Pints With Aquinas - 72: What do you think about homosexuality? With Daniel Mattson

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 72. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with St. Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today we'll ask St. Thomas the question, what do you think about homosexuality? Thanks for joining us again at Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a bar stall next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. This is the first in a two-part series that we're doing on homosexuality. Before we do anything else, I want to have a look at what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about homosexuality. And this can be found in paragraph 2357. It says, homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or

Starting point is 00:01:07 predominant sexual attraction towards persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained, basing itself on sacred scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity. Tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine, effective, and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. Now, when he talks about, or when the Catechism talks about tradition as always declared, of course, part of the Catholic tradition is St.

Starting point is 00:01:56 Thomas Aquinas, and Aquinas most certainly does deal with the issue of homosexuality, and we'll be reading directly from St. Thomas Aquinas in this podcast. But I wanted to invite a new friend of mine, Daniel Mattson, to join us around the bar table to discuss this issue. And the reason I wanted to invite him is that Daniel is someone who experiences same-sex attraction. He's somebody that once lived the homosexual lifestyle. And so, I feel like he's in a place, better than I am, of authority to speak directly to this issue. So, a bit about Daniel. He is a writer and a public speaker who proclaims the good news of the Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality. His story is told in the award-winning documentary, Desire of the

Starting point is 00:02:44 Everlasting Hills. By the way, if you haven't seen that, look it up online. It's beautiful. Desire of the Everlasting Hills. He is a professional orchestral trombone player. How cool is that? Matson has performed and presented masterclasses around the world, including at the famous St. Petersburg Conservatory in Russia. You're really going to enjoy this conversation. I want to let you know too that if you support Pints with Aquinas on Patreon for $2 a month or more, you have access to an ever-growing exclusive audio library of interviews that I've done with philosophers, converts, and theologians. And one of those interviews

Starting point is 00:03:25 is an interview I did with Dan Mattson. So, in this two-part series, we're going to stick to the more sort of philosophical, apologetic, church teaching type of issues. But if you want to hear a beautiful interview that I just did with Daniel Mattson, you can begin supporting Pints with Aquinas on Patreon. Go to pintswithaquinas.com, click support or the Patreon banner, and there, two bucks a month, and you can listen to it. God bless you. Enjoy the show. Daniel, good to have you on the show. It's great to be with you. Thanks, Matt. Tell our listeners a bit about yourself. Well, I live in the Midwest. I live in Michigan, the great state of Michigan, at least when it's in August right now. It's beautiful.

Starting point is 00:04:03 the great state of Michigan, at least when it's in August right now. It's beautiful. If I were to talk to you again in February, it would be a different story. But I am a professional trombone player. That's what I do for a living. That's awesome. I play in an orchestra, and I'm very grateful to do that for a living. And it's taken me all over the world.

Starting point is 00:04:24 And music is my day job. Writing is my sideline. And I have written a book about my experience of being a prodigal son. I was raised Catholic, but left behind the church and lived my life the way I wanted to live it and lived with same-sex attractions and decided, well, what the world says about me is true. I'm gay and I'm going to live out that way. And found that it wasn't as fulfilling as I expected it to be and then found myself the last place I expected to be, which is back into the Catholic Church. And that's really the nutshell of my book. back into the Catholic Church. And that's really the nutshell of my book. But now that I've been back in the church, I just want to share the good news that, you know, hey, if you're a smart man, if you're a wise man, you're going to be guided by the Catholic Church in the realm of human

Starting point is 00:05:17 sexuality and in all things. And the title of your book is Why I Don't Call Myself Gay. What's the subtitle? How I Reclaimed My Sexual Reality and Found Peace. And you and I have been joking about whose book would be more awkward to read. Yes. On a train or in a doctor's office. I was in a doctor's office yesterday reading your book, and I decided, no, yours is more awkward. Well, yes, it has. It's really a very, it's not a subtle cover at all. No.

Starting point is 00:05:51 I love it, though. I think it was terrific. Were you pleased with it? Oh, very much so. I think it's just brilliant. It's really kind of a name tag for those who have not seen it. It's one of those, hello, my name is, those red and white name tags uh and then it's but it's it's the printing is why i don't call myself gay and then the handwritten part is gay and it covers the person's face and it really is the basic basis of the book that there's these gay identities with division of the world between gay and straight robs us of our true identity as beloved children and sons and daughters of God. And I think it's just,

Starting point is 00:06:32 it's really perfect. Pete Well, before we get to that, I want to ask you that question about why you don't call yourself gay. I just want to talk just in general about the church's teaching on homosexuality. Obviously, many people, you know, they find this completely hateful and offensive. You'll hear people say, love is love. Why won't you let people just love who they want to love? Isn't the church just not just out of date, but bigoted towards people who could really be living fulfilling, beautiful lives, but the church refuses to let them. And thank God, there's all of these Protestant denominations who are beginning

Starting point is 00:07:13 to allow and celebrate even homosexuality. I don't mean to say all Protestant churches, of course, there's many that don't, but there are certainly some that do. I was just in Manhattan recently, and many of the Protestant churches around the place are covered with rainbow flags and, you know, all are welcome here and that sort of thing. Sort of gives you the indication that if you are a homosexual person, or I'm not sure what the terminology is, you can correct me, that you wouldn't be welcome in the Catholic Church. So, give us your initial thoughts, and I'd like to read the definition from the Catechism and get your thoughts on that. Sure, sure. emotional argument that is used today that's saying, well, the basic root of that is that if you have certain feelings and if anyone says that you should not act on those feelings,

Starting point is 00:08:15 then the person that says that you shouldn't act on those feelings is a bigot. That's really what it boils down to. So the church is sitting there and saying, there is a plan for human sexuality that is hardwired into our bodies. Even aside from any sort of moral commandment from God, we can see the reality of what sex is for by the design of our body. If I have ears and I can see what the ear is for, and a good ear is an ear that hears well. So thus we can determine, oh, hey, you get old, you can't hear, let's get some hearing aids for you. Or to protect your ears when you're using a chainsaw, let's put some earmuffs on. All right. So the design of the body itself reveals what it means to flourish as a human person. Well, we do that in every area of the body except in the area of human sexuality. The fact of the matter is, you know, we talk about we've got all we we have a reproductive system, right? And we learn that in

Starting point is 00:09:27 biology. Well, no one has a reproductive system, Matt. There's a reproductive system when a man and a woman come together. It's incomplete. My body as a sexual creature makes no sense unless there were women in the world. It's the one area of the human person where we need another to complete and it always is the opposite sex. Well, if this were another area of human existence

Starting point is 00:09:59 that wasn't connected so much with pleasure, let's be honest, we would be saying, well, of course, a man that wasn't connected so much with pleasure? Let's be honest. We would be saying, well, of course, a man and a woman, you're going to get together. You're going to use that gift of sexuality for its purpose, which means it's for the propagation of the species. We need man and woman to promote and flourish. And then you're going to stay together forever to protect the children that might come from that sexual union. There you haven't even talked about God.

Starting point is 00:10:34 You're just looking at the design of the human body. But now that reality, basically we have severed human sexuality from its purpose and its intent. And the primary goal, of course, we all know about our society is that sex is primarily a vehicle for pleasure. It's mainly about me. I might, I can, you know, help you get pleasure if you are, if we're both consenting adults. But the goal of it is, is just pleasure. And once we separated that consenting adults, but the goal of it is just pleasure. And once we separated that from the purpose of sexuality, that opened the door to all kinds of things. So once now the most important driving factor in society to say, let's be sexually liberated. We want to do whatever we want.

Starting point is 00:11:24 That's why you get abortion. That's why we have contraception. And that's why we have approval of same sex marriage. And if anybody comes in and steps in and say, hey, is this really the path to peace and human flourishing? Then suddenly, because you might be preventing them to have the kind of pleasure that they want, then you're bigoted and you're a homophobe and all these name-calling things happen. And then, of course, you say, we could talk about this later, Matt.

Starting point is 00:11:54 I said, well, you're destining somebody with same-sex attraction to loneliness. You know, there's sort of, it's all these kind of emotional arguments that are out there, and it's very powerful. But the truth, the truth is there, and the truth cannot be ignored. And the reason I came back to the Catholic Church is because the truth is there, and it's going to protect the truth. And I realized that the truth actually is what is going to lead me to peace, joy, and fulfillment. Beautifully stated. I want to share, since this is a podcast called Pines with Aquinas, what Aquinas had to say on homosexuality.

Starting point is 00:12:35 And we should also note that, just like you said, this isn't just about men not being able to have sex with men or women shouldn't have sex with women. It's about, yeah, sex should be ordered, and there's a certain law there that we ought to abide, and you even just sort of gave a philosophical argument for why that's the case. So let me just quickly share what he says and get your thoughts on it. He says, whatever there occurs, a special kind of deformity, whereby the venereal act, which is a really unpleasant way of just saying sex, it's almost worse than humping. Okay, continue. A venereal act is rendered unbecoming.

Starting point is 00:13:13 There is a determinate species of lust. This may occur in two ways. First, through being contrary to right reason, and this is common to all lustful vices. That's just what you said there, Daniel. and this is common to all lustful vices that's just what you said there then you secondly because in addition it is contrary to the natural order of the venereal act as becoming to the human race and this is called the unnatural vice this may happen in several ways first by procuring pollution which is a fancy way of saying masturbation, without any copulation for the sake of venereal pleasure. This pertains to the sin of uncleanness,

Starting point is 00:13:49 which some call, and I love this, you ready for this? Epheminacy. Right. Some people have called masturbation effeminacy. Secondly, by copulation with a thing of undue species, like this is called bestiality, right? Thirdly, by copulation with an undue sex, male with male and female with female, as the apostle states in Romans 1.27. And this is called the vice of sodomy. Fourthly, by not observing the natural manner of copulation, either as to undue means or as to other monstrous and bestial manners of copulation.

Starting point is 00:14:26 Now, this is not what you would say to somebody who was experiencing same-sex attraction, but I do think, so I want you to speak to that, but I do think it is interesting that I do think, you know, sometimes it seems like, and maybe Pope Francis is right in this respect, sometimes it does seem that our entire hang-up is on this issue of homosexual acts. Whereas, of course, I'm also against like watching porn and masturbating to it. You know, I'm also against adultery, but I don't hate adulterers. I don't hate people who consume pornography. I just don't think it's right that they do those things. who consume pornography. I just don't think it's right that they do those things.

Starting point is 00:15:13 Absolutely. You know, that point in the Summa is really an important one for putting all this into perspective. So, people out there in the world say, oh, the church is just so focused on homosexuality. Well, not really. It's the world out there that is making a big deal of this part of the teaching of chastity. And so you sit there and say, okay, we might say that, oh, homosexuality is against nature. Well, there are four things, as you pointed out, that are contra notorum. Four things that are opposed to the nature of human sexuality. Masturbation, contraception, homosexuality, and sex with animals.

Starting point is 00:15:54 So it's all uncomfortable. But to sit there and think that somebody who is succumbing to the temptation of masturbation is living outside the natural order of human sexuality. It's the same category of two men having sex with men or a married couple who is contraceptive. So in the eyes of the church, there is not, oh, this is somehow the unforgivable sin, or this is the worst sin of all things. But see, here, this is what the world doesn't get, is chastity is an invitation to a fuller life, and it's not really marked by thou shalt not, thou shalt not, thou shalt not. The thou shalt nots of the church are sort of like the protective barrier at the Grand Canyon. It says, hey, look at this beautiful, beautiful vista, but don't get too close to the cliff. Because if you go this way, you're going to die. And that's really what the church's teaching is about. But, you know, this is the propaganda out there is so effective because

Starting point is 00:17:07 it says, well, the church is saying that people who live with same-sex attraction are really messed up. You know, we use the word disorder. I know we're going to talk about the catechism a little bit. And, you know, one of the words that the catechism uses is that the inclination is objectively disordered. And then people get up in arms. Oh, that means you're saying that I'm disordered? I'm a disordered person, like mentally disordered?

Starting point is 00:17:39 No, no, no. It's talking. The church has a very precise way of speaking about these things, right, Matt? I mean, it's just what you quoted by St. Thomas Aquinas. It's dispassionate. That's right. It's nuanced. It's nuanced.

Starting point is 00:17:57 It's not unemotional, no sentimentality. It's very clear and precise. And, of course, when we're going to reach out and evangelize, we don't hit people over the head with, well, that's contra notorum. So, we have to find that balance, of course. Yeah. How did, I mean, we have to be honest, though, and say that, I mean, at least it appears to me, and I might be mistaken in this regard, that there has been a lot more bigotry towards those who, like legitimate bigotry, not just a scare word bigotry that has no basis in reality, but genuine bigotry to those who have been more

Starting point is 00:18:37 effeminate or have, you know, who have had been homosexual and have had relationships with men. You know, I mean, growing up, you would call people like a fag or a homo and that you didn't even really mean that they were homosexual. It was just like a way to, you know, curse them. So, I mean, I just, in a sense, is it nice to see that we seem to be growing away from that? I guess what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the culture, right, when it says that there has been an unfair bigotry towards homosexual persons. I don't think you and I would say, no, that's completely false, or would you? No, no. I mean, the truth is there somewhere, but at the same time, you would think that today in 2017, that bigotry against people identify as gay is as prevalent as it ever has been a little bit on the narrative that there has been – the primary experience of people like me has been bigotry.

Starting point is 00:19:56 You know, if you look at the history of the world, you know, I really take exception with the word homophobic, for example. I think homophobic was a very cleverly created word to really stifle a free thought and open exchange about all of these issues. Because the worst thing today is to be considered whatever phobic you are, whatever phobic you are, transphobic, homophobic. It was invented in 1972 by a gay rights activist who successfully manufactured this as a pejorative for people who didn't approve of men having sex with men or women having sex with women. Which is a very different thing to being afraid of them. Right. Which is what the word means, sex with women. Which is a very different thing to being afraid of them. Right. Which is what the word means, yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:47 Right. It's a fear of, and it's an irrational fear. Yeah, an irrational fear, not just a fear, an irrational fear, yeah. And in fact, we now have, there's whole degrees of various types of homophobia, and it's viewed now as some sort of mental problem that needs to be remedied. So it's very interesting. What happened in 1973 at the National Conference of the APA is that you had, through a political push, you had a vote that took homosexuality out of the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual, basically saying, well, this is normal and healthy. Well, it was a vote, and scientific evidence is never determined by a vote. determined by a vote. But at the same time, you had people in 1972 creating this flipping this around the other way so that, okay, suddenly homosexuality is perfectly normal and healthy.

Starting point is 00:21:55 And if you don't agree with that, you're the ones who are unhealthy and have a mental neuroses and that sort of issue. So the tables were turned pretty effectively. But if you look at the history of the world, there hasn't been some sort of irrational fear of people like me. Dante, in his poetry, he had great sympathy for men like me. St. John Chrysostom had great sympathy for men like me. The reactions have been never fear. It's usually pity, you know, and let's be honest, some head scratching. Why would you do that, right? This confusion about why would you engage in sex with the same sex. But all that to say, there has, of course, been bullying. There is bullying that still happens today.

Starting point is 00:22:52 It's not as prevalent as the propaganda has to say. Really, the most affluent demographic in America today are single gay men. Wow. They don't have children. They have a remarkable amount of expendable income. And if you have two quote-unquote gay men together, they're really affluent. So, you know, are we really a society

Starting point is 00:23:24 that has pushed down and prevents everything that the happiness of the quote unquote gay couple? No, we haven't. But the propaganda is still effective. Now, that being said, when I go talk to high school students, I say, look, you want to love people like Christ loves? Don't say gay jokes. Don't. You need to be a friend to that boy who came out or that boy who feels ostracized. You need to reach out to him in love.

Starting point is 00:23:58 He's looking for a male friend. Really, what the line is, is for good friendship. So there's a balance friend. Really, what the line is, is for good friendship. So, there's a balance there, but I think it's swung so far the other way that people are so afraid to even talk about the morality of all this for fear of being called a bigot or a homophobe. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Pints with Aquinas. I hope it was edifying for you. We're going to pick up next week, our discussion, among other things, we'll be talking about how people who are in the

Starting point is 00:24:32 church, leaders in the church, like Father James Martin, who recently wrote a book called Building a Bridge, why his approach may not be helpful at all, even if it comes from a good place. may not be helpful at all, even if it comes from a good place. And we'll talk more about what Daniel meant when he said things like, people like me. How exactly does Daniel view himself if he doesn't view himself as gay? Certainly, these are two powerful episodes that I think are probably going to bless a lot of people and upset a lot of people as well. If you want to listen to Daniel's personal story, as opposed to this sort of philosophizing and discussing of church teaching, become a member on Patreon. If you donate two bucks a month, you get access, as I said in the beginning, to an audio library of interviews I did. And you can go right now if you want and listen to that powerful interview. So again, to do that, go to pintswithaquinas.com, click support, and that's how you can do it.

Starting point is 00:25:27 Thanks so much for listening. Chat with you next week.

Pints With Aquinas - 72: What do you think about homosexuality? With Daniel Mattson

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