Pints With Aquinas - 94: What's the point in praying if you can't change God's mind?

Episode Date: February 20, 2018

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G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down over a pint of beer with Thomas Aquinas and ask him any one question, what would it be? Today we're going to ask Thomas about praying. Prayers of petition. What's the point if everything's going to happen the way it's going to happen anyway? You can't change God's mind. What's the point of praying? We're going to talk about that sort of thing. He has some interesting things to say about that. Then in the Q&A section, I get to some of the questions that have been sent to me over Patreon. Do animals have eternal souls? We'll talk about that. Do I prefer DC or Marvel? We're going to talk about that. We're also going to be talking about a lot today about the Byzantine Catholic Church, as well as the sorts of music that we hear at Mass and what music is

appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or Divine Liturgy. So it's going to be a fun one, and I hope you enjoy it. Here we go. G'day, welcome back to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. I am drinking a coffee out of my pints with Aquinas Beerstein. I understand there has been some questioning as to whether or not this is appropriate, since it is a beerstein. And I think it would be super cool if one of y'all out there

wrote me a Thomas Aquinas article on whether or not this is appropriate. It should be said contra and then, you know, give me the reasons for and against and I'll post it. Today, by the way, I'm drinking this amazing coffee. If any of you guys are big coffee fans like I am, Guadalupe Roastery, they actually sent me a couple of bags of coffee because uh they knew i ran this podcast and they were like we can't afford to sponsor you but we can send you some coffee and you can try it out and see what you think and uh i have to say i was really skeptical because whenever somebody uh whenever you hear about a coffee company and they say things like you know it's ethical we really treat the farm as well i think to myself that's great i'm really

glad that you do that, but I'm more interested in whether your coffee is good or not. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but I'm a real coffee snob. And sometimes people go on about how great their coffee is for community and the people who farm it. I'm like, that's good, but your coffee tastes like crap, so I don't want it. So I was actually really skeptical, but it's actually a really good coffee. So if you're looking for really good coffee and you want to support a great upcoming Catholic group that actually does amazing work in the areas in which it farms the coffee and roasts the coffee, check out guadaluperostery.com, guadaluperostery.com. Anyway, that's what I'm

drinking today. Today, we're going to be talking about prayer. And as I said in the beginning, what's the point in praying? If everything's just going to happen the way it's going to happen anyway, like what's the point? And we're drawing here from the Secunda Secundae, question 83. Now, this question, my understanding is, this is the longest question in the Summa Theologiae. So, you notice the Summa, the way it's broken down, right? You've got questions and then articles. And so, for example, the question on the existence of God, that has three articles. But the question on prayer from the Secunda Secundae, 83, this has 17 articles. So, this is my

understanding, unless I'm totally wrong, but I think I'm right. This is the longest question in the Summa Theologiae. So, a lot of thought being dedicated to prayer here. Now, what I want to do is, what we'll do is we'll read the main answer. We'll go through that. We'll talk about that a little. Then I'll go through the three objections and the three responses real quick. This is one of those more nerdier episodes of Pints with Aquinas, where there's not a lot of bells or fanfare, but we are going to dig into one of his articles. So if you love Aquinas, I think this will be pretty exciting for you, hopefully. So Aquinas begins by saying that among the ancients, there was a threefold error concerning prayer. All right. So, he's going to give us three wrong ways to think of prayer.

By the way, there are different types of prayer. When we talk about prayer, we can talk about adoration. We can talk about asking for different things, like supplication, beseeching God for certain things. That's the type of prayer Aquinas is addressing in this particular article, okay? And so, when it comes to asking God for stuff, Aquinas says there are three wrong ways to think of it, and then he's going to lay out the right way we should think about it. So, here are the three wrong ways to think about prayer, okay? So, first, you might think, well, there is no such thing as divine providence, Okay. So you first, you might think, well, there is no such thing as divine providence. All right. The second wrong way to think about prayer is, well, there's no use in praying because everything's set in stone. The third wrong way to think about prayer is, okay, there

is such a thing as divine providence, but it's not set in stone. And so our prayer can change God's mind. So let's go through each of these. As I drink from my coffee. First, no divine providence. Okay, so he says, some held that human affairs are not ruled by divine providence. Whence it would follow that it is useless to pray and to worship God at all. Of these, it is written in Malachi, quote, you have said he laboreth in vain that

serveth God, end quote. All right. The second wrong way to think about prayer, as I say, is that everything's set in stone, so there's no point praying. And this is a sort of fatalist, I suppose, understanding of reality and God and therefore prayer. Aquinas says, therefore prayer, Aquinas says, another opinion held that all things, even in human affairs, happen of necessity, whether by reason or the unchangeableness of divine providence, or through the compelling influence of the stars, or on account of the connection of causes. And this opinion also excluded the utility of prayer. So, you notice that in this second point, he's including, say, atheists who might be fatalistic or is including those who may not be atheists, but think everything's set in stone. I'm thinking of the Epicureans, right? Who believed in something like God, right, some rational force behind the

universe, but it was unalterable. This is why we ought to choose Stoicism, say, because everything's going to happen the way it's going to happen, and you have no choice over the way things are going to happen, so you just have to grin and bear it the best that you can. All right. Here's the third wrong way to look at prayer, and that's to say, okay, there is such a thing as divine providence, but it's not set in stone. And this perhaps comes closest to the way I think a lot of people think about prayer. All right. And so here's what Aquinas says. There was a third opinion of those who held that human affairs are indeed ruled by divine providence and that they do not happen of necessity. Yet, they deemed the disposition of divine providence to be changeable.

And that is changed by prayer and other things pertaining to the worship of God. So, you see what Aquinas is saying there? He's saying that it's not your prayers that change God's mind because there is no change in God, right? I think sometimes people might hear this, right? There is no change in God. And they might think, isn't this understanding of God, that God doesn't change? Isn't this just sort of like an opinion held by Greek philosophers that made its way into Christianity? Because when we read the scriptures, it appears that God does change his mind on certain occasions. it appears that God does change his mind on certain occasions. Well, Aquinas and the church says, no, that isn't the case, right? That there are certain anthropomorphic ways of speaking about God, kind of like when we talk about the right arm of God or the hand of God or something like that. So too, when we talk about God in ways where it seems like he's changing his mind, but there is no change in God. That's why one of his attributes is that he is immutable.

And again, this isn't something we've just kind of come to an understanding of through philosophical reflection, though I think it is that as well. This is also in Holy Scripture. We can give a number of examples. One example comes from the letter of James, chapter 1, verse 17, where James writes, every good and perfect gift is from above, verse 17, where James writes, every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. Different translations say things like, He never changes, like the casting of shadows or the shifting of shadows. So, there is no change in God. Okay. Well, if there's no change in God, why bother praying? You know, everything's set in stone. So, how's he going to get around this? Because here are the three options, right? You either say like there's no divine providence

and we can pray, or you say, well, everything's determined and so there's no point praying, or you say, yes, God does guide the world, but you can change his mind through prayer. And Aquinas says, all of these are wrong. And what's funny is in this article, he says, all these opinions were disproved. And then he cites himself one, two, three, four, five, six times. I love it. So he says, here are the three different erroneous opinions people have held about prayer. All of these things have been disproved. And here are the footnotes. And they all refer back to different articles in the Summa Theologiae. All right. So what's he going to say then? What's he going to say to save us in our understanding of prayer? He says, and he understands that this is a problem. He says, wherefore it behooves us

so to account for the utility of prayer as neither to impose necessity on human affairs subject to divine providence, nor to imply changeableness on the part of the divine disposition. So, let me read his response and how he's going to sort this out and then I'll give some reflections on it. He says, in order to throw light on this question, we must consider the divine providence disposes not only what effects shall take place, but also from what causes and in what order these effects shall proceed. Now, among other causes, human acts are the causes of certain effects. Therefore, it must be that men do certain actions, not that thereby they may change the divine disposition, but that by those actions they

may achieve certain effects according to the order of the divine disposition. And the same is to be said of natural causes, and so is it with regard to prayer. For we pray not that we may change the divine disposition, but that we may impetrate that which God has disposed to be fulfilled by our prayer. In other words, that by asking, and here's a quote from Gregory, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has disposed to give. By the way, that word impetrate means to beg. So it's just asking, requesting of God. So, you know, the scripture that comes immediately to my mind is that of Genesis, where Abraham is pleading for Sodom. Let me see if I can find it here.

Here it is. Genesis chapter 18, beginning in verse 23. Now, keep in mind, we're talking of an immutable God, but in this passage, it doesn't seem to be the case. Abraham approached him, that is God, and said, will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are 50 righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the 50 righteous people in it? Far be you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the 50 righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you. Will not the judge of all the earth do right? The Lord said, if I find 50 righteous people in the city of Sodom,

I will spare the whole place for their sake. And then Abraham, like a Middle Eastern merchant, begins bargaining with God, right? It says, Abraham spoke up again, now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes. What if the number of the righteous is five less than 50? Will you destroy the whole city for the lack of five people? And God says, if I find 45 there, I will not destroy it. And, you know, Abraham keeps getting him lower and lower. And so it would appear, you know, he gets down to the, what about, what about if there's 10? What about just 10? And then he says, okay, well, for the sake of 10, I won't destroy it. And, you know, it's tempting to think that God's changing his mind here,

but he's not. And we learn why that's the case from what we read here in the Summa. So let's expand upon this a bit. I think here's the point that we want to make. When we talk about God's providence, right, we're usually thinking of God's effects, like something happened and we think, oh, that was God's providence. But it's not just the effect that was a result of God's providence. It's also the causes, the natural causes and supernatural as we talk about prayer or that supernatural is called upon through prayer. That's also part of God's providence. prayer. That's also part of God's providence. So, God's providence involves not only willing certain effects to take place, but also the causes from which those effects will be brought about.

All right? So, in other words, God wills a pattern of cause and effect relationships. So, you know, I was watching this last night, The Office. I'm sorry if you hate The Office and are scandalized that I find it funny, but I do. Do you remember that episode? It was from the fourth season. And Michael says, is the first episode, he says, Jan, he says, okay, well, I didn't get the job in New York, but I got the real prize, domestic bliss. Jan made me breakfast this morning. Well, she bought the milk. It's soy. Okay. What does that have to do with prayer? Well, here's the point, right? Whatever happens, we could say that God decreed from all eternity that that would happen. And so that's why I mentioned that bit from the office. So if this was something that actually happened, then it was decreed from all eternity that that would happen. And so, that's why I mentioned that bit from the office. So, if this was something that actually happened, then it was decreed from all eternity that Michael Scott would eat cereal with soy milk. But that doesn't make Jan's buying the milk unnecessary.

All right? So, it would be wrong to say, well, since God willed from all eternity that Michael Scott would have cereal with milk, that Jan therefore didn't need to buy it. It makes no difference whether or not, right? This would be a mistake because just as God has willed the effect of Michael eating cereal with soy milk, he has also willed that Jan, can you believe I'm using an office analogy to try and explain the summa? So, he has willed for all eternity that Jan should buy it and bring it home again to Michael, all right? So, again, God wills a pattern of cause-effect relationships, affect relationships. So, prayer, Aquinas is going to say, is simply one human action among any, just like Jan buying the soy milk, that God wills to be a cause of certain effects in his divine plan. Here's a quote from Brian Davies' book, Thinking About God. He says, quote,

God may will from eternity that things should come about as things prayed for by us. In other words, it's possible that God wills some events to occur only as a result of prayer. Does that make sense? So, if somebody asks you, please pray for my father with cancer, God may have decreed from all eternity that this man will be healed from cancer due to your prayers that you will pray. So, that's the way we ought to think about prayer, right? Our prayer, we shouldn't have this fatalistic understanding of prayer. God commands us to pray, and so we ought to pray. And right, so I think that's self-explanatory. I hope it is. Anyway, let's go through these three objections because they're rather short and then look at Aquinas' three answers. And after that, we're going to take a look at some of the questions

you've sent me over Patreon. So here's the first objection. It would seem that it's unbecoming to pray. Prayer seems to be necessary in order that we may make our needs known to the person to whom we pray. But according to Matthew 6.32, your father knoweth that you have need of all these things. Therefore, it's not becoming to pray. Excuse me, to God. That's a good point. Why pray to God if he already knows everything? What's the point? Aquinas says in one sentence, we need to pray to God, not in order to

make known to him our needs or desires, but that we ourselves may be reminded of the necessity of having recourse to God's help in these matters. Okay, fair enough. Well, here's the second objection you might think someone's saying. By prayer, we bend the mind of the person to whom we pray. By the way, let's just pause a moment here. I've mentioned this elsewhere in another podcast, but pray just means to ask in English. If you read Shakespeare, you'll see the contraction privy. And privy is a contraction of I pray thee. And so prayer isn't just something, at least etymologically in the old English, that we do to God, that we offer to God. It's things that we can offer to each other. And so that's why it's talking like when you pray to somebody, when you ask them something, this second objection is saying we bend

the mind of the person to whom we pray so that he may do what is asked of him. But God's mind is unchangeable and inflexible, according to 1 Samuel 15, 29, quote, but the triumvirate in Israel will not spare and will not be moved to repentance. Therefore, it is not fitting that we should pray to God. So, we've already addressed this issue, so has Aquinas, right? Like, why pray to God if you can't change his mind? There's no point. And here, Aquinas is going to refer back to the main article, the answer, rather, that I read to you. He says, as stated above, our motive in praying is not divine disposition. We may change the divine disposition, but that by our prayers,

we may obtain what God has appointed. And just to drive this point home, God may appoint certain effects because we will pray for them. Okay, here's the third objection. Further, it is more liberal to give to one that asks not than to one who asks because according to Seneca, nothing is bought more dearly than what is bought with prayers. But God is supremely liberal. Therefore, it would seem unbecoming to pray to God, right? In other words, God is liberal. Just let him give you what he wants to give you. And there's no point asking of him since he's supremely liberal. He's going to give it to you anyway.

And Aquinas says, God bestows many things on us out of his liberality, even without our asking for them. But that he wishes to bestow certain things on us at our asking is for the sake of our good, namely, that we may acquire confidence in having recourse to God, and that we may recognize in Him the author of our goods. Hence, Chrysostom says, think what happiness is granted thee, what honor bestowed on thee, when thou conversest with God in prayer, when thou takest with Christ, when thou askest what thou wilt, whatever thou desirest. Okay, so that there is the end of the article. By the way, we were reading from article two from question 83 out of the Secunda Secundae. So, you might want to look that up if you'd like to learn more. Again,

I'll put this in the show notes so you can read it there too. But if you're interested in learning more about what the Catholic Church has to say about prayer, check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church starting in paragraph 2623. I mentioned that Aquinas in this particular article is speaking only of perhaps prayer of petition, right? Where we beg God for something. But as the catechism says, there's different types of prayer, and we know this from sacred scripture, right? There's blessing and adoration, there's prayers of intercession, there's prayers of thanksgiving, there's just prayers of praise. We praise God for being God. So, you might want to look that up as well. Okay, now it's time for some of your questions.

as well. Okay, now it's time for some of your questions. All right, thank you for sending in your questions. If you want your question answered by me, you need to become a supporter of Pints with Aquinas on Patreon. Let me just tell you what you'll get if you decide to support Pints with Aquinas for $10 a month, okay? First, you'll get my new book on Aquinas' five ways, which I will sign and send to you for free. You just pay for the shipping. I'll also give you a special code for Amazon so you can get the ebook right away. I'm going to begin doing weekly videos that are just exclusive for you, different sort of philosophical and theological insights that you can get once a week. Again, that'll just be for you. You'll also have access to an ever-growing library of audio content interviews I've done. You'll also have access to an ever-growing library

of audio books that I'm doing, like books of Thomas Aquinas that you can listen to. I've actually had recorded professionally, encyclicals and so forth. And you'll also have access to our monthly live stream events. So it would mean a lot if you would choose to support me. Go to pintswithaquinas.com, click support, and there you can join the Pints with Aquinas tribe. All right. So now having said that, let's get to some of your questions. My apologies if you have written me a question and I haven't gotten to you right away. Sometimes I lose track as to what I've answered and what I haven't, but let's have a look here. Okay. Glenn Dickinson says, sorry, if you've already done this one, do animals have eternal

souls or will Fluffy be in heaven with me or just another dog who looks like Fluffy? And with all the joys of heaven, will I care? That's a great question, Glenn. I actually did a podcast on this recently. So you might want to go back over the last few that I've done and listen to that. But essentially, Aquinas says that no, animals don't have eternal souls. So everything that is living has a soul. So plants have vegetative souls, animals have sensitive souls, and human persons, maybe aliens if there are any that are rational, have rational souls. So Aquinas says only we will be in heaven. If we are in heaven or hell rather, maybe, maybe, one way or the other.

Will your dog be in heaven? Aquinas says no, but I don't see any reason to think there won't be animals in heaven. But at least according to Aquinas, your particular dog won't be in heaven. And as you say, well, all the joys in heaven, will I care? And the answer is no. I used this analogy in the recent episode, didn't I? I said, you know, asking how could I possibly be happy in heaven if my dog's not with me is like a child who is just learning about sexual relations in marriage, saying, how will I enjoy sexual relations if I don't get to eat candy while I do it? And you'd say to the kid, I don't want to

say kid, I guess I mean 10 years old, 11, 12, whatever, whatever the appropriate age is to discuss this topic with him. You'd say, well, believe me, when you're actually engaged in sexual relations, you won't care about candy. And I think the same thing could be said when you're in heaven, you won't care about fluffy. So thanks for that. Sean, g'day mate. You say, Matt, Marvel or DC? Also, which superhero do you think best illustrates the Christ figure of the Bible? I am a DC fan. I'm a DC fan. I'd say DC over Marvel. One of my favorite graphic novels is Kingdom Come by, I forget the author's name, but the illustrator is Alex Ross, who is a brilliant illustrator. Seriously, if you're out there

and you want to get into comic books, get the graphic novel Kingdom Come. Alex Ross is the illustrator. So if you just look up Kingdom Come and Ross, you'll find it. But yeah, it's absolutely phenomenal. Who would be the Christ figure? I mean, I guess you'd have to go with Superman, wouldn't you? It's really unfortunate to me that all of these different superheroes have these playboy personas like Hal Jordan in Green Lantern and even Batman and so forth. But I think Superman shows us that you can be virtuous and that that makes you massively strong. It doesn't make you a pansy, shall we say. And so his optimism, you know, he's optimistic. He's not jaded, is he, like Batman, but that doesn't make him naive. So yeah, I'd say Superman would be my answer to that. So

thanks for the question, Sean. All right. Let's see what else we got here. Dr. Stefan Kachala, apologies if I got that name wrong. Thank you, Stefan, for supporting me on Pints of the Quietness. You say, I was raised Ukrainian Orthodox, but due to my father's faith, joined the Ukrainian Catholic Church. I also would like tips on how to help engage my three sons in their life of faith. They are six and four and six months. We've begun attending a local Roman Catholic parish, first because the children complained that the divine liturgy was too long, and then because they demanded to attend the children's gospel that was held. While it is my delight to hear, Dad, drive faster, we're going late to church, I actually find myself pining for the divine

liturgy, the incense, even have the priest face ad orientum. There is a Ukrainian Catholic parish that we have been trying to attend, but the distance is a little much, not to mention the complaints in the attending church, Ukrainian, la la la. Thank you for all that you do. Thanks for your question. I am with you, Stefan. I attend a Byzantine Catholic church. Ukrainian, la la la. Thank you for all that you do. Thanks for your question. I am with you, Stefan. I attend a Byzantine Catholic church. Recently, my wife and I have moved to the mountains of North Georgia. We sold our home in the suburbs and trying to live a little more simply. So it's extremely difficult for us to get to the Byzantine church, which crushes me quite honestly. I mean, both are equal in dignity, right? We all agree on that. And yet one becomes home,

doesn't it? And the other is no longer home. And so I absolutely hear you. You know, this might, well, this is manipulation, but this is bribery too, but here might be one way you bribe your kids. If you want to go to the Ukrainian church and you think that's what's best for your kids, first of all, bribe them with food afterwards. It's been surprising with my kids. They'll want to go to this church, which I think is hokey and awful, just felt banners and kumbaya and bad jokes from the pulpit. Sorry, but there you go. There's my honest opinion. My kids might want to go there for just trivial reasons. Usually, kids do have trivial reasons as to why they want to go to church. I wonder if you were to say to them, well, when we go to the

Ukrainian Catholic church, we always stop by this donut place on the way home, but we can't do that if we go into the Roman church, you know, bribe them a little bit because I think it's quite surprising, you know, like kids be like, oh yeah, totally. Whatever has the better food I'm down with. But yeah, I'm with you. I think we have to give our children a liturgy that fosters and take seriously the tremendous hunger of God that we all naturally have. And that might be a Roman Catholic parish. It might be one that's celebrated well, like a Latin mass or even a Novus Ordo that's celebrated with tremendous dignity the way it ought to be celebrated, but very often it isn't, and it's awful for me. It breaks my heart. I go with this yearning for Jesus Christ, and I feel it trivialized when it's like, okay, let's greet everybody around us,

and let's play these terrible songs, and let's make jokes, and let's talk throughout the church. I'm like, this isn't it, man. I can't do this. And I don't want to raise my kids in that. I want to raise them in a sacred environment where they know it's different, you know, where people aren't shuffling around the place like it's a 7-Eleven, but this is sacred ground. And there's no reason that you can't find a Roman Catholic parish that is like that, okay? But if it's your desire and your wife's desire to return to this Ukrainian Catholic church, do it and forgive me. I'm sure there's some people who are offended that I'm telling you to bribe your kids, but whatever. I don't care. I'd bribe my kids because I'd say to myself, okay, I think I know what's best for them. I want them to experience the

incense and the chant and the seriousness of this liturgy as opposed to perhaps this other one where you didn't explain, but maybe there isn't such seriousness. Well, God bless and good luck. As far as how to engage them, live your faith well. Let them see you praying at night. Let them see you praying in the morning. Get up early. Light your candles before your icons and chant. Let them see it in you. Be gentle with them and love them and delight in them. delight in them. Believe me, Stefan, these are questions that, these are comments that I'm making to myself as well. I am a bad father at times and want to be good. And that's the advice I'd give myself. All right, here is a question from Adrian Boudreau. He says, I've been seeing conflicting information on using contemporary band style worship music in mass. More traditionally minded people say the church teaches explicitly that it's not appropriate, while others, more liberal, say it's permitted. Sacrosanctum Concilium from the Second Vatican Council says Gregorian chant holds the highest place, but nothing explicitly written

about what is not permitted in the liturgy. I personally feel conflicted about it, as I see both sides. Does the church have anything to say about this? And by the church, I don't mean the ruminations of a theologian or personal preference of a pope. So, I actually spoke about this. It was funny. We just pretty much, we kind of addressed this a little bit, didn't we, Adrian, with Stefan's question, but I'm with you. I mean, I want sacredness, and I think young people do. This is a really interesting tension, I think, between those who are much older than us, maybe in their 70s, where they grew up with the Latin mass, right? And for them, for some of them, right? And I'm thinking of certain priests, they do not understand

why young people, and I'm not that young, I suppose, but compared to them, I am, why young people long for the sacred, why they long for tradition, why they long for the rubrics, the liturgy, the structure of the mass. And from their point of view, I think they would say, look, there was no life in it. We were just doing all these things. No one understood it. Now we understand it. And all you people want to go back. And I think from our point of view, I think y'all would agree with me, Adrian and Stefan, we'd say we weren't raised with any heritage. No one gave us tradition. I didn't even know what the rosary was until I was 17 years old. I thought it was a necklace. We'd thrown it all out, and what did we exchange it for? And so, I think the goal, isn't it, is to have this faith in which we do draw upon the sacramentals of the church and sacred music and yet do it with meaning. But as far as what does the church say,

I think you were right to point to Sacrosanctum Concilium. I think that's the most official document when it comes to the liturgy. And so, but then what are you going to do with that? You might bring it to your pastor, but I mean, who cares? I mean, let's say the church has said something official because it has, Sacrosanctum Concilium. The next question is, what are you going to do with that? You might bring it to your pastor, but I mean, who cares? I mean, let's say the church has said something official because it has, sacrosanct concilium. The next question is, what are you going to do with it? And who's going to care? So, you know, my understanding is that the church permits, I like to think of it like the church encourages, let's put it this way, there are certain things that the church demands. There are certain things that the church demands. There are certain things that the church encourages. There are certain things the church permits. And there are certain things the church forbids. All right. So I'm just thinking about this right now. So let me write this down.

So there are certain things that the church demands, right? There are certain things it encourages. There are certain things it permits. And there are certain things that it forbids. And I think very, very often we have this sort of black or white view, is the church for it or against it? So, we can think of things that the church demands, okay? And that would be like attending liturgy or holy mass on Sunday and days of obligation, all right? So, the church demands that of you. As far as encourages, we could put perhaps the holy rosary, all right? So, the church encourages us to pray the rosary, but it doesn't demand it. I think then there are things that the church permits, and I think communion in the hand would be one of these things. The church permits it. I wouldn't say that the church encourages it, and I wouldn't

say that the church demands it, and I wouldn't say that the church forbids it. And then there are certain things that the church forbids, and that would be things like female priests, forbids, and that would be things like female priests, or you could think of all sorts of things there. So, the question, therefore, is what's this music, band-style worship, where would that fit in? Is this something that the church is demanding? Clearly not. Is it something the church is encouraging? I would say no, not in her official documents. Well, therefore, is it something that the church is permitting or forbidding? And I think we'd have to come down on the side of it permits it. It permits it. It doesn't forbid it. If it forbid it, you and I would know about it, but we don't know about it. Therefore, you and I, I know, Adrian, you're

plugged in like I am. So, I would say that the church doesn't demand Gregorian chant, but it encourages it. And so for that reason, you might approach your pastor and suggest that you begin to, even if you were doing some simple chant and not yet Gregorian chant, that might be a place to start. So that was a long-winded answer, Adrian, but I do hope it was a help. All right, let's take one more question here. And this comes from Caitlin. You say, hi, Matt, I'm a convert and I have a question to which I never got a really straight answer. What is the deal with the Orthodox? It's funny, all these questions having to do with Byzantine and Latin right churches. Why are we separated and how did that happen?

In a different and more relevant sense, how does one go about finding a Byzantine church to visit for mass? Anything I should know before going. All right. So, the question as to the split between Orthodoxy and the Catholic church is a long discussion that I'm not going to get into here, just because we don't have the time. But as far as, you know, there are different churches all in union with Rome. There are like 20 or so churches that are in union with Rome. The Byzantine church, so if you were to go to a Byzantine liturgy, okay, because it's, we don't, they don't call it mass, right? Because mass comes from the Latin, missa est, right? And so, it didn't arise in a Latin culture, but in a Greek culture. So, divine liturgy is what it's referred to, not mass. That's just a small

point there. But you might look up in your area, like Byzantine Catholic Church in your area, and hopefully there is one and you can attend. Now, you say, what should you know before going? Okay, a couple of things. One, there's no genuflecting and there's no kneeling. And when I say no, it's not like anyone's going to punish you for doing this. But just so you understand, right, there's no kneeling. Instead of kneeling, there's a lot of standing. In fact, in traditional Byzantine churches and Orthodox churches, there are no pews because you're not supposed to be sitting. It's just a lot of standing.

So you'll walk into the Byzantine church and you'll just stand in your pew. And that's how you pray. Even after you receive Holy Eucharist, you don't then go back and kneel. You go back and stand. So that's just a small thing because standing is also a sign of respect. Okay. So it's just not part of the tradition. Now here's something you ought to know. When you receive Holy Eucharist at a Byzantine church, they don't give you a wafer like they do in the Latin church. Rather, they spoon feed you. The beautiful golden spoon, you'll have a little red handkerchief under you. And what you do is you kind of, you squat a little on both knees, put your hands

across your chest, sort of like in the Western church when you're going to receive a blessing. And then you open up your mouth, but you don't put your tongue out. You just open it up and then they're going to spoon feed the Eucharist into your mouth. And the reason I'm kind of laughing as I talk about this is I went to a Byzantine church for so long that when I finally went to a daily mass somewhere, I went and knelt down at the communion rail and opened my mouth with my tongue, you know, not out. And you can imagine the shock of the priest who's like, okay, this guy's just got his mouth wide open and I've got to somehow flick the Holy Eucharist, place the Holy Eucharist into his gob. So that was kind of funny.

But that might be a bit of a help. Thank you, Caitlin. All right, guys, there are a lot more questions that you have answered and that I want to get to, but we're not going to have time today. Thank you to everybody who has supported Pines to the Corners on Patreon. Quite honestly, thank you. I got some big plans coming up and I'm planning on announcing them really soon, hopefully next week. And so it means a lot that you're supporting me because it means I'm able to do a whole lot of things I wouldn't be able to do without you. So if you want to support Pints with Aquinas on Patreon, go to pintswithaquinas.com,

click support, give me 10 bucks a month and know that you're supporting something really awesome. God bless you all and look forward to chatting with you next week. To carry you, to carry you And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you And I would give my whole life To carry you, to carry you