Pints With Aquinas - 64: Does the Church teach that Limbo is a real place?

Episode Date: July 11, 2017

Today we chat to Thomas about Limbo. What is it? Are Catholics bound to believe in it? If it does exist what do the souls there experience? --- Whether those souls which depart with original sin alone, suffer from a bodily fire, and are punished by fire? Gregory Nazianzen in his fortieth sermon, which is entitled On Holy Baptism, distinguishes three classes of unbaptized persons: those namely who refuse to be baptized, those who through neglect have put off being baptized until the end of life and have been surprised by sudden death, and those who, like infants, have failed to receive it through no fault of theirs. Of the first he says that they will be punished not only for their other sins, but also for their contempt of Baptism; of the second, that they will be punished, though less severely than the first, for having neglected it; and of the last he says that "a just and eternal Judge will consign them neither to heavenly glory nor to the eternal pains of hell, for although they have not been signed with Baptism, they are without wickedness and malice, and have suffered rather than caused their loss of Baptism." He also gives the reason why, although they do not reach the glory of heaven, they do not therefore suffer the eternal punishment suffered by the damned: "Because there is a mean between the two, since he who deserves not honor and glory is not for that reason worthy of punishment, and on the other hand he who is not deserving of punishment is not for that reason worthy of glory and honor" [...] Hence, as his guilt did not result from an action of his own, even so neither should he be punished by suffering himself, but only by losing that which his nature was unable to obtain. On the other hand, those who are under sentence for original sin will suffer no loss whatever in other kinds of perfection and goodness which are consequent upon human nature ST. Appendix I, I, I. Whether these same souls suffer spiritual affliction on account of the state in which they are?   right reason does not allow one to be disturbed on account of what one was unable to avoid; hence Seneca proves (Ep. lxxxv, and De ira ii, 6) that "a wise man is not disturbed." Now in these children there is right reason deflected by no actual sin. Therefore they will not be disturbed for that they undergo this punishment which they could nowise avoid. [...] Now in these children there is right reason deflected by no actual sin. Therefore they will not be disturbed [...] [T]he pain of punishment corresponds to the pleasure of sin; wherefore, since original sin is void of pleasure, its punishment is free of all pain. [...] [I]f one is guided by right reason one does not grieve through being deprived of what is beyond one's power to obtain, but only through lack of that which, in some way, one is capable of obtaining. Thus no wise man grieves for being unable to fly like a bird, or for that he is not a king or an emperor, since these things are not due to him; whereas he would grieve if he lacked that to which he had some kind of claim [...] Hence they will nowise grieve for being deprived of the divine vision; nay, rather will they rejoice for that they will have a large share of God's goodness and their own natural perfections.   ST. Appendix I, 2. SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Pints with Aquinas depends on your support. If you're an awesome person and want to prove it, go to pintswithaquinas.com, click the Patreon banner, and there you can learn how to support the show for as little as $2 a month. Every dollar helps, and we are grateful for your support. Welcome to Pints with Aquinas episode 64. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today we'll ask St. Thomas, what's the deal with limbo? G'day guys, good to have you back here at Pints with Aquinas the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy

Do you remember like a dozen or so episodes ago I said that we have a number here at Pints with Aquinas that you can call and leave a message? Well, we still do. The reason I haven't played many is that a lot of them don't make sense. I think people are probably drunk when they call me. Not really, but maybe. Anyway, the number if you want to call Pints with Aquinas and leave a message, is this. 707-927-4687. We received a call recently worth playing. Here it is.

Hey, Matt. Calling from Kentucky. My friends and I love the Pints with Aquinas podcast. We actually listen to a couple of episodes, and then we get together, drink a couple of beers, and debate whatever it was you and Aquinas were debating. So a good time I had up here in Kentucky. Thanks for providing that. My question is, would you ever do an episode about what St. Thomas Aquinas thought about the Greeks and particularly Eastern Orthodoxy?

All right. Thanks so much. Yeah. Thank you very much for calling and leaving me a message and a big hello to your awesome group that drink and listen to Pints with Aquinas. I got to say, if I was there in Kentucky, I would be drinking Basil Hayden's whiskey. I was given a talk in Kentucky a couple of years ago, and my host bought me a bottle of this, and it was delicious. So, anyway, it's great to hear from you. I love Kentucky. delicious. So, anyway, it's great to hear from you. I love Kentucky. Yeah, I would do a show on this topic if I knew enough about it. Unfortunately, I don't. Here's what I do know. Thomas Aquinas was actually scheduled to be at the Council of Lyon, which was a council dedicated to which was a council dedicated to the unity between the East and the West, but he actually died along the way. I don't know of any writings or conversations that he had on the topic. If any of our listeners do know, I'd be very interested and you could write to me at

mattatpintswithaquinas.com to let me know. I am very sympathetic towards the Orthodox Church, primarily because I attend an Eastern Catholic Church, Byzantine Catholic Church. So, if you were to come to Divine Liturgy with me on Sunday morning, it would look almost identical. Actually, it would just look identical to your typical Greek or Russian Orthodox liturgy. You know, the only difference is we pray for the Pope, they pray for the Patriarch. Here's a thought that I've had recently. Just as Judah and Benjamin in the Old Testament remained while the rest were lost, the lost tribes of Israel, so today, I think it, you know,

maybe you'll think it's a stretch. I'm not sure. We have Rome and Byzantium and then the lost tribes, as it were, of Protestantism, right? Now, I know that that's going to be massively offensive to my Protestant listeners, but, you know, you knew that I disagreed with you, you disagreed with me, but we love each other and we listen. Well, you listen to me, so thank you anyway, but trying to be too offended, but that is my opinion, right? That Rome and Byzantium remain while Protestantism becomes increasingly unrecognizable from historic Christianity. But when you look at the beliefs of the East and the West, you know, they're almost identical. You know, obviously, the biggest one is the primacy of

Peter, of the Pope, and what that looks like. But, you know, the idea that Mary was pure, that she was assumed into heaven, the Eucharist, the sacraments, all of this is the same. I actually love, we have a Russian Orthodox church up the road from my house. And while I don't go to divine liturgy there, my wife and I will go there in the evenings whenever we have a date night and we know the priest there, and yeah, we usually pray in there before we head out before the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which the Orthodox have since they have a valid priesthood. But anyway, sorry I can't be more help to you in that regard. As I say, if anyone has any more information about Aquinas in the East,

please let me know. Today, we want to talk about limbo. Now, maybe some of you have heard about limbo. Maybe you're not Catholic, and maybe you've also heard about limbo. You're not sure what it means. We want to talk about that today. Basically, this idea of limbo, the kind of middle place between heaven and hell, was something that was believed by most Catholics in the Middle Ages, and that seems to have included St. Thomas Aquinas. However, most theologians today don't think it is true. It was actually never officially taught by the Catholic Church, this idea of limbo. So, well, what was it? Well, I guess it dates back to St. Augustine. In his dialogues with Pelagius, who, by the way, was teaching that baptism isn't necessary for salvation. All right,

that's a heresy, all right, because the Bible teaches otherwise. St. Augustine responded by saying that unbaptized children who die go to hell. Yep, that's what he said, although he didn't think that they suffered the same pains as those that were not guilty, those who were guilty of sin, rather, I should say. But the idea is like, what do you do? Like, if baptism is necessary for salvation, and you've got babies who die, right, before committing actual sin, well, if you say they go to heaven, aren't you there by saying that baptism wasn't really necessary? And if you say they go to hell, doesn't that seem massively unjust? And thus came along this idea of limbo, which was this kind of like nice place where no one suffered pain, but they didn't enjoy the bliss of heaven either. So, we'll say more about that in a moment, but

let's see what Aquinas has to say on limbo and the reasons for and against its existence. He says, here's the question, whether the souls which depart with original sin alone suffer from a bodily fire and are punished by fire. And he quotes Gregory Nazianzin. I probably screwed that up. And this, Gregory, distinguishes three classes of unbaptized persons, okay? First, those who refuse to be baptized. Secondly, those who through neglect have put off being baptized until the end of life and have been, you know, surprised by a sudden death. And thirdly, those who like infants have failed to receive it through no fault of theirs. Of the first, he says that they will be punished, not only for their other sins, but also for their contempt of baptism. By the way,

I'm quoting Aquinas here, if you couldn't tell. Of the second, that they will be punished, though less severely than the first, for having neglected it. Gregory, by the way, doesn't specify whether the punishment is hell or purgatory. And of the last, Gregory says that a just and eternal judge will consign them neither to heavenly glory, not to the eternal pains of hell, for although they have not been signed with baptism, they are without wickedness and malice and have suffered rather than caused their loss of baptism. rather than caused their loss of baptism. He also gives the reason why, although they do not reach the glory of heaven, they do not therefore suffer the eternal punishment suffered by the damned. Because there is a mean between the two, since he who deserves not honor and glory is not for that reason worthy of punishment.

And on the other hand, he who is not deserving of punishment is not for that reason worthy of glory and honor. Hence, as his guilt did not result from an action of his own, even so, neither should he be punished by suffering himself, but only by losing that which his nature was unable to attain. On the other hand, those who are under the sentence for original sin alone will suffer no loss whatever in other kinds of perfection and goodness which are consequent upon human nature. Peter Kreeft refers to limbo as a sort of heavenly nursery where the souls of the unbaptized infants will live in a state of, you know, relative happiness forever, but without full throttle heaven, without the full beatific vision. As I say, this is something that most theologians don't believe today, and for a couple of reasons. One is, you know, we see the way in which Christ welcomed children,

let the little children come to me, says Christ. And secondly, as the catechism says, while it is true that we are bound by the sacraments, it doesn't follow that God is bound by the sacraments. Does that make sense? So, we are bound to receive baptism, right? If we know that we are meant to be baptized, receive baptism, right? If we know that we are meant to be baptized, right, then we're bound to that. But God isn't bound by the sacraments. Like, God can work in a way that is unknown to us. So, the standard view today is that those who die unbaptized, maybe through miscarriage or, you know, right after birth before being baptized, you know, we can still hope for their salvation because of the goodness of God, but it's not the sort of hope that we have if they've been baptized. And I know that that's something that can be emotionally troubling to

people, especially those who've had miscarriages. My wife recently had a miscarriage and she won't want to listen to this podcast. But that's basically the view of the church. The bottom line is that nobody knows. There may well be no limbo at all and there may well be a limbo at all, and there may well be a limbo after all. So, what do they experience then? Let's say there is a limbo. What are those in limbo experiencing? Here's the question. This is from Appendix 1-2. Whether the same souls in limbo suffer spiritual affliction on account of the state in which they are. Aquinas says, right reason does not allow one to be disturbed on account of what one was unable to avoid. Now, in these children, there is right reason deflected by no actual sin. by no actual sin. Therefore, they will not be disturbed. The pain of punishment corresponds to the pleasure of sin. Therefore, since original sin is void of pleasure, its punishment is free

of all pain. On this question, there are three opinions. If one is guided by right reason, one does not grieve through being deprived of what is beyond one's power to obtain, but only through lack of that which in some way one is capable of obtaining. that he is not a king or an emperor, since these things are not due to him, whereas he would grieve if he lacked that to which he had some kind of claim. Hence, they will in no wise grieve for being deprived of the divine vision. Nay, rather will they rejoice, for that they will have a large share of God's goodness and their own natural perfections. So, Aquinas is saying that if limbo does exist, then what these souls are experiencing is a natural perfection, a natural joy. Not the beatific vision, but a natural joy. And they're not all resentful because they're not experiencing the beatific vision, but a natural joy. And they're not all resentful because they're not experiencing the beatific vision in the same way that I, Matt Fradd, am not really upset that

I can never be the president of the United States of America, say, being born in Australia and being an Australian citizen. Like, that doesn't bother me at all because it's not possible for me to become the president. So, that seems to be Aquinas' point. I mentioned earlier in the beginning of the podcast that this idea of limbo was never a doctrine, right, officially set by the Catholic Church like purgatory is, like heaven and hell are. One cannot be a faithful Catholic and deny the existence of purgatory or heaven or hell, but one can look at the evidence for limbo and decide one way or another that they think it's likely not the case or likely the case.

And without a formal statement from the church, we just don't know. But you'll notice that Aquinas seems to have recognized this as well, because he says here that limbo was an opinion. He says, was an opinion. He says, on this question, there are three opinions. So, that's important to recognize, I think, that even though nearly all Catholics in St. Thomas' day accepted Limbo as reality, he, being the careful master that he is, calls it a matter of an opinion rather than a matter of certainty. So, before we wrap up today's podcast, I want to begin by thanking every one of you who supports Pints with Aquinas on Patreon. And I want to invite you, if you haven't yet become a supporter, to do that. You can support Pints with Aquinas for as little as $2 a month. Some people give more. And whatever you give, to the degree in which you give, I give you different thank yous in return.

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