Pints With Aquinas - Religious Life, Helping the Poor, and St Francis w/ Fr. Mark-Mary Ames

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

Fr. Mark-Mary Ames, CFR is the Director of Communications and Priestly Studies for the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal (CFR). He is a weekly presenter on Ascension Presents and the host of The Poco a Poco Podcast. His work is deeply rooted in his commitment to prayer, contemplation, and service, especially to the poor. Originally from Southern California, Fr. Mark-Mary experienced a profound conversion during his first year of college, leading him to embrace his vocation as a Franciscan friar and priest Shows Sponsored by: Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Strive21: https://strive21.com/matt Exodus90: https://exodus90.com/matt    

Hey guys, it takes a lot of money to keep this podcast going. Please consider supporting us at matfrad.locals.com. When you become an annual supporter, we will send you a free pints with Aquinas beer stein. Just pay shipping. You also get to interact with me on my exclusive stream for my supporters over at matfrad.locals.com. Thanks. So a slipknot concert. That was that's now we're going to begin. All right.

But really, that's exactly how we're gonna begin. Alright. Really that's exactly how we're gonna begin. So you were in the hotel last night and there was a bunch of slipknot fans. Well you know yeah they were I didn't know there were slipknot fans last night but it made sense this morning because last night it was just they were like getting ready for it must been the concert and so they were all in the kind of the black in the dark and the tattoos and the whole piercings and things like that. But then this morning at breakfast they been the concert and so they were all in the kind of the black and the dark and the tattoos and the whole Piercings and things like that good, but then this morning at breakfast They must have gotten their merch and so they were all wearing slipknot shirts, which is how I know it was

Concert yeah, did you just make a sound Josiah? Are we good? Oh, okay, that's right Yeah slipknot I was big into heavy metal you and I are about the same age were you into that not Really? Yeah, I wasn't a big big music guy and what I was would have been more like 2000s it more like hip-hop II. Yeah, then Yeah, the dark heavy metal stuff doesn't do it for me. I'm at a point in my life I don't know what this means, but I'm kind of I'm not listening to music anymore with lyrics. Mm-hmm I know no one's gonna relate to this

I'm gonna share as if someone will relate to it, but I don't think anyone relate to it The songs get stuck in my head and they haunt me and they don't leave me alone Yeah, I don't know how to get them out It's actually kind of like an obsessive thought that keeps coming back when I listen to music it like at a store or something So if I listen to music, it's jazz or Gregorian chant or lo-fi. Well, good on you for that. I feel like that's probably a healthy thing.

Better than slipknot. Yeah, it's better than slipknot. I actually really struggle to hear lyrics of songs. Oh yeah? And so I guess that helps me. Why do you, you have problems with the hearing or? I don't think it's a problem with my hearing. Whatever it is, I just don't listen in that way.

Like I immediately go thinking somewhere else. Like it's very hard for me and I just don't really value it. So, but so I will listen to the same few songs over and over again. And that kind of works for me. Like I do like it when I'm, cause I have somewhat of an office job sometimes. So when I'm working, sometimes I'll throw on white noise or sometimes I'll throw

on one of my few tracks. Yeah. And it just sort of helps focus me. I love that you do not. Here's what happened this morning. I wrote to my manager, Melanie, and I'm like, Hey, give me father's phone number. Yeah, he doesn't have a phone. Yeah, no, he has a dumb phone. He doesn't have a phone that made me so happy. Please tell me what that's like. Yeah living and there's a nuance to it. Most of us have no phones at all There are a few especially kind of our higher-up leadership who have to have some sort of smartphone for the last five or six years I've run our media as well

So I'm like I run our communications and whatever and so I do have and so I do actually have the use of an iPhone But the balance of it is that I've chosen not to have a SIM card in it Yeah, and so the big the big thing for that is we don't have the internet in our friary And so I have as a tool like when I'm at a place where I'm working and things like that and I can do what I Need to do But it also gives me the freedom when I'm at a place where I'm working and things like that and I can do what I need to do. But it also gives me the freedom when I'm in the friary, I'm actually in the friary and cut off.

Or like when I'm here and I'm traveling, it just, it kind of allows me to do my job but also be authentic to the Franciscan vocation. I was just in Assisi. All right. Like two months ago. Yeah, I've never been, how was it? Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah, I went in the year 2000. That was my conversion year It was a pretty radical change in my life. That was during World Youth Day. It was like a extension to the pilgrimage But I didn't remember it, you know It's been 24 years and so my wife and I just went the last six months in Austria and we were traveling to different Countries every every weekend for the last three of those six months Yeah, so we decided to take the family to Assisi and it is really cool. Beautiful. Yeah, I've heard it's one of the most peaceful places in the world. People kept saying that and I kept being like, yeah, shut up.

People just say that. I don't know. But it was really, they were right. OK, it was, it did hold up. OK. Yeah. But it was funny because we rented an Airbnb from a fella who was raised in a CC and It was really interesting to get his take on a CC. He called it medieval Disneyland Uh-huh, like it's not there's a reason this looks like a medieval town and it's for tourism Yeah, and that hurt my heart a little bit, but I get it Yeah, cuz I think my understanding is I don't know who's in charge of the things They're just super strict about building and changes

and things like that to preserve it, right? Yeah, and I think there's only a couple of thousand who live within the walls. But it was bigger than I remembered. It's absolutely beautiful. But, okay, so this must be the perpetual problem that all Franciscans deal with, namely poverty, right? Because I'm hanging out there,

I'm seeing a bunch of Franciscans with their really nice cameras and their phones, and I'm just like, I don't know how you come. I'm not judging them. I'm just, if I was in their sandals. Yeah. I don't know how I would go there and not just think I was the world's biggest fraud when you're confronted with exactly how Francis lived. Yeah, and yeah, to be honest, you don't have to go to a CCD to get confronted with Francis in that way. And that's kind of the ongoing, I think you

learn to do it, but how do you, you look in the mirror of St. Francis and then you see yourself and it's just, I'm horrible. Kind of, you know, and it's like, I just am not that at all. And I think to be honest that's probably something that all of us in different ways have, you have to like sort of process and come to some sort of understanding of how I can be a follower of Him but still so far behind. We have a prayer we say after Mass called the companion of Saint Francis. And it'll be, if I said the whole thing, I would know it, but just, like, we have this line about like, we're following you though from so great a distance

You can say the whole thing if you remember draw us to yourself most worthy father Francis that we may run after your fragrance Of holiness as you know We are lukewarm because of our sloth lingwood because of our isleness half alive because of our negligence This little flock is following you with hesitant steps our weak eyes cannot bear the dazzling rays of your perfection Renew our hearts is from the beginning Renew our steps is from the beginning oh mirror and model of holiness holy fire a mirror and model holiness that's what i can remember off the top of my head i literally say it it's like the creed it helps when people around you are saying it as well yeah and probably if i wasn't i was like

processing it in a new way while doing it oh yeah but that is a thing about, I literally said it every day for the last 15 years, but now on the spot you can't remember the whole thing. But anyway, that whole thing about, we're following you with hesitant steps from so great a distance. But also the understanding is, like what made Francis Francis was the work of God. And in a certain sense, if God wanted to make me Saint Francis, He could in the same way, but He has chosen not to do that in the same way. And so, there is just, even like, there's a holy looking at the saints for like inspiration and encouragement and admonition even. But then there's also a way in which you say, but like, I'm following Him, but the Lord is making me a

Franciscan in a particular unique way. And that's okay. What's weird about Francis and you correct me because you clearly know way more than me is that he was what they would call in the East a holy fool. It seems. Yeah. I don't know if he lives so radically and almost like irresponsibly, at least from an outsider's perspective. It's so weird to have someone like that

lead a religious order, founder religious order. And then also he's kind of like a Christ-like figure. I don't know anyone that talks about their founder. I mean, even in that little prayer there, it sounds like you're talking about Jesus. Like you're calling yourself the little flock, mirror of holiness. People, he really seems to be like another Christ. I know that's not what he

was, but in a way maybe. Yeah, and I'm glad you noticed that and I was gonna comment it on well, because I'm sure some of your listeners or viewers noticed it too, is like some other religious sort of make fun of us for how highly we speak of St. Francis in that prayer. Yeah. And they're like, okay, like just easy. Yeah, relax a little bit. But we do, what would be different, for example, in the relationship that we have to our founder than Benedictines to Saint Benedict and Dominicans to Saint Dominic, etc., is we refer to Saint Francis as the forma vitae, as like the way of life. And so, for many of them, it's like, for Benedictines, it's the rule. For Dominicans, that would be hard.

I know I think the Dominican focus is more on like sort of like maybe the theology and even Aquinas overshadows Dominic in some ways, you know. But for us, it's like the most important thing that St. Francis gave us isn't just the rule or writings or anything like that theology. It's actually how he lived. And so that's kind of like we hold him in a kind kind of a privileged, unique way that's different from maybe other. This is one Dominican once said to me, this is why there are so many Franciscan orders. He said, we follow the rule of St. Dominic, they follow the person of St. Francis. And a person is a lot more

interpretable than a document. Right. Right. And that's, I'm still, I don't know the answer to this, like how, there's just not, from my understanding, I don't know if there's any like official Benedictine reforms in the proper sense or in the same sense that there's different Franciscans or I'm just thinking, I know there's- I guess they caramelized how to reform with Teresa and John, but- But they kind of, yeah, and even that, so maybe that's like one or two and Dominicans are still, you know, Dominicans and all that sort of stuff. Like what it Why have there been so many different?

Franciscan orders and renewals and breaks and I think part of it is that There is a sense in which if you will there's um There is that sort of this to do you can do many things in a Franciscan way And so that kind of makes sense like who's that man meaning? You can have a Franciscan spirituality and be a college professor like you can still live simply you can still lean into dependence um, or you can be a franciscan and teach or you can be a franciscan and work at a hospital like or you can Be a franciscan and even be like a pastor whatever like for our or our order for example, like we're not going to be College professors um our order, for example, like we're not going to be college professors. Not because we don't have

guys who are smart enough or inclined that way. That's just not what we feel God has called us to do. The CFR specifically? The CFR, yeah. And so, and we're not going, for example, kind of a controversial thing in our constitutions is that we by rule do not run parishes, so we won't be pastors. And part of it is to protect our fraternal life, our life of poverty, to make sure that we're free and close to the poor. But you can still do that in an authentically Franciscan way, but we haven't feel that's what God's called us to. But what I think part of it is how human nature works, is that particularly towards poverty, there's always the idea, there's like a joke that when you become a Franciscan, you give up everything and then you spend the rest

of your life taking it back and that's something that you have to be really careful of and I think that happens for individuals but also it can happen for orders corporately and there's a part where you've just kind of got comfortable and you've got reattached and you kind of have to just Break and begin again Like I don't know if that's one of the reasons why, because we have this whole high ideal, particularly towards poverty, that that might be part of why Franciscans particularly

have to kind of like break and renew again. This kind of, I can only analogize this to marriage, right? Cause I'm a married man, but it reminds me of the compromises that married couples end up making. And you know, maybe the way they speak to their spouse or the way they, you know, maybe they're not as beautiful towards them as they were during the courting period. And then they seek to justify this new way of living as what's realistic.

And there might be some of that might be true, you know, like when my wife touches my arm and asked me to take out the trash, I don't swoon. I don't think I ever did, but it's not, things are different. So it's like trying to decide, okay, how much of this is compromising? And how much should I be striving for that first, that ideal of what marriage is supposed to be?

It's so easy to kind of become embedded and then just to sort of justify bad habits. And I'm sure that's true in the priesthood. Like you've got to, because I'm sure as a young man entering the Franciscans, I would have been super zealous for three weeks. And I would have judged everybody. And then I would have realized that I need gas in this car

or I need something. And I'm a yeah. Yeah and that's so I've worked, I work in formation. So currently right now I live in Yonkers, New York where I am the director of priestly studies for our guys. So I'm in charge of our seminarians and then spiritual direction for the Dawson guys. But the three years previously

I lived in our postulancy house, which is where postulancy is the first step on the journey of entering us. And that's about a 10 or 11 month process. But seen in them, but also seen my own life, this is one of the initial, this is just a super common movement. You come in super zealous, also idealistic,

also a little bit unrealistic. And so you have these ideas of this is what it's all gonna look like, and it's's all gonna be pretty and it's all gonna be whatever. And then you make vows and you go into life and you start to see these guys like, okay this isn't, this isn't what it was in postulancy and this wasn't, isn't what it was in a bishop. Like, should I be concerned? Should I be scared? And I think the, one of the, the, one of the things I talk to our guys is, kind of, I use this analogy of,

I don't know the specific like science, like a rocket ship, when a rocket ship's going up, it has like these boosters, and it has these sort of like extra engines which help get it into orbit, but eventually they drop off. Right. That as a young man,

you have a lot of these sort of like these like boosters that need to be purified and eventually fall away. And so there's a lot of motivation even for I want to like, I just want to be I want to like be a really good brother and I want to make everybody proud or I want to win the affection of my brothers. And so like there's this. And then what's the thing, that should be there. In The Brothers Karamazov, the author talks about Aliosha this way. He says something to the effect, I'm going off memory, but you shouldn't trust a young man who isn't idealistic

and who isn't overly enthused about... Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I definitely think, like, you want that and then you help temper and form it. Yeah. You know? But yeah, and then, you know... How did that happen in your life? How did it happen in my life?

It took me a long time. I was idealistic and with that, extremely judgy for a long time. Give me concrete examples. The first one that comes to mind is, which is... So as a postulant, again, so initial formation, I've been in it for two months, I remember we don't have a rule, we have a rule about when you can eat sweets and when you can drink and things like that, beer and wine in the fryer, but there's certain things like peanut butter, which there's not like a rule about it, but in my mind I had made this rule,

peanut butter is a feast day food. And so I had like a posh and classmate who was putting peanut butter on his toast just on a normal Tuesday, fairy all day. And I was like, so judgmental of them, like, what kind of Franciscan is this? You know, he's eating peanut butter. That would be like a super common stupid judgment to make, you know, and so you kind of like... What about how the Friars lived though, more concretely, like having, owning certain things? Was that ever difficult for you to vibe with? Yeah, I'm trying to think of...

What's hard is I've like wrapped my head around it now, and so it's hard for me to go back and unwrap it and not apply what I know. And so it's hard for me to go back and unwrap it and not apply what I know Yeah, you know I think For example There was warnings about from other Franciscan orders when they got in trouble is when guys started to use the radio and so because then a guy could the whole thing is that then you can go in your cell by yourself and you can Entertain yourself and you no

longer need the community. And so like hearing of a guy watching a listening to a baseball game in his room or talking about sports, those types of things. I was like, this feels worldly and we're not supposed to be worldly. That kind of stuff was hard for me originally. Yeah. What was it like? You still sleep without beds, don't you? Isn't that part of it? Or I'm sure there's an older friars that have. Yeah, yeah, the specifics in our, and that's what when I first, that's what drew me to the friars to be honest,

in my idealistic young youth, but the language is that the friars sleep on a mattress on the ground. Okay. And so some who have like some sort of back problems, whatever, a few might have a proper bed and then some have less. So some are on like camping mats, but I can match it on the bed.

It's like not that big of a deal. I mean, a mattress on the ground. It's like, you could do that. It's not that big of a deal. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, you know I was just standing with you all for a while. I was so pumped.

I remember just hearing that loosely. I don't remember any of the details. Did you actually do a visit? Yeah, so the way it started was I saw a friar in a World Youth Day Canada book. And he was one of y'all. But there was no information about him. He just looked really cool. And I wanted to be him. And it took me a long time because this was 2002. So it was before the internet was really easy to use and find things in the way it is today. So I remember then somehow I did net ministries in Canada, somehow came across y'all and I was like, that's them. And, uh, I was always on your website. And that would have been the old, old, old. I know exactly. Yeah. And there's, I don't know if you still do them,

those little black and white newsletters. Uh-huh. With the, what was that? They call it the Great Friar News. That's right, yeah. Oh, I was so, so into that, man. That was my, yeah. Yeah, and so I went and stayed with the Friars in England.

When brother John Paul. Yeah. Is he now father John Paul? He's very much father John Paul. Yeah, he was just our, call him our general servant for the last two terms. Maybe he was a priest back then, I don't know, 2008? No, I think you're right. He would have still been a brother. Okay. So he was there, brother Martin, and some others. And so I arrived, you want to hear this? Uh-huh, yeah, I do. So I show up and it was brother

Martin who said, you better go pray an adoration because we're gonna go preach tonight. I'm like, all right. So I threw my stuff in the cell and went and prayed an adoration. And then I come out and there's Brother Martin. He's got this crucifix that's been bloodied to look like the passion of the Christ. It's giant crucifix. And he's, what else? I think that was it. And so anyways, we're on the subway and I'm carrying this giant crucifix next to this Franciscan. And we went to this church in Soho, so not a good area of London,

and they had Eucharistic Adoration going on. And then Brother Martin unrolled this big canvas of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and he had a Polaroid camera. And so whenever people would walk past and say, you want your photo taken with your mother. Oh, that's clever. Isn't that cool? So he would take a photo with them and give it to them

and invite them to put it on their fridge. And I was giving her out miraculous medals. And that was really neat. But my favorite moment, which might get you in trouble, me saying it publicly, so if it does, it's just a joke. All right, all right, all right. We were coming back from a mission that they were preaching at and we were in the subway.

And I'm sitting there and we're about to get to our final exit and my brother's sitting across from me and he looks up and he looks super disappointed. And I look up and there's an advertisement that says, just because it says immaculate contraception, just because it's Christmas doesn't mean your condom won't break. Have you heard the story?

Uh huh. OK. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a that's a bummer. Yeah. And someone like kind of made a reference like he would rip it down. And this must have been the more kind of sprightly fella. And then the more soft spoken guy, I apologies, I don't know their names, but that might be a good thing, went up to him and was talking to him quietly. And I thought he was saying that's wrong, but like't know their names, but that might be a good thing. Went up to him and was talking to him quietly. And I thought he was saying that's wrong, but like we shouldn't be, you know,

vandalizing or damaging property. That's not what he was saying, Father. Yeah. So the guy comes in six, ex me and he says, it's going down. Oh, OK. You want this back subway? I don't know how they ripped it out, but it wasn't Quiet and it wasn't Yeah Inconspicuous and then it was me and three Franciscan fries running through a London subway. Yeah, it was the best time

I've ever had in my life That checks out and that wouldn't and that's something I appreciate about appreciate about our order is we're willing to Do it like you know to think outside the box a little bit to do it needs to be done and that's like I Think that's what's an appropriate action in that place. Yeah, so cool. I was talking to my wife this morning So who do you have on the show? I'm like, you know father Mark Mary and she went I don't remember but they're all awesome I've never met one I didn't like and it's so true. You're like people from Louisiana everyone from Louisiana. I've met I love What's funny is I am like that too with Louisiana, particularly South Louisiana. I'm from Southern, California

So that's still like my favorite place, but number two is South Louisiana and I say all the time I love it down there. Louisiana is like a country Off the like that's not actually America, but you can tell it's been influenced by America whenever I go through I'm like it's something weird about this place, and I love it so much. Yeah, have you where have you been down there? Well my favorite place someone asked me last night Where's your favorite place in America, and I have two answers to that the first is a steakhouse in downtown Kansas, Missouri

Okay, because I could smoke cigars while I ate steak and it was my favorite place. I forget the name of it. Where was it? Josiah, do you remember the name of it? You were there with me. Oh, in St. Louis. Yeah. If you don't mind looking that up. Oh, St. Louis. Sorry. Yeah, not Kansas. Anyway. Yeah. And then the second place is Rain, Louisiana. Rain, Louisiana. Where is Rain, Louisiana? I don't even know. OK, here's why it's my favorite place. I grew up in a country town in South Australia. Yeah. Missouri Athletic Club. If you live near St. Louis, make your way to the center. What's it called?

Missouri Athletic Club. Have a steak, have a cigar. Oh, it's beautiful. They've got like cheap cologne in the bathrooms. The best. So that's my favorite place in America And then the second place is right in Louisiana so I grew up in a country town and then the first two cities I spent Time in in the continental US was the Bronx as a first city of those I ever went This is America and then no offense to the lovely people who live in the Bronx, but it's not you know

How are you in the Bronx, but it's not, you know. Why were you in the Bronx? Because one of my fellow teammates lived there. Got it. And we were about to depart for Ireland to be the first team that went for net ministries in Ireland. So we stayed at her house. Okay.

And our tires got slashed that night. Okay. One night. All right. Cause there's like different parts of the Bronx but it sounds like you're in the Bronx Bronx. This wasn't a great place. Yeah. Second place I ever a great place. Yeah. Second place I ever visited was Houston.

Okay. Which I know there's beautiful little pockets in Houston, but it's a sprawl and it's not what I would call beautiful. So that's where my wife, who's my girlfriend, who's now my wife was living at the time. So when I moved to America, it was just like, my two experiences with the Bronx and Houston. And I was so unhappy because it was just gigantic and fast

and everyone was busy. So for a New Year's party, we went to someone's house in Rain, Louisiana. And it was so beautiful because it was like a little country town that reminded me of home. So I keep telling my wife, I want to go rent an Airbnb in Rain, Louisiana. Just have to find where it is again first.

Yeah, apparently it's the frog capital of the USA or something. I don't remember, but Oh, has that gone for him? Those are my funny answers. Obviously, San Diego, Florida, beaches are nice, mountain cabins. I've never been to Montana. I want to go to Montana. I don't think I've ever been to Montana. It sounds so poetic. You don't just accidentally go to Montana. I want to go to Montana. I don't think I've ever been to Montana. It sounds so poetic. You have to like, you don't just accidentally go to Montana. No.

Right? Whoa! Yeah, you gotta want it. You gotta want it. I'm sure, yeah, that's Big Sky territory. I think that's like the big... What is that? Have you heard that phrase, Big Sky territory?

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the home of that. Yeah, and Wyoming. Yeah. Yeah. I think those are the two states I haven't't really been to I think I've been everywhere else Yeah, I'm a suburbs kid. I feel very at home. Yeah in the suburbs

Not there's not a lot of country in me. Yeah. Yeah, are you a Cabin are you a like a beach guy or a cabin in the mountains guy? I would be much more beach guy than cabin the mountains guy. I would be much more beach guy than cabin in the mountains guy. I was really my whole upbringing was sports guy so my whole life was land sports and so we're like 30 or 40 minutes I'm from Southern California we're like 34 minutes 40 minutes from the beach two hours from the mountains but for the most part I stayed in Orange County and just was on fields and courts this is gonna sound really wimpy and it kind of is, but I love mountains, I love mountains, I love cabin.

Oh, that sounds so beautiful. Smoking a pipe on my porch, reading a book, that sounds beautiful. My wife loves the beach, but the feeling of the umbrella, so the metal plus the sand does something to my brain and I can't handle it very well. I do handle it for love of her, but it's just sand everywhere. And then you put stuff in the car and there's sand everywhere. I hate it so much.

You're not alone in that. You're alone in that in this room, but you're not alone in that in the world. I live with a couple of guys who are just, they do not like sand at all. That's not their thing. You've had, you remember you had Father Angelus on here? Yes. Father Angelus is the CFR location director. He was here a number of years ago. Is he the one who runs the podcast or part of the? He's on it with a couple of us. He's a triplet. But also his next door neighbor is also a

friar. And so there's a picture of Father Innocent, Father Angelus, and his name is Father Xavier when they were like, I don't know, maybe six and eight, all just sort of hanging out in a sandbox. All three of them? All three of them. Are in your order? Yeah. And they grew up two doors down or something like that. From who? From each other. So it's like the triplets, and then right like two houses down was where Father Xavier grew up. Oh, that's wild. And so they still have this like picture of them when they're super young. And I think it's in a sandbox. And I think Father Angeles in particular is not into sand. Yeah. And it's very clear in the picture. He's like not loving the sandbox life. We took a kid to the beach recently. They the parents said he hates sand. So he had to take a sheet and put this fat little one year old

on a sheet because he would cry if he would touch the sand. Yeah, I don't have any sand issues. No, I mean, I like the sand. I like running on the beach. I like sitting. But you've got to get into a totally different zone to enjoy. I do. Yeah.

I'm very much like serial entrepreneur. I like, you know like getting stuff done. When I go to the beach, if I'm in that zone, it'll kill me. I gotta somehow slow down into that space. I've learned to say this in a specific way. I'm not into what I call static nature, meaning I'm not really into mountains or trees or the country.

Like it just doesn't do anything for me. The ocean I love. I love that you've thought about this. Enough to make the term static nature. Cause I'm a Franciscan. And so there's this whole thing and it feels like you're not healthy if you don't like the outdoors and those things.

Like I'm super into animals. I could watch ants move around all day or I've gone on a couple of safaris down in South Africa and it's like my favorite thing I've ever done. But I get bored by, I couldn't just like sit at the beach and just be there. Or just. Oh you couldn't. I would, no, no, no, no.

I would still struggle with that. I would have to be running around and doing stuff. Yeah. No, there's a real flow I can get into if I, if I've got the perfect setup, you know, like the nice chair that's comfortable enough. Got a bit of the lumbar cause I'm over 40 now and I need that and a nice umbrella or a bit of shade. Got some drinks at the ready. Got a good book. I can't just go into that zone. I got to go run around, swim till I'm exhausted, but then and sure that's nice with kids

it's so fun it's such a beautiful place to take kids you know except for the modesty issue but it's just you know they can't break anything and they're so entertained yeah yeah yeah we don't have to go down that rabbit hole but I am aware that what yeah the beach scene is just different now than it was before. Hmm, meaning the modesty question. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, can I throw a pick up on something that we were touching on for a second is? Please I've been really interested in thinking about because we talked about you discerning religious life a little bit and being married The ways in which I don't know how much you've thought about this or talked about it You know, like we have the evangelical councils poverty poverty, chastity, and obedience, and that

it's a different way, but in a very real way, I feel like it's in marriage as well. Because one of the aspects of poverty is like you and your wife are kind of communicating about finances and you're probably never making a really big purchase without consulting her. I mean, difference from a couple to couple, doesn't it? Sure. Like what that limit is before you would discuss it. Yeah.

So there is still that we hold this thing together. It's financial, if you will, communal sort of thing. And then I think the chastity thing is kind of clear. And then even obedience. You guys are in communication. And one of these, I think, you can tell me if I'm wrong, is you're almost probably never anywhere. like you guys are in communication. And one of these, I think you can tell me if I'm wrong, is you're almost probably never anywhere, like you're, somebody always kind of knows where you are, what you're doing for the most part. Yeah. And I think those things are healthy. And I can mention

it because I think in religious life, some people don't think about this Because they maybe usually talk about it as like sort of like a sure means the holiness or whatever they kind of like use that Language there's also a big risk involved in that you don't have dependence and you don't have like a spouse you can just sort of if You want to get yourself in trouble you can get yourself in a lot of trouble I guess as a as a religious as well. You know, it's not like there's guardrails such that you can't. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you don't have, you know, I got kids that need like dental work and have dyslexia and sure. Yeah. And yeah. And I think really the heart of poverty is is like dependence

For us at least like it's not just about not having stuff and it's not about whatever it's about having being in a place where you're like Dependent on another you're kind of out of control and the dependence is oriented towards God but even like as a as a parent then you know, it's like Your heart is so invested for example in your kids and there's just so much around them That you're just not in control of and this giving up of control this it is I think an experience of a type of of poverty Right. Yeah, I think I think I think it was father Damien Ference who wrote an article that was called It's brown everywhere and it what he meant was like the grass isn't greener. The grass is just brown everywhere. And I think if I was a priest or if I was a brother,

I think I would be tempted. And maybe even now as a married man, like I sometimes like, I love the life you live and I'm tempted to kind of live separately and live the life that I don't have, or I wanna be away from the crosses that I do have because of marriage and family but I once heard a priest say you know when you're discerning the priesthood it's not like okay I can be a priest or I can

marry any of these women yeah first of all they wouldn't have you but second of all you get it's really just one woman you can have you know I mean so it's really like it's one it's one relationship you're forsaking for the sake of the priesthood. I don't know, I just, I think that's probably, I think there's probably a young man discerning a priesthood that would help. Cause you feel like you have these limitless possibilities,

but that's not the case. Or options, I should say. Yeah, I was here, I'm actually, so I was only here for a year, but I'm a graduate of Franciscan University here. Okay. And the joke kind of arose, I think from a couple of us, I was just on my way to the friars of how referring to like a particular young lady was like sugar and spice and everything. Nice. Like she she was like a nice, pretty girl, whatever. But also she represented this whole ideal

of like the married life. And oftentimes it was the greenest of greens, you know, it was out of touch with the reality of certain things. But I think there is something of that for young men, for young men and women and just young people in general of this in religious life or married life, just this idea that it's all gonna be this most beautiful, fun, exciting thing forever. But as the idea of it's love that makes it possible.

So cliche. But it's so true. Like if you told me before I loved my wife or knew of her, you're going to have to live with this woman and she's going to be there all the time. Yeah. And then you guys are going to have kids and she doesn't leave. Even once the kids have grown and left, you still have to, she's actually going to share your bed. What? Yeah, you're going to have to share your bank account. Okay, this all sounds awful without love, you know? But with love, it's like, that's of course, I want to give myself to that. Just like the Christian life. It sounds awful to people who don't love Christ, who don't love virtue, but I love Jesus Christ. I want to serve Him.

I want to... And I'm sure the same thing must be true for the brother or the priest. Like if you neglect your prayer life or you fail to keep growing in love with the good Jesus, then everything becomes burdensome. Yeah, yeah. If there's not love and relationship in the midst of, if you will, the cross, like it doesn't make sense, it just becomes a burden, it's no longer something oriented towards love or an expression of love, and it just becomes cold and sterile and ultimately beats

you down, you know? I know that fellas, you know, who commit adultery or are tempted to commit adultery, I wonder what's the difference in the kind of phenomenological experience of the married man versus the priest. Like I wonder if the priest who's tempted to break his vows, he must have different lies he wants to believe and would like to tell himself in a way that the married man may not. Like I imagine if I was a priest and I was tempted to break my vow of celibacy, it would be like, well, this is unnatural. And I, you know, I rushed into the priesthood. I was young and zealous. This is not realistic.

You know, whereas the married man says other things, you know, he blames his wife or he might say he was also too idealistic when he married her, but he shouldn't have. Sure. I don't know what I'm talking about. This is pretty depressing. Yeah, but it's real. And it's probably this, it's a similar, the origin of it's the same, just maybe the expression of it's different is somebody else's, there seems to be at least in

some of this, like a bit of a victim thing. Somebody else is doing something, it's their fault. I deserve this other thing or whatever. Yeah. So that's nice of us to talk about. Yeah. Well, I got to say, like, one of the things that's happened in my life with my wife over the last few years is we've just like, oh my gosh, like we've received a good amount of healing from our Lord. And that has unlocked places in our hearts that's like totally new geography to explore in each other and as a couple. And it's just, it's so beautiful. I can't imagine getting married and just like clicking

pause on growth and healing and vulnerability and being okay with that. I think I can see why people get angry and bored and frustrated. But I would say the more we've really pressed into the healing Christ wants for us, there are areas of my wife's heart that have been unlocked, that I'm seeing, and they're so attractive, and I will conquer them. And I can't wait, and I love her, and I want her, and I wanna pursue her.

And I imagine priests, I mean, it's true of our Christian life too, there's always more. This idea that when you were 16, you learned about the rosary and that blew you away, and you prayed that in a particular way, but then your faith life doesn't grow beyond that. I'm not saying you have to grow beyond the rosary, but even that the rosary doesn't become richer as you grow in relationship with Christ and the Blessed Mother, like it stagnates, you know? Yeah, what comes to mind, and I'll kind of get up to immediately what we're talking about, sometimes when I'm referring to the Friars in our life, I'll say that we're worse but

better than you think. We're worse in so far where we just have all the human experiences that other human beings do and there's, yeah, there's the struggles and there's the working through stuff and there's the baggage you bring in from home and all that sort of stuff but it's also in a sense better because There's just more like sincerity. There's more gift. There's more work. There's more there's more of a struggle to stay in it and to persevere and I think with But going like moving through that is kind of what we alluded to is it can be difficult

um, and I hope it's it's similar from my experience of religious life and then in marriage as well. It's harder but more maybe beautiful and fruitful than I thought. And like in my relationship with the Lord, in my own vocation, it's like, oh, okay, where I am now is not where I thought I would be. Like I thought I would be much like smoother

and have a lot more finished figured out and a lot less things a lot less baggage But you realize like the conversion is ongoing and the struggles ongoing but You had to you spoke of your bride and to sort of the same like I love my vocation with like all of my heart and and My my ordination date, which is May 26. It's like the most important day of the year for me. I just it just means so much to me. It doesn't mean it's easy. It's just I love it and I love

the way in which I get to know the Lord in it and to serve the Lord in it. And so but it was yeah, it wasn't easy and it's not easy, but it's profoundly beautiful. What's some advice that older friars give you that you know you gotta listen to? Yeah. What would be some of that? It's hard to know, because you can hear a sentence and not hear a sentence.

It's like our Lord, you know, you've been listened but not perceived. Yeah. So I know before I was married, if someone had given me advice that I now know, I would have nodded sagely at the time while not understanding what really what they meant or the depth of that wisdom.

But I would imagine if I was in your shoes, I would want to be going to older happy friars, you know? And be like, I don't know. Do you have that experience or relationship with some older men? I would say one of the art orders only we started in 87. So we actually have Work, we don't have a lot of grandfathers You know, so we don't have a lot of those people to pull from and so that's something that's gonna come more and more

And there's not yeah, there's not a lot of Hey sit down Sonny and let me give you some advice kind of stuff But it's from it's really I maybe through the model of their life. I think the things that come to mind, Father Innocent says a lot and he's not really an old friar, but and we'll say it's like this is just it's really just to celebrate like this is the most like we're the richest man in the world kind of thing like we're just so grateful and it's kind of it's all worth it. And so just like, keep going. Just keep going. And probably that would be, it's like, they use the Italian coraggio, but like courage and perseverance. And the underlying message of it is, it's all worth it.

It's probably like in a marriage where you hit your first roadblock and you have your first Disagreement and it feels like you're not going to get through it if you do then get through it in a healthy way like in A healthy respectful fruitful way then it helps you to trust that the perseverance is worth it Yeah, cuz you've hit that one road bump you survived and got better So now when you hit maybe an even bigger road bump, you're like, I've been through this before, the perseverance is worth it. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully you get to a place too where it's, like perseverance is the only option.

And that's helpful. What does that mean? Meaning like, I'm not gonna go anywhere. I'm not gonna leave. So I like, I don't have any option other than to stay in it and to figure it out, you know? And there's actually like a freedom from that. And there's a profound, I think, grace and strength that comes from commitment.

Yeah. And I think, you know, like for us, for Catholics, like within the marriage space, like the grace of commitment, like you don't have, you're married and this is your one spouse. So you have to figure it out and keep going, you know? But that the grace of it then is that you do work through this stuff. And not just sit and remain bitter. Yeah.

Cause that's an option that we've seen in priests and spouses. Yeah. Yeah. And you do have to stay in it. Like, I mean, you have to like not just staying in it, but you have to do the work. You have to stay engaged, right? But I do think this whole, you know, wedding at Cana,

the Lord serves the good wine second kind of thing. I think that's true of vocation and relationship with him. The best is actually down the road. I had a woman say to me recently, never compare your inside to somebody else's outside. So you might look at your marriage and kids and house and the way things run, and you're intimately aware of that and maybe some of the chaos of that. and it's attempting to then look across the street

or look at another family who seem like they have it all together and you're comparing your inside to someone else's outside. So that was excellent advice and I wonder if that's applicable to being a priest or a friar. Yeah, and I think, yeah, probably for everybody. It's, and it's almost, you know,

like we use that sort of don't compare type of thing. More and more I've been convicted of just the reality, and it applies in this, is that what gets us in trouble, what opens the door to us getting in trouble in many places, and when we're contemplating, that's that which we should not be contemplating. And one of them is like, oh, look how good this other person's life. And in doing so, you're not paying attention to what God's doing, like in your own life. In chastity, you're contemplating what, like, you can have a fallen impurity if you're looking at what you shouldn't. I like to say the idea of, like, the difference between greed and gratitude is the greedy person is looking at what they don't have. The person

of gratitude is focusing on, like, what they do have. And I just think that, kind of, with anxiety and stress or, like, there's so many things where What opens the door to us get in trouble including this comparison type of thing? It's just you're paying attention to what you shouldn't be paying attention to. That's good. Yeah. Yeah You mentioned, you know, we're the richest men in the world like persevere How do you do? I mean it sounds maybe like a cliche kind of question But how do we I think it is so crucial that we develop gratitude. But that's easier said than done. Yeah. Do you have any ideas on how to better do that?

Yeah. Because I think that's a great way to be happier. Yeah. And I don't know if that's the answer people want, but what we need to, I think we need to go back to remembering and to focusing on like the most foundational and important reasons that we have for gratitude Which are actually expressions of our faith like the fact that God created me and that he created me intentionally

That I'm known and loved by God and willed by Him, like the gift of baptism. And that by baptism, I have a share in Jesus' own relationship with the Father, and I have forgiveness of sins, that Jesus died for me on the cross, that I might have life, even though I'm a sinner, that He gives us His mother, that we have hope of eternal life,

that He's here with us in the Eucharist, that he's spoken his word to us. These are, building our life of gratitude from here is like, is building our life on rock. And what gets us in trouble is when we try and, if you will, those, because they're so familiar, they can become cliche and lose their meaning and that's problematic And that just makes us very vulnerable going into the world because if we're building our gratitude on Some like another person's experience of us or success or this or that that's just very fragile And that's a very vulnerable way to go about the world. Yeah. I, this is, I'm always praising the charismatics cause I love, and I love doing this too, like before praying, telling God who he is

and telling God who you are. Yeah. You're good. Yeah. I'm yours. Yeah. So helpful. Yeah.

I think another thing that's kind of interesting talking about comparing your inside to someone else's outside, right? Is we all have this basic idea of what the outside of a good Catholic looks like. You know, it might look like kneeling in a chapel. It might mean going to adoration. It might mean praying the rosary or some other prayer. Might mean going to mass regularly or something. Yeah, but you can do it. But see, how do you the interior is unseen? And yet that's where the work's being done. And so while I can compare my outside to your outside

and see that we're kind of doing something similar, not in your case, but, you know, I can't compare my inside. It's kind of like this undocumented or uncharted area. Yeah, does that make sense? Like there's concrete things for the outside Catholic life. I guess it's by reading the lives of the saints that open up their heart to you or reading the scriptures that show you

what should be going on within. Yeah. Yeah. If what comes to mind is, do you know what the PPF is? The PPF, it's the document from, I think the USCCB for seminary formation. and they have a line about like one of the struggles It's just something like maybe the struggles of the culture and that guys are coming in from the culture and one of them is this

the the primacy of Appearances over realities. Yeah, and so there is there's so much time and work and effort putting on the right face but it But that's not what really matters. Like the reality is what matters. And I think they're using that because there's this idea of submarining in seminary. A submarining where a seminary can submarine,

which means you do all the right things, but then you're also like hiding what the deeper interior stuff. And that we need, it's really easy to like, to have the exteriors and it's a place that could be safe and a place that can be, we can put a lot of energy into it as like a hiding mechanism,

but what we need to know is like, what's going on with the man? Like, how are they doing? Are they doing all right? Are they struggling? If they are struggling, are they sharing this to anybody? Because that's the that's the important stuff and I think that is and that's the tension is because the externals are what we can see and what we can measure and

The end and we have control over in many times. Mm-hmm The interior is the ultimately the stuff that matters, but it's harder to get to and it's much more vulnerable The interior is ultimately the stuff that matters, but it's harder to get to and it's much more vulnerable Yeah, that's why there's those characters that we all have met perhaps who are very disheveled and yeah, maybe have some salty language occasionally But we had we admire them because they seem transparent. They seem like they're actually doing the work Yeah, use that phrase. Yeah, even if they're unable to kind of keep up appearances, right? That is that is really I, something to reflect on. Like, if you want to keep up the appearances of being a good lay Catholic, or being a good lay Catholic with a YouTube channel, like, it's really easy to do.

Just keep talking about the scapular, and keep talking about the promises of Our Lady, and keep condemning liberal moves in the church, or bad priests. Like, just do that, and everyone and everyone will like clap for you. Yeah. But there's, where are you? Like where are you in all that? Exactly, exactly. And that's, and yeah, that's, and that's a thing of, I had a conversation recently, they were talking about some priest and they were sort of like claiming his holiness, but it was talking about all these things he was doing. And I've just been around enough to know that that just isn't an authentic sign of holiness. It can be an expression of holiness, or it can just be somebody who's hardworking and gifted and

has directed them towards a positive thing. And yeah, and that's just... And we even talk about, like, for us, you really know somebody when you live with them, you know? Like, you know the Friars and you know that sort of stuff, but then when you live with them, you get a little bit more sense of, like... I wish he wouldn't chew with his mouth open. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, like, are they, do they, you know...

I think prayerfulness, humility, a heart for the poor, a merciful heart, these are the more authentic signs of holiness than a lot of these other things, the pious externals, which people can equate with holiness. And I'm trying to take that and then apply that to us, the laity, so myself and then those who are watching. Like, how can I know that I'm doing, I'm really trying to be converted? And I think that is one way, you know, like, yeah, I think it's important that we acknowledge that the poor aren't attractive. Uh huh. All right. If the poor were attractive, it wouldn't be anything to brag about. Not that you should be bragging about it, but it wouldn't be any difficult. It wouldn't be difficult to love them and to engage with them. I live in student ville. We have a lot of stuff going on, especially this summer

for whatever reason, like people on these meth benders. I don't know what they call them, but prostitutes, like this stuff. And it's so unattractive. I kind of want you to agree with me because I'm feeling a little vulnerable saying that. I feel like maybe what I'm saying is- Well, because I think we have to- I'll keep going so what you say doesn't change what I'm gonna say, right? Go for it, go for it.

But I do think that if I'm, like if I'm coming, if I'm praying and then I go out and then I despise the poor man or the poor woman because they come up to me with the same bloody story They have 50 times about why they need money. Mm-hmm Yeah, that's not us. That's a sign. I'm not doing well, you know But if I can have that kind of presence of mine to like engage with them Mm-hmm in love and at least not despise them if nothing else

Yeah, I would say that's probably a better sign that I'm doing well. If I got my three rosaries in. Yeah. And you know, maybe part of that could even be pointing to is, is what is, is, is, it can be a sign of is what is operating in you natural or supernatural. Right. And where I'm gonna like, so first St. Francis, it very classically says that at first the sight of lepers was bitter to him, but that as he did penance and was converted that which was bitter became sweet. And there is this whole sort of Christian understanding of even Christ crucified being sort of, if you will, the most unattractive one, but in a certain sense, the one who draws us most to himself.

And so I do think when there is there is a capacity for love to enter into that equation and then the poor do become attractive in a different way. Yeah, I'm not there yet. I find them smelly and ugly and I see them yelling at their children who are obese because they're drinking coke at like nine in the morning. And I know that's not their fault. Because they're poor. What options do they have? They I know that's not their fault because they're poor what options do they have they can't afford groceries And they don't have a freaking car and so they can only buy their kids food from the gas station like I can Intellectually see all that and yet I feel I feel frustrated when I when I see it you know

Yeah, so this is more of a confession time But but I do think if you Had the opportunity to sit with them and to hear their stories, your entire, even emotional disposition to them would change. Because, you know, what my experience is, is that with the poor and many of them, is that their easiest day is harder than my hardest day. Yeah. And then you learn where they came from and how they got there and what they've gone through. And that, yeah, what's, I guess, knowledge and love when they enter into the equation,

that which was bitter becomes sweet. How did that happen for you? I think I'm probably on a journey with it because I think as a young man, it's you can live like an idea land and it's like yeah if the pole were like all of a twist I could love them. Yeah but if they're swearing at me and they're schizophrenic and they're but it's like oh cool look at me look at me suburbs kid from some southern California living in the Bronx working with you know the homeless, it feels exciting. There's a sense of experience to it. And then there's parts where, yeah, it becomes harder

and becomes burdensome or it becomes, one of the big things from St. Father Benedict is we need to make sure that we are freely being inconvenienced by the poor, but it's a place where it actually becomes inconvenient. And so I think I'm still, I have a lot of tasks, I have a lot of work to do, I have a lot of things that need to get done. And so the slowing down and being present for me is hard. And so I'm like not going to pretend like I'm not still struggling with

that, you know? But the moments I do get where I get to be with him and again have that real moment of like, oh, here's your story, here's what's going on that kind of thing that Always if you will brings back that first like love and so the importance for me is make making sure it remains relational Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, how do we how can we love anybody if we don't know them? Yeah You know because if you don't know them it is you just see the the it's gonna just frightening Yeah You know, because if you don't know them it is you just see the the it's gonna just frightening Yeah, and you just see that sort of the external things and the externals of the poor and the broken are not Naturally attractive. They're the the converse. Yeah How do you how do you as a friar like love the poor while maintaining boundaries?

I mean, this is different from a family Sure My wife used to take her homeless people out for dinner and I told her she cannot do that anymore. But God bless her for wanting to, you know? But it's like, that's not safe, stop that. So I know we have our own boundaries, but like, how do you implement boundaries? Yeah, I actually had a very profound experience of this.

I was, from 2012, 2014, I was in temporary vows and I was assigned to our friary in Honduras. And in our area, it's just, the poverty is everywhere and it's really deep and it's just, it's like super, super real. And there was just times where I was feeling just sort of overwhelmed by it, overwhelmed by the need or just hitting my own limitations of like what I my actual capacities what I could do and I was on a

Silent retreat and just just had an experience like a very I can anointed experience where meaning It was more just an insight like God made something happen in my heart We're had new experience of his like fatherhood and what it meant to actually live from this place of God being Father. And it basically, it just reminded me that I'm a worker in the vineyard, I'm not the Savior, I'm not everything. And that to actually entrust somebody to God's fatherhood is actually to do something, you know? And to accept, to discern and accept like what I can or cannot do and to be able to say like, Lord, I need to trust this person to you. And so like with boundaries and things like that, part of why it's hard is there's the sense that like I have to do everything and it's all on me and if I don't do it then

whatever it is, I'm stealing this person, I'm hurting this person, I'm not loving this person, but I do think that if we keep our work of loving the poor and serving the poor rooted in God's fatherhood, it gives us an appropriate love, devotion, willingness to do hard things, to sacrifice, but also a willingness to keep boundaries and to surrender them. I mean, do y'all, have you, as a friar, had people try to take advantage of your kindness? Yeah, yeah, every day. I mean mean not every day, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, okay, so we had a homeless shelter and one of the guys in the middle of the night was sneaking into the bathroom and like shooting heroin. All right, so that's a boundary violation and that just breaks the rules. And so I had to have the conversation with him of

like kicking him out of the homeless shelter. Down the road, we saw him a number of months later and he had become clean and he was doing better, that kind of thing. But those types of things are real and appropriate. And I think that's also like as a father, like we're supposed to be fathers to the poor and fathers also set boundaries because the boundaries are actually, if they're the right boundaries, loving and serve, if you will, the children under our care. But yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes we serve at the door and maybe we'll have pizza one day and a guy changes jackets and come back for a second piece and he says, and it's like, to be honest, that really bothered me when it

happened. It really bothered me because it was like, because I was like, did you, you already came up, you already did this thing. No, no, no. Just the, it was in front of other guys. And so he kind of made a fool of me. I got through it. I served him the next time. But I had a conversation with him about, like, it just wasn't cool. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Halo.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free.

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Personalities of others around us and how is that similar? Yeah, kind of loving what's unlovable and coming to find it delightful Yeah, I don't think I Don't think there's a quick fix or like a silver bullet. You know, this is all of this stuff, like, this is ultimately the fruit of our following the Lord and discipleship, you know, and so the experience of our poverty, the deepest levels of it, is ultimately going to be experienced when we live our vocation well and perseveringly and things going to happen to come up

And so as long as we're like living authentically and following the Lord and giving ourselves while praying and reflecting I think then we're going to Become come in contact with concretely our places of poverty But also then hopefully intellectually the light will go on as well. And then the more and more we get in touch with that Eventually we come to see, and as we converse and meet with people, like, oh, everyone out here is just kind of doing their lousy best and struggling and trying,

and they all have stories, and we're all in need of a savior. And some of it is to more degrees than others. But hopefully, hopefully it can lead to this place like we want to get to this place of just radical I think compassion hopefully just that yeah we're all dependent on God and there's this line you know yeah like the guy who comes in my door who's addicted to the drugs and who's lying to me whatever Like if I had the same life experiences as him, I would be right there and I'd be worse, you know And I think when you have things which make that more than just a theoretical idea, but you see like, okay

Like I'm I am really poor and vulnerable Even like morally like I'm just not the man I wanted to be or whatever all the time Those are great grace-filled moments. Yeah, that's awesome. I love what you said that their best day is harder than my worst day yeah, so important yeah that in my of the of the materially poor and those who are addicted and Yeah, it's absolutely 100% like it's not just and from like it's not just hyperbole or a nice thing like it's actual like fact, you know There's probably been a movie like that where a rich guy wakes up in the body and life of a poor man

Then learns to love them You know, I feel like you're onto something there ringing Ring some bells. Sure that I can't think of one. Oh, you're not. I think it's 100% is a movie. I know it is. I just don't know what it's called. I'm not good at specifics, details. Yeah. Yeah, I love, one of my favorite books in the world

is I Believe in Love. Yep. I recommend that to everybody. And one of the things it talks about is how we often apply the measure of our own love and mercy and kindness to the heart Of the Savior. Mm-hmm. And so we live in fear of him because just like we're disgusted by the poverty in others and want to dismiss it We're unwilling to forgive somebody if they've hurt us seven or eight times. Yeah We just just treat Christ like he's like us. Yeah like he's wretched and miserable like we are.

But if I could believe that Christ was all merciful and kind, much kinder than me and better than me, makes excuses for me kind of thing, then I think it would be easier to love the unlovable in other people. But if I... Yeah, does it? Yeah. So how do you do that? I don't know. I read the scriptures.

Yeah. And I tell myself what doesn't seem true. Yeah. Until I can believe a part of it. That's what I do. Yeah, because I think. That's who he's he's revealed himself to be kind and merciful. Right. Yeah. I mean, where we're screaming at each other on YouTube, snarky comments, clearly, you know, and Christ is forgiving people who were killing him. Like, what? That's wild!

They blindfolded him and spat on him, And they put crown of thorns. I always wonder how the blindfold would have went around the thorns. Like, did they tie the blindfold and then put the crown of thorns on it and did that mess up the blindfold? Or did they have to kind of peg the blindfold on some of the thorns to keep it there? And they spit on him and they hit him in the head. And you know, like if any of us were Jesus, I mean, we're already calling down the fire of heaven upon Father James Martin or whoever it might be. And I know that there are reasons for appropriate rebuke and criticism. But Jesus Christ is forgiving the people, nailing him into wood. And then he forgives the thief who, if you read all four gospels and take them all seriously, is abusing him at one point and then forgives.

That's remarkable. And then, according to tradition, Adam and Eva saved. They started this mess. I mean, if you were Adam, like you're looking down on Hiroshima and drugs and child abuse, you're like down on Hiroshima and drugs and child abuse. You're like, my bad. Yeah. Like how merciful is this Jesus, you know?

Yeah. But I so often am so afraid he hates me. I'm so afraid he or he loves me in an obligatory way, but doesn't like me. Yeah. Yeah. I know that affects how I treat myself and other people. Yeah. Yeah.

That was too vulnerable. You go. It wasn't. Oh, I mean, it was, I think, what? It's a very common experience. And I think you started out, I think, in the right sense of just marveling at the extent of his patience and mercy and compassion. But I think the trick then is, right, like that wasn't,

that's not just towards those who are scourging him and putting crowns of thorns on him and mocking him, but that's like, that's for Matt Fratton, you know, Father Mark Mary, that he loves us, and he really loves us in that way and that and I think this is a And it's like I there's a there's a way to nuance it and I'll trust we can nuance it later whatever But like there's a way in which what has happened doesn't really matter

what matters is that he wants to be in union with like he wants us to be with him forever and matters is that he wants to be in union with like he wants us to be with him forever and That so he's not like he's focused on saving you and saving me and being with us forever and he's not focused on the mockery He's not focused on the the thorns. He's not focused on the pain like he's focused on the father and the father's will and Like it's motivated by the desire like I want to be with you forever, you know and I want you to be saved because I because I love you and because You need me. Um, wow Yeah, so I think I Don't know that's beautiful

Yeah, it's sort of like when you want something enough You don't count the cost or the cost seems almost trivial to you. Yeah. And so if what Christ wants is our salvation. Yeah, yeah. And I, yeah, I'm going to use like a really mundane example, but to get to like I just experienced that, like in sports is like you're focused on winning. You're not focused on whether or not you're like going to be hurt along the way or hurt tomorrow, like the focus on we got to win this game, you know? And so like with like again now taking that silly example to I just think that that's

really what Jesus is focused on. He's focused on the most important things which again are his father's father's will and fulfilling his mission and saving us. And we get caught up because we don't love each other, we get caught up on the all the other stuff and we're missing the main thing. And we get caught up, because we don't love each other, we get caught up on all the other stuff and we're missing the main thing. Again, we're like, our eyes are focused on the nonsense and the trivialities and the imperfections. And we've lost sight of the fact that.

As a father, sometimes, like the times I've lost my patience with my kids is when the cleanliness of the house was more important than them, which is apparent, which is why I maybe yelled or something. And I do think that's a good analogy to what's going on today. Like the world is a mess.

And right now there's just such a lack of love. You look at our political conversation, you look at the ecclesial political conversation that's taking place online and we don't have time for love, get the frigging house in order. And so it's just about kind of condemning each other, criticizing each other. Yeah.

And there's safety, there's some kind of safety in that. And there's almost like at least on a natural level, it makes sense. Like you can't actually live in this pigsty. Like things have to get better. Yeah, correct. But I take it upon myself to be the one who decides how it's gonna be and yeah rather than just sort of Yeah, submitting myself to God's will his permissive will that doesn't make sense to me

Yeah, and I'm sympathetic to it in so far as people are beat up and they're hurt and they're afraid and so we have gone it's like fight-or-flight. We've a lot of people have gone to fight and and Sometimes and many times I'll say in many times they have they have reasons Like their hurt is authentic and their fear is justified But I think but also I think the Lord wants to to bring healing and ultimately confidence where there is hurt and fear. Mm-hmm. And then from that place we can have an authentic

Working towards communion to truth, hopefully Yeah, but yeah, yeah I Don't I don't want to I just yeah, I Understand where people are coming from when they act the way they do. I don't like to I just yeah, I I understand where people are coming from when they act the way they do I don't like the way the The conversation happens, especially the public conversation all that sort of stuff

But as I again as I meet the people it's almost like like with the poor the whole like when you meet what happened to them And brought them to that place The movement is like, okay like one of hopefully of compassion and deeper understanding without Sweeping under the rug the wrongdoing, et cetera. When I look at some of these kids on this street and they're like five and they're obese already because of the reasons we mentioned, like they're just hanging out in bad company

and their parents are screaming at them. You just think what hope does this kid have and I know we all have hope and then all people can turn their lives around But how how merciful is is Jesus to those kids? like what if they grow up and just become drag a drug addicts and beat women and Like where's the culpability or where's the I know this culpability, but like how do we how do we make sense of that? How do we make sense of a God who we want to send people like that to hell while he sees? What they've grown up in and yeah yeah, and

Part of it is we have to begin in the place that God sees it as aware of it and cares about it as well you know, I place that God sees it, is aware of it, and cares about it as well. You know what I mean? God sees all of it and He cares about it more deeply than even you or I could. So we're not in it alone. And then you have to kind of... One of the... This very... A priest who's done been a spiritual director to a ton of our guys says this idea of life's

going to have the struggle, make sure it's the right struggle. And, you know, figuring out the culpability of this person just may not be the right struggle. It's not my job, is it? Yeah. It's not in my job description. Yeah. That's really relieving. Cause sometimes I'll walk around just judging everybody.

Yeah. And I remind myself, God hasn't asked you to do that. Yeah, but I, yeah, you can just chill out. Yeah. You don't need to, no one's asked you to. Yeah. It would be better for everybody if you just didn't do that. Yeah, but I, yeah, you can just chill out. You don't need to. No one's asked you to. It would be better for everybody if you just didn't do that. Yeah, and I wonder if, I have this kind of working idea. There's the parable of how the weeds and the wheat grow together, and whoever's in charge of it says, like, give it time, it'll be taken care of. Sometimes I think God's patience is scandalous to us.

Very. And like, why fix it? That thing is bad, like fix it. And somehow we have to surrender in like, hope, in like supernatural hope that God sees it and is aware of it, and he's got a plan and that he's gonna respond. But he seems to take his time more with things and endure things more than we would like him to.

Yeah. Not just like over the years, but in an individual's life. Like I find it incomprehensible. I'm not saying it's not true, but I find it incomprehensible that a child can be born into an awful situation, abused grow up to be an evil person himself and then die and go to hell Mm-hmm. Like what kind of loving God would permit that kind of life? Why would you even make him just to send him to hell when you knew that this was gonna happen to him?

Yeah, and I think Just our understanding at the Catholic moral understanding of how copability and things like that work, like, we don't know how the child who is born in that situation will ultimately be judged, you know, we don't know those situations, but... Right, that's important to keep saying. Yeah, and there, yeah, there's this, and God, right, are you familiar with the concept of spiritual bypassing? No, please tell me. Spiritual bypassing, it's this offering, at least one working definition of it that I would use,

would be offering like a very simple spiritual example to a more complex human reality. So, for example, I think where Jesus models this in the healthy way is with the raising of Lazarus. So, he's told his friend's gonna die, he says it's gonna be for the glory of God. Lazarus dies, he comes to Bethany, Martha meets him, then Mary meets him, and then with Mary he weeps. He already knows he's gonna go and raise Lazarus from the dead, but he still enters into the human experience and suffers with her, okay? And then he goes and raises Lazarus from the dead And so I think the the idea of that is like, okay, God knows it's all gonna be Okay, and he's gonna work through all things for the good for those who love him, you know Romans 8 28

But at the same time he enters into the experience and reverences the the human and so like with the like this example we're sharing God can allow certain things to happen and continue to happen because of His ability, like, essentially the context of eternal life, meaning whatever, and this is where I don't want a spiritual bypass. I'm not just going to, like, no, just get over it because heaven's forever. Okay, that's what I wanted you to explain to me real quick. Spiritual bypass. I'm not just going to like, no, just get over it because heaven's forever. And it makes it, you know, yeah. Explain to me real quick. Spiritual bypass.

Can you just, I think I understand it. So like, like a bad one would be, okay, someone comes and they, um, their three year old child just passed away. Yeah. And a Christian, well, God will make all things right. And a Christian says, oh, well, aren't you'll see them again. Aren't you happy they're in heaven? And like that does great.

That's what Christ didn't do. That's what Christ did with do. That's what Christ didn't do. Yeah, okay. Or like the more, a very common spiritual bypassing would be instead of doing the human work of getting myself right and communicating or figuring out why I'm doing stuff, I'm just gonna pray and think that that's gonna take care of everything. Do confession, forget about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's like no, you know, like with chastity, freedom from pornography addiction, like you got to pray, and that's like no, you know, like with chastity freedom from pornography addiction

Like you got to pray and all that sort of stuff, but there's all the other work. You're gonna have to do as well but just to say like I think that the Lord right part of the mystery of suffering and all that is in A sense the Lord has the authority to allow it to allow it not to cause it to allow it Because he can also bring about this sort of this good that's beyond our understanding and eternal. And so we do also have to like just, you want to reference it, you don't want to disregard the suffering and just spiritually bypass it, but there is a part of surrendering to who God is and what he's capable of and what eternal life is and things like that.

Yeah, that's Aquinas' response to the problem of evil. Sure. Namely that God wouldn't allow there to be evil unless he could bring a greater good out of it. And that doesn't just mean Christ from Adam. It also means whatever in our own life. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. In the physical creation, invisible creation, there seems to be a pattern of God has set rules that he is going to, like, he's going to honor in a sense, like with very few, except like gravity, you know, I could, gravity is gonna happen and what happens with gravity for better or worse

is gonna happen. I think with, similar with freedom, God has given us freedom and he's not taking it away. And that leads to a lot of the struggles with the misuse of freedom. And sometimes it's like, why didn't stop this, like take it away or stop it in this particular instance? And there is this mysterious way in which he's given us freedom and he's not going to take it away. And there is this mysterious way in which He's given us freedom and He's not going to take it away. Mm. Yeah. Now this book seems like it's probably going to fit in nicely here. You wrote it, The Father, 30 Meditations to Draw You into the Heart of God.

Yeah. And it starts with kind of going back to where we started here with St. Francis. But the idea is this is a beautiful cover by the way. Nice one Ascension. Were you impressed when they very impressed you have it's always scary as you know, as you know, someone who's written books. Yeah. You don't have this is very lovely. Yeah.

So nice job. Team Ascension. But, you know, the more I've worked in formation in my own life, my own spirituality, just being with people, like, there's the question of the Father, both naturally and supernaturally, it's just like at the surface and people want a father and they want a dad and all that sort of stuff. And I've just kind of wrestled with the idea that it feels, God's fatherhood can feel a little bit abstract.

And so the work of the book was to help it be accessible, like what does God being Father actually mean? And the means of it, and what kind of like queued it up indirectly is, so each of like the chapters uses a story of a real biological or spiritual father that like portrays a particular characteristic of a father's heart. And then also then I tie it into like with Scripture and Revelation, how is this true of God's fatherhood as well. And I like, I think the, and right, like when disciples ask Jesus to pray, he says, our Father, the Holy Spirit cries out in us, Abba's Father. Like there is this cry for the

Father, which is Christian, which is part of us. And I do think that it's a perfect image because it begins with this unconditional love and the celebration and the sacrifice of Father, but also the Father has to have a rightful authority and has to set boundaries. And so, I do think the Father helps us understand well, God and how He's operating and what He's doing or not. And I mean, I don't know if you've thought about this much, and I didn't think about it much. You know that the story of St. Francis, like his, right? There's this part where- With his father.

With his dad, right? And sometimes, so the story for know, the story for the listener, if they don't know is Francis has conversion and he starts doing sort of wild things. As we talked about, given he's living as a poor man and he's kind of a mockery and he's a beggar and people were making fun of him and all this sort of stuff.

His dad at one point like basically like puts him on house arrest. He escapes, keeps going back to it. And then he takes him to the bishop. And what he's doing is he's going to denounce him and like cut off all of his rights publicly. And the way I think about it is like what the prodigal son to his father in this situation,

the father's doing to the son. Like the prodigal son goes and says, give me my inheritance, like drop dead. We're no longer in relationship I'm gonna live like you're not my dad anymore But francis's dad does that to him? And this is in the situation now where he's like with stripped of all of his clothes and he says now I only have like my father in heaven

I am just convinced from what I know about people that that just that type of father wound doesn't just go away You know like having your dad do that to you so publicly had to have left a deep mark on St. Francis and I think he just had to have a really deep father wound and what I believe happened and the kind of working hypothesis is that Part of why Francis followed Jesus so radically and so totally was that he knew Jesus would reveal to him and bring him into relationship with his father. And it was part of this being in touch with and honoring like,

I am made to have the perfect love of a father and I'm not going to settle for anything else, which drove Francis' like radical poverty, which drove his radical charity and which drove his sort of radical following of Christ. And what I believe is true is that we have these desires for a perfect father. Mm-hmm. And I believe that these are, if you will, these are more than just desires, they're promises, and they can be fulfilled in Christ. Or they're fulfilled in God, and His Fatherhood, right? And so the encouragement or the hope is that so many people have so many experiences of dad, some positive and some the most negative possible, and that they feel like this isn't right, and they feel it in so many different ways,

but that part of the hope and part of the the end of Christianity is putting into relationship with The perfect father who is God and that that relationship and his fatherhood is real and healing and satisfying How do people experience the relationship with the father In this sense, I don't know. I mean you're my age. When did you kind of embrace your faith? I think I really took hold of it freshman year of college. Yeah. So roughly around the same time. And what I found was, I don't know, were you part of or did you know people who were part of the kind of charismatic renewal? I knew people who were part of it. I went to a few things. I was never like front and

center and deep I don't think I was front and center either but I loved it And there was a lot of talk about like what the Father's doing and you know Like how what the Holy Spirit is revealing to you. There's a lot of that kind of talk That's really interpreted in a subjective way But it feels like today we're afraid of that in the church, I think. That more, you know, there's a lot of mess that came with, I'm using the charismatic renewal maybe more broadly than I should to kind of just include this idea that God's

at work in your heart right now and is communicating, guiding your day, like intervening in your life, right? So that there is this subjective element that I interact with the father. Yeah, I feel like that was I Don't know. I feel like we're bending the other way now Mm-hmm, where it's like we want the structure and the formal prayers and the get in line and that this is what the church teaches and you shouldn't be going to the nervous order or Depending on the extreme example you're hearing right like we want order and we don't want any of this. My relationship with the father is something real

and they wouldn't say that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, help me explain what I'm saying. Yeah, a thousand percent. I think so there's, there can be two, would be the word. We just gotta keep it Catholic and keep it all in the right sort of tension and context. And so there's, in one sense, there can be, like, we need to honor and to reverence and to, like,

really believe that we can have a real relationship with God and He's really at work in the world, and that really means something, that He can actually speak to us and He is speaking to us, and we can actually hear and just, and, like, respond to God's work and his voice, that he can heal, that he can do all that stuff. That is 100% Christian that's revealed in Scripture. It also has to be properly discerned, right? And I saw some of the charismatic stuff gets in trouble where it takes out a healthy Catholic discernment, and it becomes like a real honest, deep without like prudence and without discernment and then that kind of

can become weird and make people uncomfortable and Make people kind of go the other way and then there can be on the other side, you know There can be a move towards I would say like control at the service of safety. Like, we like, there's a lot of ways in which we have relationship with rules. We can set rules and use rules to make things black and white and to feel safe. And here's Catholic and here's what Catholics do and here's the thing and here's that. And that's very, very safe and very, very controlled. That's it. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

But you had, but then is that open to authentic movements of God and the spirit? Like, yes, like this is what I'm saying. Yeah. Right. Is your prayer, I'm saying prayers on speaking to God and I'm checking off the list without any actually openness to God saying, speaking to your life, interrupting my life. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like a lot of us Catholics who are seeing dissent, seeing heresy would be just fine if nobody had this kind of interior relational relationship with God. Like we'd be fine so long as they did the things that we know Catholics should do and told the line and voted for Trump and the things that needs to be these concrete things.

But in so do. Yes. What did you call it? At the at the expense of safety rules in the expense of for the end or? Yeah. Well, I would say control at the service of like safety. Yeah. Yeah.

That's it. And there's I don't know any human being who would actually articulate it the way I did. Like no one's out there being like, no actually like the father isn't at work in your life and it's only about the word. No one's saying that. I just think there's this tendency, disposition,

like it's a lot safer. Like there's been enough crazy business. So here's what we bloody well need now. We need your daily this and the church being like this and the mass being like this and that's what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and so I think both extremes can have, has a downside. One could be like I just, I want to be able to sort of, I don't like rules, I don't really like obedience, I like to be able to do the thing and I'm gonna say

God's doing it and there's just yeah there's just this radical and sometimes too radical freedom I once gave a talk somewhere I'm glad I forget where and I felt it came up to me after as I was kind of meeting people he's like hey the Lord just like the Lord wants me to sing over you oh god no yeah that's never gonna happen tonight I hope he did I mean what do I know but I I was like, okay, and cowardly. I was like, oh, let me just and then I left. Yeah, I did not want that man singing over me. Yeah, and I'm like that and that would be another expression of like spiritual bypassing is I'm gonna spiritually bypass all social norms.

Yeah. Any prudence of what may or may not make somebody comfortable. Yeah. Like, can I pray over you right now right here? Like what do you want to pray with? I don't know you. Yeah, I don't really feel comfortable telling you what that's right. I actually need prayer for right now That's right. And that's okay. Yeah good, you know, that's helpful Yeah, and then yeah, so and then the other side again, it's just and I really see it and there's my work Catholic So that we have rules and we have rubrics and we have morality and we have all that sort of stuff. But it can be, if you will, weaponized, and maybe weaponized in the right word. It can just become, again, a place of control and a place of here's

the good guys, here's the bad guys, here's what the good guys do, here's what the good guys don't do. Here's the bad guys. Here's what the good guys do. Here's what the good guys don't do. Yeah, and it's just We're trying to create an artificial safety, but with some spiritual things and and there but at the same time like if it's not There's just some downside to it, especially if it lacks charity and it lacks compassion And it lacks an authentic relationship with god You know it can be rules, rules over relationship kind of thing, or rubrics over relationship, and we want rubrics and relationship. Yeah.

We're both. So how do you do that in your personal life? Because presumably in prayer, you're bringing things to the Father, you're expecting Him to speak, you're expecting to be able to interpret however it is he's going to speak. Like, how do you do that? I mean, I do it. Yeah.

I'm not saying I don't do it. Yeah. I'm just wondering how you personally do it, especially with a book like this. Yeah, I feel like I've been doing it for a while and I've had a spiritual director for, you know, there have been different ones, but I've had a spiritual director my entire religious life and I have had the same one now for five or six years. Like you do, like there is a learning of it. Like, there's a learning of God's voice and how he particularly acts in our lives. And I would say

that there's like, there's a consistency to God and how he interacts with different people, but the consistency might be different, right? So, how God lives and moves and speaks to you is gonna be consistent, I believe, but it might be different than what he does in my life. And we need to have space for both, 100%, you know? But I just feel like, yeah, like, in one sense, if you will, God's voice and His speaking to me is super, super concrete. I, we have office of readings at six o'clock and I need to be up and be at office of readings at six o'clock and that's God's will. And then I need to pray for the next hour because that's what our rule says. And then I'm going to do my, a lot of it is like I have duties and responsibilities and

God's will for me is to do those duties and responsibilities as well and as faithful as I can. Like throughout the day, I would say like what God has asked me to do is pretty consistent and there's not a huge amount of variable, you know, which makes sense. But then I do need to be open to, again, the invitations of charity, the invitations to be interrupted, things like that. I don't know that that's really well answered your question but that's how it works for me I had a woman once give a good explanation of this she had just done the Camino okay and there were people who went ahead of her and that she knew and they would make these little rock formations yeah along the

way and so as this woman would walk she'd like ah like I know that that's from them Yeah, or her or him and the point is that like as you get to know the father you go ah Yeah, that's the father like that's that's the Holy Spirit. Yeah, that's how he works. That's that's how I understand him to work Yeah, yeah, and you know like we've You're familiar with the concept of charisms, right? And so, there's like, if... No, I don't know if anyone really talks like this, but there's like big C charisms and little C charisms. There's like the Franciscan charism approved by the church, that sort of thing. But then there's an understanding that like individuals themselves might have particular charisms from God, and that these are

God-given, and that these are supernatural places of fruitfulness for the kingdom and for our own journey And so also part of my work like we go through a whole charism inventory Discernment and I've been through that and so even I've like part of how I discern what God has asked me to do is also Discerning through seeing these patterns like my charisms And so I've kind of honed in on like three of them and so I prioritize like staying in that pocket because that seems to be the place of, we'll call it like disproportionate fruitfulness.

Oh, that's good. You know, so when I'm here doing these things, I've seen God be uniquely fruitful. And we use, I think it's from the CNN Institute, I think Sherry Waddell is part of that. And so my main three that i operate in are our administration um encouragement and it's one that they call helps which is ultimately putting fuel on somebody else's fire but isn't that the same as encouragement how is

that so encouragement at least the encouragement for me is like I'm meeting somebody one-on-one They're really struggling. I'm able to enter into it with them to Be in it with them and to give them sort of the encouragement if you will like be a source of grace for them To feel consoled and to have the courage or the strength to make the next step helps is a little bit more like Like one of our brothers, Father Isaiah, he just had a music album come out and I was like, I'm doing all the practical stuff. I'm like helping him. He can just do the music, he can sing the songs, I'm gonna take care of the rest of it. And

most of my media work where it's actually in the pocket is that the service of our community. So I don't feel called and I don't really feel anointed to be an individual speaker. And when I'm just out there doing my thing for Father Mark Mary, like it just it falls a little bit flat. But when I'm doing it at the service of like there's this beautiful gift in the friars in the community and I want to share that with people, that's when it actually is most fruitful. Like your podcast. Exactly. Exactly. Tell us about that podcast., that's when it actually is most fruitful. Like your podcast. Exactly.

Exactly. Tell us about that podcast. So it's called the Poco Poco podcast, which has a whole story to it, which is really, I think, beautiful if you want to get into that. But it started with, it's actually funny. So I've been doing Ascension videos since like 2018. And how that started is I was sitting in St. Leopold's Friary, there was five of us,

and there was this priest. These priests kept giving these like phenomenal homilies. And I was just thinking like, we need to get this out to more people than this. So I went to my superior who was Father John Paul, and he said, like, can we see if we can basically work with somebody else who's already doing it?

Eventually got in touch with Ascension after a number of years. They're like, it ended up just being me who was doing it. And then so I'm doing the media thing. And then I have a friend who invites me out to like a secular communications conference. And one of the things that they say is podcasts are going to keep growing. Someone who watches the Ascension videos reach out. I love it. Do you need anything? I say, yeah, I think we might want to start and get a podcast. So she's, she's going to donate the equipment. I

talked to three friars. Hey, you guys want to be a part of this? They're all in it. They're all talking about father son thing, whatever. The equipment comes, I reached out to the guys and I said, Hey, when do you want to get set up? And they say, Oh, we didn't really know you were serious about that. So then I had the equipment, nobody to do it. So I asked father innocent Angeles to be a part of it. And so that started, we started recording before 2020, but it came out in 2020, sort of the COVID time. And-

Is it an audio or both? It's audio and video. It's audio and video and it's myself. And I'm actually really grateful that you brought this up. It's me, Father Innocent, Father Angel Father Angeles and Father Pierre Toussaint, Father PT. And Father PT is on our general counsel. Innocent is on general counsel in charge of postulance and Angeles is vocations director.

They are. Yeah, I don't know that you've really met them. They are phenomenal men. Like they are my best friends, but they are also like more than friends. They're kind of heroes of mine. And they they really know and serve and follow the Lord. And they know what they're talking about. And it's such a gift for me just to be with them, but also to share them with the world. Like They are just really phenomenal men who know what they're talking about and knew the Lord. And so I think it's just been a great gift and it's really focused on making the next step in the interior

life. Franciscans, hopefully, I think are pretty practical. And so it's not just kind of ideas like, okay, we got to pray and we got to live. To save the world. Thank you, Kamelots. Exactly. We got to do this. Sorry. I'm not supposed to spin We got to do the discipleship and we got to like, you know, it's we we're not just trying to throw up empty words, you know So that's been it's been going on now since yeah. Do you you work behind the scenes editing and no no no no So I'm I'm on it. I don't have any technical skills. Yeah. Yeah. I'm the like I can assist Yes, I can but I cannot have no practical. Yes, so technical. So I'm the point guard. I'm like

Essentially the on-site producer. Okay But then we work with spirit juice studios, you know spirit juice studios a little bit I've seen that they produce some of your videos and they are unbelievable. Yeah, they do a ton of a Lot of the best Catholic videos you've seen have been done by them, but their names not necessarily on it that they've produced some of your videos and they are unbelievably good. Yeah, they do a ton of, a lot of the best Catholic videos we've seen have been done by them, but their name's not necessarily on it. It's the stuff for the Knights of Columbus and some We're On Fire stuff they do. But Rob Casmark, who's the starter of it, or the founder of it, is the reason our media is where it is, because he took us on sort of, not just as a passion project, but a passion client. And so we've been working with him for a number of years

and he's been a good friend to me, but they'd handle the logistics of it, the practicals. Now, one more time for the people in the back, what's it called? What should people look up? Poco a poco. Poco a poco. Poco a poco.

Like the word, just the letter A. Yeah, it's Spanish. Yeah. Little by little. Can I tell the story of where that came from? Yes, I'd love to hear it. Because it's everywhere. I have a Poco a Poco shirt on right now, but

when I was in Honduras, we have a medical center there that offers free care of the poor and And again, these are like very very poor people and so they're coming from all over for example I remember one day answering the door at 9 a.m And it's this pregnant woman She's like eight months pregnant who wanted something to eat and she had been walking since 3 in the morning She'd walk six hours to get there because she's gonna go to the hospital to get care like prenatal care for her baby So they're just coming from everywhere, but part of is they spend a long time waiting as well And so one of our brothers who never couldn't really speak Spanish well,

would go and like minister to and encourage the people as they're waiting. And he learned the saying in Spanish because he couldn't really speak Spanish is somos peregrinos, like we are pilgrims, poco a poco, little by little, vamos a llegar, we're gonna make it. And then he'd say, donde? Para eso.

And so it's this, it's, Franciscans have like a pilgrimage spirituality, like this little by little, we're on a journey, we're just gonna keep making, Father Benedict had this thing about we're gonna keep making the, you know, the next best step. And I just, so I love it. And it's the pilgrimage thing, it's the poco a poco thing, but also it's born from this authentic, like, encouragement of the poor thing. And that's just kind of, I think what we're trying to do is we're just, we're all pilgrims on the earth, just trying to little by little make the next best step.

And, but if we keep persevering, you know, bum say a guy, we're gonna make it. That's lovely. Yeah. That's so helpful. It's so encouraging. Yeah. Like the whole like overthrow your life and renew everything. Yeah. It's too encouraging. Yeah. Like the whole like, overthrow your life and renew everything.

It's too exhausting. Yeah. Like I'm too tired. But all right, little by little. And will you come with me? Like that's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and that's, I think that's how it works. You know, we can just, God gives us daily bread. He gives us the grace for the next best step. And yeah, we are where we are. And so we're just gonna move. Another good step, another good step. And I think that's, you know, I think a spirituality gets also flavored

by who you minister to. And we just work with strugglers, you know? And so to give them this 10-part prayer plan and here's the things you're gonna do and whatever like that's just not gonna work for most of the people we work with we're just gonna okay here's where you are what's the next best step you can make you know and

that's a lot of that's so true yeah yeah I'm thinking of the Dominicans who are working maybe with grad students or PhD candidates or whatever yeah or or like you know have their particular charism and thank God for it. Yeah like focus missionaries like focus one of their sort of pillar they have this focus on excellence is one of their pillars and they're working with college students and for them like not being lazy and sloppy and doing things well it makes sense we're just not working with

college students you know it's just very different than the 55 year old crack addict of 25 years. Like excellence for them may not look that excellent. But I think you guys are my favorite religious order. I appreciate that. Because this this and I think it is because of your work with the poor like you guys seem to hold together so beautifully You know both both orthodoxy and then this I feel whenever I'm with a friar I feel like I can't scandalize them. Hmm, and that makes me happy Yeah, I feel like yeah, I can show them anything in my life or in my car Like if you got into my car right now

I've got like workout clothes like spread out over the back to dry so I can work out the knee. It's pretty gross. But I feel like I wouldn't, I mean, you might not like it but I feel like maybe I should be ashamed. I would not think twice. But I feel like you can enter my mess and you're okay with it. And that's not just you, it's like every friar I've met.

And I think that has to do with like living in rough areas and dealing with rough people. And there's like a lightheartedness or a nimbleness or a kind of levity to y'all with a seriousness for your vocation. It's just, yeah. I really think you're my favorite religious order. Can you think of another one?

That's good, I don't know. I have a soft spot for a couple. What? Because there's got to be... Yeah, we'll get to that. But there's got to be something that explains why you all are so similar. And I really think it is just what you said. Like who you minister to affects your character, who you live with. And you can't... It's not like we send you to school for three years and we educate you in a particular way from books.

Yeah. It's something about how you live, how you worship as a community. Y'all are very... Now I'm sure if we line you up in a room, the personalities are diverse, but there's like a similarity. Like if you've met one friar, there's this joke on campus, if you've met one friar, you've met one friar. Because they're all different. But there is something very similar while y'all are very unique. Yeah, and hopefully I can do this in a way that's not like, oh we are great, let me tell you why we're great. But here we go.

Yeah, but here we are. I think there's other people, communities that pray more than us, there's other communities that live in rougher areas, there's other communities that have more poverty I I don't know of other male communities at least that have the commitment to the for that fraternal life that we do like the fraternal life Particularly now it's just really important to us and I think that is like really factors into this is that Like we're just really like there's not a lot of places to hide but also we're together and there's a mutual enrichment and there's a developing the capacity to be seen in your mess which also then helps you when you see other people in their mess and it's just it's just kind of like a I think that is part of again it's if I saw all these people like these

people are all different for so many reasons but but there is this feedback of like people go to confession to a CFR and it feels like a CFR confession, and that's not something that's explicitly talked, that's something that's like received from osmosis, and like there's something to it, and I think it's the prayer, and I think it's the poverty, and I think it's, but I think the communal life, the fraternity is a big part of it. It's where the, there's both the enrichment, but it comes at the cost, you know, like I'm going to be enriched by the gifts of the other people I live with, but I also then have to endure their gaps kind of thing. Yeah, but I don't, I love, it's God's work and that's awesome. Like we are a bunch of sinners in need of a Savior

But I love this community and that's why like my my deepest desire actually these days like what God is calling me to is to Be at the service of the friars. Like I love my brothers. I love the family. I love this order and what God's doing with it. And so You know, I wonder though because I was about to ask you Yeah, how you build brotherhood with each other and how you intentional about that, but I also think like men at battle become brothers more quickly Yeah and if y'all are in the trenches and you're dealing with

crazy situations, dealing with the homeless that probably binds you together in a way that if you were just you know, I don't know writing and studying You know you wouldn't yeah And there's even in our own lives like where we have mission friaries where you're out in another country And you only have five or six guys there the fraternity there is often stronger because you are even more in it together But I do think that's and that's something with have to be careful out like if we If we get soft In mission or in poverty the fraternity will suffer for it and then

our own like the the men will suffer for it, right because part of If you don't have if you're in the fryer and you don't have the internet and you don't have tv like And you want to do something entertaining like you can read a book or you can hang out with the guys. We kind of need each other and it forces us to need each other, but if we start to get lax in that, then we can go and isolate and find our community, fraternity somewhere else. Or if we stop sort of being in, if you will, the fight. When you're in war, you don't get caught up on trivialities And if we're really in it either in prayer and admission

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Often and oh, yeah, there's a lot there's a lot we're a highly caffeinated crew Who's in charge of like turning it on each morning or is it just it's gonna depend on the house There's I in my experience. There's always there's usually been a guy So my house father Lawrence tends to be the guy and he sets up the coffee at night. He's the most eager Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the, um, Posh and See how his father, innocent Angeles were usually on it, but they're the first stop in the morning. So do y'all still do third order? Is it like a third order with the CFRs?

There is, there's the S S F O like there's the traditional sort of big San Francisco one. We're there's nothing public about it or, or like out there. We're experimenting with it. Please do. I think it would be helpful to have more guidance for laity. Yeah. You know, like even things like, you know, technological minimalism

or how do we live poverty, chastity and obedience in our own life? And what are some real practical ways that you know lay people individuals families could do that Yeah cuz You don't want the rules to be so strict that it's not helpful filaity, correct? But you also don't want no guidance like you won't eat people like to be told what to do Yeah, so that we can try to live up to something. Yeah, it would be nice if the seat So if you could please tell them for me, okay, right? That'd be great. You're talking to the right guy

Yeah, I've been the guy in charge of trying it out for the last four years or so. All right, what are we doing? Well, what does it look like? Let's brainstorm, all right? So you have a third- You gotta pray every day. The first, the most important thing we do is pray.

But what do you gotta pray every day? What or when? Yeah, like surely there's some at least one prayer That should unite the third order Probably the prayer that I got 50% correct the beginning of the day the companion's prayer. Companions prayer? That has to be said You didn't know we were gonna do this but companions prayer. All right, that's gonna be done every day. All right, is that it? as far as so we're I like I like being told what to do.

Yeah, I also really like it when I'm being what I'm being told what to do. There's a lot of flex in the joints. Yeah, I'm too hyperactive and add to commit myself to some long series of things every single day. I mean, what's what's prescriptive for us? Like we're not, we're maybe similar to that. What's prescriptive for us is praying the bravery every day, meaning for, and then an hour meditation and our holy hour.

And then we pray the rosary together and have mass. But what you're doing in those prayer times is totally up to the individual. In the like meditation. Yeah. What you're doing in adoration is, or what are we going to do for us laity? So, but that's what I'm saying is like probably like we would say 20 minutes of mental prayer.

The servant John Paul after we write this up. Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. Yeah. All right. 20 minutes of mental prayer. All right. 20 or 30. All right. Depends on how you're now treating this seriously or 30. We've had this conversation before.

You and me or your brothers? Us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The order. No. I was gonna say I don't remember it. And then there's gotta be some sort of monthly... You gotta have some sort of something?

Monthly... Well, I would say you gotta try and have some work with the poor in your life. Ooh, that's good Okay, but we're still in prayer. Should we jump from prayer? Oh, well, so that's like I feel like that's that would be our daily for a lay person Yes, say a prayer do 20 minutes of mental prayer and that can be the rosary that could be an adoration. I like keeping it That's good. Yeah, like I guess if these people are like in like some sort of promises it might be a little bit more but but probably well, hang on why don't the friars isn't the

Isn't the Franciscan rosary different or isn't there a type of rosary the Franciscans also there's the Franciscan crown rosary What is that and why don't you do that we? We're just I just see if our which doesn't which means we're like not great Franciscans We're just we're CFRs which means we're like not great Franciscans Traditionally speaking but this Franciscan crown are the seven joys of Mary. Okay, so it's seven I think it's seven decades of ten cool So it's like the opposite of the seven sorrows of Mary exactly. Okay, exactly are there Franciscans who they wear that particular rosary? Probably, but I've never seen it And where did you know where I'm gonna put you on the spot, but I am never seen it. Yeah, I haven't either. And where did you know where I'm not gonna put you on the spot?

But I am gonna put you on the spot. Where did that originate? I don't know. If you want to know details about Franciscans, at least in my world, ask a Dominican. You know what I mean? Like, probably Gregory Pine knows all of this stuff. He'll explain what you're doing wrong. Yeah.

Wait, why did we break, like, fracture so many times and he would, like, have the answer? Yeah, I'll have to ask him. Yeah. But I feel like, if that's your... Because the Carmelites have a different rosary, eh'll have to ask him. Yeah. But I feel like if that's your, cause the Carmelites have a different rosary, eh? Do they? They have an extra decade. They have like six, also they have,

for every like joyful, sorrowful, glorious, I think they have one or two additional mysteries. Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know that the Franciscan crown was ever like mainstream at the heart of, like a Franciscan life so yeah we just have all right so I go on your third third members third party members are they wearing the towel cross do I have to wear that bloody thing

probably not it's maybe there's way what that is some people so that when I see it I just think this guy's definitely also wearing Birkenstocks. Yes, I wear and like Yeah, maybe Chaco's but anyway, um the the towel cross again, I don't really know the full history of it It's the it's a cross without a corpus across with without the top. Yeah and It looks like the habit in a way, doesn't it? It looks so that Francis had his eyes So yeah, the full the full yeah part of the history The habit is supposed to be in the shape of a cross. So if you put it out, it's the shape of a cross, kind of like a towel cross.

Francis, on his little, we have a manuscript, so something that he wrote, or an autograph, something he wrote that was to Leo, and he signs it with the towel. And I think the idea of it is just like he signed everything with the cross, but it was without the, if you will would the top of the cross But what else can I say something interesting that fits into this place is I feel like I'm crashing sure no no

Is we have? Like so our we don't have a corpus on it Yeah and the the the idea of it is that like you like we provide provide the corpus, like you are the corpus. And so I do think that working that in with the third order could also make sense. That's also the thing that like- You can wear a cross, no corpus.

There's gonna be something that unites everybody. People like a symbol. Correct. They can see another person, like, hey, we're on the- Our lady of Guadalupe is our patroness. So she would have to be worked in somehow. She's gotta be in your house somewhere.

There you go. Right? Yeah. Yeah, OK. Yeah, absolutely. It's so beautiful. That the Alia Guadalupe, my goodness, I love her. All right.

And then you're going to, so is that sufficient for prayer or no? Yeah, this probably doesn't come under prayer, but I feel like there needs to be some connection with the friars once a month like even virtually there needs to be some teaching yeah some you think yeah yeah you could probably yeah all right so so again we we have something that we've been doing like this for about four years so which includes it but again I'm not, because please don't reach out, we can't take anybody, we're not out taking anybody, that's not what's happening, this is not a public

thing, we are not talking about it on this podcast. But we do have like a talk every week from a friar, or every month from a friar, and then we do some sort of like small group together once a month as a friar. So the idea is that, yeah, there's the connection with the community, the sort of the mentoring in the Franciscan spirituality That you're doing your own prayer life But then also that it's a communal experience because for us it only makes sense as like a communal experience Yeah, fraternal, but I love what you said though. There needs to be some contact with the poor Yeah, like so would that be like once a month?

Yeah, yeah You know and it's gonna the hard part about doing stuff with the lady is just like there's just so much more that's out of your control. Like some of them you have kids and now it's like, okay, well, your kid now is going to be your work with the poor for a while. And then we do something called a poverty check. Yeah. So there's about so there would have to be there should be a poverty check. So tell us how it works in your friary and then tell me what it would look like when you came to my house and went through each. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. Kick open the door.

That's I mean, we wouldn't quite do that, but I know what you're saying. But so we do it now once a year and it's a communal. It's both communal and personal. So we have something in our rule which goes through what we call poverty check. And it kind of there's these questions. We do it all together of. So there's like very particular questions about like you know like what is what's animating your like what has brought you sort of deeper to a sense of poverty like do you remember why we're doing it these types of

question and then it's like practical of or like what has encouraged you in your life of poverty lately and then it's like does the friary have any things that they don't need have we the coffee machine shut up brother innocent Stuff like that happens though where it's like well has anybody used this thing for a while, and they're like well No, but you know is that so that that type of stuff really does happen I would love you to put like a candid camera Somewhere in the room, and I want you to sit all the brothers down and explain to them why you feel convicted that we need to just get rid of the coffee machine. I'm sure it would not go over well.

That would not be a long conversation. With great seriousness, you know what I mean? With a tear in your eye. Yeah, I wonder how that would go. Yeah, I'd love to see it. Yeah, we're like, you know what? How about you don't drink it? Okay, that's kind of the yeah. Well, yeah, we're going to keep doing it. Yeah, we're like, you know what? How about you don't drink it? Okay, that's kind of yeah

Yeah, well, yeah, we're gonna keep doing it. Yeah, it's like it's it's it's been it's been worked out You're not gonna get anywhere trying to get coffee out of the friary nor will you you'll be met with compassionate walls You know, I mean they're pat they're padded walls Yeah, they might be padded walls, but you're not gonna move them, you know, I mean, they're pat, they're padded walls. Compassionate. I love it. Yeah, they might be padded walls, but you're not going to move them. You know? I love it. Yeah.

All right. So how does it work in your friary, the poverty check for the individual fryer? So then, then it's you kind of go and there's like some stuff for you to go and reflect on your own again, experience of poverty, dependence on God, divine providence. We use, we have this, the language of the friars are to be content with the minimum necessary, not the maximum allowed. And so is there like, you kind of check your spirit of that? Do you have things that you don't need, et cetera?

I would say for us though, it's something that we, in the friaries I've been on we kind of pay attention to it like it's like we do a official poverty check once a month but it's kind of something that we're always keeping eyes on and having conversations about. So do you have a fellow brother walk into your cell and look around? No. That'd be cool. That would be different like I've heard the companions I think called the companions do

that. Yeah up in Canada maybe that's where I heard it. Yeah I think they do that. We don't do that No, but also everyone kind of knows We help if you edit help if you didn't have like drawers or cupboards Yeah, all your belongings just in a black plastic bag everybody knows everything you have really really cuz

What's what's being an example of something that was superfluous that you had that you like? I gotta get rid of this Would be something so priceless that I had yeah I mean I once had I there's also the the joke of sometimes you do accidentally get poverty checked by a brother When I was when I just moved I'm a basketball player. I used to be a basketball player. So I do have like basketball shoes and I left him in like a communal closet Which I thought is where we were storing shoes and somebody like a poor guy came

To the door and needed something so he gave away my basketball shoes. So so I have had my my basketball shoes poverty checked What is something that I am? Well, it's hard because I Don't like stuff. I don't want stuff. I like to live simply. Yeah, so I'm trying to think of good have I like And again, we're talking about like what's maybe what's been the way don't have house sandals. Yeah, what does that mean? Like like I have one pair of sandals and if I'm gonna wear sandals in the house I'm not gonna wear a different set to like we live very different lives Yeah, I

Think I mean like like things that would be a good, have been good debates are like could we use, have like communal like GPS's? Because we used to have maps then we would print things off maps off on MapQuest and now there's like can we have some communal GPS's and I think the leaning has been towards using them but those would be a hot debate. GPS's and I think the leaning has been towards using them, but those would be a hot debate. Yeah, like cell phones is a hot topic. Definitely laptops would be a hot topic. Like if people need or am I right? Am I right in my understanding that y'all don't have Wi Fi in your friaries?

Correct. Please keep that up. Yes. Never not do that. I feel like if you gave into that, that would be a sign that your order is on the verge of decline. I really do. Yeah. I mean, I don't know anything about you, so forgive me for sure. No, no, no, no, you're great. Yeah. But yeah. And there's something though, right? Like you're saying something like there's something that the people of God want from us. Like there's a certain way in which we offer an encouragement or some sort of hope. And there's a

variety of reasons. But one of those is there's something that's encouraging about us not having Wi-Fi. Well, I said to you before we jump back on that my wife and I are about to get rid of Wi-Fi. And I don't know how long we'll last, but I was really impressed with my wife that she was just as on board as I am. Yep.

Because it just makes the house safer too. Especially now we've got teenagers in the house and just having those smart TVs. It's almost like the more technology a parent lets in is a whole lot more work you have to do. It's actually easier to just not give your children phones. I understand some people can't do that. Maybe their children travel, maybe they work.

I understand that, but I'm just saying like, to open up a can of worms, you then have to deal with it. Whereas to not open it up seems like a big battle, but it's not nearly as much of a battle as then having to deal with it. Yeah, and I've heard people who have, if you will, who've experienced suffered addiction or have sort of addictive personalities

applies to different things and it's like it's easier For example if it's applied to sort of like cupcakes say this dudes like he always binges on whatever he does and he said Why don't why can't you just have one cupcake and it'd be like you don't understand It's actually much easier for me just to have zero than to have one And because once the things once the things in there, there's always, it's always there. I want more and more and more. And I think there's something similar with internet

and it's just, we know it's addictive. It's kind of always calling to us. And if we just like, no, we're not gonna have it here in this space. I do think it can be quite freeing. So I've been doing for the last couple of weeks, I eat about 5 p.m. Uh-huh.

And it's so much easier for me than to try to eat well throughout the day. So I don't eat until 5 p.m. So fast, like black coffee, water, awesome. Yeah, Zevia, no calorie. But then I had my first meal around then, and then it's like a lot easier to moderate what you're gonna eat.

So I'll begin with maybe a steak or something like that, and then I'll snack a little bit. They don't have much time, they need to go to bed. I'm way better personally, it might be a personality thing at the old or nothing. I'm way better than moderation. Moderation exhausts me. I can't keep up.

Whereas if I get rid of my phone for a weekend or a month, that's, I can do that. But if you tell me, well, just use it, but use it appropriately. Like, oh, you don't know me Yeah Yeah And I would I would probably fall into the exact same sort of personality type as you and there is like there can be the push

Back of like well wouldn't it be better if you could just do to have temperance and whatever and like yeah Yeah, but I actually can't you know It's better for me to actually make decisions rooted in reality and my reality is It's easier for me not to eat until five o'clock or whatever it is. Yeah, it'd be great if I could space out the meals and the whatever, whatever, whatever, like all these people do. I can't do that.

This works for me. So I'm gonna do that. So that's helpful. I think I'm a lot more introspective than my wife is, for example. And so she tends to be bothered by a lot less than I'm bothered by She's good for me. Yeah, because I'm quite bothersome But you know, I find myself if I'm on my phone and my kid looks at me. I'm like, I'm a horrible father

Whereas my wife's not a horrible mother. She's actually amazing and she's never been tempted to think that she is. So even if Because I think sometimes she is. So even if, cause I think sometimes she may have said to me like, cause sometimes I'll do is I'll give my phone away for the weekend. And she's like, why don't you just keep it in a drawer? I'm like, oh my gosh, the fact that you asked that question means you don't know me at all. But I think it's not necessarily

that I'm using my phone less than her. I think she should also feel as bad as I do. So I think she has the problem. But she's not as sort of like reflective, which makes her a much easier human being to be around. Yeah, we need all types. All types. I'm trying to think about whether or not

I really wanna say that without any nuance, but you get the sense. I mean, cause you can, we don't really, I don't wanna justify people being like super hyper critical or super not reflective as like, well don't, I don't want to justify people being like super hyper critical or super not reflective as like, well, no, we, you're, you're a beautiful flower in that and we need to be enriched by your whatever. Yeah. But do you all do the temperaments in the friary?

Is that help as you discern who's going to live with each other? That doesn't get factored into that type of thing. But in again, in initial formation, they're gonna go through, Pashon C, they're gonna have a class on the charisms, they're gonna have a class on maybe emotions, emotions might be novice shit, they're gonna have something on the temperaments,

and then they're gonna go through Father Jacques Philippe's, not, yeah, Father Jacques Philippe's. Not this one, probably, but this is the greatest book I've ever written. But that's a great, that's perhaps his most popular. My favorite is, is it, this is such a me thing. I don't remember the name of it at the moment. Father Jacques Philippe, he's only written so many books, hasn't he?

Time for prayer or time for God is one of them. It's the most important thing is basically saying the most, like the best offering you can do is accepting Realities that are happening. There's that whole thing about accepting what's happening and respond While you talk I'm gonna find it I have I want to tell everybody right now to get this book It's called searching for a maintaining piece. I was speaking to a dear friend recently who's got some Teenagers who are driving her nuts and she said that she needs to just play this audio book 24 hours a day, just around the house to remind her. What's the hypothesis of it? Like what's the hypothesis?

I would say is that thesis. It would be something like the I would say I would phrase it this way. He may not, but I would say that our desire for sin or to put it a different way, our passions aggravate the soul. And when we are aggravated, we do not see Christ, nor do we present Christ. We don't perceive God's will as we should. We aggravate everything. It's like you throw a stone into a pond, it no longer reflects the sun. So Christ promised that he would give us a peace, and it wasn't a peace that the world could give. And so there is, he says, actually no reason, no good reason to lose

your peace ever under any circumstance. Think you've just killed someone. Think your child gets hit by a car. Think you've, you know, like he's saying there's actually never a good reason to lose our peace. And yet we live continually agitating ourselves on purpose. And in that state, we cannot perceive the voice of God, we cannot be attentive to the people in front of us, we do not allow ourselves to be interrupted. Yeah, we think that we're God and we have to kind of figure out our teenagers lives for them. Well, we get overly worried when our children are involved in habits that aren't ideal. As opposed to just this. Whereas if we just like surrendered.

Everything would be better. Yeah, like your life would be so much better if you could just go Fiat Volantos tour So what's it when someone says to you you should never? Lose your piece. What's your response to that? I think that's exactly right. Okay Yeah Because we have a father who loves us To say we don't lose our peace doesn't mean we don't have serious responsibilities. It doesn't mean we have a father who loves us. To say we don't lose our peace doesn't mean we don't have serious

responsibilities. It doesn't mean we have, yeah, just of course we should never lose our peace. What does that mean? I think that means to stand in the presence of the good God who is attentive to me and hasn't forgotten about me or the many circumstances of my life. And I can trust him. I'm with my dad kind of thing. Why does that sound. I'm with my dad. Yeah, kind of thing. Why does that does that sound? No, that's great. No, no, no. So but then so how do we apply that to we're talking about the poor homeless guy

on the street and his whole story and trajectory and how how how how do how do we look at him in his situation and as I encounter him? Yeah. Yeah. So how I often encounter him is with anxiety because I don't know what he wants from me. And I also feel bad that I don't want to talk to him, and that agitates me. I don't always.

I may be painting myself too poorly. I do know the poor around town. Yeah, I do the same thing. But I think peacefully is to like accept You know unless he's a threat to me Yeah, like to accept this and to and to be okay with however I feel about it. Yeah to be at peace despite whatever Anxiety is taking place at the top of the water on the surface of the water

Mm-hmm. I think I'm making sense, but I worry that it sounds a little too theoretical. Yeah, that's the hard part though, is it's like, okay, how do you say that and not hurt? How do you say that to somebody who is in the depths, like who's experiencing the most profound pain or loss? Yeah, you probably don't. Sure. I think, well, I mean, think about

it Aquinas has remedies for sorrow. So he's presuming that sorrow is acceptable. Otherwise, he would have been don't do it. Don't don't be sorrowful because that's wrong. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and there's a way to grieve, right? I mean, St. Paul doesn't he say something like we shouldn't grieve like, yeah, those who think they'll never without hope? Yeah. So it's not that we shouldn't grieve. So therefore, grief must be able to exist with peace somehow. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. So stoic that I don't care about you, or I don't care about the events of my life or my loved ones, you know, like if my wife died and then you died and I was more affected by your death than hers,

that would be wrong. Like that would be a sign that I had a bad relationship with my wife maybe. So there's a sense in which I have to be affected by it, but somehow there has to be some kind of Lord Jesus, I surrender everything and everyone to you. I trust in you. You're good, you're good. Even when I don't feel that you're good, you know

Yeah Hmm But I I think what we need to worry about is something way less lofty and That is the agitations we willingly impose upon ourselves daily because we're idiots So it's not the things are things around our control that agitate us, it's the things that are within our control that we continually choose because they agitate us. Like the political pundits talking to me through my iPhone as I drive to get milk from

the store or something. Why am I doing that? Why am I choosing to aggravate the passions? So we don't even have to aggravate the passions right that's so it's not we don't have to worry about the things that God what would I do if my son got killed am I it yeah yeah yeah I am a couple of things are coming to mind I'm are we all that ask questions from behind as well yeah it can can I get a quick some of the father Jacques Philippe book titles? I can also look it up because I have a phone. But also I'm with you. So because it's something that comes up a lot in like a confession type of experience or in like a spiritual direction, pastoral counseling.

And what I always go to is Philippians 4.4 and what was that? I'm ready. In school of the I'm ready got it interior freedom interior freedom is the father shockfully book that it might be it's a top five spiritual book for me probably I should read that I haven't yeah I might even say it's number one but I would hesitate to say that Just in case it's something you're forgetting. Without further thought. Yeah But so Philippians 4, 4 and following says this, Rejoice in the Lord always I say it again rejoice the Lord is at hand have no anxiety about anything but with prayer and supplication make your needs known to God and the peace of God which surpasses all

understanding will keep your heart and mind in Christ Jesus and so again like this is this is scripture, it says like, rejoicing the Lord always, like have no anxiety about anything. It's like, okay, awesome. Like, I want that, you know, I mean, okay, great. Yeah, if that's an option, I'll take it, but how do I, how do I get it? And I think the second part is like the practical, like what do we do with prayer and supplication and thanksgiving? Make your needs known to God and then the peace of God. So it's not just a man made thing, but the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding. So it's bigger than just what makes sense, but surpasses all understanding. It will keep your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.

So for those who experience the frustration and the angst and the fear and the anger and they want peace, but they can't maintain the peace, even though they know they want it and they perhaps should, you know? Okay, like whatever the thing that's taking your peace, like let's bring that to the Lord with prayer and supplication and thanksgiving. And you give him the concern and what you receive back is eventually peace, like his supernatural peace Yeah, I Know in the East they make a big deal about praying without ceasing Uh-huh, which is how the Jesus prayer sort of a rose and Aquinas talks about praying without ceasing

But you know, I've never heard people talk about this command to rejoice in the Lord always Yeah Always I would do that in the Lord always. Yeah. Always? I would do that. Well, Aquinas says of prayer, he says, we can pray, I think the words he used are actually and virtually. So like an actual prayer would be like making a request of God.

And he says, well, this you obviously cannot do at all times because other things are required of you, but we should desire God at all times. We should desire his glory. We should desire his will at all times. And I imagine something similar here with rejoicing. You can't rejoice at all times, but there's got to be some sort of active disposition towards rejoicing. Yeah. I shared, there's three, if you will, points of scripture or the liturgy, whatever

that I come across that like punched me in the gut every time. The first one we already got into was the cross here, like the idea that I as a Franciscan am supposed to supply the corpus. Like when I really think about that versus how I live, it's like, I want it so deeply, but also I'm aware of like where I'm not there. And the other two are with what we're talking about. Pretty much every preface in the mass says, it is truly right and just always and everywhere to give you things Almighty Father Almost every mass it's like and that is really convicting

That's like it is all it's right and just always and everywhere to give you things like there's there's not What so there's not a disclaimer to that yeah, you know, there's not some time in some places where it's not possible, right? You know, and then the second is also in the preface, in the Easter prefaces, where we talk about being overcome with paschal joy. Like that the joy of the resurrection is so overwhelming that are so huge, like it's overwhelming, like we're overcome with paschal joy. And it's like, I want that, but I'm not even close to that. But there is, like, I think the admonition to joy

and to thanksgiving is actually one of the most profound and provocative convicting exhortations of the church when we reconcile that with the suffering that we have in the struggles. I think another word for peace, in the way I'm trying to describe it might be like recollection. Like how much of our waking time do we spend elsewhere? I'm worried about things from the past or in the future.

I'm afraid of things in the past or in the future. I'm not actually present. But since I have to be, that's how I can have peace. And what I said earlier, I think is probably a good idea, too, that this where does St. Paul say something like even if our hearts condemn us, like God is greater than our hearts.

So I think somehow what I said earlier about like encountering the the poor person not wanting to being ashamed that I don't want to like that just agitates it, right? Yeah. Like, and here we're getting dangerously close to like what sounds like modern psychology, but like being okay with however I am right now, because God is greater than my heart.

Yeah. Yeah, and there's a, yeah. Okay, so psychology obviously can go off the deep end in many ways it has, but also there's something human to that grace built on nature, right? in many ways it has, but also there's something human to that grace built on nature, right? And we do have like, there's the idea of like self-knowledge needs to leave to self-acceptance, which leads to self-possession and then to self-gift. So there is a part of like, we need to know ourselves and actually assent to, like, accept the realities.

Like, this is, okay, I, it's better for me if I eat at five o'clock than to others. I just have to accept that reality. Spiritually, we do accept where we are, you know, because it is where you are, but then we do like, it doesn't just mean you're, okay, I'm here and I'm just going to stay here forever. Then we bring that to the Lord and make the adjustments. But there's nothing wrong with actually accepting who we are and where we're at. I'm a big fan of putting the pressure back on the father. Because sometimes I think we have enough pressure.

Yeah. So when it's like, I got to feel peaceful. Yeah. Oh, how do I do that? I don't know how to do that. And now I'm in anxiety land. Oh, yeah. But as opposed to that, like this, like, father, I love you. And I thank you that you love me first. And you've told me that I have to have peace

Yeah, and so I'm gonna need you to do that. Yep. Amen. Yeah And that's 100% we were talking about like going back that we need to bring that back well meaning like we talked about how like we're doing the charismatic thing and the other thing if like like what we need to believe that God like I can give God my points of concern anxiety and actually believe that he can give me peace. Like he like that I can say that you can say that prayer and actually expect something to happen. Yeah, exactly. That's right. One thing we haven't talked about is in this third rule. Yes.

What's it called? Third rule, the third order. Third order is what I meant. Sorry. Yeah. Is okay. So what are a list of requirements? Okay. So if in, you know, y'all wear the habit, y'all sleep on a mattress on the floor. Like there are certain requirements, right? How you live out poverty. I feel like there should be certain requirements for the people in this third order. That's just spitball. But OK, so here's the initial question I have to ask. What if the one member of a marriage is in it and the other is not?

Well, then that can be part of what he sacrifices. In what sense? Well, maybe there's things that he gives up that she doesn't. Right. And the awkwardness of that is something that he submits himself to as part of the Lord's plan for his sanctification. So if he decides, I don't watch movies anymore, like something that would be perceived radically, if his wife wants to watch a movie with him, he watches the movie with her.

And he doesn't make her feel bad about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would start where I so like the poverty check is kind of if you will but yeah the tool we present you've clearly thought about this more which allows the person to sort of apply it to their own life. Yeah a second thing I think that is really like an easy thing to apply is like we allowing like when you feast and fast to be directed by the liturgical calendar Yeah, I think that that's an expression of practice of poverty Yeah, that also gives meaning direction and roots your day your week in the liturgy I think that would make sense for laypeople. So it's like okay desserts on Sunday

Yeah, he says, you know, so it can So it can be very close to what we do, which would be, you know, like we don't eat meat Wednesdays and Fridays. Maybe that would be something, or we don't eat desserts except for feast days and celebrities. And then we have like beer and wine or other drinks would be those days as well.

That would, I think, be applicable for the lay state. What I wanna do though is not like, I wanna spit ball ideas that clearly aren't gonna work. Okay, great. Let's just open it up. Yeah. Like here's one thing I remember. No air conditioning, go ahead.

Yeah, forget about it. Let's go back to your idea. No air conditioning, wow. Yeah, that's gonna be actually impossible for some people. Like in Florida, maybe not impossible, but pretty bloody close. I had a priest friend who when he was given a new car would Intentionally scratch it or put a dent in it. Yeah, I like that. I

Okay There's a there's like hey, honey. Look what I've done. Yeah, I don't love that. I don't love that There's a bit of an operating principle of don't be weird. Okay, and that we used to do that some of our guys used to do that. Okay. I've heard a story Yeah, speaking of and we can get back to this Speaking of like how people want to imitate Francis. Yeah, but just if you could please calm down I heard that in the initial stages of the friars getting together the CFRs You know, they had a common sea weekend and a fella came to prayer completely naked. He was in his boxers.

Oh. But yes, other than that. Well, it's not, it's not any, I mean, it's a bit better. It's a bit better, it's a bit better, but not even in the ballpark of good. Yeah, yeah, so that's real. That happened. So that wasn't great. I would have been way more impressed if he was naked. Brothers! You can just see me being like, really enthusiastic. Let's tear down these walls and embrace.

Please leave, Jeff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Jeff, it was good to know you. And to your point about not being weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a lot of that. I mean, I've done a lot of that.

But yeah, I feel like, cause you don't want to be too artificial. So scratching the car, tell me about that. That's so like, you're not vain or you're not worried about it. Well, I've never done this. So it was, I think the idea would be that you don't take pride in this thing

that you've been given. And it's a way not to be overly concerned Anyway, all right. Okay. Well forget that one But it's true also as well it be and again I don't think we want to do that But it is really freeing when you don't you're no longer worried about if your car gets a little bump or dent or something like that I mean, I love my parents. They were very good parents, but they were like overly worried. Yeah Oh a severe mercy. I just read it last night. Oh, a severe mercy. Sheldon Ben Auken's book.

Sheldon Ben Auken, yeah, they would put dents in the hood of their new cars. Okay. Yeah. And you think he's weird. That's why I said it's, I think it's leaning. It's leaning. Yeah. Well, how about this? Like it might be acceptable if you're doing it as a personal thing with your

wife and you're not it as a personal thing with your wife and you're not bragging about it. It's another thing to demand that every member of the third order. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So what would be some other things?

I mean, certainly relationship to technology has to be on there. Okay. Now how do you do that? Because everyone's trying to do that. Everyone's coming out with new dumb phones and none of them are acceptable to people because the world is changing.

This is what's so difficult. I was in Amsterdam airport and I couldn't order except through a QR code. Yeah. And that made me very frustrated. Yeah. I lost my peace. Yeah.

You know, if we're looking, I lost my peace just for a little bit. I started shouting, drinking heavily. Uh-huh. Yeah, you know if we're if we're looking I lost my piece just Shouting drinking heavily There's a there's a place to it, but if we're looking for Answers outside. We're not gonna find the answer So meaning like if we think that our we're gonna have right relationship with technology by the new smartphone or dumb phone or whatever Yeah, it's never totally actually gonna work until we make the interior Adjustment of like no, I'm going to freely embrace not have

I'm gonna be inconvenienced by the fact I'm not gonna have email on me all the time or whatever like it's kind of in the culture now Yeah, and so the the devices can be helpful, especially for people in different phases and ages But in general in life if you think you're gonna struggling, I feel like you've got to be struggling. Even if the way I sort of put a limit on my technology is different to how you do, I feel like come on. I feel like everyone watching this, if I said to you, I'm going to put everyone on the spot here. If I was to say to you, how is your use of technology different than your atheist neighbor? The answer should be more than I try not to look at porn.

But my fear is that's really the only difference. So I feel like it should be like, how do you use your technology different? Yeah. Yeah. Frank Sheet has the comment about how we don't so much have Catholic minds, but worldly minds with Catholic patches. Have you heard that before? Yeah, I'll just say that. So, but also I think like we don't so much have like, if you will,

Catholic cultures as much as like a worldly culture with Catholic patches. And to get to the point, like we, there should be something deeply foundationally different about how we engage with the world, including technology, if we are Catholic. And it shouldn't just be again, like I don't look at pornography or whatever, you know? Like, yeah, you shouldn't, but also there should be a whole, really a whole different worldview and relationship to this type of stuff. Frank Sheed's an Australian.

So throw that out there. Your welcome world. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. He's got this great line about sex. He says, Yeah, he's got this great line about sex. He says He says modern man practically never thinks about sex

He dreams about it. He jokes about it. He makes you know, mm-hmm, but these are very different activities to thinking about yeah I like that a lot. Yeah That's really convicting and like frightening to me that line that you just said. Yeah Yeah, and I think the point of the thing like a point of reflection is like what are the things That you celebrate. What are the things you orient your life around? The ones the immediate ones I go to is like and this is hard but like it's friday for you Mostly like tgif it's the weekend or is it the day in which you commemorate the Lord's passion like what actually do you experience Friday as because I like if it's just the weekend and it's not the day in which I remember

the Lord's death for me there's something there's something off there yeah this reminds me of a line from that old TV series Friends, which of course was a horrible show in many respects, but Joey makes the joke because he learns this woman doesn't have a television. And he's like, what's all your furniture pointed at? And that's funny. That is very funny. Very funny. He can't conceive how else a living room could be oriented. And what you're saying is how are our lives oriented? Like what are they directed toward? Yeah.

What do we celebrate? What do we? Yeah. What do we spend our money on? What do we get dressed up for? All of these things are external sort of manifestations of our interior values. Yeah.

I remember it hitting me too. I was driving in the Bronx and just going by, like the Yankees were playing. So you see everyone going, filing into the Yankee game. They're all wearing the uniform. They're all spending the money, buying the tickets, getting the hot dog. And it's just like, it's very interesting.

Like we're made to celebrate and to do something and to like, yeah, to spend resources in this on a thing. And you could see where it's like it's it's worldly. It's like so easy to put that into the Yankees or whatever, versus like the contrast of that versus how people are coming to mass or not going to mass kind of thing. What's difficult, difficult about what we're saying here is we're not condemning the Yankee game. Correct.

That's what's so hard, right? Because we're getting back to the inner disposition. Yeah. And this gets back to what we were saying here is we're not condemning the Yankee game. Correct. That's what's so hard, right? Because we're getting back to the inner disposition. And this gets back to what we were talking about earlier. If it was just about externals, we could crush it. I've said this before, that if the Lord appeared to me now and said, Matthew, here's how you will be saved. I want you to Bible in a year. I want you to crush that every year from now on.

Every single day, you've got to be committed to it. Yes, Father. All right. I also want you to pray the rosary every day. And that's it. You do those things and you'll be saved. Oh freak. Yes. Got it. I'll crush that. Yeah. But if the father said to me, don't cause any unnecessary grief to your family. Yeah. I'd be like, Oh well, I'm screwed. I can't do that. So again, there's those like externals are kind of easy to manage and order and control, but that internal is what makes it so difficult Because if it was so simple as the Yankees are evil don't go to baseball games Christians don't do that

Ah easy, but like how to enjoy legitimate pleasures legitimately. Mm-hmm Yeah, and yeah, sorry if I derailed you there No, but I 100% get what you're saying and agree with it. And what's, yeah, what's hard though is it actually, if you were the object of the act, the external can look the same, but why you're doing it, how you're doing it, all that sort of stuff can look different. Yeah, I mean, one obvious example is in one scenario,

I'm leaving my wife and three kids at home, even though I've been working all week and she needs a hand and I'm off with the boys. And another example is I'm taking my my nine-year-old boy to a Yankees game to teach him about this beautiful American pastime. Yeah, so even that's kind of, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And we can, you can even, like there's a, there's a, an early Franciscan who he was, he was the superior of a house and he wanted, so he was asking to go for permission to go be a hermit. And I don't know if it was Saint Francis, whoever the the superior was, say, no, like, stay in the hermit, stay, stay with the brothers and it'll be better than a hermitage.

And the idea of like, externally, it was looking like he wanted to go and pray more. Internally, really what he was doing was running and hiding from the harder thing. And so it's like, so like, some guys are called to be hermits and they can do it in a really good and healthy and well-disernt way that's totally free and not running. Some people might run to that fear-driven like this guy was trying to do. And I just use that to give an example of how the external could look the same and one is doing it for good reasons, one's doing it for not good reasons. Somebody might come to religious life to make a free gift of

themselves to be consecrated to God, or some might be trying to do it because they're hurt and afraid of marriage. And so we have to kind of pass that out. How do we encounter how far we are without becoming discouraged? One of the things I love about Teresa Luzier is it never occurred to her to become discouraged because she was so confident in the Father. She compared herself to a grain of sand being trodden underfoot next to a gigantic mountain, which were the saints. But I mean, it sounds like she didn't lose her confidence.

She was like, all right, then you're gonna have to be an elevator. I love the confidence. Likewise, when you're saying these things about like, what do you get dressed up for? What's your life oriented towards? How is your family different? There was this movement, this subtle movement within me, as you said, that of shame,

because I thought of the ways I feel like in light of what you just said. I'm failing as a father and like how my family isn't as like super Catholic as it should be. And like really, like really not not like I'm judging myself too harshly, like, no, no, there, there's some ways I could have done better. But now things have been set in motion and some kids are actually quite older now and so that can't be undone. You know?

And I'm sure all of us, if we're listening, have something like that where it's like, I see what's asked of me and I see where I'm at and it's very different. How does one not lose courage, not lose confidence? It's a similar movement, I think, to what we do with, like, when I was talking about with the poor at the door and saying, like, okay, Lord, like, Father, you have to take care of them.

Like, I can't do this right now. Or I might have encounters with people and they're, like, imperfect. Okay, Lord, like, that wasn't great. I'm going to need you to just kind of clean up the mess. And I think that's a similar movement with our families, our kids. All right You did what you you could do and you got to where you could be and there's no change in that and so it's like all right Like you're participating in his fatherhood of your kids and Lord. I gotta I need you to take care of it

I need you to love them. I need you to if you will make up for whatever I was left lacking and And to actually believe that that is like a sufficient response to our imperfections and so I think it's the movement is always it's like it's just not about us and it's about him and him if you will if you will multiplying the or feeding the four or five thousand with the lows and fishes you know like I did my part it was imperfect imperfect. You knew it was going to be imperfect, be honest, Lord. And so I'm going to trust that you can sort of. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. Make up for what I've done poor today, Lord. And I think that's that that flippings for foreign practice.

Okay. I'm worried about my kids. I'm worried about my imperfections, but not you. So we're getting back to this. Like, how does one maintain peace? And I think that's got to be part of it. It's confidence in the good father who's so present and capable. Because if he doesn't exist, like if he just exists as like the first mover, but he doesn't exist as like, hasn't taken his eyes off of me since the moment of my conception,

if he doesn't exist in that way, then when I consider the ways I've failed as a father, then I'm right to be discouraged. And that discouraged will lead to a lack of peace. Or I just pretend that what I did was actually great and it's everyone else's fault. But to be able to like own my failures without losing peace, I think that requires a, I trust in you.

Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, God's not shocked by your imperfections. Oh, say it again. You know, it's like he yeah, he knows you and he's like, Oh, you did an imperfect job. I everything is unraveling. There's no way to get this back on track. We're surprised. What a surprise. Because all the other men and women who have done this have done perfectly throughout. You know, I mean, like that's part of it. It's like, that's so beautiful. Yeah. And that translates to, yeah, I had an experience, I just experienced that a lot as a priest. You just, I'm just very in touch with how not perfect I am and not the most talented or skilled or whatever, whatever, whatever.

And so there's just a lot of, all right, Lord well you're in you called me you knew who I was when you called me and but I also trust that you're gonna you're gonna use me as you can and kind of be able to cover what I've where I've fallen short you know but yeah we're we're we're fresher to buy scandalized by surprised by in a certain sense are failing to limitations and whatever and it's just like God's not like what what you do? Yeah, he's just not shocked by it I saw a great meme which I'm sure you may have heard of by now. It says When the Lord placed a calling on your life he factored in your stupidity. Yeah 100%

Yeah Most like a helpful thing I've ever heard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I know it's like joking, but also it's true. Theologically accurate. Yeah. Yeah.

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Michael's Lent. That's Exodus 90 dot com slash Matt to join us for St. Michael's Lent happening now on the Exodus 90 app. It's not too late to join. OK, I have a question for you, I'm afraid it's gonna sound confrontational or it might put you in an awkward position. But I'm gonna ask you anyway because I think you're the kind of guy who's aware of himself.

I love that you're going for the water. I feel like you're aware of yourself enough that this won't feel threatening. What's it like being the other priest next to Father Mike Schmitz? Speaking of, like, here's what I got. And the same thing's true of me. Like, how do you explain the fact that

there are other Catholic YouTube channels that have way more subscribers and way more viewers than you? So I'm not it's. Yeah. Like, how do you be the guy next to superhero Father Mike Schmitz? Yeah. Gorgeous and brilliant and entertaining and excellent.

You're also those things to a degree, but like you're also not Father Mike Schmidt. Yeah, and he's also not you, but you you get the point. Yeah, 100%. And yeah, and I I'm grateful you asked the question and it's definitely like an insider question in so far as like I'm sure life experiences have happened that make you aware that that's even a question to ask. Yeah, you know, and so it is it's like It is just to kind of paint the picture of the reality. Like, so I'm on Ascension Presents where I have a video come out every, every Monday. Father Mike has a video come out every Wednesday. And if you like, you can see very concretely, I get 10,000 or

15,000 views and he gets 80,000 and then the next week he gets 300,000 and or I was given a talk at seek and it was like Two years in a row and it was like one time my room was filled up and they're like just one of my friends Came out to me very sweetly and said just so you know This is only full because they closed father Mike's talk early and then the next year they didn't close it early and mine was like half as full or whatever it was. And so part of it is just honoring and reverencing, if you will, like the unique man and gifts that Father Mike has, both natural and supernatural. And just like, I don't know his work ethic but I

suppose he has a work ethic that's just different than mine. And you know like LeBron James became LeBron James not just because he was uniquely talented but also he like did the work. And some people just were never, I was never, I was never going to be LeBron James and I was never going to be Father Mike Schmitz, you know? But at the same time, like I have a diff, I trust that God has called me and done something uniquely and that they're, it's helping people in a different way. Of course. helping people in a different way and and and and and maybe different people because we're just doing different things but um yeah and and I don't yeah

and it's funny though because it is important because like sometimes usually I get the opposite question of like oh how do you deal with being a popular YouTube priest or whatever but you're always but then you're how life works in this or you're always aware of like you're, how life works in this, you're always aware of like, well, I'm a fraction of popular as that guy, and I want to, yeah, there's a part of us that wants to be.

Whether you have a YouTube channel or you don't, if you don't understand the experience that me and Father are talking about right now, like, you're not aware of anything going on. Sure, yeah. Because this is the human experience, right? Yeah, and so at the end of the day, it's just like, I'm not, and so at the end of the day. It's just like I'm not and

Even to keep going deeper Just the whole YouTube thing like with the podcast and The the YouTube video that's like an hour and a half of my week My life is just not invested in that and you know the thing that I care about is really like the... and similar, I'm sure, like with your kids. Like, I care about loving my brothers well and praying well, and I care about like people coming... I do a lot with like focused missionaries, and I love the way in which I get to like be with them and

walk with them and care for them. Like, that's the stuff I care about. I don't care about YouTube views or popularity, the stuff I care about. I don't care about YouTube views or popularity and hopefully I'd be willing to let that go at any moment. But it is a thing that's like, I like to joke about it though. Well I think one thing that's deceptive about YouTube numbers is, you know, I might do a video that has 5,000 and another time something has 100,000. But the 100,000 one could, and I'm talking about me now, not Ascension, could be far less impactful.

And you look at 5,000, you know, 5,000. What if three people actually watch that and it like, help them? Like numbers are deceptive. Actually was listening to one of your videos in Romania. Okay. Recently, and it was so helpful to me. I made my son watch it.

I wonder how much I remember of it. You said, hopefully you can remember this, because I don't remember the full context of the video, just that it was really helpful to me. I think you were talking about like the messaging, like we walk around and you said this one line, you're like, you're just trying to live your life. Yeah.

Like you've got like billboards and, do you know what I'm referring to? As far as just like the stuff That's always like I'm sure part of it. Yeah, actually now that you say that I know Zach we're talking about I did a little series running through the experience like kind of pulling from the Good Samaritan and Like there's like the Good Samaritan comes and he meets this guy who's beat up on the road And there's how so many of us are beat up on the road Yes, and I think part of it is there's it is there's just men and women are just,

I think it is with women maybe more, you're just constantly against your will being shown what you're not and being compared and being sort of pitted against people who have budgets and designers and all of this and plastic surgeons and they're and you're being forced to compete against them and you're never supposed to compete against them or to be compared to them or to whatever you know and just how that can leave people really like beat up and not feeling not liking what they see in the mirror and not and not being able to accept when God says like

I created you good It becomes really hard to say amen to that. I believe that because of all this stuff that you've grown up with Yeah, is that ring a bell? That is exactly it. It was so moving to me. I made Liam my son watch it Yeah, but yeah, just this idea that like we keep going. I'm not as smart as him. It's funny how like intelligence seems to be the one thing people are reluctant to give up. You know, like it's pretty obvious that I'm not as attractive as a lot of people. That's kind of objective.

I can't really argue with that. But I think a lot of people are very reluctant to give up the idea that they're not as smart as somebody else, you know? Or we'll go, yes, but it's emotional intelligence. Or we come up with these other ways of making sure that we're competing with everybody else, but we're that beautiful realization,

where it's like, I could go to school for the next 10 years and I still wouldn't be anywhere close to whatever. Yeah. So there's a, yeah. So, but this idea that I've got to earn love, and it's so cliche that we think that we've already overcome whatever. Yeah. So there's a, yeah. So, but this idea that I've got to earn love and it's so cliche that we think that we've already overcome it. Yeah. Like just because you know the cliche doesn't mean you've dealt with it.

I'm not as attractive, not as smart, not as rich, not as all these things. How did you feel doing stuff with Father Gregory Pined? Yeah, actually really good. Yeah. I like the like the tables. You know, when I started pints with Aquinas, I think there was this mask and this fear that I'd be exposed, you know, because I'm not, I'm not that smart actually. Like I think I'm insightful. I think I can talk to people in an interesting way, but you know, now I'm doing this podcast about

Thomas Aquinas and crap, I better pretend to know a few things. So there was definitely some of that in the beginning. And I think when it was exposed that I didn't actually know a lot of things I was talking about, it was embarrassing and hurt. But I got over that somewhat quickly. Yeah. And I think it's just gradually like, I can honestly say I am just so grateful for how brilliant Father Pine is and I don't. Yeah. Yeah. Because when people talk about being converted by pints, a lot of people do that. A lot of people message me and email me and tell me, but it's you they're talking about. Like it's

like, I mean, it's both of us, but it's the beautiful, brilliant, awesome guests who have all these different things to talk about that have really moved them. Yeah. This is just the kind of this whole room and this YouTube thing is just a sort of delivery method. Yeah. Yeah. I but yeah. And of course, yeah, somebody though had to put it together and put it together. You know, I often think of with like this, the the the father throws the son for the prodigal son when he returns home. Like somebody had to throw the party, you know, somebody had to organize the musician and the food and all that. But kind of related

to this is I was really struck recently with there's the scripture about when Saul gets mad at King David, because they, you know, they used to sing, they were singing the song about how David slew the ten thousands and, yous and Saul slew the thousand. And there's just this really tangible human experience of like, he was the king. He's the king, he slew the thousands, but there's one person now who has something more than him and how he like couldn't reconcile that.

And that just sort of threw him for a loop. And I just think that's part of the human experience we have to be okay with is like, we're gonna have certain things and we might do really great and have our thing and there's going to be somebody else who's better than us or maybe at one point, you know, at one point I have 10,000 viewers and then in three years I'll have 2,000 people watching a video and it's like, am I going to be able to allow life to happen? And I just think that's just such a human thing. Like we want, we want to be the best at everything and as good as we've always been when you're young you're under the illusion that that's still

possible sure yeah Yeah, someone said to me though that like once you're 30 like he said the first 30 years of figuring out the hand you've been dealt Yeah, and the rest of your life is learning how to play that hand because there's nothing else coming. This is all you got Yeah, yeah to back up and also to be, the reason that I'm here on the podcast because of all the Mike Schmitz, you know, I mean, like the reason that I have any audience is because I get I get to be at his room, you know? So like, I'm OK with that as well. Yeah, I feel bad for him because he's so good and beautiful and kind and sincere.

My wife is she goes into like assassin mode if she hears someone criticize him. She'll just like rip their face off gently and beautifully in a way that they can't like correct her. There is this saying in Australia, it's called tall poppy syndrome. Of course, yeah. You have that saying here?

I know the saying, yeah. Where you seek to tear down people who are better than you or bigger than you or, you know. So like if someone gets too rich or too handsome or too beautiful or too whatever, it's like we have to bring them down. And you see, I see that. I absolutely see that.

I mean, more than not, I actually see the opposite. I see people rejoicing in his gifts in the church. I really do. But you'll hear people like who think it's okay just to, you know, say something like, what have you done? Who the hell do you think you are? And we do this a lot. I don't know if it's that we think somehow implicitly

that unless something is the answer to everything, it's not allowed to be the answer to anything. Tell me about that. Like unless Bishop Barron can like solve this thing, then he's not allowed to have any solution to anything. You know, it's like, yeah, but isn't he good at? Yeah, but what about, or Schmitz or Lifeteen or Pines or anything? It's like, there's a lot of problems in the church and you need to be addressing all of

them. And if you're not, then you may as well not be a solution to anything. It's like there's a lot of problems in the church and you need to be addressing all of them and if you're not then you may as well not be a solution to anything. It's like, well hang on, like can't Bishop Barron be a solution to some things? Is that okay? No. That's unreasonable. Yeah, and that's inconsistent I think with reason and I think it also just goes against actually our Catholic understanding of even the image of being a body. Like you just can't, not everyone can do everything. Yeah. And you can't be expected for everyone to do everything. Yeah. Yeah. Why do we do that? Yeah, the Dominicans. Yeah, but yeah. Why do we do that? Maybe it's because I don't know. Maybe it's just us talking and realizing things that are interesting.

Yeah, like we as Franciscans have felt like, the CFR has felt called like serving the poor in like a relational way. There's people who need to serve the poor by figuring out the right policy and getting the right laws is and all that sort of Stuff and and does that need to happen is that consistent with loving and serving the poor? Yeah, is that our part to play? No, and so we're not gonna be super like active and sort of politics and lobbying and all that sort of stuff Just cuz that's not our part to play in it and that's okay You know, I mean we can't we can't do everything even with serving and loving the poor, you know and lobbying and all that sort of stuff. Just because that's not our part to play in it, and that's okay. You know what I mean?

We can't do everything even with serving and loving the poor, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you remember, but I was on Ascension before you were. You were not on it before, were you on it before me? I thought so, maybe it was after.

We were on it at the same time at some point. No, I'm pretty sure I was the first person after Schmitz maybe you were so I know firsthand what it's like Maybe it's like I'm like man. They get so many views Yeah, and then I did a video and I got like five views and like that's fine It's the jawline. I like the jawline No, I thought it was but maybe not maybe I was the first lay person they had on My my history, remember Maria? Yeah, of course.

I don't think she works for me anymore, but she's- Maria Mitchell. I remember thinking, you're one of my favorite people. She was so beautiful. I'm sure she still is. They are good people. They are wholesome and genuine and faithful people over there in Ascension.

And yeah. Think of the good they're doing. I was talking to Scott Hahn about this. He was sitting with me yesterday. We were talking about how much good is taking place in the church today. So much good. Yeah. Like people used to say in the 90s that Catholics don't know the Bible. Yeah, good luck saying that now that we have the number one prayer app and the number one Bible study and the number one Bible podcast. Like you can't really say that anymore. We also have the number one Bible podcast. You can't really say that anymore. We also have the number one religious network in the world, EWTN.

We have like Bishop Barron crushed on it. We have, there's so many good things happening in the church right now. And praise God. Yeah, the Eucharistic Congress, the Sikh conferences. And yet we just, we're all little, we like to pick holes in things. You know? Yeah. Yeah and I think this is related. There's, it's one of the most striking if you will, like parts of the rule of St. Francis. St. Francis rules like super short. And he has this line in there that the brothers are not to look

down upon those who like eat rich food and wear fine clothes and I just it's like so like it's like it just stands out like that's very particular and what's going on there And I think part of it is just this understanding that like as a Franciscan you've been receiving a particular gift or charism conviction clarity about poverty that hasn't been given to others and so there is a part of being grateful for what you've been given and been given to others. And so there is a part of being grateful for what you've been given and remaining there, and then enriching the others, but not sort of just seeing where they're not on your level and being angry about it. And I think part of this whole thing of like, yeah, a movement to sort of gratitude, a movement to sort of focus on what has God

called you to, being faithful, being a good steward to that, and coming from it like, I believe what I believe about poverty or about the Lord, about prayer, because it's a gift given to me. And if I can receive it as a gift that He hasn't, then an understanding like, He hasn't given it in the same way to these other people. I didn't merit this, He gave it to me. And I think that's just helpful, because there is that human tension towards, again, to criticism, to focusing on the negative, the critical, the broken, the whatever. And I think that's a strategy of the devil, and it takes our eyes off of God and his goodness, ultimately. And we might be well-intentioned in it, but if we stay there, or we don't go there

with the Lord, he's got our eyes off the Lord, and that's when we're vulnerable. So I think, yeah, being aware of and not giving into, or just ascending into this critical, negative approach to life, I think is important. How do you come up with your video titles, subjects? So- Do you record them like once a month and four in a row sort of thing? For Ascension?

For Ascension, there's not a super strict sort of rhythm. I kind of, I have a few written out. I prepare talks or videos, whatever. I like slow cook kind of, I have a few written out. I prepare talks or videos, whatever, like slow cook them. I like have a crock pot. So I have a few things and I slowly think about them. And so that's always kind of happening. And at some point I'll just record it and send it in. But it is, it is something that usually comes from something that's some sort of ministry thing that comes up, some sort of something I read, whatever, there's like, it just kind of happens. My, what I'm strong at is creating ideas

and like thinking of like, oh, here'd be a good thing to do. So for me, the idea thing comes somewhat naturally. Some of like the deep study would be a place where I would struggle. Yeah. Yeah. But God's been blessing it and it's been going. It's been going well. What's the next big project or the next big thing? The next big thing of the friars.

The next big thing. I can talk about a few things. The very big. There's one big thing coming up that I asked if I could talk about. And I was told no. You're sending brothers to Australia. Brothers are going to Australia. So good. Do you want us to go to Perth or Sydney or anywhere? I just want you to go there. We need you. We need Americans to evangelize the world again,

to re-evangelize the world. Americans are awesome. And they're crushing it. And all those things I just mentioned, hello, Baron, Schmitz, you, Ascension, me. I mean, I don't mean to say that. But like, Pints is doing a lot of good work. I'm grateful for it.

Like I know that there's good things happening in the rest of the world. It's just, it's kind of drowned out by the amazing, I take myself out there. You know, like, yeah, everywhere I go, Baron, Schmitz, Trent Horn. Like good luck debating Trent Horn and coming out. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, like, and I know we're on the same page with this. So

this isn't, this is just saying it because I need to say it is like the fuel, the, if you will, we get to be, we're the tip of the spear or whatever, or we're the thing that gets seen. But yeah, the grace of it comes from all of the hidden sacrifices by so many people. I know it's spot on because when someone write to me and say like, I converted because of pious, like that's the language they use, but I know that's not exactly what they mean. Because if they lived in a town

where there was no good Catholics and no good priests, yeah, chances are they wouldn't be a Catholic right now. It's because people did the hard work of living with them and walking with them and answering their questions. Yeah, down in Honduras, where we live now, originally, like what'd I say, 40 years ago, there was nothing there, nothing, nothing, nothing there. And a group of poor clerics came and had their convent

and they used to live there and prayed and lived their sacrifice. And now, like, then 20 years later, like the friars moved in, there's a huge apostolic center, there's a boys orphanage right next to them, there's a home for those with physical disabilities right next to them, our hospitals right across the street that gives free care to the poorest of the poor. And you see it all and it's like all happened in this area right around

this convent and you just can't help but say, okay, well, this is the fruit. The ones who sort of tilled the ground were these, you know, these sisters. And I just think that's tilled the ground were these sisters. And I just think that's true. Why was I saying that? I think my point is just I love Americans. And I love the kind of entrepreneurial ship of a Yankees. And I just freaking love Americans. I married one.

That's how much I love them. I don't know that Americans have stuff to learn and there's whatever, but Americans, you're helping the world so much. So I appreciate that. That's how I said this. That's why I said this, because because Australians like we all we all are benefiting from Americans like the Dominicans.

I think the Nashville Dominicans are now down in Australia. If I'm not mistaken, or maybe it was a different branch of the Dominican sisters. But yeah, so come to Australia. All right. All right. You let them know. OK. All right. Along with the third order, figure it out. And we're come to Australia. All right. All right, you let them know. Okay, all right. Along with the third order stuff. We got the third order figured out and we're going to Australia.

But you said you're not allowed to talk about some. Well, the big one. What's the thing you're not allowed to talk about? But there's one that I want, I'll mention, and then one that I'm like super, super excited about. The father book came out, and this actually, I do feel, it came out Ash Wednesday, and it was kind of funny how it came out,

because it came out early. Can I tell that story? Of course. I have sort of organically become the Mark Wahlberg Ash Wednesday priest. Okay. What does that mean? That means they, for the last couple years with Hallow, with Mark, and then this year with Jonathan Rumi, they've done like a Lenten prayer thing. Yeah. This year, right, they did with God in Russia, the Father Chiswick book. Yeah. But they kind of do press on Ash Wednesday, and they go on like Good Morning America or whatever.

Yeah. But because it's an early thing, they have to have mass before. Okay. So I have gone the last two years, celebrated mass for them, and given them their ashes. And this year, I had, the book wasn't published. It wasn't supposed to come out for another month or so. But I brought a few copies and after mass I said, hey, just so you know, I got a new book out there if anybody wants it.

And so what Mark and Jonathan did, and I think it's a great testament actually, I take it like as a great testament to like Mark Wahlberg was they did like a little Instagram video talking about what they were going to be doing, but both of them are just holding the book like this. Like trying to show it or just? Yeah, like very distinctly. They're not talking about it, but they're just holding the book.

And you know, that reel gets like 10 million views or something like that. Oh my God. I feel, you know, as Mark being like, okay, I'll throw this guy a bone and help him out. That's nice. Yeah. But I saw that and I was like, just so you know, this just happened. If we want to make, you know, the book available. So, um, so how quickly before their video and it hitting the press, they, so we were already like heading that direction. So they just made the store alive. Like that day they were able to do it. That's wonderful.

You know, um, but I was doing a lot with that and I'm super excited about that. But the new thing is we have this, like we... Yeah, what is this? We have a prayer journal. We did a double thing. Friars. Oh! So we did a, do you know the Monk Manual? Stop it, yeah.

So we did a collab with the Monk Manual. So it's like a CFR Monk Manual. Give us a look. What are the difference between these two? Well this is- Oh, I know the Monk Manual. Yeah, yeah, so this is the Monk Manual. They're kind of...

So they all collaborate with, Brother Isaiah is his Isaiah's stage name, his music name still, his album Mysteries and Medicines. And there's this, again, this journey, this pilgrimage theme. And the idea of these is that they're kind of ongoing tools for the journey, where the Monk Manual, it touches on some of the spiritual things, but it's very much much into it's allowing you to do They have this the saying of like being and doing which I love because sometimes we can put being and doing and competition But like we have to do both and so it's a way to kind of live life in a healthy way in an integrated way Prioritizing what you need to prioritize being intentional which I love but then this is a prayer journal and all this is the Generally the women's one it's got our Lady Guadalupe colors we'll have a black one and you can give it

so you can take a look at it no I'm gonna take it okay great no I'm just checking but I'll explain it is I don't know so it's it's pretty it's pretty simple but can I read these out loud for people so they know what it is or do you want to just discuss let me let me give the, if you will, the structure and then you can go into the specifics. So, are you familiar with the ARRR prayer method? It's kind of what people are using is how to do relational prayer of like acknowledge, so like what's going on, pay attention to what's going on, acknowledge, relate, so bring it to the Lord, then receive and then respond. And what does that's good. Yeah. And so this is what I think IPF is using it. I don't know

who really funny about that is Peter Crave has a book called Prayer for Beginners. And this was written, yeah, what early nineties. And he says something extremely simple. So I love that this wisdom is not novel. It's in the sense of being just new, right? He talks about like when you go to cross a road you stop and you'd listen You know, yeah, but that's interesting. Okay, so I love that acknowledging where you're at and this has come from again in my time in formation particularly with young men and spiritual directees of Women tend to do a little bit well how I like to say, like women tend to know what's going on inside, but it's kind of all together.

And so it kind of is a tool for you to recognize what's going on in it and sort of like parse it out. And for the men, it's just, it's important for us to ask the question of like, what's going on? Like, what am I feeling? How am I doing? And so you can go ahead and read if you want, or I can see.

So these are daily, you know, some of these have like weekly check ins. Is this just a daily? The idea of it is for it to be done. OK, each day or as close to each day. So it begins with acknowledge. So you you respond to the question, how do I feel? Yeah. Why do I feel this way?

The external action event or circumstances. And then it says, go deeper. What's the motivation? Why does it affect me in this way? Why am I acting in this way? What do I feel is at stake? Who does it affect? And then relate and receive says, my goodness, take the joy, desire and wound and relate

it to the Lord through a prayerful conversation. Do you feel the Lord saying anything to you? Is there a passage or image from scripture that speaks to your experience?" Then respond says, after conversing with the Lord about your experience and his response, now make a resolution with, that's beautiful, with greater praise, repentance or trust. Yeah. So you collaborated with Monk Manual to put this together? On both of these, yeah.

Yeah. On that one as well. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, so this and that are both Monk Manual. Yeah. But I thought Monk Manual existed well before So Monk Manual the company about it. So oh we didn't we didn't collaborate on the original Yeah, this is just kind of a new edition. Give us a look So you can peep that so it's pretty it's pretty It's pretty consistent with yeah what they do with just like an added Introduction from me that kind of gives it. Okay a little shape and direction. Well, that's beautiful But kind of like going back to...

See, this can be part of the third order thing. Absolutely. Hopefully both of these could be. But part of this, what the response is to again, is like, it's twofold. It's not just like saying prayers, but actually, it's kind of like these are sort of... This is supposed to be a tool for like relational prayer. And right, you pray with your whole self, and so it's kind of like, these are sort of, this is supposed to be a tool for like relational prayer. And right, you pray with your whole self. And so it's important to know like what's going on to bring it to the Lord. But this is one of our priests who's done a lot has said that when he's met priests or religious who have like gone off the deep end,

it almost always starts with an inability to effectively respond to like their emotional life. Like there's something off in their emotional life that they don't know how to respond to, they're not aware of it. And that is what ends up opening the door for them, getting in so much trouble. And so just developing the muscle of like, okay, like what's going on?

Why am I feeling, why am I doing that? But then also kind of understanding that there's some deeper foundational questions at work and and sort of asking those. So I'll just go through a quick one and then we can kind of carry on. It's just I remember we have a rule in the friary of like of respectful silence and you're not supposed to talk until like Mass is over. But there is a bit of a culture, subculture of guys like chatting a little bit saying hello around the coffee pot in the morning.

And I, it would drive me nuts. And I really, really, really didn't like it. And I would say I didn't like it because it's like against the rule. But really, like what was happening is I just wasn't like, it's really like a fear thing. Like I just, I was afraid of somebody making a joke and I wasn't going to laugh because I'm like not in that mode. And now I'm like the jerk or I'm just like I was like there. I was just kind of like I was afraid of the situation that's not predictable now. I don't know what they're going to do.

And so I would get angry at the people and I would say the rule, whatever. But what's really happening is I'm like. Afraid here. And so for me, just being able to go through the process of like what's really happening, what's really at stake, why am I really acting the way I am? I think helped me then to better like have self-awareness and then navigate that situation, you know. It would have made you a lot less likely to sort of blow up or to act in a kind of harsh way. Yeah stood it

Yeah, or like my it would just or my main thing would or maybe just like avoid the guys in a way That makes me like a jerk. That's more. That's more my mo than blowing up is sort of cold shoulder. Yeah But but then it's then it's like okay. Here's what's really going on. And then I can ask myself, like, okay, is that like, is being afraid of chit chat around the coffee pot really like healthy? And like, what's going on there? And so it also just allows me to bring some of that to the Lord. But I think, so that's like a concrete example. But with a lot of this stuff, it's just growing in this self-awareness. And then also, like some of the deeper questions of like some of the stuff could be, you know, like, why are you so anxious about the test? And you get to the bottom of it, because it's like, if I don't have this job,

I feel like I'm going to be a disappointment to my parents. And then you can bring that to the Lord. It's kind of what it's supposed to help with. I love that. Yeah, great. Still don't fully understand the collaboration. So they have a monk manual. They came to you and you guys said well so so we the guy who produced our

Brother Isaiah's album was very good friends with the founder of monk manual and so it was just Again this this is like the traditional Monk Manual. That just now has a slight sort of CFR feel to it. But we needed somebody who could also help publish a book. And so we essentially went to them as a publisher. And so they, with some of the publishing skills, the technical skills, the testing skills,

helped us develop and put this together. I don't understand, you said El Adéguerlope. I don't see that. What's the, all the colors? The colors, the colors, the colors. So it's based off of, she's the patroness of the community. So they worked that into that. But again, there's gonna be a black one as well. But I think it's particularly, it's helpful,

hopefully it's helpful for everyone, particularly for, to be, I literally do that every day, which is why it matters to me. Because I didn't, I think men, and there's a healthy reason for this sometimes, but we're not always aware of what's going on in ourselves, but it is affecting us. And so it's helpful to just grow in that self-awareness

and then bring that to the Lord. Yeah, that's really good. And I think it's important to realize that asking the question, like what's going on, is not the same as becoming an emotional man. Correct. A lot of our emotions result from the fact that we don't do that. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like when someone gets angry or emotional in a way that's inappropriate, it's because he isn't dealing with what's going on. Not because he's always there.

Right. Yeah, and 100%. But like there's just, we have emotions and we have internal things happening that are affecting you if you like it or not. Yeah. You know? And yeah, so if, and there can be again, behavior patterns that are happening and you don't really know they're happening

or why they're happening. And it's just, again, it's not- It develops the interior life, doesn't it? Yeah, that's the idea. Like how many of us, maybe this has happened to you, it's just, again, it develops the interior life, doesn't it? Yeah, that's the idea. Like how many of us maybe this has happened to you has happened to me, I'll go to the store and I'll feel snubbed by the lady or at the barista or something. She may not have done anything wrong. I just have this feeling. But if I'm not sort of three dimensional, if I'm not

like aware, yeah, that affects my day. Yeah, whether I look at it or not. Yeah. Now, if I look at it, then I can ask questions about it That's just like a trivial example, but we deal with this a million times a day Like I'm still dealing with what I said about father Mike Schmitz and hoping that you received it. Well, mm-hmm Oh, I received it. Great. Yeah. Yeah, I thought you did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like that's just an example of like Yeah, we deal with stuff under the surface. Yeah. And we often don't deal with it. It's happening whether we deal with it or not.

And if we don't deal with it, then things happen. Yeah. So I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. Can I give two brief examples on it? Please. Like for example, I remember the first time I ever went snowboarding, I had like trying to put on the board, like caused me a lot of pain.

Like I was really uncomfortable and I didn't really like the experience in part just because of putting on the board and And then like I have these experiences of like I'm not able to sit cross-legged on the ground And it wasn't until like two weeks ago. I realized I have really tight hips and hip flexors Whatever. Yeah, and that's why I'm having this pain and all this sort of stuff. I Can stretch and that'll get better? Yeah, you know, but it took me 22 years to ask the question of Okay, like what's going on here? And so that's and that happens spiritually. I think as well. It's like I could be I'm misusing the internet or I'm misusing whatever and I keep doing it and I'm having these patterns and or I'm misusing whatever, and I keep doing it, and I'm having these patterns, and there's not a guarantee, unless you stop and ask the question, like you can't assume someone's

going to stop and ask the question. It's like, what's going on here? And so it's part of doing that, because then when you know what's really happening, you can sort of have an informed response. That's beautiful. Yeah, I love the mundane example. It really does help open it up, because we've all had experiences like that. Can people get that book right now? Yeah. is that good? Yeah, where do they go? So monk manual comm forward slash friars?

I remember when monk manual first came out you know one of my hippie friends from Portland told me about it and They did a good job at kind of hiding the fact that they were Catholic Because I just think and they did a good job like it was very Catholic friendly Yeah, but you got the sense that they could be talking about a Buddhist monk or who knows what kind of monk. Sure. And good for them. I kind of hope they do continue to do that so that we can kind of reach into other areas. But that's good to know. I'm definitely going to get one.

Yeah. And I think they've done that very well again so that it reaches a broader audience. I think what I don't like is having two books with me all day. Correct. I get that. So yeah. Yeah. I get that. I carry a backpack. Yeah, that's probably the best. But also I have like a, what you don't have probably, or maybe you do in your house, is I have like a chapel seat. So you know, I just get to leave my journal and my bravery there. That's a good idea. That's a good way to do it. Yeah, people should check that out. That's really great. And then your books available? Yep Yep, at essentialpress.com. And we've already took the father.

Sorry. And then Poco, Apoco. Poco Apoco's out there. Talked about that. Yeah. This is great. This has been a really enjoyable conversation. I appreciate it.

And I hope, you know, these things don't exist. I don't exist to sling merch. No. We have these things, hopefully as tools. 100%. Yeah, you didn't ask me to promote them or anything like that, but I want to because they all seem so excellent. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, so is that the burning bush on front of that? That's the burning bush, yeah, it's kind of a whole Exodus theme. Some of it, I don't know if any of it would qualify as Catholic lo-fi, but some

of it might be trending in that direction. Isn't that like, don't you have a Catholic lo-fi thing? I do, but what do you mean? Like I don't know, Some of Father Isaiah's music may fit with that. Some of it may not. I don't actually know what makes lo-fi lo-fi. I don't understand where Father Isaiah came into it. Exodus theme. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. That's right. So he got ordained a priest. His name is Father Isaiah. But he's been doing music for a while.

As Brother Isaiah. He just had a new album called that come out called mysteries and medicines Okay, and so the mysteries and medicines is this it's an album and it and this really kind of oh The mysteries and medicines title of the journal And so his like there's an introduction from him and all that sort of stuff beautiful beautiful All right, we got there we got there. there. God bless you. Thank you Josiah. Thank you for sitting with me for this long. Matt, thanks again for having me. Hopefully I can make my flight.

Oh, it's nearly two. Alright, that's about the time. We're spot on.