Pints With Aquinas - BONUS | Catholic and LGBT? | Matt Fradd Show Ep. 1

Episode Date: October 16, 2018

Here is the very first episode of The Matt Fradd Show (you should watch it here) in which I interview (for nearly 3 hours!) Dan Mattson, author of the book, Why I Don't Call Myself Gay. In it we discuss The Catholic Church's teachings on homosexuality, why "gay" is an unhelpful thing to call people and how to respond to transgenderism. ... oh, and we also discuss Fr. James Martin and his approach to this whole issue. A BIG thanks to our two sponsors: Exodus 90. Check them out and use the promo code "matt" at checkout which will give you 10% off and let them know that I sent you. Covenant Eyes. The BEST accountability and filtering on the web. Seriously, if porn is an issue for you or if you have kids and don't want it to be a issue for them, you NEED Covenant Eyes. Use the promo code "mattfradd" to get a month free and so they know I sent you. PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANEL HERE. SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/mattfradd/  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/  GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show. LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd MY BOOKS  Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

G'day, g'day, g'day! Welcome to this bonus episode of Pints with Aquinas, which we really should call the very first episode of the Matt Fradd Show. By the way, I'm sorry that my audio isn't the best. I'm recording this from a hotel room in Lafayette, Louisiana. A few weeks ago, I told you that I was going to record my very first long-form sit-down video chat. And I conducted that interview. It was amazing. It was really fun. We set up a studio. We paid quite a lot of money, which is in big part thanks to you patrons. And I sat down with Dan Mattson, author of the book Why I Don't Call Myself Gay. And we chatted for around three hours. Go watch it on YouTube if you haven't watched it. I know there are a few audio issues and things

that we had to deal with, but it was the very first episode and we did the best we could. But overall, I think it was a real great episode. Now, you might not have three hours to sit down and watch a video. So I thought, well, let's throw it up here so people can listen to it. All right. So this was a really good discussion. I'm going to play it for you here. But before I get into today's episode, I want to say thanks to two sponsors. We've never had sponsors really for Pints with Aquinas before.

But this new thing, which we're calling the Matt Fradd Show, which will be a once a month video, thanks to two sponsors. We've never had sponsors really for Pints with Aquinas before, but this new thing, which we're calling the Matt Fradd Show, which will be a once a month video, is very expensive. And so I didn't turn down a couple of sponsors. So I want to mention them to you now. You'll also hear me talk about it in the show, but I'm very thankful to them. And here's why you should listen to me. One, because the sponsors are great. And two, because if you go and get their product and use my promo code, they'll think to themselves, wow, advertising with Matt really helped. And they'll want to support another video. So, you know, obviously don't get it just for that reason. But that's why it helps me.

So the first is Exodus 90, which is a program, modern day asceticism sort of program of 90 days for men who get together in small groups and commit to fasting from various comforts so that they can be free from those things in order to love. So if you go to Exodus 90, I want to make sure I get that right. Exodus90.com. When you sign up, use the promo code Matt, M-A-T-T. You'll get 10% off and they'll know that we sent you. It really is an amazing thing. They actually wrote an article back in the day called Why Matt Fratt is Wrong. Interesting, huh? Ooh, you should go look that up. Now, the day called Why Matt Fratt is Wrong. Interesting, huh? Ooh, you should go look that up. Now, the reason they thought I was wrong is I said, yeah, this is a great program,

but if you're addicted to porn, giving up legitimate pleasures like tobacco and a warm bed and a warm shower isn't going to cure you of porn addiction. I still think that. They evidently think I'm wrong, and that's fine. you have porn addiction. I still think that. They evidently think I'm wrong, and that's fine. But just because I disagree with them, perhaps on that aspect, doesn't mean this isn't an absolutely incredible program. And I am really close to doing it with a few friends of mine. So please check it out, exodus90.com. Just go to their website. It's amazing. And as I say, punch in the promo code, Matt, and yeah, that'll be good.

The next sponsor was Covenant Eyes. If you want to try Covenant Eyes for free, which is the best accountability and filtering software on the web, honestly, look, listen to me now. I'm going to offend you. Are you ready? If you're a parent who doesn't have Covenant Eyes, you're doing something massively wrong.

Why wouldn't you have Covenant Eyes? Like, seriously, you need to have Covenant Eyes, you're doing something massively wrong. Why wouldn't you have, like seriously, you need to have Covenant Eyes. If there were a better software thing out there, I wouldn't have agreed to advertise them. They are the best. If you want to try it out, go to covenanteyes.com, type in Matt Fradd as the promo code, you'll get a month free and you can try it out for yourself. If you don't like it, don't do it and you won't have to spend a dime. So go check those out. So those are the two sponsors I want to thank. If you haven't yet, please subscribe to my YouTube channel. I'll put a link into the show notes so you can watch this video for yourself. Please subscribe. We're

obviously trying to build up our audience on YouTube so that when we do sit down chats like this, which we have many planned for in the future, we're going to reach a wider audience. So I just want to say a huge thanks to all of you who made this possible. You know, a lot of you have been supporting me financially over Patreon, but even those of you who haven't have been really encouraging me. And I just want to let you know that it means a lot. So thanks. And here's my interview with Dan Mattson. that it means a lot. So thanks. And here's my interview with Dan Mattson. Hello and welcome to the very first episode of the Matt Fradd Show. I am Jason Everett.

No, I am Matt Fradd and I'm here today with my good mate Dan Mattson. Dan, I'm pretty sure they can see you. Howdy. What do you think of that? It's fantastic. It's amazing. Do you see the resemblance? We're going'll be talking with Dan about a lot of different stuff today Why he's written a book or why I didn't call himself gay. It's great to have you. It's great being here with you Thanks for having me on the inaugural show. Yeah, so this is sort of like our Seinfeld

Pilot episode did you ever see the very first episode of Seinfeld? I did it was a little bit awkward They were testing things out, but you could see the very first episode of Seinfeld? I did. It was a little bit awkward. They were testing things out. But you could see the seeds of brilliance. Yes. And I, the seeds are being sown of brilliance right here. Yeah, yeah. I can hear them growing. And so, you know, we're really pumped to be doing this.

The whole idea was that we were going to maybe start doing them once a month. We're going to have my sister on next month. We've got Christopher West on in December. Just to have long discussions with people about stuff. Yeah, It's great being here with you. It looks great, man. It looks great. And you said to me, what do you think on a scale of one to 10? How much do you hate it? How much do you hate it? Yeah. And I knew that there was no answer I could give you that you weren't going to accept that it's good. Like you're the most critical of it. I mean, it looks great. Yeah, it's fun. We need you're the most critical of it. I mean, it looks great.

Yeah, it's fun. We need to ask the patrons what they think of this. Right. And give some feedback and, you know. Yeah. Well, so I run the podcast, obviously, Pints with Aquinas. Yeah. But I didn't want to be totally restricted for this video discussion forum.

Yeah. Or else we'd have to base everything around Aquinas. Right, right. I take that seriously. Like, on the podcast, we always read from Aquinas. We're not necessarily doing that, hence the new name. It's great. The Mad Fred show, I think it's fantastic.

Pretty clear. Clear over clever is what they say. Well, who is that show? Who's the host? Who's the host of the Mad Fred show anyway? Not Jason Everett. Not Jason Everett. So it just turned out that you were here in Atlanta?

Yeah, I was here to do some talks. I got a call from the chaplain at the Newman Center, Georgia Tech. You heard I was coming, and you were ready to get this fired up, and so here we are. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, give people a brief introduction to who you are. We will get into the book later on. Well, who I am is, you know, I am here and speaking around the world because I wrote this book about homosexuality, but that's not who I am. I mean, that's one of the core messages of my book. I am, I think it's far more interesting that I'm a professional orchestra trombone player. I make my living playing the trombone in an orchestra,

I make my living playing the trombone in an orchestra, and I've toured the world doing that, played in Carnegie Hall many times. And, you know, who I am, I'm the youngest of four boys that grew up in the Midwest, and I have a passion for the church. I was the prodigal son, and we'll get into that story, But I love Pints with Aquinas because I really love beer. Where's the camera? I don't know. We might have a beer later on. I think they're looking at you through that one. And this is the perfect glass for both coffee.

We're drinking coffee now. But I love a good pint. And I love the social aspect of Catholicism. It embraces our in... What's that line from, what's his name, about wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there's always... The red wine and laughter and sun and, you know, people. At least I've always found it so. I was Protestant for a long time, and there was sort of a suspicion of alcohol and all these... The good of the incarnational life we live and and i have

come to embrace you know probably too much yeah the pints maybe i should do exodus 90 yeah exactly i could be a poster child for exodus 90 where where is it i could benefit from exodus 90 there we go yeah how do you like that placement? But anyway, I love sharing the good news I found in the Catholic Church. I love going around. 1 Peter 3.15 says, Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that lies within you. And I really have embraced that calling by God to talk about how I was a prodigal son and came back to the church.

And it was scary, but it brings me a lot of joy. Yeah. Okay, so we're going to get to this, but when did you first, quote, unquote, come out as gay? Yeah. Identifying as gay. What age were you? Well, I was in my 30s,

and really I came out to just a small group of people. So what I want to know is... I was probably 30. 30. I'm 35. You're 35. I know I look not a day over. 36, but...

Yeah. So if someone could tell you, like, come back from the future, like, hey, you wrote a book about why you don't call yourself gay. Like, what would have you thought? Well, I would have, I would have thrown it against the wall and said, that's a lie. You're, somebody's trying to convince me that what I just accepted about the truth, you know, because it's the big, the great question we always ask, who am I? Where, why am I here? And our human sexuality is a big part of that question. Yeah. And now I grew

up in an age where I wasn't inundated with the division of gay and straight. So when I first had these sexual attractions as an adolescent, I didn't automatically say I was gay. But then as I entered my late 20s and said, you know, I just have no attraction to women at all. I guess I am gay. This is who I am. And I didn't come out to my family or even at work or anything, but I reached out to people online, and then I found out some people who had come out, and I confided with them and felt this liberty, actually.

It did feel like some freedom to say, well, I guess this is who I am. And then I found a boyfriend, and it was then when I was going to come out to everybody. But there was a small circle of people that I had come out with and come out to, and it did feel like a liberty. Finally, I figured out who I was. But as we'll get into, I found that that was actually an empty vision of freedom and happiness.

And you're giving a talk tonight. Where? At Georgia Tech. There's some rumors of some protests. Protests? Yes, some protests. It could be exciting. What do you think that they think that you're going to say?

What are they protesting? Well, I think that I don't fit the narrative, Matt. What's the narrative? The narrative is that the narrative is what I believed when I was 30. Who you feel yourself to be is who you are. And the way you're going to be happy if you're attracted to the same sex, you've got to embrace your identity as gay.

This is who I am. I was created this way. And I'll only have happiness if I live this out. If your only options are that or being trapped in a closet. Right. Because who wants to live in a closet? And the idea is,

this closet, oh, you've got to bust free. Well, I have discovered the closet is manufactured. It's made of paper mache. And the door of the closet actually goes, in my mind, it's not coming out of anything. It's going into this diminished view of the human person. It's going into a pigeonhole. It's going into a prison of a confined sexual identity. I see now the brilliance of the Catholic Church's teaching on human sexuality. It says we are created a certain way by God as male and female,

and mankind has a whole myriad range of sexual attractions and inclinations. Why in God's green earth would you put yourself in a pigeonhole based on those feelings and attractions? This is secular heresy. Well, it is. That's not the narrative. The narrative doesn't fit that. It's like, yeah. What's the response?

Are you going to maybe have some protests tonight? Yeah, well, apparently they've been. Why can't they just be like, let's be open-minded. Like, you have a different take on this, and maybe that's okay. Because you're not telling anyone how to live their life. All I'm going to do is tell my story. Apparently, people have been tearing down the flyers on campus. Nice.

It's always a good sign. Yeah. So the police are going to be there in case some people. So I'm excited. That's great. Like, see what happens. Because usually I talk to very friendly crowds, and I like a little bit of a challenge. But I do hope that if

people are there we can actually have a conversation did i tell you that a um prostitute stripper got up at my talk the other day no did you not know this i did not yet let's hear about the prostitute stripper yeah at your talk yeah i was giving a talk in baltimore in the basilica and um it's a beautiful place and i was gave my basic talk, just like you were saying. I didn't expect anyone to be there who disagreed with me. I usually give talks to very friendly audiences. Not always, because I speak on university campuses as well. At the end of the talk, Q&A,

and I was going around answering people's questions. There was one lady in the back who had her hand up, and she was pretty eager to have her question answered. So I said, well, can we just do one more? And we got around to her. And she stood up, and she was actually quite polite. Like, great. I thought she was pretty eager to have her question answered. So I said, well, can we just do one more? And we got around to her. And she stood up and she was actually quite polite. Like, great. I thought she was wonderful.

And she very calmly said, I'm a sex worker, stripper, prostitute. And I think you should rethink some things. And then she sort of made her argument. Now, what made things really awkward was just as she was launching into her argument, argument. Now, what made things really awkward was just as she was launching into her argument, this man behind her, my age, stood up, pointed

at her, and shouted at her. He said, how dare you? It was so awkward. Well, and you know, how sad that happened in a basilica where there is Jesus present because Jesus himself would have never done that. No. He would have sat down and eaten with prostitutes. Tell me your story. So I said, you present, because Jesus himself would have never done that. He would have sat down and said, tell me your story.

So I said, you know, because you're on the spot. I mean, so now it's like, okay, don't have someone, not only is there someone challenging me in public, and I've got to come up with an answer to this, there's someone else shouting at this woman. So I got the phone and I said, hey, cut that out. Let her speak. Go for a walk.

Good for you. Yeah, the wife took him out and she, and I said, I'm so sorry. Thank you for being here. I'm sorry someone shouted at you. It's probably not what you were hoping for. And she kind of laid out her case. And one of the things she kept saying was, like, I'm happy, you know, and you have to understand that people in the sex industry,

we're not like these kind of demonic people who want children to see porn and things like that. And so my basic answer was like, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having the courage to be here because it mustn't be that comfortable sitting with a bunch of people who probably disagree with your life choices. And, you know, one of the things I said, though, is I said, I think you're wrong to be happy. Right?

Like we can make decisions and feel empowered by those decisions and be wrong, too. Yeah. Like, people who are self-declared racists or part of different groups that associate themselves with racism, I imagine, find their work empowering. And you'd be like, you're an idiot. I'm not saying she's an idiot. Right, right. Or let's say you've got a friend who's a female maybe and she's dating this dude. And all of her friends realize that he's not good for her.

Like you just less yourself when you're around him, you know. And she says, but I'm happy. I'm in love. And you could see being like, well, then you're wrong to be happy. So I said that, which is, of course, and she goes interrupting. And I said, well, look, I'll let you have the last say. So I said that, which is, of course, and she goes interrupting. And I said, well, look, I'll let you have the last say.

Now, when someone says that and they don't let you have the last say, that really pisses me off. Yeah. So like on Catholic radio, someone will be like, and I'll let you have the, they don't do this, I guess, but I'll let you have the last say, right? And then they say, okay, well, thank you. And here's why you're wrong. And then they go to an ex-caller. I was like, no, no, I'm not going to do that. So I'll let you have the last say.

And so she said her piece. None of it was kind of new. I didn't feel like it challenged anyone or led anyone into error. So I just went, okay, well, thank you for being here. And that was it. So that's the story of how I was challenged by a stripper. But the point was, I just like, why can't we just be accepting of other viewpoints even when we disagree with them? Well, you know, I had this great experience at Ball State University where I- That's a great name, by the way. It is a great experience at Ball State University. That's a great name, by the way. It is a great name. Ball State.

Ball State University in Indiana is a great name. And I was invited there to do a dialogue with somebody who identified as gay. And it was a collaborative talk with the Catholic Newman Center and the local LGBT group and the feminist groups. And it was very civil. And we had a moderator from the religious department, and it was a very civil, respectful conversation. And I think, I don't know if we can do that anymore. The culture, as we know, has just shifted so much where people shout each other down. And what I'm hoping will happen, if there are people who want to protest, I think they're protesting their idea of what I'm going to say. And the idea of what they think I represent.

And all I want to do is tell my story. And how can you disparage someone's story? You might say they're a fool. Or that they've interpreted. They're wrong to impress that on other people. They might say that. And I think the great invitation of the church, St. John Paul II, he always said the church proposes, never imposes.

So true. And it's beautiful. And that's what Christ did himself. Yeah. I say that at the start of my college talks when I speak at universities. I'll say, and this sounds relativistic, but it isn't. I say, I'm not here to tell you what to do. Like, do whatever you want. You're old enough and ugly enough to make decisions. That's what we say in Australia. That's why I have a therapist.

But, yeah, it's like, you know, just make your, but I think that it's prudent that you have all the information at your disposal before engaging in a behavior that might have deleterious effects. Well, and, you know, to the point, to the stripper, that she says she's happy. Well, I was happy in my relationship. I had a boyfriend. I thought I was going to share my life with him. But I often think of this great line of C.S. Lewis in The Weight of Glory.

And he says, you know, people think that God views our desires as too strong. And he says, no, God sees our desires as too strong. And he says, no, God sees our desires as too weak. And he says, we settle for playing with mud pies like a child who doesn't know what is meant by the invitation to a vacation at the sea. We're far too easily pleased. Far too easily pleased. Exactly. You're familiar with that line, you know.

And that's my whole life has been motivated by the search for happiness. Yeah. Yours too. All of us. Everyone. We can't not want it. That's what we're made for. We can't not want it. Everything we do is in order to be happy.

Is chosen in order to make happy. Be happy. Drugs. I mean, Aquinas says even the suicide. Right. Because sometimes we think, well, if there's any example that contradicts that, it's the suicide. Right? Because some of them would think, well, if there's any example that contradicts that, it's the suicide. He says, no, even the suicide

does so because he wants to end suffering. That's exactly right. And that's why the church has so much mercy on people who commit suicide. Because they're not

seen clearly. Right. They're not totally free. The psychological state that they're in. You know, mortal sin, you have to be free in that choice.

And if you're in this state of horrible depression, you're not completely free. So there's a lot of mercy there. But I was happy, but I look back on my time with this boyfriend. And a friend of mine who also came back to the church after living in the gay life, he said, yeah yeah i was happy but only as happy as i knew how to be yeah that's a good way to put it um tell us about your childhood like did you know people argue a lot about nature and nurture i don't i'd love to get your thoughts on that and i'd also want to know about your personal experience did you always

let's just use the word what do you want to use the words? Gay? Same-sex attracted? We can clarify. So let's talk about that just out of the gate. Why don't you call yourself gay? Yeah. So that's the title of my book. Because you're attracted to men, right? Yeah.

And sexually attracted to men. So why not call yourself gay? You know, we alluded to it a little bit in the beginning that these labels that are new modern inventions, the heterosexual person, the homosexual person, those were invented in the tail end of the 19th century. And all this litany of growing sexual identities have stemmed from that, LGBTQ, et cetera. There's so many now. that. LGBTQ, etc. There's so many now. And so what I have found freedom in is realizing that there's a truth that is revealed to me by my body. You know, just like, so I wear glasses. Why do I wear glasses? How did I know I couldn't read the Matt Fradd show? How did I know this? Yeah. Right. How did somebody say, maybe you need glasses? Why isn't this the way I see just a form of human eyesight?

It's your orientation. Right. Yeah. Essentially. You know, my dad is colorblind. Well, is that a beautiful expression of human vision or not? No. We know by the design of the body that one should be able to see well. We have eyes. We should be able to see well. And we have been able to determine through reason and our intellect. And we've deciphered ways to measure 20-20 vision. If you don't have 20-20 vision, you're not seen clearly. But when it comes to the sexual realm, we do the same thing with our ears, with our whole body, everything with health, you know, we've got some bottles of water offset here.

We need to stay hydrated. The body reveals that to us. And so, but in the realm of human sexuality, nope, the body doesn't reveal a thing to you. Interesting. Do you know what is fascinating? That's really interesting. Like somehow this is,

I guide my health. We're in this cult of vitality, right? People running, staying in shape, and they know what to do with their muscles, the nutrients, everything. It's all guided by the body.

But human sexuality, we say, no, the stuff you have down there doesn't mean anything. And you can do with that whatever you want. The eyes are for seeing, not hearing.

The ears are for hearing, not walking on. Yeah, exactly. With every other part of the body, we say there's a natural sort of teleology. Teleology, to use a philosophical term. And a natural end. You're just biologically speaking. Like, forget theology. Right.

So I can be sexually aroused by a man but you know what my body is trying to do trying to reproduce the species right you know this is exactly a real biological it's a biological fact and what I might have it's the same thing if like I look at porn exactly my body's trying to reproduce the species and and it's probably not going to happen like that. It's not going to happen. And why do we not look at that reality and help us to guide our behaviors? Now, you know, I'm not going to pour coffee in my eye, you know?

I mean, why would you do that? There's an interesting story that, speaking of the eye, in Japan, there was a rash of pink eye. There was a horrible outbreak of pink eye. And they didn't know what was going on. Well, it turns out in Japan, it became a thing when you were making out with your boyfriend or girlfriend

that you would lick the eyeball. How strange is that? I'm super into it myself. But it was this... That is weird. It is weird. And they had to have a public service announcement to stop doing that. It's insane.

How did that look? Well, I don't even know. How do you jazz that up? I don't know. So do what you want. But if... Just a suggestion. Stop licking each other's eyeballs.

Eyeballs. You know, but somehow. That is hilarious. It is hilarious, but it became something that the eye is very sensitive, and during sexual arousal, it became exciting to them, but it was a misuse of the eye, and it did damage to them. Wow. Everybody's watering.

Right. Their eyes are watering now. Yeah, totally. And so this is a misuse of the eye to bring about some sort of sexual pleasure and it's very strange to us to think about but it was a big deal in japan yeah it's nuts so so when i look at uh my body and what happens and what is it designed for, that, in my mind, a logical, rational person would be guided in his moral behavior and his sexual identity based on the truth of his body.

So why do I say I'm not gay? I don't believe that the gay person as a category is objectively true. It's a social construct really pushed by an ideological move. And I am a man, and I am made for women. And my body reveals that truth to me. The label gay is a social construct. Absolutely. What's funny is that we live in this day and age where everything else is a social construct.

Your maleness, your femaleness. Well, that's what they want to say. Your species. Who knows? That'll be the next thing. Well, that's what they want to say. They want to say that mal? That'll be the next thing. Well, that's what they want to say. They want to say that maleness is a social construct. No, maleness is objective reality.

Right. I am drinking this coffee in the way that a man drinks a coffee because I'm a man drinking a coffee. Right. This is a male way of drinking a coffee. Yeah, yeah. I feel very oppressed by it, actually. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. But there's this absurdity that says that all masculine... Now, there's some essence where masculinity and femininity, we can have these certain culturally conditioned definitions. Yeah, stereotypes. Yeah, you know. In Scotland, wearing a kilt is very masculine. Yeah.

Right? Not so much. Not so much, unless you're Scottish. Right. At a wedding. At a wedding. That's the only time it's acceptable. That's the so much. Unless you're Scottish. At a wedding. At a wedding. That's the only time it's acceptable. That's the only time.

Just to be clear. Just everyone out there. Taking notes. No, it's true. I mean, I'm not into sport, but I am super into poetry. You know what I mean? There's things that my wife is the one who fixes stuff around our house when it's broken. Because I don't know how to do it.

But why can't that be okay? Well, and it is okay. Yeah. It is. And so this is where I think we always have to distinguish and make distinctions. You know, the people who criticize these really kind of, I would say, caricatures of masculinity. They are right to do so. I'm a professional musician, and I always felt somehow less manly

because I was so interested in music. Well, no, it's a very manly thing to take something that you're interested in and work on it and perfect it and persevere. That is the virtue of fortitude. Especially when people aren't necessarily praising you for it. Like if you were the captain of the football team, you probably would have gotten the praise and the attention

from the people that you wanted to get it from. The fact that you could be so invested and persevere in an activity that you may not have received that sort of praise. It's a very manly thing. And, of course, women do the same thing. They have the virtue of fortitude as well, the same sort of thing. So all that to say that the idea that my sexual attractions define me more than my masculinity and the body that I have. Yeah. Makes no sense to me.

And it is sort of, if we're going to use a little philosophy and theology, it's a modern form of Gnosticism. Yeah. And the Gnostics really kind of denigrated the body, denigrated the flesh, and said that the mind is the most important thing. And we can say Descartes, when he said, I think, therefore I am. You know, this idea that how we think and how we feel is the most important aspect of our sexual identity. Simply not true.

I love what you said last night from Budziszewski's book, The Meaning of Sex. Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah, so I always, when I give talks, I like to, people say, well, how can I demonstrate to people the truth of the church's teaching that we're male and female?

And I always ask people to raise their hands. How many of you here have a reproductive system? Do you have a reproductive system? I put my hand up. You put your hand up. Yeah, reproductive. Because you have fathered children. I have, yeah.

And I say, Ron, you do not have a reproductive system, my friend. What? There's a reproductive system when a man and a woman come together. Right. I mean, we don't think about that. It's radically incomplete. It is. Yes, it's radically incomplete.

And Jay Budachewski, his book on the meaning of sex, he talks about this brilliantly. It's a jaw-dropping moment. And he says, we are created blessed brilliantly. It's a jaw-dropping moment. And he says, we are created blessedly incomplete. We have a respiratory system. We have a respiratory system. Our other systems are complete.

I don't have to run up to you and take a inhale and then walk around and find someone else to inhale with. It's like, I can do that just fine. Yeah.

But when it comes to sexuality, I'm radically incomplete. You are radically incomplete. In fact, your half of the reproductive system makes no sense whatsoever without reference to a woman. Yeah. And vice versa. Yeah. You know, so when you look at the passage in Genesis where, all right, it is not good for man to live alone,

so let's find a suitable companion for him. So he makes the animals. Yeah. None of them were found. Of course, the animals were male and female. And so Adam sees, well, each of these male animals has their suitable companion, but none of them are suitable for me. So God puts him to sleep and he splits him in two. And where is the remnant that we see that split? In human sexuality.

And we're made for union with each other. And just as we're guided with our eyesight and everything else, the wise and prudent man or woman will look at his own design and say, ah, there is a reason and purpose behind this, and I will use it in accordance with this design in the same way that I use this for holding a liquid. So when people ask you, well, then what do you think of gay people using that terminology? And they might say, well, if the wise and prudent will be guided by their body, are you saying they're like idiots? And maybe if they just

kind of would follow basic biology, they wouldn't, you know, people come back at you with that sort of. Well, it's, it's, it's a lot of people will say, well, that's a, that's a, the naturalistic fallacy or biological fallacy is if that it's just our body that derives these truths. Well, it's more than that as Christians. Because I'm just thinking like when I'm thirsty, my body needs to be hydrated. It doesn't mean I can't drink Coca-Cola, which isn't natural. So I'm using that kind of desire to, I suppose I'm still hydrating myself in a way,

so I'm not thwarting the function of that biological urge. But when someone says to you, what do you think of gay people, what's your answer? Well, my answer would be what St. Mother Teresa said when she was asked the question. Yeah, I love this story. She was asked that question, and she said... In an interview, right? In an interview, yes. She said, you mean beloved children of God, right?

Well, yes. So what do you think of gay people? You mean beloved children of God. You know, so, I mean, this is really, and then he had to proceed through the interview. So regarding the gay, beloved children of God. Exactly. And how can you resist Mother Teresa? You can't.

And she saw things right. So when I see, you know, the gay pride parade is going to, we're outside of Atlanta, and it's going to be in Atlanta this weekend. And the gay pride parade there, I see these people marching, and I am filled with love for them. You know, I sit there and I think, I want to invite you into the fullness of your dignity as a beloved child of God. But how can you say you love them when what they are doing, they find, actually liberates

them? Like, why can't it just be, look, you found your path to happiness. You're not going to call yourself gay. But they've found their path to happiness as well. And it's a little patronizing, someone might say, to say, look, I love you, and I just want you to be happy. And they're like, I'm happy. Like, leave me alone.

Well, and those people, I do leave them alone. Right. You know, I don't, I honor their self-determination. God did that. You know, he made us free and autonomous beings. Right. And the story of the prodigal son really brings that to home. He made us free and autonomous beings. And the story of the prodigal son really brings that to home.

So you're not going to stand out with a bullhorn shouting at people. No. No. No, if I were, anytime I meet a really, you know, especially if somebody's an activist or, I just, what's your name? I want to know your name. What's your story? It's nice to meet you. or I just, what's your name? I want to know your name.

What's your story? It's nice to meet you. I want to leave aside these issues because I know I'm just going to be a mosquito or a thorn in their side. There's no sense of me trying. It comes back to what we said before. The church always proposes, never imposes. That's a very key point.

It's an invitation. You've never had a priest knock on your door and raid the cupboards, remove all the contraception, let's say. No, no. Part of honoring our dignity is honoring our freedom to make choices. And sadly, sometimes we make choices that lead us away from God and happiness and we're blind to it. We make choices that lead us away from God and happiness, and we're blind to it. And, you know, I am convinced that everybody who identifies as LGBT will only find true happiness and freedom by embracing their created nature as male and female by God.

And then living a chaste life, if that's what that, you know, if they're not going to be able to have sexual expression, then chastity becomes a gift and that leads to freedom. What do you think about, what's it called, reorientation therapy? What's that called? Yeah, so there's reparative therapy and sexual, sometimes we'll call it sexual orientation change efforts, S-O-C-E. I reject the premise that there are discrete sexual orientE. I reject the premise. Why? That there are discrete sexual orientations. You reject the categories.

Yeah, I just, and the church does too. A lot of people don't know this, that a lot of people think, I believe, think the Catholic church says, well, our sexuality as created by God is heterosexual. You know, the church actually makes this distinction. It's not. In the 1986 letter on the pastoral care of the homosexual person, it says, today the church provides a badly needed context when she refuses to consider the person as either homosexual or heterosexual. So I'm not a heterosexual.

You're not a heterosexual. You're not a homosexual. No. We're just dudes. And then it says... Children of God. Instead you're beloved children of God. Right. I mean, it says it does injury to have a reductionist view of my identity that is rooted in my sexual attractions or orientation. I say this about my attraction to men is that it's not a sexual orientation. It's a sexual disorientation. It's not a sexual orientation. It's a sexual disorientation.

Because, you know, by the orient, the word orientation comes from orient and the east. You cannot change east from west. So just by its very nature, our orientation is set. And it's set by God, you know. And I say this is that my body is like a compass that points to the truth. That's my orientation. It's towards a woman. It's this complementarity that we talked about earlier that God, in his creative wisdom, made us as male and female. And that goes deeper than merely just our body.

The other thing that's interesting about sexual desire is we can be sexually attracted to all sorts of things. You know, if I'm sexually attracted to pornography, I don't thereby call myself a pornosexual, say. Or if I commit adultery on my wife, I'm not an adulterosexual. I'm just somebody who has, I would say, misused my sexuality. Do you find it interesting that we don't have labels for those different expressions of our sexuality that we do for this?

No, it makes sense to me actually because it's far more, when we have this conversation we have to be careful not to distill the LGBT identity or the gay identity solely to the sexual aspect of it. Okay, why? It's also that greater desire to love and be loved, to have a companion. You're not going to desire to have a companion for porn, right? It would not surprise me, though, if in the coming years we see people say, I find my fulfillment through being with my sex robot. Oh, and I think we are seeing that already happening. Precisely because I do not want

to be in this relationship with another person who can hurt me, whatever. And that's just... But even then we would say, yeah, well, that's a wound. The fact that you don't want to be with a person isn't a sign of health. Right, right. It seems to me that there's something about our sexuality that reveals wounds in our psychosis, or I don't want to say psychosis, but our psychology, that other ways don't. The catechism says that sexuality affects the person, all of the person, you know, in his relating with other people. And so if somebody's been hurt by people or rejected by women, I can see why a robot would be safer for them. But how can we, you know,

this mindset that says, you do what you do, you just do you. You know, kids say, well, you do you or whatever. Why? No, no. Let's say, where are the wounds that led to you wanting to not have intimacy with a human person? Yeah. But so anyway, coming back to the whole question of the LGBT community, it's more than just the sexual gratification. It's also about that idea of companionship and the longing to love and be loved and to be known.

We all want to be known. But isn't that like adultery? I mean, the same thing is true in adultery. I'm looking for a companion. Well, I think adultery is so often just like a convenient escape from the real relationship I have. And there's a lot of adulterous affairs where it just becomes a drug

to help them get through their bad relationship. Right, yeah. And then, you know, how many... It's more about the excitement than the companionship. So how many, and then how many stories do you hear where the adulterous person divorces their current spouse and then they decide to share life together? And when that excitement of the illicit nature of it is gone, it's like, no, I really don't like you.

So when we're ministering to people with LGBT, who identify as LGBTQ, we can't, we can't, everybody wants to have a little thumbnail of what this is. And it's not just about sex. It's about the holistic human person. And so we need to minister to people and say, yes, you may feel lonely. How can we find ways that are healthy for you to find that communion that you long for? And for me, what I see with same-sex attraction, and that's what I say that I experience same-sex attraction. It gets away from an identity, and it describes things I feel.

Okay, experience same-sex attraction is the language you prefer. That's what I use. It's clunky. It is clunky. It is clunky, admittedly so, but there is something liberating to it. I never say that I struggle with same-sex attraction. Okay, why not? Because it's not a struggle to just be, I just, it just is.

You know, I noticed in the bio that was written for me from my trip here to Atlanta, it says, Dan Madsen will talk about his struggles with same-sex attraction. No, I won't. Yeah, you're like, I'm doing fine. I'm fine. What I struggle with is the same thing everybody struggles with, is virtue. I struggle with the virtue of chastity. I struggle with the the same thing everybody struggles with is virtue. I struggle with the virtue of chastity.

I struggle with the virtue of trusting God. I struggle with the – those are the struggles. Yeah, and I do too. Right. So I love Father Mike Schmitz's line where he says, this is not about us and them. It's about us. What do you think about that?

I think that's about us. What do you think about that? I think that's exactly right. And, you know, it's, this is where I have concern and trouble for people in the church who want to start LGBTQ ministries as a way of welcoming people like me into the church. Because what you're doing is you're bringing them into a church, but you're ghettoizing them into their own little community and niche. But don't we do that with teens and mothers' groups? Well, we do, but there's a way that you say, all right, you have your particular needs as teenagers, but you're boys and girls who are growing into manhood and womanhood. And there's certain common expressions that you're going to have with that. But this idea that this sexual identity, that somehow this is a discrete sort of third type of sex

or to consider people as sexual minorities, and you are not part of, you're a different type of sexual creature than the rest of us. Even mom's groups, that recognizes God's division of male and female. I mean, men meet, say, to overcome certain problems in pornography, say, in an accountability group. But they're not. So I'm still trying to figure out, like, what's the problem with an LGBT group? Or then here's a question, because I know you're a big fan of courage.

So you're a fan of courage in which people with same-sex attraction get together, chat, support each other. What's the difference then? Because they sound, on surface level, they sound like they're the same thing. Or they could be. Well, so courage, for those listening who might not know about it, it's a ministry in the church

that, it's been approved by the Vatican. The only ministry approved by the Vatican for men and women with same-sex attractions, to help them live in accordance with the church's teaching. And part of that obviously is the question of chastity. But one of the aspects of the church's teaching is what paragraph 2333 says. It says, everyone should accept and acknowledge his sexuality. Every man and woman should accept his sexual identity. So part of courage is to help set us free from these restrictive reductionist labels.

And also, particularly if men and women have a hard time interacting with men and women in their own sense of their masculinity, it's a way that we can become comfortable with this. A father, Philip Bolchansky, who's the head of the Courage Ministry, he's a great man. He says oftentimes courage is a laboratory for friendship. It's a way that we can reorient our loves and attraction for the same sex the right way. And that's friendship. But the LGBT group... Why can't these groups be doing the same thing?

Well, see, they are embracing an identity which is not their identity. And you can tell that just by the name of the group. Yeah, yeah. And so there is no us and them, which means there is no you. You're not a separate sexual sort of identity. A fundamental to your created nature is having humility before God, recognizing that you were created and to accept that. And in order to be a part of the community of faith, you need to abide by and accept God's creative order for humanity. And we want to invite you into this community of our faith and to say, leave behind these identities of the world. Now, one other thing that this will do is it will lead confusion to young people. If parishes start having LGBT groups and a young person grows up in the church and says,

I'm attracted to the same sex, I guess this is my primary identity. Yeah. And it becomes kind of a primary identity. And I think that that's unhelpful. Yeah. Have you seen it done well? I mean, are there LGBT groups who are not? I'm sure they aren't, maybe.

There's probably groups who aren't encouraging the behavior. I don't know any of those groups. Really? What, you're saying the groups do encourage the behavior? At parishes. Oh, yeah, there's a... I can see it being an under-the-table sort of thing, like, hey, I mean, we're all struggling. No, it's a. I can see it being an under the table sort of thing. Like, hey, I mean, we're all struggling.

No, it's. But actively saying. St. Ignatius of Loyola in New York City. Yeah. Recently published something from their Catholic, I can't remember what the name of their LGBT group is. Yeah. But in the document, it was a listening session that they had. And they talked about how one mom who has a son who identifies as gay said,

my biggest dream is that my son could marry a man in St. Patrick's Cathedral. So I think that there are some LGBT groups that they'll put on the website official church teaching and say, well, we are here. We have the magisterial teaching on the website, and we talk about it, but it's kind of a wink, wink, nudge, nudge sort of thing. What do you think about those people who say, I have certain gifts and talents because I'm the way that I am? Well, I would say that's exactly right. Okay. gifts and talents and because I'm the way that I am, you know?

Well, I would say that's exactly right. Okay. I would say you have gifts and talents because of exactly how I am. And how I am is created as Dan Mattson. But you would say it's not your gayness that's making you more sensitive and more empathetic? No, not at all. People, I have had people say to me online, well, I hear you're a professional musician. That's because you're gay.

No, it's because I practice my scales. If only it was that easy. And the fact of the matter is, I worked my tail off. Don't have to practice. I'm gay. Here we come, Carnegie Hall. It's kind of this stereotype, too. Honestly, on that point, there's this stereotype that people identify as gay

are somehow more artistic than the rest of the community. They've done studies to try to find that. It's simply not the case. Is that right? It's simply not the case. Though, of course, there are a lot of artistic people who identify as gay. But studies across have tried to... I have a question for you that's going to make me seem really ignorant, but I don't care.

Why are there some people who say that they're gay who are super flamboyant, and then other people, like Dave Rubin, who I think is doing a great job, I love his show, he's a very open-minded guy, but he's not super flamboyant? Where does that come from? You know, I don't have a concrete answer to that. I think it's a lot of choices that people make. You know, for me,

I just have never really had... I think some people have... I'm probably more flamboyant than you. Yeah, I think so. I think so! But it's part of your personality. Right. So sometimes that flamboyance is not being gay.

Yeah. But you do like poetry. I love poetry, which is super gay. No, I'm just joking. No. But I have had somebody, I was talking to somebody outside of church one time, and they yelled at me and said, hey, fag. And I didn't know why. What? And I wondered if it, fag. And I didn't know why.

What? And I wondered if it was a good, I didn't know why. And maybe I do talk with my hands, but I don't think I generally have this mannerism. No, you definitely don't. Yeah. So maybe it's because my shoes match my shirt. I don't know. I don't know.

But it was very confusing to me. It's not cool. It was not cool. And it was just a year ago. Were you just giving a talk in there? No, I was just talking with somebody after mass. Yeah. You know, and somebody, fag. It's so childish. It is. It is. So funny. It really is. It makes no sense. Yeah, what an idiot. But as far as, I think that there are people who often adopt personas. Okay. And, and. Yeah, I guess that's true, too.

It's like why do big dudes in leather jackets who ride motorcycles act in a certain way? I mean, in some sense, it's choices that we make that may not be that conscious, but that we follow it down, and we have a particular thing we want to represent to the world. Well, and it's interesting, too,

that there's a documentary, I can't remember the name of it, but it talks about the kind of gay lisp that sometimes happens. And it was exploring where does it come from. Yeah, is it genetic? And really what it is is it has nothing to do with one's sexual attractions. It has to do with who you were around more when you were a child. And men who were primarily around women will kind

of have that feminine sort of thing that we attribute to the stereotypical thing. And I would say that's cruel. If people do that joke with trying to do the lisp. Let's talk about that quickly. Making fun of people with same-sex attraction.

See, the catechism is very clear that every sign of unjust discrimination should be avoided. And so I used to do the gay lisp and joke around. Yeah, and it was part of me trying to deflect. Oh, this is you joking. This isn't you bringing it on board. No, no. I would joke about it, partly in college to kind of deflect any suspicions that somebody had.

And it was not right. It was wrong. any suspicions that somebody had and it was not right. It was wrong. Jason Everett in his Ascension Presents video, I think they called it You, Y-O-U, he looks at the camera and he just says like, I want to apologize for all the ways that I made fun of people who said that they were gay or who were effeminate. Like not cool and I've repented before God, and I just want to say sorry, which I thought was a super cool thing to do.

And exactly right. We have to repent of that, and we have to stop it. We have to have control over that. You know, even in, like, Catholic circles, because we live in this day and age where everything is hyper-politicized and politically correct, that sometimes just for cathartic reasons, I and you, I'm sure, and others, you just want to say something that would offend a lot of people.

Just because, look, shut up. But suppose you're with a group of guys where you're doing that and there is someone there who's like, yeah, I experience same-sex attraction. And let's say I make a joke. Well, okay, well, I can never sort of talk to them. People reach out to me and talk to me, and they find me on Twitter or they find my email, and a guy wants to talk today, and he's in college, and nobody knows about these attractions that he has, and it's very hurtful for him when he's with his Catholic friends

and they make gay jokes or they do the lisp. And he says, if they only knew, what would they think of me? So, I mean, this is a very real thing that people are living with. And nobody knows that about him except me. I'm the second person he's told. Wow, wow. You must be so honored. Well, I am honored. To hear that from folks. It is. I'm the second person he's told. You must be so honored. Well, I am honored. To hear that from folks.

To trust you with that. And to be able to journey along with people in this. So I hope that the agony that I went through in college, I didn't feel I could talk to anybody. I mean, I'm a voice

that they can talk to who understands. Do you think in some ways the LGBTQ movement has been a blessing for people? Well, I think one of the good... Yes, actually. Not everything has to be. I would say this. Absolutely. I think we are living in a day and age where, thankfully, we can start to have conversations about this and where people,

especially young people, feel that they can talk about it. But the problem is right now is they think that the only people that are safe to talk to are other people who are part of the LGBT community. And so I think one thing we need to do in our churches is to regularly talk about this in our homilies, in our Catholic schools. How does a priest speak about same-sex attraction in a homily? You don't start with the immorality of the sexual acts. It's a question of identity above all else. This is the concluding chapter of my book that the most important thing I've arrived at is that I'm a beloved son of God. And so all sin basically is seeking out for happiness, right? We talked about that before.

And it's, we've forgotten our identity. I love that the moral pillar of the catechism begins with a quote from St. Gregory the Great. And it says, Christian, remember your dignity. And so we need to talk about the search for the belovedness, claiming our belovedness. I think what we all long to hear above everything else is what Jesus heard at the Jordan. Yeah. Here is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. That's it. That's what we want to hear?

That's all we want to hear. But how does a priest say that? So you talk about this. When it comes to pornography, right, I say to priests, and I got this from my friend Father Sean Kilcoley, he'll say to priests, you just have to say, there are dark places on the internet. That's all you have to say. Just by saying that, the parents are like, I know what he's talking about.

The kids are thinking zombie movie maybe. So it's a nice way to address it without scandalizing different people. How does one address? I think we have reached a point where it's so common in our culture, we have to start talking about it. You can say, maybe some of you here are questioning your own sexual identity. I think we have to start talking about that because that's what the culture is telling us. That's right. And they even say, maybe you live with same-sex attractions,

but you know what? That doesn't define you. Your belovedness by God defines you. I've heard a priest say that. My brother. Yeah, your brother's a priest. My brother's a priest. Have you heard a priest say that? My brother. Yeah, your brother's a priest. My brother's a priest. But not at a courage conference and not your brother.

Have you just randomly been at Holy Mass? No, it just never happens. It just never happens. If it did, what would that be like for you? Or what would that be like for you in your 30s if you had of went to Mass and you heard that? If I had heard from that priest, you know, from a priest or a pastor or whatever, I was evangelical for a while.

Yeah. The same message that Christ had with the woman caught in adultery. There's no condemnation. You're all right. You're all right. I love you. You're my beloved son. But now go and sin no more.

And you know what? Let's talk about it. This is not your identity, and we're going to walk through this together. I'm not going to leave you by your side. There's a great bishop in Scotland, Bishop John Keenan, and he's in Paisley. Does he wear a kilt? I have not asked. He does wear a red cap. And there's a young woman who reached out to me on Twitter, I have not asked. He does wear a red cap. All right. And there's a young woman who reached out to me on Twitter,

and he has become a spiritual father for her. Really? The bishop. Is she struggling? Not struggling. She's experiencing sense of distraction. And he's starting a courage ministry there. Bless him. And he has invested in her life as a father because her father doesn't

want to have anything to do with the family really he's in canada they're all in scotland and uh this he is being that father god the father at the journey here is my beloved daughter and who might well please and it has made all the difference in her life. It's amazing. It is. Tell us a little bit, you don't have to go into much detail if you don't want to, but like growing up, like did you know that you had same-sex attraction? Is this something, an event happened and then you're like, okay, is it something? I have so many questions, but you start and we'll go down there. So a lot of people will say, oh, you're born gay. Because a lot of people have this early recollection of an attraction.

Have you looked into the studies that would go to back up that assertion, that people are born heterosexual or homosexual? Yeah, so as just an aside, in 2004, the APA, the American Psychological Association, issued a bulletin on this where it said, recent studies suggest that this is many biological processes and things that are involved in that. But then in 2010, as more research came out, they had to change their statement to say, there is no consensus about this. So as we study more, there seems to be less of an evidence that we're born that way. There's no gay gene. The most recent, there was a 2010 study done of twins in Sweden, and nine

of, or seven of 71 twins had same-sex attraction together. So only 9.9% of twins where one had same-sex attraction, the other one did too. So clearly it's not a gay gene. There's a famous... And do you find that in the quote-unquote gay community, people want it to be one or the other? Because I could see some people say, no, my genes don't define me. I wasn't born this way. This is something I'm choosing because it's, well, I guess who I am or it's who I want to be and it makes me happy. Or would they rather say no? Is there a preference? I think that the overwhelming push is

to say that this is genetic and we're born that way. Because that's really what Obergefell was rooted in. This is who you are. Same-sex marriage is... The narrative changed consciously by the gay rights movement. Dennis Altman was a big activist in the gay rights movement, and he wrote in 1981 a book called

The Homosexualization of America. He said the greatest victory of the last decade for gay rights was changing the conversation from behavior to identity. And that was necessary to bring about Obergefell. If I'm a, like, just to go back to, like, pornosexual, like, if I'm a pornosexual, if that's who I am, and you criticize pornography, you're criticizing me now. Like, now it's, like, an injustice towards me.

Like, a bigoted statement. And I don't, I think you should drop the pornosexual analogy. Yeah, no, thanks. I want to be corrected. Why? Because. Does it sound condescending or trivializing? What it does is it, you know, all analogies fail at some point, right?

The thing about pornosexual, it's like, that just makes it look like somebody who identifies as gay just wants to get off. Do you know what I mean? That's why earlier you were saying it's much more about a sexual. Yeah. Got it. Yeah, it's like I just want to have this sexual pleasure. So people will say, oh, I don't identify with my sin. You know, that's a horrible analogy because, like, people say,

I don't say, what's the only people who identify with their sin? Well, a lot of people who identify as gay have never had any experience with another person. Okay. Right? What if they said, I don't identify with my disordered desires? Do you like that language or no? You have to understand that for good Catholics who try to be good Catholics like me, even for us, it's like, how do I navigate the language? Yeah, yeah.

But it's important that we do. Yeah, exactly. How do I navigate the language? Yeah, yeah. But it's important that we do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So one analogy that I used to use and I don't do anymore is I would view, I'd say, well, I view my same-sex attraction sort of like blindness. I don't see clearly.

And then it becomes very, what do you mean I'm blind? Right. Right? So comparing it to a disability, these are never helpful. Which is kind of what you did. Right, right, right, right. But it does help for somebody who's open to kind of start investigating these things rationally and intellectually. We can talk about it.

But I know a lot of times parents will come up to me after a talk and say, well, and they think they've just got to figure it out. So why just tell my daughter, you know, well, your Uncle Larry was an alcoholic. You know, he liked, why would he identify as an alcoholic, you know? And, you know, even though, like, Alcoholics Anonymous, they identify themselves as, I'm an alcoholic. I think that's a mistake. I think that's a mistake. But, you know, it's like, well, he had a drug addiction. Well, no, you don't talk about your uncle who had the drug addiction

in the same way you talk about your nephew who just thinks he's thinking about sharing a romantic life with a boy. Okay, yeah, flesh that out for us. Because it's so important that we balance truth and charity. I mean, charity always involves truth. Right, right. But I think sometimes there's a temptation when you meet, when you hear kind of the James Martin,

Father James Martin types in these LBGT ministries. It's so frustrating. You just want to speak clearly, but we should always speak with charity. And sometimes in our attempt to speak clearly, we just say things forcefully, but they're uncharitable. Yeah. I mean, one of the interesting things about this whole constellation of sexual identities of LGBTQ, there are some who would say, and it's hard not to find them somewhat humorous at times, right?

Because they're a bit absurd. But one of the identities is somebody says, I'm biromantic. I think I'm biromantic. What does that mean? It means they're not interested in a sexual relationship with someone, but they would like a romantic relationship

with either a man or a woman. So there's some aspect of asexuality in their identity so so um like at what point do you just start to make fun of this stuff because there is some aspect of it that's my point and i think this is kind of where it's like are we allowed to kind of be like oh come on that's just ridiculous or no do we have to be like hyper sensitive to everything like aromantic stuff and i romantic stuff yeah and then there's yeah what else is there there's there's a lot of ridiculous one of them is a

a demisexual demisexual means what it's part of the asexual umbrella okay and and it's demi is kind of like half sexual so they always want to attack us so word with a Latin word to make it sound some sort of sophisticated or justified. And so the demisexual is someone who says, well, I won't... Well, what it is is I can only be sexually attracted to someone that I'm romantically interested in.

There's all these re-equivocations and there's whole forums at Reddit that are making up new identities as we speak. Why are we doing this? And it's whole forums at Reddit that are making up new identities as we speak. Why are we doing this? And it's confusing. And so we have to bring the truth with charity and love. And let's think about it for a moment.

We are made in the image and likeness of the logos, the word. In the beginning was the word, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. The coherent word, yeah. The coherent word. The coherent word. And logos, Pope Benedict talked about logos means the creative wisdom of God. We have manipulated creation through the manufacturing of words. It is a modern Tower of Babel. I've got to find this quote while you're speaking. Yeah, please do. It's a modern Tower of Babel.

What did we say at Babel? Come let us make a name for ourselves. And so in the realm of human sexuality, we are making all these names for ourselves. But here's the thing. It's the people who adopt them really genuinely believe them. And so we have to treat them with tenderness and compassion. It's like... Even though it's absurd. The more crazy these identities become, the more we have to have compassion.

There's this line, I think it was in the First Vatican Council, I forget, maybe the second. When God is forgotten, the creature grows unintelligible. What do you reckon about that? Well, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. When God is forgotten. The creature becomes unintelligible. Now, I don't think it's like people are like,

I don't believe in God anymore. And so it's like, well, maybe it does eventually lead to that where it's like, there is no natural teleology. There might be a biological teleology, right? Eyes are for seeing, my whatever, the testicles are to create sperm. Let's not talk about my testicles, just testicles in general

you know um but then when it's like but if there's no purpose and order to the universe if this is just one giant cosmic accident in which we find ourselves if we have been coughed into existence by this blind random cosmic process that didn't have us in mind, then what's your choice? It's like, well, what the heck? Make the best of it. Do whatever to... But even if that's the case, even if there was no God,

there is some order to the universe that we can discern. The reason we... How do we know how to take care of the environment? Everybody cares about the environment. Yeah. Right? I mean, we can discern. The reason we, how do we know how to take care of the environment? Everybody cares about the environment. We can analyze the situation. We can look with our rational mind. The whole medical field

is derived from investigating the body and arriving at therapies to deal with it. So there is an intelligence to the body. There's an intelligibility to the body. And we are wise if we use it in accordance to that design. There has been a separation between morality and teleology where we think the two have nothing to do with each other. So the Aristotelian Thomistic understanding of morality is

if you want to be happy, to the degree in which you can be happy in this life, you can't be fully happy because you've been made for the beatific vision. But to the degree in which you can, if you want to be happy, to the degree in which you can be happy in this life, you can't be fully happy because you've been made for the beatific vision. But to the degree in which you can, if you want to be happy, then act rightly. And I think Aquinas says somewhere that to the theologian, sin is an offense against God. To the philosopher, it's an abuse of reason. So to act reasonably is to act virtuously, which is what will make us happy. But we've lost that so much.

It's like morality is so that you can be happy. So when you say you do you, that might just mean follow any disordered desire that you have and see how that works out. And this is where it comes back to something we said earlier. I need to be honest with who I am. Right? Yeah. That has been the great journey of my life. Who am I?

And for a time I said I am gay because that's the way I'm defined. And the world says it. It makes sense. I'm attracted to men. Therefore, I am gay. But as I wrestled with that some more, who am I really? My body reveals that truth to me. We've separated the two and now we malform the body to match the mind

sometimes. It's this trench. Talk about this bloke you saw on the airplane. Yeah, I saw a fellow on the airplane one time heading out west, and I saw this guy walking down the aisle, and everybody turned their heads and stared. Well, he had the Guinness Book of World Records. What do I type in? Type in tiger, cat, tattoo man. Tiger.

He had a Guinness Book of World Record for the most body modifications to look like an animal. This dude here, huh? That's him, yeah. I'm so afraid to click images. Just click images. There he is right there. Yes, this fellow. This fellow.

He was on a plane with me. Yeah. And it's sad. So he had silicone implants in his cheeks. Oh, bless him. And fangs put in there, and he identifies as a tiger. And he has chosen to be that identity. Sadly, the fellow committed suicide. Now, so it's a lot of people would say, well, how can you make that comparison? It's insensitive to somebody who identifies and says, I think I'm born in the wrong sex. You know, I have only compassion for people like that.

But I do not think compassion means destroying the human body. I mean, physicians, what was the Hippocratic Oath? Yeah, do no harm. Do no harm. You know, it's madness what we have supported in the name of this certain ideology which says who you think yourself is who you are. And one thing I point out is the logical progression of this. You know, the story of Rachel Dolezal, somebody, I don't know if your viewers would be familiar with it, I don't know if your viewers would be familiar with it, but a woman who was born Caucasian, and she later said she identified as African American.

Okay, yeah. And she became the head of the NAACP in Spokane, Washington, and it was later revealed that she truly is this Caucasian person. And she was given an interview, and she said, how I feel myself to be is more true than how I was born. And so she... Trying to wrap my head around that. Yes. And so I think the good news that the church has is how you were born is more important than how you feel. And that's where you're going to have peace. The saddest thing that I've ever heard about the people who identify as transgender is that 40% of them have attempted suicide or succeed. Now, people will say the reason for that is because of transphobia.

And, you know, if you look at any other circumstance where people have suffered tremendous psychological duress, look at prisoners of war in Vietnam. Look at the Holocaust. That's profound psychological duress. The rates of suicide and attempted suicide were nowhere near 40%. So there's something going on here. And what is it? It's a dissonance with reality. Dissidence with reality.

And out of love for people that we care about who identify as transgender say, I want to hear your story. Let me hear your story. And journey with them, but don't encourage them to malform their body, which is permanent. Yeah. I mean, that's not love. How can that be a hateful thing to say? It's funny, eh? 2018. Yeah. Because I would think 50 years ago, if you're like, if you're a dude who thinks you're a woman, you probably shouldn't cut your penis off. You probably shouldn't do that. It's like, bigot.

Yeah. Hate speech. That somehow is hateful. And now they're entering, these dear people are entering these competitions, sporting competitions, and are crushing the ladies, and you can't say anything about it. No. And, you know, this is where Isaiah, the prophet Isaiah, he says, you turn things upside down.

You know, and we have. And how long will society accept this delusional view? It's not right. And, of course, this is the sort of, this is a transphobic. Yeah. No, this is love. of, this is transphobic. Yeah. No, this is love. Yeah. This is love.

And we need to be confident of that. And the more, the louder the voices say that you can't talk about this anymore. No, we have the path to peace and freedom. And that came from Jesus Christ. And every Sunday, I love this about the Nicene Creed. We talk about the goodness of male and female because we say Jesus who became man incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. There is male and female right there.

Jesus wasn't just flesh or just wasn't spirit who looked like he was in a body. He wasn't a sexless widget. Exactly. And Mary lived out her sexual orientation by giving birth to Jesus. And it's so absurd to think about was Jesus born as a straight man, incarnate as a straight man? And did Mary realize her straight identity? These languages are so reductionist,

and we need to help the world be free of them. Yeah, so don't even engage somebody necessarily with those categories. Or first perhaps point out why you disagree with the categories. And say, you know, I think it's another interesting way to talk about it to say, well,

we have these different attractions, should we make an identity and we could talk about the goodness of male and female. Yeah. But this all came because you asked

about my childhood. Well, yeah, and I know we've talked about this elsewhere so I don't want to do like a deep dive into this necessarily but I think

that is just one of the questions I had is like, when did you know you're like oh wow I'm sexually attracted to men and so the first moment I remember being attracted to somebody of the same

sex was first grade this guy on the kickball team that was very athletic and I wasn't me neither, always picked last for soccer yeah, me too but anyway I wished I was like that guy Me neither. Yeah. I always picked last for soccer. Yeah. Me too. But anyway, I wished I was like that guy. Yeah. And I found a way to touch the muscles in his arms.

You touched his muscles. Yeah. And I think about that. The seeds of that doubts about masculinity. Right. But then when puberty hit, I found my attractions for men. I just never felt like I was part of the company of other boys. I just felt like I was on the outside looking in always.

Do you find that people with same-sex attraction identify with what you just said there? Like the men you know, is that a similar experience? Very often. There was somebody at my talk last night. He kept nodding his head when I saw him, and I know him. He felt outside that company of boys. One of the things that is important for both men and women, for boys and girls, is to feel that sort of journey into our masculine identity.

Usually the father does that. And you think about how many cultures have had these rites of passages. They were so beautiful. And they did important things for one's development that way. And so I just never, I never felt, I always felt outside that company. And then I was kind of a, somehow I felt, I always felt I was pudgy and skinny at the same time. You know, like a weakling. It was a weakling. And other people, I was kind of a late bloomer, you know, and it just, I wasn't very athletic. And then I started, you know, admiring these guys, and that admiration turned into some sexual arousal.

And then pornography came into my life life and that was devastating to me. And it gave me a distorted view of human sexuality. And I felt rejected by girls. And so I saw these men who were ridiculous caricatures in porn. And I thought, I can never be this athletic jock guy. And they seemed to be the ones who got the women. I'm never going to get them. So then I started being aroused by them.

Then ultimately there was no attraction to women. I was rejected by girls. And by the time I was in my 20s, I just had zero attraction for women. I want you to tell us a story about how you went to a strip club and what that was about. We're going to get some vodka here. That's stronger. The time you went into a strip club

I was on a research expedition. It was, you know, I had my clipboard in hand. So I had no attraction to women at all. And I had this idea of God's plan for humanity. I thought God, through Christ, all things are possible. Can you bring me a woman or take these attractions away?

But I would sometimes look at women in porn, see if there was an arousal. None. I said, well, maybe an in-the-flesh woman could somehow stir something. Yeah. So I was on my way to Chicago, and I stopped in at this little seedy strip club and walked in there. And this woman waltzed over to me, scantily clad. And I just got my lab coat on, and I'm observing. No, no reaction, no nothing.

To be clear, it wasn't a physical clip. No. There's going to be someone out there being like, that is so weird. That is so weird. No, in my mind, no nothing. To be clear, it wasn't a physical clip. No. There's going to be someone out there being like, that is so weird. That is so weird. No, in my mind, I have. I'm just taking observations. Yeah, yeah. No, she's not really doing nothing.

And she sat down, and this big bouncer guy comes over. You know, gentleman buys a lady a drink. So I had to buy a $20 Pepsi. And, you know, I'm such a gentleman being here in a strip club. Right. Gentleman's club. I know. It's so funny.

It's just ridiculous. Language. It's just horrible. Well, she sits down, and, of course, she wants to try to get a lap dance from me. And I'm like, it's not going to happen. And I said, well, what's your name? You know? Well, and she told me.

It was probably some fictitious name you know Mercedes yes exactly don't do that lisp sorry that was a woman it was a woman I don't know how to act I heard brandy rippers who were like we're saying what do you what are you using Mercedes why don't you call yourself something else? Well, we name ourselves what we want. I heard a comedian say, well, what about tonight on the dance floor, dignity, which is a little offensive.

Well, but kind of funny. Kind of funny. But kind of funny. But there will be hateful comments in the YouTube section below. Well, what is YouTube for other than generating... To be upset. Yes. To generate outrage. Okay, so... YouTube for other than generating... To be upset. Yes.

Generate outrage. Okay, so what's her name? I'm going to call her name Brandy. I think it was Brandy, actually. And we started talking about... So it was a beautiful day out there, isn't it? Yeah, and she said, I can't wait until I get off of work

because she was doing the morning shift. And I said, well, what are you going to do? I'm going to go out vegetable gardening. Oh, you like to garden? And we started talking about gardening. And I said, well, what do you going to do? I'm going to go out vegetable gardening. Oh, you like to garden? And we start talking about gardening. And I said, well, what do you garden? I garden heirloom tomatoes. And she's like, oh, I love a brandy wine.

Oh, the brandy wine is a great slicing tomato. Oh. Just for your record. Did not know that. Yeah. How do they look any different? They're bulbous and kind of ugly, but they taste great. I think I know the ones you mean.

Yeah. The ones that kind of look nasty and they always have splits in them. They're normal splits, but they taste great. They do taste great. Now, getting back to the strip club. Back to Brandy. Back to Brandy. We need some Brandy.

Yeah. I'll find some. Yeah. But she, we started talking about gardening, and she gave me some pointers for freezing vegetables. I still use these. Freezing? Freezing vegetables. I said, I have all these tomatoes who come,

and I don't know what to do. Well, you got to freeze them and use a Ziploc bag, and you can get all the air out with a straw. I still use it. It's amazing. It's a cheap vacuum seal that she taught me. But what I realized is there was no attraction to brandy at all, but I made a friend. But to tomatoes. But tomatoes. Let me tell you. And what I do see in that moment, though, there's something beautiful that. There really is.

It's almost like it was a place designed for you two to consume each other in the worst possible way. But instead of consuming each other as objects, you saw each other as persons. Yeah. In the last place that you would think would happen. I mean, it was set up. The entire environment was set up so that you wouldn't see her humanity. Yeah, and they're in a strip club. And this is why I think there is so much compassion that Jesus has for people who are caught up in a strip club

or somebody like me who is addicted to porn or confused about his sexuality. And he just, I want you to see each other. And, you know, this is one of the most important things that somebody ever told me about pornography. Try to see the dignity of that person, you know? Yeah. But after that situation with the strip club, I thought there was no hope for me to be married.

And the problem is I equated hope with my vision of what God's plans for me would be. And what was that? I thought God had to make me happy the way I wanted to be happy. And the only way I could imagine being happy is being married and have a family. My view with God was like a contract. I'm a good Christian boy. I'm going to save myself for my wife. Maybe I'll have this struggle with pornography, but you're going to give me that wife. That's the vision that I have for happiness. You know, God, I could never have envisioned here

having a good time with Matt Fred on the Matt Fred Show, the inaugural show, and going around the world talking about this experience. The good news. The good news of what God has done in my life. Yeah. I could never imagine that. And that's far richer for me than what I imagined for myself.

So, okay, here's a question I actually don't understand. So if what you're saying is same-sex attraction is something you think is probably something you're not born with, but that it comes about through some series of events, right? Is that your decision? And some might be physiological or biological. So if that's the case, wouldn't it stand to reason that it could be undone, quote unquote? Because it sounds like you're against therapy that would seek to...

Yeah, we never really wrapped up that conversation. I am not against therapy to see if people might find some healthy integration in their sexuality. This is what the catechism says. Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality in the unity of the body and the soul. And this means things are kind of working in connection with each other. I have no doubt that I could be married to a woman and share my life with her at this point. I have no doubt about that. But one of the signs... Give your email. One of the signs of that would be... Hey, we are back. We just had a power outage because someone doesn't like us, apparently. So we're back.

Everything good? The sound's good? Everything going? All right. They're giving us the thumbs up. It's good. It's good. All right.

It's good. All is good. So we were talking about reparative therapy. That's where we ended. Right. And so the idea, I kind of, and I think the church rejects the premise of the orientations, right? But I think people should have the right of self-determination, and if someone wants to see if through therapy they can solve some of these issues

or resolve some of these issues, they should have every right to do that. solve some of these issues and resolve some of these issues, they should have every right to do that. I think where problems enter in is when people give false hopes. I think a lot of times damage was done to people, and we have to be honest with that. False hopes that, like, if you're just having therapy with me for two years, suddenly you're... The idea of moving from gay to straight or pray with a gay. I mean, there's a false notion. And a lot of damage was done, especially in the evangelical community, with kind of that health and wealth gospel.

That if you have enough faith in God, then God's going to make this change. And if you don't have that change, then it's a sign that your faith is not resilient. And I'm grateful the Catholic Church has never went that path. The call of the church is chastity. And so I think what I like, therapists who engage in chastity-based therapy, and that's talking about what I said before, that the catechism's definition of chastity is the successful integration of human sexuality in the union of his body and soul. And I know a lot of men who lived this gay life for a long time, and now they've become married. And they're happy, and they're not pretending. They don't have to sit there and pretend with their wife that they're with a man. And that narrative is not out there.

That's inconvenient to the narrative that is out there. These attractions are immutable. They're not immutable. At the same time, we can't pose false hope to people, and this is where the beautiful theology of the church enters in. What is the response to God Jesus his prayer may this cup pass even so thy will be done and total abandonment to divine providence has been fundamental to me I put myself in the palm of God's hands and why worry about tomorrow today has enough trouble of its own if I'm going to be married I know that God will bring a woman in my life like he brought Eve to Adam, and I'll recognize that she is a suitable companion for me. And the reason that we'd get married is not necessarily to end my

loneliness, though that might be part of it, but it's for my sanctification. You know, marriage is about our mutual sanctification, right? And so we have to have the right view of marriage. Sometimes people say, oh, the only thing that's going to make you happy is marriage. Well, talk to people who have been married. You realize that marriage is not the recipe of your ultimate happiness. Thanks be to God. It's a source of joy like other things are a source of joy, and it's a beautiful thing. But, yeah, the idea that once I get married, I'll be fulfilled and happy.

No. It's a great way to have a bad marriage, coming to it with that. Let's talk about James Martin. Okay. And by James Martin, I mean Father James Martin. I apologize. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful there. So Father James Martin wrote a book called Building Bridges.

Building Bridge. Building a Bridge. Building a Bridge. Right. So it's all about trying to reach out to the LGBT community, to help us reach out to them, and maybe to help build a bridge for them back to us. I get the sense, and I'm willing to be corrected here,

that Father James Martin, he emulates Christ when Christ says to the woman caught in adultery, no one's here judging you. Like, I'm not judging you. You know, like this love. It seems like he has this genuine love for people who are struggling with this. He wants them to feel included. But I don't hear him say the second half of what Christ said, go sin no more. Am I wrong? Am I missing something?

Is he saying that and I just haven't heard it? Is it in the book? Does he specify the church's teaching? Does he agree with the Catholic church? Well, when I read Father James Martin's book, I was very moved by his heart of love and compassion. It was motivated. It was first the talk that he gave, and the talk, and then the book was motivated by the tragic events at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, which was a gay nightclub, and I think 52 people died.

And as somebody who, I never really went to many gay bars. I didn't like that environment, but I went to a few. And anybody who has gone to those, I mean, it filled me with sorrow, you know, to know that that took place. And I think the book was released on the one-year anniversary of the Pulse shooting. And so he wrote very eloquently about that tragedy and then the need for the church to really heed what the catechism says. And the catechism says that men and women like me should be treated with sensitivity, compassion, and respect. And any signs of unjust discrimination need to be avoided,

and these are all true and good. Father Martin, however, doesn't really focus on the church's moral teaching. Now, in his second book, he did include the catechism's three paragraphs in his book. But he purposely, he says, he didn't talk about the morality issues because this hasn't been received, he says, by the LGBT community. But the 1986 letter on the pastoral care of the homosexual person, which I've alluded to before, says that it's not pastoral, truly, to not include that part of the church's teaching in an attempt to be pastoral. And it says a beautiful line, only what is true is ultimately pastoral. So this is where it's both and.

And it's confusing to me why Father Martin doesn't talk about that enough. But also at the same point, he's a priest. He says one of the other reasons he didn't talk about this is because he's not a moral theologian. However, as a priest who needs to hear confession, certainly he knows that some of the behaviors that these men and women in the LGBT community are engaging in are sinful. And he needs to know which of those. Sinful. And he needs to know which of those, he has to have enough moral theology to know why these are sins and why the church is teaching on chastity is good news.

So I think, I admire Father James Martin's heart for men and women who have hurt and been hurt by the church at times. But I just wish he would invite people into the fullness of the faith. Could you say, and it might be a little cheeky to say, you wish he would love them more, like the whole way, as opposed to just, I'm sorry you're hurting, which is a legitimate first stage of dialogue. That's the first point of dialogue. Not just legitimate, but warranted and beautiful and good. Well, this is where he makes a good point.

He says dialogue is so important. And we can look at the example of the woman at the well. I mean, Christ, they were united in a shared desire for thirst. They were thirsty, right? Can you give me a drink of water? So Christ is dialoguing and starts talking with her and starts finding out about her life and the five men she's been with. But then

he speaks more into her life, inviting her into the living water. And it doesn't seem to be what Father James is doing. Well, and this is at least not in his book and in his public speaking. He just really doesn't talk about that much. He seems to equate it with non-intrinsically evil acts. In certain Q&A. Well, he talks about, this is interesting, because the catechism language, it falls hard on the ears. It calls the inclination

objectively disordered. Now, it's not sinful to have the attractions to the same sex, but they are objectively disordered. And Father Martin has suggested that that's needlessly hurtful language. Needlessly hurtful language. Whereas for me, I view it as loving language in the same way that if I'm at the edge of the Grand Canyon, I see a sign, don't step any further than this because there's a cliff here. Could you put yourself back when you were 30, living with your boyfriend? If you had read Father James Martin's book, heard him speak, what would that have been like for you you and would have that led you back into the church, into a life of chastity? This is just a personal thing. I'm not saying this to be everyone's experience. Hypothetically speaking, I would have been disappointed that he wasn't fully reflecting

the church's teaching. I would feel that I was being played. Really? I mean, the honest truth is because... Like pandered to a little? And that's the honest truth is because I made a conscious choice to reject the church's teaching, but I saw the inherent integral order to it, that it made sense to me.

I could never buy this idea that somehow God saw me as differently ordered or whatever. I knew that what I was doing was outside of God's creative will. My intellect said that. My rational brain said that. I could never accept revisionist gay theology. That would have done injury to my brain. So if I were to read Father Martin's book, I'd say, and a lot of people have on the other side.

You're just kind of giving us platitudes. Some people who really are angry at the church, I say, Father Martin, where are you on this? You're giving me some platitudes here. Give me an answer here. Give me an answer. Do you really believe the church is right in this, or should the church change its teaching? And what does he say? Why don't people ask him this?

He's coming to speak here in Atlanta soon. Well, he has been asked this, and he says, though he will never challenge the church's teaching. But does he state it? Thankfully, it is in the second book, but I don't, he just doesn't focus on that in the talks. I mean, look, if Father Martin's watching this, I think I would say, I'm not a psychologist, and even if I were, I wouldn't be able to read your mind. But as a Catholic who's trying to be a faithful Catholic, you at least need to know that many people get the sense that you really don't believe the church is teaching that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil.

church is teaching that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil. Yeah, I just... Whether you do or don't, you need to know that people, we would like some clarity. And clarity isn't a bad thing. Well, some people have asked him for that clarity. And in an America Magazine article, he did state clearly the church's teaching. It was an excellent explanation. the church's teaching. It was an excellent explanation.

But he said in a line there, he says, as a Catholic priest, I will never challenge the church's teaching. And the question I've asked is to say that you won't challenge it. That's like a university professor who really doesn't believe the church's teaching, but he signs something and says, well, I'm not going to challenge it. That's what it sounds like. It sounds like you don't believe it. Just saying you're not going to challenge the church's teaching, but he signs something, so he's like, well, I'm not going to challenge it. That's what it sounds like. It sounds like you don't believe it. Just saying you're not going to challenge the church's teaching is very different to saying, I also agree with it. If I could have a chat...

Again, I'm not trying to put words into his mouth. Maybe he does agree with it. If I could have a chat with Father Martin over a cup of coffee and have a dialogue, I'd say, I would want to know, I said, well, do you think that this is good news for me? Do you think that the church's teaching is good news for me and for everyone else? You'd probably say yes, don't you think? I think he would. I hope he would because it is good news.

And so, you know, the church's teaching is liberating. It's good news. Yeah. And I don't think, I'm grateful that no one in my life Church's teaching is liberating. It's good news. And I don't think, I'm grateful that no one in my life. Why doesn't he promote courage? I'm sorry, I'm totally interrupting you. I just find myself frustrated, and there's a lot of viewers who are frustrated as well. You do a great job speaking with clarity and charity, love, gentleness.

I'm just kind of freaking sick of it. We had two priests giving each other fellatio in Florida and they were detected by a cop recently, right? We've got like a lot of predation. Well, a lot of the predation on younger men is from homosexual priests acting out on post-pubescent men. So it seems like there's a homosexual problem in the priesthood, correct me or add to it, it's just that when this is such a huge issue and when it seems like you've got these orgies in the Vatican with bishops or cardinals, that's a fact, right? That's not speculation, it happens. When

this is happening, like when archbishops are being found with like male prostitutes and stuff, like when archbishops are being found with like male prostitutes and stuff, shouldn't we be clear on this? Because it's not helpful to me. Well, I mean, let's be honest here. We're celebrating the 50th anniversary of Humanae Vitae. Right. Right?

Which made it very clear that what God's design for human sexuality is, and specifically on contraception. Now, if is, and specifically on contraception. Now, if you shift your thinking on contraception, and a lot of people did back then. There was the Land O'Lakes statement, which said that, you know, basically that the church is wrong on this, and we should embrace contraception. As soon as you cross that line, it's a natural step to approving of homosexuality. Because contraception by its very nature is sort of a homosexualization of male, female sex. Because sex between two men or two women is by its very nature infertile and sterile. And not really sex. And not really sex.

It's a genital, it's a use of the genitals to derive pleasure. And so contraception does the same thing. It's intentionally a infertile or sterile act and it's using the other person as an object for pleasure. And even if that's mutually used, we're agreeing to it, you're still using each other for an object. So I think what we really had, we had a lot of priests who never believed the church's teaching. They wanted it to change. The seminaries had a lot of confusion around sexual morality, and there was a lot of laxity. Meanwhile, the sexual revolution is exploding all around the church. And the Vatican in 1961 made it clear that men with homosexual inclinations should not become priests. And that was reiterated in 2002 by Pope Benedict.

And think about that. That was his first public statement that he issued was on the discernment of of homosexual people in the seminaries and that was when the scandal broke here and then it was reiterated again in 2016 by Pope Francis. It's important people know that. Yes. So Pope Francis said what? He said affirming the 2002 document that that men with deep-seated homosexual inclinations should not be admitted to the seminary. And this summer, in a private meeting with the Italian bishops, he said, if there is any doubt about, he said, a gay seminary, they should not be ordained. Why? This is the question a lot of faithful Catholics have.

Because, okay, love people with same-sex attraction, not discriminating against them. Doesn't it seem unjust? And aren't you sort of insinuating that there's something so profoundly wrong with you that who knows what the heck you'll end up doing? Yeah, and that's an important part of this conversation. I believe that men with same-sex attraction should not be ordained to the priesthood. Why? I'll get to that, but at the same time, by me saying that from my own convictions, I also want to avoid people assuming that men with same-sex attraction are therefore likely predators. The two do not go necessarily hand-in-hand.

That's good to reiterate that, yeah. However, so when we look at the scandal, the studies of that, 80% of the victims were male. And of those, 95% were post-pubescent boys. So they had reached sexual maturity. These are homosexual acts. These are homosexual acts. These are homosexual acts. And pedophilia is, by its very nature, it doesn't matter the sex.

It's the youth that is sexually attracted somehow to these poor people. But when we're talking about post-pubescent boys who have reached sexual maturity, even though they're not mature, they're still children. This is like McCarrick. Wasn't the main or the primary or the one case? He was 11. He was 11. I think he was 11 at the time.

Maybe he was 16. I don't know. But he was post-pubescent. And so this has always been viewed as a form of homosexuality. Its technical term is ephebophilia. Right. That word was... I think that comes from the word of the kind of bum fluff

that a young man begins to develop around himself. But that word was created in 1906, and it's always been considered a part of homosexuality. So we are talking about the vast majority of this abuse was connected with homosexuality. So we are talking about the vast majority of this abuse was connected with homosexuality. And the media doesn't want to touch this. No, of course. I mean why would they go after McCarrick? He's just being him, right? You be you. That's all he's doing. He's just expressing his sexuality. And drop this like it's hot. I sit there and I think, what would the church look like today if our bishops and our seminaries took seriously the Vatican's own council of 1961?

We would have been saved from a lot. Okay, but here's what I don't understand. Because you're saying those who exhibit signs, I think you said, of same-sex attraction ought not to be ordained priests. But at the same time, you're trying to make it clear, I'm not saying if you have same-sex attraction, you're more likely to be the sort of person that will prey on someone. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, so we can distinguish a few things.

First off, let's talk about why somebody with same-sex attractions probably shouldn't be a priest. The Catechism and the Vatican, when it talks about this, it talks about something called effective maturity. Okay. All right? And what is effective maturity? Well, it's the ability to relate with men and women in a true and healthy manner. And that means I see you, Matt, not as a potential sexual object. I don't, by the way. But that I see you just as a man. And there would never be any sort of romantic or

sexual attraction. Maybe there'd be some passionate attraction that somebody has. This is not to say, there's a distinction between transitory same-sex attractions and deep-seated homosexual inclination. And it's never really clearly stipulated, okay? But the question of effective maturity is discussed. And this is somebody who is well-integrated in their sexuality. They can relate in a healthy way with men and women. And this leads to another point that we don't talk enough about. Christ

gave up his own sexuality for the sake of the kingdom. Celibacy for the kingdom. This is what priests are called to do. So they're giving up a natural good, which is marriage, for the sake of the bride of Christ. And Pope Benedict, in his book-length interview called In the Light of the World or The Light of the World, he said homosexuality is incompatible with the priesthood. It's a direct quote.

And he says, for men who do not see marriage and fatherhood as a real good for themselves that they long for and desire and can relate with a woman fully as a sexual creature and therefore be a good wife and a good father, those people who don't experience that are not giving up celibacy for the kingdom in the way that Jesus Christ did. It's almost like de facto. Yeah, it's like a default state. And so then I'm entering into celibacy basically out of obedience to the call of chastity rather than offering up my celibacy as a gift that I'm giving to God for the kingdom. And that's not to say, God forbid, I don't want to conclude either that men and women,

God forbid, I don't want to conclude either that men and women, or men rather, no women, men who have had these deep-seated inclinations have been priests and have been good priests. I think of Henry Nowen. Did he say he had the same situation? Yeah, towards the end of his life. Wow, beautiful writer. Yeah, beautiful writer. But there is also another aspect that I see in his own journey that points to some of this effective immaturity. There's an interesting moment in The Return of the Prodigal Son where

he went...it's a beautiful book, helped me a lot. I don't know much about him, I shouldn't say up front. No, I'll just tell you a little bit about it. He was going through a crisis of ministry, and he really was moved by Rembrandt's portrait of the prodigal son, Return of the Prodigal Son. It's beautiful. That's way more beautiful than that. How do you spell Rembrandt? R-E-M-B-R-A-N-D-T. It's a beautiful picture. But he was trying to sort out who he was in that image. And he kept saying, well, am I the prodigal son?

Am I the elder son? And one of his friends said, Father, you have been searching for the approval of people your whole life, searching for friends and close relationships. We don't want a friend. We want a father. You need to embrace your identity not as the elder son or the younger son, but as the father. And this was late. He said it took him 30 years to realize this. And I think God used

his journey to discovering his true calling as a father to help a lot of people, including me. But when I found out that he lived with same-sex attraction, I understood why I resonated with his writing so much. Because he was always longing for friends and never felt comfortable in his own security. And the honesty with which he writes really means a lot to people. So here's the thing that happens. The grace of ordination, if we cooperate with it, if men who are ordained, even with deep-seated homosexual tendencies, as long as they cooperate with that ordination of the priesthood

and take chastity seriously, they're going to be good priests. But if they compromise that. And do you suspect that much of this abuse was by priests who perhaps weren't taking their call to chastity seriously? Yes, absolutely. Because if you're saying like being a homosexual. How could they be taking it seriously? They violate it.

Well, that's right. But my question is being a homosexual doesn't make you more likely to prey upon people is what you've said. So why is it that we don't see sort of 50-50 or just as many people preying on younger girls, even post-pubescent women? What's the reason for that? This is what we... Is it because a lot of priests, maybe people went into the seminary

back in the 70s, 80s, maybe it was a social stigma or a bit of embarrassment that you were gay or you didn't want to see you all go to the priesthood. And at least people stopped asking me questions. Is that a legitimate thing? Was that happening? Well, I mean, there was a lot of people who entered the priesthood to stop the questions. But that's not... So why don't we see as much abuse of young women?

Do you know? It's okay if you don't. I'm just curious. I don't have an answer for that. But this is one thing that we have to investigate. But what we do know is there was a great number of young men, post-abortion boys, who were abused. And it coincided with a laxity in the seminaries about admitting men with deep-seated homosexual inclinations.

And you were saying earlier, I just want to clarify this to people, you're not saying priests watching this has same-sex attraction. You're not like, well, you shouldn't be a priest. You should get a husband. No, no. That's not what you're saying. No, there's a priest I know that I often think about when I talk about this, because I want to be charitable,

but I also want to be honest about this and my own concerns. I've got to speak from my own convictions about this. But there was a priest I know who has had a great ministry with men dying from AIDS. Wow. And I know that he has gone to those clinics because of his own compassion for them. Yeah. He's a good and holy man and a good and holy priest. Glory.

And by talking about this, we cannot do this and say that all priests who have same-sex attractions shouldn't have become priests. Okay. Yeah. Because you think about that grace of ordination is powerful. And the question is are they cooperating with that grace or not? And if they are, they're going to be good and holy men. Alright, well look, this has been awesome. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a break. And we're going to come back and we're going to take some questions from our patrons.

Fantastic. Sound good? Boom. You're on. Hey, we're back. It's good to have you. We're doing this great little interview here with Dan Mattson. Dan, we're out of coffee. We're out of coffee. What are we going to do, Matt?

I was thinking what we could do. Right? Sounds perfect. The only problem with doing these YouTube videos live is they know how early it is in the day. It's not that early. Isn't it? It's the afternoon. All right, cool.

All right, so thanks to everybody who is watching at home. We're going to have some bourbon, which we will not name. We will not name that bourbon. We don't want you to be sued. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. That's what he said. Are you a bourbon drinker?

I love bourbon. What's your favorite drink? If you could only have one drink for the rest of your life and it wasn't beer? It would be bourbon. Really? It would be. Why bourbon? Well, it's American, for crying out loud.

It's bloody American. Bloody American. Cheers. Sláinte. Sláinte. That's a taste of American goodness, my friend. It is. I love America. That is a good one. I, my friend. It is. I love America.

That is a good one. I'm so happy to be living here. Thanks for letting me be here, by the way. Well, I'm an immigrant. Have we decided? Is it official? You've decided up until now. I don't know what's going to...

We'll see what happens after this YouTube video. Exactly. Oh, my God. This is a very fine bourbon. It is good. It's a very fine bourbon. Thanks, Danny. Thank you.

He's gone, is he? All right, look. So here's what we want to do. We want to take some questions from Patreon. So I want to let you know that if you like these videos, if you like my podcast, Pints with Aquinas, and you want to support this content, we just had somebody support the other day.

He said he was like paying monthly fees to Hulu. And then he's like, I don't like all the morality on Hulu. I'm like supporting this, like Netflix, for example, just did this whole thing where they were like glorifying abortion. I'm not saying cancel these things and support me, but bloody well support me. So the way you would do that is by going to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd and give whatever you want.

And I send you free stuff in return. You can get the Pints of Aquinas beer stein sent to you, which you're going to have, by the way. You can take that home. Thank you. Isn't that amazing? It is amazing. It's beautiful.

If you hit a heretic in the head with that. Well, it's going to leave a mark. It won't break the stein, I'll tell you that much. It's handmade, I noticed. And, yes, it's hand spun. Every one of them is personally handmade. My book, I'll send you a signed copy of my book. All this stuff.

So I just want to let you know that. Go to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. So what I want to do is ask you some of the questions from the people who are on Patreon. So let's just jump into it. First question comes from the one and only Philip Haddon. He asks, Finally, Philip Haddon, he asks, what's the easiest way to convey the teleological argument in favor of the Catholic view of marriage?

I have very intelligent patrons. You do. I should have pointed that out. He said, or simply, what is the purpose of the institution of marriage? And how can we use this to convey that love is love is tautological nonsense because relationships that exhibit love are indeed different. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, we do not know what love means anymore. It's just become this sentimental aspect. First of all, I would appeal to natural law. We already talked about

this a little bit. That insight from Jay Budachewski about the fact that the reproductive system is between male and female, That cannot be denied by people. That points to the natural law. But we also have to talk about the nature of human reproduction. Aquinas talks about this, our good friend Aquinas, in Contra Gentilis. He talks on marriage against Gentiles. But he talks about marriage and he says,

there is a difference between the animal kingdom and reproduction and human reproduction. Marriage is ultimately less about the couples than it is the offspring. Interesting. We've got that backwards in society. It's all about the happiness of me and my wife. Because he points out in nature that let's take many animals, like dogs, the male does

not have to stick around. But look at, say, penguins, empire penguins. The male and female stay together because the offspring require it. Right? Really? Oh, yeah. One of them will stay with the egg. Yeah.

And then the other one goes fishing. Yeah. And then when the egg hatches, one will keep the hatchling warm. The other one goes feeds. Then it comes back, and then the other one goes. So it's a team effort. In the case of man, it takes 18 years to raise a child. So marriage is about the children and their education.

And society has an interest in protecting and preserving that for the sake of society and for the sake of children. So that's what we have to focus on. Marriage is not so much about my subjective level of happiness as it is about any children that might result from our offspring. And children, we know, do best, and therefore society does best if man and woman stay together for life. And this is why no-fault divorce is a problem. And sadly, that has messed up society. So I hope that answers that question. Good question. Good answer. Thank you, Philip. Next question comes from Nelio Sedrina. Sedina? She's going to regret asking this question. Nelio Sedina, thank you

Nelio for being a patron. You say, how can I approach an atheist and explain the Catholic position with charity? So the church is... On this issue. You know, a friend of mine in the Courage apostolate had this conversation with somebody who wasn't a believer. And nobody has really heard this idea that our feelings don't define us in the sexual realm.

And we've been talking about this whole conversation. Atheists pride themselves on their rational thinking, right? They really elevate that above all else. The Catholic Church's teaching is ultimately based on rationality. teaching is ultimately based on rationality. See, one of the differences that distinguishes Christianity and Judaism from other moral compasses, Islam, for example, the moral law of Islam is because Allah said it this way. Islam itself means submit. So there's nothing intrinsic about the teachings of Islam that are rooted in objective reality. Whereas the Christian direction of sexual

morality is rooted in our nature and our essence. So to talk about, you know, atheists would probably think that these are just arbitrary commandments. God just says this is the way it is. But if we can look with reason and our intellect and research the scientific difference about male and female, not merely just our sexual realm of the sexual organs, but it goes through our whole, our brains are different. You can talk about this complementarity even as science reveals that. Start there where they always want to go. Start with science and then move from that reality of science to say well the Catholic Church views this this way. Now there's parts of it

that aren't going to make sense, contraception for example, but at least we have a foundation from which to begin. Alright, that's a good answer. Let's see, Sydney Mead says, looks like Dan was just at the Two Hearts Catholic shop at my parish in Roswell. I was. I was. Is it a good Catholic bookstore? It's a great Catholic shop run by Charlotte Johnson and her husband.

Please, if you live here in Atlanta, it's the biggest Catholic shop in the southeast. Really? I haven't been there. You need to go there. And these are labors of love, these Catholic bookstores. And please go do give Charlotte some business. She's doing a service to this community and support her. I just spent $100 there.

Good man. Yeah. Support your Catholic bookstore. That way you kind of get to indulge in things like dainty scapulas and expensive rosary rings. I don't know if that's a thing. Well, I got some. But guilt-free because you're giving it to this great. And oftentimes there are tasty goodies from nuns.

I bought some cookies. I love tasty goodies. Especially when they're made by nuns. If they're made by nuns, it doesn't make you fat. No. I want someone to write a book that says everything we said about bread was wrong. You need more bread. I've been living that book.

I want to know what the diet. I said to my friend, I said, what's that diet where you eat basically paleo? Sorry. Hey. Basically paleo until the end of the day, and at which point you just drink whiskey and drink peanut butter M&Ms. What's that diet? It's the Mad Fran diet.

Yeah. I'm going to sell it and write a book. Someone says reality. That's what that is. Reality, yes. All right. Okay, so Sydney again says, Matt recently interviewed Michael Voris.

It's true. I took a peek at the website, and Church Militant recently published an article about a, quote, pro-gay push, quote, in Rome, specifically at the youth synod, that they argue will threaten church teaching on same-sex attraction. What are your thoughts? Thanks, Dan. I really enjoyed your last episode on pints with Aquinas. I'm not sure if you got a chance to see that article or not.

I haven't seen the article, but I'm aware of the controversy. One of the surprising things about the youth synod is that the phrase LGBTQ appeared for the first time in a Vatican document. And this comes down to a question of anthropology. And I do think that there is no room in church teaching for us to view the human person as LGBTQ. Archbishop Chaput, in one of his interventions at the Youth Synod, made that comment. Really? Yes. He said, you know, he had four minutes to speak, and one of them was about this topic,

and he said... Good man. Yes, he's a good man, and he said, in keeping with the church's constant teaching and the 1986 letter, that these identities are reductionist based on sexual attractions or, in the case of somebody who identifies as transgender, their feelings, and they don't have a place within the church's constant teaching that we're male and female. So I am gravely concerned about that. We need to pray about this. I am concerned that there are forces at work, and there are forces at work at the Synod that are putting pressure to bear. There was a group, I think the Equality Forum or something, that they consciously made an effort to have people write to their bishops to change the Church's teaching on this issue.

So we have to pray about that, but I'm confident that the Holy Spirit is going to guide this, and we are going to, the truth will come through, and that's Genesis 1, 26, 27, which, when we're taping this, was reiterated by Christ on the Gospel reading on Sunday from Mark. Have you not read that he created them male and female from the very beginning when he talked about divorce? It's a difficult time to be a Catholic today. It's an exciting time to be a Catholic. There you go.

It's a good way to look at it. It's absolutely exciting. We're in it. We're in the fray. Was it you who said you saw someone that said, Mary is weeping? And you said? No, Mary is sweeping. Sweeping.

Sweeping the club. Yeah. Mary is cleaning house. I mean, she wants the bride of her son to be purified. Yeah. You know? And like she is, without stain. Yeah.

And she's doing that with, she'll do it with mercy and compassion and tenderness. Amen. You know, Sidney mentioned my interview with Michael Voris. I want to tell everybody right now to subscribe to this channel. We're going to be doing more of these videos, and you'll be able to see that interview with Michael Voris. But it means a lot. Please hit subscribe.

Leave a message. Tell Dan what you think about his shirt. He just bought it today. Let me know. I need fashion advice. You look awesome. about his shirt. He just bought it today. Let me know. I need fashion advice. You look awesome. Craig Benko says, "'In your previous interview with Matt,

"'you discussed some of James Baldwin's view "'of how being gay didn't make sense to him. "'You also related to Baldwin by saying "'that being part of the LGBT community didn't seem to fit with your experience and the prevailing political nature of the movement wasn't what you were interested in and didn't fit. Since your experience didn't line up with the outward actions of the LGBT community, have you been criticized as being not really gay since your experience is admittedly different

and because it didn't line up with the larger public opinion or public expectation? Good question. It is a good question. And just to talk about the interview, James Baldwin did an interview with the Village Voice towards the end of his life, and the person asked him about his... He had more romantic and sexual relations with the interview, James Baldwin did an interview with the Village Voice towards the end of his life, and the person asked him about his, he had more romantic and sexual relations

with the men, and he said, do you consider yourself gay? And he said, you know, the word has always rubbed me the wrong way. It has never made sense of my experience. And I really resonated with that, because there is a sad sort of pressure brought to bear. Like there is a rite of passage, as it were, when you come out and you enter in this community and, you know, now you're going to, a lot of people say I've got to go to gay pride and things like that, but there are a lot of men and women who identify as gay and lesbian who don't like what goes on at gay pride parades.

Okay. You know, so it's, my experience isn't... So we've got to be careful not to lump people all into the same category. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the reasons I dated the guy that I dated is he wasn't into all this activist stuff. Our goal was just to have a quiet life

and just live our lives together. So we can't lump everybody, like you said, under this big, broad umbrella. But to the main question there, some people have said, well, you really aren't gay. Because part of the story of my life was that I found myself attracted to a woman later in life, after I had this relationship with that man. And this was one other reason why I said, no, I'm not gay. And what I mean by that is not that I don't have same-sex attraction. At this point, I am primarily attracted to men still.

My struggles with lust and temptation are towards men, not women. So this notion that, well, you're not, this experience isn't really genuine to you because you actually had a relationship with a woman. Talk about offensive. Well, it's just patronizing and condescending.

But to his core point, I said, yeah, you're right. I never have been gay and neitherescending. Patronizing, yeah. But to his core point, I said, yeah, you're right. I never have been gay, and neither have you. Oh, boy. You know. Mic drop. You know. So I just think people want to discredit people like me because we don't fit the narrative,

but it's just dishonest. Thank you. Charles Smith says, was there ever a time during your faith journey when you became resentful towards God? I know what you're going to say. Because you have same-sex attraction, yet you know it would be sinful to act upon it. Yes. And if you want to see my reaction, recalling the reaction, you can see my documentary that I'm in, Desire of the Everlasting Hills.

It's a beautiful film. It kind of got me started on Desire of the Everlasting Hills. It's a beautiful film. It kind of got me started on this journey of publicly speaking about this. Put out by the Courage Apostolate, it's called Desire of the Everlasting Hills, which is a name that was given for Christ by Jacob. No, it was Jacob in Scripture. It's in the Litany of the Sacred Heart. But it comes from Jacob. It was a name that Jacob, when he blessed his sons at the end of his life, he talked about the desire of the everlasting hills, and it pointed to Jesus.

So the movie, you can find it at everlastinghills.org. You can watch it there. You can watch it there. Watch it there. Watch it there. And it tells a story of two other people and myself and our journey. And in it, I talk about how I would drive by this basilica in town with anger at God and then flip it off in anger. So, yes, I did get angry.

God can deal with anger. He can deal with passionate people. It turns out he's omnipotent. Yes, he can. And he's not afraid of passionate people. Turns out he's omnipotent. Yes, he can. And he's not afraid of passionate people. He's not afraid to have people that wrestle with him.

Jacob. Jacob, exactly. And so, if you're angry at God out there, be honest about it. Go to adoration and say, I'm angry with you, God. I don't understand. Pour your heart out. He can take it. Brian Batko says, God. I don't understand. Pour your heart out. He can take it. Brian Batko says,

How should I engage someone on why same-sex relationships are wrong? Is it a good argument to point out that the Bible says sex between two unmarried people is fornication, therefore a sin, and that the Bible defines marriage as one man and one woman. This is a difficult discussion, and I don't want to come off as judgmental or holier than thou when speaking to this. Thanks, Brian. Yeah, so every time I have this question, I always want to ask, who are you having this conversation with? The first question is, it's not smart to have this conversation with everybody. You know, who is it that you want to have this conversation

with about the sexual immorality of same-sex relationships? Is it your neighbor who's living with his same-sex partner? Probably not the people to talk about that with right away. Probably not the people to talk about that with right away. We have to, there's some way that when we're talking about homosexuality, we distill it down too much to the question of what are you doing in the bedroom, right? Rather than having this holistic approach, what I love about the catechism is it starts with God's plan for creation, begins with his love for us. The first paragraph of the Catechism starts with God infinitely imperfecting and blessing himself out of a plan of sheer goodness, created man to fully enjoy him in this life and the next.

That's the gospel message. And then you have the sacramental life, and then you have the moral life. So if we talk about sexual morality outside of God's creative plan for us, and that he desires us, and he's a loving father, we're not going to get anywhere. But when we get to the point, if you've arrived at this point with somebody you're journeying with, do you believe God loves you and wants you happy in this life and the next? Then you can talk about why God's plan for human sexuality makes sense. But focus primarily on chastity as

he does in here as a requirement for all of us. And people want to talk about they focus on the catechism's discussion of same-sex sexual behavior as being intrinsically disordered. That's not the only thing that it says that's intrinsically disordered.

Masturbation is intrinsically disordered. Nobody really talks about that. Contraception is intrinsically disordered. And so is bestiality. Pornography. Pornography. Right. Well, adultery in a different sense.

Well, adultery is... It's ordered correctly. It can be reordered. Because the intrinsically disordered, it's using, adultery is using sex in accordance with the form of how God intended it. Right. But the, I'm confusing the terms here,

but in an adulterous relationship, it's illicit. Yeah. But the form. It's not saying that the sexual act is intrinsically evil. It's the circumstances surrounding the act. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then talk about why this is good news. Yeah. I mean, not just talk about this. You know who does a great job about that is Jason Everett. Yes. And Christopher West. Yeah, boy. Who I'm going to have on the show in December.

Fantastic. Yeah. He's a good man. Yeah. And Christopher West. Yeah, boy. Who I'm going to have on the show in December. Fantastic. Yeah. He's a good man. Yeah. Glory to God. Glory to God. All right. Sean Champagne.

That's a good name. Probably not his real name. Maybe it is. I don't know. That's an awesome name, though, eh? Yeah. It says, experiencing same-sex attraction is a unique trial and hardship for those who desire to be faithful to the church. What is the best way to practice solidarity with people undergoing this hardship

while remaining firm in the church's teaching on love and sexuality? Well, one of the biggest things that I notice with my friends who live with same-sex attraction is their biggest fear is loneliness, you know. Am I going to be forgotten, you know? And that's the temptation to despair. We have to cling to hope. But I also hope your listeners out there, if you have a friend who's confided in you that they have same-sex attraction or you suspect it, invite them into your life, into your circle. So often, young Catholics will get married and they sort of cordon themselves off with other married couples, hanging out with the kids,

and like, oh, you'll get together and we'll have play dates or whatever. In the meantime, your single friends of all persuasions feel outside of that loop. So reach out to all single people. Some of them might be same-sex attracted. But invite them into their social circle. I have some really good friends who are my age and we're all single. I'm the only one who lives in same-sex attraction. But we sometimes feel forgotten by our married friends.

And we don't want to be an imposition. We don't want to call them up. But we would like to integrate ourselves into that relationship. At the same time, we start to reach out to them and realize, well, we can provide some adult company to them. That's right. It's a win-win. Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny. I'm so glad you said that. I think it's so important that we do that. One of the things that my wife and I have done and plan to do again is family dinner nights where we just invite anybody and everyone to come over for dinner. Yeah. So it's every Tuesday. It's like 4 p.m. to 8, 4 to 10, say, 4 p.m. to 10 p.m.

You can come around, bring something to share. Yeah. Watermelon, whiskey, casserole, doesn't matter. Just come over. Don't ask me if it's on. I just said it's every Tuesday. If I'm not home, you run it. Here's the keys, right?

That's what we're doing. And I think that's just a beautiful way to get together, just to do friendship. Friendship is so revolutionary. And one of the marks of Christianity historically is hospitality, right? one of the marks of Christianity historically is hospitality, right? And so inviting people into your home, that's how you're going to be in relationship with them, and they're not going to feel isolated.

So that's a weighted journey with people. Because I'll tell you, when you feel alone and lonely, that's when temptation comes. Amen. You know? Susan Seidler asks, How do you... Thank you, Susan. Thank you, Susan you thank you susan thank you susan thank you susan for being a patron how people think that i'm people probably think that i've been drinking too much it's not that i've just been sitting in this chair for three hours and at some point it's like when

you fly on an airplane especially from australia before i don't know why i'm just going to go into this you kind of think to yourself, that's okay. I've got movies to watch. I've got an audio book. I've got an actual book. We've got this. Three hours in, you want to kill somebody. You're in a tin can.

Doesn't matter how many movies you've got. That's kind of where we're at. Susan Silas says, How do you and your fellow Courage members feel about the recent suggestion slash revelation that there are priests involved in homosexual behavior? God bless you and your fellow Courage members for striving to live a chaste life. None of us are surprised. I mean, human nature is evident in every part of our lives.

I mean, if you think about the history of the Catholic Church, there were popes who had mistresses and prostitutes living at the Vatican. Just because you make a vow of celibacy doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to keep it. It's disappointing to me and sad to hear those stories of priests. My first reaction is I want to see them find the mercy of God, right? But they also need to be held accountable for the things that they've done because they've abused this privileged role that Christ established. And, you know, what did Christ say?

Better that a millstone be around your neck than you cause one of these to stumble. And for a priest, all of us are children to him because he's supposed to be a spiritual father. So for people who've been abused, I would like to really recommend Dawn Eden's book. I think it's her book on healing of sexual abuse. I can't remember the name of that. Boom. The name of God's Healing Mercy. Dawn Eden.

God's Healing Mercy. Yeah, if you look up books or something. My Peace I Give You. Yes, healing sexual wounds through the grace of the church, I think. There you go. But she was sexually abused as a child, and she has My Peace I Give You. Yeah, it's a beautiful book. Healing sexual wounds with the help of the saints.

Can't argue with that. Can't argue with that. She's fantastic. So those who have suffered abuse can find healing in the church, but we do have to hold priests accountable. And I think we're finally reaching a point where the laity are demanding this and you're not going to be able to come back into the priesthood. You violated that.

Final question comes from my great friend Kelly Klatt, who is one of the coolest people you'll ever have the pleasure of meeting up there in Minnesota. She says, I really want to hear him play his instrument. I believe he plays the trombone. That would be awesome. That's a good question to end on. Why trombone? Why not flute or triangle? Do kids get into the triangle? Well, you know what it was for me? I was in the fifth grade, and they had people from the high school band come in there, and the guy with the trombone slid it, moved the slide, and made this...

I said, that's me. That's it. And I took to it. I love it. But yeah, you can actually hear me play trombone online. Really? I'm in a brass quintet, and you can hear it online on YouTube if you Google Western Brass Quintet. We don't have audio, do we, Pritchett?

No, we don't. No, that's what you would Google. A Western Brass Quintet, and you can hear me play. Let's just have a look at it. Yeah, Western Brass Quintet. Matt Fred, interview Stan Mattson, live now. well let's just have a look at it yeah western brass quartets live now there it is what if we watch that what would happen oh my gosh let's see it's like inception what would happen oh which is the real us

oh oh i guess there's a delay, clearly. Oh, look at that jamming. Yeah. Cheers. This is like Inception. Yeah, it is. All right, so Dan Mattson. No, you just got to Google Western Brass Quintet. Western Brass Quintet.

Brass Quintet. There it is right there. And look at that. Which one? This one? This album right here. Let's do Top Tracks. This one, this one, this one, this one. Top Tracks. And we're going to find Monteverdi. I think I clicked the wrong thing there. Sweet Impromptu right here. Let's do Top Tracks. This one? This one, this one, this one. Top Tracks.

And we're going to find Moda Verde. I think I clicked the wrong thing there. Sweet Impromptu right here. Oh, is that it? Yeah, you clicked it. That one?

Sweet Impromptu right there. This one? Yeah, that's it. Do it right there. Oh, I didn't buy the bloody YouTube thing. Oh, you've got three seconds.

We got it. Knock it out. And then you've got to jack up the volume. Oh, I've got to watch another one. This is his first episode. He's ironing things out.

Seinfeld. We'll get it. Skip that. Oh, goodness. Now, you've got to turn up the volume, though. All right. I can't turn up the volume. Where's it coming out of?

Over here. That's my group. You'll hear me in a little bit. All right. Isn't that so charming? Don't you feel like you're at a cafe? I can hear it. Just don't talk to him. That's beautiful.

He's a cup of coffee. Dan. It's my group. That's glorious. It is glorious. You know what? That sounds like a full day feels. That's glorious. It is glorious. You know what? That sounds like a full day feels.

That sounds... I would like you to put that on your next CD. That sounds like a full day feels. Hashtag Matt Fradd comma the porn guy. Dude, that's really beautiful. Yeah, it's, you know... That's beautiful. Well, it's a beautiful piece. So look up that and then then what else do we want?

And there's a whole. And you can get it on iTunes and stuff, right? Yeah, yeah. All right, here is the other thing people need to look up. Everlastingheals.org. Well, that one. But also, why I don't call myself. Look at that.

Look at that. Look at that. I bet you've had some bad reviews. Oh, you want, let's, let's, let's. Let's look at the worst reviews. Let's look at the worst reviews. This is fun. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, let's see. All right. This one is great. This one? Should I read this one? I need my glasses. Blind as a bloody bat. I think you need to read this one.

This is the best one. If you are. All right. Maybe, maybe good for a few sad. If you are a self-loathing homosexual because either one, you have bought into the lies others have told you about yourself and your nature, and or two, because you ran amok for years having sex with everything. Apparently that's me.

And anything and found it vapid and unfulfilling then this book may be for you even if it's going to ask you to consider to pervert your true nature if you are a homosexual who is not burdened by what bigots think of you and believe that god placed you on this earth to love and to be loved and you generally operate from a sense of decency, then this book isn't for you. By the way, the cover picture is deceiving in itself. Underneath that red and white label, you'd think you would find a picture of the author.

A current 20 to 30-something, not so, exclamation mark. You'd find a middle-aged, portly man. Well, and the funny thing is... Do a Google image search. No need. There's a picture of me in the book.

Come on. It's not like you're trying to... This is just... It's just insulting. But there's a lot of great reviews and I... I think it was pretty well-written, what he said.

I think it was a well-written critique. It he said. I think it was a well written critique. It was a well written. You've got to give him that. Maybe he should contact Ignatius. That's right. And he could write a book called Why I Call Myself. Now, I'm very excited. This is actually now in Italian.

We've got to tell people this. This is crazy. Yeah, there was no plan of this. But in Italy, I was there this summer, and my book was released there, and it just so happened that it was the same day that Father Martin's book was released. So funny. And not only was it released the same day that Father Martin's book was released, which was not, it was a coincidence.

It was a coincidence, absolutely. It was also the English version. The English version, it ended up being released the same week. The same week. And mine was supposed to be released in April, and I had writer's block, and I was going crazy having written my, yeah, that's a gift to have Cardinal Roberts here and there, in the introduction. But I was going crazy, and I had to just stop because I was at my wit's end.

And then we pushed it back to June, and it ended up being the same week that Father Martin's book was released, which is interesting. Now, it's also been released in a Dutch translation. I'm jealous because my book on porn has been released in no other languages. Wow. I would like you to work on this. I'll see what I can do. Do you have an audio book? I have an audio book. Well, I would like you to work on this. I'll see what I can do. Do you have an audio book? I have an audio book.

Well, you got me beat. Yeah. You know what happened though? It's so funny. They contacted me and they said, we'd like to make

an audio book out of the porn myth. It's a great book. It is a great book. Off and Bot, go down here. Where is it? Off and Bot together.

Oh no. It used to be. Father Mike Schmitz. You got bumped by Father Mike Schmitz. Let's see here. Matt, Brad. Boom. Sorry, I just yelled in the mic, no. It used to be. Father Mike Schmitz. You got bumped by Father Mike Schmitz. Let's see here. Matt, Brad. Boom!

Sorry, I just yelled in the mic, Richard. Let's see. Maybe it's often, let's see what's down there. Often bought with. Now, porn book, porn book. For a while, our books were companion books, and we thought that they would be interesting Christmas gifts. So what's funny is this audio book company reached out to me,

and they said, we would like to work with your publisher to funny is this audio book company reached out to me and they said, we would like to work with your publisher to make it an audio book. And I thought, that's awesome. Yeah, I'd like to do that. And I said, you've got an Australian accent. It seems like it would be perfect. Do you know where this is going? Where is it going? That's hilarious. You don't know. So I wrote to him and I said, you know, like, I know that listeners usually like listening to the voice of the author. Would you like me to read it? I'd love to read it said, you know, like, I know that listeners usually like listening to the voice of the author. Would you like me to read it? I'd love to read it. And they said, well, send us a sample.

I sent them a sample. They didn't want it. They didn't want it. I didn't read it. You got rejected. They emailed me back and went, we're going to go with some English dude. They didn't say that. So it's an English dude reading to you.

Well, I... But our books came out at the same time and we compete for like which would be the most awkward book to read on a train the one that says gay or porn but i really do hope that everybody goes and gets a copy of this sincerely because it's very well written you've obviously put a lot of effort into it cardinal sarah endorsed it that's incredible well and i'll tell you, the introduction by Father Paul Cech, who used to be the head of Courage. Yeah, beautiful man, holy man. Holy man.

He's the brother of Christopher Cech. Yeah, my old boss. And that introduction, I wish that could be published by itself because it perfectly sums up this state of where we are with sexual confusion he says in the in his introduction he says perhaps one of the most controversial verses in scripture is genesis 1 26 and 27 that we are male and female created and he really analyzes that but the book is is um i tell my own story but i it's a real burden of mine to help free people from these labels. Well, the labels, sure. Yeah.

And I talk. It's interesting. People read the book to find out about somebody's experience, but it seems to apply to them. The people that, it seems the chapter that resonates with people the most, I have a chapter in there I call The Gift of Loneliness. And it's a universal human experience, even in marriage. So anyway, thanks for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I want to do before we go?

There's someone watching this video late at night, and they have same-sex attraction, and maybe no one else knows about it, and they feel really burdened by it, and they don't know what to do because it kind of sucks that nobody knows and they feel very lonely and and maybe they do just want to like come out and embrace this and what what let's do this I'm throwing this what yeah no speak to that young man or young I want to speak to you like I wish

somebody had spoken to me you are not alone and you have not been forgotten by God. God does have plans for you that include your happiness, even though right now it feels like you're forgotten by him. What he wants you to do is to run to him. And especially if you have some shame about things you've done with another person or with yourself or pornography, that shame does not come from God. Christ sees you and delights in you, and God the Father, when he looks at you, he sees his own son. And he longs to heal any wounds that you have, any scars that you have,

and he longs to tell you what he sent his son. The deepest longing in my human heart was to know that it was good that I exist in the way I exist, and it's good that you exist the way you exist, and God thought you up, and you are more precious to him than all the stars in the universe, all the beauties of the earth, you are his delight and his joy. And he just wants you to run to him. And in this confusion that you might be going through, which I went through, and this loneliness and fear and despair, he wants to say to you, enter into my rest. I came that you might have joy.

And the joy is the joy he has with the Father. And he came that our joy might be complete and full, and that's what he offers us. In the empty promises the world will not lead to happiness. What you need to do is embrace who you truly are, a beloved son of God, made in his image and made in his likeness, unique and unrepeatable, never to be repeated again. You are a thought of God, and he brought you here so that he can tell you how much he loves you, and so you can learn to say the same thing to him. And you are not alone. And I urge you to reach out to me Bestway is on Twitter

at Daniel C. Mattson and talk to me there and I will help you along this journey because I know I've been put on the earth to help people like me find freedom and the love that is there from God the Father

Glory to God, I'm glad you exist, Dan. I'm glad you exist. I mean that, dude. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad bourbon exists, too. There is joy to be had. There is joy. There is joy.

Thank you to everybody who has been watching this live. I've got tears in my eyes listening to that. Thank you. Thank you to everybody who has been listening to the Matt Fradd Show for watching. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel. Please subscribe to our podcast, Pints with Aquinas. And a huge thank you to everybody who believes in the work that we are doing and wants to support us on Patreon.

Go to patreon.com slash mattfradd. You can give me a dollar a month or more, and you get a bunch of free stuff in return. Big thank you. All right. God bless. That's it. Cheers.

We did it. That was awesome. We did it. How long was that? That's like three hours.. All right. God bless. That's it. Cheers. We did it. That was awesome. We did it. How long was that? That's like three hours. No, let's do that.