Pints With Aquinas - From Atheist to Catholic Priest w/ Fr. Mark Goring

Episode Date: January 26, 2021

Today I chat with Fr. Mark Goring about how he went from being an atheist to a Catholic priest.   SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/   GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show.   LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd   MY BOOKS Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd and today I am joined around the bar table by Father Mark Goring to discuss his conversion from atheism back to the faith of his youth, Catholicism, and of course now he's a Catholic priest. So how do you go from being an atheist to a Catholic priest? That's what we will be discussing today. Thanks for being here. Before we go any further, I want to tell you about Strive, which is a course I created for men who struggle with lust or pornography in any way. Is that you? Go check out strive21.com. We have over 24,800 men going through this 21-day challenge right now. You can join anytime. You don't have

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Matt, it's an honor. Where are you now? I mean, you've got quite the YouTube presence right now, but for those who haven't heard of you, who is Father Mark Goring? Where is he from and where is he living now? Yeah, I mean, I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I'm a member of a community called the Companions of the Cross, which is based in Ottawa, but we have houses in different parts. And I'm the pastor, pastor of St. Mary's Parish, wonderful parish here in Ottawa. It's funny, because, you know, when I used to live in Texas, I know I went to your church a few times. In my head, you were still living there. How long have you been back in Ottawa for?

About a year and a half. Cool. Cool. What's the difference between, like, what's the, have you noticed a difference in the religious sort of freedom? still living there how long you been back in ottawa for uh about a year and a half cool cool what's the difference between like what's the have you noticed a difference in the religious sort of freedom and expression in having lived in texas and now back in canada is there some is that as uh yeah yeah yeah yeah well texas is obviously bible belt and so you have just a lot of just real good Christian faith, you know, people who genuinely love the Lord. They've accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and, you know, so many of them are trying to really live good lives. In Texas, they'll have a pastor come up and do a prayer before a football game. In restaurants, it's very common to see people praying grace before a meal.

When you go out wearing your clerics, people really honor you. A lot of times, if you go to a restaurant, the waitress says, yeah, someone paid for your meal. And so, yeah, no, just real, real good people in Texas. Obviously, Canadians are good people, too. I guess Canada has been afflicted by the secularism, the atheistic secularism for quite a while. And so, I mean, I'm in a very fervent parish, and so just some real mature, holy, you know, God-loving people in my parents it's like a little bubble a little oasis in the city um but the the culture in canada is quite secular and the other thing too is canada is a very um affluent country and the sad thing is, when everything is good, you know, at a physical human level, so many people, they just don't feel they need God, you know. So pray for Canada.

Very good. Well, I want to talk about your conversion today from atheism to obviously being a Catholic and now a Catholic priest. So where did you grow up and what was your family like growing up as far as religion? Yeah, well, maybe before getting into that, I want to say, Matt, I love your YouTube ministry. I've said this before publicly. I think you're my favorite YouTube voice. I love the fact that you go there. You ask the questions that some people don't want to ask,

you address the issues, and I also just like, you know, the angle or your perspective on things. So I just want to thank you just at the beginning of this video. Thank you for your excellent work, and I really appreciate it. Well, glory to God. Yeah, it's a difficult thing because, you know, I know nothing, you know, no sin matter. I know nothing in regards to what's going on in the church. I look at the church like you look at the church, and I see the divisiveness. I see that some of it's legitimate, but at the same time, I'm trying to be humble and not talk about what I don't know about. I don't know about a lot of things, so it's weird.

I mean, I think I said this in a recent video. It's this constant, am I being prudent or am I being a coward? I don't know if you've experienced that. Well, the thing is, I looked at your, just glanced at the videos you've done in the last while on your YouTube channel. You've interviewed tons of the thinkers or the voices or the prophets of our time. I don't know if there's many people in the Catholic world, Matt, who knows the Catholic faith and the different perspectives as well as you do. I mean, I'm sure there are. There's a lot of apologists and all that,

but you're—and also you have a bit of that Orthodox influence through your wife, and you kind of—you appreciate some of the charismatic, some of the traditional. So, you know, don't underestimate your, you know, the gifts the Lord has given to you and how seriously people take you. But also the, you know, what the Lord is expecting of you. To whom much is given, much will be expected. And I mean, watching you too, there's times I kind of envy you. It's like, oh my gosh, can you imagine sitting at the feet of Peter Kreeft and Father Mike Schmitz and Scott Hahn and just the list? And the thing is, you're trying to read the books and, I guess, the articles and, you know, watch the videos so that you have some sense that you know what you're talking about. So, like I said, I don't know if there's many people, especially in your generation, who has such a pulse and an understanding of where the Catholic Church is at.

And the Catholic Church is the hope of the world. Amen. Go ahead. To that point, I just sent out 120 letters to different monasteries and convents all over America begging their prayers for Piance and all those who view it. And I just walked in the office today, and I've got all of these letters I need to open from convents and monasteries, presumably telling me they'll be praying for us.

But, yeah, it's so true. I remember hearing a priest once saying, Lord, use my bull crap, although he used a different word, for manure, as manure for their growth. In other words, Lord, I give all of it to you, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly. I don't want it to be ugly. I don't want it to be bad, but you use it for your good, you know. The other thing too, Matt, is we're dealing with a moment in the church that is huge, you know. It's an extremely critical moment in the church in that we're seeing just a wide-scale compromise on the part of Catholics being kind of swept away by the current of this world.

You know, they're becoming worldly. We're losing our young people. But it's also a strange moment in that people like you can reach the whole world, like on YouTube. And again, don't downplay what I'm telling you. Your knowledge of the situation in the Church, of the Catholic faith, your ability to communicate the Catholic faith, also, again, your ability to communicate the Catholic faith. Also, again, your generation, you're a

younger man who can relate to the young people and also the older folks. You were born for such a time as this. And again, there's a tremendous, it's a tremendous gift, it's a tremendous grace, but it's also a huge responsibility to guide the Church at this time in the history of the world. And again, the Church, the world depends on the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ to have light. to have light. If the Catholic Church wavers or starts to flicker and lose its shiningness, the world, the whole world suffers. And so, yeah, like I said, don't underestimate the situation you're in. And the other thing, if you don't, I hope you don't mind me just kind of getting into this, And the other thing, if you don't, I hope you don't mind me just kind of getting into this, but the other plague that the world, or perhaps the plague that the world is suffering from, is the pornography, you know, and you've addressed that.

This is a plague. It's doing serious harm to the souls. It used to be just men, but now it's even women like just kind of you know the the souls are being um corrupted through through the pornography and in your book um the porn delivered oh delivered yeah delivered that's that that was the first one i put out yeah yeah. Yeah, when I read that book, I thought you hit the nail on the head. Anyways, we could talk about that book. Well, no, thank you. I receive it.

I receive your words, and I appreciate them, and yeah, thank you. Okay, I just want to take a pause for one second to say thank you to our sponsor, Halo, which is an actually incredible prayer app that will help you pray, which, yeah, good. That's what a prayer app does. Check it out. Halo.com slash Matt Fradd.

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that you would pray more, this app will help you. It's really well produced and it's 100% Catholic. My wife and I have used it and have found it very helpful. Halo.com slash Matt Fradd. They've got a whole free – they've got a bunch of free material on their app. But if you want access to the entire thing for free for three months, go to hallo.com slash Matt Fradd and sign up there. You can try it out for three months. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay anything, of course,

but you'll get access to everything, including sleep stories that have been read to you by yours truly and Father Mike Schmitz and Jonathan Rumi. Check it out. It's really great to see Catholics producing excellent content like this. hallo.com slash Matt Fradd. There's a link in the description below. Click it and start it today. Yeah, man. Glory to God. I know you've been doing a lot of work as well and your your youtube channel is is is banging on all cylinders um how's that going what's that like for you because you probably experience the same tension i do like the last thing i want to be is a source of division you know i'm trying to evangelize and tell especially our protestants and those who are outside of the

catholic church the good news about Jesus Christ, and I want to invite them into the fullness of it. But at the same time, to pretend that there isn't these factions warring within the Church, that there isn't this, if you want to use the word, weaponized ambiguity that's being perpetrated by some, at least it would appear to be that way, it's not helpful just to pretend that doesn't exist. So it's kind of like this imbalance.

I mean, how have you gone with that? Well, it's funny. I made a general confession last night. I just did my canonical retreat, and one of the things I wanted to do is just kind of repent of all of my sins. But in particular, since the Summer of Shame, since the whole McCarrick thing in the Pennsylvania report, you know, that's when I went from doing videos just on, you know, how to improve your spiritual life and how to improve your daily routine to addressing the issues of the church. I felt the Lord was calling me to do that, but it really got me into a whole different world of, you know, commenting on the situation in the church.

And so part of my repentance was just repenting of all those things. It's like, you know, I'm saying, like, I've been angry. I've been dealing with anger. you know, not always maybe saying things with the care that I should, you know, sometimes being a little too crass and all that. And after I made my confession, the priest said to me, he said, you know, the Lord looks at your heart, you know, and he said when you, he was taught in the seminary, the work it takes to set up a cart and get the horse and harness the horse and all that, and finally to get the horse moving and going is just a lot of work.

And he said, in your life, you're moving, you know, you're trying to help people to know the Lord Jesus, to seek first the kingdom of God, to avoid the spirit of the age. And he said, you know, you're not doing things perfectly, but at least you're moving. And, you know, if you allow yourself to be directed, if you stay humble before the Lord, you know, the Lord can use someone who's on the battlefield actually trying to fight the fight you know and so i mean the thing is is like it's like you're damned if you're you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't if you just say you know what i'm just gonna stick on stick with you know kind of doing my little hidden thing and not bother anyone like for me i don't think I could get before the judgment throne without feeling like I wasn't courageous. I wasn't willing to fight for my bride. I wasn't willing to be a fool for Christ.

To me, when the church is in crisis and you have some influence, you have to fight. You know, you have to use it to try to help. to fight, you know, you have to use it to try to help. But if you do, you're out in the open, and people are going to put their crosshairs on you, you know, and you're going to make mistakes. Like, that was my complaint to the Lord, you know, when I started commenting on things in the church. I said, Lord, I don't have a clue what I'm doing. And I know other people who are so much more intelligent, and they're so much more gifted, they're so much more humble, they're so much more, like they're better in every way possible. They could do this, but the thing is they're not.

I felt that way too. That's why I was so thrilled to see Ralph Martin's book, because that was my, I don't know if you saw that video I did after what Pope Francis allegedly said regarding same-sex unions, where I'm like, could somebody please? I'm looking for somebody who recognizes Pope Francis as the true Pope, that isn't demonizing the Novus Ordo, that isn't rejecting Vatican II. I would like someone in that space to begin to acknowledge some of the unhelpful things that are being said and done

so that, you know, us traditional-minded Catholics aren't continually being gaslighted by people who are like, calm down. And so when I read that book by Ralph Martin, I was just so thrilled. I was like, okay, this is really an answer to prayer, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I'm the same. who knows what he's talking about and loves our lord and yeah and it's nice because you can when people are asking questions and concern you can say well read ralph martin's book like yeah what he said you know and and that's why again to me your work on youtube it's the same thing it's like well, well, you know, like, listen to what Matt Fradd is saying. He kind of has, and the big thing, the thing that really caused you to earn my respect or just appreciation was when you interviewed Father Mike Schmitz, and you guys talked about the whole issue of, you know, a priest who's saying that, you know, however, you know, we have the development of, you know,

doctrine in different ways, things develop. You may not wish to say his name, but I'll say Father James Martin for you. And so the notion that, well, one day the Catholic Church, just like the other, some other Christian denominations, will recognize same-sex marriage. It's just kind of a development and other things like that. And what bugged me the most about that debate was people who were trying to remain faithful to the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ were being accused of not being sensitive and not being caring and being bullies.

And then I hear you and Father Mike Schmitz filled with compassion and understanding and love and not being mean-spirited at all, you know? No, yeah. That's Father Mike Schmitz for sure. Like, that man, he needs our prayers, I tell you what, because he must have the most gigantic target on his back. There's a man who loves our Lord Jesus Christ, loves our church, is orthodox, is going to say things that people don't want to hear, but says it with tremendous charity. He's really doing a lot of great work for him. He needs our prayers. Yeah.

doing a lot of great work for him. He needs our prayers, you know. Yeah. My brother, I don't think he'd mind me saying this. He isn't, you know, terribly into his faith as he once was. And I'm not sure if he goes to Holy Mass every week, but, you know, I spoke to him and he said he watches Father Mike Schmitz all the time. And I just thought, my goodness, like there's the power of the new media for you, you know're reaching to the ends of the earth, even those who aren't fully at the breast of Holy Mother Church. So, yeah, it really is a gift. Part of me is waiting for YouTube to shut us all down, and part of me is like, bring it on.

I don't know if I'm terribly concerned. They can do what they want. Yeah, glory to Jesus Christ. It's a know if I'm terribly concerned. They can do what they want. Yeah. Glory to Jesus Christ. It's a crazy time. We need saints. We need to get back to the gospel message too, right? Of like, come and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior.

And repudiate the heresies of the world. You know, trample upon the dogmas of this age. And embrace Christ and have life. Yeah, yeah, amen. Because so much, it's a false gospel. I mean, it's like when you're trying to tell people about Jesus Christ

who are thoroughly steeped in the doctrines of this world, I really do not think it's much of a stretch to say this sort of leftism, as it's being called, is like a religious cult. You know, this idea that men can magically become women by willing it, and women men, and all these sorts of things. It's just absurd. It's so absurd, so illogical, that to try to evangelize somebody, it's like trying to reach out to somebody who's thoroughly invested in a cult. And I even see that in the catholic church i sometimes think i've got far more in common with an orthodox protestant than a woke catholic anyway yeah yeah yeah well i mean i i say often

our world's gone completely bonkers you know and um i guess i guess the flip side is that because the world is going so bonkers, I think there are people who are just kind of waking up and saying, wait a minute, like, this is nuts. And it's kind of like the frog in the hot water that's getting hotter and hotter. I mean, some people will boil to death, and that's just a biblical reality. You know, wide and easy is the road that leads to destruction, and most people take it. But I think there are people, and I'm seeing it, you know, there are people who they're realizing, wait a minute, this is nuts, and I'm getting out. And so they're kind of jumping out of the hot water before they boil to death.

And like we're discussing here too, I think there is a moment now in time when we can proclaim to the whole world by these different social media means, the gospel, and people are listening. Like, there was a gentleman yesterday who came to see me. He didn't grow up Catholic, and he was interested in Catholicism, but he was kind of involved with the Pentecostals and Anglicanism and all of this. And so I thought, okay, well, I guess I'll have to kind of see where he's at and explain some things to him. And then he just says, oh, yeah, like I've been listening to Father or Bishop Robert Barron and Brant Petrie and like a lot of it. And I'm like, OK, well, I mean, you're getting obviously some good formation and he's ready to become Catholic.

And it's because he's being formed by the internet, by YouTube or whatever. So, yeah. Man, glory to God. I actually haven't heard much of your story. So I would love it if you wouldn't mind sharing. We definitely, I mean, we've hosted a couple of debates between, say, Trent Horne and is it Alex O'Connor or Alex Connor? I'm forgetting his name. Cosmic Skeptic is his name on YouTube. He's got a very popular platform. He seems to be increasingly open to theism. Trent did a superb job in that debate. Father Gregory Pine debated somebody from Real Atheology.

So we have atheists who drop by, comment, and things like this. And yeah, I'd just love to hear a bit of your story, if you don't mind. Yeah, sure. Well, I grew up in a good Catholic family, and we'd go to church every Sunday. We'd pray together sometimes. And I guess growing up, I loved my Catholic faith. You know, I especially loved the idea of heaven. You know, like, who wouldn't want to spend eternity in a place where there's no tears and no pain, You know, I especially love the idea of heaven, you know, like who wouldn't want to spend eternity in a place where there's no tears and no pain, you know, eternal bliss. But then what happened is, is in my, even before becoming a teenager, maybe as early as 11, 12 years old, I just began to have doubts about God. And I guess what brought it on was already just hearing the voices in the world saying,

well, you know, I mean, obviously Noah's Ark never happened. And, you know, obviously, you know, there's all these different religions and there, you know, there can't be one that's really the true religion. And obviously, religious experience can be explained by psychology. religion, and obviously religious experience can be explained by psychology. And so just the kind of the atheistic, secular mindset was influencing me. And I was also, this is into, you know, closer to the teen years, dealing with the whole question of choosing a moral path for my life. I guess the friends I was hanging out with were typically older than I was. And so, you know, they're already talking about, you know, what they were doing with their girlfriends or wanting to do with their girlfriends.

And there was, you know, the drinking, the partying. And I was just kind of at a place where I had to make a decision like, okay, what path am I going to go down? Because again, I grew up in a good Catholic family. I loved my Catholic faith, but I kind of didn't believe in God. And then I was feeling the draw towards the world, the temptations and my own, you know, human, you know, hitting puberty and all that, like, just the whole kind of draw to the world, the flesh and the devil. And I was just in a place where, like, I knew I had to make a decision. Like, you know, I, and I guess what happened was I was at a crossroads where almost all of me felt, yeah, of course I'm going to go the way of the world because, you know, that's the way of whatever, the pleasures and being cool, considered cool by my friends. How old are you when you're thinking of these things? Around 13-ish.

I think we have a similar story, yeah. So it was almost like a slow suffocation. It wasn't like, was it, I mean, maybe you're about to get to it, I apologize, but it doesn't sound like you argued out of your Catholic faith so much as you were hearing bits and pieces that led you to maybe doubt it, and then you've also got the pull of the world that's attracting you. So it was like a gradual suffocation. Yeah, exactly, exactly. the pull of the world that's attracting you so it was like a gradual suffocation exactly exactly um and then so but thanks be to god i had enough sense like my my where my heart was at was okay almost all of me just wants to go the way of the world party be cool have have fun, you know, because I didn't believe in God, and why in the world would I try to live like a good Catholic if I don't even know if God is real? But the thing that threw a

wrench in my system is I had enough life experience, already as a, I guess now it's like 13, 14, I had enough life experience to know that if I go the way of the world, it's not going to make me happy. It's going to let me down. Yeah, I knew that. Like, I knew if I go after just kind of seeking my own kind of selfish, you know, desires and ambitions and all that, I knew it would leave me empty. And that was so frustrating for me, because it's like, the other option to live like a good Catholic, it's like, I don't believe in God, you know? And so, long story short, I actually talked to my dad about it. And I mean, I didn't say to my dad, Dad, I don't believe in God and I want to have sex.

What should I do? I wasn't kind of that honest with him. But the way I put it is we were praying. We would pray the rosary together as a family, oftentimes in the evening. And one evening after praying the rosary, I just said to my dad, I said, Dad, listen, I don't mind praying the rosary like this.

It's fine. But I have to be honest with you. I feel that when I'm praying the rosary, I'm talking to a brick wall. I said, I have no sense that there's anyone listening to me. And I asked my dad, I said, is that the way it's supposed to be? me. And I asked my dad, I said, is that the way it's supposed to be? Like, is being a good Catholic just say your prayers, follow the rules, go to church on Sunday, and hopefully if there is a God, you'll get to heaven? Like I said, is that how we're supposed to experience God, or basically not experience God? Or I said, or is it actually possible to know He's real, like to experience

Him? I love how honest that question is. Yeah. It doesn't sound like you were asking it in a snide kind of mocking way. No, no. See, I was searching. I was sincerely trying to find a foundation to build my life on, a direction in my life. What did your dad say to that?

Well, he said, thanks be to God, he said, yeah, you can experience God. And he said, you should learn about the saints. And then he told me about St. Padre Pio, St. Teresa of Avila, who levitated, experienced God, St. Brother Andre in Canada. He just started, St. Francis of Assisi, who had the Stigmata, he just started sharing that, no, God is real. And he's not just a blob of energy hidden a gazillion light years away that you can't be in communion with. And he gave me a little book about St. Joseph Cupertino, the beloved Franciscan saint who would levitate, you know, so often in front of crowds of people.

And when I read that book, just something inside of me was ignited. You know, I had a real thirst for God. And what happened is I still didn't really, I still wasn't sure if I believed in God, but my prayer was, like, God, if you're real, I'm in. I want you to be real. I love it. And if you are real, show me I'm in. And that just began, I mean, I'm giving you the short version, but that just began a seeking for God.

How old were you at this point? Still 13? Well, I would say this would have been into 13, 14. And then did you chat about God or atheism with your friends at the time? Well, I mean, I'm embarrassed to say this was a secret hidden journey. Like to my buddies, I was still using the bad language, still kind of getting into the trouble, still not showing any signs, because it was like Nicodemus, you know, like at night praying to God. So it was a slow process. But see, again, it was little by little. I would start to kind of mention little things about God to my friends or try to stop doing bad things and all of that. But I had one particular, I guess it was one of the most powerful experiences in this wonderful.

I mean, that was the beginning of a real beautiful journey in my life. But I remember I was in the, I got into the habit of reading scripture every night before going to bed and then praying on my knees, you know, the Our Father, some Hail Marys and the Glory Be. And I would do this night after night. And I remember one night I was laying in bed after I'd done my prayer time. And this is all in secret, you know, I mean, I thought night I was laying in bed after I'd done my prayer time. And this is all in secret. I was still in a place where I thought, man, if people saw me, they'd think I was psycho. Why would a normal person do something like this? But I remember one night after my prayer time, I was laying in bed, and there was something categorically different that night while laying in bed because

for me for a long time night time was a time of fear it was a time of of kind of i don't know depression anxiety um temptations i i would typically have trouble falling asleep it would take a while like it was just just a dark it was a time of darkness. And part of it too, Matt, is through sin in my life, I know that I did drive the Holy Spirit out of my heart. I broke God's commandments deliberately. I mean, I really didn't believe in God. And I think that's part of the reason I fell into that darkness of atheism, is I did things that I knew were wrong, and I did them anyways. And we know that drives the Holy Spirit out, and when the Holy Spirit's not there, it's a lot harder to believe in God, you know? And so anyways, but that night, again, I'm dealing with the—I was consistently dealing with fear and all

of that temptation that night. That particular night, I'm laying in bed, and all of that darkness is gone. And instead, inside of me, there was this joy. At the time, I would have just described it as happiness. Now I know it to be joy. But it's like I felt so happy. But it wasn't an emotional, like, I wasn't excited. It was, it was a deep peace, joy, you know, like a joyful, deep peace. It wasn't emotional, like, you know, and it was like, I knew it was deep, deep within,

and it felt like a fire. Like, it felt like there was a heat, a warmth, a fire inside of me that made me so happy, yet I felt so peaceful. And, you know, and at the time, I had enough memory of my catechism that I thought, I think this is the Holy Spirit, you know? And that grace, it never left me. In my young years, I would pray at night. And one of the things I told myself, because I was experiencing God while I was praying in different ways, and I told myself, you know how sometimes you talk to yourself, you tell yourself to do something? I remember saying, Mark, don't ever stop doing this. Because in prayer, it's was I could see my dignity like I could see who I was and I could only see it while I was in prayer you know and and I kind of had a sense of who God was in and it's like I

understood the mystery of you know God's transcendence and my dignity because again the atheistic mindset is I'm just a highly developed monkey or whatever. And when I die, it's like those brain waves, that electricity, it goes out and that's it. You know, that's the end of this phenomenon called Mark Oring. And now in prayer, I can see and experience, you know, the reality of God in my own dignity. experience, you know, the reality of God and my own dignity. And it's like, I said to myself, I don't ever want to lose sight of this reality. So I promised myself to pray every night for the rest of my life, you know. And what was my point? Pray every night. And I don't know. You experienced that fire, you you said laying in bed the darkness

went away and oh yeah yeah glory to that reality that reality stayed with me like it's like the darkness and i guess i guess there's a scripture like i i was just learning scripture at the time but there's the promise you know when you pray go to your room pray to your father in secret and your father in secret will reward you and it's become so clear to me that if you go to God and beg God to help you, he dries out the darkness. When you go to God, you're left filled with God. And again, as a teenager, I didn't know what I was doing, but looking back, it's like, well, no kidding. You were seeking God, and what does God do when we seek him? He doesn't turn us away. He fills us with life, and what does God do when we seek Him?

He doesn't turn us away. He fills us with life, and that's what I experienced. It's interesting what you had to say there about when you seriously sin, knowingly, you drive out the Holy Spirit. It's difficult to believe in God in that sense. Yeah, it reminded me, and my sister Emma, I don't know if you ever met Emma. She used to work there in Ottawa for Net Ministries of Canada. But she came and visited my wife and I when we lived in Ireland back in the day. She was 12 years ago, something like that. And anyway, she was an atheist, you know, and we had argued a great deal.

And she had been involved in serious sin. Anyway, she came to me and she said, I want you to know I am really open. So we had debated back and forth and argued to the cows, came home. And eventually she came to me, I want you to know if God does, I am actually open. Like I'm not just arguing.

And one of the things I said to her, and I'd love your take on this, is like, okay, like you need to repent of your sin. Like you actually need to, those things that you were involved in, like you have to repent from your heart. And she you actually need to, those things that you were involved in, like, you have to repent from your heart. And she's like, well, I don't think that they're sins. I'm like, okay, but, like, they are, and you have to.

And I don't know if I was right in saying this or what, but I was like, you know, saying that, like, you want to believe in God, but you don't want to turn away from these serious sins is basically a contradiction. And it wasn't until she actually went to confession, we went to this place of prayer. She went to confession, I think. And someone told me she was in confession. I couldn't believe it.

And that was when she really, you know, began to experience God. But yeah, what do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. A genuine experience of God is in His light, we see light. And so if we experience God, His light sheds light on ourselves. And if it's a genuine experience of God, and there's sinfulness, darkness in us, we will see it, and we will be grieved. No one will need to tell us, well, you need to repent because this is bad. A genuine experience of God is seeing, I've offended the Lord, I've offended myself.

Like, I've done things that are below my dignity. But if we have an attachment to sin, it's like we have darkness in our heart, and it's like God can't live in your heart if you have left the door of your heart open to sin. So, I mean, the first words of our Lord Jesus are repent, you know, repent and believe the good news. And again, it's a hard thing to convince someone of that if they're doing sinful things, that they're blocking God's grace in their life. Yeah. yeah what would you know after this experience that you had laying in bed that night uh it sounded like you said some of that was still in secret after the fact but like how did this eventually come out like how did your parents begin to realize what was going on did you share that with them did you begin to pull away from your friends who were engaging in sin

yeah yeah i mean there there was that gradual you know, with little milestones on the way of, you know, just little by little changing. And sometimes, too, like kind of making just a decision that, you know what, I'm not using bad language anymore. Or, you know what, like, I'm not, like, whatever, you know, doing these things anymore. I mean, to get to the place that you're proclaiming your faith, or even just simply sharing your faith with others, I mean, that's huge. I guess the other thing, too, I joined the little Catholic charismatic prayer group. A friend of mine, one of my fishing buddies, his mom and dad were charismatic and they they invited me to join them for their little charismatic prayer group which i knew nothing about i thought they were it's funny like i thought they were completely nuts but they were happy they were happy but also

i'd been reading about the saints and i thought like the way these guys are excited about their faith and share their faith, that's like the saints. And it's like the cultural Catholics that I'm used to, they don't reflect the lives of the saints. You know, for them, it's more like their faith is just one other thing in their life. And it's kind of a private, personal thing. And so I saw something genuine in them. I saw something of the saints in this charismatic couple. So what happens is when you're in community, then you see others sharing their faith, and you're being challenged to share your faith and not be ashamed. And so that kind of busted me out of my own little me and Jesus in the quiet of my,

you know, solitude of my room. So yeah, community is essential in the Christian life, you know, and that was my first experience of Christian community. What was, how did your old friends react as you started to try and live the Christian life? I pretty much lost all my friends. I'm not joking. No, me too. I did too, gradually. Yeah.

So was it like a... For me, it wasn't so immediate. And it wasn't so immediate for me, I think, because I was still trying to justify a lot of the things that I was engaged in. I want to be clear, too, for those who are watching. When we talk about stopping engaging in sin and things like that, we're not talking about how we might accidentally sin or how we are still attached to these small things. We're talking about these serious things that we're engaged in

and that were kind of killing us and that you need to turn away from in a manly way. Yeah. The things that I think really drove the Holy Spirit out of my life that caused me to not be able to believe in God were, like I said, the very obvious things, and this is already in late childhood, you know, when all of a sudden your friends and you, you're trying to be cool. You discover the reality of cool and you have these little moral choices as a young person. Like, do I start using bad language?

I know that's wrong. But if I do, my friends will think I'm cool. They'll think it's funny. And so you make a little moral decision. I know it's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyways. And then, you know, listening to bad music, like at the time, you know, some of my friends passed on some cassette tapes with really bad rap music, you know, very vulgar, very obscene. You're kind of listening to this stuff. You know it's bad. You know it's wrong.

But you make a decision. You're going to listen to it anyway. And also, and this is an awful one, being mean to people, like making fun of a person who struggles in life. Like in every classroom, there's one or two people, life is really hard for them. And some of your friends want to make fun of them, and that's a moral decision. I know it's wrong to either make fun or bully or harm this person.

I know it's wrong. My heart is telling me it's wrong. But I want my friends to think I'm cool. I want to be in the in crowd. So I'm going to deny what my heart is telling me. And what is it that in my heart that's telling me? It's the Holy Spirit. So I'm going to say, Holy Spirit, thanks, but you can step aside because I want to be cool. I want to bow down to the idol of coolness. And that's, I know what drove the Holy Spirit out of my heart.

You know, those repeated little decisions. I'm going to use bad language, I'm going to listen to bad music, I'm going to make fun of people. And then again, I unfortunately, I had a bit of an attachment to that. I liked it because it made me popular. And that meant so much to me. So there was this, you know, I'm clinging. And then what can happen is you develop a whole mentality of, well, it's okay, you know, we're grown up. And I think what happens in Romans 1, it talks about the darkening of the intellect. And the next thing you know, it're, you know, it affects sexuality, you know?

I mean, thanks be to God, I've never had sex, you know, I've never done anything sexual with anyone my whole life. I've never done drugs, you know, but I did enough kind of, you know, stupid things to know what it's like to be under the dominion of Satan. You know, I mean, I'll put it bluntly, like, if you drive the Holy Spirit out of your heart, guess who comes in? It's the evil one. And then so, if we're under the influence of the evil one, our ability to judge what's right and wrong, it gets skewed. And like I said, and so my prayer time did include repentance. There was part of when I would pray, I would be just moved at times with, and that's, again, I could tell a whole story about that, but there was times where I was just so grieved

over the bad things I'd done. And I would weep, you know, I would just be so grieved. And I think that repentance and begging God to come into my life and heart, that's what drove the devil out and allowed the Holy Spirit to come back in. Yeah, I love what you're talking about. I love this idea that there's like multiple paths to God. And I think sometimes we as Christians, as we seek to evangelize our atheist friends, we might lay out some version of the cosmological argument or the argument for the resurrection being credible and these sorts of things.

And all of that is really great because I think that does remove the sort of stumbling blocks that are present as we seek to follow the truth. But it's also the case that you can say to somebody, like, repent of your sin and beg the Holy Spirit to convict you. You know, like, that's an option. And we don't often talk about that, you know. I think sometimes like in evangelization today, it's like we have a few options. You know, we say things like, well, this is true and therefore you should accept it. Here's the syllogism. Or we say, like, you need to live, like, you know, your best life. And if you want to live life to the full you know that's great there's another way of

evangelizing that many of us don't pick up on and that's god has revealed himself to us and we are we stand before him condemned and we will spend eternity in hell unless we repent of our sin and turn to him and we will experience his. We will taste and see that the Lord is good. I don't actually know the last time I've sort of tried that method of evangelization, but it sounds like that was kind of your experience. How have you found that when sort of ministering to atheists and agnostics? Have you used that approach, and how has that gone? Yeah, well, I mean, one of the approaches that I use with evangelization based on my conversion is, see, part of my story, like I mentioned, is I read

the life of Saint Joseph Cupertino, and that led me to reading the life of other saints. And what happens is, when you read, whether it's the life of a saint or, obviously, the Holy Scriptures and, you know, other good spiritual books, of a saint or obviously the Holy Scriptures and other good spiritual books, The Imitation of Christ, I read that as a young person. That's a great one. So you sit down and you read a little book, say The Imitation of Christ, which is, you know, it might take a person, you know, what, six, 12 hours to read. Those six or 12 hours, if the person is reading with somewhat of an open heart and an interest,

those six to twelve hours, that's meditation time. Even though you don't realize it. You think, well, I'm just reading a book. No, you're not reading a book. You're opening your heart and mind to truth. You're meditating. And that meditation makes a place, it's like a door is opened for God to come in. And I guess what happened to me in my life is every time I would read a book, I'm here, I'm sitting, I'm like a sitting duck for the Holy Spirit, because my mind and heart are open, because I'm genuinely interested, and so for the 10 or 12 hours it takes me to read this book over a week or two, it's like I'm basically sitting here.

And then I know you've experienced this many times, Matt. You know, you're reading a good spiritual book and your heart starts to burn. Like there's a joy. There's just a thrill. There's an – like grace is at work. And, you know, what happens is like Mary's sitting at the feet of Jesus, like the Martha and Mary, Mary. She's sitting at the feet of Jesus, like the Martha and Mary, Mary. She's sitting at the feet of Jesus. Jesus is speaking to her, and God's Word is alive and active. Like, what Jesus is speaking and His gaze is transforming her.

And to me, good spiritual reading and also reading Scripture, like, there's something that happens. So, I mean, that's one of my primary ways of evangelizing. I'll try to get someone interested in a good book, like, you know, one of my favorite books to share is the book on Our Lady of Kibeho, The Apparitions of Our Blessed Mother that have been approved by the church in Rwanda, Africa. And it's like, listen, it's an awesome book. It's so easy to read. It's a story. People love reading stories, but it's mind-blowing. It's an awesome book. It's so easy to read. It's a story. People love reading stories, but it's mind-blowing. It's approved by the church. Tons of science went into investigating.

And to me, it's like, and it's our Blessed Mother. Like, when you get our Blessed Mother on the job, she works miracles, you know. So to me, if you can talk someone into taking a little bit of time to read a book, then it's like, okay, God, I'm giving you this person for 10 or 12 hours of meditating on your wonderful works through our Blessed Mother. And I know a lot of people, their conversion is when they finally sat down and with an open heart read, you know, something. And for them, it's like, okay, you know, I see, or I'm starting to see, you know, so. That's really great. I love that. Yeah. Because I think, you know, many of us might say, well, look, here's a great book on apologetics. And again, I'm not discouraging any of that, obviously.

But I love that. Like, here's a book on the saints, or here's a book on Our Lady, give it a read, let me know what you think. I think often we think we're kind of like neutral bypasses, and we have two people evangelizing us if you want to kind of divide it kingdom of god kingdom of darkness and sometimes in the world it's like you have the kingdom of satan evangelizing you and you just think that you're neutral to it and this is just the way things are you're engaging in these different activities you're believing certain things you're adopting a world view and you don't even realize why why it is you're adopting it but you're not really exposing

yourself to the kingdom of light. And so I love that idea of just like, here's a book that will expose you to that. Let's see what happens. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember my little brother once, he asked me when he was younger, he said, Mark, like, what's the way to make sure you always stay faithful to God and you kind of never lose your faith or lose your seeking first the kingdom? And the answer I told him, I was driving in my pickup truck. You know how you remember where you were, what you were doing? And I think it was a bit of an inspiration. And I just told him, I said, Andrew, spend your whole life reading good Catholic books. Yeah.

Because when you read a good Catholic book, it gets you stoked. I mean, I've always got a good Catholic book on the go. And it's why people comment and say, you're always excited about your faith. It's like, well, you don't realize what I just read. It gets so exciting. And so to me, if Catholics always had a good Catholic book on the goal, to me, it's like keeping a fire burning. You read a good book, you just do another log on the fire. Do me a favor. I'd love you to email me, say 10 books that you would recommend. And let's get those links. Let's put them in the description below so that when this comes out, people can

just have a look at what Father Mark Goring's top 10 book list or book suggestions might be for people who are in a place. That's really cool. Because we waste time watching The Office or some other television show on Netflix where fornication is joked about and all sorts of things like that. And we don't think it's having an impact on us. And meanwhile, you know, we're not reading Holy Scripture. We're not reading these good Catholic books. And we're wondering why it is we're not passionate about our Lord Jesus and evangelizing, you know? Yeah, yeah.

I heard a nice analogy recently from one of the, I think it was a desert fathers. It talked about like, what do I do with my stone heart, my heart of stone? What is it? What can break this? And the analogy was just like a water that constantly drips on a stone will eventually wear it away or cause an indentation or even dissolve it entirely, that the Word of God is like that. And that we should just continually read the Word of God and just trust that the Holy Spirit is at work in our life as we do it. I think one of the obstacles of God and just trust that the Holy Spirit is at work in our life as we do it. I think one of the obstacles that many people have when reading the Scriptures is that they think they have to feel a certain way while they read it. The words have to be

jumping off the page. I need to feel inspired. I need to feel enlightened as I read it. And then they go and read it. They don't feel that way and think that maybe they're failing at this, and so instead they put it aside and pick up something else. One of the graces in my life, my dad knew his Catholic faith quite well because he was in the seminary for many years. He met my mom, I guess, later in the seminary and got married, so he had good Catholic formation. So when I ask questions, and I never appreciated this until later in life, like, when I would ask my dad religious or Catholic or theological

questions, he had good answers, you know, and I only realized later, it's like, wait a minute, I kind of had a theologian in the house who knew his faith. But one of the things he taught me when I was kind of seeking the Lord is, he said, based on St. John of the Cross, like my dad's teaching me John of the Cross. He said, you know, the spiritual life has dark nights. And when you're seeking God, you will have moments of consolation and sweetness and delight. But you'll also have moments of dryness and emptiness and desert. And he said, those times of desert, we understand when they're properly understood, not when we're turning away from God, but when we're generally seeking Him and we experience

desert, that's actually God doing a deeper work in our life. And the saints knew to persevere through those times because God was doing something even more profound. And so my dad taught me that as a young person. And so I would pray every night before going to bed very, very wholeheartedly and read scripture. And my experience was I would have about three or four days of just delight and feeling God's presence and weeping over my sins and just, you know. And then I would have two or three days of dryness where it's like, okay, I don't think God exists anymore. But I knew what my dad told me. He said, no, like that's normal. That's okay.

And so I persevered through those times. And I even kind of say, okay, I'm going to believe that this is actually good, even though it feels so empty. And so I learned that in the spiritual life, you typically have a few days of nice consolation, then desolation, consolation. And sometimes a person might have a longer stretch of desolation or a longer stretch of consolation but um i feel sorry for people who enter into the spiritual life and they're not taught that it's like ah because you know like they they experience the lord they start seeking him they read scripture they pray and they just feel his presence and then they're brought through

a deeper level of purification and then they give up up. And it's like, oh, man, you're not supposed to give up. You're supposed to persevere through those. So like that. Yeah, after my conversion to Christ when I was 17, it was just like what you were saying. Like I would just, I didn't even know what the rosary was because no one taught me, unfortunately. And I would learn it and I would pray it before the statue of our Blessed Mother. I'd go to parties, you know, and like 10 at night, I'm bored. So I would make my way down to the church.

I'd get the spare key. Priests told me where it was. And I'd just go and kneel before a lady and pray with a friend who I would bring from the party to pray with me or something like that. But yeah, then there was times of desolation. I remember being like, okay. And then I'd go and I'd smoke pot with my friends. And I would kind of revert back to my ways like a dog to its vomit,

as St. Peter says, you know? Yeah. Hey, how did you become a priest? So, okay, so you were an atheist, you were raised Christian, you became atheist, you then had this experience of God. How did the priesthood come on the scene, and how did you join the seminary? One of the books I read was The Life of St. John Vianney, The Curia of Ours. the seminary one of the books i read was the life of saint john vianney the curia of ours it's a big thick though i read that big thick one the classic and you want to talk about hours of meditation and formation these little catholic books i mean they're written some of them are

written so well was this published by yeah they are Tan. Tan is such a great, great, great, great. So anyways, read that big, long book. Loved it. It was a bit of a theophany for me. Some of these books, when I read them, I look back and it's like, man, the Holy Spirit was just totally gracing me with his presence. So reading the book, it was just a powerful read. it was just a powerful read and with it came just just kind of a not a desire but almost even a fantasy about can you imagine like can you imagine i became a priest now you remember i'm the guy who thought he was a cool dude with my friends doing all the silly things into extreme sports love partying like you know never would have my friends thought of me like you know becoming

a priest would have been the the hugest loser thing you could imagine and i'm reading jean vianne i'm just saying like yeah imagine becoming a priest and with it came just that reflection on eternity where you know i know i know i have one life, and a hundred years are like a drop of water in the sea or a grain of sand, Scripture says. And I'm in love with God, and I believe in Jesus. I love reading his Gospels, the call to follow him. And I just, can you imagine? Like, just imagine becoming a priest. And then I eventually recognized that there became a persistent desire, dream you know what what if and and it was

like i think i think i and for me it was more like i think i need to to consider this and the way it was is my heart was so persistently dreaming of the priesthood and considering the priesthood that i knew if i don't pursue this i'm denying denying my heart. Like my heart is urging me to look into something. And I was just like, if I don't do this, I will live the rest of my life knowing that my heart was asking me to do something and I didn't do it. I couldn't live with that. So I joined the seminary. That's amazing.

Yeah, that's terrific. Glory to God. And Companions of the Cross, maybe as we wrap up, tell us a little bit about your fantastic religious order. Yeah, a new community of priests founded by Father Bob Bedard. I think we were founded in somewhere around 1985. Father Bob was a— I love that man. Yeah, a good man, holy man, A leader in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, also kind of one of the leaders in Orthodoxy.

He, kind of along the vein of, you know, Ralph Martin or, you know, Benedict Rochelle or Mother Angelica, or, you know, these people who are insistent that we have to be faithful to the Magisterium Orthodoxy, but also very much into the power of the grace of the Holy Spirit. And he started meeting with, there were young men who were discerning the priesthood, but were struggling with just some of the nonsense going on in the church. And so he would meet with them to support them, and that led to a sense that the Lord was calling them to form a new community, Companions of the Cross. And I found out about him by reading some of his little pamphlets, actually. And when I read Father Bob's writings, I was just like, oh my gosh, is this guy alive today? This guy writes like the saints. He writes like he knows God is real.

And he had a prophetic insight. At the time, it's like everyone was so discouraged about the church, and the big issues was, oh, there should be women priests, and there should be changes in the sexual morality teaching of the church. It was like a constant compromise and criticism and dissent. It's like almost all it was. And then here you have Father Bob talking about the power of the Holy Spirit, encountering Jesus, faithfulness to the Church, devotion to the Blessed Mother.

And he was also a comedian. The guy was hilarious. He reminds me of Peter Kreeft, actually. He's kind of got that world-weary humor. I love him so much. I remember being in his presence. And I heard people talk about John Paul II and Mother Teresa this way I remember standing and looking at him

and him looking at me and it felt like the world just dissolved away and it was just him looking at me you know yeah good holy man of God so join the companions of the cross I was 18 years old oh wow beautiful beautiful yeah

that's beautiful what would your advice be to somebody right now who is discerning the priesthood? Because I love that. One of the things Father Bob Bedard said that I've often quoted is, since discernment became fashionable, no one's made a decision since. I would say is, you know, we are, I really believe we're in a critical time in the history of the world and the church, and I think things are going to get worse before they get better. And I think the one thing the world needs, you know, perhaps more than anything else, is good, holy priests who are totally in love with the Lord Jesus, who believe in the Holy Eucharist, and who are willing to lay their lives down so that the people of God can be fed with the bread of life from heaven. If there's a young man who's considering the priesthood and you kind of have a wimpy mentality, it's not for you. The priesthood, it's not for the faint of heart. When you become a priest, you're entering into an intense battle.

It's a wonderful life. It's a joyful life. But it's for people who are serious about living for Jesus, living lives of prayer, have every desire to be, you know, uncompromised. But again, if there's a young man and you're feeling like, I feel like I'm up for that challenge, I feel called for that challenge, we desperately, the world desperately needs you to do God's will. And also, you know, the Lord promises, it's a mysterious thing, He promises reward, you know. If I was a theologian at the time of the Lord, I'd say, I don't know about reward. That's not proper theology, but he speaks of reward, and I think there is a reward when we make sacrifices for the Lord. And a life of celibacy is a huge sacrifice, but the Lord, when he calls, he also is faithful, you know, and he provides and he gives his presence and joy and fire. The priesthood, it's a thrilling life, you know, because you are on the front line of the spiritual kingdom building.

line of the spiritual kingdom building. And, you know, there's a wonderful grace that priests are given to be able to give spiritual life to people. So if you're a young man, you're discerning the priesthood, be courageous, you know, go for it. Take the steps. Take the steps you need to take. And then if people wanted to find your excellent YouTube channel, what would they type into YouTube? Father Mark Goring. That'll do it. I'll put a link below. Father, thank you kindly for being on the show. Can I ask you a question before we close?

Of course, yeah. Okay, so I've been wanting to ask you this. So I think about heaven a lot. For me, I sometimes wonder if I'm kind of being, I don't know what, irresponsible spiritually, because to me, heaven is moments away. Life is so short, eternity is so long. And so I have this practical kind of way of imagining, dreaming heaven that it's like day, real soon, I'm going to be, with the grace of God, I don't deserve it, you know, but I could be in a wonderful, beautiful, glorious place, reality, that is just indescribable. And I find myself dreaming, And I find myself dreaming, thinking, hoping for this wonderful reality. But the thing is, sometimes I feel like I'm. And why—first of all, Matt, do you think that's wrong or weird to think about heaven a lot?

I'm humbled to even try to answer you. I think when you're thinking of heaven, you're thinking about union with God. And to think about union with God is a good thing and something we ought to try to attain here on earth to the degree in which we can. So in that sense, I think it's appropriate. You're seeking the end for which you were created. You're desiring the end for which you were created. And I'm not sure how that can be a bad thing. Yeah.

I suppose somebody could neglect their duties and consider what another world would be like, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're saying. Well, I mean, I don't think I'm falling into that because thinking of heaven, it kind of drives me to be more faithful to the duty of the moment, to serve people, to not— And it puts your world in perspective. Yeah. You know, like this is less than a drop in the ocean. Like time flows and empties into eternity. And from the vantage point of heaven, I love how Teresa of Avila puts it, even the most difficult life will appear to be an inconvenient night in a poor,

a bad, you know, a rundown hotel. So, yeah, like when you consider like, here's what's coming and it's coming soon, I think we can fall into the trap of like thinking that this existence that we live in, you know, we wake up, we eat, we have coffee, we do this, we run around. It's like, this is over really soon, like really, really, really soon and sooner than you think probably. And so I think to consider the end for which we were made yeah glory to jesus christ if that empowers you to evangelize and to cool out sin i mean that i think well the proof is in the fruit there i i think too like how we began this interview like we talked about our work

of trying to wake the whole world up to the reality of the Son of God, that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. And to me, I find the eternal perspective and the hope of heaven, it just drives me. It's like, this is a moment. This is our moment, you know? Yeah. I love that you think of it that way. It's so easy to get so discouraged by the world and to forget about pushing outward to the peripheries, as Pope Francis says, to bring all people into the bark of Peter. It can be scary. When you're in a chaotic time, I think you just want to bunker down.

You just want to circle the wagons of tradition, as it were, and maintain that. And I'm all about tradition. But there's got to be this sort of apostolic zeal that propels us. It seems to me that, you know, and I know a lot of the other leaders who are speaking out, whether it's on YouTube or other means, you know, it seems to me all of us, this is our moment. You know, this is our time to proclaim the kingdom of God wholeheartedly, boldly, to not be afraid. Again, eternity is so close. It's just moments away. And, you know, the next generations will, they will wish, they will long, like, why didn't the people of this time, why didn't they have a wholehearted, even a martyr mentality to fight, you know, for the glory, the dignity of the church and to proclaim the gospel? So yeah, I really hope your viewers who feel or who know that, you know, they're called to engage in the new evangelization

and building the kingdom, I hope we can all kind of seize the moment. And you too, Matt. Like I said, you have a tremendous influence and you're very gifted. And so, yeah, please keep doing what you're doing. I appreciate it. One of the things I say to people like you who I love and trust is call me on it. Like if I start to go off the rails or if I'm like, you know, being fuzzy or if I'm like tiptoeing into heresy, like rebuke me. I got like several friends like that who I'm like, I need, you know, what do I know?

I need you to call me. And I've had a couple of people do that. Not heresy, but just like do not do this. Do not do this upcoming thing that you are saying you're going to do. I'm like, okay, why? And I really, really, really am open to being fraternally corrected. Yeah, and I'm the same. I even tell my viewers, I say, listen, we're trying to figure this out together.

I read your comments, and sometimes, the odd time I'll make a video, and generally the comments section, people are so encouraging. But the odd time, they'll just attack me. Not attack me, but they'll make a video and, you know, like generally the comments section, people are so encouraging. But the odd time they'll just attack me. Not attack me, but they'll get on my case and I'll be like, yeah, thank you. I receive it. You know, I appreciate because we're all trying to figure this out together. And, yeah, we don't want to get on the wrong track. So anyways, it's such an honor to be with you, Matt.

Thanks for having me. Thank you, Father. Hey, thanks so much for watching this interview with Father Mark Goring. I want to invite you to consider becoming a patron over at patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. When you do, we send you a bunch of free things in return, like this Pints with Aquinas beer stein that you often see me holding, brandishing. It's not available anywhere else except for Patreon. So if you want to become a patron, you'll get that. Books that I've written will be sent to your door, stickers, you get access to all the online courses that we produce. And hopefully more than any of this,

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