Pints With Aquinas - Eastern Catholicism w/ Sr. Natalia

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

Sr. Natalia and Matt chat about Eastern Catholicism, Favorite Books, Monastic Life, Pride, Being a Bride of Christ, Eastern Wisdom, and Much More!   🔴 FREE E-book "You Can Understand Aquinas": https://pintswithaquinas.com/understa... 🔴 SPONSORS Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/ Ethos Logos Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints 🔴 GIVING Patreon or Directly: https://pintswithaquinas.com/support/ This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer co-producer of the show. 🔴 LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ 🔴 SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Gab: https://gab.com/mattfradd  

This is Natalia. Matt Brad. Lovely to have you here. It's good to see you again. Yeah. In person. Do I look different? You look different because the last time I saw you, you were two dimensional.

I know we've met once before. I definitely thought you were going to say something about my weight or something. And I was like, you don't do that. Never. You do look different. You lost the beard. Much to my dismay. Do you want to tell people what you said?

I don't remember. It probably was lacking charity, though. Yeah. So I don't know if I should say it. I don't care. It probably was lacking charity though. Yeah. So I don't know if I should say it. I don't care if you say it. Well, you said, man, you stopped going to Byzantine church and you shaved your beard. You've become a real pansy. I shouldn't have said that, but you gave me permission.

I don't remember that I said that. So it's okay. There we go. First time I met you, I was giving a talk in Cleveland. I think it was Cleveland, the seminary. And immediately after I was walking out And there was this woman Who looked like a Muslim, you

And you were skipping Through the snow banks I was just like, this woman's amazing Yeah, that's great But we already had the mutual connection of Father Michael So I knew of you Though I had never met you Well thanks so much for making the tribe down Yeah, it's really great of Father Michael. Yeah. So I knew of you, though I had never met you. That's great. Yeah.

Well, thanks so much for making the tribe down. Yeah, it's really great. I have one of the other nuns, Mother Gabriella, with me. So shout out to Mother Gabriella over in the corner, tying chotki. Tying chotkis. Yeah. What is a chotki for those at home? Chotki is a prayer rope that we pray the Jesus prayer on. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner, or some or some variation of that and how often are you tying them is this just something you do when um am i allowed to say

what you're tying that one for no oh i don't mean what you're tying it for i mean like it's cool that she's sitting in the corner doing it like do you do this in the car do you do it just yeah yeah oftentimes in the car or you sell them right when we're um oh man we do technically i don't know if i want thousands of people to know that though yeah we they do not sell them right when we're um oh man we do technically i don't know if i want thousands of people to know that though yeah we they do not sell them do not buy them they are horribly they're the worst chocolate you do not want this ever that is so yeah sometimes people will be on the show and they'll be like yeah my email is i'm like oh gosh don't do that why would you do that yeah but yeah it's it's nice to have you um You just got off a pustinia.

I did, yeah. Did I tell you that? You did, yeah. Oh, I did. Yes. Or no, and it came to me in prayer. Yeah, I told you. Tell us what that is and why you took it and what was that like. Sure.

So pustinia is the Slavic word for desert. for desert um and it um it kind of became popularized i would say it became popularized in the united states through katherine doherty um a lay mystic who's just incredible woman but she um she started the uh madonna house yeah and up in cambermere ontario i believe sure yeah you know things um that so so pusten, meaning desert, is the time that we take to be alone with the Lord in the desert. Because the desert isn't meant to be a place. I gave a whole talk on this about, it was called finding hope in the desert, I think. But it's, you know, people think that to go out into solitude, into the desert can be a place of emptiness. But it's actually a place of encounter with the Lord.

Like that's where he went when he, you know, fasted for 40 days. And that's where we can encounter him. And there's like, there's the verse in Hosea. I want to say it's Hosea 2. But it says, I will, it's the Lord speaking. And he says, I will allure her. I will draw her into the desert. And there I will speak tenderly to her heart.

And so, yeah. So anyways, it's a time of being alone with the Lord, basically. So at our monastery, we kind of use the word to be both the time away and the place. So we have these little retreat houses called Pustinia. And us nuns, we go once a month, we go on Pustinia, each of us for about 48 hours. I would like there to exist a religious order whose sole job is to look after families' kids while they do this as parents. That would be nice. That would be nice. If someone feels called to start that order. We do have some couples. So we have one that I call it the, I won't say their name because I don't know if they

would want that, but I use their last name and call it the, we'll say Johnson. I call it the Johnson trade-off. And what they do, they live a couple hours away from the monastery, but one of them will come on Pustenia for 24 hours. One of them will come on Pustinia for 24 hours. And then the other one drives up to the monastery with all of the kids. The couple and the kids all stay and have dinner with us. Yeah.

And then the one who was on Pustinia takes the kids home and the other one gets a 24-hour Pustinia. That's really beautiful. And so that's pretty cool. So you stayed in one of the cabins. How many hours did you say? It's typically about 48. What's that experience like? Because, I mean, you're in a monastery. You're already praying a great deal.

Presumably you don't have as much of the distractions that I do and other people do in the world. You would think, yeah. Yeah, but no? No, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it's less than in the world. It doesn't feel like that at times. But there's, you know, it's different to, it's different to take the intentional time, you know, because there's a difference between, there's a difference between, first of all, being alone and being in solitude. I don't feel alone when I'm on Pustinia.

So, but there's also a difference between an interior and an exterior silence. And so, though the two obviously complement one another greatly. And so there's something about like being very intentional with this time of both interior and exterior silence and being in solitude that allows for a different kind of encounter with the lord than we have in our day-to-day life um but it's also like i'm not i'm not doing i'm stepping away from the work of the monastery and so it's just a lot more time of intentional um intentional prayer we're supposed to try to pray without ceasing right uh as saint paul says but but it's time to do that more intentionally and maybe if you have like something that you want to spend a big chunk of time in prayer about then we have this this chunk of time so so what i was going to ask is what's it like going from everyday life into the pustinia like what's i'm sure there's like a slowing down period where um you mean like once i get into the pustinia there's a slowing down

i'm just thinking of my eight day silent retreat last year, right? Like you show up and they're like, here's the chapel, here's your bedroom, the end. You're like, well, now, now what do I do? Yeah. And it takes a while to kind of fall into a more human tempo. Yeah. I think, I think it's not, it's not, it's probably not as, I guess that's the difference maybe of having,

having like you're saying more distractions in the world, I don't feel that transition as much as a nun, I don't think. There might be a little bit of time that I need to kind of slow my brain down or whatever, but we have enough times of, you know, we have a few hours a day that are designated as silence. And every Friday morning, we have silence. We have a pustenia morning until noon and so there's silence and we don't even have we don't even have morning prayers a community and things like that and so i think i have enough enough times of silence each day that there's not too too much of a transition drastic transition yeah um but you do have to slow your slow your

brain down a little bit we have um so the the jesus prayer like i was talking about that we pray on the chotki uh each day atesus prayer like i was talking about that we pray on the chotki uh each day at morning prayer and evening prayer at the monastery we start with 15 minutes of the jesus prayer in silence and and that's part of the intention especially vespers um evening prayer also called the spurs by some people um me because of my dumb phone texting you incorrectly yes um so the it like you've been going all day and you know even as monastics we can we can just get caught up in all of the things that we're doing during the day all of the work and so the the jesus prayer at the beginning of those 15 minutes are really a great time to just kind of calm, calm the mind and really try to, to enter

into, um, like these deep, deeper places within yourself, um, to, to approach Vespers with more of that interior silence. So, um, yeah, so we do need the spaces to kind of have the transition too. I want to talk more about the Jesus prayer. We touched upon it, what Chalky means and all that, but it'd be cool for those who are watching right now. And they're like, I've really never heard of this. I'd maybe love to be in, get into it. Tell us a bit more about it. Okay. Um, the, so the Chotki, it kind of looks like, um, you know, a lot of people think that, uh, it's a rosary that we have on our belt. Um this is, so that's a tchotchke that I wear on my belt. That is not one that we made. That's one that a friend of mine gave me from Ukraine. Well done for not saying the Ukraine. Continue.

Thank you. One of our sisters is Ukrainian. So you can just toss it across the table. No, no, no. It's not a secret. Good. Yeah, that's fine. Some of them have a tassel on them. So we don't make them with tassels. So if you want a tassel, do not order one from Christ the Bridegroom Monastery. And if you don't want one, still don't order from us because we can't handle the amount of... But the tassel is meant to dry your tears. dry your tears. So as you're praying the Jesus prayer, it's supposed to move your heart with contrition, but also simply with love for the Lord. So like I said, the prayer,

the form that I use, because it could have more or less words than this, is Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And so it's this beautiful, it's acknowledging the identity of Jesus. It's acknowledging his divinity, son of God. And it's acknowledging his mercy and it's acknowledging our sinfulness. And so it's got all of that in it. So it's a really powerful prayer. It's got the name of Jesus. So it's a very powerful prayer.

And the way I typically pray it um some of the fathers write about praying the jesus prayer with your breathing and that's something that that really they and i recommend you do under the direction of someone so with a spiritual director i wouldn't recommend necessarily just like picking it up and trying it on your own but um and you gotta say why now because that sounds a a bit confusing to people. What do you mean I can't do a prayer on my own? Yeah. So, um, it can be, it can be a very intense prayer.

And it's one, if you're, if you're trying to, especially if you're trying to like tie it in with your breathing, then you could just start getting like even unhealthy breathing habits and things like that. Um, but part of the intention of praying it with your breathing is to, because breathing is something that we just do all the time, you know, without thinking about it, obviously. And so if you get in the habit of praying the Jesus prayer with your breathing, then you're going to start praying the Jesus prayer throughout the day. And this really does happen. Like I realized that there are times that I'm praying the Jesus prayer

without even realizing it. I can attest to that. My wife had surgery a couple of years back, and when she woke up and was still unconscious, she was praying the Jesus prayer out loud. That's beautiful. And her doctors told her about that. That's amazing.

That's amazing. So anyways, when I pray it with my breathing, I typically, for each of the two phrases, I breathe in for the first half and out for the second half. So I'll breathe in, Lord Jesus Christ, breathe out, Son of God. And then the second part, I particularly like praying it that way because then for the second part, I'm breathing in, have mercy on me, and breathing out, a sinner. I like that you do that because it really slows the prayer down.

Yeah. So it takes me, so to pray 100 knots of the Jesus Prayer, it takes me about 15 minutes typically. And I know this because we have the 15 minutes before Matins and Vespers, and I typically get around the Chalki one time. Yeah. So anyways, I like that because in the second half, I'm, it's, I'm very intentionally breathing in his mercy and breathing out my sinfulness. And, and the second aspect of that is the order of it is I'm breathing in his mercy before I'm breathing out his sinfulness.

Because I think that we have this temptation to, to try to, to try to kind of like perfect ourselves and get rid of our sin in order to approach God, in order to ask him for mercy, in order to ask him for forgiveness. It's like, I've fixed myself. Now forgive me for those things I did. But actually, we need his mercy to even be moved to work on the sin. You know, like we need his mercy in order to expel the sinfulness. And so I really like the order of that. Yeah, we love him because he loved us first.

Exactly. Yeah. So it gets rid of that kind of self-reliance. It doesn't get rid of the self-reliance. I'm extremely self-reliant. It works on the self-reliance. Do you ever get kind of bored with the formula and try and come up with ones on your own? I don't get bored with it. I will say there's something that I learned from a Coptic nun that's been really beautiful for me. And that's incorporating scripture into the Jesus prayer at times. And so most especially I'll do this with the Psalms. So for instance, one of the Psalms, it says something about my soul waits for you in silence. And so I might pray that's, that's one of my favorite forms of the Jesus prayer incorporating scripture is Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, my soul waits for you in silence. Um, yeah, so I might, I might

do something like that, uh, that kind of combination, but I think really as much as we can sticking to that original form is good because it, again, it has, it has the name of Jesus. It has the recognition of his divinity, his our sinfulness it's got like everything in there yeah yeah yeah that's beautiful so this espresso is really delicious is it good yeah yes i like the cups too yeah someone brought these shout out to mike welker and cindy welker who brought me four cups for my birthday oh when was your was your birthday? You gave me nothing. Well, I don't know when your birthday is. It was July 16th.

Oh, you've never given me anything for my birthday. When's your birthday? Does it matter? Nope, because I was still... You're not even a good friend. You don't even know my birthday. When is it? April 12th.

Okay. Is it a feast day? Of course it's a feast day, somewhere. In one of the calendars, it's a feast day. It was Pascha last year. Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, yeah, 2020. Why do you look like a Muslim woman? it's a feast day it was pasca last year oh wow yeah i mean yeah 2020 why do you look like a muslim woman that's a good question it's more so that the muslims look like

us so um so so this was the the traditional eastern habit um before it was the traditional muslim wear um so you'd have to ask them why do you look like Sister Natalia I'm sure they'd love to hear that question what kind of comments do you get you know I don't think I don't think as many people mistake us for Muslim as you would

think I think part of that is because of the Chotki on our belt people think it's a rosary. And so they, the rosary is not an Eastern tradition. So as, as you know, Matt, so it's not a rosary, but the, but we do have lots and lots of other devotions to the Theotokos, our lady. Before everybody is shaming you in the comments section.

Before all of the comments about how Sister Natalia hates Mary, please know we do love Mary very much. And we in fact pray to her more in our you do shut up oh that feels a bit um that's not what i was gonna say that was your those were from your mouth not mine um but are you looking for the shaming comments yeah there's none i think yeah they'll come though don't worry that's what youtube come boxes exist yeah absolutely um so so anyways the i don't think we we don't get it as often as you would think but at the same time i'm sure there are lots of people who think it and simply don't say anything um but see even if it doesn't look like a muslim dress right it doesn't look like a stereotypical nun dress right so what kind of

things do people say when you get so sometimes sometimes the comment um when people come up to us they say what are you and i'm like a human being what are you what are you a rude human being um so so no we get that a lot what are you um and we also get sometimes the are you um what is the do you and then we usually just say, I'm a nun. And sometimes I'll say I'm a Catholic nun just to kind of clarify. But the best response I had, that barista that I was telling you about earlier in Whole Foods, she was very enchanted by the habit. And anyways, she said, once she realized I was a nun, she was like,

she was like, that's punk. And I was like, all right, great. And that's what it takes to be punk in a day and age where everybody's rebelling against all norms and customs. And she said something about, she was like, yeah, I knew an Orthodox priest one time, and he also wore the black drab. And I was like, yeah, black drab. That's what I wear. Yeah. So, yeah.

But we do get, we get a surprising number of people who, who instantly recognize that we're nuns. And they might, they might ask for, for clarification, but their assumption is that we're a nun. Yeah. And, and that can be just really, really, we, we get very few negative reactions once they know that we're nuns. I think that probably happens a lot more with priests than it does with nuns but um it's overwhelmingly positive but it's it's part of the reason that i that i love that we wear the habit is because

i'll have people come up to me in the grocery store or the doctor's office or because we we always wear this you know um and even on my home visit when i'm with my parents and stuff i'm wearing the habit and so we'll just get people come up to us in these random places and they say are you a nun and and i'll say yes and then they just pour out their hearts and and just like the depths of their heart and um and sometimes they'll share like places of shame or just these places they need prayer or they and it's it's so humbling because I know it's immediately clear that this isn't this isn't about me. Right. Like they have no idea who I am. But to them, like I'm I'm I'm a bride of Christ.

And so they're speaking to me as a bride of Christ, as someone who has, as far as they know, an intimate relationship with the Lord. And they're entrusting their heart to me. And that's very humbling because, again, I know it has nothing to do with me. They don't know me from Adam, from Eve. And so it's a really beautiful thing. Did you tell me you grew up in Colorado?

I'm most recently from Colorado. I've moved over 20 times, but most recently I'm from Colorado. Why? My dad was in the Navy for 20 years. My dad was in the Navy too. Respect. What is it like for your parents the first time you came back dressed like that? Were they proud of that?

Did they think it was a bit weird? How did your friends and acquaintances react? Yeah, those are different questions um the my parents my parents are thrilled they're uh i mean they're just super supportive really really beautiful people um my dad's my biggest fan um but he uh they so so they're both really happy with it um they i'm sure it was hard i think i think it wasn't i don't think it was a big transition for them for me wearing the habit um i i'm sure it was hard for my mom um that i had a new name simply because like she's the one who named me this is the name that she gave me you

know um so i'm sure that was a little difficult. But they, yeah, they're just thrilled. And it's never been weird for them or a question for them of like, well, why can't you wear your normal clothes when you're at home or anything like that? Like they just are super respectful of it. And yeah, so that's been easy. And with. Do you bump into people from school or that used to work with and like oh wow you look very different to me yeah it's pretty shocking for people who knew

me when i was in college um no it's it's happened um it's happened a couple times um but but not often i think that um for the most part the people that I see now are the people who knew me when I was discerning. So it wasn't really, it wasn't totally shocking. So yeah. Beautiful. And then I'm sorry, I have a thousand questions about your habit, but why is mother Gabriella wearing a gray thing? It's a great question. She probably should have been wearing black. So shame, shame. We are all about shame. Don't get that vibe at all. So no, we, um, shame, we are all about shame. Um, don't get that vibe at all. So no, we, so, so black is the, the traditional, the traditional habit is what we would. Um, so theoretically we would maybe always be wearing black, but we have the, the gray habits are for,

um, especially for work. Um, especially if we're like working outside and it's very hot or we're working with bleach or things like that. So we do have the gray habits that we can wear. Those are more for like work and play. And the black is for, so I guess she thought we were just going to be playing a lot when we came today. Yeah, I was going to ask, how do women play in the monastery? What do you get up to? Oh, we have lots of play.

We'll go kayaking. Mother got real on paddle boarding recently. Really? But we'll go kayaking. Wearing that habit. Well but we'll go kayaking we'll go hiking um well we'll go hiking we also have an exercise habit that we can wear um so does it look like sweatpants and a sweater what does your exercise look like how is that different it's culottes do you know what culottes are no yeah no that's that's your um it's the it was big in like what time frame mother the gabriella what time frame was yeah probably

like 50s um but it's like the the pants that go like maybe mid calf but there's like so much material that they kind of look like skirts oh okay you know what i'm talking about not at all like super flowy and yep anyways um that and just like an exercise shirt and then a head covering but sweet yeah um paddle boarding kayaking yeah um i'm so glad you didn't say like hopscotch and checkers oh you know no no please um we do like games though yeah yeah board games like cool board games or old lame ones that have been donated to you um both yeah yeah i one of my one of my favorites is ticket to ride have. Have you played Ticket to Ride? Yes, it's a great game. That one's so fun. A friend of mine recently sent us, what's it called?

What's it called? I think Spot It. Okay. And that one's really fun too. But yeah, we like games too. But I like climbing trees. I like- Do you have particular trees or just any tree you'll climb?

You're going to love my son, Peter. Remember Peter? Peter can fly. Can he still fly? Can he show me? He will show you that. He'll also show you our bees. Oh, that's fun.

Which he loves. Will he climb a tree with me? Yes, 100%. Great. He'll be so excited. Yeah. I don't know what else we do for fun, for play. You know, people ask me like what I do for fun and downtime. I don't know what else we do for fun, for play. You know, people ask me like what I do for fun and downtime.

I don't feel boring. Like I have a joyful life, but my fun is sitting with people and talking. It's this. Smoking a cigar while I'm sitting talking. Having a drink of bourbon while I'm sitting and talking. That's about it really, just sitting and talking. I also like to read. We're all, all of us at the monastery, well, most of us in the monastery are pretty big readers,

which I had watched your interview with Father Boniface. Yeah. Because I love Father Boniface. He's a good friend. He's so great. And he just like, he looks at you and his eyes just pierce into your soul. He just sees everything. I never gave you permission.

I know. But like with such love. Yeah. Such love. It's amazing. But anyways, I watched your interview with him. And when you asked him like what he reads for fun um what did he say it was like theology books and like textbooks what do you read for fun oh i like elizabeth gouge i don't know elizabeth gouge um i uh jane eyre is one of my favorite books. I really like Jane Eyre. Michael O'Brien. You like him, yeah.

Yeah, he's great. So, I don't know. I'm currently reading, amongst other things, Winnie the Pooh. Really? Yes. So, I'm reading Winnie the Pooh in Spanish to brush up on my Spanish. Really? Good for you.

So, that's really fun. Yeah. I'm reading The Brothers Karamazov again. That's so good. Third time. So good time but i'm going through it very slowly you know how the chapter is quite short because they were written for a russian newspaper originally actually so i'll like read one a morning just he is there's so much in there yeah i did i did a book club on that with uh with a couple well now they're both priests at the time it was a priest and they're brothers though. So we,

it was my, my friend's father, Zach, maybe, and now father drew maybe. And so we called the book club, the brothers, maybe.

That's nice. Yeah. Cause they're biological brothers. It makes me miss my time in Eastern Christianity. My stint in the Byzantine church. It really does make me miss it. We will always welcome you back. Thank you so much.

It's very kind of you. But we might put you through some acts of penance first. Yes. What would that look like? Just kidding. No shaming comments, please. We're Catholic too, and we, yeah, all that. You said, by the way, Father Boniface, I said this to him,

he has the greatest habit, in the West at least. Like that black habit is beautiful. It must be so much more convenient than the Dominican habit. Oh, seriously. Trying to eat pasta, look what happens. Seriously. And I spill everything. Do you? Yeah. I can't believe, I didn't, actually, I didn't spill any of that espresso. Well, that's espresso. You said only black drinks, remember? So that's what we gave you. That's true. So you said you liked the interview with Father Boniface? I did. Yeah. Actually, there was something that you said in it that I wanted to comment on. Because you reminded me of, you were talking about,

you were talking about something about how when your marriage helps you to recognize your own failings and your own sin. And that, like, it's revelatory for you. Whereas if you weren't married, you might not see those same things. Yes. As opposed to like it being able to hide things. And it reminded me of one of my favorite parts. You know what? I should have marked this before we started. If I can remind you of the philokalia, I'm doing well.

That's great. You did. Yeah. So good job. You reminded me of the philokalia.'m doing well that's great you you did yeah so good job um you reminded me of the philokalia um something that that i think it's cash in it's either cash or avogreus um it's totally cash in so he's... I'll tell a joke while you look for it.

Yeah, please. That's what I was going to say. So, I don't actually have any jokes. I told them all with Peter Craig. It's fine. I found it. Okay, good. So, he's talking about the eight vices.

So, for some of your listeners might not be familiar with this, but if you hear in the West about the seven deadly sins. So, actually, where this originated, correct me if you know that i'm wrong on this or whatever but um is that uh one of the eastern fathers one of the desert fathers of agris of august the solitary of august ponticus yeah yeah yeah you wrote talking back yeah the anthoreticos yeah we read that for i think everyone at the monastery read that for the great fast this last year for lent um wow through the whole thing talking back you read that wow cool so sometimes it feels like a bit of a stretch doesn't it like he's trying to come up with more content i was i

was talking about that i was talking about that the other the other day yeah i was talking to you i was like when he some of this scripture so so the the whole concept of the talking back right the whole concept of it is is evagrius um he takes certain temptations or certain thoughts that we'll hear from, from either the devil or from ourselves or from God. But typically he's talking about ones that we hear from the devil and, and he uses scripture verses to talk back to those things. So to refute them or on the rare occasion that it's a thought from God to, to, to give praise for that to give

thanks for that um so uh yeah but some of them i'm just like i that is absolutely i can't imagine that's what that scripture meant um but so they're they're a bit of a stretch i think honestly though if people want to read that book i think what was most helpful for me in it was simply the way that he articulates the thoughts i'm like i do have that thought and temptation and i never would have been able to articulate it as well as he did that's exactly what i feel not exactly like that but it's true yeah i'm like i i bet you are the first person to ever compare a various the solitary to seinfeld to a stand-up comedian yeah yeah no but it's so spot on he's like when when the spirit of sloth says whatever you can watch another episode of netflix what's the harm that's a direct quote direct quote from agrius yeah but but it's great because it's helpful

for confession or for spiritual direction to be able to say this is what i was experiencing like this was so anyways avagrius the man who wrote this book um he came up with uh the concept of the eight evil thoughts the eight evil thoughts then um cashin who was a disciple of avagrius he took the eight evil thoughts combined two of them combined another two added one that's the seven deadly sins and then he brought that west and then gregory the great kind of like yeah interesting so but cash and learned of the eight evil thoughts from avagrius since he was his disciple so he's writing on the eight evil thoughts and on this is an excerpt from his writing on anger so uh bear with me it's kind

of a long paragraph but it's really good let's do it and um this is what you reminded me of when you were saying that that um your marriage has been revelatory for you as opposed to to kind of hiding your sin it's helped you to see it he says self reform and peace are not achieved through the patience which others show us but through our own long suffering toward our neighbor when we try to escape the struggle for long suffering by retreating into solitude, those unhealed passions we take there with us are merely hidden, not erased. For unless our passions are first purged, solitude and withdrawal from the world not only foster them, but also keep them concealed, no longer allowing us to perceive what passion it is that enslaves us on the contrary they impose on us an illusion of virtue and persuade us to believe that we have achieved long-suffering and humility

because there is no one present to provoke us and test us but as soon as something happens which does arouse and challenge us our hidden and previously unnoticed passions immediately break out like uncontrolled horses that have long been kept on exercise and idle, dragging their driver all the more violently and wildly to destruction. He then, he then, um, Oh, it goes on for a while.

Let's read the whole thing. Okay. Audio book. Okay. Number one. Um, seriously. Okay.

Our passions grow fiercer when left idle through lack of contact with other people. Even that shadow of patience and long suffering, which we thought we possessed while we mixed with our brethren is lost in our isolation through not being exercised. Poisonous creatures that live quietly in their layers in the desert display their fury only when they detect someone approaching. And likewise, passion-filled men who live quietly not because of their virtuous disposition but because of their solitude spit forth their venom whenever someone approaches and provokes them this is why those seeking perfect gentleness must make every effort to

avoid anger not only towards men but also towards animals and even inanimate objects oh that's excellent keep going please honestly i mean we can pause and comment on it but i mean immediately thought of people who throw the remote control and things like yeah exactly give yeah it's almost like this is an acceptable way of lashing out but then when you're with people you lash out in a analogous way right right he says um he says okay yeah there's just one more short paragraph i can remember how when i lived in the desert i became angry when the rushes became angry with the rushes sorry because they were either too thick or too thin or with a piece of wood when i wished to cut it quickly and could not or with a flint when i was in a hurry to light a fire and the

spark would not come so all embracing was my anger that it was aroused even against inanimate objects that's beautiful one thing i notice about the saints of the east and i'm sure this is true of western saints i just notice it more in the east is how they talk about their own failures very openly even current ones not just things I've overcome and now I'm great. But it's interesting because they talk about what I'm struck by is they talk about it not with a spirit of despair. You know, it's like there's also a great trust in the mercy of God. Yes. Which I think is a sign of their sanctity, you know, so because it's to, to think of our own sin and to fall into despair.

That's why it's dangerous to, to look at our own sin without first putting ourselves in the presence of God, you know? Um, and that can be very dangerous, but I, so I like that a lot because we've talked about this at the monastery because, um, there can be this assumption that, um, that the holy thing is to just like be a hermit, you know, be away from, to be away from everything. And, um, but that's, that's not necessarily the best thing for us, at least for a certain time. So like, so like in our monastery, in our typical, our rule of life, um, there's, you have to be a life professed

nun for several years. I think it's something like 15 years or something like that in order to then become a hermit. Because it's like, if you can't actually live in community. You're just escaping other people. Exactly. And so I see this in myself, this or this this writing on anger by cash in um every time i go on pustinia so or nearly every time so it's like i go on pustinia i have this radical conversion from some kind of scripture you know and i'm just like i'm sitting there and

i'm like i love people yep i love people i am actually like i can go out there and love anyone god puts in my path because i now just, I know how to love. Jesus has taught me. And then I come out of Pustinia at Compline and I'm like, they're late. Why are they late? Why is everyone late? Did anyone consider the fact that I'm here? Did anyone slip me a note?

No, no one slipped me a note. They're just late. And then I'm like, I don't love people. You know, you're paraphrasing the Brothers Karamazov, since we already mentioned that. The old woman who speaks to Father Zossima. And she says, I find that the more I love humanity, the more I hate my neighbor. Something to that effect. Because humanity isn't late.

Humanity isn't inconsiderate. Humanity doesn't forget to bring their bins, their garbage cans in all week. Good Australian flip. People bloody do. Yeah, exactly. But no, that is absolutely wonderful. Yeah, it's, yeah, forgive me if I'm just repeating what I say with Father Boniface, but I do remember, yeah, prior to having kids especially,

because when you're married and you don't have kids, provided that you and your wife get along well, my wife and I are very good friends, we basically want to do the same thing all the time. Like we'd hang out, we'd go to a movie, we'd go to a coffee shop, we'd do stuff. There was no imposition upon my will. As soon as I had children, they don't care if you want to sleep. They don't care if you'd like to be at mass and have a peaceful experience

or pray the Holy Rosary or something like that. They're going to make impositions upon your will. And it's really then that I realized, wow, there's a lot of anger here. There's a lot of stuff that the Lord needs to heal. And I thank God for that because I'm not sure. I mean, I'm sure the Lord brings it. He's going to bring it up in one way or another. So how does that work with you?

I mean, I guess because you live in tense community. Yeah. So we talk about there's this image. I don't know where it originated. So I don't know if this is an ancient thing or not, but there's, there's an image that's used for the monastic life that I love that it's like being in a rock tumbler. around and the edges are hitting each other yeah and somehow in doing that it's we're smoothing each other out um but it's like yeah it's just it's it's such a it's such a gift and it's it's a painful gift but it's like we we talk about how like it's monasticism we we get this purification we're all called to this purification right right? Monastics or otherwise in the, in the East, there's very much this clear idea of monasticism is like a sliding scale.

It's like all people are called to live monasticism to the extent that they can within their vocation, within their life. And so, so we're all called to, to incorporate that. You know, I know a lot of married couples who like really incorporate monasticism into

their home in beautiful ways, but the, um you know like we're praying vespers with your family tonight so that's that's exciting um we set it on a recording now so you have to make sure you have to do it yeah um the so so anyways but it's like in in monasticism we get that purification but in in a much more like intensified way, which makes it very intensely painful. But also just like the reward and the fruits that we're receiving from it and the joy in which we're living and the freedom that we find is just incredible. You know, can I ask a personal question? I'm going to. What is some of the rough edges that you came into the monastery with that you believe the Lord has already began to smooth, even if you're not sort of.

Oh, man. Yeah. Maybe we should ask Mother Gabriella. Yeah, we should save that for the end. We can just answer for each other. Because it's easy to talk kind of generally about it. But everyone's dealing with their own specific thing that just kind of sometimes feels like it's going to beat them. It's really going to overcome them.

And so I think speaking specifically about these things is helpful. Yeah, I'm totally open to that. I mean, anyone who's met me for like more than five minutes would realize these things. So it's not even very vulnerable. One of the things is I have very strong opinions. And I had to learn. I mean, I'm learning this all the time, but it still isn't totally purified.

None of the things I'm about to say are, but I'm learning that like, maybe my opinion isn't the best one. Despite how you feel. I know, it's crazy. Or maybe even, even if it is objectively the right idea, maybe it doesn't have to be expressed. So that's crazy. And so that's, that's like one of the things is just learning that I don't have to just speak every opinion that comes into my mind.

Unless I'm being interviewed by Matt Fradd. But. This would be a very awkward interview if you just chose to fast from speech. Right. Exactly. Um, you just have one big monologue. Um, so I could just read from the Philococcus the whole time. Honestly, that would be cool. Um, I have lots of underlines we can just go through and I can just read my, my underlines. Um, yeah, yeah. So, So that's one of the things. That's a huge thing that I honestly don't think a lot of people realize a lot of the time. Because other sins are sort of more obviously negative and people react to them negatively.

You know, like if I'm sort of swearing like a sailor or if I'm watching inappropriate things or if my hygiene is bad, although that's necessarily a moral ill, but it might be, if I'm just sitting around the couch all day, like I'll very quickly, you know, have someone push back against that stuff. But that's not always the case. If you have a sort of charming personality and you're trying to put forth an idea that's good. Right, yeah.

And so getting to mortify that sin that others may not, I mean, maybe they do if you live in close proximity with them all the time, aren't necessarily pushing back against. It's almost like a thankless mortification in a sense. Does that make sense? Right. Like they don't know that I'm holding back on this thing. Yeah,

absolutely. There's another, another big one for me is that I, oh gosh, what was I about to say? It's mortification. I don't remember what it was. It'll come.

Any more funny jokes? No, but one thing that struck me when I did my eighth day last year with the Father's Holy Resurrection Monastery in Wisconsin was just the, I was reading Teresa of Avila's, what's it called? The castle one? Yeah, interior castle. And just how important humility is.

Like I would love to do like a little word count on that. I'm sure humility is mentioned more than any other word. Just like basically if you're humble, you'll be saved. You're not humble, so let's work on that kind of thing. And there's times that you think you're humble you'll be saved you're not humble so let's work on that kind of thing and there's times that you think you're humble as soon as you kind of recognize it you sort of poison it you know yeah and so it's not even like you can come up with a list of things to do to humble yourself because then you may just interiorly congratulate yourself for doing that thing that's going to make you more humble and thereby not be humble you know know, Cashin talks about how, when he's talking about the eight evil vices, he says that the one that's the most difficult to combat

is vainglory because- What does he mean by vainglory as opposed to pride? So, oh gosh, I knew that you were going to ask that question. I think as soon as it came out, don't say it. Yeah, I know. It's really hard for me to distinguish between the two. That's okay. So he says the vice of self-esteem, vainglory, is difficult to fight against

because it has many forms and appears in all our activities in our way of speaking in what we say and in our silences at work in vigils and fasts in prayer and reading in stillness and long suffering but he says um but he says that the the tricky nature of of self-esteem or a vainglory is that um um when we, or maybe he is talking about pride at this point. I don't remember, but anyways,

the vainglory and pride are very difficult for me to distinguish between the two, but, um, that yeah, the tricky nature of it is it's the, it's the one vice that as we defeat it, it becomes more of a temptation,

you know, because of exactly what you're saying like if i'm achieving humility yeah then i'm tempted to think look at me i'm so humble um i so yeah um in my mind the way i distinguish between two i don't know if this is totally accurate is that vainglory is more about um how i see myself as amazing pride is more about how I see myself as amazing. Pride is more about making sure others see me as amazing. Or I might have just flipped this. Yeah.

Well, either way, I mean, defining what we mean by our terms, whether they're accurate technically or not, I see the distinction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So those are two of the ones that he combined. This sounds like I'm going off topic. Have you read The Lord of the Rings?

I have, yes. There's that part at the end where Frodo takes the ring for himself, right, at Mount Doom. And Smeagol jumps on him and bites it off and ends up falling into the... You didn't even give a spoiler alert. Yeah, well, if you haven't read The Lord of the Rings or watched it by now, that's on you. That's how I feel. I just read it like two years ago well see if we did this three years ago that would have been very disappointing for you i should have done a spoiler i should have done a spoiler but um when frodo is sort of outside of mount doom with sam his immediate

reaction isn't like i cannot believe i fell to the power of the ring. Like, how hopeless am I? It was immediately like something to the effect of Gandalf said, we would never see, we wouldn't know the end of this. Smeagol still might have a part to play. But again, there was that gentleness with himself, which is real true humility. Yeah, absolutely. Because the times that I fall to a sin and then beat myself up and hate myself, I mean, that's a quote from St. Francis de Sales. He says, like, when we do that, this comes not really from a place of love of the Lord,

but of a place of we feel sad to see ourselves so low as if we're shocked that we could possibly fall to that level. Right. We shouldn't be shocked by our own sin. One of the most helpful books I've read, because this is a huge struggle. One of the most helpful books I've read, because this is a huge struggle. I've really struggled in my life with scrupulosity, particularly in the sense of overreacting to my own sin. Also maybe seeing weaknesses as sins, but more so just like overreacting to my own sin, which can oftentimes become the greater sin.

But one of the books that was most helpful, I always like to give book recommendations, but one of the ones that was most helpful to me was How to Profit from Your Faults by Joseph Tissot. And it's using the spirituality of St. Francis de Sales. But one of the parts of it that I liked the most was he says that we should be most grateful when we're falsely thought to have sinned, because then we get all of the positive benefits of having sinned, like the humility and the, like all of these things. And he's like, without any of the negative

aspects of sin itself. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not there, but. I know. How hard is that? But that book's just like amazing. But it's so spot on. Like if the main thing that concerns me and occupies me is my relationship with the beloved and his opinion of me and me doing his will, as opposed to what a thousand people out there in the periphery think about me, which really in comparison to what he thinks about me matters nothing. And that's humility. What you just said is, I'm not saying you're humble. I don't know if I can speak to that. But what you just said is like, I think a good definition of humility, because too many people think that, myself included for a long time, think humility is just thinking like, I'm a piece of crap. with God, you know, seeing ourselves as he sees us. Humility is really just like a recognition of truth of our littleness, not our like despicableness or something. So as you're talking, I'm thinking of anecdotes to share, but now I'm wondering if they're coming

from a place of pride, which is probably a sign that I'm prideful because I care about being perceived as prideful. And I'm sharing that to look humble. Who the hell knows where I'm at? But there's that quote from C.S. Lewis. He says, humility isn't thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less, which I like a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that a lot too.

Hey, how did you get into reading the Eastern Fathers? Because, you know, after I read Way of a Pilgrim and got like, did the two things everybody does after having read that book, Chalky, Bill of Calia, boom. I just found it difficult to enjoy the Eastern Fathers. And even now when I read them, I think, yeah, this is, I'm sorry. Like this is not as good as Francis de Sales. This is not as good as Teresa of Avila. This is not as good as Thomas Aquinas.

Slap me, go. I'm not going to slap you because I'm a nun. Okay, but you were a western catholic at some point so did you have a transition to sort of uh i so i didn't really um so i i was i was raised roman catholic my whole family left the catholic church when i was in high school and i was really poorly catechized growing up like i don't i don't know if i even really i don't think i knew about the true presence in the Eucharist, like very poorly catechized. Um, no fault of my, well, maybe some faults of my parents, but like really they, they also were poorly catechized, you know?

Um, but then I came back to the Catholic church in college and within a year discovered the Byzantine rite. So I didn't really know that much about the Roman rite before becoming Byzantine. Well, but maybe there's this though still. I mean, those authors that I mentioned lived 500 years ago or something, not 1,600 years ago. So I suppose that's it too. There's a big emphasis, and thank God there is, on the Fathers of the Church in the East.

There should be more in the West. Thomas Aquinas, massive fan of the Fathers. So I suppose maybe that's it. Like sometimes reading the F the fathers it just feels like it's not connecting with me and i feel bad about that and i don't know how do i have to pretend that's connecting with me that's obviously not the answer right did you ever have that or how did you get introduced to the eastern fathers um i i didn't but i i would say um first of all my piece of advice would be don't do what matt did and don't start with the philokalia um that's

probably not the most gentle introduction um because what you have to remember is for the philokalia like these are hardcore ascetics um monks who are living just extreme lives in the desert writing for other monks who are living hardcore extreme lives in the desert you know um so so you have to you have to know the context right like that makes sense it's the whole like text without context is no text at all kind of thing and um that's i'm quoting father sebastian carnazzo on that i think which he probably got it from somewhere else but um anyways so so there's that i would um one of the things that i really loved, well, I really like the writings of origin, which is a little bit awkward because some of the things that may or may not have been

heresy and so on and so forth, but the, well, some of the things just are heresy. But anyways, the, there's, what got me, I'll say this, what got me first into the Eastern Fathers was probably just like little snippets I'd seen used in other things. So one example of this, have you ever read Cantata of Love? No. Oh, read Cantata of Love. Really? You're not going to take my recommendation. How do you spell it?

No, I will. I'm writing it down. How do you spell it? Cantata, C-A-N-T-A-Tt-a you need to flip your pen yeah what does that mean um song yeah um that makes sense of love who wrote it uh um sorry i'm really putting on the no it's okay blaise arminion is maybe how you say the last name a-r-m-i-n-j-o-n he's maybe a Jesuit. Is he Jesuit, Mother Gabriela?

Yeah. It's a verse-by-verse reading of the Song of Songs. Oh! Yeah. I need to read it now. With commentary by Teresa of Avila, Bernard of Clairvaux. But he's also got a lot in there of, like, origin, John Chris' stomp.

So he's got some, like like eastern stuff in there as well okay and so so that's one of the things that i think is helpful like i can now read just the desert fathers and love it yeah i can read the ladder of divine ascent by climacus which is so intense and love it because i have the context and because i have the context of all of the things that we sing in the liturgy um every day and things like that uh so as you're kind of living out this spirituality you start to be able to to understand it a little more and apply it a little more but without that or until you're there i think it's helpful to read things in which other people are using the

Eastern fathers in context. And that's what something like this book does. Okay. So cantata of love. Is there another one you'd recommend? Um, I'll think of that and I'll maybe come back to it after the intermission or something like that.

So, or we can ask during the intermission. That's a really good point because the things I just mentioned, right? Francis of DeSales, he's writing to people in the world, right? Uh, Thomas Aquinas is, believe it he's writing to people in the world. Right. Thomas Aquinas is, believe it or not, at least in the theology, writing for beginners, maybe even just beginning theology students.

Teresa of Avila is different. She's writing to her sisters. You know what? Here's another example. There's a book, a big green book, and it's called, it's fairly expensive, so I'm sorry about that but it's called um uh the orthodox do you remember what it's called the green bible the bible and the holy fathers and what it is is it's got the daily readings for the year the the daily readings in the east are different than in the west but it's got the daily readings for the year but there's also an index in the back so if

you wanted to try to find like the daily roman readings you could do west but it's got the daily readings for the year but there's also an index in the back so if you wanted to try to find like the daily roman readings you could do that so it's got the daily readings for the year and with each reading it has um a uh some some sort of excerpt like a homily or something like that by one of the church fathers on that reading so it'll have like it'll have john six something and then a homily by St. John Chrysostom on John six. And so, so this is another really good one because it's like, these are homilies that are being given to the people in the churches, you know? So, so typically it's, there's, there's one on there. That's this, this homily on St. John Chrysostom on friendship. That's like, I use this as, as my litmus test for friendship now.

Like, it's just so beautiful. Have you ever heard of the Cantea Aurea by Thomas Aquinas? Uh-uh. Okay. So what he does is it's a commentary on the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, in which he only quotes the church fathers to comment on the verse. So none of it's his own.

And he actually quotes Chrysostom more than any other father. There you go. Yeah. So that would be another one. I mean, Chrysostom more than any other father there you go yeah so that's it's that's a that that would be another way chrysostom the golden tongue yeah yeah exactly this so this that's always why i try to give if i ever go to an ordination i buy that yeah here's how to do better homilies thomas aquinas giving you the father's commentary on the gospel have you ever heard of cantina the app no oh yeah that's probably that they probably i mean there's an app

in which it steals that that That probably is it. Okay. I think it means the golden chain. Okay. So for those who don't know, Canteen is this app you can download, and it's got the whole Bible, and then you can click on any verse in the Bible, and it pulls up a bunch of commentary by Eastern fathers. I bet you that's based on Thomas Aquinas' work.

There you go. There you go. I know I said baby, but that felt inappropriate, so I went ba. Yeah, it's better to call me ba. Ba, what's up? Okay, maybe not. All right. Hey, I imagine one of the reasons you took your postinia was because you're about to make your life professional.

I am. Okay, so how long have you been in the monastery, and what does it mean to make your life professional? So how long have you been in the monastery and what does it mean to make your life profession? So I've been in the monastery for six years. And I technically should have made, I was going to make my life profession last May, as you know. And, but it was delayed because COVID's the worst. and then it was delayed again and then delayed one more time so this is this is the one it's happening september 26th it's going to be live streamed i'll be there um yeah like at the life profession not live streamed um no i won't be there at the live stream i'll be there out there i can't wait i know yeah i'm

really excited um i can't wait for my kids to see it. I'm so excited. My girls. I've told my girls that they're welcome to marry a man if they can find one who loves them more than Jesus. Oh, that's good advice. If they can't, any full-length habits fine with me. Oh, that's nice. But mostly they should enter our monastery. Hey, that's why you're here tonight.

I start working on them right now. I just see you in the corner like talking to them like, hey, Sister Natalia, come. Stop. You're like handing them pamphlets. Yeah, exactly. Reading to them in their sleep. Yeah. It's getting creepy. You go. Yeah, thanks. So actually we brewed beer for the reception for the life profession. Oh, that's amazing. And we brew beer with a priest friend of ours. Shout out to Father Scott Goodfellow. And so we do it for some of our events. But Mother Gabriella and I are-

Did you bring any beer tonight? We didn't. Oh, sorry. I guess I'll have to come to the bloody life profession. I guess you'll have to come. Maybe not. Maybe like bloody and life profession shouldn't. Sorry, it's an Australianism that I still haven't gotten rid of.

So anyways, one of the brews that we beered. Nope. One of the beers that we beered. Nope. Was, I haven't even been drinking beer. A Belgian triple because those are my favorites. And Father Michael Lachlan came up with the name for the beer and it's going to be called Triple Delayed.

Okay, I don't get it. Because my life profession was delayed. Oh, lovely. That's funny, right? I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Will you have cool little labels? We'll have it in kegs and distribute it into cups.

Just one giant label for the keg. Yeah, just one giant keg stand. That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. I love how the East celebrate. We can do that in a minute. Keep going. Final profession.

So, yes, life profession. Life profession. Six years I've been there um so in our monastery the first stage is one year with up to a year extension so one to two years and then the second stage is three years with up to a year extension so up to four years um so the whole process is anywhere from four to six years um um, more if you're in a pandemic. And so that's how long I've been there.

What a life profession is. Um, so this is the moment at which, um, I am agreeing to be at this monastery or to another monastery if my hegumenena the abbess um sends me there for the rest of my life so i'm professing to be here for the rest of my life living this life of of penance and asceticism um what i what i really really want to make clear and i think i'm gonna put i'm gonna write a letter to people and put it in the life profession booklet because, you know, they're like they're early and they're bored. And so instead of praying, they're going to like read through the booklet and whatever. So now everyone's going to feel shamed when they come to the life profession and they're reading the booklet.

But the. It'll just say, why aren't you praying? Yeah, that's what the whole letter is going to say. Yeah, I'm great at shaming people. Yeah, I'm great at shaming people. So I'm going to write this letter because I think that a lot of people, they come and they see a life profession and they just see this woman who's giving their whole life to the Lord. And that is true.

That is what's happening, right? But they see this and they see this as like, this is the epitome of holiness. This is a woman of virtue. This is a woman who is, is Mother Gabriel laughing? She was snickering a little bit. virtuous and that, um, like, isn't this beautiful? Isn't this wonderful? Isn't this joyful? And, and some of those things are true to an extent, but that's not actually, that's not actually like the primary reality of what we're seeing in a life profession. So I brought, I brought the, I just happened to have a life profession service with me. Um, but it's, it's, it's not like the gold medal that you've received for your- Right, right.

That you've perfected for life of virtue. You're entering into repentance. Right, exactly. So at the life profession, I, at some point, just a little bit into, it's in the context of divine liturgy. So it'll be a hierarchical divine liturgy. So we'll have the vesting of the bishop. And then early on in the liturgy, I'll go to the back with Sister Petra because she's making her life professional at the same time. Wonderful.

We'll go to the back and we'll start the liturgy wearing what we normally wear at liturgy. So like this with our robe and our soft hat. We'll go into the back, get changed into a white garment and no shoes, no watch no like nothing like that right just the white garment barefoot no veil hair down my hair is down my knees at this point my only chance to see it only chance yeah so don't mess it up okay hair down to your knees at this point that's crazy how do you even hold it back it's doesn't matter a vocation crisis every day. So the, and then we actually, at the first profession delay, I think I cried. And I think I cried because it meant my hair was going to have to keep growing. Not so much because, anyways.

So we walk down the aisle. And as we're walking down the aisle, we make three prostrations. And then at the last prostration, we remain prostrate and then the bishop ends up, he says some things and then he takes our hand and helps us arise.

And what's interesting though is as we're walking down the aisle, first of all, we're not singing like, here comes the bride and we're not singing, we're the bride and we're not singing we're not even singing um oh virgin pure which is one of the uh i don't know if you know the same thing i think so oh virgin pure immaculate we're not singing this um what we're singing is the

troparion of the prodigal son because we're we're we're saying um the and the troparion of the prodigal son is haste open wide your fatherly arms to me for I have lived like the prodigal prodigal common misconception does not mean one who's returned right prodigal means reckless or lavish like we call him the prodigal son because of his recklessness and lavishness not because he returned so I've lived like the prodigal I've lived a reckless life Oh Savior do not despise my impoverished heart, the heart that gazes upon the fathomless wealth of your mercy. For I cry out to you, oh Lord, with repentance. Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. That's what we're singing as we walk down the aisle. And we make these

prostrations. And in the East, so people often ask, why don't we traditionally in the Eastern liturgy, we don't kneel during the consecration. And this is especially for a Roman Catholic who's coming to a divine liturgy for the first time, this is very bothersome. And it's very understandably bothersome because it can seem like we don't have the reverence or something that you might expect. But the reason we don't kneel is because kneeling was actually, well, anyways, I won't get into that. But in the East, in the West, kneeling is a sign of humility.

So you kneel during the consecration out of humility. This totally makes sense. In the East, kneeling is a sign of penance. And the divine liturgy or the mass is not meant to be penitential. It's meant to be a celebration. And so there's no kneeling allowed during the divine liturgy. In the East, the sign of humility is a bowing.

So we do a profound bow. We touch the ground during the consecration. So anyways, the fact that we're prostrating here, if kneeling is a sign of penance in the East, prostrating is like extreme penance in the East. And so, so as we're going down, we're going down in, in repentance. And then, um, and it says, it says in the service, um, after this, this prostration, the last prostration, she does not rise immediately, but remains prostrate,

praying silently to the Lord that her sins be forgiven and that she may be received into the ranks of the penitent. And this is what you were saying, right? That like, I'm asking to enter into this life of penance. So I'm asking to be a penitent, you know, one of the monks at Holy Resurrection, uh, the, um, that you were talking about earlier, he came and gave a retreat at our monastery one time. And he said, he said, when you make those prostrations at your life profession, your prayer should be, Lord, I need this life of recovery. I need this life of healing.

And so, so anyways, I just like to be very clear for people. I think it's beautiful to think of the monasteries. I'm here because I'm a sinner. Like I'm not here because I'm a saint. I'm here because I want to be a saint. And so, so anyways, I was,

I was praying with this in my life profession and I was like, you know what though? I, so I think that it is absolutely true that it's a joyful celebration and there's, there's so much rejoicing there. But, but I think that the that it's a joyful celebration and there's there's so much rejoicing there but but i think that the reason it's so joyful is because we know that there's more rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinner than 99 righteous right and so like that's why

this is joyful because i'm saying lord i've lived this life of recklessness and and i want to remain reckless to some extent but i want it to be a reckless love for you not a reckless life of sin and so like a conversion of recklessness of sorts um so yeah so yeah that's beautiful you want to become a prodigal in that you you know you uh you become reckless in your repentance yeah exactly so yeah so that's what a life profession is but it's so there's a lot of symbolism um of baptism so like the white garment the three prostrations are symbolic of the three dunks at baptism so in the east um to be very clear about our sacramental theology we do not

believe you can be baptized more than once you are baptized once however in the east a life profession is seen as the closest you can get to a second baptism um so there's a lot of baptismal imagery and there's a lot of prodigal son imagery so um at one point the so the bishop um helps to clothe us with all of the new garments and things like that we get we get new everything we get new sandals new um new veil new all of that stuff so um new chotki we get a 300 knot chotki instead of is that what you have mother she has a 300 knot um does that not hit the floor uh they loop it up several times yeah um and sometimes put it in the pocket um so the the bishop actually kneels this is one of the most moving parts of the ceremony for me but the bishop kneels down and he puts the sandals on our feet which is which is very much prodigal son imagery

uh we will get a wedding ring which is something that our monastery in particular does but the bishop will put the just a gold band and it says icxc on it um uh and then on the inside we each have a verse that we we put inside a scripture verse can i ask what yours is or is it mine is song of songs four seven you are all beautiful my beloved there is no blemish in you uh and which was a verse that i had already picked out because it was just on my heart but then really the the profundity of why it was on my heart became very clear on my retreat with father Boniface. So, um,

it really like became enlightened, uh, later after I had chosen it. It was very beautiful. Um, but, uh, anyway, so the Bishop will put the ring on our finger and who will cut your hair and

what is it a symbol of also the Bishop. Um, so actually that's a, one of the, one of the, one of our favorite lines of the service. And by favorite, I mean we always have to try not to chuckle. But it says, free her of all carnal desire and irrational notions,

so that just as she will lose the senseless hairs in torture, she may also lay aside all senseless designs and actions. So anyways, it's a sign of just... Oh, senseless. Yeah. All right, gotcha. It's a sign of dying to the world and the things that we do for the world, especially because...

I mean, I'm adding this to it, I guess, because it's the same in a male's monastic tantra. Monks and nuns, especially in the East, everything's the same. We don't have beards, but Abuna Moses likes to say that these are our um nun beards but the um so anyways especially for a woman like the hair is very much you know her glory and so to just say like done with that that senseless so where does he cut it off it's not just a little bit it's he right so he does he does like a little clip little snips in the sign of the cross um and then yeah he'll lop it off at the the shoulders and i

am hallelujah oh man must make summer summer's easier must be very everything everything easier yeah shampoo oh my goodness conditioner brushing it i had to so i was running late this morning i like i like go to mother gabriella's cell and I was like, I'm going to be like 10 minutes late. My hair had a lot more knots than I realized, and it's just horrible. Oh, my goodness. Well, that sounds so beautiful, and I'm so excited to be there. I'm really excited that you're coming. What will it mean for you?

I mean, practically, there's obviously committing yourself to the Lord. And what are you committing yourself to, the monastery or to your mother, the head mother? What's her name? Hegumena, Mother Theodora. Hegumena. Are you committing your life to her or to the monastery? Because you said if the Hegumena sends you elsewhere, you would obey that. So one other quick thing that I didn't think to mention about,

but I thought of it when you asked Mother Gabriella about her ring. In the East, the tradition is that every nun at her life profession receives the title mother. So at my life profession, I'll start being called mother natalia uh so so symbolic of our spiritual motherhood of the the fruitfulness of this union with christ so in the east uh as as you experienced a holy resurrection all of the all of the monks at their life profession are called father even if they're a brother exactly so so father anthony is um is not a priest or deacon he's uh but he's a life professed monk so um yeah so the so i'll be mother natalia um does your life look different after that practically so there there's not much there's not much practical difference because in the in the east it's also

monasticism is very much like the apprenticeship model so um i was i was explaining this to uh someone from eastern europe who uh english is his second language and um and as i was trying to say that i was like do you know what apprentice means and and he said um he was like no and i was like and and i'm like trying to think of how to explain this. And I was like, well, you know, in days of old. And then I'm like, did I just say days of old? And then I said how they would have clockmakers. And I'm like, really?

Clockmakers? Where is this coming from? So anyway, but it's very much the apprenticeship model. So it's like when you enter the monastery, basically from day one, you're living the life of a nun. So you have like, you're given all the obediences, you're on the same schedule, you're all of those things, you know. And which is a really beautiful, beautiful way to discern it, you know. So, so not much changes practically the the only things would be i mean there are certain things just that are in canon law about like votes on the council and things like that but um the

the biggest thing would be that spiritual direction is very much a if you want to use the the western term charism like that's very much a charism in the East. And so life professed nuns at that point are allowed to give spiritual direction. And because again, we become spiritual mothers. So that's probably the biggest practical difference. I can't really think of any other practical differences. Have you ever read Imitation of Christ, Thomas Akempis? Yeah, I've read some of it, not the whole thing.

I believe, and this isn't new wisdom, we're kind of talking about it already, but he speaks of how everybody wants to be something that they're not in order to attain holiness. So the married man thinks if only he could be a priest, he could devote time to prayer. And the priest thinks if only he were a monk or maybe even a husband you know then he could raise good family in this culture of ours but if he's a monk then he could really devote more time to prayer and not have to worry about church councils and church repairs but then the monk thinks if only i were a hermit and you're

sitting here and i'm like man if only the church wasn't so sexist i would love to join your monastery that's a joke but you know it sounds so beautiful and i'll be honest and this there's a part as you were speaking there was a part of this like man if my if my wife ever passes away like i would love to become a monk but even that is i mean that's very much that's very eastern actually but even that is a reaching for something as if this isn't where the lord has placed me for my own sanctification right now. There's still a reaching out as if holiness will be had over there, but it can't be had here with the little annoyances I'm expected to put up with and my own sins.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah, no, no, no, of course not. Yeah. You know, something that I was very moved by is, so I don't mean this as a plug, but I guess this is a plug. You know Father Michael Laughlin, obviously. Yep, we love him. So he's my spiritual father. He's been my spiritual father for about 10 years at this point. I don't mean this as a plug, but I guess this is a plug. You know, Father Michael Laughlin, obviously. So he's my spiritual father.

He's been my spiritual father for about 10 years at this point, almost 11 years, actually. And so he and I have a podcast together, What God Is Not. And I can talk about the name of that later if you want. But I've talked a lot on the podcast about this sliding scale aspect of monasticism that I talked about in the East of how we're all called to live monasticism to some degree in our life. I've also shared on the podcast several parts of our typicon, again, our rule of life at the monastery. of our typical again our rule of life at the monastery and um and sometimes i'll like share something from the typical and share how i think this applies to people in the world um but the our typical there's we have a link to it a pdf on our website typical means rule of life so it's um it's uh so in the east um we don't have the same concept traditionally we don't have the same concept.

Traditionally, we don't have the same concept of orders that you have in the West. We don't have Dominicans, Benedictines, things like that. We do have Bishop Milan, the bishop of our Eparchy of Parma. He's a Jesuit and he's Byzantine. So there's like, there are Byzantine priests within the Jesuits,

Byzantine priests within the Dominicans, so on and so forth. But we don't have like the same concept of Byzantine orders. Yes. So what would happen

is each monastery would develop their own typicon, their own rule of life. And they're pretty similar. They have own rule of life. And they're pretty similar. They have kind of the same, like they're mostly based off of like Pacomius and

Basil. So they're pretty similar, but they're particular to each monastery. Ours has a lot of emphasis on spousal relationship with Christ because we're Christ the Bridegroom Monastery. I don't know if we even said that. But our monastery is Christ the Br bridegroom monastery i don't know if we even said that yeah yeah but our monastery is christ the bridegroom monastery um and emphasis on um we really feel a great pull in our monastery to to pray and work towards um reunification between

east and west so there's some emphasis in that in our in our typicon and um we also feel a great pull to like prayer for priests um and so so there's some of that but anyways um we have a link to this our typicon on our website christthebridegroom.org and so so anyways one of our podcast listeners you know he he reached out he sent an email and he's just like so um i've read through your typicon it's very beautiful and um we're like applying certain aspects of it to our family and he's just like, so, um, I've read through your typical, it's very beautiful. And, um, we're like applying certain aspects of it to our family. And he's like, um, there's this paragraph, this paragraph in this paragraph. And, and what do you think? And what's your advice on, on how we can better incorporate this? And I just was like, so moved by this, you know, I'm like,

this is someone who is a married man and he's loving the Lord and his family is loving the Lord. And they're wanting to incorporate this into their family life and, um, and, and to be holy as married people and holy as a family. And, and that's just like, that's what we need. And that's beautiful, you know, which speaking of the, the typical, um, I just remembered you'd asked the question about whether I'm, I stay with this hegemony or with this monastery. So our monastery, we want to always be smaller, like family size, large family size.

How many sisters is the max? We would probably never have more than like 15 or 20 at our monastery. So we won't have like hundreds you know like some monasteries so so once we have i don't know 10 or 12 nuns or something like that right now there are seven of us once we have maybe 10 or 12 uh mother the whoever the hegemony is at that time would take two probably probably like three of them to go start a new monastery after after this podcast when you get eight more applicants and you're bursting at the seams. We had a lot of people reach out after my last interview.

You're welcome. And what did I say to you? I said, you need to be giving me a kickback for this. Yeah. And you said something snarky, like, shut up. Yeah, that was it. That was probably it. No.

Okay. So another nun would be selected to be the hegemon to start another monastery at that point, if you grow beyond 15, possibly? Well, yeah. So, theoretically, I could be one of the three who's sent to start this new monastery. Beautiful, yeah. I see. So, that's why the service says, do you promise to stay at this monastery,

or that to which you are sent under holy obedience. I see. It's for situations like that. So, if you were sent to another monastery, you would then be under obedience to that hegemony. Yes. And so once we start a new monastery, though, this is what I mean by we don't have the concept of orders. It wouldn't be another monastery,

and like Christ the Bridegroom Monastery is the mother house. It would be totally independent, totally autonomous. They would need to write their own typicon. And I mean mean there would be very much a connection and constant communication and and visiting and all of that but it would be say governing yeah so under the authority of whatever the bishop of whatever eparchy they were in and so on and so forth so yeah that's that's really beautiful. Do you and this other sister, who will soon be mother, both of you making your life profession, have the two of you, like, talked about, like, your fears, your maybe any apprehension about this?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Does it feel like a big deal? Like, when I got married, it was a big deal. It was like, oh, this is it. There's no turning back now. Yeah, it doesn't feel as tremendous now. But then we didn't have a six-year preparation.

Exactly. Yeah. And also, it felt like a really big deal last May. But at that point, by the time it had come around, you know, like, I was committed. I had made my decision. And after the, like, year and a half of kind of the prolonged it's that's all kind of you know I've just gotten used to the idea yeah so it's like I said my big yes a year and a half ago I just happened to not quite say it publicly yet yes so it doesn't but at first it did very much

feel like a big deal and and that's emphasized in the service like the the bishop is saying you know several times he says um be sure you realize the nature of these promises which you have made uh and he says um he says um give god fitting answers to these questions fearful and yet joyful and so there's the whole the whole profession service has this beautiful tension between an acknowledgement of I'm sinful and I am undeserving of, of this opportunity. And I'm not actually going to be able to fully live out these things that I'm saying I'm going to live out. And that's terrifying. And there's this great weight and this acknowledgement of my sinfulness. And there's a tension between that and God's immense mercy and the trust in his love and the trust that he's going to help me up when I fall and all of that. So there's like this beautiful

tension throughout the whole service. What do you see in young women who are discerning becoming a religious? Maybe some of the pitfalls they fall into, some things that they need to be, I don't know, maybe the way they discern is problematic. Like, for example, the reason I ask that is I talk to young men who are discerning the priesthood, and it seems like they're only discerning, and that's all they do, and there's never a decision made.

Or speaking for myself, I remember when I was discerning the priesthood, I would do and there's never a decision made or speaking for myself i remember when i was discerning the priesthood i would sort of a priest hop as it were like i would get super into this one religious order and then i'd check out this other one and i would never really kind of make a decision um what are you seeing as you chat with young women um that is one of the things um exactly what you just described but i would say the the piece of advice speak to that more though i will yeah yeah so so i do i see the the people who are just like they're kind of there seems to be this paralysis of not wanting to take the next step of not wanting to maybe visit the monastery or of not wanting to do an extended visit or not wanting to do an observership which is what we call the the first stage of kind of serious discernment in our monastery where you come for a three to six week visit, or they're not willing

to take the step to enter or something like that. But the piece of advice that I usually give to people, and this is something that really Father Michael, again, my spiritual father, that he helped me along with because I was struggling with struggling with that that kind of paralyzing fear uh because we're just we're just so afraid of commitment in our society and i think it's because we're so surrounded by broken commitment that we we don't even trust in ourselves to be able to commit yep that makes sense and and we see how much the broken commitments damage and and we even subconsciously just don't want to cause that damage. And, you know, so the advice that I usually give to people is don't be afraid to take this step because, and there is one other big thing that I want to talk about, but don't

be afraid to take this step because to come visit the monastery is not a commitment to be there forever. To come on observership is not a commitment to be there forever. To come on observership is not a commitment to be there forever. We've had multiple people come on observership who then didn't enter the monastery. And we are friends with them and we love them. One of them in particular, I'm very close, two actually, I'm very close with still. And then to enter the monastery is not a commitment to be a nun for the rest of your life. You know, it's not even a commitment to be a nun.

It's not a commitment to being tortured. You know, it's like it's all parts of the discernment. And what I tell people is if you're under the guidance, absolutely under the guidance of a spiritual director and under the guidance of the superior of the community and the community itself, which is the other thing I'm going to talk about in a second. If you're wondering, if you're feeling any pull towards this, like try it. Because if this is something I really needed to hear myself, if I go to the monastery for six months or a year, in fact, even if at this point I discerned out, I will not feel like it was wasted time. And I think that can especially be a temptation for women because we have biological clocks.

And it's like, if I'm supposed to get married, I don't want to waste time discerning a monastic life when I really should find my husband ASAP so that we can start having kids. And which by the way, is just like a very utilitarian way of looking at marriage. But anyways, there is, if you go to the monastery

and you end up after two years discerning out, you are going to be so much better of a wife and so much better of a mother for having spent that two years learning how to pray, learning how to live in community, learning how to love the Lord above all else. Because if you're married, you still need to love the Lord above your husband

and above your children. And it's just like, it's just the time there is so formative that it's not wasted time. And so I think that's probably one of the biggest fears for people is they don't want to pursue this and waste their time. And so that's a fear that I try to allay. But the other thing that I'll say that I think is very prevalent in our society is people

think that their discernment is just that. It's their discernment. And so if I think I'm called to the monastery, then I'm called to the monastery. And that's just not all encompassing because it's a discernment on the part of the community. It's a very much. And you have no interest in forcing people who will be bad nuns in against that would just make your life more miserable. Exactly. Yeah. And their life and their life. Yeah.

It's like and that's something that honestly um i mean our community has problems all communities have problems just like every family has problems but one of the things that i most appreciate about our community about mother theodora the hegemony is that she she has she's never from the beginning she's never been concerned about the numbers. Right. So for her, it's never been like, she's never chased after anyone. Um, she's never pressured anyone. In fact, she like probably should pressure me a little bit more.

Um, but, but maybe she was right because God got me there. But, um, you know, she's just very much like God's will. I want God's will because we all know at our monastery that if,

if we don't want God's will, we're not going to be happier for it. The discerner is not going to be happier for it. It's a lose-lose. Yeah. Like, at the end of my observership, again, that three to six week visit, everyone else, I think, everyone else who's entered the monastery, either during their observership or immediately after applied to the monastery. I didn't for like a year or something like that because I, at the end of my observership, I was like, I'm not ready. And I don't think I can, I probably talked about this a little bit last time,

but I don't think I can, I can't imagine a happy and holy marriage for myself. And I don't want to do this if I think it's the only way I can be holy. I want to do it if I think it's the way God wants me to be holy. And, um, but not if I think it's the only way I can be holy because that's not. Do you know, I had the exact opposite experience when I was living in Brisbane, I couldn't imagine myself as a successful husband and father in everything that entailed. And it was my men's group at the time who pointed that out. So, I was very much discerning. So, the friars of renewal and very much excited about that and looking into that. I just thought like every aspect of fatherhood and husbandhood, you know, I'd be a bad father, a bad provider, a bad lover, like everything I would suck at. I was convinced

of that. And it was not a good reason to become a priest. Right. And so, that's where I felt at the end of my observorship. I was convinced of that. And it was not a good reason to become a priest. Right. And so that's where I felt at the end of my observorship. I was like, I can't imagine a happy and holy marriage for myself. And so I was like, if I enter the monastery right now, it's going to be because I'm running away from an unholy marriage. And we should not discern things because we're running away from another good. It should be because we feel we're called to a greater good or a different good. And so at the end of my observership, I tell mother, I don't think I can apply right now. I think I need to further discern marriage. And she was like, great, go do that. Date if you need to and whatever you need to do. And I'm like, okay. So I leave, I dated a guy. Um, and, um, and then eventually, obviously we broke up, we did break up. And, uh, so, um, so yeah, mother has just been, you know, she's just like, go, you know, God's will be done. And, and father Michael also

was very supportive. You know, he's like, uh, whatever God wants. And, um, and she just, she has this great trust and, and confidence in,, like, if God wants this, it'll happen. I'm also not sure what the incentive would be for the mother or the father of a particular monastery to wish to grow unnecessarily. I don't even know what the advantage in that would be. Like, having someone come and live with you who ought not to be there would be like me just saying hey you want to come live with my family and just you can have a spare room and just live with us forever yeah why would i do that you know unless they felt called to it and we discerned it as well right i would i would imagine i i obviously don't have any first-hand experience of that because this is my only community and like i said that's not a struggle in our particular

community but i would imagine um part of it is just even in the monastery um we get attitudes of the world that just seep in and and one of those attitudes is like more nuns looks better yeah um and and so so i would imagine i i hope that this is the case that superiors who do that superiors who who press for more nun nuns or who press for certain people to enter who probably don't have a call to monasticism, I would hope that they're doing it not because they see they don't have a call and are pressing it anyways. I would hope they're doing it because they want these numbers. And so they've kind of like self-deceived into thinking this person has a call.

You know, it's more like they maybe get the intuition that this person isn't supposed to be here, but they kind of like push that aside and convince themselves. So I would hope that when they do it, they've convinced themselves this person has a call. When I was discerning the priesthood back when I was 17 in Australia, it did feel like, at least to me, and maybe I was misreading it, but it felt like some of the religious orders I had contacted were like, please, God, save our dying community. And that's not attractive. Exactly. It'd be like me meeting an old woman who's like, please let me have children. I'm like 40 and this can't go on forever. Please marry me. Like, ah, first of all, you're 23 years older than me, which is weird. So. You also just, to all your listeners, called 40-year-old women old. I know. Well, older than me.

I was 17 at the time. That's why I said 24 years old, 23, 24 years old. Yeah, like it's just not attractive, like to be begged into something. It's not attractive in religious life. It's not attractive in kind of romantic life. But the point, I think just quickly, the point you were making is so important that people realize. It's like you might discern this, but you're not the only one in this process absolutely you have other beautiful holy women who are discerning as well and so you can also trust in that yes absolutely so

yeah so it's like if you if you um yeah you know it's just not like that's all i have to say when you when you join the monastery because i when i stayed with those fathers up in wisconsin my initial thought was i'm gonna like pray with them the whole time like every time they pray i'm gonna do it no it's like eight hours that's ridiculous overboard yeah at our monastery from the day you enter you attend all the same prayer way too much i'm just joking i'm only being a smarter a smart aleck uh see how that noise slipped um but yeah like so i would do like an hour in the morning hour in the evening but i was like i can't do eight hours of this stuff was there how did you drive me crazy well i'm gonna keep doing it because this is for your sanctification

sister um and the sanctification of everyone who's listening that's right um yeah so was there any kind of um did you get you had to get used to it kind of thing or um because i mean tell people how how much you pray as as a community sure so we pray um we have we have spousal prayers in the morning um which is what we call uh because at our monastery the the spousal relationship is is so significant that's what we call our cell rule which is the rule of prayer that's given to you by your spiritual mother or spiritual father that you pray in your cell. And sometimes we'll like pray outside or whatever.

But anyways, so that's an hour, maybe an hour and a half. Do you mind if I ask what that consists of? Is that very specific to each individual? It's very specific to each individual, but it's typically some combination of silence,esus prayer scripture maybe spiritual reading that's really cool yeah and so so we have that in the individually um outside of the great fast we then have matins or morning prayer um starting with the jesus prayer 15 minutes of that um that's about an hour and a half in the morning and then we have another from 6 30 to 8 and then at noon

we have uh we have noon we pray one of the hours first third sixth or ninth and that lasts about 30 minutes um and then we have vespers or evening prayer from 445 until about 545 or six. And then we have Compline or night prayer from nine to nine 30. And, um, so those are the times of communal prayer. Uh, and then we also have, like I mentioned earlier, we have Pustinia mornings on Fridays until noon and that's time of just prayer and silence. But, um, and then during Lent, it's's all of those things but they're all just longer um but so we have during during lent to the great fast it's probably another

hour hour and a half so it didn't take you much getting used to um not so much i don't i don't want to sound like i can imagine you're going with enthusiasm right you want to fully commit to this life yeah and also i um you know we each have different draws to the monastery and um like just just naturally we each have different calls on our heart and and i really really i love liturgical prayer so that was one of the draws for me so there are other things that were a lot harder for me to transition to but the liturgical prayer was not so hard like i always wanted more of that at our parish and um yeah so i really like that i mean don't get me wrong there are

certainly days that i'm like i'm tired i don't want to get up and go to matt and uh it mostly happens with complin like by the end of the day i'm just done and i tired. I don't want to get up and go to Mattins. Uh, it mostly happens with Compline. Like by the end of the day, I'm just done. And I'm like, I don't want to pray to Compline. I don't want to pray tonight. Um, what do you do when you, do you ever travel on your own? Probably to see your folks. Yeah. For home visit and retreat to that structure. We have different, um, we have kind of an abbreviated, no, definitely not that structure, but we have abbreviated. We basically more or less, we pray morning prayer and evening prayer mountains and vespers, but abbreviated forms.

And then also our spousal prayers are several. Awesome. Well, here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a quick break. Great. When we come back, I want to ask you about your excellent podcast with father Michael, what God is not.

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40 seconds. 40 seconds. Why did we have to do that extra two-minute countdown? Because I had to go to the bathroom. You know that. Why would you ask me that? You're not even the girl because I want to do it there. It's the shaming.

I told you I'm really good at shaming. All right, sister. But so, before we get to these questions, I wanted to ask you about your What God Is Not podcast, which I think you've been doing for over a year now. Yeah. And it has one of the greatest- Logos? Logos. Thanks.

Yeah. So, it's called What God Is Not because it's a reference to what's called apophatic theology uh which you're familiar with so in the in the east um there's this emphasis on apophatic theology which is is means that we're talking about um what is not so we say god is ineffable he's inconceivable he's all of the he's's sinless. He's all of these things that he's not. And the reason we do this is because the other way of speaking is called cataphatic theology, talking about what God is. So scientists would be familiar with this if you think about cations and anions. And so the reason we have the emphasis on talking about what god is not is because our language is

so limited that anytime we say something that he is there's something lacking right just like whenever we make any sort of analogy uh there's always an analogy specifically referring to god there's there's always some way in which it fails yeah there's always a dissimilarity this is this is thomas aquinas oh it's gonna be a negativa i don't even know i don't know if i would you know you would listen i don't know if i've ever shared with you my one experience of of thomas aquinas you know i say i don't like thomas aquinas i really love the hillbilly thomas um yeah if there are any hillbilly thomas listening if the summa theologiae is anything like it's not um so uh so anyways the summa actually thise is anything like all the other times, it's not. So, so anyways, the Summa, actually, this is my Thomas Aquinas story. I, he helped me to realize what a good heretic I'd be.

So, so one of the, one of the sisters, I've never, I had never read Aquinas because I was always just like, I have no background in philosophy or theology. My background is in engineering physics and so i'm like i he's just way over my head i wouldn't be able to understand anything and then one day one of the sisters she's taking a class and so she's reading from the summa and she's like she's like listen to this part and she reads it out loud and i'm listening and i'm like i get it i totally get it like i actually understand it's not over my head and i'm like i'm totally that's on point i get it and she was get it. Like, I actually understand. It's not over my head. And I'm like, I'm totally, that's on point.

I get it. And she was like, that's the heresy that he's refuting. And I'm like, oh, that's awkward. That's so funny. So I would surely just accidentally be a heretic. You can't accidentally be a heretic. I would accidentally proclaim heresy. You can be a material heretic. Okay.

Most of us, probably all Christians are. Formal heresy is when you. But I just mean that like I could say heresy without being a heretic. Because you're only a heretic if you're like doing it intentionally. Yeah, no, absolutely. I do it in most episodes. I'm committing heresy quite regularly. Awesome.

In fact, I think there was one time I did a Pints with Aquinas episode and I referred to the two persons of Christ or something like that. That's nothing. But I said it with such like of Christ or something like that. That's nothing. And, uh, but I said it was such like, you know, confidence, confidence that people were like,

crap, I guess I had no idea. And then, so it was cool. So in the next episode, I was like, heresy alert, heresy alert,

speaking about humility. Yeah, that was good. Yeah. No, what, what God is not. So,

yeah, what God is not. So it's, it's a podcast that i do with um with my spiritual father father michael lachlan and uh you know one of the one of the comments that we got so so it's a very conversational podcast just like just like what we're doing right now you know um well not so it's not like interview form but it's just uh we take turns picking topics and it's uh he's he's an eastern catholic priest and so it's um a byzantine

podcast but um so there's like that that byzantine spirituality there the emphasis on the mystery but um most of our listeners are roman catholic but the it's it's beautiful because there's so much in it that like people are just seeing a glimpse into our relationship as spiritual father and spiritual daughter and that's one of the things that i've that we've gotten the most positive feedback about is people are like it's so beautiful to see this celibate love yeah and it's this chaste love and to be able to experience that and and witness that and um someone recently pointed out they were like you know what's so great about your podcast is it's the only podcast i know of this is about your podcast is it's the only podcast I know of.

This is what the person said. It's the only podcast I know of, Catholic podcast, that's a man and a woman who aren't married. Interesting. And I'm like, oh. Like there are priests who have podcasts together. There are religious women, religious men who have podcasts. Husband and wife. Husband and wife.

Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. And so it's just been it's been a really beautiful experience so and we just we talk about a wide variety of things i mean father michael did a whole a whole series on the divine liturgy um it was like a seven part series or something like that i joked that it was never going to end it was going to be like part 12a the great amen and um you hear you snoring in the background seriously and, so anyways, he actually, people really liked that,

that series though. So he did a whole series on, on the divine liturgy. Um, but we've talked about, um, uh, I don't know. I did,

I did an episode on, um, called no safety net that, which, which was just about, um, loving the Lord singleheartedly and, and just really going all in and things like that.

Um, and yeah, it's, it's a great thing. Wherever podcasts are found, right? Spotify, iTunes, What God Is Not. Yeah, all of the things. Yeah, it's called What God Is Not and it's on all the major Spotify, Apple podcasts. We have a YouTube channel. Oh, sweet.

Do you guys video it as well? We don't do video right now. So it's just the, whatever the little squiggly lines. You know what I'm talking about? I think I know what you mean, like for the audio. Yes. Yeah. um we don't do video right now so it's just the whatever the little squiggly lines you know i'm talking about i think what you mean like for the audio yes yeah yeah all right we have we have questions from patrons big thanks to everybody who supports pines for the coinus uh before we get into that we have uh christopher west in chat saying christopher west is in the chat that's amazing him um love you christopher hi Hi, Christopher. We love you.

Is that it? He didn't have a question. He was just like, what's up? All right. So this is funny because this patron's name is Your Boy EB. Hey, my boy. No idea. He says, one thing I have come to see is that Roman Catholics sometimes think Byzantine Catholics are weird, not wrong, and have weird traditions and theology that are foreign to them.

What are some theology or traditions of the Byzantine church? Do you, or right, we can do the distinction if you want. Do you think Roman Catholics have misunderstandings about that they should understand and why you believe and do such traditions and theology? God bless you, Sister Natalia. Yeah. That's just like opening it up like opening up the space for me to just clarify these things that people might that's great maybe choose one or two yeah sure um this is probably a tongue well one of the greatest thing one of the biggest things that i

already touched on um is that people get some some people get really upset that praying the rosary is not an eastern tradition and and i say it's not an eastern tradition i know plenty of byzantine catholics who pray the rosary and find great fruit in that, and that's beautiful. But it's not, like, a tradition that developed in the East because—but we do have, like I said, lots of other devotions to the Theotokos. You have something similar to it, though. You have something similar to the rosary. I forget the Eastern Saint's name, but it's the mary theotokos yeah and there's 150 yeah um the rejoice oh virgin i think is the um but we have we have this one of my one of my favorite services is um an occathist um which

occathist just means without sitting yeah um so it just means you stand the whole time. So the, the Ocathist to the mother of God, we have Ocathists, we have these services without sitting to, to various saints and stuff, but the Ocathist to the mother of God is this beautiful, beautiful service. And the whole thing is just singing about different images of Mary.

So. I love it so freaking much. Yeah. I would make my kids like, we'd be like, dad's going to do the akathist. And they kind of get excited because I would let them like lay on the couch and put blankets over them. And then daddy would chant and swing incense around for like half hour.

One of my favorite lines from it is we talk about the Theotokos, which means God bearer. That's what we call Mary. Where maidenhood meets motherhood. That's one of my favorite lines from it. But we talk about about mary being um the the bush that burned but was not consumed and um you know we have all these images from her um of her from from the old testament of like the ark and and um the mountain and uh out of which the stone was hewn and and things like that um we we gotta look it up at

some point and we're gonna read through some of them because it's like a grade poetry it's amazing um so that's that's one of them is that we don't pray the rosary but we do have lots of other um devotions to the theotokos and and in the in the liturgy we like basically we almost never have hymns without ending them with something to marry like at vespers we have this set of hymns called theers, we have this set of hymns called the Stachira and this set of hymns called the Apostica. And at the end of them, we always have some hymn to the Theotokos. So we love Mary very much. That would be one thing you'd want to clarify to people.

Just because we don't have your exact same devotions doesn't mean we don't have other devotions. Right. And one of the other things that's not a tradition in the east is uh adoration so that's something that that really can can kind of uh stir up some distrust from from roman catholics uh but what i'll say is um something that one of the other nuns pointed out that i found very very beautiful it like reveals um the profound ways in which god works in the church um like in different ways and different traditions at different times and it's that um part to my understanding, part of the reason adoration developed in the West, it was a response to people doubting the true presence in the Eucharist.

And like there was this these heresies that were developing, right, where people weren't believing in the true presence in the Eucharist. And that's when adoration started becoming a thing. And and and that same heresy never really developed in the east and that's not because we're like these awesome people who never have heresy but we had different heresies and so um the big heresy matt what's the big heresy in the east the uh icons being banned yeah iconoclasm yeah so this was people thinking that so so in the east. The icons being banned. Yeah, iconoclasm. Yeah. So this was people thinking that. So in the East, we have lots and lots of icons, and we kiss them all the time.

And the, I was just thinking of a story from the Holy Land, but it's fine. In the East, so the big heresy was that people started believing that these icons, that to kiss them was actually idol worship. That's funny. Weird, it's how to get in Protestantism, which is probably when you saw like a full-throated response from the West. So, right. And so in the East, one of the, this is the thing that this, one of the other sisters in the monastery noticed that I think is really profound.

One of the miracles that you hear about noticed that i think is really profound um one of the miracles that you hear about happening in the west is eucharistic miracles right like hosts that um that bleed right and things like that um i've never heard well anyways so so that's like one of the big miracles that happens in the west in the the East, the miracles that you hear about are weeping icons, miraculous icons. So it's like God speaks to the wounds of each side of the church, each person in the church in like very distinct ways. So anyways, we didn't have that particular heresy

and adoration didn't develop in the East, but that's not because we don't believe in the worship um of the eucharist or or in the eucharist itself for the true presence but um it's just not a tradition that developed so do you what do you think i mean do you enjoy when you get to go to say like a catholic western catholic conference and they have adoration do you kind of appreciate it as something somewhat exotic that you get to partake in um sure i mean when i'm yeah when i'm when i'm at when i'm in adoration um i um i mean i typically just pray with my eyes closed i don't i don't typically like gaze upon the host or something well so why can't you just appreciate it and see this bloody gorgeous without it having to be something you naturally just like i mean western catholics see the chotki right or they see the icons they're like oh my

gosh this is amazing yeah and they can recognize it as part of the eastern heritage without having to necessarily adopt it or to insist that their particular church is sure well so so but but what i'm saying is in adoration like i can appreciate that we're here in the presence of the lord in his very real presence um and i can enter into that more fully um by closing in my closing my eyes and resting in his presence i don't need to gaze upon um like to gaze upon the eucharist does not remind me of his presence any more than simply closing my eyes and resting in the presence. Cool. I could keep asking questions, but I'm afraid it would seem combative.

So you tell me if you want me to or not. I mean, you can. I don't care. I'm not afraid of it. Yeah. It's stupid. I'm not afraid of you. But yeah, I don't know.

I don't like what you just said that's fine i don't like it so let me finish um i i get i i get i i think i see what you're saying i mean there's there's something particular to how one chooses to pray and someone might even see gazing upon the monstrance and all this is somewhat distracting and that's fine but it just seems to me like if this is truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ, without having to feel the need to adopt this practice, why not see it as something incredibly beautiful and praiseworthy and then choose to gaze upon the Eucharist?

Why? Is it just a particular preference that you have? Or do you think it's because you're an eastern catholic you're like i don't really get it so i'm going to shut my eyes and it's i may as well be before an icon um yeah i think it's i think it's probably a particular preference but i i think it's also um i i think it's also is just coming from the Eastern spirituality of, you know, like how we were talking earlier about I can more easily read and accept the teachings of some of the desert fathers because I'm so immersed in the spirituality of like, we're constantly singing these hymns at Vespers and Matins. That's putting me in the right context to read them. And, and, um, and in the same way, like I'm not immersed in the spirituality that's

putting me in the context for gazing upon the host. Um, I feel, I feel nothing. I feel absolutely nothing, nothing wrong wrong no hesitation with other people gazing upon the Eucharist so it's not like I'm sitting there and I'm like why are they even like looking at it you know it's just like there's there's nothing that I don't find that it adds to my experience of the presence of the Lord to look at the host. Let me see if I can come up with an analogy which might help us understand this. Would it be like a Western Catholic coming to your profession, say, and they see people venerating the icons, and to them it kind of looks a bit weird.

Their skin kind of looks green, their eyes and nose look strange. I'm really glad people are into it. This isn't helping me pray right now. Yeah. Is it kind of looks green. Their eyes and nose look strange. I'm really glad people are into it. I just, this is not how I'm, this isn't helping me pray right now. Yeah. Is it kind of like that? It's like I see the merit in it. It's just not part of my. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that it's a, I think that it's a beautiful tradition. It's just not the tradition that I'm immersed in. Yeah. And so it's, it's might be harder for me to enter into. So I can appreciate that tradition while entering into my own tradition. Yep. Okay. That's good.

Nathan Alex says, Hi, sister. Can you talk about why monasticism is so heavily emphasized in the East? And any advice on single lay people trying to incorporate more monastic habits between singleness and marriage? habits between singleness and marriage so um one uh one thing i'll say is that like as to why it's so emphasized in the east is um because it's held up as the life of perfection. So we're all striving for perfection, for holiness. And so this is the life that we hold up as the ideal of that. Because it's the life of, like we talked about earlier, it's the life of repentance and of striving for that. But it's also called the monastic life. Like at the end of the service of a monastic profession, each person goes up to venerate the hand cross of the newly professed nun.

And they venerate the hand cross and they say, what is your name, mother? And you answer, Mother Natalia. And they say, may you be saved in the angelic ranks. Which one of the, this is actually very, very cool. So one of the views in Eastern Christianity, I think I read this in Mountain of Silence by Kiriakis Markides. Have you read this book? I've read some of it.

So the pseudo Father Maximus, that's not his real name is what I mean. But in the book, he's called Father Maximus. He's a real monk. They just use a pseudonym. But he's talking about how there's this view in the book, he's called Father Maximus. He's a real monk. They just use a pseudonym. But he's talking about how there's this view in the East that the angels who fell from heaven, this is not dogma. This is just one of the theories. The angels who fell from heaven were of one rank of angels because we have different ranks of angels, right?

There's the cherubim, the seraphim, the archangel, so on and so forth. And that the monastics are called to replace that rank of angels. I love that. And it's so beautiful. And I don't mean that to be very, very clear. I don't mean that in the sense of when we die, we are angels, because that is, as we were talking of earlier, heresy. We don't become pure spirit. You we have um body and soul in heaven just like but um there's actually there's something um in i don't remember what this is but i remember marking something in the ladder of divine ascent that's about monasticism um i marked it as monasticism for the married life um so i'm gonna read it monasticism for the married life. So I'm going to read it. Monasticism for those who are married.

I have no recollection of what it says. Disclaimer. Really? So how do you know where it is? Did you want to go on? I don't even know where it is. I just have a memory of, like I had written in the margin. You have lovely handwriting.

Thank you. I had written. Kylie, you didn't draw that, did you? I did. How is that so neat? Do you use a ruler? I didn't for that. did you? I did. How is that so neat? Do you use a ruler? I didn't for that. Do you have OCD?

Okay, personal questions. I do use, I didn't use a ruler for that. I just drew it. But I do use. Do you know what I'm talking about? A little bit. Just a little bit of OCD. But I do use my ruler when I underline.

That's incredible. Okay. All right, go. So this is from the Lad of divine ascent and this is one of those ones that um i would not necessarily just like read without guidance from someone because it's very intense and again it's like written especially because the first step is abandon the world i'm like screwed so um so i have no recollection of what the text actually just says i just wrote in the margin monasticism for those who are married some people living carelessly in the world have asked me we have wives and are beset with social cares and

how can we lead the solitary life i replied to them do all the good you can so this is the response of how do you live monasticism do all the good you can do not speak evil of anyone do not steal from anyone do not lie to anyone do not be arrogant towards anyone do not hate anyone do not be absent from the divine services be compassionate to the needy do not offend anyone do not wreck another man's domestic happiness and be content with what your own wives can give you if you behave in this way you will not be far from the kingdom of heaven that is beautiful. Right.

And this is coming from, I want to print that and put it on my bedroom wall. This is coming from Clemicus, who like, as you read this, you just think that he thinks that everyone in the world has to be a monk or they can't go to heaven. Right.

And this is a clear statement of like, he says, no, like you do these things and like, you're going to be okay. That's beautiful. But I would also just repeat what I said earlier of, I would recommend you go on our monastery's website,

christthebridegroom.org, and look at the link to our Typicon, our rule of life. And really, don't just read it, but pray with it. Like, when I came on my observership at the monastery, and I prayed with the Typicon each day, like really brought each section to prayer, my heart was burning. Like it's a beautiful, beautiful document.

And so pray with that and ask the Lord, like don't just jump to your own extreme conclusions. Don't just make your own decisions, but really ask the Lord, Lord, in what ways can I apply this to my family? How are you calling me to live a monasticism within my family and to what extent? Because you also have to consider, you have to consider your spouse and your kids,

you know, like you can't just be imposing things on them that are going to make them miserable. And so that's the other thing I would do is I would encourage you to like, maybe start as a family learning more about monasticism and discern together. Like don't just force these things on your family. To that point, there is a French priest named Jacques Philippe. He wrote a little book called Searching for a Maintaining Peace. Familiar?

Yes. Fantastic. We love him very much at our monastery. One of the things he says that often after our conversion, the problem isn't that we want the wrong thing. At this point, we want the right thing, say the sanctification of our families. He said the problem for us now is we want the right thing in the wrong way. And I try to remember that as I rally my kids together to pray the rosary. I have a melancholic disposition and I think by nature tend to be more idealistic

and find myself somewhat defeated when I think we're not reaching that ideal as a family. And in the beginning, this actually caused me quite a lot of frustration because my kids weren't like levitating or kneeling on glass like I demanded they do, broken glass. Why is the three-year-old not able to just sit in silence for 27 minutes? Exactly. So, but what I found now is if I seriously lower my expectations, we can pray the Holy Rosary every night together. You know, like if I'm okay that my daughter's like not even fingering the beads and is just kind of coloring on something or doesn't seem to be paying attention at all.

But if I am, and I can do it with great charity and great gentleness and great joy, like a sort of joy, like kind of even funny, even this funny moments when parents and kids get together to pray for 20 minutes, you know, then that's beautiful. That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful to have a family get together and pray imperfectly, but to pray. And I think that there's also something very empowering about allowing your spouse, but especially your children, to enter into that discernment, like I was saying. You know, like, you know, I mean, guide the discernment as particularly, you know, if there's a father figure, like the man as the spiritual head of the household, like guide that discernment for them. Um, but allow them to be part of that,

you know, like share with them what monasticism is or, or like read this paragraph on your own of the typical and, and try to like put it into words that your child can understand and then talk with them about it and be like, um, like Nate, how do you think that we can apply this as a family like what's one thing that

you think that we could do and like guide them in that because don't let them pick something extreme because then they're going to be discouraged when it fails but if they can pick the same reason i shouldn't choose something that's extreme right because i'll end up discouraged right but if they if they if if you're able to guide them to like something that's actually doable for your family then i think that they'll be more able and willing to do that if they're the ones who like came up with this idea you know yeah that's nice yeah that's nice total side note i had a priest come up to me last night i was at a wedding and i went to the reception afterwards this priest comes out to me he's like your son amazing confession i had with him i cannot tell you what he said because of internal forum.

That's my American accent. But, yeah, my son, my six-year-old Superman Peter, who, of course, received chrismation. I've not met him. He's already stolen my heart. Oh, yeah. And he said, like, it was outstanding. I'm like, oh, my God, that's so cool.

So just thought I'd brag on my son there yeah humble brag uh patron amazing i love you thank you claire welton says sister natalia as a sister who i assume took a vow of poverty what have you learned about detachment from earthly things and what advice do you have for lay people who still have to live in the world yet are also called to detachment? That's a really good question. Did you take a vow of poverty? We don't technically take vows at all in the East, but we do.

At the life profession, the bishop asks, do you promise to live this life of poverty? And I say yes, with God's help. So, you know, what's interesting is I don't find, I'm sure this is different for everybody, but I would say that one of the things that you need to do is really, again, bring to prayer because I don't know your interior life, Claire, but bring to prayer because i don't i don't know your interior life um claire but but but bring to prayer the question for the lord of where do my attachments lie because i think that's the

first step of of figuring um figuring out how to be detached because um i don't i don't really struggle with with material attachment and and that's not because of any virtue on my part. It's because my attachments lie in other places. So most particularly, I'm really attached to relationships. And one of the things that I was broken of and not broken of totally, still being broken of in coming to the monastery was the realization that I'm attached to my time, you know, which is one of the beauties of monasticism is you very quickly realize that

your time is not your time. You know, I did a whole episode on our podcast called Whose Time Is It Anyway? It's a very clever title. I know you can acknowledge the cleverness. Anyway, it's a very clever title. I know. Yeah. I acknowledge the cleverness. Thank you. Um, and the, so, so I say you very quickly realize as a monastic that your time is not your own.

And I say that that's a gift. And the reason it's a gift is because the truth of it is in the world, your time is also not your own, but it's easier to fool yourself into thinking it is, you know, like you can have more control over your time. So you can think that it's your time um but really all time is is is god's time that that he gives to us to use in certain ways and so the gift as a monastic is you figure that out real quick um but but anyway so my attachments relationships time um the monastery is kind of the monastic life is kind of built to break those attachments. In the world, you have a little bit more of, you have to take the responsibility upon yourself.

Just have kids. They'll damage every good thing you've wanted to maintain. Right. So I would say pay attention. So again, prayerfully discern that, but also pay attention to which things upset you. You know, like if you're in the middle of something and someone suddenly knocks on the door and you're like pretty angry about it

or frustrated or whatever, maybe you're attached to your own time or you're attached to your productivity or you're attached to, so like pay attention to the movements. That movement really enlightening because we often think of what are you attached to is immediately physical objects right um and so once you've realized the attachment i would say just just um pray about again ask the lord don't make these decisions on your own but but ways um to really um tangibly combat those things um and in the sense of if if you do realize you're attached to your own time really really try

to jump at the opportunities when someone else needs something you know like if you're at the office and you're working on something and you notice that someone is like flustered by the things they're trying to do, you can in all your right as an employee, you can just stay focused on your work. But if you know that you're attached to your own time and you're attached to your productivity, maybe stop your work and go offer to help this other person or something like that. So try to try to discern the ways to like actively combat those attachments. Yeah, because we can yeah, we can get attached to things we perceive to be good and all things being equal, they are. Like a good schedule. Like I need a good schedule so I can be more efficient

and get done what I have to get done. But yeah, you can be attached to that as well. I had to drop my kids off today at school and the gas tank was on empty and I was frustrated about that because I had to go fill it up, which meant I had to spend another 10, 15 minutes in the car. And I was conscious of that at the time. Like, I'm getting frustrated. Interesting. Yeah. We'll look at that later, Jesus. Derek Cummins, and I've got to say, this- I know him. Do you? Derek's amazing.

I bet you do know him. Here's why. Here's what's cool about Derek. He probably doesn't mind that I'm going to share the story, but if he does, sorry. How do I know him? Derek was a Protestant youth pastor who left protestantism because he he believed it to be false or at least not entirely true this is he you were talking about earlier i don't know but he's now has been discerning between eastern catholicism and orthodoxy okay and i believe he's in an orthodox church beautiful guy beautiful guy i would never say that to his face um or you know i think you just did ah he says this have you had many experiences with eastern orthodoxy such as clergy laity monastics that have have been positive. That's interesting.

Or maybe because he's saying because you're an Eastern Catholic. Yes. Okay. As one who is living in the Eastern Christian tradition, have they accepted you as one of them? What's that been like for you, first of all? So I'm going to, I'll answer the question of have I had many that have been positive, and the answer is yes.

So you don't hang out with a lot of youtube orthodox people i mean i didn't say that i've not had many that have been negative um but i have had many also that have been positive um one example of this just from yesterday um we got an rsvp from um we have five coptic orthodox nuns coming to the life profession. There's this community of Coptic Orthodox nuns that we've spent some time with on a few occasions, and they're just so beautiful. And actually their priest and his wife are probably also coming to the profession. So seven Coptic Orthodox.

One of my most beautiful experiences of this was Mother and I, Mother Theodora and I went to another state for their, I think, 50th anniversary of their parish and the celebration, a Byzantine Catholic parish. And there at the reception, we meet these two Orthodox priests who have formed this really good relationship with the Byzantine parish. And so they're there and they, you know, they're talking with mother and I, and they're like, please come, come to our, come to our liturgy tomorrow. This, this reception was on a Saturday night. They had had liturgy at the Byzantine parish before the reception. And so that was the Sunday obligation for us because to go to an orthodox liturgy would not fulfill our sunday obligation so we're like we've already been to liturgy like we can go to the orthodox church tomorrow so we go to their parish and these and and the parish

is so welcoming and this is one of the most beautiful things we um typically there are exceptions to this but typically as a a Catholic Roman or Byzantine, you aren't able to receive communion in an Orthodox parish. Um, again, there are exceptions, but, but typically, so mother and I, um, are in the front pew at this parish and the, um, if you've never been to a Byzantine liturgy, what happens with the communion bread, it's leavened bread that's consecrated into the body of Christ. And then it's placed inside the chalice with the blood. But it's the center part of the loaf that becomes the body of Christ. So the edges of the loaf are first cut off.

And so they're blessed, but they don't become the body of Christ. And then usually it's called the antiteron at least in the the slavic word and then so after liturgy those those pieces of the edges the blessed bread are distributed and anyone catholic or otherwise or orthodox or otherwise or whatever can receive them because they're just blessed they're not the body of christ um so we're at this liturgy before communion the the priest um motions to one of the altar servers up in the sanctuary and the altar server comes over the priest whispers to him the altar server goes he gets this antiteron in the middle of the liturgy before communion um and then a little um a little glass with uh wine not the blood of christ just wine and the server brings

it out to the front pew up to mother and i and and allows us to have this antiteron this blessed this blessed bread and blessed wine not the body and blood of christ um so that we can receive this in some sort of communion with all those who are about to receive the body and blood of christ so he went as far as he thought he could to extend. And then, and then both of, and then the, that priest,

um, he's come to visit the monastery. Both priests actually have come to visit the monastery and, and things like that. And so, so I've, I've definitely had positive experiences. Um,

so yeah. And I, I really believe that that reunification of East and West, I really believe it's going to be through grassroots movements like that. It's going to be like those kinds of relationships are what really build the reunification. I spoke to the fathers at Holy Resurrection, and he said something that stuck with me.

He said, we see ourselves as, what part of the body of Christ are we? As scabs on the body of Christ. And what he meant by that, because that sounds kind of gross, is sign for deeper healing that needs to take place between East and West, which I thought was really a cool, beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, I like that a lot. One of the other nuns describes it, and I think this is also a very beautiful analogy, as it feels like as Byzantine Catholics, we can sometimes feel like the children of divorced parents. And so we have an allegiance to both, right? To Rome and to the traditions of the East. Exactly.

But one of the times that I really felt this chasm the most acutely and it was the most painfully was when we were in the Holy Land. We went to the Holy Land, we went to the Holy Sepulchre for an all-night vigil. And so if you're in the Holy Land, you can go to the Holy Sepulchre, you can sign up. They have, I think, maybe 15 slots per group of people or something like that. And it's like 15 slots for the Catholics, 15 for the Orthodox, 15 for the Armenians, and maybe that's it. And I'm just looking over to Mother Gabriella for confirmation. And so, but if you go, you have to stay in all night because they don't open the doors unless there happens to be a liturgy in the middle of the night. And then they don't, you're not allowed to sleep while you're in there. And so if you fall asleep while you're in there, they'll like come and wake you up.

And so some of us, some of us nuns signed up for this as well as a couple people from the group, pilgrimage group that we were with. And we signed up obviously for the Catholic section. So the time comes at the beginning of the night where those who are staying for the vigil are like put into the groups at the entrance of the sepulcher. And so they have the Catholics, the Orthodox and the Armenians. And there was like argument like they were like because we look Orthodox, but we are Catholic. And then and then we really really really felt this because when um that morning there was a catholic mass inside the tomb and so um you know i'm talking with one of the monks to ask him like can we go to this mass and he says no it's only for the catholics

and and i said we we are catholic and he said to go to the mass you have to be catholic and i said we are catholic and i said we're byzantine catholic and he was like and he looks at me and he says you can ask the priest and i was like great who's the priest and he was like he only speaks italian and spanish and he's like while smiling smug yeah what a jerk god forgive me and i'm like well i speak enough spanish that i can ask him and so like i go talk to the priest and I explain that we're Byzantinos and Byzantinas because we're Montas. And he's like, absolutely, you can come to Mass. And so, we're able to. That's a cool story because you often hear from Byzantine Catholics about sort of prejudice from Orthodox.

You don't often hear about it the other way around. So, that's an interesting example. A quick question, why aren't you Catholic? Why aren't you Orthodox? I want to get to asking, do you consider yourself, and that's the second part of this question, do you consider yourself Orthodox in union with Rome? But I want to ask you just kind of directly, why aren't you orthodox why are you catholic other than just sort of circumstantial in other words like i ran into the monastery they seem right

um i mean i mean very very simply it's um to to remain in communion with rome to to remain under the pope that's the simplest answer of it. Okay. And then his question is, do you consider yourself Orthodox in union with Rome or Catholic who prefers the Eastern expressions? That's a good question. You know, I don't really, I don't want to label it in any way because there's so many prejudices that go with the labels. So I'll just say that I, yeah. Yeah.

Maddie Herbert. I think I know Maddie. Maddie Hebert. Yeah, Hebert. I love her. She's in Steubenville now. Yes, she's lovely. I've met her a couple of times while here.

I met her out in LA a couple of times. She says, hello, sister Natalia. If you could give one piece of practical advice for women to start their vacation, what would it be? Praying for you and your soon-to-occur life profession. Now, you've spoken about this. Maddie's going to be there, too. Oh, terrific. You've spoken about this earlier in the show, but maybe you want to say something else. Practical advice for women to stay on their vocation

and would you be offended if I poured myself some whiskey? No, not at all. Okay, go. My practical advice would be, yeah, I think it would be the thing that I talked about before of don't be afraid to take steps because no step is is a total commitment um and it's not wasted time but but the other thing i would say is um is be in contact with communities that was that was really really important to me i the the first time that i wanted to discern um discern religious life i um i went on a self-imposed dating fast right and i'm

sure i talked about this a little bit last time but i um i wasn't like praying about my vocation i wasn't um visiting any communities i wasn't talking to any communities. I was simply not dating. So I was like not doing this really fun thing that I love to do. And I'm like filling that space with nothing, not with Jesus, not with nuns, not with anything. And that very quickly failed because I met a guy and I was like, I like men. I'm clearly not called to be a nun.

And so I just like ended the dating fast early and so so the second time i decided to discern um you know i was like i'm not gonna date until i actually visit a community and um and part of that's like i'm just a very experiential person and so i really need to experience things so so i would encourage you to actually be in touch with the community and go visit them. That's good. Yeah. Don't keep it theoretical. Exactly. Yeah.

It's almost like the equivalent of just take her out on a date. You're not committing. That kind of thing. Yeah. Here's a good question. It's about, well, it's about two, three sentences. So bear with me here. It comes from Becca Davis.

Thanks for being a patron, Becca. It's a great question. She says, I've heard Father Mike Schmitz say that an important component of discerning your vocation is what you want. I deeply want to be married and raise a family, but I don't know if that is a vestige of my Protestant upbringing or not. You've often spoken about your desire for a family in previous interviews. So how did you determine that what you wanted and what God wanted were not aligned? What would you say to someone trying to discern between the two? Excellent question.

Yeah, that's a fantastic question. I would say, I would say, first of all, can you read that first sentence again? The one that has Father Mike Schmitz in it? Yeah, she heard Father Mike Schmitz, at least she thinks it was Father Mike Schmitz, say that an important component of discerning your vocation is what you want. Got it. So I think something to notice there is that he says that it's an important component. It's not the only component.

And so I think that's really significant. Because God uses everything within us to direct us towards him, right? Like he gave us desires and we ourselves or the devil can pervert those desires or can misdirect those desires. But we have good desires within us from the Lord. And so that's why they can guide us in our discernment. But I would say the correction that I would give to Becca, it was Becca? Yes.

The correction I would give is that I wouldn't say that what I wanted was misaligned with what God wanted. What I would say is I didn't fully realize what I wanted. And also that I could choose to leave the monastery and to be married and still go to heaven. That was a really, really important realization for me on my pre-Tantra retreat before I got the habit in my new name. I had to realize that even though I fully believed God was calling me to this, I could say no, and he would still love me and, and I could still be holy. But it wouldn't make my life easier. And there would be other times that I would be asked to

say yes in different ways. And so, but, but i want to go back to that statement that i said of of i didn't fully realize what i wanted because i think that um when our desires or what we want are indicative in our discernment part of that is i think we need to to really prayerfully look at with a spiritual director um particularly if you're discerning vocation you need a spiritual director with our spiritual director and in prayer we need to look at the roots of those desires like what is it that i desire in marriage because maybe it's not marriage itself maybe it's these other things in marriage that god wants to fulfill through the monastic life. So I think that's part of it as well.

I realized, and I've said this before, but I think that one of the things that I've come back to again and again and again is a homily that Father Michael gave long before I entered the monastery, but he said he believes that we all have a natural call to marriage, but that some have a supernatural call to celibacy. So it's not that, the way I speak of it usually is that a call to celibacy, it's not like, I'm not going not gonna be able to articulate this well but it's not like it replaces the call to marriage it's that it um transcends it it transcends the call to marriage and so um so it's like the the ache that's there for marriage can make my monasticism more fruitful you know um and that's lovely yeah and so so so the last thing i would say um although if you think i haven't fully answered it matt please say so but the last thing i would say is that when you're looking at what

you want as you're in prayer and as you're having different experiences like either if you're if you're dating and discerning marriage with someone or you're at a you're at a monastery and you're discerning monasticism like as you're having these different experiences or as you're praying about these different things um pay attention to for for me the big the key indicators were joy and peace because these are fruits of the holy spirit and the joy and the peace can be really indicative of those deeper desires the ones that we're not necessarily seeing for ourselves because as humans we're just incredibly skilled at self-deception um yeah and and and the the the the recognition of the joy and the peace those need to come through building um through building a prayer life through really working on the relationship

with god because joy and peace are not the same as happiness and um and like a lack of external troubles or something like that. You know, it's a deeper thing than that. And this might sound a little surfacy, but it might be important to kind of circle this wagon again. It's not as if the way you know you're called to be a nun is if you have no desire for a sexual relationship or children truth and we talked about that last time and i don't know if you want to kind of point that out again because i mean i mean i'll just say yes yeah that's true right in fact if you had no desire for those things that might be a serious red flag correct i mean you said earlier that you were afraid to get married because you thought it could only be miserable. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's I mean, that's part of, you know, we have we have I would say most, if not all religious communities now, including our monastery, have discerners do a psychological evaluation before they answer. And part of that is to look for the things like, is this person going to try to kill me in my sleep? And part of that is to look for the things like, is this person going to try to kill me in my sleep? But part of it is also to to just be like, is this person discerning monasticism because they had this like horrible relationship with their dad? And so they're afraid of men or so, you know, it's like there there is some of that because because it's not for your good or for our good if you're entering into celibacy for the wrong reasons or for running away again. But nor is the requirement to join the monastery a lack of serious, well, a lack of woundedness. Right. As if to say, only if you've had a good relationship with your father and have a perfect view of marriage. Absolutely.

Yeah. To go back to like monasticism is meant to be a life of healing and a life of recovery and all of that. Like we're all very, very wounded. Um, but, but yeah, it's my, my desire, my desire for a husband really helps me. I've, I've seen the ways in which it has made my spousal relationship with Christ so much more fruitful and, and my desire for children. I have a deep desire for children and that's made it so much easier for me to open myself to motherhood, to all of the people that the Lord puts in my life, you know, and it gives me this great freedom to love so many more as my children than I would have been able to do.

One thing I love is when I get the occasional text from you out of the blue saying, the Lord just placed you and your family on my heart, and I want you to know I'm praying for you. I just feel so loved by that. Thank you. I can't wait to call you mother. Katerina Eramondi says, what sorts of insights can you give about relating to Christ as your bridegroom husband?

How has belonging to Christ the Bridegroom Monastery affected the way you relate to the Lord in your daily life and prayer? Yeah, that's a really good question as well. One thing I would say, if you've reached a certain level of maturity in your prayer, and I think you would realize this quickly if you tried it and it didn't go so well, is I would recommend praying with the Song of Songs. So reading that book that I mentioned earlier,

Cantata of Love. And I'm going to follow up and make sure you read it. Yeah, please do that. I'm going to buy it. I will. Immediately. Okay. Like right now.

Can you buy it? Yeah, Neil, can you get on that um so seriously the um the the um but we at our monastery um after complan this is only something our monastery does it's not at the um it's not part of the the service but after complan each night we pray um we chant antiphonally a chapter of the Song of Songs. And so that's something that's really helped me to enter into this spousal relationship with the Lord. But part of it also has been, and Christopher who commented the high to us earlier today, he talks a lot about this receptivity that we need to have with the Lord of

opening ourselves to him. And that's a way in which we're all called to be, to see Christ as bridegroom. So like, that's something I'll say is that we're all called to see Christ as bridegroom, men and women. And this isn't some, you know, this isn't, you know, we had someone like, we had someone comment on uh like our facebook page or something like that one time that was like these people are clearly not orthodox which we're not but like they're they this is not something against the orthodox this is something against this person who had a very like a misconception of orthodoxy because she's like they're clearly not orthodox because they keep talking about christ as their bridegroom and that's very this like new roman thing and i'm like we have

ancient eastern services about christ the bridegroom like we have during holy week we have a morning prayer um like byzantine catholic and orthodox so again this woman just didn't understand orthodoxy but um during during holy, the first few mornings, we have a service called Bridegroom Matins, in which we have the Bridegroom Tropar, which we sing at our monastery every night at Compline. And because it's like our patronal hymn. But yeah, it's like there's so much out there, so much writing on Christ the Bridegroom by East and West. And another great book is Wounded by Love by Porphyrius, Elder Porphyrius. And it's incredible.

I first encountered it from that Orthodox priest who I met at that, uh, anniversary reception, but, um, Wounded by Love is a really good book to read that, that helps you. Um, and again, it's written by, it's written by a monk and it really helps you to, to kind of, to just fall in love with, with Jesus. So. That's beautiful. I've never, ever had the problem of seeing Christ as my bridegroom. It's been a grace. I know many men who have.

No, it's been a grace for me. The Song of Songs is the book I'd like read to me as I'm dying. It is what speaks to me more than anything else. In fact, I'll sometimes swap out the words of the Jesus prayer with, I am my beloved and he is, I am my beloved and he is mine. We have at our monastery, that's in our typicon, is that as a nun in our monastery is dying, the other nuns keep vigil at her deathbed until she dies, chanting the Song of Songs and the Psalms. Sorry, the Song of Songs and the Psalms, yeah.

You know, just to bring this back to Aquinas again, he is said to have died at a Cistercian monastery on his way to a particular church council. And while he was dying, the Cistercians asked him to narrate a commentary on the Song of Songs. You may close that door. If you want. Is it too hot? I open that because it might be a bit hot. You can throw it shut. Go on, do it.

Now, we don't know if that's apocryphal or not, but we don't have the text. But it is interesting. I believe it was St. John of the Cross who asked that the Song of Songs be read as he was dying. It is interesting. I believe it was St. John of the Cross who asked that the Song of Songs be read as he was dying. It is just glorious. I'm just going to scandalize people and push my sleeves up a little bit because it's kind of hot. Yeah, I know. Yeah, beautiful stuff. This is lovely.

What else have we got here? Gary Myers, who's a patron. That's the Australian newscaster voice. Welcome back to the nightly news crazy covid laws in australia gary myers says sister natalia i have a friend who is a deacon in the episcopal church and has an issue with the perceived lack of women in leadership within the catholic church can you explain your view on the role of women in leadership within the church? Sure. Yeah. Um, I, I think that, um, I, I won't even speak to it very much. What I'll do is point you to someone who I think speaks

very beautifully of it, which is St. John Paul II. So, uh, you know, I had someone, I had someone reach out. Um, I had someone to reach out through, through my podcast who was, um, upset about something that I had said, um, about not being supportive of women priests. And, um, and, you know, I think that part of, part of the sadness in our society is that we don't recognize the difference between the roles of men and women. And like, like we call St. Mary Magdalene,

the equal to the apostles, right? But we don't call her an apostle, like, but she was an equal. It's not like she's a lesser, but she has a different role. And,

and, and I think that part of the the part of the problem with with um when women are trying to take up the role of men in doing so they're neglecting some of the roles that they could be taking up as women um so i i think that that the roles of leadership for women within the church lie in different areas. And I'll say that one of the things that I think our church is greatly lacking right now is the role of spiritual mothers. And this is something, spiritual motherhood is something that all women are called to not not just nuns who are life professed and are called mother um and so i think that there are ways within parishes that women can step up to be to be spiritual mothers and to really um like reach into

the places of their of their femininity, that allow them to like reach certain groups within the parish, um, that are not the same as, as being deacons or priests or something like that. Um, and the, yeah, I just like, there, there are very particular reasons that priests need to be men. Um, and again, St. John Paul II speaks to this very well. So he has a document on the, the reason I point to him in particular is because JP2 has this document, um, that I brought to a priest who, um, he was, he was preaching in his homily. Um, you know, I You know, I'll just tell the story about the, this is the one that upset someone who wrote into the podcast. But I was at a mass one time,

and the priest in his homily seemed to me to be advocating for women priests. And I was really upset by this because I was thinking of, I was thinking of my mom, because my mom has this just really, really beautiful childlike faith. Like she has a kind of faith that I aspire to. Um, and because of this, she will take what a priest or a nun says as gospel truth, you know, because she should be able to, like, you know, that should be the case. And so I'm, I'm thinking of her as, as he's preaching this homily. And I'm thinking if there's someone in

this congregation, like my mom, they're going to think this is now what the church teaches. Yes. And so, um, so I was very upset and, um, and I, I leave the church. I mean, I stayed for, for the rest of mass, but I, I leave the church afterwards and i stayed for for the rest of mass but i i leave the church afterwards and i'm like i'm gonna write to the bishop because that's not okay and then i was like no don't write to the bishop go talk to the priest because if you have a problem with your brother go to your brother right so um so i schedule an appointment with this priest and and i approach him like with in a rare in a moment of grace because i am not a meek person at all i approach him with meekness and gentleness and i said um you know i received what you said in your homily is this

and i might have been misinterpreting and so on and so forth and he's like you didn't misinterpret that's exactly what i was saying and i was like okay well um i think you can't say that and he's like i'm a priest this is where i want this is where i want non-meek sister natalia to come out and be like shame on you throw a glass of water in his face um yeah i didn't do that but um but he's i um he says like well i'm my i'm a priest but i'm still entitled to my own opinion and i was like that's true but if that opinion is in contradiction to church teaching you can't preach it from the pulpit like you promised obedience um and he was like well i believe rome is in flux about this this was when pope francis was was first pope um and i was like well um rome's not in flux about this like jp2 wrote this this document that's only like two

pages about ordination of women and the whole document basically just says never yeah and um i said but even if rome is in flux um as of right now this is the church teaching and um like you're in obedience to that and he's like okay well agree to disagree and i was like okay you're like no shut the door so then i left and um and i'm gonna be daydreaming about this go so then i left and then i wrote the bishop um because i was like yeah my brother didn't right so um but did you get a response um oh yes yes he responded and he was like he responded very quickly and he was like this won't happen again um and i won't say what diocese it was obviously but um but anyways so so the reason i like to use saint john paul ii for this is because he wrote this document and at the same time like saint john paul ii for this is because he wrote this document and at the same time like

saint john paul ii wrote the dignity of women and he like more than i'm not going to say more than any other pope because i don't know lots of the popes but more than any of the other popes that i know he like extensively promoted um the role of women in the church and the dignity of women so i would i would recommend read this church this this document that he wrote about ordination of women and read what he wrote on the dignity of women. And, and you'll just see like the difference of the, the roles of women and men in the priest,

in the church. That's beautiful. Good for you for having the courage to do that. That, that actually does, that takes courage to approach a priest and do that as you did and not just write to the bishop. I would also recommend that people check out a talk by Peter Kreeft called Why Only the Boys Can Be the Daddies.

I believe that's what it's called. It's an excellent talk. That's great. On male ordination. All right, sister. Soon to be mother. I think we're pretty much wrapping up here. Great.

Anything else you want to touch upon point people to tell them where to buy chockeys from who's that chockey oh you can't tell me yeah we're not talking about that right um i do want to let people know that right after this interview ends mother gabriella and sister natalia we are going to do a private video just for my patrons. So if you are a patron, please be sure to check that out. I think it would be really cool if you would just ask Mother Gabriela about her own discernment and how she became a nun. I would be really interested in that if you're open to chatting about that. So if you are a patron or if you want to become a patron,

be sure to check that out. We'll make sure we upload that today. I know the story so I can ask all the leading questions. Ah, I can't wait to hear it. Yeah. Anything else you want to address? I mean, I don't think so I can ask all the leading questions. I can't wait to hear it. Yeah. Anything else you want to address? I mean, I don't think so. This is your thing.

What do you have to do to get prepared for a final profession? Lifelong. I'm sorry. I keep saying final. Lifelong profession. Yeah. So we go on a pre-profession retreat. Have you done that yet?

I did. Yeah. I went out to. It was everything you would expect a pre-profession retreat to be no expectations. Um, in the sense of like lots of things went horribly wrong. Um, so it started out my first morning. There is, um, a story that I promised to tell you later, um, in which, uh, one of the most embarrassing things of my life happened. Um, and i started also having this um mysterious case of what i later realized were hives um which lasted for four weeks and we're still fighting that um and they only

come at night and they cover like 70 to 80 percent of my body and it's how random horrible is that what hives do um here's the cool thing uh we just i had a doctor appointment last week and um and they realized what it is that we still don't know the cause it's um it's autoimmune and the way that they realized this so it's not like an allergic reaction um but the way that they realized this is um they drew my you know how they do like scratch test for allergies so they drew my blood put it through a centrifuge to pull a serum out and then um did a scratch test on me with the serum and i reacted to my own blood wow yeah i'm like a straight ass that's not cool i know if you're reacting i know i'm like allergic to my own blood it's horrible

anyway so that started that started i think my wife among other things has autoimmune as well um and then i also um got like a running injury and and came home on crutches and so old hairy legs is up to his old tricks exactly trying to take you out before lifelong profession uh yeah um i can't wait to learn what that was yeah you're not old hairy legs. Just in case. That was Satan. Old hairy legs. Satan. Yeah. So, anyways, it was really beautiful. I spent the whole retreat praying with the life profession service and just, like, very intentionally praying with each piece of it. And it was amazing. So, yeah, there's that.

And then, yeah. And then, like, extra retreat days each month, things like that. So, yeah. I am glad you exist. You are a blessing to me and my family. And I cannot wait to call you and treat you as my mother. That's very beautiful. Yes.

All right. Thanks. Cheers, Neil. Cheers, mother. We're about to do a video for the patrons. Stick around. Thanks.