Pints With Aquinas - Reacting to Brett Cooper's Thoughts on P0rn

Episode Date: May 31, 2023

Matt Reacts to Brett Cooper's appearance on a podcast where porn is discussed. The Porn Myth: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com/products/the-porn-myth Magdala Ministries: https://www.magdalaministries.org 🚫 FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/ 🟣 Join Us on Locals (before we get banned on YT): https://mattfradd.locals.com/ 🖥️ Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ 🟢 Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas 👕 Merch: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com 🔵 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd We get a small kick back from affiliate links.

Hello everybody, my name is Matt Fratt and this is Pints with Aquinas and I'm holding an iced coffee. Yeah. Today I'm going to be responding to an interview that Brett Cooper was in with the Ice Coffee Hour, I think it's called. I don't know. That's not why I'm drinking an iced coffee. Just happen to love them because they're delicious. She spoke about pornography in it and they spoke for a good amount of time so I thought I'd respond to it because apparently it is now my duty to respond to every everything that comes out of the mouth of a daily wire employee. They don't even

have to have a show they can just be the... if the janitor speaks about pornography even in private I will be there lurking around his family and just bursting out of the bushes ready to moralise, ready to give my opinion, ready to correct his misunderstanding. But to be serious, I do think it's something that we've got to get right. I think the Catholic Church has the most beautiful understanding, because it's the truest understanding, of the human person and human sexuality. And we want to help our non-Catholic conservative brothers and sisters better see so that they can be better able to fight against pornography and why it's evil. So that's what we'll

be doing today. I'm going to be drawing a lot from my book The The Porn Myth. The Porn Myth is a non-religious response to pro-porn arguments. You can get it on Audible or paperback or ebook. 100% of the royalties from that book, no matter where you buy it or how you consume it, is given to a group in San Diego called Children of the Immaculate Heart who help those in sex trafficking.

I don't make a cent from the book, but I think it's a good book. I think it's worth your time and in getting it you'll also be supporting this great cause. So again it's called the porn myth. A ton of research went into it and I'm pretty proud of it you know. There's always things you wish you did differently obviously or had have not said but for the most part I think it's a very good book and very well researched. I will say that. One final thought before we get into today's interview. This is not meant to be an overly critical response to Brett Cooper or the fellas in this podcast. I think Brett did a great job, actually.

I would push back on some of the things that she said, but I don't want to pretend that somebody on a podcast thinking things through in real time and doing their best to articulate her or his thoughts is Their final say in the matter, you know, like I think that would be unfair to do This is why if you watched my interview with Jonathan van Maron Shortly after Dennis Prager did that Exodus 90 thing when he spoke about pornography I said maybe this isn't really what he thinks maybe he was speaking off the cuff maybe we can give it get him a chance to revisit it so I had him on to revisit it and he doubled

down in many respects so that was one day when we get Brett Cooper on the show and we talk a great deal about this. I suspect that our views would be very much aligned. That said I am gonna push back on some of the things that she said. I should have had that queued up. My bad. He asked her about why she's anti-porn. Alright, here we go. I also think that porn is one of the things that is destroying my generation. Why is it so bad? It's so bad because it emasculates men, degrades women, and destroys marriage, which is the very foundation of society. So that's a bit of an answer.

Okay, so first of all, with the porn industry... Is it weird that I'm drinking iced coffee while... is that... you're okay with it? Okay, I just... I want you to be comfortable. We know that it is fueled by criminal activity. I mean, the sex trafficking industry is funneled through porn. Porn Hub is dealing with, I mean, at this rate, 10 plus 15 lawsuits. Children being molested, put on the side. It's just, it is a breeding ground for terrible behavior. She's exactly right.

This is going on. This has been documented that acts of rape and sexual trafficking have been in more cases that I think we're willing to admit, been documented and uploaded to porn sites and even sold to porn sites. I'm thinking of a article that came out of CNN several years ago.

It was about a 54 year old Japanese man who put out an advertisement in the newspaper saying that he was a health professional seeking women between certain ages to conduct sleep studies with. He gave them heavy sedatives and alcohol and this is about to get a little heavy so warning. While they were asleep he abused them sexually and it gets worse, like filmed the abuse and sold the

abuse to pornographic sites. He said for somewhere in the ballpark of a hundred thousand dollars. This stuff does take place and it should cause us concern. If you watch pornography regularly, I don't think it's improbable that you have masturbated to a modern day slave. And I put it like that to wake us up because I think that realization should be a splash of cold water in the face. It should cause us to sort of sit back and say, my god what am I doing with this beautiful gift of sexuality that you've given me? For women I think we are fed this lie that you can't... as women I think we are fed this lie that you can have the super happy and productive and like fulfilling life by just selling your body. It will not be that way. You look at the mental health of sex workers,

you look at the mental health of porn stars, it's not good. This is 100% true. Jenna Jamieson, perhaps no one's made it as big in the porn industry as Jenna Jamieson, but in her bestselling book she referenced a conversation that she had with Howard Stern when he asked her, were you ever sexually abused as a minor? She said no in the interview. In fact in the book she says I lied like a rug. Then she talked about what it was like to be again forgive the heaviness of this topic but sexually abused by several people at a high school. And later on she was interviewed by, what's that fella's name, Anderson Cooper.

And he said to her, if you have a daughter, will you let her do porn? What if she wants to? And she said, I would lock her in the closet. Their lives are for the most part pretty bloody bleak and obviously when they're in the limelight putting on a smile and saying how great this is is the way to go but if you listen to women after they've got out of the porn industry it's it's usually a very different story. I want to share with you a quotation from legal scholar Catherine A. McKinnon because I think this sheds

light on the re... sometimes what is the reality in pornography. She says, as with all prostitution, the women and children in pornography are in the main, not there by choice, but because of a lack of choices. They usually consent only in a degraded and demented sense of the word, common also to the law of rape, in which a person who despairs at stopping what is happening sees no escape, has no real alternative, was often sexually abused before as a child, may be addicted to drugs, might be homeless, is often hopeless, often trying to avoid being beaten or killed, is also always economically desperate and

they acquiesce in being sexually abused for payment even if in most instances that payment is made to someone else. Now is that the experience of the majority of people in the porn industry? I don't know, probably not. I think almost certainly not, especially with the rise of OnlyFans, but it is something that we have to face. There's like the 1% like on OnlyFans who makes you know they make millions of dollars and they're great, and that will sustain them whenever they stop doing

this kind of work, but for the majority of them, it is a terrible, terrible, terrible industry. I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. Yes. And very much devil's advocate. Okay. Okay. Graham's laughing.

Yeah. Okay, so I think a lot of people, Graham. They fall into the porn industry because it's just like, oh, in my happenstance, I may as well do this, I can make a good buck here. So I could see why that would probably not work very well mentally for people.

It's like falling into something where, like you said, selling your body, but those that do intentionally move into the industry and they know that that's something that they enjoy, don't you think in that situation? I guess you did allude to the 1% of people. Yeah, if it works for you, then that's fine. I will never say to your face,

like you are lying to yourself about it because of- No offense, but it sounds like some f***ing commie gobbledy gook. It's definitely not fine and I would 100% say to the person who tried to justify producing pornography that not only are they doing something deeply immoral but they're wrong to tell me that they're happy in doing it. I once gave a talk in Baltimore and there was a porn performer at the talk and the talk was on pornography and at the end she stood up and to her credit actually was quite respectful but she told

me why I was wrong to draw some of the conclusions I was drawing that it's not the case that all these women in the porn industry are these helpless victims who hate their lives and that she's very very happy. I mean I'm really glad if it's true that she doesn't hate her life, thank God. But I said to her, you're wrong to be happy. See, happiness is not mere emotional contentment. If it were, pigs would be happy in certain instances. Or maybe when you were asleep, you were the happiest. Happiness has to do with the fulfillment of our nature. Sin is contrary to our nature and so can never make us happy, especially serious sin like this

that is so degrading to ourselves. So it's bloody well not okay. I'm sure there's some people that just like genuinely don't care and they have a good experience with it. But I think on a whole, and looking at like the entire gender, like women are not, you know,

and maybe this goes back to like hokopulture and that kind of thing. But when you look at men and women, men are biologically designed to go sow the seeds. There's a reason why you do not carry a child for nine months. For women, it's like, I need to find this one specific partner.

I can only be pregnant for nine months. Like I can only carry, basically, you know, I can only have one pregnancy at once. I have to protect these eggs. I only have, you know, a set amount of eggs that I've, you know, created. And so we are very, very protective over that. With men, you are literally designed

to go repopulate the earth, literally. And so with women, there's a reason why, biologically, hookup culture and just living with a bunch of people and leaning into that, and I guess porn is a little bit different, but still, this sex-positive culture for women, I don't think it's healthy because it's going against how. It's funny that we call it sex-positive culture.

If somebody is pro-porn, what they're promoting isn't sex. They're promoting what Jason Everett has referred to as an erotic moment with your laptop. This is not sex. This is anti-sex. How I believe we are literally biologically designed. And I think for young men,

it is allowing them to be complacent with just living online and not having real relationships. Like the violence in marriage. Yes, a word about that. I mean, if the masculine genius can be summarized, I would say it means strength on behalf of others. There's something peculiar to men that they not only desire to and are more capable of,

but it's the most beautiful thing when, and maybe all of these things are indicators that this is the masculine genius, when they offer their strength on behalf of others. The reason I said that pornography emasculates men, that it robs them of the ability to be masculine, is that instead of offering their strength on behalf of another, they degrade the other for the sake of their selfish pleasure. Let's say a word about that. I pulled out just a couple of studies here. In a meta, this is from my book, The Porn Myth,

in a meta analysis of 46 studies published from 1962 to 1995, comprising a total sample of 12,323 people, researchers concluded that pornographic material puts one at increased risk of the following. Developing sexual deviant tendencies, 31% increased in risk. Committing sexual offences, 22% increase in risk. Accepting rape myths, 31% increase in risk. Here's another study. A study that both exposed participants to pornography and asked them about their pornography use found that high pornography use corresponds to higher

acceptance of rape myths, acceptance of violence against women, adversarial sex beliefs, likelihood of committing rape and forced sex acts, and sexual callousness. Three with it. 52% of divorces in this country cite porn as an issue, which is just insane. I think what she's referring to is the following. Among attorneys at the November 2002 meeting of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, 62% said the internet had been a significant factor in divorces they had handled during that year.

Of those cases, 56% involved one person having an obsessive interest in internet porn. That, but it makes sense, because if you're unhappy and you're trying to find fulfillment or pleasure somewhere else, you're gonna go that way. But I was reading this Reddit post from this person. They were arguing the benefits and the drawbacks between OnlyFans and PornHub, and they were arguing that OnlyFans was better. And one of the arguments for OnlyFans being better was because they were subscribing to an individual girl and they could create this like parasocial relationship with her and it's like it feels better because I'm not really objectifying her. We have a relationship we can chat and I can feel better. It's like then go out into the real world and ask a girl on a date. Like porn is allowing young

men to stay in front of their computers and not strive for anything else like overuse of porn over the masturbation it f**k with your hormones. Like biologically it has impacts mentally men who are porn addicted who even just are not even porn addicted but watch copious amounts of porn are mentally very very unhealthy, like it is not natural. Um... Yeah, this is actually a hundred percent true. I document this in my book The Porn Myth. Let's see if we can come up with a couple here. Studies have found that frequency of porn use correlates with depression, anxiety, stress and social problems. It shouldn't be surprising that porn use isates with depression, anxiety, stress, and social problems.

It shouldn't be surprising that porn use is associated with depression, given that porn has the ability to mess with the user's dopamine system. Researchers found that dopamine signaling is a main factor in depression. There is so much I have in the book. Again, if you want the footnotes, go there.

Let's see. Researchers in Belgium looked at 14-year-old boys' academic performance twice and compared the two sources. They found that an increased use of internet pornography decreases boys' academic performance six months later. A study that looked at internet addicts, pornography was a main online activity for these subjects, found that they suffered from negative moods when they went offline. Another one, researchers have also found that moderate porn use is correlated with shrunken grey matter in parts of the brain that oversee cognitive function. So if you're pro-science and pro- pro love you should be anti-porn.

And it's just like and then on top of it with the industry being so dangerous it's like why is this something that we have just become you know so accustomed to and it's happened really fast. My mom and I were talking about it my producer Matt Schaller, but my former producer doesn't work here anymore he was in his 40s we were talking about like with he and my mom where if you wanted to watch adult content 40 years ago, 30 years ago. I don't like that we call it adult content.

I'm not criticizing her for this because I might sometimes use that phrase, but there is nothing adult about being led by your lower passions like a petulant juvenile child. A sign of manhood, of adulthood is having your lower passions subject to your reason, not the other way around. Years ago you had to go to a theater and you had to watch, you know, with a lot of people. Like there was a reason why, I'm forgetting who the actor was, it was like arrested for masturbating in a theater like in an

adult film. Or then later on with like Blockbuster and that sort of thing, you had to go into like the adult section. And you were in public renting it out and that sort of thing. But it has become more and more private where now it is literally on your phones. You can do a quick Google search. It is so at people's fingertips

that there is now not really a stigma around it. Women are almost like encouraged to go into it in a lot of ways. You look at things online, you see girls that you're now making millions, you know. Yeah, she's exactly right. Pornography is a shameful behavior and it ought to be stigmatized

and we ought to continually and loudly condemn it as something that is beastly. Basically objectifying themselves and selling their bodies is almost appealing. With men it's become so commonplace. Boys start seeing porn when they're like 13 years old. I saw porn for the first time when I was, I think, probably 14 or 15. It's just, it's become so normalized

so quickly. And that is like the most shocking thing to me. Just a quick shout out for a group called Covenant Eyes. I mean, Brett, I think said she was 14 when she was first exposed to porn. The idea that we can give our children phones and laptops and iPads and Nintendo switches and not expect them to have access to pornography or not expect that they will seek it out is I think foolish. Covenant Eyes is the best filtering and accountability software on the web.

When you get it and install it on your devices, you let's say as the parent get a report of your child's behavior telling you where they went that was problematic, what search terms they went, that was problematic, what search terms they typed, at what time, on what device. And not only does it search for text within the page, it can even detect quite well whether or not an image or a video, just by looking at that image or video,

is pornographic. And it's really, really, really excellent stuff. If you are a parent and your children have access to the internet, go get Covenantize. I have it on all my devices. And I would go so far as to say it's an act of neglect not to have. If you're going to give your children devices access

to the internet, it's a serious act of neglect for you not to install Covenantize on all those devices or some other software. But I would say that Carvenerize is by far head and shoulders the best thing out there. I also think in a similar way as we were talking about like the culture around smoking weed, I do think that there's like a culture around young men

who just sit in their homes and they just watch porn. I do agree. I think the accessibility to porn is the real issue. Porn is. Yeah, so this is what we call the three A's of the internet. Since the advent of the internet, pornography has become accessible, anonymous, and affordable in a way that it never was before. And because of that, porn use has skyrocketed.

Delf, I don't know if that's like a huge issue of- So he's saying that the accessibility is bad, but porn in and of itself is not sure if it's a big issue. Guys know exactly what they're doing and they're very intentional about it. And the girls that go into the business are very intentional about going into the business. They feel pride with what they do. I feel like there's probably no problem with that. Well, I don't think there is a problem

with sex trafficking. Oh, that's, I'm glad. Yeah, okay, good. There's a problem with sex trafficking. Yes, we can agree on. Ah, I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if your litmus test for for what is a healthy, good sexual act is I'm not raping anybody, then bloody hell, you have fallen.

And our idea of what man is has fallen so woefully short of where we should be. For sure. Well, yeah. I think now Pornhub, don't they verify IDs? You can still get around that still, like, I mean, Netflix is about to drop a whole documentary, I think no point home. Don't they verify IDs? You can still get around that still like I mean that was about to drop a whole documentary I think next month literally just about the sex trafficking. I mean traffic objectively. Yeah I'm just talking theory of porn itself

Yeah But something that's crazy to me is that laws are just now being put in place where you have to verify your age you get On Pornhub like before it was like you could just put in any birthday and get on and watch it states are just now rolling out You may verify like if I was verifying my student discount on Spotify, putting in a student ID, whatever. Imagine a data breach. Yeah. If we can't trust Equifax. Yeah. I'm just I'm just saying. Yeah. There's there's lists.

You don't want to go through the list. Yeah. Just like, you know, control F and like, what are they going to check? IDs and everything like you submit? You scan it. Wow. And so and then there's the debate that a lot of people will agree that porn hub and sites like porn hub is objectively bad because they do not protect their creators, it's dangerous, it's just slipped up one too many times, so people say like OnlyFans is better.

OnlyFans was not created as a like adult content site, it was created as like Patreon without any kind of like content regulations, they are not a sex site and they're very very clear about that. Just because something is less bad than something else it doesn't make it good and it doesn't make it healthy. If I said to you, I smoke one carton of cigarettes for breakfast every day, and that's less bad than smoking 10 cartons of cigarettes for breakfast every day, you wouldn't conclude from that.

I shouldn't conclude from that, that therefore I am engaged in a healthy activity. And so we got to get away from this. Well, I mean, this is technically less bad than this. I agree, like I said with Shapiro, like I said with Prager, that there is a spectrum. But what we need to be doing as men and women who want to be fully alive is turning 180 degrees in the other direction and asking, how can I be a good man? Like if you're married, how can I love my wife in the way she deserves? What kind of man could I become if I stop justifying my lust and my cowardice? When I die and someone gets up to say a few words about me at my funeral, what I don't

want them saying is, he didn't look at porn or he never raped anybody. We're not going to get to heaven and say to St. Peter never raped anyone and looking forward to getting in. So they do not have any protections in place for their careers. Well, I thought that the way around that was for their banking by saying like, hey, we don't just focus on this, we allow anything. And that's one of the ways around how they can get like lines of credit and a bank account and stuff like that. Exactly. But also they were started initially, it was during COVID that it blew up as like a sex site because sex workers, like escorts didn't have jobs

during COVID. Yeah, they're not workers. Prostitution is not sex work and a woman's body is not a marketplace. So they created OnlyFans. And people think that it is safer because of that or that it's like feminist porn because women are producing it themselves,

but it is often more dangerous because there are no regulations on the site because it is not an adult site. So OnlyFans has no way to report if there's some guy that's trying to pimp you out. They do not have many verification things. There's all of these studies, mainly in the UK, of looking at kids who have gotten onto OnlyFans

as creators or as consumers, because their age verification, you can submit an ID that is not yours and still get an account. So if you wonder what this story of a girl who used her aunt's ID, made it OnlyFans, and at 70 or 16 years old was doing OnlyFans content and then got exploited like some crazy guy like

found her and like a bunch of stuff. So they just do not have those protections. So like if the industry itself is not even safe, like I understand like you have a right to do whatever work you want. No you don't. You definitely don't have a right to do whatever work you want. You do not have a right to do evil and to encourage other people to do evil. Yeah, exactly. But I don't think that, one, I don't think it's healthy for society as a whole. I don't think that's doing anything good for any of us. But it's like I get it if you want to.

Because rights are bestowed by God, not by the state. That's why I say that. Sure, legally, she has a right to do it, but it's a fake right. It's like the right for two men to get married it's not a marriage that's what about what about prostitution because the don't they say that's I gotta say I really like these guys they seem very charming and I like the event is it the culture of porn itself or is it porn in general? Both.

I think it's both. So I agree. I think the culture around porn, yes, is extremely toxic. It's very bad. Probably an objective bet, right? Yeah. Let's take porn itself. Okay.

With two very intentional people consenting into this whatever transactional relationship, how is that bad? If they are doing that, then I guess that's fine. Right. is that bad? If they are doing that then I guess that's fine. Right so obviously I fully fully disagree with that statement from Brett Cooper but again she's offering thoughts on the fly in the context of a laid-back conversation. I would hope that she would change her mind or would think that she got that wrong. It's not fine. If two people choose to degrade each other, in a way that's worse,

because you've got two people who don't understand their great dignity or don't care about it, and don't understand or care about the dignity of the other that they too are degrading. A lot of conversations about pornography revolve around what motivates it or what comes from it. And so I would say that things can be wrong what motivates it or what comes from it. And so I would say that things can be wrong because of what they bring about.

Things can be wrong because of how they came about. And then things can be wrong because of what they are about. That's how I'm talking about before, after, and the act itself. And I've said it before, but it's really important. Porn is not intrinsic. Okay, a lot of iced coffee. So there are certain actions that are not wrong in and of themselves but can become wrong because of their consequences. Like if I

went to Vegas and decided to go gambling one night, I think we would all agree I'm not doing something, all things being equal, intrinsically evil. But I could gamble to such a degree that I become addicted, that I spend my family's money, that I end up with marital problems. And so fair enough, if you're trying to persuade people why they should get out of gambling or why they shouldn't get into it in the first place, and I think that's admirable, you might point to those consequences of gambling. Fair enough. But then there are actions that are wrong because of what they are. Child abuse, racism, rape.

It's not like, well, if we just mitigate the negative consequences around racism, rape, it's not like, well, if we just mitigate the negative consequences around racism, then maybe it's okay, in a way that you might say with gambling. And I would say you've got two things here. You've got one thing that we're looking at, like gambling, that's wrong because of how it comes about or what it brings about. And then you've got things like racism or child abuse that are just wrong because of what they are. And so the question is, is pornography like gambling things like racism or child abuse that are just wrong because of what they are. And so the question is, is pornography like gambling or is pornography like child abuse or like racism or something like that?

And I would, we have to say it's like racism. Like it's false because of what it is. It's wrong in and of itself. And what that means is even if you could help somebody view pornography with regularity such that they never experienced a sort of neurological definition of addiction, that it didn't interfere with their marriage or their job or the way they viewed other people, and that you could be convinced that the pornography that they were watching was consensual and done with the strictest sort of guidelines such that it as well as it could elevated the dignity of the participants like what that it's still evil and it's evil because we should never treat people merely as means to an end if you've ever been used it feels

like violence has been done to you, doesn't it? And that's because it has. The human person is a good towards which the only proper and adequate attitude is love. That's it. What is love? It's willing the good of the other for their sake. What's the opposite of love? Carol Voitiwa, who would go on to become Pope John Paul II, would say the opposite of love is use. Why? If love is willing your good for your sake, use seeks my good at your expense. It's always wrong. In addition to that, it is a perversion of what sex is. Sex clearly exists for the union of the spouses and an openness to life. If somebody is having an erotic moment with their laptop, neither is happening. They're thwarting the end of the

goodness that is their sexual desire and drive. Like, if you want to make videos in your own home, I guess maybe it's the selling of it. That's also wicked. But you see what I mean? Like, I'm really not trying to come down hard here on Brett because she's trying to think this through. And I'm pretty sure I'm going to go ahead and say, she will agree with me. And Brett, in the comment section, you can let me know that in the comment section,

wow, I didn't even mean to do that. You can do a whole video on why you agree with me. I'd appreciate it. What is it exactly about the selling of it? Because people sell their bodies in other ways. Ah, but not in a way that degrades the person. And they're not selling their bodies as much as they are selling their labor or their talent.

This is not true in pornography. Pornography, when someone consumes pornography, they're subordinating the dignity of the person to the inferior good of their pleasure. It's not that pleasure is bad, obviously, but even without faith, one can recognize that a person is worth more than pleasure, not to mention illicit pleasure. That's very true. I guess I think in my mind that goes back to the industry.

Like, will there ever be a safe way to present that pornography but if and it wouldn't matter it wouldn't matter why there's yeah wouldn't matter it would probably be okay and definitely not I think on a moral level I would still say no I think you value intimacy. Go Brett Cooper! By the way I love the I think there's a great I love the intellectual honesty of saying, I still think it's wrong. Maybe I don't even know how to explain it, but I just, I sense that it's wrong.

So I'm gonna plant my flag here until you can convince me otherwise. That's a really good, a tactic makes it sound manipulative, but if you're in an adversarial back and forth, you don't have to concede the argument just because you don't know how to defend your position. You can say, I see what you're saying.

I'm going to have to think about this more, but I think you're wrong. That is a perfectly reasonable, epistemologically humble position to take, I think. Something that's like you feel is protected and is yours and is sacred. I do too. I 100% I value intimacy. I value all that stuff, too But at the same time I'm very much the type where I don't want to be telling people that Know what they're going into what they should and shouldn't be I a hundred percent will continue to do that and

shame on you for not being willing to tell people who are engaging in evil and who are degrading themselves and others and who are Promoting the downfall of what is the rubbles of Western civilization, what to do. Why would you not tell them what to do? You absolutely should be telling them what to do. This is the shrinking of morality. This is why we need the natural law. Because without, and the Catholic Church's teachings on the natural law, I encourage

you to look into it. It is the most beautiful most comprehensive way apart from divine revelation of discerning what is good and what isn't otherwise Literally all you're left with is so long as you don't rape someone technically you're being a good person Doing and that's why I think in a perfect world where it was totally safe maybe I can't give a solid answer because I still do not believe that it is a good for society I think people good woman people are on a whole negative it is a bad for society I would probably agree that yeah and also because the culture is it comes all and I think it's for the viewers but also I would look at the people who even if they are you know consenting individuals

I was to look at that and be like you know as Brett Cooper I don't think you're making the right decision. Yeah. See, that's just what I said. See, Brett, we're on the same page. You rock, I love it. You're exactly right. If I had control over your life, I would, they do not do that.

It is not gonna be healthy for you in the long run. Like you are literally blowing up your reputation. What's unhealthy about it? Do you feel? Oh my gosh. You just like spent a lot of time telling you what was unhealthy about it. From the actresses or actors perspective.

Yeah. I guess I keep going back to number one, the industry is like very dangerous, but also on an emotional level. If you are just selling the most- You take a pause just after time. Yes. Like mentally, emotionally you are- I have a whole chapter in my book and it's, see in my book, The Porn Myth, I'm debunking myths. I got, I think it's like 24 chapters in the book. And the chapters are quite short, relatively speaking, because I'm trying to respond with logic and science

to certain arguments from pro-porn advocates. And one of the chapters is, women in the industry are just well-rounded nymphomaniacs and just let them go. And first of all, that's a, you can't be well-rounded and a nymphomaniac. That's an oxymoron. But in that section, I document what people in the porn industry say about what it was like after they're not trying to make a buck from it. And it's

absolutely awful. When I gave it to my friend Trent Horn, he said he actually felt physically sick and was afraid he was going to throw up. That's how bad it was. I'm not going to read them on air, but again, feel free to go get the porn myth on Audible or on Amazon. Thanks. Selling like the most biologically intimate thing that you can do. And you're putting like a price tag on like after that, what else do you have to give? It's like you are literally breaking through every barrier. Like you have no privacy. Like this is the most intimate thing that you can do. I will never say that that is objectively healthy. It goes against.

Good woman. And if it's not objectively healthy, then what is it? It's objectively unhealthy. Biology. Yes. Not just that it goes against biology. I don't like this materialist view on everything. What is a person, someone created in the image

and likeness of God who is destined for heaven, who has been redeemed by the blood of the second person of the blessed Trinity who desires them to be saved and is sought to save them at all costs. Now end is the beatific vision. Pornography sends souls to hell. Like this is the most objectively private, intimate thing that we are now like commercializing and selling. I will never say that that could ever be healthy. Good

for you, Bracky. But by the way, I'm aware that the five espresso shots that I had pumped into this iced coffee is definitely taking effect. So hopefully you're keeping up with my level of excitement. You would say biological truths are axiomatically correct morally. I don't even know what that sentence means. I don't think it was actually meaningful. Yes. What did you just say?

I'm sorry. Okay, that's something I would actually kind of agree with to a certain extent. Okay, so just so everyone knows, okay, because I feel like people are gonna start thinking like oh Jack. He's like it's crazy Yeah, whatever. Okay, because we've had two porn stars on the show before okay, and people said that it looked like Which is not the case, okay, but that's like what the viewers got out of that a very intense stare Yeah, yeah, I'm listening intently. Yeah, I do but like I am I agree point culture is extremely dangerous

And I think porn itself, you're just taking two consenting people, I think that's probably fine. I'm not this crazy porn person, in case if you guys watching are wondering, okay, I don't even watch porn. I will say openly, I used to watch porn. And you know this, Graham, I don't watch porn anymore.

No, and I've found my life. And that's incredibly admirable. Thank you. First of all, like good for him. And I wanna say, if you're out there right now and you're a man or a woman struggling with pornography, like you can be as passionate as I clearly am with five espresso shots in me against pornography while you struggle to be free from it. A hypocrite is not somebody who sometimes fails to live up to their standards. That's just being human, right? A hypocrite

is somebody who tells everybody else not to do anything and thinks there's an exception for themselves or something like that, you know? So listen, if you're a man struggling with pornography, I want to point you to strive21.com. It is a 21-day detox from porn course I created to help people break free, men specifically, break free from pornography. It's very well produced. Every day you get a three to five to seven minutes somewhere in that range video and it's basically what would I say to you over the course of 21 days if we could have a coffee together throughout that time. I think it's really well done and it's a hundred percent free.

You don't have to pay for it, you don't have to even share your real name. But as of now, we've had over 46,000 men go through Strive. So Strive21.com, check that out. It's very, very hard to do. It's also very, very rare to find men that will openly say that. That you used to watch porn or that you quit porn? Yeah, both.

Oh, okay. But yeah, that you used to and that you quit or that you actively don't, that's very rare. And I'm somebody that brings it up, I'm like, so, let's talk about that. And they? Yeah, both. But yeah, that you used to and that you quit or that you actively don't, that's very rare. And I'm somebody that brings it up, I'm like, so, let's talk about that. And it's like, hmm. See, I feel neutral, I just don't care either way. I think if two people are consenting

and they're not hurting anybody, I'm all for it. I think there's a place for it, I think there's a market. There was an example in Germany where somebody had always wanted to eat a human being and another person had always wanted to be eaten by being, and another person had always wanted to be eaten by a human being. And the two of them got together, and one of them ate the other person after having killed them.

Look it up! Is that okay? Just because two people consent to something, it doesn't make it right. My gosh! I think there's a market for it, but you also have to think on the side of the consumer. Some people are able to perfectly- If you get rid of the market, if you get rid of the audience for it- But then it's going to go underground. Then there's going market for it. But you go back to it on the side of the consumer. Some people are able to perfectly if you get rid of like the audience, but then it's going to go underground, then there's going to be something

that I was thinking like making illegal or whatever. But if like the culture changes and we start to kind of should 100% be illegal, like, you know, in a similar way to Alex, sobriety is very, very cool now. Like there's all of these like mocktail bars that are opening up that sort of thing. It's like if the culture starts changing around it, around it, the market starts changing. I still think that's such a small subset.

Yeah, like the mocktail industry, I think that's so cool. Macy was even, she ordered a mocktail. I had no idea those things existed and I tried it. It was actually really cool. I like it. But I see these changes, but I think it's such a small part of the market. But I still have.

It's growing, baby. There is an army of young men and young women who are bloody well fed up of the stuff that Pornhub and company is pushing on them and they want to live lives of dignity and purity. I'm telling you. I still have hope for that because I still see it as like a productive change. I still see those people as people that are going out and having conversations in their

community and maybe changing minds or opening people up to a new thing. I think that that's exciting. But I do put a lot of fault on the consumers because if there was not such a porn culture and consumption of porn, there would not be a market for it. People would not go into it thinking that it was some kind of prostitution. Everything you said. Isn't that the oldest profession? Don't they call that? I think so. Yeah, I would say. I don't support prostitution.

I know, but isn't that similar? On a similar wavelength? Yeah, but just because it's existed for a long time doesn't necessarily make it. But I feel like that should also be legal. I mean, if two consenting adults are... also be legal. I mean, if two consenting adults are... This is just so... It's so bad. This is just such a bare bones view of morality. I've said it like twice now. I'm gonna say it again. This idea that the only thing that we need to consider when judging an action right or wrong is whether or not it's consenting. What if somebody enjoyed being called racial slurs? They got off on it somehow. And somebody

enjoyed like swearing at somebody in a racist way. Would that be okay? I suppose I suppose you would say, yeah, yeah, definitely is. And I would say, well, then you're definitely wrong. Want to enter into a business arrangement. I actually, I probably agree with you. Yeah, you probably disagree with this, but I just think people give them the right to do whatever they want, for the most part. I think that the, again, I always go back to the industry

around it, and maybe the argument that it's legal and there's more protections and all of that stuff, maybe it could be a different thing, but I, just because something has been around for a long time or has been done in my mind does not make it right or morally right. So I look at that and I still think that I don't think that people, you know, should be doing. I don't think that that's the healthy thing to do.

Would I legislate that? I don't know. That's why I would never be a politician, because I like to be able to have nuanced conversations. I think. Right. Yeah, these are these are two different conversations. Like I did a debate a few years back with two people in the UK on a radio show called Unbelievable. You could look it up if you want. And I was debating a quote unquote sex worker and a libertarian who thought the government

should stay away from pornography and all regulations were somehow unjust. And the way I got around making the argument for why I thought, you know, pornographers should be jailed, let's say, is by saying, look, okay, in order to even consider whether or not pornography should be illegal, we have to first consider whether or not it's harmful. Because if it's not harmful, then there's no point having a conversation about whether or not it should be illegal. So why don't we just do that? And again, my book, The Porn Myth does that.

There's a lot of great websites out there. Your brain on porn.com does that. Fightthenewdrug.com does that. Covenant Eyes has a great article section that does that. It's a terrible position, but I do believe that it is unhealthy for people. I believe that selling your body is unhealthy. I believe that paying for sex is unhealthy.

And so I will never advocate for something is unhealthy and I will like never advocate But technically in the bigger picture when you consider the entire timeline of humanity slavery has only not existed for a very short period Yeah, there's something easy Yes, yeah, so I will say this though I just want to make sure we wrap this up Okay, if you guys want to quit porn, I would encourage it I saw my life improve and I'm gonna open this because it's an uncomfortable conversation Because I know my grandma watches this hopefully she's not gonna be tuned in Hey Gigi say hi Gigi Yeah, hello Gigi. My dad sometimes watches. Sorry dad. Um, but yeah, I don't watch porn

And I've saw my life extremely like drastically improve and the way that I- That's beautiful. Good for you dude. I saw it improve. I don't want to go into too much detail But mostly I think that I stopped seeking like instant gratification with certain things and I started seeing the world through a lens of like Okay, I'm in this for the long haul. I'm gonna find someone, I wanna settle down. Do you felt like that was holding you back from finding somebody?

It definitely made me so much less motivated to find someone, yes, absolutely. Because you got that instant gratification. Exactly, and then you're good. Why would you need to have a real life woman? Yeah, just like, okay, we're good for the day, let's. Whatever interval of time it was. Okay, I'm not disclosing too much right here.

Yeah, we're good for the minute, no. And that's the experience of a lot of men, and if you look at the studies about, especially men, but it's just now because there's so many more women that are watching porn. But here's the thing, my argument on that is boredom. When you're bored, you look for things to do. When you're working and you're eating.

Oh, that's the most dangerous one, is when it gets to boredom. And I don't mind. What I'm saying, but if someone is on a mission. If you're a woman who struggles with pornography, check out Magdala Ministries. They are fantastic and they will help you be free of pornography.

And they have stuff to do and they're busy and they're working and they're doing something productive. That's not something you think about. It's like when you're bored, there's nothing to do. Well boredom, I will say, Contrary to my opinion right here, I think boredom is actually extremely productive. And I think during- All right, so we're getting into a different topic right now,

but there we go. I hope you enjoyed that little review of Brett Cooper's interview. I think she did a good job. I was happy to push back a little bit in certain instances, but I honestly think when we finally sit down and make Thursday the most uncomfortable he has ever been, that we would agree a lot more than we disagree. God bless you.

If you haven't yet, would you please? I would have begged you. I don't want to be weird about it. But click subscribe, click the bell button, and then, I don't know. Well, I'd feel good about myself. I also told Thursday, all right, so you should know this. Once we reach 400,000 subscribers, I'm gonna buy him a 100,000 YouTube plaque,

specifically for him Because when he came on board we had 300,000 subscribers and now we're obviously much more than that I'd really appreciate it and then also just so you know I'm gonna put a link in the description to my book the porn myth and Also to magdala ministries, which is that ministry for women who are struggling with pornography also to strive 21 Which is the course that I came up with and a whole other host of things besides god bless. Bye