Pints With Aquinas - Overcoming Toxic Productivity (and the Virtue of Play)

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

Pull up a barstool with me and relax. I mean it! We need to relax. This week’s episode of “Pints with Aquinas” is all about overwork, why technology makes us more stressed, and how to find true rest and leisure. We’re going to look at a pretty hard-hitting argument from Aquinas for why we need to be joyful and get some pleasure in our lives. We’ll also talk about:  - What is true rest for the soul (the answer may surprise you)  - The difference between true leisure and distraction  - The sin of not playing (yes, this is for real)  - Some practical tips for detaching yourself from technology   Download my FREE ebook, "You Can Understand Aquinas," now!   SPONSORS Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/ Catholic Chemistry: https://www.catholicchemistry.com/   GIVING Patreon or Directly: https://pintswithaquinas.com/support/  This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer co-producer of the show.   LINKS Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PintsWithAquinas Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pints_w_aquinas Gab: https://gab.com/mattfradd   MY BOOKS Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

G'day and welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd. If you're new here and you like the stuff I'm about to say, you'll only know that after I've said it, of course, you might click subscribe and then that bell button below. And that way YouTube will be forced to let you know whenever we put out a new video. And given that this is a Christian YouTube channel, it amounts to making YouTube evangelize you, which I don't know if they're thrilled about, but it's an option for you. So feel free. Today, I want to talk about what Thomas Aquinas has to say about play and the virtue of play. Is it a virtuous thing to play? What becomes of a man if he chooses not to engage in play, which is an activity we engage in for its own sake, not for some other end. I want to talk about sort of toxic productivity. This has been something I've been hearing about more and more these days. And just how to calm ourselves a little bit.

If you know me, if you've been following my work for a while, you know that I tend not to have a happy relationship with my iPhone and with computers. I know it's ironic. I get that I run a YouTube channel and this is basically my job now, but I hate it actually. Not my job, but I do hate phones, generally speaking, and computers. In fact, the reason this video is premiering instead of streaming live is because I am currently at a cabin on a lake, laying down probably. I'm so excited about it. It's been a very tough few months for us, for my family.

A lot of sickness, a lot of stress for different reasons that we haven't even kind of gone into publicly. But my wife and I, my wife's doing a lot better, and she's taking a break, I'm taking a break, just to kind of get our head above water. And so I've got a friend who is a priest who is allowing me to use his cabin for a few days. So glory to Jesus Christ. So that kind of fits in well with what we're talking about today.

I remember when I first moved to America being stunned at how quickly y'all moved and how busy y'all were. And now I think I might accidentally have become just as busy as the rest of you. I actually remember one of the first things I noticed in America, y'all get your mail on Saturdays, at least this back in 2006 you did. Now I think it's Saturdays and Sundays. I remember telling my wife how depressed I was about that, that you can't even have a two-day weekend. In fact, my first job in America, my employer said to me,

when would you like your day off to be? Sorry, I thought you said day. I did. Right. I think we need to just relax a little and we need to calm down a little. And I think it's become increasingly difficult to do that given the fact that you and I walk around with the internets, internets, the internet in our pockets. One of the things I just can't stand is how people text you and expect you to respond to them as if they had just said something to you in the same room as you. Does that make sense? So if you came into this office and you went, hey, excuse me, it would be rude for me to ignore you. I would go, yeah, hey, what's up? People text, and I do at times like that as well. I text you expecting an

immediate response. We even have that feature now on iPhone. I don't know what it's like on Android, where it will tell you whether or not the text message has been read. So I say, hey, what's up? If you don't get back to me right away and I can see that you've read it, I'm hurt. And it just puts us into this frantic state that isn't healthy. So much more to say about that. Man, am I looking forward to ranting. Anyway, I want to show you what Aquinas has to say about play. One of the beautiful things about Aquinas is he addresses almost everything. And you probably didn't expect that he was going to address the virtue of being playful, but he does. So two things I want to look at today is, let's see, where are we here

in the secunda secundae? That means the second part of the second part of the Summa Theologiae, which is a work of Aquinas. Question 186, we're going to look at the second and the fourth article. The second is, can there be virtue about playful actions? The fourth is the sin consisting in lack of play. Okay. So, Aquinas says this. Just as man, man, man and woman, just as man needs bodily rest for the body's refreshment because he cannot always be at work since his power is finite and equal to a certain fixed amount of labor, I can only build something for so long. I can only run for so long. And I can only really think deeply about things for so long. I can only be sort of intellectually on trying to understand something for so long. And if you are maybe a grad student or if you're maybe even in high school, you can only kind of do it for so long. You can have as much coffee as you like, but eventually you just sort of shut down, right? Consequently, says Aquinas, when man goes beyond his measure in a certain work, he is oppressed and becomes weary.

And all the more since when the soul works, the body is at work likewise. That's very interesting. Insofar as the intellective soul employs forces that operate through bodily organs. Does that make sense? So, for example, you might be able to do manual labor without engaging your intellect. But you can't engage your intellect without also engaging your body. Did you get that? Let me read it again. Consequently, when man goes beyond his measure in a certain fixed work, he is oppressed and becomes weary. And all the more, since when

the soul works, okay, the intellect, the spiritual part of us, the body is also at work insofar as the intellective soul employs forces that operate through bodily organs, right? So I'm reading, I'm thinking with my brain, et cetera. Now, sensible goods are conatural to man. And therefore, when the soul arises above sensibles through being intent on the operations of reason, the results in consequence, a certain weariness of soul, whether the operations with which it is occupied be those of the practical or of the speculative reason. So maybe I'm doing philosophy, maybe I'm wondering how much money I need to pay you, you know, either way. Yet this weariness is greater if the soul be occupied with the work of contemplation, since thereby it is raised higher above sensible things.

Although perhaps certain outward works of the practical reason entail a greater bodily labor. On either case, however, one man is more soul-wearied than another, according as he is more intensely occupied with works of reason. Now, just as weariness of the body is dispelled by resting the body, so weariness of the soul must needs be remedied by resting the soul. And the soul's rest, what do you think that is? So if the body's rest is sleep, the soul's rest is pleasure. Consequently, the remedy for weariness of soul must needs consist in the application of some pleasure by slackening the tension of reason study. Listen to this. This is a very lovely anecdote. John the Evangelist, that when some people were scandalized on finding him playing together with his disciples, he is said to have told one of them who carried a bow to shoot an arrow.

And when the latter had done this several times, he asked him whether he could go on doing that indefinitely. And the man answered that no, right? If he continued doing it, the bow would break. Whence the blessed John drew the inference that in like manner, man's mind would break if its tension were never relaxed. So when I feel soul weary, not necessarily weary bodily, right? I might be sleeping well through the night, but there's a weariness about me. It's like my intellect, my intellectual faculties, my mind, as it were, my soul is stretched tight, and I need to relieve that tension, yeah? All right. Now, Aquinas continues. Now, such like words and deeds, wherein nothing further is sought than the soul's delight,

wherein nothing further is sought than the soul's delight are called playful or humorous. So we play not in order to get something. Play, properly speaking, is done for itself. Does that make sense? So if I say, why are you playing? And you say to get money or to win a trophy. At that point, you're not really playing. You're doing something else. But if I'm wrestling with my son on the bed, you know, and you're like, why are you doing that?

Well, I guess I might say because he enjoys it or because I enjoy it, but that's kind of what I mean by just because, like I'm doing it for its own sake. That's the beauty of play, isn't it? That's the beauty of play, isn't it? Hence, it is necessary at times to make use of them in order to give rest, as it were, to the soul. This is in agreement with the statement of the philosopher that in the intercourse of this life, there is a kind of rest associated with games, and consequently, it is sometimes necessary to make use of such games. Right now, Aquinas is going to go on to say that this pleasure can't be inordinate. That is to say, it can't be sinful, obviously. We can't be seeking the pleasure at the expense of other people, like practical jokes that would actually embarrass somebody in a significant way, not just in a jokey way that they appreciate.

in a significant way, not just in a jokey way that they appreciate, right? And it also has to be sort of, you know, after we've fulfilled our duties, we can't be playing at the expense of something we ought to be doing. All right. Now, here's what I want to say. It seems to me that many of the things that you and I engage in today for relaxation don't actually relax us. And I think that has something to do with our addiction, using the term loosely, with technology, with social media, with streaming services. It seems to me that our phones are both the cause and relief of much of our stress. You know this. You feel stressed out, you're bored. You're anxious. What do you do? I mean, I was in an elevator the other day and I just wanted to grab my phone and look at it because just to stand there saying nothing, doing nothing felt awkward, you know? So when you feel

awkward or anxious or stressed, you, like many people, pull out your phone and start looking at it, right? In a way, it relieves the anxiety, but I think it also causes the anxiety. You know, you throw something out on the Twitterverse and someone's upset about what you said, and then that makes you anxious, right? You send an email and you're waiting for a reply. And even if you're not waiting for a particular email that day, you're still refreshing your email just in case somebody has something they want to send you. It's like we're in this constant state of, what do you say, expectation? You know, someone sends you a text, they expect a text back. Someone sends you a text, you're busy at that moment, but then there's something in the back of your brain that says, oh, right, I need

to respond to them. Or gosh, what have I forgotten to do this? And I don't know about you, but I am tired of living like that and have been for several years now. And so have been putting things into my life, you know, structures, rules, disciplines, so that I can have time for play, as it were, for relaxation, because that's not what this is. Let me ask you another question. Have you ever had the experience of laying in bed, maybe watching a video on Netflix or something, but then you open up another window and you're searching through your social media? So you're not even watching the video that's playing. You're just listening to it at this point,

watching social media, reading it, scrolling through it. Maybe you get a text message and you pause and look at that. Does it need to be said that this is not how you rest? Evidently, because if rest is what we want, that's not how we're going to find it. You know the experience of putting down the laptop and the phone and you don't feel rest, you feel agitated. And maybe you've had the experience of trying to sit and just be, just be, but you seem unable to do it. I want to share with you a quotation from philosopher Joseph Pieper, who, by the way, wrote an excellent book on Thomas Aquinas, if you're interested. Listen to what he says here. Leisure is only possible when we are at one with ourselves. only possible when we are at one with ourselves. We tend to overwork, and here I would add, go on social media, post on YouTube, right, as a means of self-escape, as a way of trying to

justify our existence. Wow, how brutal is that? 17th century philosopher Pascal famously said that all of the problems of man come back to the fact that he doesn't know how to sit alone in a dark room silently. And so I've had that experience actually not too long ago where I wanted to just relax. I had just completed narrating my audio book that will be out soon, a couple of weeks now. It's going to be called How to Be Happy, St. Thomas's Secret to a Good Life. It'll be released on Audible the same time. But anyway, I spent a whole week reading the book every morning from like 9 to 11. It's quite tiring work because you can't mess up. You have to keep restarting if there's something even slightly off, even your intonation if it's off. Anyway, so I got to the end of the week and I just thought, I'm going to sit out on the front

stoop and I'm going to have a cigar and a beer just to celebrate. And I did it. And I just, I was anxious. I wanted to pick up my computer. I wanted to look at YouTube. I wanted to look, I even was tempted to do a live stream and to tell y'all about this achievement, you know, as if I don't know how to sit alone with myself, which is exactly the case. achievement, you know, as if I don't know how to sit alone with myself, which is exactly the case. And in my own life, I'm finding that, and this might just be me, really, it might just be me and people kind of like me, my temperament. I need to leave the phone and the computer at work so that it's not even a temptation, because sometimes the temptation to look at the computer at work so that it's not even a temptation because sometimes the temptation to look at the computer, even if I don't end up looking at it, is tiring enough.

So for me personally, removing that temptation altogether has been really helpful. So again, the reason this is premiering right now is because I'm laying on a couch somewhere with a book and I don't have this computer and I don't have this phone and I'm loving it. Right. That's been really helpful for me. Something I've been doing lately is really choosing to live my weekends at a slower tempo, taking naps. And it's funny too, like people contact me and they say, Hey, I was wondering if you could maybe do this. I know you're really busy. I'm like, and there's a and there's a temptation to be like, yeah, I am really busy. But it's like, no, I'm not. I'm actually not busy, but I don't want to do that thing you want me to do. That's why. Why? Well, what are you doing? Well, I'm laying down. That's what I plan on doing. I'm wrestling with

my son. I'm building a beehive with him. I am actually doing that right now. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm chatting with my wife. I'm going, I don't want to do whatever it is you want me to do. Is that too harsh? I don't think it is. Maybe you're not being harsh enough. Maybe that's the problem, right? People don't have like even, even, um, look, I'll just be honest about it. Like somehow, I guess my old email address got out on the web and I get tons of emails from people, well-meaning, beautiful people who I regret in one sense not being able to respond to, but in another, I don't because I don't want to spend time replying to you. It's not that I don't even have the time. Even if I did, I wouldn't do it because I want to sit, talk with friends, read a book. So maybe that's the lesson I'd like to share with you if there's one to be had here. And it's that you don't have to apologize for not getting back to somebody, especially if that somebody is someone on the peripheries of your friend group.

I mean, if it's your employer, then maybe you have a responsibility to get back to them. But if it's just some random person who texts you every five months, and you might be watching me and you might be that random person who texts me personally, and you might be thinking, why doesn't Matt write back to me? That's kind of why. I mean, it's nothing personal. It's just that I want to do other things. And if I was to, honestly, if I was to spend time only responding to emails and text messages, not only would it take up a significant chunk of my day, but I would actually find myself scattered because text messages and emails come in all throughout the day, you know? And it might just be the fact that I'm not very good at planning to set time aside in order to do it. But even that is an extra burden that I just don't want to do. So I don't do it.

So it's nothing personal to you if you've written to me. I just, and I haven't written back to you. Sometimes I'm just bad at it. I just, I don't want to do it. So I'll leave my phone at the office and I'll go home and be with my kids. And I'll come back Monday morning. That's the first time I see my phone, you know, and I've got a ton of text messages from people. And I'm learning to not care if they felt ignored,

because I have more important things to do than to respond to you. Quite honestly, like I don't say that in a snobbish way, but like it's more important that I be with my wife and my kids, that I be calm and at peace than responding to frigging, like, who are you? And I say that in order to hopefully teach you that you can have that same attitude to other people. By the way, in settings, you can turn off the feature that shows the other person whether you've read their text message or not. Keep them in the dark, I say. But back to Peeper's point here, we do tend to plunge ourself headlong into distractions in order to evade ourself. Because it's us we don't want to be with.

And I think part of growing in peace, coming to peace with yourself is not constantly distracting yourself. You might actually find that you are able to sit still for longer than you thought if you would just put away the distractions. So, oh man, I've shared this story before, but Matt Walsh from the Daily Wire, friend of mine, several years ago, I listened to a podcast of his. I'd say it was about four years ago now, three or four. He released a podcast on social media and how it's stupid. And I just totally agreed with it. And I was so moved by it that I actually hired a social media guy and got off social media. I even had him change my passwords. And, you know, like I'm not on social media. You might think I am. I have people post stuff for me that seem disingenuous.

I don't care what you think about that. Will you not follow me now? Because it's not me tweeting you every 10 minutes. Like, don't care. Don't care. Don't need you to follow me. I don't want to live a life like that. Again, I get that I'm coming off super aggressive. Sorry, my wife keeps telling me not to do that. But like you should do the same. You should delete Facebook and Twitter and Instagram now.

Your life would be way better. And no, no, like St. Paul probably wouldn't have been on Twitter. I know people say that. Why would he be? It's just a garbage heap, a flaming garbage truck promote interviews that I do with people. So that's why I maintain it for that reason and for that reason alone. But I mean, you think of the pressure that academics are under these days to continually publish in the appropriate academic journals, to stay relevant. If you get a PhD, that's not enough. You've got to be publishing, right?

Irrelevant. Like if you get a PhD, like that's not enough. You got to be you got to be publishing. Right. Some people choose not to and, you know, good for them if that's not what they feel called to. But in a sense, we all now have taken on that burden of the academic. If you don't publish frequently on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or wherever the bloody hell you publish, you'll soon become irrelevant. And the, you know, the algorithms won't be in your favor. Just, oh, for goodness sake, you know? Just crash it. I'll be honest with you. There's a part of me that wants YouTube to ban me.

I don't know how significant that part is, or how, like what percentage I would ascribe to it, maybe 50%. You know, YouTube has been known to cancel people who have conservative views, Christian views. Part of me is like, just come at me. Come at me. I don't know how I'd make money, but there's part of me that just wants to kind of fade into oblivion. I don't know. That is how I feel. And maybe I don't really mean that. Maybe it would happen and I'd become very anxious and scared about the whole thing. But anyway, it's a love-hate relationship I have with this stuff. They're dissociative. They're not restorative.

Right? Like they take us out of ourselves. They distract us from ourselves. But they don't restore us to be better human beings. So. Glory to Jesus Christ. You might want to consider doing something serious. Like something that looks crazy.

You might want to take a day, when you can, to lay down and just don't do anything else. What about food? I'll have a bit of food. Bring it with you. Eat it while you're laying down. This hyper-productivity can be in opposition to the receptivity God wants from us. I mean, think about it like your earthly existence, your sanctification, your salvation.

These are not things you produce and these are the most important things in your life. So you can kind of fall into the trap of always producing and you no longer know how to receive sit open up receive yeah especially in a day and age like this where there's always a way to make a buck i mean there's a thousand different ways online patreon or teespring or youtube or etsy like there's always a way to make another dollar and so it can be a really kind of prudent and virtuous thing to be like, yeah, I don't want to make, I don't want to make it. I want to go and lay down on a couch that I've bought and no longer need to pay off. And so therefore don't need to make any extra money for the lying down. I now will be partaking in, you see. That's what I think. All right. I

want to say, I want to say a few more things that i hope will be helpful you know you hope things would be helpful sometimes they're not but uh nevertheless i want to say thank you to hallo now you guys have heard me talk about hallo before now certainly phones can be irritating and i actually do think you should get rid of your phone if you can. But one thing that can make it easier is hallow. Because it's 100% Catholic. And it helps you to pray. And it's got Bible stories.

It's got Lectio Divina. It'll lead you through the Holy Rosary. It's got a lot of great options. A lot of people are feeling frantic today. And again, I think they're feeling frantic because they're under this constant need to respond or this sensed obligation that I must respond, get back to people, et cetera. So if you can't break your phone right away, which you and I think should do, not give it away, don't put that burden on somebody else, smash it, then you might want to go at least join Halo. Halo.com slash Matt Fradd. Halo.com slash Matt Fradd. 100% Catholic. It will help calm you because prayer does that.

It will help relax you because prayer does that. It's very well produced. It's actually got, I think it is the number one downloaded app as far as Catholic apps on the Apple Store. You can get it for free, but there's a lot of content you'll miss unless you sign up. So go to hallow.com slash MattFrag, click the link in the description below,

and you'll get access to the entire app for free for a whole month. And you can just try it out before deciding if you want to go any further so anyway let's say let's see what aquinas has to say about um the sin of not playing right so not only is aquinas saying there's virtue to play he asked the question whether there is a sin that results from not playing. And he's going to say, yeah, which is interesting. Here's his, well, first of all, his said contra is, he quotes Aristotle by saying that lack of joy, lack of mirth is a vice. Wow, man, I just let that sink in.

How many times am I walking around pouting and upset and frustrated? It's like, it's a sin to be like that, actually. You know, if you can help it, and often we can. So Aquinas says, in human affairs, whatever is against reason is a sin. Now, it is against reason for a man to be poor. Man, my wife, if she don't tell her, don't tell her Aquinas said this. It is against reason for a man to be burdensome to others. I love my wife. She loves me, but I can be melancholic and moody sometimes. Can you tell? Can you tell? It is against reason for a man to be burdensome to others by offering no pleasure to others and by hindering their enjoyment.

Wherefore, Seneca says, let your conduct be guided by wisdom so that no one will think you rude or despise you as a cad. Now, a man who is without mirth not only is lacking in playful speech, but is also burdensome to others since he is deaf to the moderate mirth of others. Consequently, they are vicious and are said to be boorish or rude. So if you're without joy, you're vicious, boorish and rude. Aquinas says, since, however, mirth is useful for the sake of the rest and pleasure it affords, pleasures it affords, and since in human life, pleasure and rest are not in quest for their own sake. Man, that's good. But for the sake of operation, as stated in the ethics,

it follows that lack of mirth is less sinful than excess thereof. Okay. So you don't want to be a bore and you don't want to be a buffoon. And so the thing, the virtue of playfulness, which is, I think, a virtue in and of itself, ought to bring about is sort of like the mean between the extremes of being a boar and being a buffoon, right? Like an appropriate mirth, an appropriate joy. Hence, the philosopher says, we should make few friends for the sake of pleasure, since but little sweetness suffices to season life, just as little salt suffices for our meat. Oh man, can we just pause and talk about that? You don't need many friends. Stop it. I don't think you can be friends with like more than seven. Okay.

You might be able to have a hundred acquaintances. I don't think you can have too many more than that. You could maybe have a sort of circle of 15 to 20 people that you commune with on a regular basis. But I don't know if you can have more than like seven friends who are really close. Mate, what do you think? So all these people who are texting and emailing you and Facebook messaging and Instagram messaging and all that, just like they go away. They can go do other things. They don't need your response right now. All right. So was that boorish? I'm sorry if that was boorish. Okay. I have some questions that have come in from Patreon regarding this topic.

And I want to say thank you to everybody who does support me on Patreon. It helps us do the work that we're doing. We are about to launch a Spanish arm of Pints with Aquinas called Tequila con Aquino. Tequila with Aquinas, since Pints doesn't really translate in Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries. It's gonna cost money. I gotta hire somebody to do this. I'm hiring a marketing team for that Spanish-speaking branch.

I'm hiring other people to do video editing for that. So this definitely costs money. All of this stuff I'm doing, I think, is an investment. So if you wanna support the work I'm hiring other people to do video editing for that. Right. So this definitely costs money. This is all of this stuff I'm doing, I think, is an investment. So if you want to support the work I'm doing, go to pintswithaquinas.com slash support. And you can give directly to me or you can give via Patreon if you want. Big thanks. Man, we have a lot of questions. I'd like to apologize in advance to those patrons who are hoping I will get to their question because I may not be able to.

There are a lot here. Anthony Bedoy says, are you feeding my addiction by posting this asking for questions? Yeah, maybe, but that's not necessarily my fault. Could be yours. This is the other nice thing about being a patron. I get to blame you for things.

So if you don't already feel bad about yourself, you ask, I blame you, make you feel bad. That's another advantage. At what point does cell phone use become sinful? I think it can become sinful for many reasons. You could be avoiding duty in order to look and play on your phone. That would be a sin. The curiosity, according to Aquinas, is a sin. Right? He opposes curiosity on one hand from studiousness on the other

curiosity is sort of the desire for knowledge sort of trivial knowledge I think or just knowledge that you don't really need to know that doesn't actually do you any good honestly I think listening to political podcasts would probably come under that a lot of the time. Like you really don't need to know every single day what's taking place in the country from three different podcasters. You know, even this, like this, this could be a source of sin for you. If you're just kind of binging this stuff and you got other things to do.

Or it's like this is unhelpful to you. Stop listening to me. I get, I get it. I get the irony of it. But I still think it's like this is unhelpful to you. Stop listening to me. I get it. I get the irony of it, but I still think it's true. Philip says, Philip Smith, thanks for being a patron. It seems more so the culture than the technology itself is pushing mankind ever closer to mimicking machines rather than seeking authentic humanity.

How does this hinder our contemplative prayer life and what are the benefits of slower living for Catholics? Great questions, Philip. I like to apologize in advance for my less than great answers. I think you're right. I think like one of the tendencies is we kind of treat prayer in a mechanical fashion. I pray a novena, therefore I will get this thing in result. I put on the brown scapula and therefore will get salvation, even if I'm only using it in a sort of magical sense. I pray a rosary so as not to fall into sins of impurity, and therefore I should get that, you know, rather than the intimacy that prayer ought to bring about.

So you could just resist technology to the degree that you are cool or want to be cool. My friend Mark Barnes, who is in the same building as me, he's a fantastic guy and I love him. He works with New Polity and he's got a flip phone and he's really bad about charging it. And I don't even think he owns a car. Maybe they have a car, but he just walks to work. He hates cars. And so he's way cooler than me. He's like where I want to end up, but I think we can do what we can. Shelly Cahill says, is an addiction to pints of the Aquinas a problem? Yes, it would be. I know you're probably joking, but it is. Justin McGee says, Matt, what about being addicted to productivity in general,

like the inability to sit and rest, the constant Martha-esque need to be up cleaning or working on something? Maybe not related, but thought I'd ask. That's a good point. I mean, our inability to sit in mess might come from many different sources. I interviewed Christopher West recently. And by the way, that interview was one, I think probably my favorite interview of all time. So if you haven't listened to it,

think about listening to it. Because we talk about how it's like our inability to sit and see our own mess or our fear that our mess will cause others to walk away from us and not love us is maybe what leads to us not being able to sit in any kind of mess in our own home but yeah now certainly that can be that can be a legit thing to deal with my mom she used to say probably still says i'm gonna have a cup of coffee and i'm gonna sit my ass down that's what going to sit my ass down.

That's what she says. Sit my ass down. I'm not bloody getting up. And I think that was her way of committing to the sit, you know, as opposed to sitting down and, oh, the phone's ringing or something else is going on, you know. That's actually one thing I actually loved about my folks and really appreciated about them. We had like one phone bolted into the wall growing up and my dad would take that phone off the hook during dinner time. And actually we just take the phone off the hook in general

because he didn't want anyone to contact him. I love it. I think it's beautiful. I mean, you compare the avenues for being constantly distracted 50 years ago and then now today. I mean, it's unreal. If you want to live a calmer, slower human life,

you have to violently break away from many of these things, I would say. What do you reckon? Josh J says, what's the capacity to control our job demanding on-call expectations? I can understand a call to disconnect in our domestic lives, but to what extent should we be risking professional opportunities? Should we simply be looking for other careers? And would you, we, go so far as to suggest Catholics shouldn't enter those fields at all? I mean, this is one of the kind of pernicious things about technology, right? It's supposed to save us time, but ends up stealing it, right? And like

one example would be, ah, look, you know, like I only can do my work at the office, but hey, now I've got a personal computer. Well, that'll save me some time. I don't have to go into the office as much, but then your home life becomes your work life and it's not where you rest anymore. So, you know, yeah, I think like putting up definite boundaries with people at work to the degree you're able is a very important thing to do. That's why a lot of the time, as I already pointed out, I don't text people back because sometimes the text doesn't even, it's not even a question. Hey, I'm having a great day today. Like I'm at the lake. Cool. Why are you writing me then? I don't care. And you shouldn't care to tell me that kind of thing.

You know, Dominic says, I think the difficult part about a topic of being addicted to productivity is that it isn't black and white yeah that's a good point I think it would be helpful if you gave an example of toxic the toxic situation so I mean we all want to better ourselves

and there is certainly virtue in wanting to grow in certain areas be better at running a marathon or just running a marathon at all, making more money for our family in order to do things that we wouldn't be able to do with that money. Educate ourselves by reading some classical fiction or whatever, reading dense books on theology. And there's definitely virtue to that. reading dense books on theology, right? And there's definitely virtue to that.

But, gosh, I mean, do I even have to say it? I mean, there are times where it just interferes with our most cherished relationships, with our relationship with God, and lead to us being unable to sit still. I mean, honestly, like, if you think that you're not really sure if you're kind of addicted to this kind of, like, productivity thing, maybe sit down once a day for an hour and not do anything for that hour. Just try it once.

Just go sit down for an hour. If you're unable to do that, that's probably a sign that you are wound up very tightly. And I'm probably like that. And so you do need to make some serious changes in your life, I think. Sean says, Sean Hurley, thanks for being a patron. This one for me, don't know if I'll be able to bring myself to watch it. How do you mean wean yourself off of it? Or should it be cold turkey? What is a good strategy if I'm using my computer for studying, working from home still? I say to myself, I'll take breaks,

quick five minutes, looking at the phone becomes an hour. Can I suggest another thing? I'm going to, there's no one to say no. So Covenant Eyes is a great app, right? That helps block inappropriate content and makes it such that you can't access pornographic content. But the other cool thing about Covenant Eyes is you can actually block websites altogether. You can create a blacklist as it were. And so I have Carvanerize on all my devices. I also can't access Twitter because I've blacklisted the site. So even though I go to Twitter not necessarily afraid that I'll look at pornography, I just cut it out of my – it's not even an option for me. So using Carvanerize in that regard, maybe blocking

YouTube, maybe blocking Twitter for a month or, you know, every night or something like that could be really helpful. You know, William Rothwell says, not a question, but one of the best essays I've read on this subject, or honestly, one of the best essays I've read, period, is Patricia Snow's, Look at me, really, really. Oh, no, just look at me. And then he says, really, really recommend it. Thank you so much. With first things. Awesome.

Connor Kurtz, considering the fact that society all but requires you to be on the internet in order to function, is the spiritual harm being done to the generation by the internet reversible? Don't ask me. I'm such a pessimist. Probably not. We're all screwed. Or should we just stop the bleeding? I think we've got to find a way to reverse it. And that might mean being ostracized socially. But I think it's worth it. to be is regarding technology. You know, to get to the question that was asked before about how to deal with this, you know, like studying from home, working from home, is it a good strategy?

What do I do with it? I mean, one of the reasons I have an office outside of the home is I need a studio where I can record and interview people. But it's also because I need to distinguish home life from work life. And that really helps me do that. So leaving my computer at the office actually really helps because then I go home and there's no computer to use. You might say, well, you'll just use your phone. And that is true. But on the weekends, I leave my phone here as well. And sometimes some nights I do as well.

And so that could be another thing you do. Okay, let's see. Dominic Dallisandri, thank you for being a patron. Also, it would be good to hear an example when you just have to work really hard, which I'm sure you do to make your show happen and explain why that situation isn't toxic. Yeah. So I think that if I'm not avoiding responsibilities and I'm not engaging in work to distract myself from myself, to dissociate, and I'm putting thing in the sort of proper hierarchy, I'm not choosing to not go to mass or not pray or not meditate or not do other things that I know give me life, then I think it's, yeah, it's not, of course it's not toxic. I'm not saying

productivity is toxic, obviously, but I'm saying it can become toxic when it gets in the way of our most cherished relationships or our relationship with God, or we use it to the degree that we no longer know how to sit still and enjoy something truly leisurely as opposed to merely dissociative. Lewis, I know the root of all of it is dopamine addiction, much like pornography and sugar. So the only question I would have is if you've found or discovered or know of ways to manage it. I mean, I can't say much more than I've already said. Mark says, how much sleep do you get? I usually go to bed around 10, wake up about six. Robert Bishop, thank you for being a patron, patron says i believe this would be an amazing opportunity to bring up sloth ah excellent he says many believe sloth is purely doing nothing but there's a far more sinister unseen side that is constant stimulation one essentially allows for no rest being lazy about being lazy about rest yeah oh that's a good that's a really interesting point

i'd never thought of that robert being lazy about rest because rest takes Oh, that's a good, that's a really interesting point. I'd never thought of that, Robert. Being lazy about rest. Because rest takes effort. That's his point, right? Rest takes strength. It takes a decision, right? Like, I got to decide to put my phone away and rest, which can be hard. That's an excellent point. One essentially allows for no rest, being lazy about rest. I'm going to remember that one, Robert. That was excellent. Workaholics leave no time for family or other responsibilities. Many people are addicted to this constant stimulation through phone, YouTube, et cetera. It's relaxation, but there's no rest. I find myself many times feeling wearied about going to the bathroom without my phone. Oh, bless you, Robert. And many others in the developed world suffer the same inclination.

Bless you, bless you, bless you. He says, rest though, what actually is rest? I would say rest is that which restores. That would be like a basic kind of definition off the top of my head. But I get such an excellent, honest point. Like I think when people first were walking around with smartphones, it was an embarrassing thing to be caught on your phone in the toilet. And now it's just a reality we've all accepted because we're all so kind of addicted to them. Again, maybe using that in the loose sense. I don't know.

But yeah, like maybe just choosing to not take your phone to the toilet forever. See how you do. Very honest. Very good point. Dan says, and this will be the final question, part of the problem is that there are so many trackers and cookies used throughout the internet that much of what we see on social media, ads, etc., is customized to keep us clicking. Have you used any anti-tracker services such as DuckDuckGo for search?

That's really cool. ProtonMail for email to remove yourself from this. I haven't. Maybe I should, but I appreciate the suggestion. My friends, I thank you for being here. And I really mean this. I would love to hear your thoughts and wisdom as it pertains to rest, play, avoiding a sort of toxic productivity, a go, go, go world. And maybe what we could do as a kind of community here on YouTube is to thumbs up the comments that we found particularly helpful. And I look forward to reading them in the comment section below. God bless you. Thank you for being here. Subscribe if you want to or don't. But if

there was one takeaway from this, I would say you've got to find something to do. Find some kind of practical thing that you can do after watching this video. And that might be not using the internet for the rest of the day. It might mean choosing this weekend to leave your phone and computer at work or at least giving them to a friend. See, I'm that bad. Just turning them off isn't enough for me because I just think, well, I'll just quickly check this one thing and then I'm down the rabbit hole, you know. But as I've already said to you, I have left my phone and computer away. I'm currently at a lake house, which is why this

is not streaming live. And I'm really enjoying laying on a couch. At least I'm pretty certain that I am. Maybe I'll give you an update when I get back. God bless. Thanks a lot. so សូវាប់បានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបា Thank you. Bye.