secondly, love of one's enemies may mean that we love them as to their nature, but in general. And in this sense, charity requires that we should love our enemies, namely that in loving God and our neighbor, we should not exclude our enemies from the love given to

Starting point is 00:07:59 our neighbor in general. Now, thirdly, and this is where the rubber hits the road, love of one's enemies may be considered as specially directed to them. Namely, that we should have a special movement of love towards our enemies. Charity does not require this absolutely because it does not require that we should have a special movement of love to every individual man, since this would be impossible. That makes sense, doesn't it? If love means to will the good of the other, then you cannot absolutely love every man, by which we mean man and a woman, because it's just not possible. Number one, you don't know every man. And two, you don't have the sort of neurological capacity, I think, to meet, know, will the good for every man that there is. Aquinas continues, nevertheless, charity does

Starting point is 00:09:00 require this in respect to our being prepared in mind, namely that we should be ready to love our enemies individually if the necessity were to occur. That man should actually do so and love his enemy for God's sake without it being necessary for him to do so belongs to the perfection of charity. For since man loves his neighbor out of charity, for God's sake, the more he loves God, the more does he put enmities aside and show love towards his neighbor. And listen to this. I love this one line that Aquinas throws out. He says, thus, if we loved a certain man very much, we would love his children, though they were unfriendly towards us. Have to say that again. If we loved a certain man very much, we would love his children,

Starting point is 00:09:53 though they were unfriendly towards us. This is the sense in which Aquinas speaks in the passage quoted in the first objection, the reply to which is therefore evident. I will go through those objections in a moment. But I love that line. I want to focus on that for a moment. If you have a very good friend and you love them, they've done you great kindness, or you've experienced a lot together and you care for this person and you want what's good for this person, then you will necessarily love their children. Well, maybe not necessarily, but that is typically what ends up happening. Now, it might be important here to pause for a moment and ask what we mean by love. Certainly, love doesn't mean warm, fuzzy feelings. And it's probably has been the cause of many divorces, right? That people have been sold this lie that love means to feel happy. Or there was that old ridiculous saying

Starting point is 00:10:59 that love means never having to say you're sorry. Yeah, okay, good. Ask anyone who's been married happily for more than 48 hours if that's true. No, no, no, no, no. Love means having to say you're sorry and sometimes every single day. All right. So it doesn't mean these warm, fuzzy feelings, but it does mean wanting the good of another. Wanting the good of the other. Now, the objections that Aquinas sets himself essentially boil down to this,

Starting point is 00:11:31 that it's irrational to love what is hateful in another. And Aquinas agrees with that. And that's what he touches upon in that first point of what is meant by love of enemies. So yeah, we shouldn't love what is hateful in another, but we should love the other. He gets to this in the second objection. Let me read it. He says, charity, this is the objection, charity does not do away with nature. For everything, even an irrational being naturally hates its contrary, as a lamb hates a wolf and water fire. naturally hates its contrary, as a lamb hates a wolf and water fire. Therefore, charity does not make us love our enemies. Aquinas responds by saying, yes, essentially, yes, you're right.

Starting point is 00:12:13 Everything naturally hates its contrary as such. Now, our enemies are contrary to us as enemies or qua enemies. Wherefore, this itself should be hateful to us, for their enmity should displease us. In other words, it would be weird and wrong if their enmity pleased us. They are not, however, contrary to us as men and capable of happiness, and it is as such that we are bound to love them. So to love another is to will their good and to seek to bring that good about whenever it's reasonable. These people were made for the beatific vision. We should want that good for them and we should not want their harm. That said, sometimes love for one's enemies will involve a desire for their punishment, for their discipline.

Starting point is 00:13:16 If one of your family members is severely harmed by another, your love for them does not mean that you do not want them punished. An example, I have a family member, a distant family member, who was sexually abused at a her 20s. This person's father, whether or not he would have said he loved this perpetrator, certainly wanted justice, and he ought to want justice. And let's say you said to this father, do you love this perpetrator? He might say, no, I hate his guts. But if he were then to say, by God's grace, and through reading Thomas Aquinas, that he, okay, I love this perpetrator. What he doesn't mean is I love the sin. What he doesn't mean is I don't want this person brought to justice. No, no, no, no. Love requires him wanting that this person be brought to justice because justice being served is actually what is good for this other person. It would be evil to not want justice brought about because justice will bring about the good.

Starting point is 00:14:48 will bring about this, the good. If I want justice out of pure vengeance, right, or spitefulness, well, then this will be evil. But justice is a good thing. And so, loving our enemies does not mean not wanting them brought to justice. Think of Judas. Perhaps we could argue that he committed the greatest evil ever. He facilitated the torture and execution of God himself. And yet when Christ encounters him in the garden of Gethsemane, what does he say? Friend. That wasn't a sarcastic jab. Jesus actually saw him and wanted his good and called him friend. That wasn't a sarcastic jab. Jesus actually saw him and wanted his good and called him friend. I want to say something here, a bit of a side note. Sometimes you and I have been hurt by people in the church. Maybe you're listening and maybe you were raised Catholic, but you abandoned the

Starting point is 00:15:42 Catholic faith or maybe abandoned is too strong of a word. You felt pushed out or you just left. Sometimes we see the example of people who claim to be Catholics and we think, gosh, if that's a Catholic, I want nothing to do with it. And maybe it's even the example of priests or bishops who have hurt us, right? Maybe we've read stories of popes who have acted like just nothing short of villainous. Consider Judas. Judas was chosen by Christ to be one of the twelve. He was one of the first bishops in the church. if you were to witness this action on behalf of Judas, you might be tempted to just abandon this church that Christ had established on Peter. But as my friend Tim Staples has said, you don't abandon Peter because of Judas. He goes on to say, you don't even abandon Peter

Starting point is 00:16:42 because of Peter. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, I'd like to say, you don't even abandon Peter because of Peter. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, I'd like to share with you several things that forgiveness is not and what forgiveness is. If Pints with Aquinas has helped you and you'd like to support the show, well, you can now do that. Go to pintswithaquinas.com and click the big Patreon banner up the top. By supporting the show, even for as little as $2 a month, which amounts to 50 cents an episode, you'll get some neat thank you gifts. Gifts include things like a free Pints with Aquinas sticker posted to your front

Starting point is 00:17:20 door, access to an ever-growing library of exclusive, in-depth interviews between me and philosophers, converts, and apologists, a new e-book that I've written on Aquinas' metaphysical jargon, and another one of the gifts is perhaps me interviewing you for Pints with Aquinas. Look, there's other gifts as well. I won't go into them all here. And the thing is, I know that people don't support the show just to get a sticker or an ebook or more audio content. People support the show because they actually appreciate it. And I appreciate you appreciating it. I don't want this show just to continue. I want it to go from good to great. And I'm honored by your support. Again, go to pintswithaquinas.com and click the Patreon banner to learn more.

Starting point is 00:18:07 Okay, welcome back to the show. Let's take a look at some myths about forgiveness. So, maybe there's someone in your life who has done you great harm in the past or is trying to do you great harm now. We've already talked about what it means to love these people. Let's talk a little bit about forgiving these people. There are some myths about forgiveness. I think one is that forgiveness means forgetting, right? But the truth is that forgiveness, when you forgive another person, you don't thereby destroy your memory. Think of this man that I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast who pulled me into an office and shouted at me. When I think of that event, I have all these sorts of emotions that

Starting point is 00:18:57 bubble up within me, a flood of memories that are related to that hurt. That does not mean I haven't forgiven him. It just means that I'm a human and healing takes time. The fact is, forgiveness is a decision. It doesn't destroy memory. A second myth about forgiveness is that if I forgive someone, Second myth about forgiveness is that if I forgive someone, then that means I should trust them. No, it doesn't. Just because you've made the decision to forgive somebody, that doesn't mean that that automatically restores trust. Forgiveness shouldn't be earned, but trust should be. Forgiveness shouldn't be earned, but trust should be. Forgiveness shouldn't be earned.

Starting point is 00:19:49 This is something we're commanded by Christ to give. Commanded, not strongly suggested. Commanded. But trust, to trust someone without any reason, that's just foolish. Okay. A third myth about forgiveness is that it will always result in reconciliation. Now, sometimes people, and I don't know where I stand on this, but some people define forgiveness as when two people reconcile and forgive whatever had happened. But sometimes that isn't really the case, right? I mean, think of Christ dying on the cross. He said, forgive them father for they know not what they do. Well,

Starting point is 00:20:32 that didn't necessarily result in the reconciliation of those who were killing Christ. And likewise, just because you choose to forgive somebody in charity, that doesn't mean that they will reciprocate, nor does it mean that the relationship will be restored. Think of a wife who is married to someone who is very abusive. Well, that woman should get out of that situation immediately, and that might mean civilly divorcing this individual. immediately. And that might mean civilly divorcing this individual. Now, by the way, civilly divorcing, that isn't the same thing as saying the marriage wasn't valid. Of course, if the marriage was valid, then divorce is impossible. But I just mean, legally speaking, it might be within the best interest and the right thing to do that this woman distanced herself from this abuser. Now, suppose they get together and they reckon, not reconcile, they get together

Starting point is 00:21:32 and she's ready to forgive him, right? That doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship will be restored, okay? So, that doesn't mean you haven't forgiven them though. So, that doesn't mean you haven't forgiven. Forgiven them, though. Now, we've already said it, but let's say it again. Forgiveness is a decision. Forgiveness means deciding to forgive, to quote C.S. Lewis, the unforgivable in another, because Christ has forgiven the unforgivable in you. because Christ has forgiven the unforgivable in you.

Starting point is 00:22:11 Now, forgiveness isn't necessarily a one-time event. Sometimes, or perhaps very often, it's continuous. Because we'll have these negative feelings that come up. It's not like you make a decision to forgive somebody, and then you never have any negative feelings towards this person. No, you might continue to have feelings like, I cannot believe that person did that to me, or I'm not going to apologize, you know, unless he apologizes first, you know? So, we have to forgive. We have to forgive, and maybe continuously. And in a sense, we do that, don't we? Every time we pray the Our Father, the Lord's Prayer, we ask that the Lord will forgive those who have trespassed

Starting point is 00:22:54 against us. So, my prayer for you is that you would know the love of God and that by His grace, you will be moved to forgive those who have hurt you and that you would seek the forgiveness of those you have hurt. I was in adoration about four years ago now, and the Lord brought to my memory several people in my high school who I was an absolute jerk to. Absolute jerk. I made fun of them. I said really cruel things to them and about them. Just horrendous stuff. Well, the nice thing about the internet age is it's not too difficult to get in touch with people. So, I found these individuals online and I then wrote to them. And I just said, what I did to you was wrong. It was wicked and I have no excuse. I was insecure. I was trying to make myself feel better and I did that at your expense. but I am asking your forgiveness.

Starting point is 00:24:05 And I just want you to know that I'm so sorry that I did that to you. We can't force another to forgive us, but we can at least make amends in that sense. So those are my prayers for you, that you would forgive those who have hurt you and that you would seek the forgiveness of those you have hurt and that you do that this week. Let's conclude with the Lord's Prayer. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Amen. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Starting point is 00:24:48 Amen. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, amen. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Pints with Aquinas. I hope that these episodes don't just bless your intellect in that they strengthen it in regards to the faith, but they also feed your soul. Do me a favor. Please rate, if you haven't already, Pints with Aquinas on iTunes. And again, like I mentioned earlier, please consider

Starting point is 00:25:11 becoming a supporter of Pints with Aquinas. You would go to pintswithaquinas.com and click the big Patreon banner in order to do that. Thanks carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you To carry you, to carry you To carry you

Pints With Aquinas - 51: How do I love and forgive my enemies?

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