Pints With Aquinas - Dating, Marriage, and Sex Advice (Valentine's Day Special) w/ Cameron Fradd

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

Matt and Cameron take questions from locals supporters on dating, marriage and sex. Thrsdy gets very uncomfy.  @cfradd  on YouTube Cameron's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/AmongTheLilies

So Thomas Aquinas wrote daily meditations for Lent. And so what I'm gonna do over on matfrad.locals.com is read those meditations and release them every day throughout Lent. So if you've been thinking, what's a cool way I could prepare for Easter, this would be it. Go over and support us at matfrad.locals.com

and you'll get a bunch of free things in return. One of those free things will be daily meditations for Lent. MattFrad.locals.com. Thanks. For the boxing thing? All right, I'm over that now. We're done. All right, we're live. And we're live with Cameron Frad talking about dating and marriage. Woohoo! I love marriage. And dating. Just you, though. No one else.

I am disappointed, though, that you didn't start with marriage is what. Marriage. We're gonna be talking, we're gonna be taking questions from our local supporters. Also, Thursday our producer is single, so anyone who wants a date, please put your email address in the comments section below.

And female, only females need apply. So we'll get some questions soon from Thursday. Maybe we'll swap seats. We'll see what happens, but how are you doing? Good. This is wild because we just got back from Seek. We've got a week and then we go to Guatemala and I'm recording a hundred episodes to get ready.

And we have a radiator leaking in our house. So I keep changing towels every five minutes. Did you see how I changed the towel this morning? No, I didn't think you did because it was so wet. I was like, oh, I wish you had changed the towel. So let's just, we'll just, this is not a talk for people who watch it on YouTube. This is us just trying to get our heads straight

before we go to Guatemala. I took those towels down stairs and put them in the dryer. Oh, thank you. I don't know if that was the best idea, but. I'm gonna get some of this. Oh my gosh, leak in the ceiling. Yeah. Things are wild.

Crazy. Wild and wooly. We had wild stuff. That's what- I still can't do Johnny Carson. Is that what that was? Sorry, I just was like, uh-huh, okay. Yeah, wild and wooly should be the name of Father Pine's episode.

He says that a lot, but it's been wild and wooly. And you didn't sleep last night. Correct, yeah. I slept some of the night, but not most of it. So, but that's okay. When'd you wake up? It was the first time I'm seeing my wife today, everybody. So.

So like 2 a.m. Or no,, like, like you went back to bed. I went back to bed part around six and then I got up at like an hour ago, just in pain or combination of stuff. Yeah. Pain, heartburn, that little like noise thing I make where I'm like, if I keep laying down, I'm going to be sick. So I might as well sit up. So that's okay. Well on that note, let's take some questions From our local supporters. There's a lot of questions here now So many questions that we have to answer them somewhat briefly. Okay got it

If we want to get through any number of them. All right Okay, Suzuki says what are the best ways to approach a Catholic romantic relationship coming from someone who has never been in a romantic relationship before? What they're asking is, because there's a follow up, what separates a romantic relationship from a really close friend that is of the opposite sex? You want me to answer? Yeah, you're the guest. I'm sorry.

I'm used to just us having conversations. I'm like, do you want to take this one or me? Oh, I see. I'm the guest. Yes. I'm like, do you want to take this one or me? Oh, I see, I'm the guest. Yes, so I love this quote that Matt and I got. I got from a quote book from you back on net back in 2004. Right? Is that right? Four-ish.

And it was a quote by C.S. Lewis and it says, love is friendship caught on fire. I love that. I love that we just were best friends in the beginning. And our big hurdle is, do we like each other as more or not? I'm not sure. Do we just like the idea of liking each other because we're so close friends and that would be super cool if we did. Obviously, we found each other attractive. Matt was very cute even back then. And I think you probably thought even back

then I liked that. That means I've gotten better. Now that you've shaved your face, you have. I told John Henry, I sent that photo of me with a beard. And then I sent a camera and I as a newly dating married couple. And he's like, Cameron, Cameron's more beautiful today. And you looked like you were 13 until a week ago. You did look really young for a really long time. I feel like we both did. So I like that the biggest hurdle for us was just discerning, okay, do we love each other as just brothers and

sisters in Christ, or do we feel called for marriage? That was a big hurdle jump that we figured out, praise God. But I don't know, I think that, I think not being afraid of just being friends with people as well. And is this a girl asking or a guy? It's a girl. It's a girl. Okay, yeah. I believe so. So I think especially if you're the girl, like, don't worry about it.

Give it to God. Like, don't stress over it. Don't worry about asking all his friends if he likes you. If you start liking someone, just surrender it to the Lord and he will let and pray for if you do have a crush on someone or even if you don't just pray for the them to have the courage to ask you out. Can we document here on video so our kids can watch one day when we're really old how we first kissed and like how we first showed each other that we like it won't be gross. But here's what happened.

We served as missionaries with net ministries in Ireland at the end of that three month mission trip Almost everyone flew back to the United States or Canada and you and I were at the airport that day And I think we were going back the next day. I was going to Rome Okay, and you were going to Australia. So that's why we were the ones not going back to North America So then we got into a bus, did we? And then we went to that Australian pub in Dublin. Yeah, Cooper's Pale Ale. You want to take me to get a Cooper's Pale Ale?

It's amazing, because if you drank that now, you would throw up in five minutes. Instantly, yeah. Back then, I could. Yeah, we were drinking beer, playing pool, and we both liked each other, but neither of us had expressed that. If anything, I thought you expressed it, and I thought you were trying to let me know that

you didn't like me like that. That was a funny story. Yeah. I mean, not funny, but you should, because. Okay. Well. We're in a coffee shop, remember? We're in a coffee shop and Matt starts sharing with me.

This is that wrap up week. So we're done with our missionary work, but we're still, you're not allowed to date on net. So that's part of it, right? But you're talking about, there's this girl that I think may like me and you're like giving all these things. I'm like, maybe she doesn't like you. She thought I was talking about her. I really, really was talking about someone from Australia. Yeah. And, um,

so it was funny the whole time. I'm like, maybe she doesn't like you. But then I also remember when you were visiting the CFRs in London, I was angry the whole time you were gone. That's such a choleric response. I'm like, ugh, stupid CFRs, hate them, which I don't. I love them. But in the moment, and I don't even think I knew that I liked you like that, but I would just, I was angry that you were off with them and not with us.

And then I remember that- Isn't that cool? And that's kind of before you realized you liked me. It was before I realized I liked you, yeah. And then the night before, wrap up. Just a weird response to have to a friend going to discern the priesthood. To find that you're angry. Did any of your friends be like, wait, are you angry?

Like, do you have a crush on Matt? And you were like, no. Yes. You know what's funny? I talked to my supervisor about, cause they say that you should spend more time, the sister you spend the least amount of time with should be more time than the brother you spend the most amount of time with.

This is on this team of missionaries. Yeah. And I said that I spend way more time with you than I do a lot of the other people on the team, but it's Nett's fault because they put us on all these same things together. And I remember talking to Patty about it. She's like, do you like him? I'm like, no, not like that. I just love him as my brother. And then the night before we were about to go back, or no, it was the very last night of wrap up. So maybe a couple nights before we were about to go back, I said to Sheila, I was like,

the thought of not ever seeing Matt again totally breaks my heart. Then she just smiled and looked at me. And I still don't think then I was aware. Like I think there's a massive separation between my heart and my brain. And like, I think my heart was very much aware that I liked you, but my brain's like, no, obviously I don't like them. And then once

everyone left, I feel like that's when I also knew like, like you don't do this on net. So I think that's had finished. And so I think people who are watching when you're on net ministries, you don't date, even though you're on a team together, you may wish you don't because when you take your eyes off of the mission and onto a sister, it gets weird for everybody on the team, including yourself. So we were good at not expressing our affection to each other, I think. Although there were times that you and I were sitting on a couch watching a movie with the rest of the team and I did want to go up to go to the bathroom even though my tonsils

were floating because I was afraid that somebody would sit where I was sitting and our knees couldn't touch each other. Continue. So I think both of us maybe had some ideas, but we were both so respectful of the mission and love what we were doing. Didn't want to mess with that. And you also were discerning priesthood. And so yeah, that last night, I think that's when I let my heart or James, my glossic, my, my last one on one with him, what he said to me, I was dating someone before and he's like, hey,

I want you not to get together. When you go back to Texas, don't get together with what's his face. And I told him his name. He's like, I know his name. I'm saying don't get back together with what's his face. He's like, he's not worth having a name. He's like, look around here. It's not worth having a name. I'm sure he did not say that. There's no way that attitude. He's not worth having a name. I'm sure he did not say that. There's no way. That was the attitude he was presenting. It's not worth having a name. No, he's like, you, he's like, I don't like who you are with him.

And not that I wasn't who I was, but he's like, look at Matt, look at Todd, look at Mike, look at these guys, look at your brothers. You've got to get, you got to marry a guy like these. Like you have such great, great guys. Like don't date anyone else. I'm like, cool. Thanks, James. Good chat. And he ended up being a groomsman at our wedding.

And so I think it was that me telling Sheila, I think that's when I finally gave my heart permission. So I was just like feeling stuff, right? And she was just asking how I was doing. It was like the thought of not seeing Matt ever again breaks my heart. I don't know how much we want to share about this night because there were some embarrassing moments.

Yeah, I don't want to go into too much of it, but I This is making Thursday feel incredibly uncomfortable somebody lock the door Let's just say you guys are telling a story to the internet But the person you're looking at for reaction to the story as the standard for the internet is me But I'm also trying to work. So I just have like seven things that are happening. It's like I had a friend in high school who would want to show me a new song he learned on guitar, but as he would play it, he would watch me the whole time.

And I felt very uncomfortable. And that's probably how you feel. Is your mic even, is your mic on? I hope it is. There was people out hearing this back and forth between us. Oh my gosh. Okay. So we won't get into it. Let's just say we made out in a pub.

We didn't. Yeah, we did. And it was called the bleeding horse pub. And it was about half hour after you got your nose pierced for the first time. Okay. So I think that's what you need to, that's what you need to focus on. And we didn't make out. I'm just, I'm making it known.

No, it was the most awkward kiss of my life. Okay. We don't have to say that. Sorry. No, it's okay. Love you. Most awkward kiss of my life with someone that I love, deeply.

Still, I would rather you resent me and say it was the greatest kiss of your life. You, you, I've had the greatest kiss of my life from you as well, all the time. Like there's so many more of those. This is one of the few awkward ones. And I, so I think combination of- Why did I ask why?

Also, why did you add the, I'm sorry, the most awkward kiss of my life from someone I love deeply. That's an odd modifier to put on there because it assumes that there's one that... Pfft. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. It assumes that there's one.

You think you get the best kiss of your life? Some guy that I was on pulse by. Ugh. All right, all right, let's get back to why that was an awkward kiss. What happened? I think I still like, so I feel like I was just letting myself realize

that I liked you and like we went to a pub, had a beer, we're walking, like our hands like almost. We had like three beers at this point. No, we went to a couple of different pubs. Our hands grazed. We were sitting at that Irish pub and our feet touched. He had touched my foot now. Well, I feel great at the time. It feels alright now, but back then.

Back then. It's alright. It's for us. It's for us. It's not for you people. And then, yeah, alright. So then you get your nose pierced. I got my nose pierced.

For the first, yeah. And you, I remember you get your nose pierced. I got my nose pierced. For the first, yeah. And you, I remember you and I were very different because I was very quite rigorous with sin and not lying. And you were like, are you flying in the next week? You're like, no. She was flying the next day. I'm like, I don't know how you can live with yourself. But.

Because I wasn't flying next week. I was flying tomorrow. But then I didn't know that this is how they pierced your nose. There was that long sharp thing and they pushed it through. There's like a rod they put in and then the big old needle. Crazy. Yeah. Anyway, so awkward kiss. But no, you said it was the single tear that came down my cheek that stole your heart.

There's a lot of tears. I don't know if it was just that. Maybe that was part of it. But I think that was, and it also was like a, I was squeezing your hand for it. So it was't know if it was just that. Maybe that was part of it. But I think that was and it also was like a I was squeezing your hand for it. So it's like an excuse to hold hands. Matt just randomly said, I wanted to punch that woman. And no one but you two have a clue what she had in mind.

So everyone else just heard, I want to punch that woman. The piercing woman. The piercing woman. She was hurting you. Anyway. All right. Awkward kiss, why was it awkward? Oh, this is, I don't know how much I want you to share. Share it all. Let's do it. So no, I think why it was awkward

is because I knew that I loved you as my brother in Christ and I didn't know if I liked you like that. So I don't have a real life brother, but you were up there. Like you were one of those closest things to a real life brother I had and I loved you as a brother in Christ. And then you kissed me, which was weird.

And so, and I said you could. So So it was there's just a lot going on. Very clear. She said that I could. To be fair, I did ask you. You did. I shouldn't have done that. You know, you did. I probably in trouble for this. You don't ask. I know. I feel. But see, we were also moving. But we were also three months as missionaries where we couldn't express any kind of affection to each other I was fine with you asking it was it was a it was a cute flirty type of ask it was like Don't say no don't need to kind of mimic me. It was like oh, oh, hey, Cameron That's not what I was gonna do I was gonna say it was really beautiful and it was was like, I would love to kiss you right now

or something. And then I said, I would be okay with that. It wasn't like, excuse me. Anyway. Now let's both look at Thursday and explain what happened next. Put on some music. Oh yeah.

What was interesting, so no, what was cool about it was this bleeding horse pub is where, some famous poet used to always go and write all. Sure. Anyhow. St. Patrick, I think. That's not who it was. Nope. But anyhow.

Any choice? Anyway. We were on like this bar seat overlooking the whole bar. We were in this little booth and we could see, but it was like no one was there except for the two of us. We were in our own little zone world. It was awesome. It was lovely and amazing.

Anyway, so much more to say. Like when we went to Australia, I flew you out and then I tried to kiss you and you didn't kiss me back. We could talk about that, but why bring that up? Well, you brought it up. So would you like me to explain why that happened? Okay. So Matt and I are kind of big personalities.

I don't know if you've noticed, and very intense, both of us. And I think one conversation, like what was hard is we were always jet lagged too. And we didn't have FaceTime back in the day when we were dating, it was just regular talking on the phone. That cost $18 for five minutes. Right?

But it would always be the middle of the night for one of us. And our conversations, some were amazing and wonderful, And we're like, wow, we're totally going to get married. And this is amazing. And then others were like, fine, I want to be a priest. And you just kind of went in that direction. Or I wasn't sure. And so we had two weeks, I flew to Australia and I'm like, okay, within these two weeks, we will figure out what we are either.

We will leave and we will just be friends. And this kind of flirty relationships over, we're just brother, sister in Christ, or we're getting married. That's it. No, you were right. So I went in and you had a beautiful first day picnic. Yeah, yeah, that was great. It was a great first day.

It was amazing. We prayed the rosary, walking around, watched the sunrise, Vegemite and toast. Matt packed an amazing picnic lunch and we went on a boat ride around Brisbane, had a picnic lunch with champagne and everything was just amazing and great. And dinner, like it was wonderful. But then you did go to kiss me and I said no because I loved you. That's why I said no. I said no. I was like, screw you. I want to be a priest anyway. I don't even give a shit. But I told you why. It wasn't because I didn't want to kiss you.

That's how I felt. No, I think you did maybe even. No, I didn't say that. I felt it. Yeah. You gave off that vibe. You definitely were like a. And then we won't talk about the first time we kissed in Australia, because that will really make.

Yeah, that was too embarrassed. Too intense. All right, let's go to questions. This is the thing that happens. Hello, parenting question here. If it's not too personal. Here we go. Come on. How do you discipline your kids?

What are your thoughts on spanking? I... Sorry. So see, this is what I thought we do. I guess this is a question for both of us. Yeah, you go first. I think how I've disciplined the kids has certainly changed. I think I was far too intense as a young dad

and had this fear that if I wasn't really on top of our kids that they would somehow become horrible human beings. And I often disciplined out of anger and anxiety and fear, which is I think what caused the anxiety and the anger. Whereas it's funny, I think a lot of we were just talking about this with Matt Bruninger. I think a lot of people have this experience where kids will say, you parented our youngest kid way differently to the oldest kid. And that is often meant to imply you've gotten lazy, but I think it also means you've gotten

wiser and you've learned not to die on every hill and how to. So one piece of advice I would give that I'm learning is to really try to understand where my child is emotionally and to act accordingly. So if they're not in a place to hear me correct them or to call them to apologize to a sibling or to clean something up they just broke, like if to call them to do that thing would actually send them over the edge emotionally, don't do that because all you're doing is making them fail and then you're kind of committed to then doing something else. So what about you? Yeah, I'm a huge fan of natural consequences and talking things out with them. Like I'm

a big fan of like there's choices we make and there are consequences. But I'm not a big fan of spanking. If you spank in your household, that's fine. I have, it's more easy for it to go wrong than to go right. I've seen it gone, gone wrong so many times and I have kept the wooden spoon company and business. There wouldn't be wooden spoons without me because I broke so many of them. When you were a kid, you need to make that very clear. I've never hit my children with a wooden spoon, but I was of the generation. That's what our parents did. And it was always, I was disciplined out of anger so much of the time.

I was like vowed to myself I wouldn't do that. I'm sure I definitely have done it. I definitely, but I don't discipline my children in a physical way. I will physically remove someone if they're throwing a fit and just bring them away. But I am more, I don't know, I try to be, I try to talk to them where they're at and talk them through things.

And I think that one thing that we've done very good, even from the time they were little, is asking forgiveness when they mess up. Like recognizing like you have made a mistake, you need to apologize, you need to ask for forgiveness. I'm definitely more of a, yeah, error on the side of using words and, but modeling, like modeling. And that's where I have a hard time with spanking.

It's like you're going to hit someone and tell them how dare you hit your brother. Boom, don't hit anyone ever again. Yeah. I, I'm not as convinced by that argument. Thomas Aquinas actually makes a case for why you can hit kids in the suma. And he says because they're like brute beasts who don't have reason and you don't reason with a cow and you can't actually reason with a two year old. So there's got to be some way of communicating this was wrong or we don't do this.

But I agree with you, I think the older I've gotten, the more I regret the times that I spanked a child and I don't do that anymore and wouldn't want to do that. But I would I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement that that shouldn't happen. And I also don't know if I agree with the argument that to say, how do you hit your child? I'm going to spank you. This is a very clear. There's a very big difference here, I think. Or there could be. I mean, you could be hitting an anger. You're right. That's fair.

But in my experience, and I think it's also knowing yourself. Like if you are someone like I go from being totally fine. OK, to crazy angry. You really don't, though. Do I not? I really think I do. You do get angry, but it's very rare. Okay. Yeah. I think I think usually when you're not eating or you haven't eaten in a while. Yeah, that's fair. You'll get angry. I'm like, whoa, mom's super upset. Nobody tell her to cheers because she'll bite your head off. But that really, you don't, you don't do that. And I,

I'm less like that than I was. Yeah. And I think a lot of times kids, like I think we both kind of were that problem child. And so I just, I love, like I love toddlers. I love that age. And I, even when they're doing something they shouldn't be doing, like I just want to hug them in it. You know, it's like, I think sometimes people think, especially like a two, three, four year old, you're like, they did that to make me angry.

Now I have to punish them. And I'm like, no, no, no, they did it cause they're tired or they did it cause they're hungry. And most of the time they just need to cuddle and you need to redirect, you know, and you need to let them know like, oh, that's not how we treat our friends. This is not, I don't know.

So I do think you need to discipline children. We're always constantly disciplining children, but I think there's a different mentality between discipline and punishment. Yeah. No, and I like what you just said there too about it can go wrong so quickly. And you can say to yourself, I'm not going to discipline in anger. But and anyone who's not a parent may think that they'll never feel that way.

But man, when you haven't slept and the house is a mess and you got kids pushing your buttons, even if they're not meaning to, you can turn into a crazy person and that's not a good time to start hitting people. Yeah. Yeah. Christopher says, I was wondering how you would suggest navigating a dating relationship when past wounds

are making it hard to trust or even sexual wounds that make it difficult to be okay with sexual attraction at all. Do you think it is okay to be in a relationship at all while working through these sorts of problems? I think it depends. I feel like that's kind of vague. So it really depends on what it is. So if you're like knee deep in a pornography addiction and you can't make it a day. I think they're talking about sexual wounds from the past. I don't think they're talking about sin necessarily. Maybe they're talking about being hurt sexually. And so they're finding it very difficult to be okay with sexual attraction. Maybe they view it as suspicious or harmful or.

Yeah, I think it's okay. Obviously, it's okay to be sexually attracted to someone. But just because you're sexually attracted to someone, that doesn't also mean that you should date them. I think they're in a dating relationship. Oh, they are. Sorry, I'm totally... But they're finding it difficult to navigate sexual attraction with each other when they've experienced so much hurt in the past. Okay, I think... This is hard for us to speak to. I mean, it's hard for me to speak to as someone who I think the closest I think I can relate to this question is having been involved in Immoral sexual relationships prior to marriage

There can be a difficulty in seeing the goodness of the sexual urge and the sexual embrace Within it because you've associated it with something illicit. Yeah. And I think there's also like continuing to get that healing yourself, not just in this relationship that you're in and just praying for the grace. Because I do think that, and now I'm understanding the question more, I think when you do have a sexual past in the background, it's harder to remain chaste in a relationship. It's easier to drag that person down. Or if you both have, I have a friend where they both were sexually active prior to engagement,

kind of heard the theology of the body, fell in love with it all, and is like, I want this. And then the guy wanted to get back together with her and she had to choose. And she's like, I don't know that, I don't know that I don't think he will get back together with her and she had to choose. And she's like, I don't know that, I don't know that I don't think he will get back together with me and us not be living together and having sex all the time and all these things.

And she had to wrestle with it. And I was like, well, you gotta decide, are you worth it? She's like, I am, but I'll walk away. Like that's okay, let him walk away. And so she told him, she's like, okay, this is like, I'm open to dating you again, but these are my new standards and none of these things will be happening.

And this is why. And she expected him to be like, you're not worth that and walk away. And he didn't, he may end up and was like, okay, let's figure this out together. And I think their dating relationship, I think their engagement, I think everything was so much harder because they had already been together, but by God's grace and persevering

through that, they've had a good blessed marriage and that's wonderful and amazing. So I think there's hope. Yeah. It's also difficult to give a specific answer to this because it's not, he is rightly not being specific about the wounds he's received or she's received. So this might be something you need to work through before dating. It's hard for us to say. My girlfriend and I have been dating for six months and we are sure about marriage.

I'm planning to propose in 2023. We are both very Catholic and really enjoy each other's company, but my family is all atheist. I converted from atheism three years ago. I know I shouldn't worry about these things, but I know that everyone is going to see it as something weird if we are engaged before we've been dating even a year. Am I crazy for this? Is this too fast? If not, I guess I could just use some better articulation on my own inclination to marry earlier rather than later.

Let it be weird. Who cares? It's totally worth it. I do it now. I, when we got engaged, I told people and they're like, you have a boyfriend? I was like, oh yeah, I do. So this guy just moved from Australia and we're getting married and, but I didn't care. They could think that's weird. I'm like, oh my goodness, do you even know this guy? I'm like, yes.

He sees a part of my heart and he knows me better than so many people that have known me so much longer. It doesn't matter. Yeah. And I'm glad that, I'm sure multiple people would have given me so much longer. It doesn't matter. Yeah, and I'm glad that I'm sure multiple people would have given us advice to go slow and people did like so long engagement long Like you got to wait at least two years. I didn't listen to any of them. I think yeah, you were 22 and I was 24 I think yeah, no, that's when we got married. So maybe 21

Yeah, I mean father Bob Bedard who is the founder of the Companions of the Cross, once said, since discernment has become fashionable, no one's made a decision since. And there's real wisdom in that. It's not that we shouldn't discern, it's that we discern in order to make a decision. So it sounds like you have discerned. If you haven't, find some people you trust in your life

and flesh this out with them. I think it is important to find some people you trust in your life and and you know flesh this out with them I think it is important to like look to people we trust Who are objective observers and say what do you think about this relationship? What do you think about this girl that I'm dating? Do you think she would be a good mother to my children? Do you think she would be a good wife? Do you think we have a healthy relationship? I want to marry her What do you think because they're not in the romance of you think we have a healthy relationship? I want to marry her. What do you think? Because they're not in the romance of it all. They're not in the passion of it all that can sometimes be there.

And so listening to those people who love the Lord, as opposed to people who may be atheist and therefore may look down on marrying or marrying so quickly, might be good. Yeah, I think that's huge. And I think my really close friends in Houston, I remember talking to them and they were so supportive and like, Matt's perfect for you. Like this is so great. Like even when you moved there,

like it was just like, wow, this makes sense. And just having good friends that like have only met you once, but just them being with us, seeing us interact or like, this is great. Noah T says, hard to find people to answer these awkward questions. What does a healthy sex life look like in marriage? How often, when, spicing things up, etc. How do you combat lust? When does it become lustful? Sorry if this is too personal of a question. Let me try to set the grounding for this. So Thomas Aquinas says that there are two ends,

he actually points to this in marriage, the marital act, right? If it is in order to give comfort to the other through the sexual embrace, this is a matter of justice, something the wife owes the husband, it's something the husband owes the wife. It can be in order to procreate, which is the principle and the sexual act. So those would be two things to think of, first of all. I know this is a difficult line for people to accept today because of how men in particular seem to have abused their sexuality in relationship to women. And I know that women can do that to men as well, but as a man, I know that men have hurt women. I know that women have been deeply hurt by men.

And so it can be difficult to try to state what the scriptures state emphatically and what the saints have reiterated without it sounding like a threat. So I really don't want to do that. But if you look at 1 Corinthians chapter 7, maybe we don't want to take the Bible seriously, right? Maybe the scripture isn't inerrant and it's not the word of God and it is outdated and therefore We need to come up with new advice and new wisdom. I don't think that's true So like let's have a look

Let's have a look here the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does and Likewise also the husband does not have authority over his body, his wife does. Stop depriving one another, he's talking about the sexual act, except by agreement for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayer and come together so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. So it's very hard to read something like that, to say that you take the scriptures seriously and then say, but a wife's allowed to reject her husband or to deny him or that a husband

is able to deny the wife. Now, but I also think that this only makes sense in a relationship of mutual respect and love. So if I want to be intimate with my wife and my wife is sick, surely it would be the loving thing to lay my life down in this, to sacrifice that desire, to put it that way, because I love her and don't want to hurt her. As opposed to saying, well, scripture says this, like there is this kind of this mutual love that has to be in place for this to work. But I might not be doing a good job of explaining this, but when you say how often, I think

it's like, I don't think you should be denying each other. So if you're the man and your wife wants to be intimate with you more than you with her, then you need to be intimate with her as much as she wants to be intimate with you. And I think vice versa. And I know that circumstances may prevent that sickness or some other thing and that's legitimate and in those situations I think the other person needs to be mature enough to understand that and respond with love and patience and kindness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do we think? That was well said. Yeah, I agree. I feel like it very much.

Every marriage is so different. And the yeah. So when you ask what healthy sex life looks like, it's like, well, what does your marriage look like? It's exactly different. Yes. Yeah. I think that every I think it's easy to say every married couple should be doing like they need to have intimate time weekly, like go on a date, go out to dinner, go, I don't know,

do something special just the two of you. Like that's easy to give like at least once a week. Sex is different though. It's like, okay, maybe for you it's every day. Maybe for you it's twice a week. Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's not for the next six weeks or eight weeks because your wife just had a C-section.

Like, so it very much depends on the season of life in which you're in. Maybe it's not for the next six weeks or eight weeks because your wife just had a C-section. So it very much depends on the season of life in which you're in. And I think that, I think changing the way you look at it as how can I love my wife in and through this or how can I love my husband in and through this is a much healthier way than how often, how many times in a week.

It's the wrong question, kinda like how Jason says like how far is too far is the wrong question. It's like, how many, how often should we be coming together as a married couple renewing our wedding vows? It's the wrong question, but it's how can I die to myself and love my spouse today? That's the question. Right? So I think being intimate with your spouse is good. And that is a good, wonderful, beautiful thing. And the desire for that is good. There are times that's not appropriate, like right now, how awkward would that be for Thursday?

No, sorry, sorry. I was doing so good being serious. I know. It was funny. You're good. Thanks. But then there's other times where it's like, now's fine, right? And so using prudence in that, but choosing the way you're looking at it. Like how can I love my spouse?

And I think that, I think that women, I think where we get in a bad spot is, like nagging wives. I really don't like nagging wives. You shouldn't be one. You're not one. But I think that's not a nagging wife. I think that's where this gets us into trouble. So like someone making a comment like, Oh, you know, my husband, he's like one of the kids or, Oh, I got to go home, you know, because if I don't, he'll get upset.

Or, you know, tonight's Thursday night. So like, I've got to do my duty or something like that. Do you hear people say that really? Like, really? I hear people say things similar. Yeah, I know. I see it on TV, but I don't. I do. I know that I hear people. It's different in the We're also in a beautiful community with beautiful Catholic women who love their husbands. So I do not have friends like their wives. I've never had a friend because my friends are good people

who say, got to go back to the ball and chain like I've never. You know, you do you slap them? Yeah, you really like unless unless it is a joke in which case it might be funny. But it's like if you're serious, like, oh, God, do we need to talk? Like, OK, do I need to hit you? Yeah. No, I don't think your kids hit your friends. T-shirt. Perfect. Yeah. No, I think that there is. Yeah. And I think it I think as women, we need to be aware

and then also tell our husbands. So so one thing that I had to learn to tell you early on in marriage is I'm exhausted and I am tapped out. I've been touched all day. Like I'm pregnant, someone's moving inside of me. I'm breastfeeding someone. I'm giving my body to them multiple every couple hours because they need this. And I'm just so tired because I'm not sleeping.

So to then do everything like have dinner, clean the kitchen and then be like, honey, it's like, okay, it's really hard to switch from mom mode to wife mode. And so we got really good at, or you got really good at, like, honey, why don't you go take a bath, or go relax, or go do something. I'll put the kids to bed and clean the kitchen. And then that gave me the time of taking a deep breath. That's something that men and women

have to take into account. Like it really is true that like, like men are usually ready whenever. Like, it's three in the morning. That's fine. But and to realize those differences in men and women. I had a great dry bar stand up bit about this, about this ironically, a dry bar bit. And it was a, it was, it was a pastor who did marriage counseling for young married couples. And the bit was that the lady comes out I

Pastor I I just I married sex feed and he's like he looks at the guy. Are you looking at no? No, no What's wrong? He just he wants to do it all this time. It's he he looks at her goes sweetheart This young man saved himself to bear it. She better get ready This young man saved himself to marriage. You better get ready Yeah, so I mean recognize and like I think I think I think I've heard you say this before that it Sometimes it is what it is and it doesn't have to be a magical romantic. We're crying together encounter Yes, if you were to expect It's almost like receiving the Eucharist. Like if I'm only going to receive the Eucharist when I feel deeply like moved

spiritually, then I wouldn't receive it nearly as often. And that wouldn't be good for me. Right. So I'm going to receive it even if I'm just kind of distracted and I'm disciplining children and someone's sneezing behind me, you know. I'm not trying to make a strict analogy. There should be no one sneezing behind you, you understand. Or disappointing the children in the moment. That shouldn't happen either, but you know.

Yes, no, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, and I think also just communicating to each other and then like, okay, and then also being like, okay, this is what was great. And then this is what we maybe need to work on or like, or different, like, especially when you're pregnant, like different positions, like different things, like have the conversation. Like if you're not talking about this in your marriage, there's something not right. Like this is like you and

your husband or wife should be having these conversations and should be saying things and go to them and just say, like, I feel like I desire to be together more often than we are. What can we do to make that happen more? Okay, this is what we could do. Okay, great. And then we're working with things, right? And yeah, that's it. Thank you.

Shia Hobbit says, I heard from a reliable source that girls have cooties. If so, should us guys all hide on an island? Is it curable? And then a woman responded, yes we do. No, it's not curable. So we're going to just abandon these questions. Cooties. Hey, I want to say thank you to the greatest prayer and meditation app in the history of prayer and meditation apps. You know what I'm talking about. Hello, as in H-A-L-L-O-W. Check this out, they've got sleep stories, you can learn how to pray the rosary,

they have audio books, they have my lo-fi, incidentally, but check this out, you can even let Dr. Scott Hahn put you to sleep at night, not because he'll come over to your house and strangle you. That'd be weird, although for the right price. Check this out. Good evening. Oh, come on. And welcome to tonight's Bible story.

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Please sign up. Maffrad.locals.com. Back to the show. Wait, sorry, I didn't have the wide angle. Can you do it again? Cooties. Let's see. This person asked to be anonymous and says, my best friend, boyfriend, decided to explore the religious life at the moment.

I was expecting him to propose. Don't laugh. The poor girl. No, you're fine. I feel your pain. Yeah. We please don't cut that out, though, because that was a great laugh. We love each other, converted and grew together, but we are trying to follow God's will first.

Is it hard for both of us to set one another free, take some distance while not falling into resentment, fear, depression or distractions? Any advice for such a situation? God bless you both and happy new year. So I went on a discernment retreat with the Sisters of Life. It was like a week long thing where we were just praying and discerning. So one of the girls there had been discerning religious life for a while. Her boyfriend proposed and she said,

I'm so sorry, I can't, I don't know if I can say yes yet. Could you wait for me? I wanna go on this discerment retreat. I can't give you a yes or no. And so he said, yes, I'll wait for you. That's okay. So they put a pause and it was like three weeks later

on the discernment retreat. At the very end, she stood up and said, she's like, great news, I'm not entering here. I'm getting married. And everyone like gave her a round of applause and they were so happy for her. But like the mother Agnes was helping her discern between their order, here sisters of life,

and this gentleman. So it was no longer discerning my vocation as this big massive thing, but it was this particular order and this particular guy. And her point of view was she's like, I love both so much and I want to make the right choice. Where's the Lord calling me? And so she took the time aside and then they got married. I think they had a really short engagement, but she'd like left the discernment retreat. And I'm sure he was waiting for her to be like, sorry, don't I look good

in blue and white? But instead she went into his arms. I do like, I accept, I accept let's get married. Right. Um, and so I think that it's hard, but it should be quick. So I think you should say what our friends said to you when you were discerning both. Yeah, I like what you said there. It should, it is difficult, but it shouldn't be something that drags on forever. So I called my friend David Dobblesteyn and I was discerning between the friars of the renewal and pursuing my wife who lived in America, which meant a major move either way, right? Cause the friars were in America. Um, and he said a few things to me that I don't know if they're as profound as they sounded to me at the time.

I think they probably are, but they really helped. He said a few things, and I don't remember in what order he said them. But one thing he said is, you cannot walk two paths at once, you will split yourself in two. So you can't be at one point discerning marriage with this particular person,

and at this point looking at like vocation weekends and if you know, like you need to decide. And he said, if you were laying in bed at night and you heard a loud bang outside, you'd be somewhat obligated to go and you'd feel obligated to go and see what that was about. And he said, it sounds like the Lord is making a noise with Cameron. It sounds like he's making a banging and you need to go and see what that is. That really helped me. Yeah, I forget what else he said, but I knew that I had to make a decision. I couldn't just sort of let this kind of fantasy life of joining a religious order kind of remain there. I had to kind of sever

one of those off and then pursue something. And so do you remember when I called you and you were at that wedding? Yeah, I still and I- So you were in America at the time, I think. Yes, I was in America. I was a bridesmaid at a friend's wedding and the whole wedding, I knew that Matt was going to decide what he was going to do. If he was going to, he told me what Dave said, I thought it was great advice.

You didn't tell me about the noise bit with me, I probably would have been more excited. Sorry, one more thing. I think I was really afraid of getting married and here's the real truth. And I'll just say this quickly, but it's a lot deeper than it sounds. And I think if people have had any experience of this

or any depth to them, they'll feel how deep this is. I was so afraid of being exposed. If I was a friar, then you could always respect me as that holy guy with his like rope around him and his big rosary doing stuff with the poor people helping him out. But if we get together, then you're going to see when I'm angry, horny, greedy, impatient. And I was so afraid that I would be a crap husband, you know, like I wouldn't be able to satisfy you intimately that I'd be a bad provider for our family. I was so convinced of that

because I was, I never did really good at school. So that was a real wound for me that I'm just never going to be able to make enough money for my family. That'd be a terrible dad. And like, I don't want to see all that. And I don't want to impose that on you and the kids. So it was like, I was acting out of fear. Like it was like, if I don't want to go with you, because then all that will come to light. So anyway, I didn't mean to cut you off.

No, no, no, that's, that's good. And I think you're right, the decision point has to be made and why you're, why you're making the decision. So for me, I had said whatever decision you made, like if we were going to stay together, I was fine with that. And if you want to be a CFR, that was fine. I was going to let you go. And I'm like, the phone calls will stop, the letters will stop. Like everything's going to come to a stop and I will give you the freedom to go pursue what the Lord's calling you to do, and I will pray for you, but there needs to be some distance between us. And I was convinced that you're going to choose the CFRs, like all of Mass.

And I was just all of Mass and it was a beautiful Catholic wedding. It was actually these friends that I was talking about earlier. And so just seeing them and being so happy for them and just the Lord had worked in them so amazingly well and just the Lord had worked in them so amazingly well and just beautiful. And they had this very secular relationship to this beautiful, holy marriage, like was amazing. And desiring that.

And it's like, okay, Lord, this is what I desire. I desire the cute little flower girls, right? I'm like, I desire to make those. But I was like, it's okay, whatever He decides. And then I had my phone on me, most of the reception, and you called after the reception when I was back in the hotel room. And I think I remember hearing you talk and I was like, it's okay, that's fine. Not a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Protecting, right?

I was protecting myself. I had already decided that you were saying we were breaking up and you were going to be a CFR. And I'm like, that's fine. I wish you the best of luck. And you're like, I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. Yeah. And it's quite dramatic, but I think it needed to be. I actually went into my journal and actually wrote like, today I stopped discerning the priesthood. Today I pursue Cameron Maeda. Yeah. And I made that concrete decision. And then I avoided viewing websites to these, the Fray, Franciscans or whoever, as almost like a temptation. Like, no, I've made the decision.

That was really cool. Yeah. I think sometimes like we are, we think that if we don't make a decision, then we have everything in front of us and all the options are available. But in truth, if you don't make a decision, you get none of those things.

Yeah. Yeah. I got to tell people about when I proposed because I would like to encourage and this needs to be a clip proposed to your girlfriend. All right. So just to reiterate, it was a father, Bob Dard, who said, since discernment became fashionable, no one's made a decision since being hyperbolic. But the point is that we can all hide behind discernment.

It's this very spiritual sounding word when really we're called to make an action, to make a decision. And certainly you need to discern. You need good people around you to help you discern. But at some point you're going to need to make a decision and you won't be ready. Like my wife and I still aren't ready for marriage. Nope. We have four children. We've almost been married 17 years. We're not ready. And so at some point you just have to make a decision.

So I had moved to America. You and I were dating, looking to marriage, and I actually had brought an engagement ring with me. So I had like, I bought it in Brisbane, moved to America. The plan was to propose to you, but I was nervous. I remember asking God for three ridiculously audacious signs and I got none of them. But that was okay. But I knew I had to just make this decision on my own. And I called my friend Mark Bennett about 4pm at Texas time. It was very late or early in the morning where he was, I think. I forget. But I said, I'm thinking about proposing to Cameron, but I don't know, man. This is a big

decision. And maybe I just got caught up in the excitement of in all of this. Maybe I should come home. Maybe I should. And he said exactly this. He said, what the hell are you talking about? You idiot. She's better than you anyway. You need to propose before she figures that out. So that night, that night I proposed to you. So I'm so glad that I did, but yeah, we need to, we need to make a decision. Yeah, agreed. Piss or get off the pot. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And I'm so thankful that you did make that decision and I yeah like I was talking to someone when we were at seek and he was talking to me debating whether or not he should ask out this girl because he's not sure if that's who he should marry and I'm like you don't have to marry her you can go

for dinner you can take her on a nice date you don't even have to take her on a second date but don't discern don't keep discerning this sounds like a new young person problem. What do you think Thursday? Oh, yeah Cameron and I actually had this exact discussion about this story with this guy on the way back from seek So sorry guy if you're listening Props to the guy props to the guy because I'm sure now he's asked the girl out and he's going on a date with her No, so good on and I had this discussion and this is my diagnosis of this issue. And I think Cameron agreed with it is that I said that, um, dating in chastity culture and Catholicism is a good thing because it was needed.

It's gotten to a point though, where we've drilled into young men, don't date a young woman. Don't take her out. Don't date her. Don't even like think about it. if you can't see yourself marrying her. And what they do is they stop thinking, oh this girl's fun, I should take her out on a date. Because they've convinced, because we've said don't date for fun, don't date for fun, date for this reason. But by using the word don't date for fun, like as in dating in and of itself, guys have convinced themselves that a girl being fun is not a good enough reason that you might marry her. And that is a load of crap.

If a girl is sufficiently fun and you have a great time every time you're with her, that is a reason you might marry her. And if she's fun and you find her attractive and you haven't asked her out yet, you're an idiot. Your IQ is tied to whatever the temperature of the room you're in is. You need to get it together. Thank you. What say you? Advice from Thursday. You're going to start your own podcast and

just clip these things out. I agree. I think that, yeah, you've got to ask her out. And I think same with, like, I went on a lot of first dates that didn't end up with second dates. Not because he didn't want to go on a second. Some were because he didn't want to go on a second date, but most were because I didn't want to go on a second date. But I'm like, okay, we had one date.

Like we tried. And I remember this one guy kept, he kept asking me out and I kept saying no. And I'm like, you don't, and he's like, just give me one date. And I think I was in that mindset of- What a cool guy. That's awesome. We played soccer together in our mural. He wasn't, I don't even think he was Christian,

but we played soccer together. We had fun together on the field. And I'm like, I'm not like anyone else you've ever dated. He's like, I realized that. That's why I keep asking you out. He's like, I've asked you out like so many times, please just give me one time, one time. And I'm like, I'm not like anyone else. You've ever dated. He's like, I realized that. That's why I keep asking you out. He's like, I've asked you out like so many times, please just give me one time, one time. And I was like, good for him.

I'll give you a date, but I don't think it'll be more than that. And to his credit, he wine did die me. It was like a piano bar thing where a pianist was playing lovely food wine at the end of the night. He took my hand and gave me a kiss on the hand. And I was like, okay. And typical college guy.

And then what happened? And then I went on a second date with him. He got a second date. And then what happened? He got a third date. We dated for like a month. Okay. And then eventually, I think it was when,

like one time he wanted to get together and, he was hanging out with his friends. And I was like, these are all a bunch of losers. Like, I'm like, you're awesome and you have great potential. You're just not living up to it. And I can't marry like, someone who's has more fun hanging out, smoking pot with their friends than actually doing things in this world. So we got a couple of dates, but nothing, but I think it was,

it was his perseverance that I eventually said yes. Right. And I knew I wasn't going to marry him. But we had a few dates. They were fun. And I think if you call it something other than date, like what is the thing that you're doing going to dinner, having a cough? What would my pet peeve? You want to like hang out sometime, Bro, she knows what you're saying. You know what you're saying. The only thing that she's thinking by you saying

hang out sometime instead of like can I take you out to dinner? She's not man enough to actually ask me on a date. Yeah, either that or like something condescending like oh it's cute how nervous he is or something like that. But not in a good way. Oh, yeah, that's fair. No man wants to be thought of cute because he's nervous. And I don't think I would think he's cute. I would think, sorry, strap on a pair.

I'm not going out with you. Yeah. But my point in saying that isn't that we shouldn't be using the word date. It's just to say when you realize we're going to dinner to have an experience together, like that is something that people can do together. Yes. You can have a date and not be dating someone. You can go on like multiple dates with different people and you're not dating any of them. Like that's a whole

different thing like going on a date versus dating as in like more like that DTR happens after a date. Yeah or at least a couple. Yeah. Yeah and and and then I also think that there's a freedom in it that it doesn't work out and that's okay. And I, yeah, yeah, I feel like it's the same. Yeah, the overly discerning and for girls, it's different. Like I think girls, we can legit not date anyone until we meet the guy we're going to marry and just date him. I think you can do that. I don't think I could have. Like I think there's something to, like I was just talking about one of my Among the Lily's Marco Polo ladies went on a first date. It was like a Catholic match thing She was nervous and and we asked how it went and she's like

It was fun about Catholic match when you finish this you may absolutely But but she said it was it was a good first date, but she doesn't know but it's good to like have that another girl who just got married is in her early 20s and she's like, I appreciated the Catholic online dating world so I could weed out what I did not like and I could narrow down what I wanted in a spouse. And then she met her husband in real life

and they're happily married and they're still newlyweds. But I think there's something to saying like, okay, I will go on a date, we will see how it goes. And then, yeah. Fair enough, yeah. All right, here's Thursday's rant on Catholic Match. It is unusable. Catholic Match?

Unless you pay for it. Oh, okay. And then it is still unusable. I hope they never asked to advertise and then find this episode. What was that? What was that one that our friend made? Catholic chemistry.

Did you ever use Catholic chemistry? It also just does not function. What don't you like about these websites? They're not something broad like they're unusable. Like what is it about them? I mean like like Catholic match, for example, you cannot send someone a message unless you are paying for one of the two people is paying for the service right even if you like

So let's say I find you were to find somebody on Catholic match. You're like 25 miles away, right? Like you're pretty close Okay, you mutually like each other Can't send a message. Okay, but if you pay 20 bucks, what is it? What is it? How much does it cost? 30 a month. Okay, pay $30 and write her a message. Is she not worth 30 bucks? Okay, hold on.

I've heard this argument before. Okay. This is a fair argument for the person using it. Like why didn't you just pay the money? Fair. Okay, right. I'm talking about the actual like, why is the company setting it up to where you have to pay $30 to send someone a message who you have both expressed interest in?

That's like because they're in it to make money, not just to get you a girlfriend. See, this is my if you pay 30 bucks a month and send her a message, can she receive it even if she's not paying? She can, but she has to wait 10 days to respond. Why? Oh, that's interesting. Why does she have to wait 10 days? I have no idea. No, there must be some reason. Is it because she hasn't paid yet? Yeah. But if she did pay, then she pays. She can reply immediately. Yeah. And I think you also. But she sees that she has a message from you. Yeah.

Or she can read it. I don't know if she can see. So in the past, I do know it used to be that you could only unlock as a non-paying user Like so and you got if you got messages, you could only unlock one every couple days So then also like even if you're paying and sending someone a message, there's a chance that they don't even see the message Unless they're also paying I Think you both need to stop being so cheap at all Yeah, I think you both need to pay like like if you pay. Yeah, I think you both need to pay. Like if you're on there to meet someone and you know that.

So this is my thing with something like I never. I'd give her 30 bucks just to call her in America to talk to her back in the day. Right? We have no, yeah. We're like that was one phone call. No, no, no. I have no, I'm like, okay, I don't think you should always be on Catholic Match, but I think or Catholic chemistry or whatever it is. But I think give yourself a set amount of time. Okay, I'm gonna do six months.

I'm gonna get on, sign up six months. But don't you think you miss the, I mean, I think this is obviously true and nobody would disagree with it. You miss the nuance in a person's character. I completely agree. Yeah. So I think if you live in Steubenville,

you don't need to be on it. Oh no, you don't. No, just move to Steubenville. I don't use it anymore. I'm just saying like, when I get here with- We could start a new website called Steubenville and you just move here and then we and that's your dating although We need to get you No, I get ladies. I don't your emails in the comments below. I don't use it anymore

I'm complaining about when I used to use it. Yeah, it was like yeah, and also so the other thing that happened and They added a filter where they could tell if you were sending your social media to someone to message without paying and they killed those messages. So you would have to pay to message on those services. No, no, no. I think that's totally fair.

Why? Because they're a company trying to make money as well. Like if they were in it just to be good hearted and set people up. Maybe it's like the fact that they call themselves Catholic that you think that ought to be more interesting. But yeah, the marketing and the like the labeling makes me feel like they ought to be more more interested in, you know, yeah. At a certain point you get into like you're trying to sell the holy relationship and then

you're getting to like the selling of holy. This is why I've never started one of these. Interesting. You have maybe a danger to where you're moving towards simony. Like if you're marketing like the potential of holy marriage and like we got holy marriage, but it's like each of you has to pay us that like we make 60 bucks for the start of your relationship that's going to transform into a holy marriage. It's like, okay, you're getting kind of close to selling of holy things, which is explicitly stated to be a simoniac act.

All right. Let's move on. Rachel says, has your attitude changed about conflict since marrying and has that attitude about conflict helped resolve your differences? I think we've always been pro-conflict. I think what's been good in our marriage is the more we understand about ourselves and our wounds and our baggage, the more we understand our own reactions to things. Yes, that's fair. And like the times you and I fight, you often say like our wounds are like rubbing up against each other. It's like we're just, yeah.

But I think we're not afraid. I think from the beginning we weren't afraid of conflict, but we had no idea where it was coming from before. And now that we've been together for so long, we're really learning what it's coming from. And when one of us has like a, yeah, no, I think conflict is good. So long as you do it fair, like fighting is okay if you fight fair. Agreed. Yes.

And with the hope of I want to become a better person at the end of this fight. Gosh, it's hard to do that. And I want them to be a better person as well. So hard. Like as soon as anybody feels threatened, they naturally become defensive. Because defensiveness is the appropriate response to being under attack. I know. That's what you should do.

And so whether you are under attack or you perceive yourself to be under attack, you naturally become defensive, which is appropriate. It's just from that posture, it's almost impossible to have a constructive dialogue about what to do next. When I'm protecting myself from the person I should be loving. And that's where I think it's important to say, like, okay, I can't deal with this right now. I need to step away for a moment.

Can we have the conversation in an hour? Or after I go for a walk or a run or something. But I think we're getting better at it. I think we've always been good at conflicts. I think we've always like, we've always like. We've always had them. But we make up afterwards, right? So I feel like we've always been good at it.

Right? I think we've always been good at having conflicts. It's not like we were ever like, well, we just can't talk about this. Right. No, our problem has always been we've clashed too heartily. Yeah. And have sometimes fought unfair. But I think as we've grown in self-knowledge, I think our fights have become less intense

and more beautiful because I know what's going on in me. You know, like you'll say something and I'll hear it a different way than you're saying it, but it only took me 17 years to realize that when you say that you mean that and therefore I don't need to respond like that kind of thing. Yes. This is why friendship is so important. Like it's so important if you can to plant your little sapling of a marriage within a culture of Catholic disciples, because it's so hard to do it on your own. But if you've got people around you who love you and they love your marriage, things get easier.

I agree, but at the same time we were alone. And it was bloody hard. And it was, but like, we were best friends through it. We got through it. I think there's something beautiful to knowing that like, yes, our marriage, I think is more intense than your average because we have no phlegmatic traits at all. And neither of us like we're always like, we're both very strong willed. But at the same time, I think knowing that neither of us can ever leave or walk away,

we haven't been afraid to hit those hard things. And you're right, it's better when you have community around you to help you. But if I don't know, I'm just picturing someone who's like in the military and it's like, I don't have fellowship. It's like, that's okay. We went through many years without it. It's helpful when you can have it, but have that phone a friend that knows. And the person that you should call is someone that you know will take your spouse aside. Yes. That's a great point. So when I am mad

at you, I call a couple of girlfriends that are similar to you temperament wise, but will always speak well of you and always be like, not want to be getting advice from somebody who's throwing your spouse under the bus. No, no. And then Cameron, this is what Matt meant. When you said this, this is how he felt. And I'm like, that's not what I meant. Well, just so you know, that's how I would have taken it. I'm like, oh gosh, okay. So what should I do now? Give him time, give him or show, make it up to him. Do this. Like I have- In fact, if you have a friend that does throw your spouse under the bus, stop talking to him.

Critiques them, stop being friend to themiques them, stopping, stopping friends with them. If that's your only solution, hit them, hit them in the face with a cold. Sure. You can hit them or just go away. Don't hit your children. Yeah. No, that friend's not helpful. Like you need friends that are, or even I find, um, yeah, I have a handful of small

friends that I talk about you too. And they all love you and they all would do anything for you. I have a handful of small friends that I talk about you too. Yeah. And they all love you and they all would do anything for you. So yes, they, and then you too, I know that you have friends that you talk to about me. Yeah. And none of them would be like, man, your wife. Right. No, they would all speak well of you.

As soon as they did that, I feel like. And won our marriage to be beautiful. Yeah. That's really good advice, Cam. I like that a lot. And I would never talk to a girl that comes to me complaining about her husband. I would never tell her about intimate things in my relationship. Say that again and say why, because that's excellent advice.

If a girl comes to me who's often talking bad about her husband and she asks me things about our marriage, I will never tell her anything intimate about our relationship because I see how she's speaking about her husband. But I will. I am actually the queen of standing up for husbands because I have a more, I understand, I do not, I am not the masculine role in our relationship, but like I have some characteristics that in relationships tend to be more,

like I get where the husbands are coming from. So I'll have girlfriends come to me and like, oh my goodness, my husband, and he wasn't even thinking of me. And I was like, and he was so rude and he did this. I'm like, whoa, whoa, he wasn't thinking. Like he just legit wasn't thinking. Like he was focused on his project and what was going on.

He was clueless to you being drowning with the kids. He didn't even think of it. And like, no, no, no, he did. And that's why he didn't help. I'm like, no, no, no, he like legit didn't. If you say to him, honey, I feel like I'm drowning and I need help with the kids. Could you help clean the kitchen? He will. Well, yeah, or whatever it is. He might.

Well, well, with my friends that I love, I see what you mean. No, I love, I love that you do that. Yeah. Like if I had a husband, if I knew I've had a friend like Neil, for example, like if I, if I knew a guy and he was married. Please to stop saying the phrase, I keep saying, Neil left me for a woman. I didn't know I was saying it. I said, Neil left me for a woman.

And I honestly, even the first time you made fun of me for it, I didn't know why it was funny. That is hilarious. And it was only after the fact that I realized how that sounded. I'm glad he left you for Shayla. Shayla is awesome and beautiful. She can love Neil way better than I'll ever want to

or be able to. Anyway, if I had a fella who came up to me and started, yeah, just ripping on his wife, bitching about it. Like, yeah. Hit him. Hit him. Don't hit your kids. Hit your friends. Hit him and walk away.

No context until the 20th minute or something. Very good, darling. Hitting your friends and not your kids. Open hand though. Paige says, has your experience with homeschooling put any extra stresses? No. Next question. Yes. Absolutely. Has your experience with homeschooling

put any extra stresses on your marriage? My husband and I are seriously considering homeschooling our two girls and would love to hear how this has challenged strength in your marriage. Yeah. It's bloody hard. It's hard. But I think my line is I am the best at homeschooling

my children when I pay someone else to do it. And I think it's true. Yeah. When you get tutors to help. When I get tutors to come in and help. So just because you're homeschooling my children when I pay someone else to do it. And I think it's true. Yeah, when you get tutors to help. When I get tutors to come in and help. So just because you're homeschooling your kids doesn't mean you need to teach them every single subject. I think I've tried the homeschool hybrid thing before and that did work for certain years for us.

If I could do it all over again, I would have just straight up homeschooled the whole time and just hired certain tutors for certain subjects, certain kids. Yeah, because sometimes packing their lunch and getting their uniforms ready and driving them and then picking them up is way harder than eating bonbons on the couch and playing the Lord of the Rings audiobook. Not even reading it, just playing it. Because that's what I do every day.

In the cupboard. Yes. No. I'm just joking. Playing it while we drink. My wife and I just, we go drink in the cupboard. No. I'm just joking. Make me a Bobby drink. My wife and I just we go drink in the cupboard. We played a lot of the rings. Yeah, that's how we homeschool.

And that's, you know, don't be critical, you know, to each his own. Different families are different. You're a horrible parent, Matthew. Right. No, I think I also lowered the expectation. So I used to think like my goal with homeschooling the kids was to give them this education and it needs to be here so they can get into any college, they can get a good SAT score, whatever.

And now I'm like, that's a stupid goal. My goal is heaven. I'm gonna get my kids to heaven. They may or may not know their multiplication facts and how to read. But so far, so far so good, the majority of my children know their multiplication facts and can read. And can have great conversations with other people.

Yes, the beautiful kids. They're lovely. So like right now, I left my house and I have my kids and my neighbors, three kids, putting on a Nativity play. And they're doing it tomorrow night for us. But they were practicing, so they moved all the furniture and they're memorizing lines and they're singing songs and they're learning different things. And the older ones are teaching the younger ones. And Thursday may have told me that they're

riding the youngest as a donkey. Peter's the other riding Peter. Yeah, he's sitting on Peter. For Peter. So a 10 year old sitting on an 8 year old. He's like on all fours. Crawling. And Kiara's sitting on him sideways. But, hold on. Her legs are too long.

So she's like sit walking sideways. While sitting on Peter. But they've got a scarf as the donkey lead. So it's like around his shoulders. And at one point it like slipped up onto his neck. And I was like, oh, hold on, time out. I'm not gonna, like the writing of the youngest seems to be a normal thing that Catholic siblings would do.

I'm fairly certain all of the parents will be angry if I don't tell you to not put the scarf on his neck. This is what our kids are doing. I would say homeschooling kids becomes a lot less stressful if you learn to be okay with the mess. And I don't just mean the mess of the home, which we obviously want to alleviate depending on our tolerances for it. But the mess of where your kids are at academically and how one is progressing and one isn't. I think, I mean, you want to be able to curtail that and create order.

You want to create order because that's how people can learn and not want to kill each other. But there's going to be a big, there's going to be a degree of messiness and you have to come to terms with that. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. You're the one who does it. I should ask you. No, yes. No, I agree. And I think that the longer I've done it, the more I've given myself more grace and I expect more. And I'm like, we do bare minimum. Like we're going to do dictation. We're

going to do like you're going to read every day. You're going to do math every day. We're going to do dictation for like 10 minutes per kid. You're gonna do some type of copywork. And then we like listen to a great history program. And then we go to like a homeschool co-op type thing where we do nature studies or journals. We went to seek and like at one point, actually we were at the salt booth and Peter was counting all the bracelets. And I was like, all right, now make piles.

And this is your math for the day. And one of the sisters was like, I love that. I'm like, I mean, this kind of is. Like we're, they're homeschooling. We didn't really do real schoolwork while we were at Sikh cause it was crazy and busy, but our kids were running around and playing with religious and having great conversations, going to confession.

So good. Our oldest wrote like a paragraph on the talks that he went to. So, yeah. All right. Can we finish with this question? So good oldest wrote like a paragraph on the talks that he went to so Alright Can we finish with this question? Well, and if you if you see another one like this has to be asked feel free otherwise this can be it Says and this is a oh She just said anonymous at the front of it. I said her name

Cut and action. This person who wanted to be anonymous, even though I accidentally said her name, so we just cut it out and if we didn't, Thursday's fired. How to find the Lord's will in where you are called to live move. Both my husband and I feel a pull from our families

to live close to them. They live in separate states and feel guilty about disappointing either side. We have lived in a different state from both sides for almost three years, but want to live near family eventually. I mean, this is something we can relate to. What do you think? I would look at the family. You obviously love each set of parents. What family has other community besides the family? So look and see which one has a better parish. Look and see which one has a better, whatever you want. Like, do you want a really good Catholic school? Do you want a good homeschooling group? Do you want lots of outdoor adventures? Like,

look at the things that you desire in a family and pray and discern both. But look at it because maybe one family is great, but then you're like that's all we'll have. We'll just have the grandparents. That's it. And then when you have to break that news to the disappointed family, you're able to say, look, we love you and it breaks my heart that we won't be happy with you. The reason we're going here in addition to being closer to his or her family is there's all these things. Yeah. So this is the decision we've made. That's the other thing.

I would make the decision and tell them that you've made it as opposed to here's what we're thinking, because then you've got to deal with back and forth as to why that might not be a good idea. You also may want to consider other factors about the grandparents themselves. Yes. Like, is there a set of grandparents that isn't Catholic and therefore it's gonna be harder to raise your kids as Catholic around them? Then, you know, the spouse whose parents that's the case of needs to be grown up enough to admit that that's a significant point against living close to their family.

Because if you've got Catholic grandparents you can live close to, or non-Catholic grandparents you can live close to. It's assuredly going to be better for the kids. Well, maybe. I mean, it sounds like in this situation, yes, what you're saying, yes, it sounds like they're both great sets of grandparents. But if one set of grandparents is like mean and horrible to the kids and they're Catholic, it's like, no, I go with the ones that are nicer to my kids. But you're right. No, in this situation where they all things being equal. I agree.

And then also, are there other siblings who have children and how are they raising their children? Because that'll affect the way your cousins interact with each other, play with each other. Is that all good and healthy and helpful? Yeah, just other things to discern. But yeah, I think we live, we live in a, we live in a time that we can live,

most people can live anywhere. And so I think that's why Steuben Mill is exploding because so many people can work from home and they can live wherever they want. And it's like, okay, what do you want in a town? Like, do you want- Do you want a meth problem? Do you want potholes?

Yes. Do you want broken down buildings? Do you want the water to go out for a week? Do you want the water to? Do you want potholes? Yes. Do you want broken down buildings? Do you want to lose? Do you want the water to go out for a week? Do you want the water to go out for a week? Do you want your radiator to currently be leaking? Do you want to occasionally, but not always, hear gunshots in different streets?

Stubbenbill! No, but it's yeah, no, but having a place where you can like it's so easy for us to raise our kids in the faith. They're not weird. They're not. I mean, they are weird. They're awesome, beautiful, weird, gorgeous children, but they they're in a town where other kids are the same and they're.

I don't mean to laugh. I'm thinking about something and I can't help but think about it. And now I'm laughing at it. So I may as well just say it since I've already interrupted your train of thought. OK, so Peter Crave once said, you've heard me say many times, you'd rather be in love in the Bronx than divorced in Hawaii. Right. And I've often said it's kind of like that with student bill. Like I would rather be in community in student bill

than alone in Hawaii. And why I'm laughing is I shared that with Sister Miriam James once, and she started smirking and is like, I'm just wondering how offensive, like someone in the Bronx is like, hey, that's what I'm laughing at. Hey, you would rather be in love in the Bronx. Like, what the hell? I love where I live. It's cool here. But anyway, that's this one's laughing at.

Real quick, Cameron, would you rather fight 100 duck-sized Brittany Brunningers or one Brittany Brunninger-sized duck? Oh gosh, that's a hard one. She is, she's a wonderful, beautiful person. And I would not wanna have to stomp on 100 necks. Stomp on her that many times. I would feel bad. I feel like her, her mama bear side would be coming out.

So as long as none of her kids are near her, I think the small ones, cause I'll just stomp on them all, except for one and I'll pick that one up and I'm like, Brittany, I love you. You're my best friend. Let's be friends. No, I wouldn't hurt that one. So you would've killed 99 of them. And then, yeah, I would stomp on the other 99. They couldn't really be a hundred Britney Bruniges.

I mean, you can't have one soul. No, only one's really her. I see. And the others are the demonic spurns. And I can tell. Because they don't blink. They have red eyes. Yeah.

No, it's something even subtler than that. Like you notice that only one blinks. So I pick her up and save her. And then I stop on all the rest. And then her and I are friends. Or the two of you work together to destroy the 99. Oh, I like that one. Yeah.

Duck-sized Brittany Bruinages. Yes. This is significantly less funny than when we asked British. I don't know, I think it's, it might be less funny, but it's more specific. It's way more intelligent. All right, well, my love, you have a podcast

and it is called Among the Lilies. It is. Yes, that's true. That is it. It's for ladies who are tired of pretending and are ready to be real. And we talk about real life stuff and not Instagram versions of you, but being real you and then whatever random thoughts pop in my head. That's what we talk about. And there's a lot of amazing, beautiful, holy people that I interview. And actually the intimacy question we had earlier,

I met three different ladies at Seek who thanked me for my sex series. They listened to it. We should explain what that is. Yes, I have a series. It's a seven part audio. Seven part. Actually, I think it's like 10 part now.

But yes, it's audio. It's basically me having beautiful, amazing, intimate conversations with friends of mine. And we're talking the theology of the body. And we're talking to married, dudes, do not listen. Do not get on. It's behind a closed paid wall. I had a priest that got an account, but it was his name.

I'm like, I need you to change your name. He's like, is it okay if I give it to all he gave it to all the women all the Precana couples and his parish like you could do it But could you please change it to precana couples cuz father whoever commenting weird. Yeah So it's a very intense discussion on all sexual that that gets really Way more personal than you think it's gonna get. And people can get that by becoming a patron of yours. Which is what?

Patreon.com slash among the lilies. But it's just, it's good. It's conversations that you need to have, but it's especially for girls that don't have friends that are already Catholic, married, living this out. And so I just interviewed some of my friends that were. That should be an ongoing thing you do on the Patreon account.

I know I need to. It's so important. But I agree with you. It's not something you would want to share publicly. No, no, it's got to be. Yeah. All right. Thank you, everybody.

Be sure to like and subscribe. It's funny now that I've gone over that three, what? Three hundred thousand hump. I'm like, I'm so tired of telling people to subscribe. Do whatever you want. I don't even care. See you.