Pints With Aquinas - 56.5: Is porn harmful? Matt Fradd vs. Charlottee Rose and Adam Scarborough

Episode Date: May 15, 2017

In this podcast I share a recent radio debate I participated in on the topic, is pornography harmful? After the podcast I share my reflections on the debate. --- HUGE THANKS to the following Patrons: Tom Dickson, Jack Buss, Sean McNicholl, Jed Florstat, Daniel Szafran, Phillip Hadden Katie Kuchar, Phillipe Ortiz, Russell T Potee, Sarah Jacob, Fernando Enrile   Support Pints With Aquinas: https://www.patreon.com/pwa   --- If you haven't subscribed to Unbelieveable?, you can learn more about it here: https://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable

Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 56.5. I'm Matt Fradd. Today we'll be doing something a little different. I want to share with y'all a debate that I recently participated in. It was a radio debate on the topic of pornography, and I engaged with... I don't want to say debate, because it wasn't so much a formal debate where we each got 20 minutes, you know, five minute rebuttals and so forth. But it was certainly a sort of adversarial situation in which I put forth my case and they disagreed. And then I disagreed with why they disagreed and so on and so forth. I chatted with one lady called Charlotte Rose, who is, I believe, a prostitute and a stripper. I'm not really sure. Apologies if I got that wrong. But anyway, she says she's a sexual freedom campaigner. I also interviewed...

No, I didn't interview. I debated Adam Scarborough of the campaign against censorship. So here's what I want to do in today's podcast. I want to play that debate for you, not the entirety of it, but a good chunk of it. If you would like to listen to the full debate, I would strongly suggest that you go to Unbelievable. Justin Briley is the host. He's fantastic. The show's fantastic. If you haven't yet subscribed to that podcast, you should. I'll put a link in the show notes of this podcast so you can check that out. But here's what I want to do. I want to play this debate and then I would like to give some concluding thoughts as to how I did, how well they did, what I wish I had have said better, and those sorts of things.

Aquinas is the champion at not attacking straw men. He takes his opponent's arguments, he takes what's good, he rejects what is false. And certainly I didn't do that perfectly, but I hope this debate shows that I did my best to copy Aquinas in that regard. Okay, here we go. Welcome back to Pints with Aquinas. Really excited to get into this debate. But before I do, I want to thank all of you who are supporting me on Patreon. It means so much. You've probably noticed the new logo we have. We're just about to launch the new website, pintswithaquinas.com. We're actually creating these comic strips as well, where Aquinas basically refutes people in a pub. And I just want to say you guys are the best. And I'm so honored that you believe in this work that I'm doing and that you're willing to support it if you haven't yet supported it i want to invite you to

do that you can support the show for as little as two dollars a month and you can see the different thank you gifts that i give you in return for supporting the show like an ever-growing exclusive audio library that just you will have access to um Stickers, books sent to your door, all sorts of stuff. So go to patreon.com slash PWA for Pines with Aquinas. I'll put it up in the show notes and there you can support the show. Okay, so here's the debate and remember to stay tuned to the very end of the podcast because there I'm going to break down the debate and give some commentary on how I feel it went.

Here we go. It's great to have you on, Matt. Many people may know you for your role in apologetics from a Catholic perspective, but this book that you've written, it's not really coming, as far as you're concerned, from a religious perspective, is it? That's right. It's a non-religious response to pro-pornography arguments. I think that over the last, I'd say, 20 or 30 years, there's been a lot of research coming out of academia that gives us good reason to think that pornography consumption is detrimental to the consumer, to our relationships, and to society, and that there actually isn't really good reason to think that it's healthy for society.

And so, I travel and speak to about 50,000 to 70,000 people every year on this topic. I never imagined that I'd be doing this. I always joke my mom's really proud of me. But it's a real delight. It's been wonderful to be able to journey alongside men and women who might say they're addicted to this stuff and want to stop. So, my approach is definitely not a shame-based one. It's basically trying to invite people to live the sort of life that they want to and not to let pornography stand in the way. Well, it's great to have you on the program today, Matt. Where did this particular interest

in writing on this particular subject come from for you? Yeah. So, porn is something I dealt with as a kid, like many kids. I remember, you know, as an eight-year-old kid, this was before the time of the internet, if you wanted porn, you had to find a friend's dad, you know, who hid it in his closet. And I remember, you know, at the time, you'd say to your friend, you know, your dad's so cool. But as we got older, you know, looking back, I don't know if it really was that cool to sort of masturbate to women pretending to like you, that sort of thing. And so, even though I looked at pornography a lot, I never felt terrifically, you know, proud

of having done it. And it wasn't until about the age of 17 that I put in a good effort to try and stop it. I didn't like the negative effects I was seeing that it was having in my own life, in my ability to create in my most cherished relationships. And so just started speaking out about it because I found a significant degree of freedom from it. And yeah, just started talking about it to other people. And obviously, there's a lot of interest in it. So I've been doing that ever since. It's a less taboo subject than it once was, partially because it is so widespread now, the use of pornography, its availability online, and so on. I mean, do you have any information on how the statistics are in terms of usage among Christians as well?

Because you might say, oh, Christians, you'd expect not to be using pornography. But I guess a lot of Christians, just as you did, struggled with using it. Yeah, well, certainly, you know, studies show that religious people use pornography, or at least say they use pornography far less than those who aren't religious. But certainly, you know, Christian men and women look at pornography. And so when people ask me if I speak at a, you know, Catholic university or something, why are you preaching to the choir? I like to tell them, well, the choir't a religious issue. This is a, I just want a more beautiful life. I want a more fulfilling sex life or something issue. And so I know plenty of atheists and others who run significant websites talking out about it.

It's been interesting to see that some, you know, unlikely voices have come up recently on this front. People like Russell Brand and Pamela Anderson, you know, former obviously of Baywatch and Playboy, Pinup and so on. Not the most obvious voices, but people who've actually spoken out against the tide. I think Russell Brand compared it to a filthy icebergs floating through your house sort of thing. Why do you think that's happening in that regard? Right. Yeah. James Hetfield, actually, lead singer of Metallica, is also narrating an anti-porn documentary. I think it's because of the explosion of internet porn. I mean, since the advent of tube sites around 2006, a lot of people are beginning to speak out about the detrimental effects that it's having in their life. And I

think perhaps the reluctance to speak out about it up until now has been just the fact that like no one is saying we want to go back to a puritarian era where the sight of a woman's ankle could cause scandal. That's ridiculous, right? The problem with porn isn't that it shows too much. The problem with porn, I would say, is that it shows far too little of the human person, right? That it reduces a person to a sort of two-dimensional thing to be consumed. So, the problem isn't sex. Sex is good. Sexual desire is good. If it wasn't, you couldn't make it ugly. That's an interesting perspective. Thank you for joining us today, Matt. And because I'm not usually for the program, we've actually got two voices who are going to be debating this with you today on the program. me introduce the first of them adam scarborough from the campaign against censorship um adam

thank you for joining me yes pleasure to be here today could you briefly explain what the campaign against censorship is yeah first of all just say to matt congratulations on his book i did have a brief look at it it's very well well researched book and it doesn't come across as ostensibly a religious publication i was looking for little God quotes now and again but I didn't actually see it. So you have stayed away from religion to be fair to you and there's a number of case studies in there. I've had a little look at it but not too much. But yeah, what's our

case? The CAC, the Campaign Against Censorship basically stands for the right for consenting adults to see and view what they want to see as opposed to what the state wants us to see. We never wanted want to see as opposed to what the state wants us to see um we never wanted you know a wonderful british writer george orwell we never wanted to see 1984 arrive unfortunately now with the advent of the investigatory powers acts and the digital

economies bill it has and uh and what we're worried about is this creeping repression toward a totalitarian state we believe individuals should be the right not to see something is just as important as the right to see something um and what's your view of the rise of pornography as on the internet i mean do you kind of welcome that in terms of you know as in a neutral sense you know it's up to people whether they access it or yeah i mean what do i think i mean i know the internet has been a massive game changer in people's attitudes towards censorship and with the i think i understand 90 of the internet is pornography i believe matt may know more about that than me but um i think um sex is a very very powerful drive and and um it's it's i think there

has to be provision made for sexuality. I mean, being a former soldier myself, I was stationed in various locations. The guys found ways of enjoying themselves and finding a means for their reproductive urges, shall we say. But I think to suppress sexuality is very wrong. But as far as children are concerned on the Internet, I think, you know, there is a thing called parental control. I think, you know, there is a thing called parental control and it should be down to parents again, as opposed to the state to decide what their parents, what their children can and cannot see. Let me come to our guest on the phone now, Charlotte. Charlotte, thank you for joining me.

You've you're a colourful person. And I will just remind all of our contributors on the programme today, we are broadcasting at a daytime hour. We're not post watershed. So we'll just bear that in mind in terms of the how graphic we are when it comes to discussing the subject matter today. But Charlotte, you've been involved alongside people like Adam in campaigning against censorship. And indeed, you welcome adults expressing their sexuality through pornography or other means. You don't want to see anyone clamping down in this particular area. You know, I've also been in a documentary with Russell Brand,

which was Love to Sail, which was with Rupert Everett in 2014. And I think the unfortunate thing is, like Russell Brand, when you become an addict, as it were, what he encoded himself as, they become the worse when it comes to reformed smokers, or reformed addicts in that sense. He doesn't give you that opportunity to be able to see it in both sides.

I think that what Matt is saying, and what Adam is saying, has got absolute massive relevance. But the understanding of what we've gone through in history is all about education. When we as a society have been taught to look at sex as a procreative attitude and nothing more, people will want to be able to explore sexual desire and exploration within their own bodies. And if there is no other material or educational point of view out there other than pornography, where could people go to to find that education?

This is the unfortunate thing, is if we're not looking at sex as a desire, as a natural, normal form of sexual expression, then that education that we can relate to is not out there. The only thing that's being created is pornography, and that's the only choice that people have to go to to be able to watch it. So in that sense, are you saying,otte that you it's not a good thing that there is so much porn that that is the thing that many young people for instance are likely to encounter more than if

you like more rounded views of sexuality no i'm not saying that it's a bad thing i'm not saying it's a good thing either i think that if you're addicted to cakes and there's a hundred different cakes out there for you to choose from, which one do you go for? I think it doesn't matter which one's more dangerous or which one's more harmful or which one's got better ingredients for you. It's about the education that comes behind it. This is the thing that there is a lack of education

of looking at sex as a sexual expression rather than just teaching people about sex as procreation and that's it i think the sex is a wonderful thing and i think people should be enjoying it more but and this is the thing it all comes down to choice providing consensual it doesn't harm a third party nobody has the right to choose what people are doing behind closed doors but we do have a right to supply education to be able to allow people to make those choices for themselves and if they're dictated by a victorial state that that's what's allowed to be shown online and what's not then that choice has been taken away

from them so how on earth can they learn what's right and wrong in their own opinion well i don't want our conversation necessarily to focus too much around the censorship issue per se because in a sense i think matt sees that as yeah an issue that does need to be addressed but for you matt i believe it's more about the the ultimate sort of question of whether the porn is harmful to society is it um ultimately something that we need to be wary of and and so on i mean what do you say to that that particular argument it's just about people's free choice in terms of what they want to consume as consenting adults. I sympathize with a lot of what Charlotte and Adam had to say there. We live in a global economy, right? Porn is consumed in every nation on the planet. The fact is that national laws, judicial systems, regulatory agencies move a lot slower than

technology. I have no brilliant ideas about how to change that, nor am I that interested in doing it. I think a conversation can be had about whether or not governments choose to regulate pornography use. I think an argument can be made. But, you know, in my opinion, as I say, I can sympathize with Adam in saying that some versions of these, of censoring pornography that I've heard of, sound like prohibition laws in America back in the 1920s, which would unnecessarily turn, you know, relatively normal citizens into, you know, criminals. Okay, so I get that. But that said, before we even decide whether or not we should speak out against pornography, you know, maybe it's not a matter of censorship, maybe it's about educating people that it leads to negative effects. Well, before we can have that conversation,

we have to ask, well, is it harmful at all? And it turns out that it is. There are currently 33 neuroscience-based studies on porn users. Every one of them supports the addiction model. And this has led to an increase in porn-induced erectile dysfunction. And again, I want to make it clear, this isn't something that Christians are talking about. These are people like Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler, who's the clinical urologist at Harvard Medical School, Norman Doidge, who wrote The Brain That Changes Itself. There are literally tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of stories of men online who say, I cannot get an erection when I'm with my girlfriend, when I'm with my wife, but when I'm with porn, I can. We should take that seriously. The other way it affects us is that it warps our sexual tastes. There was a study done in 2012 of

nofap users, which is a non-religious online forum, has about 200,000 members. And many of them said, it was over around 60%, said that their sexual tastes became increasingly extreme or deviant. And you might be thinking, well, maybe they're just discovering who they really are and what their sexuality really is. Well, that's not true because when they took time away from pornography, they found that their sexual tastes kind of went back to the way they were before. So, that's how it's affecting us individually. I wanted to kind of come back on this issue of the science because I think this is a fascinating area. Do you want to give us a very

brief summary of what's going on neurologically when people view pornography and why that inhibits ultimately or kind of gives this i think it's almost like a law of diminishing returns in terms of what they then find arousing just in in terms of normal sexual interactions right so you know doctors and scientists used to think that in order for something to be addictive it had to be a substance that you put into your body, like nicotine, alcohol, and whatever. But since neuroscientists started looking into the brain, it's changed how we understand addiction, right? What we now know is that it's not necessarily just about what we put into our bodies or how it got there, but what reactions it triggers in the brain. And so, the fact is, behaviors that are addictive or drugs

that are addictive, in order for them to be addictive, what they must do is boost a neurotransmitter in the brain called dopamine in the reward center of the brain. And what we're discovering is when people consume pornography compulsively, that this leads to a downgrading. Dopamine begins to shrink, and then the nucleus accumbens, that's the name of the reward center, is now in a state of dopamine craving. Because of this, people find they need to use more pornography and often more deviant or what they would consider harder forms of pornography just to boost the dopamine levels up enough just to feel even. One more thing I want to say. In 2014, a study came out of the Max Planck Institute in Germany,

that's sort of the Harvard of Germany in Berlin. Simone Kuhn, the lead neuroscientist researcher, and her team were able to show that there was a correlation between the amount of porn people used and shrinkage in the brain, right? So, these people that they studied on weren't self-declared addicts. They said they used pornography moderately, and yet it was having this negative effect on the brain. So, it leads to desensitization and this feeling within the person, okay, I need to be viewing much more just to feel even. It's as if we've reset the pleasure thermostat in our brain. Yeah, it's an interesting analogy. Okay, let me bring in my other guest, Adam.

What do you want to say? I mean, the science appears to speak for itself that viewing pornography has this addictive effect and that ultimately it means that people find it actually harder to have, if you like, normal sexual relations outside of a pornographic. I did try and have a look at some of Matt's case studies in his book very briefly. And I appreciate there will always be people that find something addictive or obsessional in all ways. But I do. I'm a great believer that people can be self-regulatory.

And, you know, in philosophy, they say the wise man is the one who knows his own limitations. And I think we should all know our own limitations. And if what you're saying is true, Matt, then surely 90% of the population would have shrinking brains. I mean, dopamine, yes, dopamine does exist. I think some of the antipsychotic medication medication that psychiatry that suppresses the dopamine levels cannabis is known to be a dopamine antagonist I won't get off the subject here but to say that you've got to have a blanket ban on pornography because of a few individuals that have problems yet and I don't want to deny those people the help that they deserve they rightfully

deserve this is I think too much time in front of a computer looking at anything can be detrimental to one's health um for your eyesight etc um but there will always be an exception to the norm if you know what i mean and you you don't see this as the norm then um as far as you're concerned not at all i mean i know only a friend of mine she knows her children was um you know unobtrusively looked at the pornography. But she said to me recently that at least I know what sexuality, how my children are sexually inclined. I mean, how far would Matt take it? I mean, children are given sexual education lessons at school, which involve sexual imagery and pictures of male and female genitalia. and pictures of male and female genitalia.

Are you saying that all children are subject to sex education are also deranged in some way or have shrinking brains? Matt, do you want to come back on that? Oh, yeah. No, not at all. I actually think that you and I, Adam, are probably in more agreement than you think.

I'm not talking about censorship. I'm not denying that people can do whatever they want. Of course, people can do whatever they want. Of course people can do whatever they want. What I'm saying is that it's prudent before engaging in a behavior that might have detrimental effects that one have the most information at their disposal. I know you would agree with that. I know Charlotte would as well. But certainly one can educate children about sex, the goodness of their bodies, right, and these sorts of things. I don't consider that pornographic. All I'm saying is if there's good reason to think

that pornography is detrimental to us and to our relationships, right? Studies have shown that even moderate use of vanilla porn leads people to think less of their partner's affection, physical appearance, sexual performance. All I'm saying is that people have a right to know that. So yeah, that's it. Let me come to Charlotte before we have to go to a break. Charlotte, what's your take on all this? I mean, you obviously have seen a lot of men yourself, and do you find that they are having difficulty being aroused outside of pornography if they're they're using it you know i have a i have a complete mixture i mean what we've got to look

at is the sense of is society not understanding the differences between the reality side of sex and the fantasy side of sex the fantasy side of sex has been been drummed onto the Internet that's easily accessible, whereas the reality side of sex is not something that is so accessible because it doesn't get the numbers of viewers when it comes to pornography online. I think we've all got some valuable points to this conversation overall, but the biggest picture is whether anything is bad for you or detrimental to your health. Life is detrimental to your health. Life is detrimental to your health. Everything causes different issues within our bodies, cancer, different ailments and such.

It's about understanding that level of what is deemed as normal and what can be deemed as harmful. and what can be deemed as harmful. Again, going back to the point of, you know, it's actually cheaper for you to eat unhealthy than it is for you to maintain a healthy lifestyle because it's what advertisers or creators are able to get monies from. What's that bigger value? And pornography is. There aren't many people out there that offer an understanding of reality, fantasy,

than there is just fantasy that could be deemed as hardcore. This is the problem. When you look at what everybody's been saying about education, it's not education that we're understanding about the human bodies for identities, diversities, and fantasies. We're learning about how to procreate, and that's it. There is no such thing as what goes into a sex education class of different tools, of toys that can be used within the bedroom. It's not. Boy has penis, girl has vagina, and this is how you procreate. There is nothing on the lines of understanding the different elements of sexual fantasy,

sexual arousal that needs to be able to be given for these people to be able to make a choice. And if the only element for them to be able to see something that's different outside of school is pornography, that's where they'll go. So your view is not that we should, in any way, censor pornography. We should simply give young people more information about what the reality is give them a choice to be able to make that decision for themselves because if those if that education is not out there how how do people learn whether what's good what i mean should should we i think how much should they do i do you think then those who are producing pornography should

as it were put health warnings on their material to say this may detrimentally impact your sexual ability? It's not their responsibility to do that as a provider. It wouldn't. But you have to look at what does pornography actually do? And they do do this. They do put information onto their films. And they do do this. They do put information onto their films.

Good ethical pornographers will put information on there to say, number one, that everything that is within this content of this video has been consensually approved. No harm was caused to any of the producers or any of the performers. And I think that's ethical. And I like that. I like the fact that if I am watching pornography online, it is of hardcore nature,

that I know that everything was consensual and nothing is deemed unnatural. And I'm happy with that. It's not about that. It's not about the pornographers, because at the end of the day, the pornographers are the people out there, are the only ones that are fighting to ensure age-facilitation processes are on those websites. The government's not doing that. The pornographers are doing that, which shows that they are caring towards the youth of the community. But we're not on about that. What we're on about is giving people an opportunity to be able to have that education and knowledge out there

to make up their own mind. I mean, Charlotte's saying there, as far as she's concerned, as long as it's done ethically, I mean, Charlotte saying that as far as she's concerned, as long as it's done ethically, you know, she approves of the use of, you know, she prefers if people are going to use it to have these ones that are in some way ethically sourced. It says that there was no harm done in the making of this and so on. And what's your view on that? Because presumably from your point of view, it's not just about consenting adults. Presumably you believe the problem goes a bit deeper than that. I do. I do think that one can make a non-religious argument against pornography. I clearly think that pornography is in and of itself immoral. I'd be happy to talk about that if you want. The reason

I'm speaking about the effects of pornography is I think that people have a right to know about them, The reason I'm speaking about the effects of pornography is I think that people have a right to know about them, and it usually moves people a great deal. This idea of ethical pornography, to me, it's somewhat of an oxymoron. In 2007, there was a study done in which 304 sex scenes of the most popular pornographic DVDs were reviewed. And what they found in this study was an incredible amount of physical aggression and verbal aggression. There was actually an act of physical aggression, such as slapping, choking, hair pulling, verbal aggression, every minute and a half. Now, Charlotte wants to say, well, it's okay because they both consent to it. And I certainly agree that that's part of it. We don't want people being forced to

do things they don't want to do, obviously. But the idea that someone can consent to being degraded like that and that that somehow makes it okay, I disagree. I think that being cool with being degraded doesn't make being degraded any more cool. I mean, suppose you met somebody who was okay being part of different, say, little racist videos where they were the butt of the joke. And they say, well, they found this liberating. People should be able to do what they want, you know, and don't take yourself so seriously. We might say to them, I get that you're saying you find this liberating, but I think that you're wrong too. I don't think you ought to be treated like that. Secondly, I want to respond to Charlotte's

point. She seems to think that our only options are we look at hardcore porn or people just aren't getting taught about sex. And I think that's nonsense. I think parents have a duty to teach their children about the beauty of sex. Now, when my wife and I got married, we saved sex until our wedding night. And what a beautiful thing now that we have the rest of our lives to learn how to please each other and to enjoy this sexual embrace,

which is such a good thing. We don't have to turn our eyes away from each other, okay, onto a screen to watch actors pretending to enjoy sex. Many of these actors, I think it would be fair to say, have suffered a degree of trauma in their childhood, might be having different diseases. No, I don't want to do that. I just want to look at my wife. I think she's enough for me. I think this is the sort of relationship people have a right to, that they want to have. And very often we become jaded and think, well, that kind of love isn't possible.

So I'm just going to settle for pornography. Let's bring Charlotte in because obviously you were addressing. Yes, please. Go ahead. I mean, a few different things to pick up there, Charlotte. Go ahead. I think that was actually awful what Matt just said. And for a start, porn stars are not diseased.

Secondly, we're not all into a point of view about sex that we wait till our wedding night to have sex. The majority of children of today have already lost their virginity before they're in long-term relationships. So that's quite Arcadian. That's very, very ancient times. But I do appreciate other people's traditions. But to say that porn performers have all been abused, this is the actual, this is the unfortunate thing about the way that society sees sex workers as performers. They always see us very 2D,

which is either very tragic or very glamorous. Very tragic in the sense that we've been abused, we've been abused and that's the only reason why we can do this job. And I find that anybody that says that is absolutely degrading to any sex worker or performer out there. I know many performers out there who absolutely love being in film because that's their choice to do so. When it comes to being choking or being spanked or being snatched, there are many thousands of people out there that enjoy different kinks within their bedrooms of sex. It does not mean that somebody else may agree to it,

but who are you to decide what is norm and what is not norm? There's no such thing. This is a great thing about being individual for people's personal preference when it comes to the bedroom. The normative element to it is very, very sad. And to think that everybody who's been abused that ends up in porn is awful.

And I don't know how much more I can do with this conversation because my throat is absolutely killing me. So I'm just going to sit on the backburn on this for a little bit and I'm going to let Adam carry on. Yeah, OK. We'll let Adam take over a bit. I know you're joining us with some tonsillitis at the moment. I won't take much time. Go ahead, okay. We'll let Adam take over a bit. I know you're joining us with some tonsillitis at the moment. I won't take much time. Go ahead, Matt.

Charlotte, I appreciate what you're saying, and I actually agree with what you're saying. I didn't say that all sex workers have been sexually abused or molested or abandoned as children. And so I agree with you. To make a blanket statement like that would be irresponsible at best. OK, I don't want to take up too much time. I know Adam wants to respond, but I'd like to pick up on that thread afterwards. I mean, do you want to just respond before Adam comes back to the fact that obviously Charlotte's saying there as well, that as far as she's concerned, you're entitled to your view that sex is best saved till marriage, Matt. But everyone else, you know, she described it as archaic, actually, because kids are having, you know, sexual encounters well before they're into it.

Notice that I didn't say my wife and I hadn't had sex until marriage. I mean, it's not like we were virgins. Like, I had slept around. I did stuff. But when I met her, I thought she was worth the wait. And that was my personal preference. I accept that that's not Charlotte's and that's fine. And she also said that she respects others' traditions. And so I appreciate that. I don't feel attacked at all in that. I did mention about many performers suffering from some kind of disease. And that's actually a quote from Dr. Sharon Mitchell, who's the founder of the Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation, right? She says that 66% of porn stars have herpes. I'm not sure we need a lot of stats to convince us of that. If we're having sex with multiple people for our job,

what are the chances we aren't going to be struggling with different sorts of diseases? And it didn't say all women. Now, what about women who might have suffered some serious form of abuse or neglect when they were younger. Certainly not all women not making that argument, but many women do. Pamela Anderson just came out, spoke about being sexually abused. Jenna Jameson talks about being gang raped in high school. Bella Knox, the Duke University porn performer, speaks about being a rape victim, an ex-cutter. We can go on and on. All I'm saying is when I speak with women who've been in the sex industry or when I listen to them after they get out, that very often they do talk about this sort of story. It's drearily predictable. Is it all women? No, but I think it is a lot. And I think we should recognize that

that might be one of the factors that led them into porn. But I do think that even if somebody wasn't abused, they've had a lovely childhood and they just choose this. This is my opinion. And I grant that Charlotte's going to disagree. Maybe Adam as well. That's fine. But I think it's actually a manful thing to treat a woman who has forgotten her dignity with dignity nonetheless. Let's come back to Adam and then I'm sure Charlotte will want to weigh in again in the course of the program. Yeah. i can say i mean my mum being a former bunny girl my mum was one of the original bunny girls in the 60s and she looks back on her modeling days and and the playboy mansion you know with a great degree of pride um she's got some of the photographs um

but i'm glad matt does admit that sex does exist, you know, because it's a very powerful urge. I mean, but having said that, Adam, I mean, the bunny girl thing, it was a kind of a different age. And if you don't, in a sense, somewhat more innocent, if you can grade these things. Well, yeah, maybe innocent. Yeah. You know, she did other things as well. But but it was how can I start the first start of the porn genre, if you like. And pornography, let me make it clear, porn, like the term prostitute, are two very, very emotive words.

I prefer the term, I think, erotography, and for prostitutes, I think it was the term sex worker. And to concur with Charlotte, I do have a great degree of sympathy for women, particularly streetwalkers. I think 140 have been killed over the last 10 years, and I find this very, very very sad they should be given respect they shouldn't be treated in any punitive fashion but to get back to what matt was saying and charlotte um the maslow the psychologist um has admitted in his triangle of needs that sex is at the top it's it's there with food and water and shelter it is

a need um and and as i say most people are self-regulatory you know if they look at um uh pornography two times a day they'll probably put it down and pick up shakespeare they know when enough is enough um and getting back to the psychological effects of pornography as matt you know went overboard on this um especially in some of his case studies in his book um i've i've looked at some of the kinsey studies um sexual studies and it said actually masturbation when it comes to i know this is a family show so i apologize for using that word um you know when it comes to intensity of orgasm masturbation cannot be excelled um whether it leads to an exacerbation of dopamine levels not i've never heard that one before but i think we should also look at some of the case studies that matt has provided for us and to find out what sort of

background those people came from whether it's a guilt i mean background one of the things you're saying or i'm picking up from you there adam is is the idea that um it you know everyone has sex drives and this is just one way in which it can be released for for certain people you talked about your comrades in the army, and obviously they were using pornography as part of that, you know, in an environment where they didn't have their partners around or whatever. I think to say they used it, they would probably say they studied it. They just studied it.

I've only studied it myself. I haven't actually used it. But regardless, I mean, the point being that for you, that's a legitimate thing. That's just a way of dealing with the natural urges that you have. Well, I'd compare it to what Desmond Morris said in his book, The Naked Ape. I think he referred to these things like smoking as a displacement activity. He went on to say something about anti-explorational behavior. As animals, we really like, and I know Christians don't necessarily see us as animals,

but we like to be on the savannas. But all this is really a form of anti-explorational behavior. And yes, masturbation and pornography does enhance the experience. Okay, Matt, what about the argument that it's just an outlet? It's just a way, you know, that people are naturally going to be looking for this stuff anyway. So just, you know, go ahead. Well, I mean, Adam said that sex is a need. He said like shelter, food, and water, but that's clearly not true. If you don't have sex, you're not going to die. But if you don't have food, water, or shelter, you very well may. So, I grant sexual desire is a beautiful thing, right? It should propel us to make a gift of ourselves. But what pornography does is it

actually, we don't end up making a gift of ourselves. We end up kind of reverting back into ourselves. I think one of the most sex positive things a person can do is quit pornography because there's nothing sex positive about masturbating to images of women pretending to like you. There's nothing about retreating into the bathroom or to the bedroom to masturbate to porn. And a lot of people are beginning to recognize this. They're quitting porn not because they hate sex or because they think it's bad or dirty, but they're quitting porn precisely because they want to have a meaningful sex life, which pornography is robbing from them. We should point out, too, that when I talk about sexual dysfunction, and by the way, this study was a study that came out of Cambridge, right? So, again, these are legitimate

studies that are coming out of legitimate universities that showed around 60% of those said they could get an erection with porn, not without it, but also women who aren't able to have the same kind of climax because of the pornography they've been consuming. So again, I think if you want to be sex positive, quit porn. If you want to be sexually dissatisfied, then continue looking at porn because apparently that's the way to do it. Okay. I'll bring you in if your voice allows now, Charlotte, to respond to this. What do you want to say? I think that with Matt's studies that he's been getting the information from,

I think it's fantastic that there is information out there. But it would be very interesting to find out how many participants were into those studies and also the ratio between men and women. Because one of the things that we keep forgetting about is it's not just men that watch porn, but females too. And I think that considering if Cambridge has done a study on 200 people yet there's over a million people in the world watching pornography I think there's plenty of room for more studies to come for in the future

I think this just comes back straight back down to the simple element right at the beginning is if people have only got one way to be able to view something that's in the privacy of their own home which is pornography which may be deemed as hardcore that's the genre that's the genre that we're talking about obviously um then people then people are going to do whatever whatever is is seen in front of them i think that if we're offering more education to children and there's more education available online to give those people that choices, like what Matt said, this is what's been happening with this percentage of people, then we should be made aware of it. I think that if you are feeling, I'm a sexual trainer, I do lots of work with men with erectile dysfunction and also premature ejaculation.

And a lot of it is not deemed pornography. It's actually done to a psychology of where something has happened in their past that was detrimental to them growing up with their own self-confidence. So, you know, my studies have actually been with hands-on people, over 1,200 people I've dealt with in the past seven years for erectile dysfunction and premature ejaculation. And out of that, I think I've only ever come across nine people that have had any difference that's been caused from porn addiction as it were if it was that what about we're not talking about that well i did want to bring up something else that matt raised earlier and we didn't really get to which is his contention that there's a sense in which exposure to pornography and the fact that if you like to recreate the kind of dopamine levels means that people end up searching more and

more kind of gratuitous hardcore stuff and i'm guessing even more taboo stuff matt i don't know if you want to talk to this and then i'll bring charlotte back on but are you saying that there's a link actually between consensual adult pornography and child pornography uh well i appreciate what charlotte just brought up having to say about how many people are being interviewed and these sorts of things. One study that happened in – I mentioned it earlier from NOFAP. There were 1,500 people in the survey, right? Almost 60 percent said or agreed with the statement that their sexual desires had become increasingly deviant and that when they stopped looking at porn, they were able to, you know, they no longer desired that sort of thing. Charlotte also used the analogy of junk food a while back.

I think that's a good analogy. I think if people become accustomed to junk food, they can't imagine how you could possibly eat healthy and be happy. They might say it's archaic, right? But if someone who is looking at pornography pornography they might say the same thing how would you possibly live your life without masturbating to pornography well i do live my life like that and i'm actually really happy and a lot of people view pornography like that they see it as sexual junk food that's kind of ruining their sexual template their sexual relationships and quit it and in the beginning they might think, this is really hard. How could you do this? But eventually, they come to appreciate

living a life where they don't spend hours on end every day looking at pornography. Well, you do have a chapter in your book that talks about the link between pornography and child pornography. Do you think there is a kind of a sort of, yeah, a slippery slope of some kind. Well, I do think that. I mean, do we really think that there's someone out there, perhaps, say, 25 years old, right? They've never seen pornography. And one day they wake up and they think to themselves, you know what I'd like to look

at today? You know, insert weird fetish here. I don't think that's how it happens. I think what happens is people begin to watch pornography and then this old stuff doesn't do it for them anymore. What they have to do is view increasingly shocking pornography because, of course, shock and anxiety actually boost dopamine. It boosts sexual arousal. And they end up looking at things that perhaps a year ago may have made them frightened or nauseous, but today it's the only thing that can get them off.

So I do think that very often that it's a slippery slope, as you say. Let me, do you want to respond to that, Charlotte? There's many, many, many people in this world. And it's like reading the star sign that I'm a Virgo. And if I read it this week, it may be attentive to my needs. But then the next week, it may not. I think that there's many different people with different perceptions of the way that they see things. And as long as we're providing informative information for them to be able to make their mind up, then, you know, we can't speak for

everybody, but we can just support people as they go. Charlotte seems very open to the evidence, which I want to commend her for, right? She's saying, okay, well, maybe we should look at these studies. People have a right to education. I think that's fantastic. So, can I just ask a question to Charlotte? Charlotte, if what I'm saying is true, if studies are showing that pornography can lead to addiction, sexual dysfunction, if it can lead to a breakdown in relationships, would you be open to going where the science points and saying, okay, you know, pornography can be detrimental and we should warn people about that or not? I think, do you know what the thing is? Is it, unfortunately, I can't equip myself with that, with that, with answering that particular question because I'm not educated enough in the studies that goes against what you say. And I know that there are,

and if Jerry Barnett, for example, from Sex and Censorship was here, and maybe Adam could tell you differently, there are actually probably just as many studies that go against the studies that you've had. So the only thing I can do is look at it as a human element, a humanistic approach to it, that providing that we are open to the yes and to the no, then it's our choice to make that decision about the factor that happens in our lives and that's the only way i can go let me bring in adam adam are you aware of any studies that um go against what matt's talking about i think there's probably a number i'm not sure

whether it was a kins report but i think there was a study which actually said uh you know to contrast what matt was saying that actually masturbation does actually prepare you for sex and your penis wouldn't actually be right for sex if you didn't masturbate so as charlotte rightfully says there are studies out there that which will support that but can i just say this that what matt's saying is a bit of it in a way it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy because he's saying that pornography is wrong as a premise premise this in itself will promote guilt to anyone who studies or sees pornography. So it's a little bit of a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

But the other thing here is, Matt mentioned being married, yes, and I'm sure a union of two people is very beautiful, but relationships and marriage of that kind aren't for everyone. And Charlotte will agree with me here that many people that use sex workers and probably pornography are in fact disabled people who who have no other avenue for their desires i mean are we saying that we should fill them with this guilt trip that they shouldn't look at porn anymore and i will agree with matt you know if it stays at that level of just looking at you know purely isolationist purely isolationist looking at nothing

else then it maybe could be dangerous but there are many other things that are also isolationist looking at nothing else then it maybe could be dangerous but there are many other things that are also isolationist isolation in itself is is not a nice thing no man is an island but i do feel matt that you're you're moralizing on other people's behalf really without their consent because for every negative out there you probably will find the positive um and as i say there is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy in there as well um let me toss it back to matt then matt i mean a couple of things there firstly um i think adam references there may be some studies which show that you know masturbation and so on not necessarily a bad thing um and that and also yeah he raises this issue of what are

those who don't have recourse to a marriage like you have, this might be their only way of expressing their sexuality. Right, thanks. Well, first of all, and I grant, right, this isn't an actual debate. So, I'm certainly not expecting Charlotte or Adam to come prepared to this sort of conversation with studies in hand, okay? So, I'm not expecting that. But I do want to say that I actually have looked at the research. I've just written a whole book about it. I have a whole chapter on masturbation, which actually argues against those who say that it's, you know, healthy, actually shows that it can correlate with things like anxiety and these sorts of things. So, it's not enough just to throw out something that you've heard.

You actually have to show the data behind it or else, you know, maybe it's just something that we've heard, but it isn't actually true after all. Now, the idea that if people, porn's their only outlet. Again, we're treating sex like it's a need. And certainly, sexual desire is important and it's strong. But it's not like our only options are, I have to repress, repress, repress, or engage in internet pornography. To me, that's like saying our only options are, we have to be gluttons or we have to be anorexic. It's like, no, maybe there's a third option. Maybe we shouldn't be so binary about it. And I think there is a third option. I think it's what we would call sexual health. Regarding the self-fulfilling prophecy, Adam seems to be saying, Matt, you're coming at this from a moral perspective and maybe that somehow, you know, shapes the way you look at this thing. Well, maybe it does,

right? I mean, that might be somewhat of an ad hominem attack, though, to say, because you're a Christian, you have this particular view about pornography, therefore, your argument is invalid. But you'll notice that I've actually referenced 33 neurological studies. I've referenced a Cambridge study that came out in 2014. Another study, 2015, peer-reviewed research study, analyzed 22 different studies from seven different countries and showed that there is little doubt that on average those who consume porn are more likely to hold attitudes of sexual aggression and so forth. So, again, fine, right? Like maybe I'm just obsessed about sex. Maybe I'm repressed.

Maybe I'm moralistic. I don't think that for a second. But even if I was, that's not an argument against the sorts of studies that we're seeing coming out of academia. We're going to go to a quick break, folks, and then we'll be just back for five or 10 minutes to conclude today's show. We'll hear again from Charlotte. That's one of our contributors, Charlotte Rose, a sexual freedom campaigner. Adam Scarborough is with me in studio from the campaign against censorship. And Matt Fred's on the line, author of a new book, The Porn Myth.

We're discussing, is porn harmful to society? Again, today's show, obviously dealing with subjects of a sexual nature, may not be appropriate for children. Please do bear that in mind in terms of who is listening nearby to today's broadcast. You can find today's show, of course, if you want to listen later, at premierchristianradio.com slash unbelievable. Come again in just a moment's time. We'll be continuing to discuss this important matter.

Charlotte, before you have to leave us, do you want to sort of respond to anything that Matt had to say in that last part of the show? Yeah, I just want to add to Matt's statement that, you know, he spoke about the two options. Well, there is actually a third option, and that should be education. And I think that education is the key to all of this at the end of the day. But I just wanted to, within that time, I've just managed to go onto my phone, because I'm on the phone at the moment doing the interview with you guys.

But I thought I'd have a quick look on there whilst I have it. And just one of the things that I wanted to bring up was about cancer with wine. And just a quick, this is what I Googled on the first page of Google, that the scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org in the 29th of July 2015, that red wine can actually reduce the risk of cancer, whereas the Independent on the 8th of February, 2017,

said that wine can increase cancerous cells within the body. So all I've got to do is state that, you know, despite whether we find lots of information to say one thing, that we need to be able to look at things in a biased way to say that there's always an equal and opposite of everything that we say. So I appreciate Matt's hard work and efforts to go for the book. And I would love to read the book and find out the information that Matt had got. But there are just as many studies out there, whether it be UK-based or USA-based, stating the exact opposite. So providing you have given people, the readers, an option to be able to choose for themselves

rather than being dictated to the views that you've found, then I'll be more than happy to read it. I mean, I'd be interested to hear what Matt has to say about your analogy with wine and cancer and so on. But you say education is the key, Charlotte. I mean, are you willing... It is the key. And do you think young people should be educated about the issues Matt's presenting I mean, are you willing? It is the key. And do you think young people

should be educated about the issues Matt's presenting about these may cause you problems? Yes, they should be presented both sides. This is the whole point about education. It's about learning the both sides to give people an opportunity to have a choice. I never said right at the beginning that Matt was was not correct but i never said he was correct either people need to have the opportunity to be educated in both sides of the story to be able to make the decision for their own mind that's what that's what the whole point of life is right it's to choose and and to have that choice in their life is is what we're what yeah we're allowed at the end of the day. So providing that information is there, then yes.

But I don't feel as though it's good to be dictated to that this is the only way it should be because it's not about what we all believe. It's about people's choices in life. Thank you very much for being on the line today, Charlotte. Really interesting to have you on. Thank you for letting me correct you all. Well, I appreciate you.

Very kind of you to come on, even though your throat was not in great condition today. to have to have you on thank you for letting me correct you all well i appreciate you were very kind of you to come on even though your throat was not in great condition today and i hope it hasn't worsened it too much being on the program but uh in any case i'll make sure there's a link to where people can find out more about you uh from today's program as well thanks for being with us today charlotte um we'll come back to you in a moment adam and matt just before um we come back to adam as well uh charlotte's effectively saying you know well science is constantly showing us different things you know one minute studies show wine's good for you the next minute it shows it's not good for you and

it's more more than likely the same for pornography as well did you want to respond to that yeah i mean i appreciate everything charlotte said and and it was great having her on the show, great listening to her opinion, and I'm really happy to hear that she's open to where the evidence is pointing. Certainly, scientific investigation by its nature, being inductive, is always open to change. That said, if the preponderance of evidence is all on one side of an issue, then I think that we should follow the science where it leads, all right? So, there are no direct causal studies that would show, you know, causation between smoking nicotine and cancer or nicotine and addiction, okay? All we have is

correlative studies, but the prepondence of evidence is on the side of the fact that cigarettes do lead to cancer and so forth. And so, we should accept that. Likewise, I'm saying that the preponderance of evidence lies on the side of saying porn is addictive, it leads to things like sexual dysfunction, increased desire to look at more disturbing forms of pornography that it leads to relationship breakdown and so forth. And she says, let's look at the education. Well, I've done it. That's the whole reason I wrote the book. And so, I'm happy to hear too that she's open to reading the book and perhaps educating herself. And I think when she does that, she'll realize there's actually

a lot of studies right now, as I say, 33 neuroscience-based studies that show porn can be addictive and there's none on the other side. Now, actually, people might point to a 2013 or 2015 study by Nicole Prowse, okay? That's the only study anybody cites if they want to say pornography doesn't lead to addiction, doesn't cause addiction. But the problem with her studies is that there's actually been now nine different peer-reviewed papers written by some of the world's top neuroscientists, all of which are showing that Nicole Prowse misinterpreted her data. And so even her papers show that pornography leads to desensitization, hypofrontality and sensitization. So I'm all for it. Let's educate people. Okay. Adam, anything you want to say as we start to close out today?

Yeah, interesting. It's nothing to do with today's subject, but interesting what Charlotte was saying about wine there. Wine also acts as a vasodilator, I do know, for decreasing people's cholesterol. But on the subject of what Matt matt's saying interesting what matt was saying about the other side i mean it's quite obvious why the other side as matt says um there are in studies because it's a case of leave well alone most people who use pornography as a release as a safety valve don't have a problem with it this is why there is nothing on the other side and again there are so many variables here in these studies i mean if we were to look at some of those studies in matt's book you know you were taking into consideration their upbringings of

these people why they had this disposition and again there's nothing said and what i've seen about matt's book i must read it in greater detail about what would have happened to these people had they not had access to porn as a result and you know if you go back to 18th century 19th century psychiatry there was actually a diagnosis then called masturbation psychosis where patients were told to wave their arms around in the air 20 times a day in order to stop masturbating matt 90 of men have masturbated the other percent 10 are liars okay i mean i guess i guess the point is matt you you know people i mean pornography is older, pornography is as old as art, you know, you can find it on the walls of, you know, Roman villas and so on. It's hardly a new thing and the things that go with it are hardly new either. So is that an argument to say, you know, you're kind of fighting a losing battle here?

No, I mean, all sorts. There's lots of practices or actions that might be immoral that go back, you know, well into the past. That doesn't mean that they're good. And so, I think that's also true of pornography. So, yeah, it's been lovely talking to Adam. I really want to encourage people to get the book. I want to let people know, too, that 100% of the royalties from this book go to help a group in San diego that support sexually trafficked women so i'm not making a cent from this book and so i hope people will uh will pick it up and decide for themselves okay and i'm sure a copy could be sent to charlotte as well he's interested in reading i'd love to yeah i'd love to great great stuff thank you very much for being on the program today matt to talk about your book again the porn

myth.com if you want to find out more um if people want to find out more about the campaign against censorship i believe the website is d a d l a s.org.uk yeah that's basically or if they just google campaign against censorship it will come up there's quite a lot of archived material in there etc which is interesting read i do the occasional article myself. And it's been great speaking to Matt here today and it's been very, very interesting. All right. So there you go. If you're still hanging out, thank you so much for listening to this exchange that I had with Charlotte and Adam. So I just want to riff a little bit and share my thoughts on the interaction. First of all, I have to say, I thought both Adam and Charlotte were lovely to speak to, right? They were both congenial. And I think we all kind of put in an effort not to be

kind of arrogant and stuff to each other. So that's a positive there. I think one of the negatives of this interaction is it apparently wasn't made clear from the get-go that this was a topic about is pornography harmful or healthy. Now, that was my understanding going into the discussion, and that's even the title of the podcast on unbelievable. Okay. And I tried to make that clear in my opening statement, right? That there's good evidences to show that pornography has a detrimental effect on the individual consumer, on relationships and society. But I understand, of course, Adam's major thing is censorship. And it seemed like that's what he was mainly hung up on. And so I did my best to sort of meet him halfway and say, all right, look, you know, I can concede some of what

you're saying. Nevertheless, before we even begin to talk about whether or not pornography should be regulated, we should probably know if it's harmful, right? Because if it's not harmful, there's no use having that conversation at all. As lovely a guy as Adam was, he did say a number of bizarre, unscientific statements. He said in passing that we have to masturbate because if we don't, the penis won't know how to work when you engage in sexual intercourse. That's clearly false. Secondly, he said that sex is a need like water, food, and shelter. But as I pointed out, that's clearly false. And it seems to me only in a sexualized culture such as our own would you make such an absurd statement. You can live without sex, believe it or not. Hopefully,

as you listen to this podcast, that's what you're doing right now. And many people are celibate. to this podcast, that's what you're doing right now. And many people are celibate, many people, perhaps their husband or wife left them. And this idea that they need to have sex or something bad will happen to them is just rubbish. It's not true. And then occasionally he'll throw out a study here and there, but as I pointed out, it's not enough to say what you've heard. You actually have to back it up with some evidence. Okay. Now, Charlotte was very big on education and good. That's why I wrote my book, to educate people about how pornography is having a deleterious effect on their life. Now, one of the things Charlotte pointed out, which I wish I had responded to better, she made this argument, right? And this isn't her exact words, but I think this is what she's getting at, right? She's saying, okay, so sex

clearly has a procreation function, but it's also like it has a unitive aspect, right? An aspect in which people come together and have this pleasurable, powerful experience. But, you know, we teach kids about the procreation aspect at school or something, you know, with sex ed books and here's how the penis and the vagina work and here's how conception happens. But who's teaching people about how to have pleasurable sex? So long as we don't teach people that, we need pornography. That was her argument. Okay. I wish I had have said, and of course, you're thinking on your feet during these things, and so it's difficult to do that. I wish I had have said, like, it's not like people didn't know how to have pleasurable sex before porn. And this is

actually why I brought up that my wife and I saved sex till marriage. Now, I have to admit, I wish I hadn't have brought that up. I really believe that Friedrich Nietzsche has this notion called resentment. Okay, it's the French for resentment. And he uses the term to mean this, when people feel that they are unable to achieve a certain good, because they recognize they're impotent to achieve it, they will demonize that good. They'll make the good bad and the bad good. Now, Nietzsche used it to demonize Christians, right? He called Socrates a blockhead. He said that Christianity was a slave religion because, you know, Christians aren't mighty enough to go out and take, you know, what's theirs. And so they make a whole virtue out of being meek and so forth. Well, I clearly

disagree with Nietzsche in that regard. I think it takes tremendous strength to be humble, to respond with forgiveness rather than force and so on. But I do think his notion of resentment is an accurate, insightful one. And I can't help but feel that when people like Charlotte throw chastity back in my face, essentially like, well, this is kind of archaic. I feel like this is an example of resentment. Now, I'm not psychoanalyzing Charlotte. I don't know who she is. My brief interactions with her online lead me to think that she's a lovely human being, okay, in many respects. But I do think this is the case with many people. When they demonize chastity, when they demonize monogamy, when they demonize patient, loving, faithful marriage,

I think it's very often that perhaps they feel that this isn't a possibility for them. And so they kind of relish when all sorts of terrible things happen to marriages. For example, you remember the, what was that television show, 14 Kids and Counting or something? Remember the Duggars, all those kids? And then a couple of years ago, I think there was some sort of scandal, some sort of infidelity or something. I'm not exactly sure, but I just remember someone on mainstream media going off and saying, that'll teach her that she thinks she's so much better than us. That I think is an example of resenting more, because how could you not look at those people in their life and think anything other than,

what a beautiful way to live your life. Like, look how wholesome their family is. But, you know, as soon as they fell, we jumped on them, because it's like like we don't really believe that we can attain this beautiful, you know, biblical view of sexuality. Okay. So that's why I brought up the whole chastity thing. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't. Again, the point was to say that people can get married without looking at porn and they have the rest of their lives to learn how to please each other sexually. It's not like people didn't know how to do that before Pornhub existed. Rather, they get to discover that, and what a wonderful thing that is. And of course, finally, when Charlotte threw out the, well, look, I can see conflicting arguments as to whether or not wine causes cancer or not. As I said, I mean,

that was just clutching at straws. I think that's not so much an argument against porn being bad as it is an argument against scientific investigation. But as I said, when the preponderance of evidence is all on one side, we should go ahead and follow the evidence. So, you know, kudos to Charlotte. I offered her my book. She wrote to me and said she'd be willing to read it. So I'll be sending her that copy. But overall, to some degree, I think it was a fruitful discussion. I did my very best to show that being against pornography isn't an anti-sex thing. Rather, it's a pro-science, pro-love thing. thing. I would love to hear your thoughts on the debate, your critical thoughts, your positive thoughts. Feel free to tweet me and just let me know what you thought about it. And as I said in the beginning of the show, listen to the entire debate and other stuff put out by Unbelievable. I'll put a link to their podcast in the description. And I'll also put a link to my new book, The Porn Myth, in the description. The Porn Myth is a, I'm sure you know this by now

since you listened to the debate, it's a non-religious book. All of the proceeds go to help a group in San Diego, not all the proceeds, but my portion of the proceeds, 100% of my portion, goes to help a group in San Diego that helps sexually trafficked women. So if you haven't yet got the book, please do it. Go to thepornmyth.com to learn more. God bless you, and we'll be back to our

regular scheduling next Tuesday. And so I'll be chatting with Father Damien Ference next Tuesday on the whole essence and being distinction that Aquinas brings up. And we'll talk about why that might mean that there only could ever be one God. So if you've been interested in that kind of thing, check out next week's episode all right god bless thanks for listening