Pints With Aquinas - BONUS: Are we bound to correct Pope Francis?

Starting point is 00:00:00 G'day and welcome. So just like in America, how you have the, hey there, like the kind of news reporter thing. We have the same thing in Australia. It's just like an over-the-top, hey, g'day there, welcome to Abides with Aquinas. And sometimes that comes out. I don't know why I'm telling you this. Here's what today's show is about. I want to talk about what fraternal correction is and whether

Starting point is 00:00:28 it's good, whether it's an act of charity. We're going to look at what Aquinas has to say. Then I want to see what Aquinas has to say about whether or not we should correct priests, bishops, including the Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome. I want to look in particular about the recent events that happened where journalist Scalfory said that Pope Francis denied the divinity of Christ. We're going to get into that. What should our response be as Catholics? I hope that this is helpful. It certainly is vulnerable. Can I just say that? This is like a vulnerable episode where I'm just as honest as I know how to be. So we're going to talk about a bunch of those things. Also, when we talk about fraternal correction, I'm going to be speaking about my wife and I. So this will be in the beginning of the episode. I want to talk about how we reconcile with each other, what we do to fraternally correct each other and to reconcile. And so there should be some good marriage advice in there. Also, I want to talk about, unfortunately, one of the gravest abuses of the blessed sacrament that I

Starting point is 00:01:30 have ever encountered in my life. I don't think I have ever shared this story publicly, but it happened while I was ministering in Ireland. And so we'll get into that. All right. Hey, I like you. I mean, I don't know you. I mean, I might know you. If I don't know you, if I did know you, I think I would like you. Welcome to Pints with Aquinas. This is the show where you and I pull up a barstool next to the angelic doctor to discuss theology and philosophy. Today I want to talk about fraternal correction, whether it's an act of charity. I want to see what Thomas Aquinas has to say about correcting prelates, that is to say, not only priests but bishops, and as I already said, the Bishop of Rome. So this should be fun.

Starting point is 00:02:26 By the way, before I forget, my sister and I are coming out with a podcast called Sibling Horror. Forgive me. If you don't like horror, then you are not interested in what I'm talking about. But yeah, my sister and I have been writing these short horror stories

Starting point is 00:02:43 and we're paying somebody to record them so you don't have to listen to my voice Um, but my, yeah, my sister and I have been writing these short horror stories and, uh, we're paying somebody to record them. So you don't have to listen to my voice telling you a scary story. So that'll be fun. So I'll put a link in the show notes, click that sibling horror. That's what you want to check out. Um, if you, if you're into that kind of stuff, if you're not, you know, all good, you know, all good.

Starting point is 00:03:03 We should do a whole separate episode responding to those who want to say that horror is, you know, per se, not okay. But that's not what we're talking about. Today, we want to talk about fraternal correction. All right. So, here's what I want to do. I want to begin in the Secunda Secundae, question 33. Let's see here. Yes. Let's look at article one first, whether or not fraternal correction is an act of charity. I want to begin though by sharing with you how I and my friends ask each other for forgiveness. And in particular, I want to talk about the time that I served as a missionary with NET Ministries up in Canada. NET stands for National Evangelization Teams.

Starting point is 00:03:53 They began in the US up in Minnesota. They then, I think, were in Australia and then Canada. I was on the first team that went to Ireland. They're also now in Uganda. So I just throw that out there. If you are beneath the ages of 30 and you want to go spend a year in Ireland proclaiming the gospel, like if you hate sun, but love Jesus and like Guinness, you could spend a year traveling Ireland. That's what I did. That's how I met my wife. You go to Australia. First time I ever met a net team was in Australia. I was working as a checkout boy. I was going to say chick, but it's probably offensive, I guess. Everything's offensive these days. And after my shift at Woolworths, where I used to work,

Starting point is 00:04:39 I thought, well, gee, where should I go pray? Should I go home or should I go pray at the church? I went to the church and there was this big white van, a couple of surfboards strapped to the roof. I'm like, what is going on? And it was this net team. They were traveling around Australia, running retreats in high schools and then surfing in their off time. Let me just see that net Australia. Oh, let's see here. Here we go. Go to netministries.com.au. You can check them out. Anyway, this is not meant to be a sales pitch, but the point is on net, at least when I was doing it in Canada, they talk a lot about conflict resolutions. Because I think we've been raised to be like, hey, please, we don't actually say, please forgive me. Actually,

Starting point is 00:05:22 we've been raised to sort of say, hey, yeah, like, sorry, I did that. And then what does the other person say? Yeah, it's cool. Like, it's okay. Like, no worries. Right? Isn't that what we do? It's cool. It's okay. No worries. Something like that. But when you think about it, if someone's actually offended you and they're in the wrong, it's not okay. The reason they're saying sorry is ought to be precisely because they recognize that it isn't okay. That it's not cool, actually. So it was this weird shift, like we got into teams of 12 and we had to live very closely with each other for the whole year. It's so funny, you know, before you serve with these missionaries, you think, what could we possibly disagree about? We both love Jesus and coffee and beer,

Starting point is 00:06:11 you know, like it's going to be great. And it was great. But when you live that closely with people, I mean, you're doing retreats like five days a week sometimes. You're living in host homes, you barely get a break from these people. Sometimes just the way they squeeze their toothpaste makes you want to slap them. I can't explain it. The point is, you know, we learn, I mean, they had to teach us how to do fraternal correction. All right. So say I did something wrong. That person would approach me and say, hey, you did this and here's why that wasn't okay. Okay. And then I and say, hey, you did this, and here's why that wasn't okay. And then I would say, okay, please forgive me. I would ask those words. I wouldn't say, ah, okay, yeah, no, I shouldn't have done that. Sorry. I mean, that would be something, but I'm

Starting point is 00:06:58 asking their forgiveness. Now, it might be the case that they bring something up. I'm like, yeah, that was fine. I don't think I need to ask forgiveness for that. I'm not sorry at all. But generally speaking, if you were me, you did something wrong and you should have asked forgiveness. So I'd be like, oh, yeah, please forgive me. And they'd look at you and here's what they have to say, presuming they forgive you. They say, I forgive you. That's pretty cool.

Starting point is 00:07:21 So you're not like, yeah, sorry about that. No worries. It's, yeah, it's please forgive me. I forgive you. So this is something my wife and I have brought into our marriage. We have conflict resolutions a lot. My wife and I have extremely, how do you say, intense personalities. And it's just important. I don't know, sometimes I meet these people, they seem to have the personality of a golden retriever. And I think, can you bite me and give me whatever the heck it is you have? My wife and I are very intense people, and I love my wife, and I'm glad the way the Lord made me. But it does mean we have to apologize quite a bit.

Starting point is 00:08:01 I meet some married couples, like, we never fight. I'm like, oh my gosh. I don't doubt you, but I do hate you. Please forgive me for hating you. Something like that. So anyway, very regularly, please forgive me. I forgive you. So I reckon you should bring that into your marriage. If you're married and you don't do that, start bloody doing it. In the beginning, it'll feel super awkward, but there are things worse than awkward, such as not actually saying I forgive you. Because the thing is, if you say I forgive you, you're still allowed to kind of distrust that person. Do you know what I mean? Like if somebody in my team kept doing the same thing, like making fun of me, no one did that, right? Because I'm super cool. But they made fun of me again and again, and I keep forgiving them. It doesn't mean I have to trust them, but I have forgiven them. So I can't kind of bring things up that

Starting point is 00:08:51 have happened in the past. All right, I'll just throw that out there, because I think that's a cool way to do fraternal correction that maybe we don't do. But let's look at what Aquinas has to say in the Secunda Secundae, question 33 on fraternal correction. This is article one. Here's what Aquinas says. To correct the wrongdoer is a spiritual arms deed. So of course, when he's talking about fraternal correction, we're not yet talking about forgiveness. I understand that. We're talking about, you should not have done this. Like, is that really an act of charity? It feels super awful, right? But Aquinas in the said Contra says, to correct the wrongdoer is a spiritual alms deed, but alms deeds are works of charity. Therefore, fraternal correction is an act of charity. Freaking love how Aquinas writes in syllogisms A syllogism has two premises and a conclusion

Starting point is 00:09:47 It is a deductive argument If the premises are true, the conclusion must follow And that's how Aquinas writes, right? To correct the wrongdoer is a spiritual alms deed Premise one Premise two But alms deeds are works of charity Conclusion

Starting point is 00:10:02 Boom Therefore, to correct a brother is an act of charity, conclusion, boom. Therefore, to correct a brother is an act of charity, even though it might feel super gross. Aquinas says, the correction of the wrongdoer is a remedy which should be employed against a man's sin. Now, a man's sin may be considered in two ways. First, as being harmful to the sinner. Secondly, as conducing to the harm of others by hurting or scandalizing them, or by being detrimental to the common good, the justice of which is disturbed by that man's sin. Consequently, the correction of a wrongdoer is twofold. One, which applies a remedy to the sin considered as an evil of the sinner himself. This is fraternal correction, properly so-called,

Starting point is 00:10:53 which is directed to the amendment of the sinner. Now, to do away with anyone's evil is the same as to procure his good. How lovely is that line? Did you bloody well hear that line? Listen, to do away with anyone's evil is the same as to procure his good. If I stop you from sinning, I have done you a good, right? I've done good to you. And Aquinas continues, and to procure a person's good is an act of charity whereby we wish and do our friend well. Good is an act of charity whereby we wish and do our friend well. Consequently, fraternal correction also is an act of charity because thereby we drive out our brother's evil, the removal of which pertains to charity rather than the removal of an external loss or of a bodily injury, insomuch as the contrary good of virtue is more akin to charity than the good of the body or of external things. Therefore, fraternal correction is an act of charity. Rather than the healing of a bodily infirmity or the relieving of an external bodily need, there is

Starting point is 00:11:58 another correction which applies a remedy to the sin of the wrongdoer, considered as hurtful to others and especially to the common good. This correction is an act of justice, whose concern it is to safeguard the rectitude of justice between one man and another. Okay. You know, we often hear, you know, love the sinner, hate the sin. Aquinas is saying that. Because you love somebody, you should correct them. And that is an act of charity. All right. I want to look at whether we should or can legitimately correct prelates. And I think when it comes to correcting prelates, there's two sides that we could not want to go, right? There's two ditches on either side of the correct path that we want to walk down if we need to, right? So, like, one is just to say,

Starting point is 00:12:51 like, you should never publicly correct a bishop, a cardinal, a pope, your priest. You should never do that because if you do that, you're causing scandal and people have a whole litany of reasons for why you shouldn't do it, right? This, I think, is really unfortunate because, you know, when I used to work at Catholic Answers, I would often chat with Protestants, you know, and the Protestants would, you know, object to papal infallibility. And as any good Catholic apologist knows, infallibility. And as any good Catholic apologist knows, you want to help the evangelical understand the difference between people, say, infallibility and impeccability. And we would always say this, you know, at Catholic Answers, we're not saying, you know, that the Pope is not a sinner, you know. We're not saying that everything that comes out of the Pope's mouth is spot on,

Starting point is 00:13:45 right? That's not what we're saying. A Pope can be a sinner, you know, and're not saying that everything that comes out of the Pope's mouth is spot on, right? That's not what we're saying. A Pope can be a sinner, you know, and this and that. But what's sad is it's funny now, I think with Pope Francis and all the confusion that he is creating and some of the like things that he says, which I think are objectionable, you have people saying, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't, you can't criticize him. So it's kind of like, if I were an evangelical out there, I'd be confused. I'm like, wait, because you just said

Starting point is 00:14:09 it's okay that he's not perfect. So he's not perfect, right? And then you have a bunch of people saying, we can't say that in any way, shape or form. On the other end of the spectrum, I think the other pit we don't want to fall into is being disrespectful to the Holy Father, fall into is being disrespectful to the Holy Father, who is the successor of Peter. To refer to Pope Francis as Bergoglio, I think is really disrespectful. So I think people can talk about the Pope in a disrespectful way. By the way, I just want to clarify this because I think some people are going to think, oh yeah, he's talking about Michael Voris, right? He speaks about him in a disrespectful way. No, that's not what I'm doing. I don't think that at all, actually. I think Michael Voris is like a solid journalist. And I haven't looked into all the claims that he

Starting point is 00:14:52 has made about different issues. I suppose he's off on some, just like most journalists might be on some. I really don't know. But whenever I've heard him speak about Pope Francis, let's say, I think he's done it with respect. By the way, I did an interview with Michael Voris on YouTube at one point. This was, it was sort of like, gosh, it was a while back now. The whole point, you remember if you watched it at the start of the video, you can go on my YouTube channel and see it. I said something like, I hear a lot of people criticizing Michael Voris for being angry and la la la. And I said, stop doing that. It's an ad hominem. It's an ad hominem to say, don't listen to this guy because he's such and such. If he's saying something incorrect, why don't you start like a WordPress blog? That won't take you long. Figure it out. And then dedicate that blog to exposing the lies and distortions and half-truths of Michael Boris.

Starting point is 00:15:47 Like, I have to be honest. It pisses me off when I hear people criticize him for his tone. And I get that tone is a legitimate issue when it comes to communicating something that's good. Okay? I get that you can be critical of someone's tone. I get it. But when people completely dismiss a person for their tone, I don't think that's okay. I think that really kind of amounts to an ad hominem. Ad hominem is a Latin phrase, which means against the man. It's one of the number one, perhaps the number one kind

Starting point is 00:16:14 of logical fallacy on the internet where you reject what a person is saying because of who they are. And so when I hear people doing this, I just think, okay, fine, start your own account. And so when I hear people doing this, I just think, okay, fine, start your own account. And I'm sure knowing Michael as much as I do, I don't know him terribly well, but I think he'd be very much open to you criticizing him if he's actually wrong about things. So do that instead of just talking about how angry he is. Anyway, that's a side note. So that's not who I'm talking about, but I think when people can talk very disrespectfully about Pope Francis, you know, like I had a guy come up to me after a talk, because I said we should pray for the Holy Father. And he said, and this is not a lie. I'm not making this up to make people who are like against Francis seem more bad than they are or something.

Starting point is 00:17:02 He actually came up and said, I will never pray for him. I said, what? He said, no, I will never pray for him. There was hatred in this man's tone and in his eyes. I said, okay, well, even if Pope Francis is someone you consider as your enemy, the Lord Jesus Christ has commanded you to pray for your enemy. So if you will not pray for him, has commanded you to pray for your enemy. So if you will not pray for him, because he is the Pope of Rome, the Bishop of Rome, the Pope of Rome, you should pray for him, at least if he's your enemy. And so that is clearly the other kind of pitfall we kind of don't want to fall into. So let's have a look here at Article 5. 5? No, 4. Yeah. Whether a man is bound to correct his prelate. That is quite strong language, bound. Not just whether it's a good idea. That's not what Aquinas is addressing here. He's saying like whether you have an obligation to. So let's read the three objections

Starting point is 00:18:02 because I, and these are things he's going to respond to, because I suspect this is something we may have heard quite regularly. And just, you know, since we're going to be talking a little bit about Pope Francis, let's just slip him here, where we talk about the prelate, you know. It would seem that no man is bound to correct his prelate. No man is bound to correct his prelate. For it is written, the beast that shall touch the mount shall be stoned. In Exodus 19.12. And in 2 Samuel 6.7. It is related that our Lord struck Uzzah for touching the ark.

Starting point is 00:18:39 Now the mount and the ark signify our prelates. Therefore, prelates should not be corrected. They're beyond reproach. You should not touch them with any negative speech. That's one objection. Here's the other objection. We see a gloss in Galatians chapter 2, I withstood him to the face as an equal. Therefore, since a subject is not equal to his prelate, he ought not to correct him. In other words, if somebody says, look, in Galatians chapter two, we see a very clear evidence of Paul correcting the first Pope. We read this in verse 11, but when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. That's pretty strong, hey? Not only is Paul correcting him to his face, but then he's writing about it in a letter, you know, and saying and justifying why he did just

Starting point is 00:19:36 that. So, in a gloss, like that is to say, like someone adding to this, a glossary, you know, as an equal, right? And so, you know, okay, so fine. So fine. Okay. Maybe Paul can correct Peter because they're both apostles, but you, layman that you are, ought not to correct a bishop or a priest or the Pope of Rome, you know? That's the second objection. Here's the third objection. Gregory says that one ought not to presume to reprove the conduct of holy men unless one thinks better of oneself. But one ought not to think better of oneself than of one's prelate. Therefore, one ought not to correct one's prelate. By the way, if you haven't guessed already, Aquinas is going to say that one can be bound to correct a prelate, by which he means priest,

Starting point is 00:20:26 bishop, or pope. And we'll see why that's the case in a second. Here's the said contra. Augustine says in his rule, show mercy not only to yourselves, but also to him who, being in the higher position among you, is therefore in greater danger. But fraternal correction is a work of mercy, says Aquinas, therefore even prelates ought to be corrected. Here is the respondio, then we'll look at the objections. A subject is not competent to administer to his prelate the correction, which is an act of justice, through the coercive nature of punishment. So you can't punish your priest or your bishop, perhaps not in a place canonically to do such a thing, obviously.

Starting point is 00:21:10 But the fraternal correction, which is an act of charity, is within the competency of everyone in respect of any person towards whom he is bound by charity, provided there be something in that person which requires correction. So in other words, you are not competent as a lay person or as a priest to administer a correction to your bishop or to the Holy Father. Canonically, you're not in a place to do that. But the fraternal correction, which is an act of charity as opposed to justice, is actually within the competency of everyone. That includes you, listener, since you probably fall into that category of everyone. But only if there is something in that person you wish to correct, Um, but only if there is something in that person you wish to correct,

Starting point is 00:22:10 right, that actually needs to be corrected. Obviously, if you're trying to correct somebody for something they haven't done wrong, you'd be in the wrong, especially if this is something you've done publicly. Now, an act which proceeds from a habit or power extends to whatever is contained under the object of that power or habit. Thus, vision extends to all things comprised in the object of sight. Since, however, a virtuous act needs to be moderated by due circumstances, it follows that when a subject corrects his prelate, He ought to do so in a becoming matter, not with impudence and harshness, but with gentleness and respect. Hence the apostle says in 1 Timothy 5.1, An ancient man rebuke not, but entreat him as a father. treat him as a father. Wherefore, Dionysius finds fault with the monk Demophilus for rebuking a priest with insolence by striking and turning him out of the church. There's one way to do it.

Starting point is 00:23:18 All right, let's look at these three objections and we'll then look at the three responses. So you remember this first objection was this whole idea that the mount, which if you touch died, or the ark, which if you touch died, represents the priest, and that's why we shouldn't criticize them. Aquinas says, it would seem that a subject touches his prelate inordinately when he upbraids him with insolence, as also when he speaks ill of him, and this is signified by God's condemnation of those who touch the mount and the ark. Okay. So, if you speak about a prelate in a disrespectful way, you know, with insolence, say, yeah, in that sense, you ought not to do that.

Starting point is 00:23:58 Now, when Aquinas says, as also when he speaks ill of him, ill of him is not synonymous with correcting him. If it were, if to correct a prelate was to speak ill of him, if to correct a prelate publicly was to speak ill of him, then you ought not to correct prelates, but that's the very thing Aquinas is trying to make the argument for, that you can and sometimes ought to. Here's the second objection. This is going to be very interesting. And this comes here, the idea that one ought not to presume to, sorry, this has to do with St. Paul, withstanding him to his face. And the whole point is like, he was an equal and that's why it was okay. So here's what Aquinas says. Listen carefully to this. To withstand anyone in public exceeds the mode of fraternal correction.

Starting point is 00:24:50 And so Paul would not have withstood Peter then unless he were in some way his equal as regards the defense of the faith. But one who is not an equal, listen to this, can reprove privately and respectfully. Now, I have seen this taken out of context online. I actually looked this up. I was researching this before this episode, and I've seen people who say, yes, here's what Aquinas says. You can object to a prelate. You can publicly correct them if you're their equal. But look what Aquinas says here. He says, if one is not an equal, he can reprove privately and respectfully. And so the conclusion of this blog post was, if you're a bishop, you can correct the pope, or if you're a priest, you can correct a priest. But if you're not an equal, you can do it privately and respectfully, but it has to be

Starting point is 00:25:46 privately, basically. And so the person built this whole argument on this line, which basically said, you dear lay person may not publicly correct, say, a bishop or Pope Francis, because look, Aquinas says it right here. Since you're not an equal, you can't do it. But then I looked up the article and I saw that that is actually not at all what Aquinas was saying. So let's read that again here, okay? Because you've got to be careful here. To withstand anyone in public exceeds the mode of fraternal correction. So Paul would not have withstood Peter then unless he were in some way his equal as regards to the defense of faith. But one who is not an equal can reprove privately and respectfully. Hence the apostle, in writing to the Colossians, tells them to admonish their prelate. Say to Archippus, fulfill thy ministry.

Starting point is 00:26:42 This is coming from 2 Timothy 4-5. Now listen to this. endangered. A subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. There you are. It must be observed, however, that if the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Hence, Paul, who was Peter's subject, rebuked him in public on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning faith. And as the gloss of Augustine says on Galatians 2.11, Peter gave an example to superiors that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects. It's funny, hey? Like you really have to look. As I say, this whole blog post was based on that one line. And I was like, oh, okay, wow. Aquinas says that a subject should only reprove

Starting point is 00:27:52 privately. That is not at all the point of this second objection. He's saying if the faith is endangered, a subject not just could or is allowed to, but ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Let's quickly look at the third objection, and then let's talk specifically about Pope Francis. Further, Gregory says that one ought not to presume to reprove the conduct of holy men unless one thinks better of oneself, right? So, you know, if you're going to criticize Pope Francis on this podcast, Matt, or if, you know, whoever, Taylor Marshall, Michael Voris, whoever, then the only way they should be able to do that is if they think they're better than this person. Here is the reply to the objection. To presume oneself to be simply better than one's prelate would seem to savour of presumptuous pride.

Starting point is 00:28:48 But there is no presumption in thinking oneself better in some respect, because in this life, no man is without fault. We must also remember that when a man reproves his prelate charitably, it does not follow that he thinks himself any better, but merely that he offers his help to one who, being in the higher position among you, is therefore in greater danger, as Augustine observes in his rule quoted above. All right, so that kind of brings us to what I want to just discuss briefly. Like the whole Scalfory, the atheist journalist who interviewed Pope Francis recently and his remarks kind of sent ripples through the Catholic blogosphere. I was waiting to comment on this because like you, I only knew what was being kind of told to me. But here's the claim of Scalfory and then what the Vatican said in

Starting point is 00:29:47 response. So Scalfory has had interviews with Pope Francis in the past. He is, I guess, known now for not actually taking notes in his interview. And so his interviews aren't thought to be very reliable. So, you know, in the past, Pope Francis sat for an interview with Scalfory and seemed to have said, according to Scalfory, that people are, you know, do not suffer eternal conscious torment in hell as the church has always and continues to teach, but rather they kind of wink out of existence or go out of existence entirely. Now, so he would be a criticism. If I sit down with an atheist journalist who misrepresents my teaching, my opinion to the point of it being heretical, and I am the Holy Father, I ought to correct that publicly, right? And then never sit down with this man

Starting point is 00:30:46 again. Pope Francis has sat down with him on multiple occasions. And in this recent interview, here is what Scalfory wrote in La Repubblica. He says, incarnate God. Once incarnate, Jesus ceases to be a God and becomes a man until his death on the cross. All right. That's pretty bloody terrifying. So, Scalfory claims that when he put this idea to Francis, that Pope Francis says, Jesus of Nazareth, once he became a man, although he was a man of exceptional virtue, was not at all God. Like, am I allowed to be shocked, Catholic blogosphere? Like, am I allowed to? It was really disheartening to see on Twitter.

Starting point is 00:32:04 Now, as you all know, I have somebody who runs my social media. I didn't have the passwords, which makes things a lot safer for me. But it was really disturbing to see people, like reputable people, jump on Catholic journalists, such as Raymond Arroyo, and say that they were kind of like slandering and like causing scandal and gossiping. That was the word gossiping. But of course, if something is published throughout like, you know, these major news networks, it's not gossiping. Like comment on it. I mean, what's the alternative? We're all supposed to just shut up and pretend that this doesn't bother us? What if it seriously bothers us? What then? Is it allowed to or no?

Starting point is 00:32:49 And so the Vatican offered a response to this, as they have in the past, but what people have found so problematic is that the Vatican didn't get a direct quote from Pope Francis, nor did they necessarily strictly... Well, why don't I just read what the press office said? Here it is. As already stated on other occasions, the words of Dr. Scalfrey, attributing quotation marks to the Holy Father during talks with him, cannot be considered a faithful account of what was actually said, but represent a personal and free interpretation of what he heard, as appears completely evident from what is written today regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ. All right. That is not a flat-out denial that the Pope Francis didn't say that. All he's saying, all it's saying is this can't be thought to be accurate.

Starting point is 00:33:47 It's not a faithful account. It shouldn't be considered a faithful account. But we have not received a denunciation of these words. And to me, this is absolutely unacceptable. Like, this is absolutely unacceptable. Like, this is absolutely unacceptable. If I, Matt Fradd, were to sit down for an interview with somebody, and that somebody was to say that Matt Fradd did not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, I think I would have a moral obligation. I know I would have. I do have, I would have a moral obligation to not only denounce that, but to restate my belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ. If I'm the Holy Father,

Starting point is 00:34:34 I think I know that, I think that, how do you say this? I have an obligation to correct that and to say with no kind of uncertain terms that Jesus Christ has always been, is now, and will forever be God. Now, shortly after this came out, I just sort of put out something on Twitter. I said, Jesus Christ, I forget what I said exactly, Jesus Christ has always been, is now, and will always be God or something like that. Do you believe I had text messages from people who were telling me how inappropriate it was that I do that? This is what I'm talking about. I don't know how to live in today's day and age where you have people saying that you cannot state the truth anymore because somehow that will be seen as a correction of Pope Francis. So I don't know what to tell you, brothers and sisters. We're in turbulent times and Pope Francis, he said he wants to create a

Starting point is 00:35:32 mess. He's created a mess. And it seems to me, here's a good analogy, I think. Suppose you are having a birthday party. Maybe you are turning 18, and so it's a bit of a shindig, as we say. Do you're devoted to him and you don't want to be disrespectful to him, right? But suppose your dad starts saying things or is reported to have said things that are completely untrue and harmful and scandalous. I think at that point, you do what you can do, right? Like you say what you know is true. You say, I don't know exactly what he meant, but then you say like he needs, he should, like he should at least, he should at least, you know, say what he knows to be true. He should correct this misunderstanding that he's given you. So brothers and sisters, I, like you, don't have any hard and fast sort of, I, like you, don't have any hard and fast sort of, yeah, I don't know what to do. I just don't know what to do. It's like we have a Pope causing tremendous amount of confusion. If you say he's

Starting point is 00:36:53 causing a tremendous amount of confusion, you're told that you hate Pope Francis. But then on the other hand, if you don't kind of devote all your time to talking about, you know, the confusion that Pope Francis is bringing about. People call you soft. And you just think like, I just, I can't gel with either side. I'm kind of in the middle in no man's land. But surely it's not the case that every one of us needs to be devoted to talking about the latest crazy thing, or let's not be pejorative, the latest confusing thing that Pope Francis has said on an airplane. Like, sure, is that, can we just agree on that? Like, is every Catholic and every apostolate meant to be devoting all of their efforts to kind of talking about that? No, no. I think that's safe to say. All right.

Starting point is 00:37:53 But at the same time, am I really supposed to just not say anything when I find myself legitimately confused? I think the thing that I found so confusing about this Scalfery quote, this idea that Christ was divine and then he became human and he was no longer divine and then he was divine after that. What's scary about that is how nuanced that is. And this seems to be a heresy that we hear floating around today. I remember when I was in Ireland, I went to this retreat center. This is so disturbing. I said, I'd love to go pray before the Blessed Sacrament. And the priest, you know, called me Bob.

Starting point is 00:38:33 I'm like, okay, Father Bob. And couldn't tell he was a priest. And he took me in. I said, well, where's the Blessed Sacrament? He said, we've moved it to the other room because we were doing yoga in here. It was a small chapel. moved it to the other room because we were doing yoga in here. It was a small chapel. They had taken our blessed Lord in the tabernacle out and had done a bunch of yoga in this room. I said, where's the sacrament? I couldn't find it. So I walked around to the next room and it was a library

Starting point is 00:38:58 and I saw stuffed in the corner what looked like a tabernacle. There was a key in the hole and I turned it because I really didn't think that the blessed sacrament would be present in there. I just thought, what is this? And of course, the blessed sacrament was there. And I just, like you would have, got on my knees and worshipped our Lord and the Holy Eucharist. But this idea that Christ wasn't divine, and then he was divine, that he's not, and this kind of bull crap was floating around in those circles, in those people. It was Jesuits, of course. I'm sorry to say. I mean, I know there's some good Jesuits, but that stuff was floating around. And so it bothers me that Scalfory would say something so nuanced. He's not just saying, yeah, Pope Francis denies divinity of Christ. He's saying something that

Starting point is 00:39:51 I've heard a lot, and that's what bothers me. And that's why I want our Holy Father. I hope and I believe that he believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, past, present, and future. Like, I believe Scalfory was wrong. I would just like Pope Francis to set the record straight. Taylor Marshall made a good analogy. I don't, I hardly ever watch his things, but someone sent me something and I listened to it. He said, here's kind of what we're dealing with. It's almost like if Apple, if the CEO of Apple said, we have no money left in the bank, and everyone was like, um, what? Especially those who are investing and those who have stocks, you know, you would want, you know, like, okay, I need you not just someone to say, well, I mean, it shouldn't be considered a faithful, you know, translation. translation, you would be like, no, I demand that you, you know, maybe you didn't say that.

Starting point is 00:40:53 Maybe that was kind of got garbled in translation, but I now need you to affirm it. And I think if you can understand that analogy, you can understand why I think Catholics legitimately want Pope Francis to be very clear, you know, and just to very affirmatively say, no, of course, I believe in Jesus Christ, past, present, and future, in his divinity, you know, and I will never sit down for this, with this scalfery character again. But I don't know, man, I don't think that's going to happen. So what do we do in the meantime? Here's what I think we do. I tweeted this out recently. Again, you cannot tweet about Pope Francis or the church today without a million people just crapping all over you. But here's what I think. You and I live in confusing times, and we have a very confusing Pope.

Starting point is 00:41:37 I mean, isn't that true? Like confusing times. Like what is a man? What is a woman? What is marriage? Should we be able to kill people, like innocent people? It's crazy. It's just nuts.

Starting point is 00:41:46 And we look to clarity. We look for clarity from our church and we're not getting it from the Holy Father. I'm not. What do we do? Well, here's what I think. You and I have the tradition of the church. We have the writings and the example of the saints, right? We have books at our disposal to read on the lives of the saints. Of course, more than that, much more important than writings

Starting point is 00:42:13 of the saints, we have the holy scriptures. So therefore, we have no excuse. So I don't want to waste my days refreshing my social media feeds as to what someone said coming out of Rome or wherever, some bishop in the United States. I want to love Jesus Christ and I want to be faithful to my prayer time in the morning and night. I want to love my bride well, really well. I want to ask her forgiveness when I've messed up. I don't want to become arrogant. I don't want to become embittered. I want to love my kids. I don't want my kids to think that my phone is more important than them. Yeah. I want to evangelize my neighbors. I want to forgive my enemies. I don't want to start ignoring the homeless on the street who ask me for a handout. I want to love them. I want to encounter them. You know, I want to love the needy. I don't want to shut myself off to the cry of the oppressed,

Starting point is 00:43:21 you know, and nor should you. We have no excuse. Like, if you and I, like, do not clothe the naked, feed the sick, you know, if we do not correct fraternally our prelates when we ought to, or our friends, if we don't pray, if we don't love our wife and our children, if we get to heaven and say, well, sorry, I was too busy like wondering what was happening with Pope Francis to do any of the stuff that you called me to, we will go to hell. If we are not faithful to what Christ is calling us to do, if we willingly reject it and think because we get a dopamine hit from watching a ton of videos on what's coming out of Rome, that that somehow suffices. Like, we will go to hell. This is that serious. I am convinced, at least in part, I don't know much, and I've already told you I don't know what to do with

Starting point is 00:44:19 the chaos around us, but I'm at least convinced of this. We are called to be holy. And I'm saying this, look, this is coming from a man who is beset with weaknesses, right? Falls back into patterns and behaviors and habits that I'm ashamed of, right? This is someone who says, I want to be faithful to my morning prayer and then like, doesn't really do it because like, I want to be faithful to my morning prayer and then doesn't really do it because I got to do something else or I want a coffee. I am weak, but I know that God's grace is stronger. And so I trust in him. I trust you, Father. You are good. And you who have begun a good work in me will bring it to completion. I think sometimes we can fall into the trap of saying what the enemy would like us to say or believing what the enemy would have us believe.

Starting point is 00:45:13 I found myself lately, this temptation rising up within me that goes something like this. I wish you father would work harder for me than you are. It sometimes seems like Satan is working for me harder than you are, like that he's more interested in me. And maybe you haven't articulated it like that, but maybe you've had that kind of thought. It's so important that we fill our minds with sacred scripture so that no matter how you're feeling right now,

Starting point is 00:45:47 you can say and know that he who begun a good work in me will bring it to completion. And to say that, to state it, and to claim your sonship, your daughtership, your childhood as a beloved daughter and son of God, regardless of how you feel, that you are loved by the Father, liked by the Father. I love 1 Peter 5, 7,

Starting point is 00:46:08 Notice he didn't say, cast your super important anxieties upon him. Notice he didn't say, if you're a cardinal, then God is listening. And so in that case, you should cast your anxieties upon your super important ones. He's talking to all of us. And he's saying, cast all your anxieties upon him. Like your anxiety with the kid, that kid of yours that you don't like, you love, but you don't like. The anxiety of your child who is living in a, you know, I don't know, like a fornicating relationship, you know, living, cohabitating, the anxiety, what have I done wrong? Is it a mother or father? Is it my fault? The anxiety of, I'm not good enough. I'm not holy enough. Whatever your anxieties are,

Starting point is 00:46:57 cast them on him because he cares for you. He cares for you. All right, here's what I want to do. I'm going to throw these show notes up. Sorry, I'm going to show... Let me say that again. I'm going to throw up in the show notes, those two sections I read from the Summa Theologiae about fraternal correction and correcting prelates. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy Pints with Aquinas, I'd like to invite you to support me on Patreon. You can do it for a dollar a month if you enjoy Pints with Aquinas, I'd like to invite you to support me on Patreon. You can do it for a dollar a month if you want. We're doing a lot of cool work. Next year, I'm hoping to go to these four countries, at least four, Mexico, Cuba, Kenya, Uganda, and somewhere else in Africa. And I'm doing all of this for free. They're not paying my flight.

Starting point is 00:47:45 They're not paying for my accommodation. They're not paying for me to come and speak. They're paying me zero dollars. I want to do all of this. And I want to bring suitcases full of catechisms and rosaries and spiritual books to these people who just don't have these resources. It's been so cool to have so many of you reach out and say hey they just sent me a bunch of rosaries i had a guy the other day he gave me like 200 beautiful crucifixes like so i'm collecting i'm stockpiling but what this has meant right for me is that i've cut my speaking engagements in half i'm still taking speaking engagements so if you want to book me for your next event go to mattfrad.com but i've like i used to speak at student conferences. Like I quit, I quit those, you know, I prayed about that. I quit those. And the reason I'm kind of cutting

Starting point is 00:48:29 back on these is so I can go to these developing countries to proclaim the gospel. But that means your support is super appreciated, even if it's just a dollar a month. So if you go to patreon.com slash mattfradd, you can see all the bunch of free things you get in return. patreon.com slash mattfrad. You can see all the bunch of free things you get in return. You get like signed books, beer steins, really like handmade in America, one at a time beer steins that are like amazing. It was like 45 bucks or 40 bucks, I think, if you were to buy them individually. You get access to the Flannery O'Connor book study we just did. We did a whole book study on Dante. We're going to do some upcoming studies with different experts on Augustine's Confessions and things. You only get access to these things if you're a patron.

Starting point is 00:49:10 It's my way of just saying thank you to you for supporting the work. So if you want to do that, you know, that's an option for you. Patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. I don't interact with people on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Sorry, I just don't have the time. But I do interact with folks on Patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. So if you want to do that, that would be a huge help. God bless you. And as we wrap up today, I want to offer an Our Father, a Hail Mary and a Glory Be for Pope Francis. In the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, I'm in our Father who art in heaven. Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread

Starting point is 00:49:43 and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into Amen. And then, Blessed Mother, you who love our Holy Father Francis, protect him, strengthen him, guide him, increase his love, hope, charity, joy, faith. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. And may all glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. To carry you To carry you To carry you

Starting point is 00:51:02 To carry you To carry you Too many grains of salt and juice Thank you. Whose wolves am I feeding myself to? Who's gonna survive?

Pints With Aquinas - BONUS: Are we bound to correct Pope Francis?

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