Pints With Aquinas - Red Pill to Catholic: Embracing True Patriarchy (Mike Pantile)

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

Become an annual supporter at https://mattfradd.locals.com/support Get episodes a week early ✅ a free PWA beer stein ✅ and exclusive streams from me ✅ Mike Pantile is a husband, father, and fitness business owner who has dedicated his life to helping others transform themselves physically, mentally, and spiritually. Born and raised in Vancouver, BC, Mike’s journey of personal transformation began with overcoming obesity—he lost over 100 pounds in 18 months—and led him to open a successful personal training studio. Over the years, he has expanded his focus beyond fitness to address issues of masculinity, faith, and personal growth, particularly for Christian men. Show Sponsors: Exodus: https://exodus90.com/matt Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Strive21: https://strive21.com/matt Mike’s Links: https://mikepantile.com/ https://www.skool.com/catholic-masculinity-project-1303 https://www.skool.com/cmp-inner-circle-5988  

Hey guys, it takes a lot of money to keep this podcast going. Please consider supporting us at matfrad.locals.com. When you become an annual supporter, we will send you a free Pints with Aquinas Bierstein. Just pay shipping. You'll get access to our long-form episodes one week before they hit YouTube. You'll also get to interact with me on my exclusive stream for my supporters over at matfrad.locals.com. Thanks. These guys are like, bro, I'm never gonna get married. You're married to such a risk, you're an idiot. Okay, well, so what's the alternative, bro? supporters over at matfrat.locals.com. Thanks. of life being 70 80 90 and having kids and grandkids around us there's a lot of guys out I know Rollo Tomasi I'll just name names because he always talks about how guys don't name names when they're talking about him he'll say that this is a pipe dream it's not a pipe dream

I'm gonna turn my phone off um Canada we can Canada. What are your thoughts? I wish Canada wasn't in the state that it was in right now. It's a really troubling place to be when you would almost rather have Joe Biden lead your country than Justin Trudeau. But luckily, praise God, there's going to be this over in Canada, the blue wave is a conservative wave. I understand the colors are a bit flipped in the US, right? Republican being red, Democrats being blue. So it's going to be a blue wave. Now, Canada goes through the same cycle. It's voting the liberal because you hate the conservative. Yeah. And then eventually end up hating the liberal and voting in the conservative. It's voting the liberal because you hate the conservative. And then eventually end up hating the liberal and voting in the conservative. It's just like in perpetuity.

So if it wasn't so difficult to move to the US, my family and I would probably consider that. I know being an Australian, you know, Americans have their opinions about Australia and what happened in Covid. And often they seem more educated than I am. So I can't tell if they're right or not. So when Americans talk about how bad Canada is, I wonder, is it really that bad? And it sounds like you're saying, yes, not.

Yeah, it's from a political level. It's horrible, for sure. Now, the people, that's where it's claimed my heart. The people there are just so genuine, especially going from the West Coast. I'm from Vancouver, Canada, originally, and it's kind, it's not really like traditionally Canada, whatever that even means. Like the US has a culture, Canada doesn't really have a culture. And what's really interesting is that Canada, at least the origin, was very staunchly Catholic. Very, very Catholic, even in Alberta. Actually, Brian Holdsworth and I live in the same place. Oh nice. It's really cool. Actually, no I don't know him we've conversed on Twitter briefly or X whatever great guy and we I went to the traditional Latin mass for the first

Time and I noticed I'm like that's that redheaded YouTube guy. And so that's that's small world. He was on your show Yeah, it was like a year ago. We've been friends since before I Don't know Podcasting was a thing back in 2007. We were I remember him explaining that 7-8. How did you come to know him again? I had a website and it called the porn effect It was a website fighting porn talking about the negative effects of porn and he was the guy who made it made the website for me That's so cool. I had a friend put me in touch with him Got a bajillion kids from my understanding. I like his channel. I like

he can say a lot of uncomfortable truths in a really gentle and kind of like beautifully eloquent way and I think that's very uh that's a lost art in like the YouTube sphere right now. Yeah. It's either you're a hammer and everything's a nail or you're just kind of like overly gentle and you don't really get anybody. Yeah he did something recently that I thought was cool Michael Lofton kind of went after him well, they both kind of went after each other I guess and But then he did a video kind of defending some of the things Lofton did I don't know where I was like wow That was really cool. Is there somebody that Lofton hasn't gone after? Yeah, it's a it's a weird thing, isn't it?

How YouTube works, because in the context of friendship, like if all these YouTubers lived in the same town, and we said things we didn't agree with, we'd go to each other privately. You probably shouldn't say that, or that was wrong, or you should change that. We wouldn't go after each other. However, when people start having megaphones

and they're influencing thousands of people, sometimes it feels like it's your responsibility to correct other people publicly. Yeah, I can see that. It was kind of a strange thing because what attracted me to Catholicism was like, to universal, there's these guardrails, there's an answer on everything regarding faith and morals. Like, everybody just must think the same. And then you kind of get into the Catholic social media sphere and you're like, oh, this is nothing like that at all.

There's a bunch of different factions. We should all maybe learn to play a little bit nicer than we do sometimes. Yeah, it feels like there's a fragmentation taking place in every group. Yeah, like. Jews, Muslims, conservative Americans, Catholicism, even, and then you get smaller, like the trad Catholics, like there's like divisions there. Yeah, yeah. It's really strange that I'll post a picture of me and the bishop after my confirmation

and you get all of the like, uh, set of contests and the comments saying like, you know, the fact that he wasn't dressed in his proper, cause it was just immediately post confirmation where he took it off. And the fact that I'm in a novus Ordo parish. So it's like, this is so odd. I thought this was just... Yeah, this must be weird coming into the church right now. Yeah, because I had no idea about any of this stuff, because I was born Catholic, I fell away because I was kind of, you know, poor catechesis, you know, the story goes, came back. I'm like, oh yeah, okay. I mean,

there was a tidal wave of love and support. Like, I kid you, there was a lot of fear and trepidation coming public with it. When you kind of build a bit of a social media presence and you're used to being like the Bible alone guy, even though you're not explicitly Protestant. Actually, funny enough, I didn't actually even know what Protestantism was until like maybe a year ago. Hang on, I don't know your story that well.

Were you a Protestant at some point? So this is the thing. So I was baptized in the Catholic Church, I went through a cringe atheist phase, which I'm sure we have that in common. I'm sure we'll touch that too. And then I came back to the faith because I was like, no, like, God is real. This is, this is ridiculous. I just keep running into this, this almost like mental conundrum with it. I'm like, this gotta be something greater. Jesus exists, this just has to be true, or it is true. And I came back as just a Bible alone guy,

the non-denom, which is basically a denom now, because everybody's non-denom. So I said, if it's not in the Bible, I don't believe in it. And so it was actually a couple of years, I actually got re-baptized in October of 2022. And this was like my ignorance. I look back and I kind of cringe and I laugh. It was, I did it sincerely with utmost sincerity. And what I knew for sure was like, I love Jesus. I'll die for my faith. I just don't understand all the saint stuff and Mary stuff. So I look back at some of the things that I, and it's all the classic Protestant preconceived ideas, right? The communion of saints, the Marian stuff, the purgatory stuff.

I think there is something respectable though about the Protestant who says if it's not in the Bible, I'm not going to believe it. I think that phrase and that statement obviously can't be found in the Bible. We all know that as Catholics, but there's something cool about being like, look, I just want to be as faithful as I can. Yeah. Any amount of Jesus is better than no Jesus. Amen. And so like, I'm not going to sit here and like, I always said, I'm not going to be the dunk on the Protestants guy. Yeah. Cause I don't, I don't think you're going to win them over like that. And I don't think you're going to win them over. Just like, I mean, I can get into this eventually too. My wife comes from a, I love you, Karen, by the way, she's

going to freak out just by me starting at saying that, but she was, she was, Hi, Karen. Yeah. Oh, there you go. Even more so because you said it is because you said it. I want to ask you what it's been like for your wife having the name Karen. It's going to be a tough time to live through. Matt, this is so funny. So get this. Her name is Karen. All right. She was born in Lebanon. So it's a bit of like almost like culturally ambiguous too, right?

Coming to Canada from Lebanon. Her name is Karen. And she has a, a, a, we have a dog that's a Shiba Inu. I said, you're the, you're a meme. So you have the Doge meme in Bowser, the Shiba Inu. You should, it's a little like Fox looking dog. If you saw, if you saw the Doge meme, you know what I was talking about. And your name is Karen, but like you're the complete opposite of a Karen. Like, I'm kind of like this, I'm a bit of an asshole, I'm a bit of a jerk. She's like this sunshiny, smiley, kind to everybody person. The total, total opposite. And she definitely doesn't do it on purpose.

That's just who she is. But it's kind of funny those two things juxtaposed next to each other. But back to the apologetics point is so funny because I reflect on that all the time, is my wife comes from a Druze family. I don't even know how to describe what the Druze people believe in. Okay. My mother-in-law is gonna watch this and she's, I love her, she's a firecracker of a woman and she's gonna call me out for it, but it's okay. I just don't understand it. I don't want to do it justice by just saying, hey I don't understand it. And so my wife dabbled in like Hinduism, some new age stuff, and then came to Christianity

completely on her own before she met me. This was just this experience in Australia that she had. And then she actually went to a major Protestant church. She had a friend that was a Christian. And so when she met, she was one of the most, actually the most on fire person for the faith that I had ever, ever met. He said don't. Did you say don't light it into the mic? Yeah. We do this occasionally. It's okay. I get it. It's a very laid-back podcast. It's a production.

It's okay. I totally get it. And so she came into the faith that way. And so actually we reconnect it. I mean, there's a whole story there. We'll talk about it when we talk about the the red pill stuff. What I'm trying to say is about the Protestant people is that when I first started to inquire about Catholicism and it was like I felt this like this pull toward it, I tried to win her over with apologetics, like the intellectual, the staunch intellectual points, the talking points. And all I did was just like pushed her further away. Like she felt stupid, she felt incompetent, she didn't feel like loved, it was just like drinking

out of a fire hose in like the worst kind of way possible. And so that actually was, that was a point of, you know, argumentation for us for the first little bit. And so the greatest form of apologetics that I showed her was nothing in what I said, but in what she saw. It's like, you'll know them by their fruits. And she saw me, she saw addiction get lifted from me. She saw my demeanor change.

She saw my love for Jesus, my love for my faith just come alive in a way that's completely unexplainable. And I have to say, not just because I'm on here, but the show had a huge role in that as well. Guys like Keith Nestor, who was a Protestant convert, Dr. Scott Hahn, of course, these guys were instrumental in that conversion process because you get that sort of a Protestant preacher love for Jesus vibe, which is so great that they have, but then there are these beautifully devoted Catholics. So my point that I'm trying to say is like, okay, the apologetics have a time and a place,

but was it you or somebody else that says that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still? I got that from Jimmy Akin, who I think got that from someone else, but yes, I say that often. Yeah, and so I think that's kind of where I'm at is like, even on the Seamask show that I do with Tim Gordon,

Will Noland and Nick Stumpfhaus, we did a Crossing the Tiber series, part one and part two, and kind of just in response to these basic talking points just as a As a as a means of hey if the Protestant has a question, I'm gonna direct you over here It's not we're not trying to dunk on you These are just the responses to these these kind of like tired lines, but we're not gonna win them over with that We're gonna win them over I think with love with and a little bit of the cable

Let's talk about what the truth actually is so that was a a long winded point, but you get what I'm trying to say. That's awesome. You actually have a quote. See, this is how I first heard about you. Where did I, where did I message you from? I was in a country in Europe somewhere. My first episode with Seamask was, I think it was called Know Thine Enemy. And it was about the red pill because there was this big, I can't even remember what was going on, but it was this viral back and forth

between the quote unquote trad cons and the red pill guys. And so we did a response video, which was my first hosted podcast with Seamask. And you shared it. I thought that was so cool. And then it was- I thought it was excellent. Yeah, thank you very much.

That was like, I think to this day, I think it's still our most popular episode. And so, uh, and then I woke up in one morning in the beginning of May. And I was like, Matt, Fred, I said, this has got to be some spam or a fake account. And you're like, good night, mate. Welcome to the, you know, welcome home. And I love your work on the red pond. I thought that was awesome. And that's, I guess that's why I'm here. So I think I saw you on that video and I looked up your Instagram page and you've got some amazing

tweets that you put on Instagram and it's very similar what you just said there. Leading a faithful, well-ordered and loving family is an underrated form of apologetics. A household that bears real fruit often speaks louder than words. Love that. Oh, thank you. But the same is true. Like if you are happier, holier, manlier, your wife is more attracted to that and maybe more convinced by that than arguments. Totally. And then I realized too, it's like, it's not going to be me that convinces her. It's going to be the Holy Spirit that bridges the gap. You know, Christians,

even historically, we don't convert by brute force. It's like, you know, I'm reading about Aquinas, the traditional virtues, right? And it's like those, that three-step process of a person coming to faith is like the truth, a truth is proposed to the intellect, and then it's God's grace that invites you to respond to it. And that final piece is assenting your intellect to that truth. So I said, okay, well, I'm going to walk my faith as a Catholic, you know, walking toward confirmation because I'd received already communion and baptism. And so when she has questions, I'm going to ask her or answer those questions with love. And if I don't know, I'll say, I don't know, and I'll come back with the

best answer possible. And then it's a kind of like this ebb and flow where you kind of go in and have these discussions, bring them to mass, and then kind of just let the Holy Spirit work. And then it's, let's find a mass that's, you know, um, yes, Novus Ordo Parish. I'm not going to demean the novice order. There's plenty of amazing novice order parishes out there that I think would resonate with my wife. That's very family oriented and community based. And that's what we did.

And now she's, you know, she's become on fire for it. God willing, she's going to be doing our CIA. That's we're actually going to an Eastern liturgy now as a Maronite liturgy. Yeah. Because, you know, she's from Lebanon. I said, I really want her to connect with, you know, her heritage and with her faith, like St. Sharble, St. Maroon, St. Ravka. Like man, just so excited about that. So excited. Cause we go to an Arabic mass. And so my father-in-law is coming

with me and he's just over the moon. Like my in-laws are watching the Maronite mass at home now. And my oldest sister-in-law is inquiring the faith to- Mason- What do you mean at home? Jason- Like at home, they're streaming it at home. They're older. They don't like to go out and go out every Sunday, but my father-in-law will often come. And it's just so amazing seeing that us kind of come together in that worship, but it inspiring them to even start to practice it themselves or at least inquire it. And so that's's the point I'm not sitting there with my in-laws talking about how you know, Jesus is God and not a prophet It's it's how they've seen me change and my you know

And then me trying to accommodate my wife and what I think that she would appreciate We've gone to the TLM and it was beautiful and she really loved it. But with two very young children She couldn't really appreciate it for what it was, but yeah, we're kind of doing a bit of both I've go to the TLM once a week and a low mass in the morning and then we're going to go to the, we go to the Maronite Liturgy on Sunday. It's, it's so beautiful. My, my daughters, Amadea and Seraphina just got baptized at the end of July and that was one of the greatest moments of my life. Like them in their little white dresses, like in the water on their head. Like I, I was gonna become emotional if I think about it too much.

And then on May 7th, getting confirmed. And that's why it's so trippy that I'm sitting here talking to you about this. It's like a tidal wave. It just happened. Yeah. It's all happening quick. Totally.

Yeah. And what's really interesting too about that confirmation process was like, it was like one of the greatest days of my life. It was so funny. So I was just thrown in to a confirmation ceremony if you will or mass if you will with a bunch of 13 year olds.

So I called a month prior. I said so when are you doing your confirmation? Like what we're doing in a month. Would you like to come? It's the first confirmation mass that the bishop has done in five years. So I said Mike, praise Jesus. How providential is this? You know? So I show up, the bishop is there, and there's a bunch of 13 year olds. And I'm there with my suit, like, you know, looking the way that I do. I'm like, this is kind of a little strange. And I'm the last guy to go up, and the bishop looks at me, and he gives me like a once over, and he goes, good for you. You're like, what the hell is that supposed to mean? Yeah, I'm like, I know what that's supposed to mean. It's okay. And so he like grabs my hand,

like pulls me, good for you. God bless you.'s okay. He grabs my hand and pulls me in, good for you, God bless you, welcome home. It was so beautiful. And so that, and then the next morning, it's God's providence just laying stuff in front of me. I'm on Twitter and I stumble upon something about my marriage actually not being recognized as a marriage in the Catholic church

because my wife's not Catholic, I'm baptized Catholic, we're civilly married, but we're not sacramentally married. Right. And then I read something about, well, we shouldn't be having sex during this time, which can be no, we're essentially fornicating. And so there was a bit of time where I was kind of ignoring this, I was like, this can't be, I'm trying to find ways around it, I'm calling different priests to kind of get different opinions Some people actually didn't even they weren't even able to answer so I call the traditional Latin mass priest and he says well

You have two options Either you live like brother and sister and you continue to partake in the sacraments Yeah, or you don't partake in any of the sacraments essentially like living in a state of mortal sin until it's done So like you discern that for yourself. Okay, well there was two people that were really instrumental in me deciding to just stay celibate with my wife. One of them was my good friend and kind to mine,

Chris, shout out to Chris. He said, Mike, when you and your wife were first dating, did you honor the no sex before marriage? I said, no. I was still on the heels of the red pill stuff. And I didn't, I didn't think that was necessary. He goes, well, what better way to honor your bride and honor God than to wait now? Go Chris. Yeah, Chris, love you, man. For those at home. So there's, there's, there's valid marriage and then sacramental marriage. And so I just

don't want people to think. Sure. Yes. So you can be validly married without being sacramentally married, but because you were baptized a Catholic and your wife too? No. It doesn't matter. The fact that you were baptized a Catholic meant that the church has the right to regulate marriages of its citizens. And we got married outside of the church. The thing is, like, a baptized Catholic and a non-Catholic can still get sacramentally married. It just has to be within the church. You have to go through the the pre-cana or whatever, the wedding preparation. Yeah, disparity of cult, I think is what they call it. That's right. So you didn't get that. So then how long did you have to wait before you could come together again? Yeah, so it was Tim and then Tim, because Tim and Steph Gordon are the godparents of my youngest,

and Will Nolan and Rachel Nolan are the godparents of my oldest. Beautiful. And I remember Tim talking to me before their baptism, and he said, listen bro, he goes, I would say this to your daughter who you've entrusted me with. He says, God exists outside of tradition, sacraments, scripture, all of this stuff. He goes, but you don't want to take that gamble with your salvation. He goes, just wait. Just wait, honor God, just wait. I said, man, okay. So it was like, it was like seven weeks. So it wasn't that long. But man, when you're married. Seven weeks is is a long time you're living in the same house We've been married for several years together. Yeah, that's and I'm I'm a

Over-the-top attracted to my wife like, you know, like all of my and I speak about this on my social media Like I avert my eyes. I don't look at anything. It's just her She's the only woman in my life that I look at and I'm like, that's that's who I want to be with That's who I want to engage in the act with, if you will. And so this period of seven weeks was incredibly difficult, but it was so, it was so transformative and a spiritual sense for me as an individual, but for both of us as a couple, um, in a way that I, I, I can't properly explain.

So then we came together again after receiving the sacrament There was like this lightning bolt of I don't even know what you'd want to call it Not even you're just and I'm telling you even physical sensation But even taking that like the more tangible part aside. There was this this experiential piece That I can't describe That it made me completely understand and and at least that came to this realization, why this is saved for this sacrament, this indissoluble union. It was just, it's... That's wonderful. Man, I want to get back to that, but before we do, let's move on to the red pill,

because we're going to title it this. Sure. I asked my local supporters if they had any questions for you. Right. And a lot of people just don't know what the red pill even means so maybe we could begin there what's what is that yeah so I think where people get confused with the red pill is they think red pill they're like what do you mean that that's not the red pill is it no no no guys like Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson guys that are kind of waking people up from like the the Psyop that is mainstream media that you're being red-pilled politically yeah yeah that yeah, yeah, that's like, I guess,

the more traditional term for red pill, like you're kind of coming to the realization, this awakening, obviously, this is a reference to the Matrix, the red pill and the blue pill. The red pill, like you're awake to the cold reality of the world and the blue pill, you kind of stay blissfully ignorant. Now, as it relates to this version of the red pill,

if you will, guys like Andrew Tate and Rolo Tommasi, people like that, it's a version of the red pill, if you will, guys like Andrew Tate and Rollo Tomasi, people like that, it's a branch of the Manosphere. And the Manosphere started as like, pick up artistry, I think in the late 90s, early 2000s. And so it relates essentially to sexual dynamics between men and women and how the world is governed by this gynocentric world order that feminism rules the legal system and marriage,

marriage is rigged against men, and that men have been Psy-Opped, masculinity has been Psy-Opped, and that there's been this concerted effort to sort of subvert masculinity, it's either toxic or they're trying to turn all these guys into like these simpy little nice guys. And then there's this concept of hypergamy

where women usually date up and they're always looking to branch swing little nice guys. And then there's, you know, this concept of hypergamy where, you know, women usually date up and they're always looking to branch swing to the more superior mate and sort of waking men up to the cold, hard realities of dating sexual dynamics between men and women. But it's really oriented toward women and it's sort of how bad they are. They'll all argue with me because it's like Andrew Tate's not red pill, this guy's not red pill, so there's kind of like this... We just spoke about fragmentation.

That's right. He has another example. Exactly, and what I will say is that from a diagnostic perspective, they don't get a lot of these things wrong. A lot of these things are correct, right? There is this kind of gynocentric world order. You know, as Father Ripper said it, like feminism is sort of the manifestation of hell on earth like we've seen how it's just Destroyed our culture from the very beginning at the Seneca Falls Convention where it's how do we you know destroy the family? We chop off the head of the patriarch and so if there's no head of the family we can kind of effectively control Men and women and remove women from the household and Doctrinate them into thinking that it's better for them to have careers and to take care of their families and that they should rule over their husbands and not the other way around.

And now you see this this sort of like inversion. So they're not exactly wrong. It's the prescriptions that become utterly degenerate that, you know, ultimately will have your soul in the depths of hell. If you love to go to its natural end. So how did you buy into this? Where were you? How old were you? What happened? So I'm a product like of many of these men of like the single mother household In my grandfather who's my hero immigrant Italian guy taught me a lot about being a man But these sort of intricacies of the courtship and marriage and being virtuous yet

He did he's from a farm in southern Italy. I mean, God bless him. He taught me a lot. But that piece was and plus nobody can replace your earthly father. And we see this, you know, how many issues come with not having a dad in the home, like increased rates of incarceration, drug use, you know, mental health issues, etc. etc. Things like that. So I was sort of raised traditionally like the nice guy, because the product of my single mom,

I felt more comfortable being around women forever. And then so there's these two interesting, well, this one path that led me there, I guess in a roundabout way, but it was the perfect storm, and this is what I mean, is I was over 300 pounds at one point. Okay, I was a competitive powerlifter in my late teens, early twenties. I've always been pounds at one point. Okay, I was a competitive power lifter in my late teens, early twenties.

I've always been the chubby kid. Always had some insecurities around that. Yeah. I would not believe it. Oh, 100% dude. So when you say 300 pounds, you mean fat. You don't mean I was super buff? Yeah, I was lifting, so I was kinda like,

I was fat, I was like fat jacked. Okay. I was a bit fuscular, but more fat. There was this picture of me in a red shirt after a meet, and I looked like a red circle. I looked like the Kool-Aid man. It was really, it was kind of sad looking back, but I got up to over 300 pounds.

I was a very mediocre heavyweight. So anyways, I decided one day, this was like June of 2014, to start losing weight. So anyways, started to do that. And as I lost like 50 or 60 pounds, I lost 120 pounds in 14 months. How'd you do that? Just tracking my food, weighing my food, exercising regularly, paying attention. So

I went from the fat guy to the ripped guy in 14 months very quickly, completely drug-free. But it was right before I hit that ripped point that I discovered the red pill. How? To be honest, I don't even remember how I stumbled upon it. I think there was this guy named Victor pride back in the day, it was 30 days of discipline. It was kind of like red pill, adjacent, cold showers, meditation, reading the stoics. I think if I remember correctly, people in the comments, I'm sure we'll, we'll correct me on this, but, and then it naturally led me to cause the red pill was a sub Reddit.

It was on Reddit before. So I discovered this and it was all this, you know, don't be the nice guy. There's some good stuff about it. The self improvement aspect, get your money together, get your body together. The problem is it's oriented towards the self. It's not oriented toward eternity in God. So it's the glory of self, not the glory of God. Right? So I didn't understand this at the time, but it also taught sort of how to, how a man should act with women on these dates. You know, these sort of manipulative tactics one could do to sort of kind of get them a

little hooked on you, if you will, or to sleep with multiple partners or multiple women. That was kind of a big thing too. And so I discovered this and it kind of popped that whole balloon of like, okay, why were these girls breaking up with me? Why was I not being very successful in these dates? And now it was like, I was traversing through the desert and I stumbled upon water for the first time. I was like, oh my goodness. So I drank from the entire well of the red pill.

And as I was getting in really good shape, I weaponized this. I deployed all of these tactics. You know, I spun the plates, if you will, seeing multiple girls at one time, I, you know, employed the dread game. So essentially manipulating a woman to have her think that you're always, you're cheating on her or you're going to cheat on her. And so she's kind of always at your mercy. And so you're seeing multiple of these women at once. And it's like, okay, three to six months passes. Once she gets a little bit too attached to you,

once she tries to push toward a relationship once or twice, cut her off and replace her with somebody else. Don't text her back right away, kind of play the... It's all very performative. It's all very... You're hiding behind this veil of just... It's narcissistic. What's the rationale for dating multiple women, sleeping with multiple women? Like how do they justify that in a way that sounds somewhat virtuous and presume they try? Yeah, it's so you can understand women so you don't get screwed. Okay. So it's an, you're operating from defense always. It's like sleep with 50 plus women so you understand them.

I said, but like to me now that's like, that's utterly ridiculous. And so I learned the hard way that sexual experience is not something that you get out of your system. Like we're all told it's you get it into your system and it's hard to get it out. There's some serious like deep spiritual scarring that happens as a result of that, right? So I did this for years and it's also too, a perfect storm, I lost all the weight.

I started a business, it was like immediately successful. I started a gym that I actually just sold a couple of months ago, it was the end of June. And I had that gym for eight years. So it's the three things, it's the sex, six pack, and six figures, and I was doing all of those things. You were doing those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely, and. What was it like? Was it fantastic, were you happy? No. Oh. Dude, it was like, you stare long enough into the abyss, it stares back at you. How, I mean, is it kind of the thrill of the chase

until you realize you've got it, and then what it is? Or is it like a drug, you know, where once it dies off, it actually, it does give you something. And so you rush after it again, you get that high, but it's short-lived. Yeah, it's both. It's both. It's the thrill of the chase.

And then once you get it, you're like, oh, that kind of wasn't as cool as the chase was, or so I thought. But it was like a drug. I found myself, you know, it's three in the morning and I'm peering outside the window, like waiting for her to pull up, like the drug addict waiting for the drug dealer to show up. Right. And with each encounter, I felt myself, I was drinking more.

I was, and it wasn't on purpose, like it just happened as a byproduct of it. I just, I felt I was deeply lonely. What I knew in my heart was like I just I just didn't want to be alone. But I didn't know how to go about actualizing that. I thought this was the way like why am I so unhappy? Is there something wrong with me that I'm doing what let's say 90% of guys want to do and they're all like, you know, you're so you're so lucky all day. I wish I was in your shoes. It's like, but you don't though, because I'm going home and I'm not understanding why I feel so empty and why with each encounter and the more depraved it got, the more drugs and more alcohol that I indulged in,

it just got worse. And I realized that, like, I think every man has this desire imprinted on him when he's young to take care of one woman and to love one woman and to be with her, to honor her, and to raise a family together. I think implanted into all of us is the wanting, the longing to raise a family together. I think I think implanted and implanted into all of us. Is the the wanting the longing to be a loving, godly patriarch. I truly think that we're not many of us come to actualize that or realize that. But that's what I came to realize.

I said, I just I just want one woman to dedicate myself to. And I'm doing all of these things and people around me are telling me it's good. But I'm depressed and I'm suicidal Because on the on the surface like yeah, Mike's the player. He's successful. He's doing the thing but I was slipping further and further into the abyss and then it got to the point where I Met my wife and When we were dating the first time I completely royally screwed it up because I Now had trained myself to not be worthy of something real or genuine anymore. I

Met this this wonderful woman were sitting across from each other And I said I am absolutely not on this woman's level what what am how am I gonna lead her? She's in love with her faith. She wants to start a family She just wants to be at home all of these beautiful things. She loves me Like what can I give her? I'm an empty cup I can't lead her I can barely lead myself Right, and so there was multiple times I when we were dating I didn't end up going through with it

Of course, and I almost cheated on her almost as a way of self sabotaging didn't happen and I think you you know you treat yourself and others like a cheap sexual object long for long enough And and I think that's all you end up thinking that you deserve and so it was right before kovat started That I broke up with her. I said just I can't Like you're incredible, but I don't know what to do with you I just I can't Like you're incredible, but I don't know what to do with you And she was heartbroken

Because she I'm like, why do you even why do you feel this way toward me? I don't even get it. And so we broke up and I went on just a Bender and a tear that I was at the bottom of the bottle bottom of the barrel back flat on the ground and I, I woke up out of this hangover one morning and I said, Jesus, I need you right now. Like, I'm doing all of these things that are supposed to be good for me, but I find myself, you know, either you follow God's law or you break yourself against it, and I was breaking myself against it. Like, either you find yourself, you know, indulging so much in yourself that sin makes you stupid, and you think, okay, I'm just gonna do more of it.

And that's where I guess the concept of just being turned over to your sin, like, here, you're now a reprobate mind. That's why I joke around and call it the reprobate pill. But I woke up, and it was God's grace. It's God's grace. I woke up that one morning. I said, I, why did you call out to Jesus specifically? Because I, I, I called myself a Christian. Okay. At that point, I'd come back to the faith. I have all this, I've St. Michael, the archangel. I'm doing this as you're engaging in this thing. So this is the thing about the tattoo stuff to get on a side tangent.

So being self-employed from a young age, I was not a criminal before despite having tattoos on my hands, on my neck, even though they're so common nowadays, like it's more rebellious to look like you than it is to look like me. Right? It's funny. I want people to do that more. Yeah, me too. Me too. Yeah. As I say, I don't think there's anything wrong with tattoos per se, but I think we should make them taboo again. I fully agree. I fully agree. And it seems really ironic and hypocritical coming from me,

but the reason I got them as a young sort of entrepreneur self-employed hotshot guy was to glorify me This guy I Wanted to sort of kind of keep people away by kind of looking intimidating like don't come near me I don't want you near me even though I'm not like that at all at all. I'm a loving guy I like having the company of people. I like having these types of conversations And it was a means of glorifying myself like I just wanted to look like I was this kind of guy. Yeah, so I got him on my hands and my neck as a way of saying I'm never getting a real job again. I'm this it's just gonna be me, bro. Yeah, so it's prodigal son. It's that's it. But it's interesting that you got Christian tattoos.

Yeah, cuz I still believed in Jesus, but I was like cherry picking the Bible. I'm like, okay, I can sleep. This is all antiquated. This is these are these are stories to kind of teach me about life, but I was like cherry picking the Bible. I'm like, okay, I can sleep. This is all antiquated. This is, these are, these are stories to kind of teach me about life, but like, okay, I'm not, I'm going to ignore those parts that make me uncomfortable. I mean, that that's basically, that's what it was. I have Jesus, the crown of thorns. I've got Ephesians six 11 of all of this, uh, Catholic sacred heart Catholic imagery, despite being a Protestant at the time. But I got it just cause I thought it looked cool. What are you gonna get Protestant imagery?

What does it even look like? It doesn't even exist. That's actually true. Catholics are only awesome. That's a good point. What am I gonna get like a tattoo of John Calvin or Martin Luther? Or a bare empty church with no paintings or icons.

A KFC church. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's where the tattoos came from. This is where I have a lot of content on social media talking about, hey, think about it before you do it and we I'm not the arbiter of truth masculinity. This is my opinion I just think it's very very hard to not glorify yourself and getting a tattoo on you like you can have Catholic or Christian imagery, but Why do you have to permanently etch that into your skin? I don't get it. I can't find a way around it

I actually think it makes people uglier. I don't get it. I can't find a way around it. I actually think it makes people uglier. I also agree. And one thing I've I've been fascinated lately is how people seem to be trying to make themselves ugly. I see a lot of women and I think it's like you were beautiful and you've tried to make yourself ugly and you've almost succeeded. You know, with the forgive me, ladies who are watching with the tats.

I mean, look, I've got a tat, you know, but there's something very gross about it. I don't I'm really glad that my wife never got one. Yeah, I know. I totally agree. My wife has them too. So we look kind of like this like I couple when we go to church is like it kind of everybody looks at us. It's like a this was like a different life. I think I think that's what happens.

I think if you and your wife were in prison or you were a sailor, it would be cool Right neither one of us have ever been but now it's just like we're all bored That's what it is. We're all drawing on ourselves But I also think it's like when you're outside of God's protection in that way when you're just kind of living for yourself The demonic realm makes you do stupid things that make you Uglify God's creation. Yeah. think that. I think that's right. Yeah, we become, we look less and less human with the purple hair and the piercings.

And it's like, how far away can I get from being human? Yeah. That's, that's one, that's wild. So were you afraid? I mean, it sounds to me that the red pill kind of teaches you to be afraid of intimacy. It totally does. Not need it. That's probably a sign of weakness maybe to need it.

Yes. When you find it within yourself as you were dating your wife, I could see that being maybe a scary experience. Because if you're intimate with someone, they can reject you. If you don't share your inner life with them, there's nothing to reject. It's just the externals. Yeah. I think a friend of mine, Pat Coffin says says it's not the red pill, it's the black pill because it makes you a doomer. It's so true because this is one of the, you know, red pill quote that a lot of these guys live by. It's not, she's not yours, it's just your turn. It's ugly. It's ugly. So you're operating in this way that's not authentic. You can't actually even be real with the woman,

you know, much less have any kind of longevity in a relationship because it's like, well, dude, she's just eventually going to leave you or she's going to end up post wall. And so to these guys, post wall means like post peak sexual marketplace value rating, if you will. So pass like 25. It's like just why, why would you want a woman past 25? Why would you want to get married? You're going to get screwed over. It's just a matter of time until she takes you to the cleaners, bro. Right.

So is there an off ramp for the red pill? Because earlier you were saying, well, the way they justify sleeping with multiple people is you want to try to understand women. Maybe you want to be better at sex. These are the lies that you hear. Is there some kind of off ramp where people where people in the red-pelt community say, but eventually, you know, settle down and that's okay? Or no? Yeah, it's really weird because it just depends on who you talk to.

Yeah. Because, you know, for example, Rolla Tomasi is married. Yeah, it's not like they have a catechism that you can share. Yeah, no, they're not. It's very fragmented and fractured. Like, Andrew Tate, despite having children with different women, says that, yeah, it's a good thing to be married and to have kids. It's okay. It's kind of confusing. So that's why, you know. Mason, how did you view your future? I mean, maybe you said you were suicidal, so maybe you didn't have much thought about your future, but did you think even in the height of this

Red Bull experience that, you know, one day I'd like to settle down? Yeah, there was that, but I thought to myself, I said, but I have to put on this game and it's exhausting. You're like white knuckling through these relationships and you end up attracting a type of person and you end up sort of perpetuating a kind of trauma. In yourself and these other women. So it's like it's like a confirmation bias. It's like you're you're all women are such low quality. And what happens, you end up kind of attracting low quality women.

You're a low quality guy. So like you don up kind of attracting low quality women, you're a low quality guy. So like you don't even deserve a high quality woman to begin with. And so in so many of these instances, dating some of these women, it's like I had to white knuckle this fake persona. And eventually, you know what happens? It all comes crumbling down,

because they see through it, it's not real. And it ends up being borderline abusive and tyrannical. Some of the stuff that I've done, I'm not talking about anything physical, some of the stuff that I've done, I'm not talking about anything physical, some of the stuff that I've done psychologically, like manipulatively, just so I could have the upper hand, it just makes me shudder. It's the things that I've repented for.

So I said to myself, how can I be married? If I have to use these tactics for a lifetime, I'd rather just kill myself. I'm not gonna do this. So, but of course, like, that's kind of maybe not all relationships outside of being Catholic are like that, but if your posture isn't oriented toward eternity with this person that is, that is you, you guys are one flesh, how, how, how else can you make this union last the test of time?

Doesn't make sense. Outside of the Christological worldview, if you will, there's nothing much there, I don't think. Yeah. No, it makes sense. If you have a nihilistic view of the universe, if you have a godless view of the universe, then the red pill thing makes a little bit of sense to me.

Totally. This is the only life I've got. I need to get it while I can and that's life. But then as you say, my friend John Henry says that God will forgive you but nature won't. Right. Yeah. Kind of like what you said earlier about breaking yourself up against God's law. Like God will forgive you, but then you will be left with the scars. Like nature will not forgive you. Jason Vale Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I can somewhat see why these guys end up sort of are bitter. They're alone. A lot of times I think the, what the Red Pill gets right is that there's this epidemic of male loneliness, but I think it's also so ugly because they've capitalized on it. It's like, yeah, you're, the world's beating you down. It's declining, but enjoy

the decline. Here's my gum road link. What is that? Gum road is just like a e-commerce platform. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. You know, get, get, get, get into my gum road. It's like, it's depressing out there, but I'll show you, I'll show you the way I'll show you how to surf the wave of the decline down. And I think it was Will Nolan that said it recently, we were talking about, uh, Noah and expanding on the masculinity of Noah and there was no riding the decline with Noah. It's like he just believed and trusted God in his providence and he just did what he was supposed to do, built the ark over 120 years, unwavering faith, despite some of the doubts. In enjoying the decline, you become the

decline. So this is what really kind of like, uh, I don't understand about the red pill too. It's kind of funny is you complain that there are all these promiscuous women, yet you're creating more of them. And so it's kind of like spitting in the air and then complaining at lands right on your forehead. You're like, man, why did that happen? You know what I'm saying? And so I think, but I think there's also kind of like this, this weird perspective of, you know, if men just decided to not just engage in what their PP told them to do,

that women would come around. I think it's got to be twofold. I think the majority of it is male leadership and virtue and chastity and honoring, you know, sex within the confines of marriage. But it's also women calling each other out as well. Cause women listen to women, they care about other women's opinions. So it's, it's, it's, it's two parts. Heavy is the head that wears the crown, we're the leaders. So yeah, it's going to be maybe 65, 70 percent ups, maybe a little bit more. It's also on the women to shame the other women too. And there's also this kind of thing in

the trad con space, which I think is so ridiculous, is like, I agree that a formerly promiscuous man or woman can become a new creation in Christ. But you have to understand that there's going to come, there's going to be consequences that come with that. I knew on the back of what I've done, I may not get the highest quality woman because how dare I impose this, this standard that I didn't even hold for myself. It's just utter hypocrisy, right? The same thing for women. And so I see these red pill guys saying,

well, did you, hey, did you wait to sleep with your husband before marriage? Or did you sleep before marriage? Or were you a virgin or whatever? It's like, I understand where you're coming from. Okay, that makes sense. I don't believe in a gospel of condemnation, perpetual condemnation.

That's what these guys do. It's like, well, if you're not a virgin, then you should just remain perpetually promiscuous. But we also should be telling men and women, like, hey, if you care about marriage, if there's the slight inkling that you want this in the future, like, preserve yourself for that. I think what's difficult, because I think a man or a woman are completely justified to say, I'll only get married to a virgin. That's what I want to do. Now, you may not want to set the parameters that tightly because the Lord might have someone in store for you, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing. I think so too.

More than reasonable to want to marry someone who hasn't had sex with somebody. I think what's difficult is we are living in the aftermath of the sexual revolution and the brokenness of it. And so it's almost like we're in this war-torn land, except everything doesn't look war-torn. That's well said. in this war-torn land, except everything doesn't look war-torn. And, yeah, we're just, we have to somehow show each other grace and mercy and the idea that I'm going to marry a woman from the 1920s or... Well that's my point too, like free love is feminist, the feminists' last laugh. Like that's how they really get you, right?

And without going there for a second, it's, I truly believe, and I, so some guys are going to tear me apart for this. A man does not sit in the shade of the tree that he's planted. Right? So it's not to say that go out and marry these formerly promiscuous women. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, I think in the society that we, that we exist in now, we ought to have realistic standards. that we exist in now, we ought to have realistic standards. And so that can mean different things for different people. And so, and also too, if you're not a virgin, you should not expect one. How like hypocritical, I

expect a virgin. Was I a virgin? Like dude, absolutely not. It was like the opposite of that. So I'm gonna come here and expect that I get one. I might be lonely for the entirety of my life. And there's some of these, there are frustrated, you know, good looking, well demeanored Christian men that are virgins are like, but what about me, man? Like I'm a virgin. It's like, I get it, dude. But you have a choice to either just wait and hope to God that divine providence brings you this perpetually celibate chased woman or You find a really good woman that is not going to have all green flags because you also do not have all green flags And just be okay with that and then just walk the path forward

That's a difficult thing to hold intention though, right because we want this This perfect utopia, but it's in order for us to I think get to get to that place, we're not going to sit in the shade of that tree. So for me, and I was, I gotta say, I was very fortunate. Like I was one of the lucky ones and I met my wife and how incredible she was and is, but I'm really gonna teach my daughters that. So it's like, okay, well that man that's saving himself, you're also gonna save yourself as well and that's how we create this ripple effect of virtue in the cultures to come or in the society to come.

I cut you off when you talked about waking up and crying out to our Lord. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to hear the rest of that story. So where were you? You said you woke up. You want a bender the night before? Definitely.

I was I mean, I was yeah, I was drinking a lot at that point. So I woke up in this drunken stoop, and I was smoking cigarettes on my deck with my grandfather. And I just thought, I said, I'm helpless on my own. I've done the thing. I've been fairly successful. I've had these physical accomplishments, and powerlifting, and lifting, and whatnot.

And done these things with all these women accomplishments and powerlifting and lifting and whatnot and done these things with all these women and here I am like broken, like not wanting to live anymore. I don't want to just, I don't want to leave my room. Life is just, I'm just despondent. And I cried out to Jesus. I said, Jesus, you know, save me. You know, I just, I don't know what to do. And I remember a good friend of mine sent me a song by the, he's a Christian rapper. His name is Seven of Hog Mob. And it's Protestant rap, but I mean... How old is this fellow? I think I've heard of him. Yeah, he's... He's been gone for a while? He's been doing it for a while. He's been doing it for a while. I think he's, I don't know if he still makes music. I've seen him in some recent songs, but this guy's one of my

favorites. I don't care Protestant or not, this guy's doing, I think, really honestly beautiful work for the kingdom Yeah, and so there was this particular song That my good friend Spiro sent to me and he he said listen to this bro And I was drunk when I was listening to this and it was sovereign the sovereign remix It was this guy about to commit suicide and it was you know Seven kind of talking as God toward this guy and I was just weeping so you had Christian friends then yeah Yeah, and shout out to speared like I toward this guy, and I was just weeping. So you had Christian friends then? Yeah. Yeah. And shout out to, I love this guy, he sent me this song and it like hit me at the right moment.

I was like half drunk, I was like in my room, I was dark, and I listened to this, I just was beside myself. I'm like, okay, this, I... And I didn't have any on-fire Christian friends. I had some Christian friends and he was one of them for sure and he's on fire now praise God. The only person I knew was my wife who was just then the person that I really hurt at the time. Who you just broke up with. I just broke up with like three months prior and I sent her a text and then man the amount of times that I text her or message her when I was high on drugs or drinking at the time and she was always so graceful, so patient. Like, man, bless her for real. Like it's, I sent her a message. I said, listen,

you have every right to just never talk to me again. Of course, like just block my number. Um, but I really just want to talk about Jesus. Can we meet up and can we talk about the Lord? Like you're the most on fire person I know in the faith. Like I have no, there's no underlying motivation here. Just don't want to talk about God. So we did, we met up at Pacific Spirit Park in Vancouver and we were talking about the Lord. And even after that meeting, it was like, yeah, I had no intentions of getting back with her, but what a beautiful conversation we had. And she was just the same loving, gracious, sunshiny person that I know now, even more so now. And so later that week she messaged me she said

and in my mind I was like I'm the red pill guy, I can't be friends with a woman. But my spirit was starting to shift in such a way where I was I said if the worst-case scenario here is that I just gain a sister in the faith that somebody that helps me at this low point, I'm like, praise God for that. Even in my degenerate, like reprobate mind at that time, I still thought that. Okay. So a week later she messaged me, she said, hey, I know you're gonna, you're trying to not drink as much, like why don't we just go get sushi together and just, you know, talk about the faith. I said, okay, great, cool. And I just, I loved hanging out with her. And

it was nine months later, we were married with our first kid on the way. That's beautiful. What did you first try to quit after you woke up and called out to our Lord? Were you convicted that you have to give up the fornication, the drunkenness, the drugs? Did you try to tackle all of it at once, one at a time? It was a very confusing process because I still drank a bit and it was, it was in varying levels over, you know, a couple of years, honestly, it had been a thorn in my side up until even somewhat recently.

And this was part of my Catholic reversion. That was, I think one of the most powerful parts of my testimony there was, but for me, it was like, I'm just ready to leave this, at least this fornicate, even though her and I were having sex before marriage, at least the rampant sleeping with multiple people, I wanted to leave that behind me. I saw this person I could marry and I truly believe God used her in such a way that brought me closer to him because I had to step up to the plate to lead her spiritually. And I failed at that for the first little bit, even as a married,

I did the best that I could. We bought a home, bought a vehicle, did the thing, married her, you know, I'll never forget. It was January 28th. And she was hovering over me. She's like, I'm pregnant. And it was like my whole world was shattered in the best way. It was like, okay, this new, this new me is, is emerging, but mainly it was the fornication piece, even though again, we were having sex before marriage. Um, I just wanted to, I wanted to become a man. I wanted to actualize that vision of a family. And that was the beginning of that sort of like hero's journey for me was,

you know, my daughter, I'm a day I came into the world and, and that, that was another thing too. I thought it was going to be a little boy. It's convinced it was going to be a little boy. I was convinced it was going to be a little boy. We didn't find out. And so when we were in the, the, the, the, the hospital, they're like, dad, do you want to announce the, the sex? I said, yes, absolutely. So they showed me her little butt and I didn't,

I didn't realize unbeknownst to me, like little girl parts at birth are kind of puffy. They look like little boy parts from behind. So I said, it's a boy. And they all stopped. They looked at me and they said, no, it's a girl. And in my head I was like, oh shit, it's a boy. And they all stopped. They looked at me. They said, no, it's a girl. And in my head, I was like, oh, it's a girl. And I was like, I was upset for a second. And then all this flashback of all this stuff that I did before.

I said, what am I going to do with a little girl? Now I have two of them. What am I going to do with a little girl? Look at the type of guy that I was like how and thank God for that. Cause if I had a little boy, I probably would have raised him like I was before. Cause I was, I remember having discussions with my wife saying, yeah, if we have a little boy, like I'm going to teach him, like he can go out and get some experience and that's good. But if it's a little girl, I'm going to keep her in a cage.

She's got to wait like just completely. But it's so, how common is this line of thinking? Right? So common. But I really, I was upset about this at first. And so it really made me look inside of myself in such a way where, man, if my little girl comes home with a guy that was even remotely like me before, I know I'd have failed as a man. You ever seen that clip from Bad Boys? Bad Boys 2?

Oh, when they come to the door with the guns? Yeah, I can see because you said Tim Gordon is your daughter's godfather. I can see something like that. Taking place, you and Tim showing up at the door with the guns? Yeah, I can see because you said Tim Gordon is your daughter's godfather. I can see something like that taking place, you and Tim showing up at the door. It's but instead of guns, it's like rosaries. Oh, I don't know. It depends on how bad the guy is. He does live in the South. So that's funny. Yeah, we got we don't have very stringent gun laws in Canada. So maybe they'll have to be in the South. I want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called strive21.com slash Matt. You go there right now or if you text strive to 66866, we'll send you the link.

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We had a whole camera crew come and film this. And I think it'll be a really, a real help to you. And it's also not an isolated course that you go through on your own because literally tens of thousands of men have now gone through this course. And as you go through the different videos, there's comments from men all around the world encouraging each other, offering to be each other's accountability partners and things like that. Strive 21, that's Strive21.com slash Matt, or as I say, Text STRIVE to 668 hard to break. We can have this sort of idealistic idea of where I want to be. But then it's the day to day stuff.

How did you kind of begin to break with the kind of promiscuity mindset? Because, you know, the wandering eyes, maybe the pornography, these that that sort of stuff. Did you have a difficult time breaking out of that? Yes. At the in the beginning of my marriage, uh, it wasn't, I was watching pornography, but I was, it was the self abuse was still happening, especially when she was like, you know, in between being pregnant or there's these times where I was really not a good

guy. It was really good. You use the word self abuse. We need to bring that back. Yeah, I think so too. Ugly words for ugly babies. Well that's exactly call it what it is. Yeah. Cause that's exactly what it is. It's, it's, it's self abuse. And it's just cheapening what is meant to be for this beautiful procreative and unitive act between men and women. Like that, that's again, another reason why I came back to the Catholic faith,

but I didn't really care nor was I convicted. Cause even for the first little bit, that the remnants of that mentality were still there. I still like the attention from other women. I was still, you know, my eyes, I was not controlling them. But so what had happened was we purchased a place in Vancouver and then I woke up one day hung over and I said, I need to leave my city for whatever reason. I said, I'm my wife is feeling kind of lonely. She doesn't have anybody to support her postpartum was kind of tough and I

wasn't being the best husband. So I said, okay, we're going to sell our place. We're going to build our, our house where, where you were raised. I said, and we're going to move there so you can be around your family. So you can have support while we're raising our family. That was like, I think one of, that was one of the greatest decisions I'd ever made. But for the first year after that, it was one of the worst decisions I thought that I'd ever made. But I said, I need to put my family on my back and remove myself from the

situation because I just don't see this getting any better. And so when I, when I moved to Alberta, that's when I started to really get closer to my faith. I was still drinking probably quite a bit, not probably. I was still drinking quite a bit and I had sorted out for the most part, the self abuse piece, pornography wasn't even a thing. thing like praise God. I was addicted to it for years For years and one of the reasons that kind of it sobered me up to think that I gotta quit this I had a horrific

Erectile dysfunction in my 20s. Please tell us about that I mean because This is something I used to talk a lot about to men when I would travel and speak I think it's really important that people hear about it. It is important. That's why I really like I've actually recommended to a lot of the guys that I work with strive 21. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for a lot of the work that you've you've done around porn using the platform around porn. It's so destructive.

But I was in that wild. Tray irony of how it takes away. It promises a sexual satisfaction and leaves us just pathetic. Get completely pathetic where you can't even, you can't perform like a normal man. Yeah. I was, you don't have to get into that if that's too personal. Dude, I lay this all out on social media anyways. Like if people want to judge me for it, this is what I mean. I got no dirt. The dirt's already out there. You know what I'm saying? So were you coming together with ladies and not being outperforming? There would be a lot of times where that would happen. But what would blunt that

was erectile dysfunction medication. There are going to be a lot of guys watching this that are like, yeah, I've used Cialis and I'm 20. I've used Viagra and both. I'm 22. I've often used both of them. I was prescribed it when I was like 18. There was this disconnect between my mind and my body. Yeah. And so when I started to think about this and it was like, if this is how this is manifesting physically, what's going on spiritually? And that I kept, I kept running into that question and then not to mention when I would,

there'd be the times where I would quit. And I'm sure you've experienced this too. When you quit and you go through a flat line period where you feel there's nothing, you're dead down there, it's nothing. Your brain is rewiring itself. Um, but I was plagued by it in my late teens and my in through my twenties. And it was, it was the weirdest thing because I was like, I was trying to be this hotshot guy. And then a lot of the time I'd be so in my head because this has happened because a porn or whatever, or I needed porn to even just to perform.

It's like, I don't understand why this isn't talked about more publicly called probably because it's like a shameful topic. Like it's a little embarrassing, but imagine being prescribed that at 18 or 19 years old. And I, and old. And this is what's important about talking about it openly and publicly, because so many guys are silently suffering with it. And so that question of... And what's brutal about erectile, porn-induced erectile dysfunction is sometimes sialis and viagra doesn't even touch it because the problem isn't blood flow. Nope. The problem is between the ears. That's right.

Which is why you said you needed to watch the pornography because that's the way in which you can perform to then now perform physically with a woman. Even with the drugs sometimes it would be difficult. Yeah. Mind you there was also alcohol and everything else involved for sure that didn't help but even with the drugs it's like this, you realize

this is like a between the ears and a spiritual problem. So I kicked all that. Praise God. Praise God for that. That wasn't a problem, but it was, I realized I was coming to this point of kind of conquering lust for good. When I realized the last frontier was my eyes. Okay. That was like the heart. That was the hardest thing because you don't realize how autopilot that is. Yeah. The bouncing eyes. Poor. Because there's no like no one can see it. Well I mean unless you're gawking. Do you know what

I mean? So it's like to curb that no one's going to congratulate you for it. You said something in a podcast that inspired a piece of content I put on Instagram that I don't know it's probably like half a million or something views it got me thousands of followers it's really interesting but it's really basic. It was, um, next time you look at or next time you see a beautiful woman, look at the men around her. That's what I do. It's crazy. It's so sober. Cause you see that you see yourself in that man and how you're ugly. So that thing is ugly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The lustful gaze is objectifying. We use that word a lot, so it's lost some of its punch. But to objectify means to rob a person of their person and to leave them

as a sort of thing. That's right. And you see also not just with the gaze, but like the morose delectation that comes with it. Yeah. This just like you can see the wheels clicking in the mind and a lot of scrupulous Catholic men were like, what's the difference? Well, it's one thing to acknowledge a beautiful woman, just go about your day. You know, you see a woman at the airport, and you're like, okay, she's pretty, boom.

You just immediately pivot and you just move on. You don't just sit there and ruminate on the thoughts. I'm very scrupulous. When I go to confession, I'm trying to like, okay, I need to grab everything, you know, like what? But that's the distinction there, for sure. And so that was the final frontier. And so again, this is one of those things that really came to a full resolution.

You know, I mean, again, I don't sometimes you just don't control where your eyes go. And somebody just stumbles upon, you know, in your periphery or whatever in your your gaze. You're not lusting after them. I know what the difference is there with coming to the Catholic faith, what that's done for me. It's not just with alcohol and just seemingly like lifting this addiction from me, like effortlessly. Do you not drink at all anymore? I should I be drinking?

I feel like it's not like that. Oh, no, no, no, no, dude, dude, dude. Actually, so I'm not one of those teetotaler guys now. Because to me, it's like a big shiny red button. If I say I can't do it anymore, it's weird. It becomes really strange. I actually, I was reading confessions by St. Augustine's weird. It becomes really strange. I actually, I was reading, uh, confessions by St. Augustine about a week and a half ago.

I was like, I'm just gonna have a little, I like bourbon. I genuinely like bourbon. So I'll have a little glass and actually just hated the way that it made me feel after it was like three, four ounces. There was nothing like I was downing bottles and uh, it wasn't even to the point of hilarity like Aquinas says, right? Drink to the point of hilarity. Pretty sure he doesn't say that, but do you not say you can even to the point of hilarity like Aquinas says, right? Drink to the point of hilarity. Pretty sure he doesn't say that. But do you not say you can drink to the point of hilarity? Definitely not.

No, okay. You would know. I mean, I think I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. That's what people in comment sections love to do. Correct you. But I would I would bet he never said that. Well, whenever a quote from Aquinas sounds too good to be true, it's not true. Yeah, I've had that before too.

I'm like, I read this online. Somebody sure this is online, but it's not and you can look it up and you'll find that quote, but he doesn't say What oh No, he didn't say it find the finest source Well, I gotta do so I gotta like commit I gotta like do something no do erasing if I Yeah, it's definitely a possibly apocryphal. Okay. There you go Yeah, but I mean I suppose like we all drink in order to have some sort of physiological response. Sure.

There's nothing wrong with that. That's why people have a drink. It helps relax them, makes them more social or something like that. But anyway, you weren't doing that. You were- No, no, I was just like, I'm just gonna enjoy reading this book

and have some bourbon because I like bourbon. I just didn't like the way that it made me feel. I went to bed and I was kind of like, even though I was completely sober, I was like kind of feeling crappy. So it's not something I completely abstained from. Yeah. Again, because of that shiny red button syndrome, dude, I was like binge drinking for a long time and then I got it under control.

And then it was, uh, after I prayed my first rosary that I remembered my great grandmother who was devout Catholic devout. She had this, God bless little old Catholic women. I'm telling you, man, this, this woman was the closest thing to a saint that I've ever seen. She was 90 or 91 when she passed away. She had a botched back surgery in her teenage years, early 20s. So she was hunchbacked the majority of her life. She lost four or five children.

She took care of the orphans in her little village. And she wore black for 30 years after her husband passed away, still wore her ring, was just this angel. And she'd pray her rosary every day, every single day. And so I remembered that she would not eat meat on Fridays. I said, okay, so Fridays are obviously a day of penance, if you will. I think it's not necessarily binding that it has to be meat, just abstained from something from my understanding. I could be wrong.

I said, I'm just going to give up because Fridays were historically where they're really the hardest day for me to give Up alcohol. Yeah, I Said I'm just gonna give it up on Fridays I'm gonna give it to God this rosary kind of gave me this sort of like revelation of sorts and it just was you Many times I tried to quit before Matt like by my own strength and it just I always Failed because I needed it on Friday prayed that first rosary. It was game over. I'm not joking I don't mean to sound like guy because still he's like a rosary. He's the rosary warrior. No, you should sound, that's not a bad thing to sound like him. But I'm one of those guys that's like, yeah, this sounds, this sounds, this sounds cringy,

but no, the rosary is a weapon. That's what helped convert me. My reversion started in the intellect. And then there was that first rosary or that intercession to the blessed mother. I mean, praise Jesus today that we've done it and this might be released in the future or whatever, is the Nativity of the Blessed Mother said there's no coincidence there. That's who helped bring me to back to the faith and praise, praise God for that. But anyways, I'm all over the place, but that's what allowed me to quit alcohol. What was that? I guess I already asked you this, but what was the hardest thing to kick? And then at what point did you stop associating yourself with the red pill or at

what point did you start to realize it was just a lie? Was that a gradual thing? It was kind of a gradual thing. I think it was right up until when I got baptized in a Protestant church again, like it was very sincere. I had no idea at the time any of this stuff. I said, I just want to get baptized. I love Jesus so much.

So it was around that time. It was like October of 2022. That's when I started posting content on social media. Yeah. And the whole thing was I just want to start posting content about the red pill warning men of the danger of this lifestyle because I've been there a warning men of the dangers of pornography and just everything that we just spoke about. Those are exactly the videos I was beginning to make with like 50 followers, 100 followers. And it was around this time where like I completely I think left that behind I shed that skin and I was like I just wanted to be that husband and that father that I think God wants me to be So it was around that time. Okay, I got baptized and I thought it was a beautiful experience There was like a tremendous there was a lot of difficulty following that but I'm not sure people say everything spiritual warfare now

Right everything spiritual warfare, but I feel like there was something going on that led me to this point in November or December of last year, where I kind of came to this realization. I said, I actually don't know how to defend my theological worldview. And it kind of just dawned on me that like, it should have been obvious, but my most important job is guiding the souls of my family to heaven. That's it. I just had my, my daughter, my second youngest daughter, was like three months old. I got these two precious, beautiful girls, this amazing wife. I got to guide these souls to heaven. This is my job. I'm going to have to answer for how I led them. This, this is like, no matter, I was always focused on money and all this stuff, I said, this doesn't matter

because the man that makes 40K a year but is spiritually a provider is a much better provider than a man that's a billionaire but spiritually void. I was like, okay, so I ought to understand what I believe in because anytime a Catholic friend or an Orthodox friend would rebut me, if you will, I had nothing, I didn't know what to say back. Okay, well, I was at the Protestant church. We were at before.

It was like this evangelical charismatic kind of church and they were doing the monthly communion with the little cracker in the grape juice cup. This is before I really understood the Eucharist properly. I looked down and I remember this visceral feeling of disgust. I'm like where is this coming from? I said that this cannot be the body and blood of our Lord. This little grape juice. Like what is this? Like this is insulting. Like how can this be? This is before I understood the Eucharist. And I went home and I just kind of thought about this. I said this is so crazy. I

don't and then I just kind of shelved it for a bit. And then I said, okay, well I need to understand what I believe in. So when these Catholic bros and these ortho bros come at me, I can have a defense. So, okay, well I think I don't know what compelled me to look at church history. It was a John Henry Newman. Is that his name? Yeah. It says to look at history is to cease to be Protestant Right that was the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so what? The first person I read and I gotta thank Joshua Charles because I think it was one of his posts on Twitter

That pointed me in this direction. He's incredible apologist and Catholic Saint Ignatius of Antioch Early early father, right and it was specifically the epistle to the Smyrnaeans. Mason- Yeah, Smyrnaeans. Yeah. I'm not sure how you pronounce it, but yeah. Cogill- And it was talking about how people that deny the Eucharist are heretics. And where there is the bishop, there is the Catholic church. Mason- Right.

Cogill- I said, what? So I read all of his epistles. I was kind of like thinking about this a little bit more. And then I watched a video of Tim's where he put together this four-step scholars mate against sola scriptura and I started Indulging all these debates a lot of which on your channel and it was the debate with Patrick Madrid and James White that you hosted Doesn't a good job on that. Oh Impeccable. I said, okay, I Got it. I got gotta say this real quick. And this sounds really snarky, but James White's the greatest Roman Catholic apologist on the planet earth.

He's part of the reason I became Catholic. Really? Seriously. What was it specifically? Just arguments are bad. Okay. Just bad faith too. It just seemed really bad.

Just bad faith and bad arguments. Then who am I? I'm he's obviously more intelligent than I am, but there was something that I got from when he was debating Trent Horn or Jimmy Akin or Patrick Madrid. I'm like, this is falling flat on his face. So this was like this intellectual angle that I'm like, okay, I'm reading about the church fathers. I'm listening to all these debates. I heard Tim put together this four step scholars made against a solar script

Torah. I might butcher it. I'm going to try to, cause people are going to probably ask about it. Um, was the Bible written by a single author? No. Is there a divinely inspired table of contents? No. No. Can scriptural inerrancy be known without promulgation? Without meaning a church to define it. Okay. Can it be known? Yeah. Can scriptural inerrancy be known without promulgation? Yeah. I have to think more about that. I presume the answer is going to be no. Yeah. And then the fourth one is can

scriptural inerrancy be promulgated without an infallible promulgator? I believe that's the four steps. And I kind of just ran into this. I think it was a debate against Steve Christie. I said, whoa, that almost seems overly simplistic, but like, I understand what he's saying. And it's not in the Bible and I'm looking at history and it's not there. And then there was this rosary piece and I prayed the rosary. How did you start? How did you pray the roaches? I imagine that's a pretty daunting thing for a Protestant because I don't want to

offend God, which is, uh, that's right. I, I, I, I, I got to give credit to my mother-in-law again. She's not Catholic, not Christian, but she knew that we were Christian. And so she was in, um, she was in Turkey and she bought this rosary that we had just hung up, um, somewhere in our home. And I remember walking by it one night. I was feeling particularly kind of anxious and stressed out. And I said, I'm looking at it. I'm like, I'm going to pray you tonight.

I don't know what that means. I don't know what it is. And it's like, I'm just like, yeah. So it's like, God, if I offend you, like forgive me. Cause I don't know. I just don't know. I'm going to try this on. So I put on the hello app. Okay. The course, yeah. Jonathan Rumi, that soothing voice that he's got. It's like velvet. That makes any sense. No, it does. Yeah. Right. And then, so I prayed this rosary and then I put it down and it was just like this wave of just calm and like this, this like love. I didn't even know. Interesting. I didn't know what to do with that. I just knew whatever anxiety and stress I

had just was dealing with and I was fumbling through it. I'm like, I didn't know what to do with that. I just knew whatever anxiety and stress I had just was dealing with and I was fumbling through it I'm like, I didn't know each bead corresponded to a different prayer, right? There was these different mysteries that I've not all memorized like praise God. I'm like, how do people remember this stuff? This is crazy, but I remember praying it for the first time and saying what this is this is real Blessed mother like you're you're on to something here like your intercession. This is and Blessed Mother, like you're onto something here, like you're in intercession. This is... And from there it became a daily habit. And then I just, I woke up one day and I told my wife, I said, I have to be Catholic. How did she feel about you praying the rosary before you told her you're going to... It was odd. Yeah. She had no idea. She was,

I remember grabbing the rosary first time and I'm like, I'm going to learn how to pray the rosary. She's like, well, what do you mean? You're becoming Catholic? I said, I don't know. I don't know, but I know something's happening. I know God's moving me, but I feel the need to pray this. She's like, do you want me to become Catholic? I said, I don't know. I don't know.

And so when I came to this realization, I'm like, I have to become Catholic. I've read the Church Fathers. I've read, you know, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, the first one, and then Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, and Polycarp, and Ambrose, and Augustine, and then you read all you read all these people you're like, oh, I'm just red-pilled on There's no turning back and I remember Will Noland Praise God for such a good friend of mine. Is he that English fella? Yeah, just the juggernaut. He's so good. He's like the most intimidating but loving guy

And this whole time they actually brought me on the podcast in January, even when I was a Protestant, I'm not sure if that was purposeful. Like we're going to get this guy. But I remember for so long, we've been friends for a couple of years. He's always like, Mike, I'm going to convert you. I'm going to convert. It's going to happen. I was like this guy. And so he, he, we were D we were DMing each other on Instagram. Monday. He goes, you understand that? Like now that you kind of under you, you realize the teachings of the church that if you don't become Catholic, you're a heretic. Like you're, you're a chooser. Like, why are you being a chooser?

Like you can't please you were baptized Catholic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Now you're aware that now you really understand. You can't just claim invincible ignorance. Okay. Well you're, I love you, bro. Thanks. Like you're stressing me out right now, but you're not wrong. There's, there's this conviction. So you take all these things all together and plus the Rosary and then my devotion to the faith just came alive. Alcohol was just effortless. I quit it. I didn't need it. I didn't feel like I needed it. It's like the levels of continents, like the Nicomachean ethics, right?

Like you eventually do the good thing and you feel good about doing the good thing. That's how far I got with that. It was like, I, giving this up for God felt so good. I'm doing the right thing. There was something spiritually like vindicating about that. And then the same thing with lust where even if I had the thought, I just wanted to flee from it. Not because, not just because I wanted to honor my wife, but because I wanted to honor God. It was like this inward change that was happening that was reflecting in the

outward. And my wife saw it. She's like, there's something different about you. Like you pray or praying all the time that rosaries on you. I'm into prayer, but this is a bit, yeah, this is a bit much. You're listening to Gregorian chant when you work out. Like it just feels like we're in a cathedral all the time. You want to put up crucifixes in this rosary. You're learning about the saints, but it was a very positive effects in our in our marriage, too It's not to say that I don't still struggle sometimes with anger losing my patience

That's part of the the thorn in my side sometimes too, right? But there was this change and so like again all this apologetic stuff in the world didn't help convince her it was her seeing the fruits of it in my walk and Seeing how much has changed me and how much I came to fall in love and this is the thing right? Because a lot of these you know, a lot of Protestant people are like, well, he's not focusing on Jesus. No, this made me love Jesus more. Meditating on these mysteries are all about Him. But seeing it through Mary's eyes and made me love Him and what He's done so much more. And it feels like, you know, at a certain point I had this Bible, which is a super book, obviously. But that kind of feel like

that's all I had as a Protestant. But now I'm sitting at this table that's endless with all the saints and the fathers and these and there's endless amounts of content to read about scripture, about Jesus and the church who gave you that book. Yeah. And the church that gave you that super book. And it's that's I'm obsessed with it. It's all I think about. It's all I read. I was reading confessions on the, on the way here. I was, you know, I'll be hold your mother by Tim Staples. I'm trying to. Oh, that's a mind boggling.

That is a very underappreciated work of Marian apologetics, I would say. I think it's probably the number one book. Maybe Bram Petra has his books excellent to the Blessed Mother. But that book by Tim Staples, people need to get it. It's excellent men. I'm only like three quarters of the way through through Tim used to be my boss a Catholic answers right dude what a guy yeah me and Pat Coffin used to he was across the road from me and then no kidding Tim was like Tim across there and then Pat we got no

work everybody knows each other that's wild yeah Tim seems like Tim is unreal when I first met Tim I thought there's no way this is real hmm because he was so enthusiastic because he was so enthusiastic. Because he was Protestant before too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a, he was a youth pastor for the assemblies of God. But then he just, and then I was like, oh no, this is just exactly how he is. It's a bit much. It is a bit much, but I'm a bit much.

So like, I love, I love that. But reading that book, like biblical type, dude, I've found myself putting that book down, just like sitting there like galaxy brain like that meme I'm not even joking and then the book comes alive when you start to understand Typology that the new is in the old and the old is is is spoken about in the new and you're like these is this cross Referential this is insane how these themes are it's throughout the book This is crazy. And again many of the interviews with dr. Scott Hahn talking about this type of stuff, too. It's like this is it's undeniable. Undeniable. So I mean, it's only been a few short months and I have to say, like, you know, and I made I think I made a tweet about this a couple a month ago or so. It's very easy to now try to engage in apologetics or like laying the Catholic hammer down on people where where like zeal can become hubris really quickly, really really quickly. Speak more about that, I like that. What do you mean? Well I just think you can be on fire for

God and it's it's so great but you're when if you think everything's a nail and even you're a hammer everything is a nail. Yeah. You know you have people I think that are well-meaning Protestants saying some things that are you know some of it is quite insulting that I feel like we do have an obligation to defend, but sometimes it really just is about just not engaging. And instead, living a fruitful Catholic life, people see it, they take notice. I don't think we should, there's so much of this debate stuff going on online and it's exhausting. I just, and I used to try to engage in it, I'm

like, whoa, wait a second, man, Like the cement is just drying and hardening now. Like who are you to go and now you're this apologist? You know nothing. Sit down. You know, this is why part of it is like this bit of imposter syndrome, even like being on the show. It's like, okay, I'm a new, I'm a new revert. You know, this is, I feel the weight of it. And that's why I always will say, I don't pretend that I know everything or anything, or that I'm an I always will say, I don't pretend that I know everything or anything, or that I'm an arbiter of masculinity, or I'm not even that I'm trying to disparage the red pill guys, because I was one of those guys.

I'm not trying to bash them. A lot of them have points and they're hurt. And that's why I felt my, my pull towards social media was, let me just try to guide you out of it, like with love, because I know you're lonely. I kind of know you want love. You just don't know how to go about expressing it or actualizing it in your life as a man.

Like you can actually take some of these good things and lead that beautiful family that you actually want. Cause I know that's probably what you want. You don't want all this indulgence. Most guys just want to serve a family. And so I don't, I, my biggest thing is I just, and this was at the, the beginning of my social media page or the social media has changed my life.

The fact that I'm even sitting here talking to you and have a business and a podcast and all this stuff on social media is crazy to me. I wake up every day, I'm like, this is insane. I just want to be a compass that points people to Christ in this church. That's it. However, he wants to use me is not for my own glory because I've tried to glorify myself for the majority of my life

and it's gotten me nowhere but broken. Well, I really like what you put up on Instagram. I find it really inspirational. And I wanna go through some of these and have you break them down. Would that be okay? Gonna open them up for us? Yep.

All right, so you've got this one here. You say the number one rule about anti-masculinity. And so we'll go through these rules So you've got this one here. You say the number one rule about anti masculinity. And so we'll go through these rules. You've got several of them. Oh, this one. Love your P let your PP rule you. What does that mean? And why shouldn't you? Yeah. So like the idea, it's like, if you want to become the the the antithesis to true virtue and masculinity is just listen to your PP. When it gives you a little tickle, touch it. Go go on Tinder and swipe right. Go find yourself in a casual sexual encounter. Go do that.

That's that's the antithesis. I'm trying to kind of. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Flip it on its head a little bit. Yeah. And that's the logical conclusion. Because your point is anti-masculinity. So if you want to if you want to be emasculated, these are your steps.

Because it's really interesting because this whole movement is about sort of like how disgusting female nature is, but it's all centered around getting more females. It's really, really strange. Like you love this thing that you hate, but you're at the mercy of like your little head. Like that's what it is. It's so effeminate. It's kind of like the guy. And I've been that guy too.

I've lifted a ton of weight in my life. And it's what starts as like this antidote to effeminacy. It's like a horseshoe. You come to the other side and it just makes you more effeminate. Weighing everything and like your abs have to be chiseled and you're upset that you're not lifting a certain amount of weight. Bro, I struggled with that for years. It makes you effeminate.

Pope Pius XII talked about this too. I think he was addressing, yeah, back in the 50s, I think it was, and he was addressing like a soccer organization. He said, you know, uh, strength is God's gift, uh, to women, children and society, but it has to be well ordered. If it's not well ordered that you and your strength equally will be banished to hell. Wow. Will Nolan did a great article on this and it was so base. It's like, yeah, keep it in its proper place.

So all of these things, like it starts as I want to be more masculine and what, what, what ends up happening when you're not protected, but if you're not orienting yourself toward eternity, it makes you more feminine. All right. Very good. Like it. Rule number two, build the body to the point of a feminine obsession. So you just pointed that out, but more to that. What are you arrogant? Yeah. So that's right. So it's like, okay, well, you know, uh, you are both more marble and sculptor Okay, so build this body but to the point where you can't go in and enjoy anything with your friends or your family or the Girl that you're trying to corp because you're so

Bloody obsessed with how etched your abs are like is that masculine to you? You're shaving your body down I did this. Yeah, just because you look a little leaner when you shave your body down bro oh shave your shave it you're like I just a hairless chicken okay you know what I'm saying but but you look a little leaner okay so why wouldn't you do that right yeah that's what I mean by that okay good all right we come from different worlds my friend yes yes well and where the extra medium shirts. What does that mean? Medium. So like they've got to be hugging the pipes, bro. All righty.

Number three, opt out of marriage entirely. Become the perpetual Peter Pan playboy. Yeah, it ties into it, right? So wear really tight shirts and pants. Listen to your peepee and never get married and just always listen to your peepee until you die What I love why I wanted you on the show is I think you've got a you clearly have a gift at addressing The kind of red bill not just a red pill community But those who have legitimate grievances and are looking for an answer and are beginning to be influenced by the red pill community

Like you are going to be much better at addressing this than I would Could you help me understand why pornography? makes men To use effeminate unmasculine What's the problem with pornography? Would you say well? I think there's also something there's something very not straight about looking at another man's Phallus first of all like that's probably part of the equation We should probably address that like that's a little strange I think it's also strange that like you're touching yourself, too

You know I shared this joke on Shapiro show I forget the name of the comedian have you heard it He says no he says masturbation is double gay Because not only are you giving a man a hand job, but you're receiving a hand job from a man Yeah, yeah, dude. It's true like come on man, and this is the thing also time back to the red pill what it ends up being is the Not straight cruiser lifestyle for straight men if you catch what I mean say that again It's the gay cruiser lifestyle for straight men, okay? All right. Yeah, I

think I get it. That's it. That's what it is. Number four, pad your bank account in pursuit of earthly security. Yeah, so security comes from God and his providence. Not in, because you can accumulate all kinds of wealth. I've been very broke and then not broke and no matter what, I've always felt broke because I put my security in the digits in my bank account and the higher level you go, your threshold for zero just goes higher. That's it.

So it's like, okay, well, don't look to God for your security. Those digits and your Bugatti, whatever color that is, that's your security. Selfish ambition is your God. That's the fifth rule. Well, it's just about buying more stuff, right? Buy more stuff. You love the game, but you love the game because you buy more stuff because there's a big gaping hole within your heart that you want to fill with stuff that is a God shaped hole and not a thing

shaped hole. I love this one. Number six, become spiritual, not religious. It's the cry of the prideful, unrepentant heart. Right? So St. Augustine and confessions is this beautiful quote that's the, the world is drunk off of its own invisible wine of perverted earthbound will just by St. Augustine. Come on, man. Fantastic. So good. We need men to speak like that again. Right. Right. And I actually just read it so you can't say that it wasn't Augustine. That was definitely Augustine. That was definitely good. Yeah. Actually. Yeah, that's good. So there is, it is interesting. I remember I went through that phase

right around my agnostic phase, right? Where I thought, well, I want the benefits of what someone might call religion. You know, I want to be, what's that? Turn around a bit. Face me. Is that what you're telling him? Why don't you just say it? Cause I don't know what you're saying to me. Yes.

Okay. So I move around a lot. Yeah. I move around a lot. I wanted that. I wanted like, I wanted the feeling that, you know, there was meaning in the universe, you know, that I was destined for things. That's why I think a lot of people are attracted to kind of Eastern stuff like Buddhism and

stuff. Sure. Because when you start reading those books, they talk a lot about what you can get from spirituality, but no one tells you what you can do with your PP or not. That's exactly that's the difference. Yeah. That's the big difference there. I'm pretty sure that's what people mean when they say spiritual.

That's exactly what they mean. It's usually all about sex. It's usually all about sex or, or drug use or alcohol use. People don't get pissed off that the church is against insider trading or racism. No, pretty, they're all right. How dare you tell me what to do with my appendage. Yeah. Even in the way that I, uh, have sex with my wife, how dare you? That's exactly what it is. Number seven, become entirely enslaved to your carnal desires. Yeah.

So PP digits on the bank account, you know, buying the Rolexes, just being enslaved to just the, the, the, just capitalism and zeros and hundreds. And I wonder if the Lord will allow you to, I mean, maybe, maybe we don't need to be writing books anymore, but this would be a great book. Eight ways, like eight rules. Oh yeah, that could, could very well be. Yeah. So I like this final one. Never repent, never surrender, never bend the knee.

Instead, accept your place in hell. Well, that's the, that when you think this out to its logical endpoint, that's what happens, right? It's, you know, what, what did St Paul talk about in the epistle of the Romans is like, they were given over to their sin in such a way that became of reprobate mind. I think his father, Rippaker says that sin makes you stupid and it just begets more sin. I was there It's like, okay. Well, this didn't make me feel really good But I'm just gonna do more of it because in the moment I felt really good

Yeah, and so maybe that'll fix all my problems and you just you're it darkens your intellect completely Completely. That's why you even see a lot of these really intelligent people like Nietzsche Super smart way smarter than me, but you read some of of his stuff you're like actually this is kind of dumb. There's no such thing as objective truth. And didn't he dive syphilis, Josiah? Okay. Right. Nietzsche, uh, I need his own philosophy because I can beat him up he has to submit to my moral philosophy. Can he, can people hear you speaking Josiah can they hear all right? It's brilliant Actually remember there was an episode of the Big Bang Theory a show that I'm not recommending where where one of the fellas was trying to justify

Sleeping around on his girlfriend and he quoted Nietzsche anyway Oh, he said well Nietzsche said this and it made him feel good. And he went, well, but he did die of syphilis. Yeah, I know it's funny how that happens. It's you can be so smart, but if you're not you're not submitted to God, you're not following God's law. You are a kind of stupid that only God can save you from. Men, have you checked out Exodus 90 lately? If you've heard of Exodus 90 before, you're probably thinking of cold showers and Lent. But the Exodus 90 app offers so much more.

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We will rediscover the hope that God lays out for us in the coming of His Son into the world. Go to Exodus90.com slash Matt to learn more about Advent on the Exodus 90 app. That's Exodus90.com slash Matt to join men from around the world this Advent starting December 1st. How did your wife, I know you said she was seeing these positive effects in your life, but how did she become open to Catholicism, how did your wife, um, I know you said she was seeing these positive effects in your life, but how did she become open to Catholicism? And how did you respect that journey? Cause like we said earlier, like if you try to kind of force somebody in a position, shame them into a position, make them feel stupid about not accepting a position,

that's a great way for them not to accept that position. You kind of have to give them freedom. Like you had the freedom to explore questions to talk to will That's exactly right. So I mean and there's a lot of guys that are asking me this right now because this is huge Return to the Catholic Church that's happening right now. It's so crazy I'll maybe plug this at the end, but I have this group that I run. It's got the Catholic masculinity project It's a good people find it. So it's on school so you can find it on all my social media platforms It's my link in my bio to the pr there's a fun, people find it. So it's on school. So you can find it on all my social media platforms. It's my link in my bio. So there's a, there's a premium version. There's a free version.

The free version has grown to over 600 members in two and a half weeks, 600 fellows. Yeah, that's fantastic. 600 plus guys. It's a place where men can grow in faith fellowship and fortitude. And the whole reason for this, what's the URL? Do you know it? I just want people to make sure they've, yeah. So you remember to put this in the show notes so people can click it and join it? So you just look up the Catholic masculinity project, even on Google or the community school. So school with a K S K double O L. But again, you can find that on my Instagram and on my,

my Twitter as well, even on my website. And so I see, yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So over 600 members as of the... 639, good for you. That's right. And so it's a place where we kind of, we saw this, I guess, kind of need where the Protestants do this really well, the men's groups and the Bible studies and the fellowship, they do that so well. Why don't Catholics do that that well? Not to hijack this conversation, I talk about this, I just think it's important, not for my group, but so other people at least can think about these things. Men's groups in the Catholic world have kind of been reduced down to this, like pancake breakfast. That's me on Saturday with the boomers,

not to disparage the boomers, but it's not particularly edifying for this next generation of the laity. Right? So it's like, well, let's selfishly create a place where we can, you know, commune with these guys. We can all grow together and man, it's crazy. It's 600 plus members. We're all sharing prayers. We do bi-weekly free men's group meetings together. And then we have the inner circle group, which is the pay group, where we meeting weekly. It's more direct access to me and my partner.

We have core small jewels on marital leadership, overcoming lust and pornography, growing in the faith, fitness and nutrition, et cetera. We kind of wanted to create this to be a place where it's the one stop shop for the Catholic man to come and grow in virtue. Not because we're teaching them about the faith, we're not, but fellowship, brotherhood, so important. Fortitude is so important.

I can't remember who said it, but it was fortitude is like the watchtower or the barrier that protects the other virtues. Cause how else can you be properly faithful without fortitude? So it's crazy to see that free group grow and then the premium group grow like crazy. And again, I say this to every, every, every person. Not as just as a plug, don't even have to join the premium group. Join the free group. There's so much edifying stuff going on there as well.

And we're really blessed to have guys like, you know Tim Gordon Hopefully maybe yourself speak in the inner circle really bless these guys with your presence because I think man judging by I mean how quickly this Is grown guys are needing this they're pining for it So I completely actually got off track to what you originally asked me I think you asked me about my wife and guiding her to the faith. Yeah, and somehow we ended up here I don't know that I like it. Yeah, that's fine. Glad you're doing it. Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you It's it's but you're right. You know, it's funny. I actually I know it's probably helpful for people who have more of a combative temperament to be like told to hurry up and convert your heretic like right. Like I get it. But I just I just really love Protestants.

I when I say love, I mean, have great affection for because I see the way they some of them, right? The way they walk with the Lord It's imperfect. I want them to become Catholic. Don't get me wrong, but the way they walk with the Lord I think Carly there's a lot we can learn from him. I Hundred percent agree me and we'll talk about this all the time He's like you and I are not like all there in the head that we respond to this Him and I are the same. He's dead lifted over 700 pounds. I've dead lifted over 800 pounds. We're not that anyone's competing No, no, no. Hey, I got it. That's the one thing I have on that guy

He's got everything else on me and that was funny because I wasn't even trying to be that guy But there you go wasn't trying to be self-aggrandizing No, no, no way, but that's the one thing that we talk about is like we're not the norm in the sense that like I respond Really well to that. Yeah, he says like don't be like that with other people even him and I know that too They're not like us. They're not like us They're not like us and not a kind of a superior like being shamed. We're kind of screwed up the Protestant Yeah, right. So the Protestants actually do that really well. There's more welcoming. It's more loving And that's exactly what we wanted to do with this group too

Because there are men's groups that are kind of like, you know It's kind of like the the red pill will kind of shame a guy into submission. There's a place for heat Yeah, when a guy just needs to be called out for submission. There's a place for heat. Yeah. When a guy just needs to be called out for sure. That's love though. Right. It's like you're that's actually like, you know, willing the good of the other. Right. You're like grabbing them by the scruff of the shirt. It's done in a certain way. Isn't it? Like the two fellas who told you to save sex or to not engage in sex while your wife and you didn't have a regularized marriage, they didn't do it publicly on YouTube. They didn't do it to your friends.

They didn't speak behind your back. They spoke to you with tough love. It was love though. That it was absolutely was love. It wasn't just like getting off on bashing a guy and kicking him while he's down. That's completely different. And then there's a place obviously for light

when a guy's like really feeling, you know. Defeated. Defeated. You need to like shoulder the burden with that guy and walk the path forward That's that's exactly why we created a space like that It's like mostly love but then you get the times where these guys need some heat, you know, and heat is good My work is being able to shed more light instead of heat because I'm like a blue-collar guy at heart

We're like I like those rough conversations Yeah, but not everybody's gonna respond to that and my wife certainly didn't circ to this, you suck! Yeah, you suck! How do you not understand this? Let me tell you about the communion of saints and church fathers, right? Yeah, she was just crying. It was really embarrassing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was, for me, because I was failing as a leader so horribly. And I don't even pretend to say that I even do it perfectly now. I just do it, I would say I do it better now for sure. It was a combination of all those things, right? So it was the fruit that she saw in me, like how I was changing me, my devotion, my love for Christ was coming alive. And it was also like, okay, little things. I'm gonna take her to a parish that she really feels welcomed at. Like I want to immediately go to the traditional Latin Mass.

I said, I'm gonna save this. She'll come with me because she's beautiful and she'll come and do, she'll go where I go. She said that to me. It's like, praise God for such a woman. I'll go where you go. Okay, great. But I want her to come to this with joy and with love. So it's, this is a great test of my leadership, right? So let's go to this, maybe slightly boomer parish, but it's still going to save my soul. Novus order or TLM, maybe one's more reverent. That's okay. We can argue about that. They're both still going to save your soul. Jesus is there, He's present in the

Eucharist. I'm gonna take her there, she feels welcomed into the community, and I'm just gonna let the Holy Spirit do the rest. When she has questions, I'll address them to the best of my ability. Now sometimes there are times where I kind of lose my patience or I get impatient or I've been impatient, but a combination of that and also sending her content that I really think speaks to her. This is where Keith Nestor and Dr. Scott Hahn and a lot of that and it also sending her content that I really think speaks to her. This is where Keith Nestor and Dr Scott Hahn and a lot of the stuff that you've done have really helped because she sees like this love and in a way that not that these guys are speaking like lay people, they're incredibly intelligent, but it's kind of relatable because

it hits a woman in the heart. It's not like this staunch intellectualism because it's off putting it's an intimate and it's intimidating. And so and then seeing our daughters get baptized and then seeing the change in our marriage when I decided to be celibate. It's like I love you so much that I want to feel about that. I mean when you presumably you came to her and said we need to abstain. Yeah. Well it was two things.

She's like I love this. It's as amazing, but like, don't we want to have more children? I said, but don't you trust God? She's like, yeah, you're right. Pretty short conversation. She's like, yeah, you're right. Like, yeah, I know this is what I needed to tell you. It's like, you know, we're not, you know, we're both in our thirties and she's like, you know, I'm not getting any younger. I'm like, I know, but God gave Sarah a baby, super old. Hopefully you won't be 99 or a hundred years old, hopefully. But if we trust God's providence, either we stay with these two beautiful angels,

that's all we have, but our hearts are full. Our homes are full. Great. Or we can continue to multiply, but I'd rather do it knowing we honored him first and downstream of that. I'm honoring and I'm loving you, my bride. I so much want to take your clothes off and ravage you right now, but I'm choosing not to. And there's something so sanctifying about that. Jason Everett makes the connection to alcoholism. He says the man who can't say no to his next drink isn't free. He's a slave.

That's right. Same thing's true with sex. It's so true. It's so true and it's a lot of people don't I think realize or Maybe understand how to show and express love outside of intimacy and sometimes that's that can be a challenge Yes, sometimes maybe people that's the bandage, right? Like they have really good sex but outside of that there's really not much else going on How did you kind of foster intimacy outside of the bedroom during those seven weeks? There was just more I'm not a very like physically affectionate person even like verbally like I'm very verbose but sometimes I I forget that

My wife's a woman that like needs to be doted on and told these nice sweet nothings. My wife is not that way at all You know it sucks because I'm great at Affirmations, I'm really good What is that choleric? It's very choleric. Oh you are too. Yeah, but I remember I miss my wife might come in the room and like without trying to manipulate Her without trying to come off as whatever. I'm like, oh my gosh, you look beautiful. Yeah. Could you please fix the thing? Yeah. So practical. So loved. Yeah. Fix that shoe rack. But that's part of like a sanctifying process for you. Cause you just want to be over the top and you're like, well, I got to meet her where she's at. This

is maybe not the way that she best receives love. Like how does your wife receive love? My wife just happens to be that person that likes those sweet nothings and the physical affection and I'm not particularly good at. And I think God does that on purpose. Yeah. You know, cause it's easy for me to just forget about that. Or to even, not even necessarily go on dates, but just to kind of just take the time

to just sit down without our phones and just talk, pray together, pray before meals, you know, random spurts of affection, writing her little sweet nothing notes that she absolutely loves, getting her flowers randomly. And things that are, I wouldn't really typically think about, because I'm like, she's my wife and she loves me and I love her and everything's fine, right? It's like, no, but like when's the last time I told her like, you're beautiful.

It goes a long way. It goes a long way. And I've seen that transform her too. It just goes a long way. It goes a long way. And I've seen that transform her too. It just lights her right up, those little sweet nothings. Hard for me to say, not because I don't think that they're true. Just because- It just doesn't come naturally.

It just doesn't come naturally. It doesn't. But I gotta work on that. That's part of the, marriage is slow martyrdom. Right? It's like this slow, virtuous death in a beautiful way. Right? Cause like, it's so easy for us to romanticize a Catholic. You see all in a beautiful way, right? Cause like it's so easy for us to romanticize a Catholic. It's like, you saw the crusader memes, right? Like,

I just want to call from the Pope, bro. Come on, let's overtake Jerusalem. Let's take back Constantinople. Let's do it. It's easy to romanticize. I got some, Hey, the Pope calls me to do that. I'm going. Yeah. But if God says, can you give up sex for seven weeks, right? Or can you love your wife until you guys pass away? Can you do that? Why can't we romanticize that because I would say dying in battle as a crusader is easier than doing that and That's flipped. I don't know where God it's such a simple realization, right? It's kind of a meathead realization

It's like a meathead. It's like my meathead theology. It's like, that's way harder. Do you know who Jason Everett is? Of course I've listened to the podcast. He's so terrific. He's great. He has this line, he says, this fella comes up to him and he's sleeping with his girlfriend. He tells Jason, I'd take a bullet for her. He's like, well unless you're like girlfriends in organized crime, that's very unlikely. Yeah. But could you like save sex or marriage? No, I couldn't do that. Right. Yeah. Can you like, yeah, can you like live and love her properly? You know, not to sound cheesy and like, you know, overly, I am Italian, so I didn't mean it.

Kind of, it's just what we do on indirectly is just sound like cheese balls. But I don't mean that in a cheese ball way. I mean, then like a sincerely, like sincerely, can you love her? Well it's the harder option. I mean, how easy is it to get excited to marry a beautiful woman, marry her, get fed up with your own stuff and her stuff, and to abandon her for somebody else, and then repeat that process? That's very easy to do.

It's very easy to do. That's the point. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it actually takes a lot of strength to work through your own stuff and to love her in spite of her own flaws and your own, and wake up every day and try to love her, try to die for her. It's bloody difficult. I've been married 18 years. Praise God. It's wonderful.

I can imagine. And I can honestly say, I know this sounds like something people say to whatever, but I actually think it's way better than it used to be. But I actually think it's way better than it used to be. I have this analogy. I've been using lately I've been saying how marriage is sort of like Birkenstock's and in that it molds to our Dysfunction. Mm-hmm. You talk to a chiropractor and they say Birks aren't necessarily good for you If you're walking funny, then the have you heard me use this analogy? I think it's a good one I probably have what's coming to mind is that I Wouldn't use that equivalence because Birkenstocks are so ugly.

I said to somebody, come on. I said to somebody, I said marriage is like Birkenstocks, like only 40 year old lesbians wear them. I'm like shut up man. I love them. My wife loves them. It's an argument we get into all the time. No, I love Birks.

If that's wrong, I don't want to be right. She's laughing right now when she watches it. She's gonna be dying laughing. It's gonna be so good But my point is I kind of grew up only being able to I never had really good men Male friends until after my conversion and so I feel like I wasn't very Masculine in many ways when we got married my wife grew up with certain dysfunctions as well You get married and then you just sort of make it work. Mmm But just because something's working doesn't mean serious healing needs to take

place and realignment, which often causes a lot of pain. That totally does that. That totally does. And I think a lot of men in a lot of Catholic men dealt with that because feminism is very kind of loud, but quiet. What does that mean? Meaning like, so you don't realize how brainwashed you are by it. Yeah.

Because it's just been kind of like this slow sort of propaganda, I can't even know the word. Yeah, you've been propagandized. Yeah. Right, and you've been indoctrinated. Yeah. For example, for me, and I'm saying this for me too, at the beginning of my marriage,

it's like me and my wife are splitting things 50-50. But I to be like a leader of a home like I'm gonna split things 50-50 I remember her sitting me down and Saying you're paying for the mortgage and you're paying for them because you make way more money than me and this is not fair Like that's your job I remember my brother-in-law calling me and said that you know in our culture the man pays for everything, right? Dude, and I was like I'm gonna be this picture And this is what I'm saying. It's so covert. Yeah. This 50 50 egalitarian, which, which effectively I think ruins men, ruins

women, ruins marriages. I know you've thought about feminism a lot more than me. So here's something I've been thinking about lately and I'd love you to kind of, I don't know, clarify it or sure, or offer something. And this has been something of a kind of intellectual conversion for me. I spoke to a Sheila could carry grass and wrote a book called The End of what's it called? The end of woman. How smashing the patriarchy has destroyed us.

And I was thinking about this and I thought, OK, women are weaker. If they weren't, feminism wouldn't exist. It's almost like, but the atheist looks at the woman who is weaker and tries to make up for her deficiency by making her manlike. The Christian, I think, ought to see the woman by weaker. That doesn't mean a deficiency. This vulnerability is part of her beauty and genius. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So it's actually not something that needs to be rectified. It's something that needs to be

understood and nurtured and loved and protected. Yeah. I mean, it's word something like that. Yeah. And this is the problem. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. I'm trying to like parse that out in my. Yeah. I didn't say it very clearly, but it's just been, yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot lately. We get lied to. It's sort of like how men get lied to about how, you know, porn is very masculine. That's kind of a lie I remember being told as a kid. And then a woman gets lied to, like that she's a slave if she serves her husband, but liberated

if she serves her employer, you know? We just get lied to. You totally get lied to. And then to break out of that lie, it's like you become a traitor to the typical way of thinking, common way of thinking, common way of thinking. Yeah, for sure. And I think this is the problem with the bracketing of Ephesians 5 in the mass. It's like, yo, the apostles talked about this. This was in the Bible. Patriarchy is bimodal. There's the clerical patriarchy and the household patriarchy,

right? We're different. That's beautiful. We're equal in dignity. There's a stronger sex, there's a weaker sex, and we have uniquely different roles. This is where mutual submission falls flat, because mutual submission implies that we're the same, that the two parties are alike. We're alike in the sense that we're both God's creation, but we're not the same. And so anything with, I think this is Vodi Balkham said this, he's a Protestant pastor, anything with two heads is a monster. And I just read this in a book, the case for patriarchy by Tim Gordon, by the way. And I think it was, it was, we're going to be quoting Aquinas and actually seeing it.

This is Aquinas. This is the joke. I'm not an expert on Aquinas. And he said, he was talking about Sirach, the book of Sirach. And he was saying that the philosopher says that the woman's Dominion is the death of a family like a tyrant of a Commonwealth Okay, I Believe that's a quote from Syrac and Thomas is quoting Syrac sure. Yeah, so it's a quote of a quote and I He's kind of looking at you look at you, please please look at not trying to fact-check you he's gonna look at you look at please please look at not trying to fact-check you he's just trying to find

the source for that's fine no yeah it's a woman's dominion is the death of a family like a tyrant of a Commonwealth or as a tyrant of a Commonwealth I don't know what translation that is of Sirach but it was quoting Sirach nevertheless and so it's like why are we treating each other like we're the same? I think this has been the greatest

Psyop that we've failed. It's cause like we can't even say that first wave feminism was good. The only innocuous piece of feminism that was like, maybe there's not so this wasn't objectively an okay thing is the voting. But I heard even you wrestling with that recently. Were you not? I don't know. I don't know if anyone should be voting but Right. No, I don't know. I mean you could be I could be open I could be persuaded that a Family should vote right not not two people and that the man's being the head of the family should vote Right for the family. So there you go, but for sure and I think we agree on that. Yeah, I don't know I haven't thought it through. I'm just that's that seems reasonable to me

It does seem reasonable to me as well And so that was the only maybe relatively innocuous part and one we could argue about that point, but everything else is just a lie. I mean, the Seneca false confessions first wave feminism talking about cutting off the head of the family. Yeah, no, it's wicked. It's wicked root and branch. It's completely wicked. And this is why we cannot speak about the red people without talking about feminism. That's right. You know, and this is why I don't want to bash the feminists that have been indoctrinated

because a lot of them, like they come out of it in their 30s and 40s. That's heartbreaking to see. It's the same reason you have sympathy for Red Pill men. That's exactly why. Women ought to have sympathy for those who've been indoctrinated by feminism and haven't come out of it yet. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be corrected. They should be corrected.

And I think there's a place for the heavy-handed correction and there's a place for the gentle correction. This is why we need women to do this. You said earlier that women listen to women. Yes. We need women to speak in a way that women will hear because you can speak in a way that people will just think you're a jerk and they won't listen to you. Sometimes that's called for. Sometimes people respond to that. Even women will respond to that well. But yeah, we do need more women, I think, to call out this stuff. Yeah, and I think like the perfection of femininity, like what a woman is, I think, I'm just exploring the sentence out loud. I said this during the filming of a documentary somewhat recently was, was that exists in a woman's agency and saying yes to God through her husband and just being obedient and submissive.

But let me also say the flip side too. Go for it. Maybe we shouldn't also have to always bring in the caveat, but I think it's important, part of the conversation. Will Nolan also said two weeks ago on a podcast, there's invisible Lat syndrome patriarchy too. Explain that to me. So when a guy goes into the gym and he gets all puffed up, he walks around like he can't, he's got to walk sideways through doors and he's

walking around posturing. There's that kind of patriarchy too, where it's like, I'm going to decide what my wife eats, everything that she wears, all of these things where it's just... Do people actually say that? There are, there are people... I'm sure there are. I mean, there's a lot of people on the internet saying crazy things. 100%. But I think in the Catholic world the majority of the marriages are are feminist But there's gonna be a percentage or that there is these men that are Tyrants that just take this To the absolute extreme because they're insecure

And they don't actually know how to wield that authority or yield that authority properly Right where it was a really interesting discussion with all the guys who were saying that some of the greatest Kings, and this is something that I'm not equating myself to a King, but something I've done with my, with my wife as well as they would seek the counsel of their wives because they're pure of heart and they're prudent. And who else would have a more of a vested interest in the household? It's the wife, some of these biggest decisions that I make,

most decisions that I make, I kind of, I know I have the final say, but I want to, uh, I want to consult my wife and I want to see what she has to say. Maybe she'll sway me because it's a good idea and maybe we disagree, but I make the decision anyways, but I still consult her. And the same thing with, yeah, with making a choice on something in the home. I know I could just slam the hammer down, but I think it's a good idea and I love including her in the decision. I think that's proper leadership and not just saying like, you're just made for these three duties around the home and that's all you're going to do. I'm not going to let you leave the house,

I'm not going to let you do anything else. That's tyrannical. I think that's a smaller percentage. Mason- Yeah, I'm going back a little bit to what you said earlier, because it seems to me what you're seeing is, okay, there's this giant threat of feminism, and people have tried to attack it in a nuanced way for so long that it loses in the stream of words what it is you're trying to say. So you want to say things directly. So I sense like there's a little kind of hesitation to nuance it because maybe to nuance it what?

It because I just think it's been nuanced to death. Yeah, I think we should be speaking in more plain language. Yeah. But the fact is there are women who are listening to this podcast right now who when they hear wives be submissive to your husbands, they do have the hair on the back of their neck stand up because they do hear that as tyrannical. So I do think in order for them to hear what it is you're trying to say, I do think it is important that you say what you're not meaning, or you say what you don't mean. Well, I think you have to paint the whole picture. As much as it's a smaller percentage, I truly believe of Catholic marriages, I think it's a smaller percentage. It's still a percentage.

And I also condemn that. I don't live that out. There's been times where I've overcorrected and I'm like, that just actually just doesn't feel right. And I don't want somebody to treat my daughters that way either. But let's not make this make no mistake on the flip side too. The submissive submissiveness piece too is like a woman says, well, if he's worthy of submission, I'll submit. Well, it's like now he's not living according to God's standards, he's living according to yours. And so like the gas and brake pedal of feminism is toxic masculinity, that's the brake,

or man up, that's the gas pedal. Ooh, that's good. And so now they've effectively controlled it all under this guise of like, make yourself worthy. You married him. You deemed him worthy upon marriage. Respect him. Honor him. Be obedient. Submit to him. In all things that glory God. It's not even including things that are of grave matter. We're not saying that. If he tells you not to go to Mass, go

to Mass. I think we live in a world that I think we do need to spell it out to a degree because I also think guys need to be told what to do. I'm a coach in the online space. I coach Christian and Catholic guys. What to me is common sense, not that I'm any smarter, but just because I made a lot of mistakes, is not common sense to a lot of guys. So they really need to be told like, just don't be a dick, bro. There's a time and place to throw the hammer down But this is where experience is king where you can't really teach that either, right? But let's also have that other conversation. It's like I

Ripper girl was probably right or underestimating when he said that over 80% of even traditional Catholics are feminist marriages and I think it's a failure of not just in the household patriarchy with men But it's also in the clerical patriarchy with men, but it's also in the clerical patriarchy with this bracketing of Ephesians five and this not calling women out on their sin too, because they sin too. Yeah. They're not these little angels that don't fart. Yeah. They poop as well. Come on. I was at mass the other day. This, forgive me if people are watching this awful mass. It looked like the liturgy was designed by grandmas or gay men. The whole thing was soft. Soft green carpet, the kind of church where they would have heated holy water font.

Oh, were they guitars? They were guitars. Oh, yeah, of course, there's guitars. Yeah. And it's just the whole, I don't know how any red-blooded man could actually respect it, and I don't think they do. No. It's like going to grandma's house. Like you go to grandma's house because you actually want comfort. You want to eat a little candies and a soup. But then if the priest is there and he's going to speak something hard, that's totally out of place. Like you don't go to grandma's house to have someone yell at you about something or to correct you on something.

So they just don't correct you on stuff Yeah, and not to get into a rant of like the whole post conciliar church, but here we go, right? It's There's something about that that's definitely caused this watering down of the mass for sure again, I still think it's all licit I think it's also I think there's just a kind of an indifference in a lot of priests I try to be very careful with my language because I'm also not like a huge fan of Pope Francis and what I'll always say is we don't have to be a fan of him, we just have to pray for him. And so like those things can exist together, you know what I'm saying? And I just think it's again, it's the Homer Simpson syndrome but now in the clergy.

Yeah, I would say though I feel more, I feel quite hopeful. I agree with you that there's a lot of priests who seem like they've given up on their vocation. Call me Jeff. You're like, okay, father, Jeff, I don't understand why you would do that. I get that. That's, that's true. But I'm also seeing a lot of young men joining seminary or who have just been ordained or have been ordained for 10, 15 years and they really fight in the good fight. They really, they are really good men who are priests right now. I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. There's a big revival happening in the church. You can see it. There's a shift. I think there's more of this conversation about feminism. There's more of this anti-red pill. And this is the whole thing too. We just, we need to come together and just point more people to God, get these guys out of this

red pill stuff, get these women out of this feminist stuff, because we're not supposed to be at odds with each other. And I do think the way to be most convincing about that is to tell them they've been lied to and to show them how that lie is making them unhappy. Just like someone could have come into your life and went, this red pill thing, I get what you're reacting to and I get why you think it'll make you happy. Here's why it's a lie. This exact same thing can be said to the woman who's bought into the feminist thing.

Yeah. Although the difference is a lot of women. May kind of subscribe to feminism without knowing that that's what they're doing, whereas a lot of men kind of gladly declare that they're red pill men. Yeah, as well. But I think so. Yeah, I think so, too. I think so, too. But I also think ultimately it's on the man. I think men can lead women out of feminism. They we absolutely can I think obviously it's very important for women to call each other out As well. It's like hey

we need to get our act together because part of the reason our Households are in disarray is because we're putting our careers over our families, which there's a problem there We have a problem with our husband saying no to us, you know, we We effectively just want to be men, but with none of the responsibilities that come with being a man, it's different. It's very dysphoric. It's very confusing because it's like you're pitting a woman against her own nature. Cause I think naturally a woman kind of loves children. Yeah.

Yeah. Wants to be nurturing. Wants to be at home. If you're a woman who says, well, I'm just not naturally nurturing, figure it out and you, figure it out. And you will. Figure it out. This is your problem and you need to be nurturing. That's right.

It's like if a man says, well, I don't really, you know, I don't really get confrontation. I don't really feel like protecting my family. Exactly. Do it awkwardly at first, but figure it out. It's just the same thing that I'm living with my wife. Like I'm not naturally very like affectionate and I'm just gonna stay with, no with no no I have to figure it out

That's part of the song and dance and you're allowed to do it awkwardly. That's okay exactly start. Yeah, yeah totally But there's not enough of that that conversation sometimes he walks in it's okay. That's okay you can walk and he joined the conversation too, but Essentially we just need to stop being at odds with one another I think essentially we just need to stop being at odds with one another. I think men can ultimately lead women out of feminism, but they also have to be open to being led out of that and being told that like, Hey, you were, you were like really, you're indoctrinated. And here's why. Cause there's a place again for the heavy, heavy handed conversation with women

too. Um, do I think that needs to be the majority of the time? I don't think you're going to win many people that way, but I also don't think we're going to do anything by being lukewarm about it either. Like this is evil. This is the prime evil. You know, maybe not prime evil. There's many evils in the world, but this is a manifestation of hell on earth because it's pitted us against one another. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can

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at mattfradd.locals.com. When you become an annual subscriber, we will send you a free pints with Aquinas Bierstein. You will get these episodes one week before they go on YouTube. And what else do they get? I know you get to ask our guests questions. Oh, yeah. Well, this is a new thing, by the way. We're doing. Yeah, we haven't done this. Thank you. Thank you, Josiah.

By the way, we should point out Josiah that we used to call you Thursday. Yeah. Now he goes by Josiah because he's not ashamed of me as he used to be. So people are like, why did he just, did he just drop his name? I did it on purpose. Josiah wants to be known by Josiah. But yeah, that's something we're starting now where the episodes are going to come out a week early on locals before YouTube. So we really appreciate it.

Helps us. thanks a lot. All right, let's see. Marty asks, have you had any chance to see or even help any other red pillars see the light since your conversion? There have been many men that have come to me in private saying I'm totally brainwashed by this stuff and I need help out. How do

I do it? So maybe not necessarily notable viral figures, let's say. Not yet. I mean, praise God, God willing if he so chooses me to do that. But there have been many men. That's kind of how I started in the coaching space, if you will, the mentorship space, if you will, is because of this reason. There's a lot of guys coming out of it because they understand just like many women coming out of feminism, they've been fed a lie. Katie says, do you think the Red Pill Movement began

with good intentions before veering off course into a sort of cult-like extremism? Or do you believe even the origins were problematic? Well, I think the origins were problematic because I think anything that's attached to the pick-up artist movement is sort of like at its core degenerate, but there's sort of a weird tension there because some of the things that they say

are objectively true. Like the diagnosis a lot of times are true, it's the prescriptions that just completely fall off a cliff, the solutions. So man, that's actually a really good question. I wanna say yes, it's been degenerate from the start, they just happen to get some things right. Father Bolts asks, once the tipping point occurs, do you think that Islam will be the main refuge of

men who have finally had enough of feminism and the good boy routine? If Catholic, if Christian men in general, all parts of Christian them, even our Protestant brothers or brothers in general, if we continue to pussyfoot around our faith and be lukewarm and effeminate about our faith, this will happen. We have to rise up and it's not about a violent altercation, but it's about reclaiming the truth and planting our flag in the ground and being men about our faith. Bringing that kind of crusade energy into the modern world. What is it about Islam, even from a sort of surface level that appeals to men? Because I get how it appeals to men. Because it seems very masculine that the rules are very hard, there's these hard lines, like there's a clear difference between man and

woman and their respective roles and they're unwavering. They're tyrannical about the way that those rules are enforced. So from the outside, looks very masculine because it's very ordered until you get into the theology and then yeah things unravel. Julia says what is the best and worst part of the Red Pill movement? I think the best part is making men understand that they they're not stupid for realizing or coming to the realization that they've been attacked since their birth. I don't mean to sound this in like a victimized way, but men and media are depicted as bumbling fools. All masculinity is toxic. Anytime you

reclaim any kind of strength or kind of like squash down like a little ant, there's this loneliness. So I think part of it is like validating your feelings and saying like, man, like you have every right to feel this because this is exactly what's happening and Then but again, it's the solutions to send things that again lead a man to the pits of hell Anthony says What's the biggest problem in our culture? And why is it feminism? Anthony of course see my guy. You know this is yeah, of course. I do. I love you. I love you Anthony Okay, that's such a good question. I figured he'd asked ask that

Did you have an answer to it? He answered it. He also asks, how do we get back to true masculinity and femininity within the church and broader culture? I got a point I want to make here, and that is that it seems like we've left the path of reason and we need to give people grace as they find their way back to it. So I don't find it terribly interesting when women do the trad wife YouTube videos where they pretend, you know, they're just walking out onto the porch in the morning and drinking their coffee and serving their husbands all day.

Right. But I also don't want to slam them because we've been raised without role models and we're trying to get back to something. What makes you think that they're pretending though? Okay, yeah, fair enough. Maybe they're not pretending, but it would seem to me that the quality of some of these videos take a bit of a time. It looks it maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, it looks like that. Like I don't think my wife has ever thought about filming herself making cereal or filming herself making dresses for the children. The way it's done, it feels like it's more to appeal to men to tell them what great wives they are.

But maybe I'm wrong. My point is simply that we shouldn't actually shit on these women. My point isn't that we should, but just that we don't have good role models as men and women. We've been born into the aftermath of the sexual revolution and we need to give people grace as we try to figure out what masculinity and femininity look like again. Because quite honestly, our culture, if that's what we can call this thing, doesn't know what men and women are, what sex is, what marriage is. So bloody hell. Yeah, it's a mess. It's a total mess.

So yeah, I'm not gonna disparage these tradwives either. I personally think a lot of them, it's a LARP as well, but if you're looking at the overall social media landscape, I'd rather take that than the OnlyFans model, you know, plaster yourself everywhere. So I'm not sure what the answer is besides returning to the church, um,

seeking very wise counsel within the church and doing your best to, uh, raise a virtuous and God loving family in your respective roles as patriarch and wife and mother and homemaker. Cause when those, when those things are in harmony, not that there's sometimes not, this is something that Tim said that was really, really good. Tim Gordon, not everything's a symptomology guys. So like when you're in a traditional marriage, I'm in a traditional marriage, there's going to be some things that happen. Like she's not always going to perfectly follow my authority and I'm not always going to perfectly wield that authority

either. But it's not a symptom that she doesn't respect me or she's not obedient to me, or it's not a symptom that I'm a tyrant. We're just flawed human beings trying to figure this thing out. And I just think that I think the object, the goal should be to get it right most of the time. Cause the rest of it, that's where grace comes in. Otherwise we wouldn't have to repent and go to confession and try to just, okay, I'm going to pick myself up and try to do this again. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Anonymous asks, what are some practical tips on breaking free from pornography? Start with a 33 day consecration to St. Joseph. Fast for the first 24 hours. A lot of guys really fail on the weekends. There's no structure on the weekends. Get yourself out into nature. Go on rosary walks. Try to do that once a day.

Where you go inside, no phone, nothing, no technology, you're just praying out in public, and on the weekends get out of the home. It's idle hands of the devil's playground, that's where men slip. And also understand that you need to assess your diet as well, because if you're eating like crap, and you're playing with your dopamine, your brain much like porn does the same thing. So if you can eat, there's something called the food hyper palatability reward hypothesis. Please tell me what that is. So essentially I'll put it to you this way. If you eat a lot of hyper palatable foods all the time, that's all your body like craves and your hunger. There's

this really weird inflation of this. It's not actual real hunger. It's just your body just wants more of that hyper palatable food. Me, I eat 90% of the time the same kind of okay stuff where I finish it, I look forward to it, I'm like, I don't want to eat another pound of potatoes and whatever. It's good enough. And so if you can get to a place where you're eating good food most of the time, you'll find that craving for that pornography is just a wanting for more dopamine. And things kind of like stabilize over time. Are you lifting weights as well? Try to find a place to put that energy. When you go and this sounds really meatheady, but it's very true. I've experienced myself and

so many guys that have helped, but if you go from deadlifting 200 pounds to deadlifting 300 pounds, you're a different guy. If you go to from deadlifting 200 pounds to 400 pounds, you're a different guy. Unless you take it to an extreme, it becomes obviously effeminate. There's an element of redemptive suffering there. Because I think all men have this desire to grip the steel and go to war. We live in a very soft society, right? We need to replicate that with things like the gym.

Do that as well. Most of the time these guys have gaping holes in their lifestyle that they're not addressing, and they're trying to white-knuckle it through. Also seek fellowship in community. You need to put up as many barriers, but these are active measures, right? As many barriers between you and falling as possible.

You can't just expect to download the Covenant Eyes app and it's like, the app is gonna do the work for me. The work is inside of you. So that's what I would start. That is excellent. Thank you very much for that Um, I shouldn't do we actually answer anthony's question because I went off on a tangent there How do we get back to true masculinity and femininity within the church and broader culture? Yeah, I was I think I was saying was we need to respect and honor our roles individually as men, as patriarchs, and then women as the wife, mothers and homemakers and understand that

everything's a symptomology to have grace from one another, but to really, even if it's just, it's how I get atheist. It's like, just pretend you believe in God for a little bit, bro. And eventually like that door is going to be flung wide open and you're going to be a full fledged believer. Put on those hats. That's Pascal. You know that? Yeah, it's Pascal. It's very Pascalian. It's almost how I came to Catholicism. I said, I'm just gonna like... Use holy water. Genuflex. Do the things Catholic people do. You come to it. You come to a venture, you're like, oh, okay, unless you're so prideful. But

I don't think you would even get to that point of pretending if you were super prideful. Try that out. It's going to feel kind of weird and alien, but I think that's part of how we get back. If there's a fella listening to this right now and he's like alright I do want to be a better man I can tell that I'm too nice or I'm you know just trying to appease people. How does one grow in masculinity without immediately becoming an insecure tyrant like we've talked about. immediately becoming an insecure tyrant, like we've talked about. Because if I'm honest with you, this is one of my concerns, right? Not that I disagree with anything you've said, but there's a fear in me that you take an insecure young man who's never led anything in his life and he just gets married and you tell him and he listens, he hears about the marital debt and why his wife should be submissive to him. And my fear is that he could co-opt that language to dominate his wife and to shame her when

she doesn't listen to him because he's not actually secure in his masculinity. And I know that, what's that thing we talked about Josiahiah, that exception make bad law? Oh yeah. Yeah. I get that. I get that exception makes bad law. But still, I think it's something worth addressing. I think a big part of this, first and foremost, is you've got to be in a community of other men that are married.

Yeah. I think that's really important. That's right. I think when you isolate yourself and you become the only man you listen to, that's really bad. Really bad. I don't know. I mean, I probably would have come to the celibacy thing if it wasn't for Tim or Chris or maybe I wouldn't have. But the fact that I had those men to sharpen against or to call me out, that was really important. So this is why fellowship is so important. It's like a guy needs to be in a group of men that are going to say like dude Like you're being a dick to your wife, bro

Stop that the difficult with difficulty with this too Is that there's an element of overcoming nice guy syndrome and indecisiveness and this stuff that requires some not sloppy practice But you kind of have to try it on and that's hard because like you're not gonna get it, right? you're never gonna perfect it and And this is what I said say guys say to guys that are nice guys or struggle with indecisiveness is like, you need to learn how to exist in the tension of those situations that would make you say yes immediately or make you buckle. You kind of have to get comfortable in the uncomfortable. And sometimes it's going to come across as like an overcorrection.

So I don't know if I have a fully fleshed out solution, but I know because we're sloppy creatures, there's going to be an element of sloppy practice. I think we need to, what we do is we need to bring it back to, is this honoring God is the way that I'm acting honoring God. If my wife is sick, but because she needs to honor the marital, marital debt, I'm making her have sex with me. Does that, do you think God wants that? You just arbitrarily telling her not to go out to the library

to play with your kids because you want to see if she'll listen to you, would God want you to do that? I don't think so. You have to play out these scenarios. These are scenarios that come out in my head. My wife doesn't ask me these things. If I told her to just stay home, she wants to be home 99% of the time anyways, which is great. She'd be like, okay, I'll do that. But like, why? I wouldn't know how

to answer her besides doesn't matter why you just got to listen. Like we ought to fear God more. And I think downstream from that, like honestly, fearing God and like I have to answer for the way that I'm leading my family. I can see how that can make a guy really effeminate, but I think that's has to be part of the conversation. Does that make sense? Yeah. So it's like, I'm trying to parse this out out loud here. No, I like it. That's part of a long form discussion, right? Um, but yeah, it's like, how do I be a better man? It, answer is not, well, here's how you should treat your wife.

The answer is here's how you should submit to God. That's right. It begins with that relationship. It has to begin with that relationship. This is the issue. So so many guys are clueless because they haven't had fathers to guide them through this process. Like we're seeing this perfect storm of male loneliness, the absconding father and feminism. And of course we have this now. We have the red pill and feminism and men and women at odds. Men don't know how to be men because they haven't been taught by men and women

don't know how to be women because they've been fed a lie. The devil has, he's been really crafty and a lot in a lot of this, in some instances he's, he's one and he's rubbing his hands together. In some instances he's, he's one and he's rubbing his hands together. Um, and I think the only solution is to completely is just submitting to God, not in what you think submitting to God is what that actually is. And that's actually hard to actually spell out cause guys need to be told what to do. Cause even in me developing, you know,

me coaching these guys in my own marriage, it's just a product of kind of the mistakes that I've made. But how do I get this down into something that's like tangible and I can put into a program or here, go and do this. But the problem is what that becomes is much like the red pill. When I was interested in the red pill, there'd be like a certain situation that would come up in like a dating scenario. I didn't know how to handle it myself because I actually didn't trust that

discernment. How to handle this situation and then red pill Reddit and just see what guys have to say about it and I was just listening to these other random dudes on the internet and I think it's part of it is because we become so disconnected to our bodies. This is what I mean. We look at our bodies as just a means of transportation for our heads. Where I think a lot of guys especially nice guys get stuck here and they've kind of forgotten that there's like this There's this discernment here and I think there's head knowledge and discernment when those things meet there's wisdom Those things have to meet. Yeah, but there's like a bottleneck there. Mm-hmm. And I I

Hope this is making sense because again, this is so much idea exploration out loud, but this is as far as I've gotten with it, at least now. Mason- Do you mind me asking you a personal question? Is your dad still alive? Kline- My dad is still alive, thank God. I'm not in regular contact with him or really much contact with him at all, but I love him and I should pray more for him. That's actually a small part. I can't talk my wife up enough, but just a small side tangent here, if I will. For so long, and I think this is

relates to men in a lot of ways, I think guys will, this will speak to a lot of men, is that I tried to run away from my last name, Pantile, for so long. I tried to run away from my, my last name, Pantile, for so long. I tried to run away from like my father's legacy because he was that, you know, sort of, and I'm not trying to disparage him or dishonor him. I'm just speaking the truth. He was kind of that promiscuous, uh, unfaithful kind of guy. And so I went by my mother's maiden name for so long, Manarino. It's like, that was going to be my identity. I was going to change my last name.

And I remember my wife sat me down and we were engaged and she said, you know, our kids will only know that you're their father and I would love to carry your last name and all they'll know is that you're their papa, not what you went through. Damn it, Karen. Right? And so I said the other story every time and it like almost brings a tear to my eye every single time. And that was like the turning point because what I realized is that I used to hate him so much that in rebelling against him, I became more like him. And so when I came back to him, I said, actually, man,

thank you for this last name. Thank you for teaching me what you've taught me. Actually, you were probably hurt by your dad, and your dad was probably hurt by his dad, and there's this long line. But now so many of us that, I mean, yes, it's a burden that we've had to carry, but we can kind of be this new link in this new new chain, right? It's like you're not gonna sit in that shade of that tree like we spoken about but like what a beautiful gift that is

And so just any guy that's in that sort of in-between zone. It's like just dude whatever you do man Just don't hate your dad. Just please don't hate your dad God gave you that dad for a reason as cheesy as that. And I think it manifests itself in so many different ways. But anyways, I love you Karen. What advice do you have to men on how to forgive their dads? You just, you almost have to see them as innocent. Okay.

It's like you have to see them as like this boy that was hurt by their dad. And they just, they didn't know how to act any better. They didn't live in a world that we live in now where there's all this information about this. We're inundated with it, okay? There's a father wound. So many of the men's groups that I've been in,

there's this father wound process, this father share process where we're just opening our hearts about our dads, and that's oftentimes like the greatest crosses that we carry. Look at him as innocent. He was hurt, he did not have the tools at his disposal. He did the best that he could.

He could have been a total piece of crap. But that's it. And so what is the alternative? That's the question. That's the question I ask in so many situations. What's the alternative? It's like when these guys are like, bro, I'm never going to get married. You have marriage is such a risk. You're an idiot. OK, well, so what's the alternative, bro? Be a genetic dead end or to risk. Yeah, OK, my wife could take everything from me. But if I got to see my children and whatever happiness that we had still worth it Because there's that potential for the end of life being 70 80 90 and having kids and grandkids around us There's a lot of guys out. I know Rollo Tomasi I'll just name names because he always talks about how guys don't name names when they're talking about him

He'll say that this is a pipe dream. It's not a pipe dream I've seen it so often where these older men these patriarchs are surrounded by their grandkids and their kids and they die happy fulfilled lives. That's the goal. Cause what's the alternative to that? I just, you die alone. Yeah. And you become increasingly ugly as you get older. Oh dude, do you ever, do you ever like Tate's going to, Andrew Tate's going to feel that too. I pray for his soul not to even bash him either. It's like, yeah, he's not going to be the cobra always

Yeah, you might have the money but you know, eventually you get old and wrinkly. I think it was Janet Smith who made that She said something like yeah as you get older like I Don't know. Maybe was Gavin McGinnis. He says like you don't need your looks anymore They're less important once you get married you give them to your children go. Okay now you're beautiful You go do something with them. I've done what I needed to do. That kind of makes sense. Not that you should let yourself go, of course. Right? Don't let yourself go. Stay healthy. Stay, you know, to the glory of God and obviously to stay attractive for your wife. But yeah, there's something to that for sure. I can't disagree.

Let's touch upon that then. I think that's right. I think that needs to be said more about being as attractive as you can for your spouse within reason and without going overboard. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's also So many guys complain about their wives being overweight or whatever. It's like well, first of all, look at your gut and Second of all, how are you leading her to do that, too? My wife was impeccable shape when I met her she was a power lifter as well in great shape so strong. She had kids She was still in good shape, but I kinda let off the gas.

I was just like, I'm just not, she'll come to exercising on her own. Until I realized, I was like, no, no, no, I needed to be the one to say, hey, babe, like, it's okay for you to focus on you. I want you, I want you to do this, and I'm gonna help you do this. Like, first of all, I'm a coach,

I have a gym in our basement. Let's take the time, and I'm gonna go and do this. So guys, it's not because I needed her to be more attractive. This is not because I was already attracted to her, but it's also important for her to be healthy and to show our daughters what it's like for a woman to take care of herself and to be good with her food, which she is. Yeah. And to exercise and take, take care of her body, which she now does with our daughter's present. It's beautiful.

But it was me saying, I'm holding you accountable to this two times per week. And not that it's always like super gentle. I'm going to be like, Hey, listen, like you wanted me to hold you accountable to this two times per week. Mm hmm. And not that it's always like super gentle. I'm going to be like, hey, listen, like you wanted me to hold you accountable to this, right? She's like, yeah, let's go do it. So guys, like you also I'll say this. And see, the way you did that with your wife was with gentleness and love. Yeah. You didn't shame her.

You didn't make her feel bad. No, no, no, no. I don't think that's going to work. No, it doesn't work. Let alone it being a dick thing to do. It's also it doesn't work. Yeah. But what I'll go as far as saying, no, no, no. I don't think that's going to work. It doesn't work. Let alone it being a dick thing to do. It's also, it doesn't, it doesn't work. But what I'll go as far as saying, and this might sound controversial. It's like, if your wife is overweight,

then that's part of the failed leadership on your part. There are sites I've worked with so many women as a nutrition coach, so many women I've been in the fitness industry as a business owner, as a coach for a long time, barring like very significant diseases, which almost basically don't exist metabolic issues or a whole litany of issues that women deal with. And I sympathize with them for it because it does cause some metabolic

reduction. Let's say, uh, I've never seen an impact of women to the point where she couldn't get in shape again. If she just decided to just buckle down, we give them almost a little bit too much rope in that way. It's to say that yes, you deal with these issues, they're valid, but part of it is just, you gotta just be a little bit more disciplined. We could say that to the guys too,

but I think that's a reality we need to speak. It's like, I'm all for grace. You just had a kid. I saw what your body just went through, okay? I'm not trying to be an asshole, but past a certain point when you're ready to go, like, what are we waiting for? You're not just a point when you're ready to go, like let's, what, what are we waiting for? You're not just a mom.

You're not just going to put your hands up in the air and just like the dad bod. Why is that a thing? My wife said to me the other day, she's like, we were talking about something. She's like, one thing I've never had to worry about is you being ever being out of shape because you've never been out of shape. I said, praise God. Thank you. I've taken it to the extreme sometimes, but now I'm to the point where I'm like, I'm not afraid to enjoy a little bit with my family and just understand that I can still be in shape and I just want to be hyper obsessed about it. But I don't think people in general are

preoccupied enough. Yeah, that's not the problem. It's like when people say you're overdoing the spiritual warfare. It's like that's possible for sure, but that's not what we need to be worried about right now in the church. And the thing is too, is like you don't have to be a jacked, bodybuilder, powerlifter type of guy. Find a habit or a routine that you enjoy. I think resistance training is part of it because as we get older as men, the one thing we can always build is new muscle tissue, and it has a whole myriad of positive physiological and physical effects. Testosterone being the life force, our libido's, you know, people say from womb to tomb, you kind of come out like this and you go back like that. Well, if you're doing deadlifts, even if it's light

or if you're, you know, you're training your upper back, you're doing rows and pull downs and you're training, you're not going to have that. You're going to have that strong posture, that strong grip, which happened to have a correlation with longevity as well. So it's not just for the aesthetics. And this is what I tell women too, to make this more appealing. Don't focus on what you look like. Focus on the objective measure of like, what are you lifting today? What are you lifting a week from now? If you focus on like progressive overload and this thing outside of you and the

scale in the mirror, cause that stuff can do some funny things. You're eventually going to look better. Like those roads are going to converge. And so it's just a kind of a little bit of a, uh, just a focus shift. You know what I mean? I've worked with mostly women, so this is why I've been able to sort of like reduce it down in a sort of like a gentle way, but still kind of nudging them in the right direction. If you will. That's awesome. Do you still, you said you sold your business. I sold, yeah, I still do nutrition coaching, but I, I sold my business.

So it's not in person anymore. I was an in person coach for eight years. Forza Barbell was the name of my gym. That was my pride and joy. Now you talked about your cringe atheistic moment. What was that? Was it just like a cultural rebellion thing when you became an atheist or said you were an atheist and got an atheist tattoo of some kind?

Yeah, it's on my arm. It was like this, if you look up the atheist A logo, like that kind of, yeah, it's one of those I got covered up, praise God. I was 18. Have you ever, I'm thinking about getting that removed, but I hear it'll just leave a scar anyway. So there's a, I've been through a few removal. Yeah. It works pretty well. Let me, let me see that real quick. Yeah, there's, that's like heavy lines. It'll take some time. It won't be a scar. It'll be very, very, very faint. It would work. Yeah, it would work. It's just

very, very painful. It's a little it would work it's just very uh very painful a little expensive but more worse worse than getting the way worse okay it's like uh you take like a really really hot elastic band and and like slap it against your skin like a thousand times a second that's what the laser feels like that's great very good the atheist phase you were saying yeah so i i think it was cultural rebellion. It was also probably in the heat of the new atheist craze. It was 2000 when five, six, four, five, six. It was Dawkins.

It was Hitchens. It was Harris. I read the God Delusion. It was everywhere. It was that it overtook the culture. Right. Yeah. And then Hitchens is, you can't think straight when these things hit.

I use the analogy with you the other day, like a smoke bomb goes off, and you can't see or think through things clearly. Very confusing. It's very confusing. And so when a guy doesn't have his dad or anybody to properly catechize him, it was just, you get lost in it, right? Yeah. And so, I remember reading God is Not Great and the God Delusion, I was like, yeah, this is, this is, this is the way, and then you look back and you're like, this is just came out of anger and rebellion. That's all it was because these arguments fall flat. Yeah. And there wasn't many arguments from Hitchens. Do you ever watch his debate with William and Craig?

Oh, legendary man. Craig's all took him to the woodshed, the woodshed. And yeah, and there's also a couple of compilations of him, like the hitch slap. When really, when you look back, it's just like the cringe edge lord slap. Well, he was, he was terrific. I mean, he was charismatic. Yeah. Yeah. High verbal IQ was, was very witty, funny. I liked him a lot. That's why I was afraid to watch his debate with Craig because I thought I cannot watch another Christian get destroyed by this fella. And I was pleasantly surprised. My friend, Nick Stumpfhauser said something really funny and he was like, you know, Hitchens got esophageal cancer.

I'm like, yeah, he was a drinker and a smoker. He's like, but you know, also God has a sense of humor. You go through a whole life blaspheming that hard. Oh, is that a stand up bit? Oh, is that is that true? Wow. That's funny. Look at me getting corrected by. That's so funny. It's Aquinas. It's not Aquinas. Okay. Well he'll see it too. And we'll have a laugh about it, but either way it's true. I'd like to see who that community comedian is. Cause that's a pretty,

that's a pretty based comment actually. Yeah. Yeah. Um, tell people one more time where they can find you the work you're doing. Yeah. So you can learn more about, was that Andrew Schultz? No kidding. That was Andrew Schultz. That's so funny. You'll have to play it in this part of the interview. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's so funny. Anyways, you can find me on Instagram, Mike Pantile. You can find me on, uh, on Twitter, uh, Mike Pantile, my website, Mike Pantile.com. That's so funny. Anyways, you can find me on Instagram, Mike Pantile. You can find me on, uh, on Twitter, uh, Mike Pantile, my website,

Mike Pantile.com. And then again, that special project that was working on the Catholic masculinity project. Again, no obligation to ever join the, the paid group, but get yourself into the free group. It's so, it's been so edifying for all the men involved. If you want a little bit more support, get involved with the inner circle where we have a little bit more hands on. We have courses and Catholic guest speakers we have lined up and in-person

events. And again again it's all about faith, fellowship and brotherhood that I think selfishly I need but I think the Catholic world at large needs not because we're teaching but because I just there's just such a lack of it lack of that connectivity but that's where you can find me and also I got to give a shout out to Seamask the Christian Masculinism podcast that I do with Tim Gordon, Will Nolan, Nick Sumpauser every Friday so check that out and then other other than that, Matt Fradd, this was a... Yeah, thank you. I feel so bad that you had to fly from Canada for this, but I'm so grateful

for your time, and I know that this is going to be a blessing to so many people. I, that's all I hope. I prayed multiple rosaries on this, on this, and I, you know, I'm not going to lie, come here a little exhausted from a long day of travel, but... You don't look it. Thank you. And it's the, you know, it's the nativity, come here a little exhausted from a long day of travel, but... You don't look it. Thank you. And it's the, you know, it's the nativity of the Blessed Mother. I knew the Lord was gonna tame my speech and guide it.

Hopefully we, you know, we did him glory. That's all I wanted to do. So glory to Jesus Christ, Matphrad, thank you. It was an honor. Why don't we close with a Hail Mary? Let's do it. You want to start and I'll finish? Sure.

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Amen. Thanks, brother. Thank you.