Pints With Aquinas - St. Francis, The CFR's Founding, and Mission w/ Fr. Malachy Napier

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Fr. Malachy Napier joins the show. He talks about Being Ordained During the Pandemic, The Life of Francis of Assisi, and much More. He also tells a phenomenal story about doing prison ministry in an over crowded Nicaraguan Prison. Show Sponsors: Strive 21 https://strive21.com/matt Ascension Press: https://ascensionpress.com/fradd  

Father Maliki. Matt, what's up? Um, not much. Last time we met, we were at a pub in Manhattan. That's true. Facts. Because I was given a talk to some young adult group. Yeah.

You said something that I have since said multiple times. All right. You said that when people ask you what you are, you be- depending on where you are in the country, depends on how you- what you said. Did you remember saying this? Yes. All tell the story. I liked it. Yeah. So it depends on where I'm at is how I'm going to respond because if it's like totally out of context, then somebody is just going to steer it.

You were like, you say I'm a Franciscan and it's like, you just gave me new information. You might as well just said, like, you know, like a purple people leader, you know, it's like bubble your lips. Yeah. So I remember once being in a Zaxby, so down South from Georgia, I was in a Zaxby's and this guy's standing in line, definitely like eyeing me the whole time while we're waiting to order, I'm there with my dad,

I'm just like, okay, you know, I go to Georgia and generally speaking, people stare at me, cause you don't see these kind of like, you know, the bearded dudes is like, I'm not a Muslim, cross, cross, cross, cross, you know. And I was sitting there waiting line and this guy's sitting there and he's looking at me.

And then I turn and smile at him and say, you know, God bless you. And he looks at me, he was like, what is you? And I'm just sort of like, ah, I was like, again, I almost wanted to start a Franciscan, but then I realized I was like, if I say that, it's gonna be totally meaningless. I said, well, I was like, I'm a guy who's met Jesus,

and I'm trying to live the gospel and doing it after the example of this guy who lived 800 years ago called St. Francis, and there's other guys doing the same thing. So we try and serve the poor and preach the gospel. And he was like, amen. Yeah, I like it. So you're in the South.

So I'm in the South. You lead with Jesus. You lead with Jesus every single time. You talk Jesus and people are like, amen, you're going to get a lot of amens, whether it's from the teller or the person who's in line with you waiting. But if you're in New York. If you're in New York, and away from the friary. So that, again, it depends on part of the city. But in general, what I would say for people is, is like, I'm a Franciscan and up there it actually like people know the Franciscans, there's missions, there's homeless shelters, there's soup kitchens. So you say Franciscan and it means

something, but in particular also like Catholic priest. Now, you know, depending on who they are, that can solicit different types of reactions, but I'm sort of one of those guys like, hey, this is who I am, you know, like I'm a Catholic priest, I'm a Franciscan. And still it seems like there's more and more people that don't even have that point of reference, like with faith, God, religion. And so for me, one of the things, again, I go back to is like, what's my experience been of God? And sharing that with them, it's like,

I met this guy who totally changed my entire life. And let me tell you about that. So I remember you saying that you'd leave with the poor. Oh, yeah. Because if you're in New York and they're like, what are you? And you're like, we help the poor. Well, that's good. I like that. But if you're in California, if you're in California, bro, I got sandals. I just like to live simply. Yo, Francisco simplicity. And I thought that's really good.

Yeah. How do you wedge your way in? Yeah, find the point of contact with somebody, like what's the shared humanity that we have and the place where we can meet? Because one thing I remember a long time ago, there was a talk I was at, and this woman was speaking, it was connected with a courage ministry,

which I've done work with. And she said, you know what? Conversion only happens in the context of relationship. So whatever we can do and there are limits, but whatever we can do to maintain or establish relationship, that's something that's a good that's worth fighting for because it's only in the relationship

that there's a possibility for conversion to be happening. And also you realize it's a mutual thing. Like I'm also called to deeper conversion in that relationship that's not a one way street. So it's always like looking for like, where is there a place where we can stand together and then like look out from there and then like, you know, hey, this is my experience of God.

You know, this is the way that he's transformed my life. And you know what, it's not just for me. It's actually for you, too This is a question. I like asking Franciscans and Dominicans interests me So like tell me about the reactions you get for wearing that thing. Oh Man, well, they're varied. So I mean obviously But it's really interesting. I was literally in an airport in Denver So in Denver has these like long, like, uh, like terminal wings and like, and so there's all these walking sidewalks. Well, I was like traveling all day. And so sometimes I'm like, I don't even want to use the walking

sidewalk. I need to actually get stepped in kind of thing, like do something physical. And I'm walking and there's somebody coming the other direction with their little kid holding their hand. And the little kid just looks up at me and points and says, Jesus! Which is like, you know, it's like beautiful. It's like, yeah, amen, praise him, you know? And I had another experience recently, it was quite fascinating,

where I was on my way to Hermitage. So every month we go and take a couple days just to be in solitude with the Lord as part of our way of life as CFRs. On my way, I realized something really phenomenal I would say miraculous happened with the New York thruway recently They redid all of their like, you know a little like travel stop places and each of them now has Chick-fil-a Where is the New York? This is New York in the airport No, like when you're driving on the thruway heading north

Okay, all of the all of the stops now have Chick-fil-a. Now I'm from Georgia, so it's like, I mean, it's just like the promised land came to Egypt. You know what I'm saying? So I'm stopping in to get a chicken biscuit on my way up to Hermitage. Now walk in and there's like a little bit of, it seems like a bit of a tiff between the staff.

No one else is in line in front of me. I just walk in, which is a rare thing in a Chick-fil-A. But it was an off hour. And as I'm coming up to the counter, one of the girls says, hey, somebody's here. You need to go over that register. And she turns around and walks over and she's like kind of like caught in her mind

and whatever she was talking about. And then she looks up and she was like, this is just what we needed. And she turns up and she was like, this is just what we needed. And she turns around and she was like, look, God. And I was like, and she points down at the cross. Oh, I see. Because for people, like the cross continues to be a sign, right, of Christ, of God,

of the presence of the Lord, the love of Jesus. And so it was just the funniest thing. And she's like sitting there, I was like, well, she's like, so what are you? And I was like, well, she's like so so what are you, you know, and I was like, well I'm a Franciscan Catholic priest again, like I was like you're not getting traction or response. So I'm like, okay I follow Jesus. She was like mmm. Amen And I was like, you know, and I was like so it's like what's going on here this board is she was like You don't even want to know but we need God here. I'll tell you that much

I was like we all need some God and she and so we talked and I was like, you don't even want to know, but we need God here. I'll tell you that much. And I was like, we all need some God. And so we talked and I was like, you know, I want to say a little prayer. She was like, yeah. So I like prayed with her and she called the manager over and we're like, bless them and bless Chick-fil-A. And then she looks at me and she's going to ring up this chicken biscuit. And she was like, I'm putting God's name down on this order. And literally, so I have a Chick-fil-A receipt that says God, chicken biscuit, you know,

and just like this openness that occurs when people see somebody who's a sign, because the habit is meant to be a sign, right, of contradiction, a sign of something beyond this world and pointing to the Lord. I mean, we don't wear it for ourselves, certainly not comfortable, definitely not during the summer,

but as a sign to others and also to myself. Now that being said, you obviously get the complete converse response at times. Let's do that. So that's like walking through New York and then having somebody come up and say things that I don't wanna repeat on the show because you have to do a lot of editing

and just like yelling in my face and just like making in my face and just like making like these gross gestures towards me because because I represent the church or represent God and you kind of see this like you know pretty radical responses. It's so bizarre because I mean in New York City you've got every you've got the weirdest looking people wearing the weirdest things. That's a fact. You know all sorts of hair and wearing dresses and apparently everyone can wear everything. Yes.

But not you. Well, no. And I think part of that is, is because you can, I mean, we know this in the public sphere, you can talk about anything, just not Jesus. You could even talk about God into a certain way. Get away with it. Yeah, you get, if you stay generic enough and sort of in that sort of like spiritual ethereal realm, maybe even a bit sort of mystical sounding,

people are like, okay, because it doesn't demand anything of me, and it doesn't touch on the concreteness of my life. Which is summed up in I'm spiritual, not religious. Yeah, exactly. But as soon as you say Jesus, like you know there's power in the name. And I think there's something about the cross,

like I love the simplicity of our habit where we have this simple wooden cross, and there's no way that you could look at that and sort of like confuse it for jewelry or for some sort of like apparel accessory. Like it's very clear, like the simplicity of the cross. And throughout all of history, like we know, St. Paul himself, I mean, in his time talked about how, guess what, the only thing I'm going to preach is Jesus Christ

and Him crucified, who's this stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. And there's this sign of contradiction that Jesus, I think, continues to remain in our own time. My friend Father Jason and I recently went to Ukraine Ukraine and we went through Turkey. And so we're in this long line for about 40 minutes surrounded by Muslims. We could tell. And of course, father Jason has the large cross and we got to the end and it turned out you shouldn't be here. You need to go pay for a visa. Then you come this way. And you know, it was a long trip. I was kind of tired and I was like, something like just expressed some disappointment.

He said, but what a joy to give witness to Christ for 45 minutes like that. He held up to me. Come on. You're a better man than me, Father. Yeah, well that happened for me as well. I was at a seminary trip and I happened to be on the Temple Mount because there was a group

that let us in, but like all of a sudden it became very clear like that there was this reaction to the cross that was on my habit being on the Temple Mount. It was just sort of like, what was the reaction? I mean, the reaction was, was like you can't have that here. Yeah. And you just sort of sign a contradiction.

It continues to be that sort of provocation. So what did you do? In the, well, I had somebody who was there who was a seminary professor who kind of intervened in the situation. If it was my choice, I probably would have like pulled it out and been like, you mean this?

I can't have this here? This, you know, I'm from Georgia, so naturally like a fighter, sort of like military family background. So I'm, you know, as much as St. Francis is a man of peace, I have to work on conversion of heart in that regard. But I think it's like this sign to the world of a God who is not somehow distant, but near to us

like Christ is in the mystery of the incarnation. And also a sign to the world that this God that comes near to us is calling us into relationship through the path of repentance. It's like the first words of the gospel, right? That Jesus speaks, repent and believe. And this call to conversion, which is the call of the gospel,

the call of Jesus Christ. Like the world, sometimes like, I don't wanna hear that. I mean, there's days I don't wanna hear, it's like, I don't wanna hear. But the world, it seems today in a very real way is like absolutely just revolting against anything and anyone that would offer me like an invitation that there might be something wrong with my life

that needs to change. So Thomas Aquinas looking at the daughters of lust, one of them is hatred of God. And he says this because exactly what you're saying, we hate whoever puts impositions on us. I was just reading Thomas Aquinas' commentary on the Beatitudes yesterday and today, and it's the same thing. It's so contrary. You got to mourn. You got to be poor. You gotta be meek. Yeah.

Right. Which is the opposite of taking revenge. Yes. So if you want Beatitude, which we all want, you can have it, but you can only have it through dying. I think it's really important that we look at the Beatitudes or Christ's cool afresh by just acknowledging, I don't know what this means and I need to.

I think so often I go and be like, yeah, I get it. And when you get something, you're not interested in learning something if you've already gotten it. And there's actually something that, church fathers speak about where describing people's attempts at trying to sort of grasp in their totality the mystery of God is they're like if if you believe that you have the

answer and that you have fully understood then you know that what you're talking about is not God yeah and I think there's a way in which if I'm reading scripture and I believe that I have sort of mastered and drawn all that is possible to be received from any passage, then it's no longer the Word of God to me. Because the Word of God is infinite and riches and depth of meaning. And also there's a poverty, there's a beautiful experience, and I have this, like we have two hours of prayer each day as part of our life. So one of them is a private hour of meditation in the morning, another is a Eucharistic holy hour.

And there's times where it's like you pick up the gospel and you read it and you're sitting there and you're like, I'm getting nothing. Or I don't know what the heck this means. I may as well be reading the back of a cereal box. Yeah, and so like, what do I do with that? And so like the sort of first impulse is to either, like, reduce it and give a simplistic explanation that makes me feel good about myself. It's like,

oh, I understand that. This means X, Y, or Z. Or, you know, like, that doesn't, that's not worth my time. Like, this is boring or just sort of, like, move on to something that's got a little bit more interest and depth to it. But the real response that the Lord, I think, asked for us is like the poverty to sit there and just be like, God, I have no idea. And without your light, I can't know. And this kind of response before God and mystery and the faith, I think, is something that modern man lacks,

like with that sort of unfolding quest to dominate all of material reality through human reasoning and science and technology, there is this hubris that has consumed humanity with this kind of judgment that I am capable of encompassing all, understanding all, dominating all, controlling all. Which is the opposite of receptivity. Yeah, and the opposite of wonder before the mystery. And the kind of poverty that's allowing myself to stand before this and be like, yeah, I don't even know what this means, but I know that here is hidden the truth and wisdom

that's a foundation of everything that is. And here is the salvation that I'm looking for. And all I can do is stand here, that kind of the the poor in spirit Right. That's the Beatitude the first Beatitude blessed her to the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven And so the kingdom is received in my poverty not in my having all the answers And so that's a posture that modern man just loathes and I mean I'm modern man, too So it's not sort of like, you know, oh, everybody, it's

like, no, like I struggle to sit in that poverty, but that's the thing that I. I find, and I'm sure this is true of many of us, rather than acknowledging where we are in our wretchedness and begging for God's guidance and grace and virtue, we pretend to be where we wish we were and pretend we live in that role. And I'll give you a couple of examples, right? So, so one is I've just realized how annoying I find the poor here in Steubenville, particular people, right? There's a lot of poor here and they, I know them and I know their names

and they'll shout out to me or they'll continually give me the same story as to why they need money. And I'm annoyed, but I'm embarrassed that I'm annoyed. So I wouldn't acknowledge to you or myself that I'm annoyed by that I would much rather somehow pretend to myself that I'm not annoyed but if I pretend to myself that I'm somewhere other than where I am yeah then the Lord can't take me by the hand and lead me to where he wants me to be amen because I think we have a we have no trouble saying I'm a sinner but then you go oh yeah really

tell me exactly how you're a sinner oh no, no, no, I'm not going to do that. This isn't confession. No, I think we're all too comfortable saying, yeah, I'm wretched. I'm a sinner. Yeah. But then when it comes down to acknowledging something embarrassing like that, it's like that's that's where we got to be like just sitting in front of the scriptures being like, I don't like this. I wish I did. Yeah, I would like to like it, but I don't like it. I'd rather be doing something like, don't you think that that vulnerability before the Lord and then saying, believe me. Cause the only place that conversion, right, can take place in my life is in my heart. Like there's this reality that Francis had this encounter with God that radically transformed his entire existence. And it gave birth to this like obsession, not with being poor in the sense of not having things, but with acknowledging the full weight of his

like created existence and with that weight of knowing like that everything is gift and therefore nothing is mine. And this sort of like way in which his heart just opened up the vulnerability to say like, I don't have the answers. I'm actually not in control of anything. I mean, I look back and that was one of the things like the Lord did a big purge on me during the beginning of COVID. So I'm a, I call myself a pandemic priest. So I was ordained in 2020, wow, May 30th, 2020. So we're like- How many people were at your order? I was ordained in 2020, May 30th, 2020. Okay.

So we're like- How many people were at your ordination? Ten. And yeah. Before you get to your point, what was that like for you? I'm sure you look forward to this day. You have an idea of what the day of ordination would be like. This was kind of the thing that God was teaching me in that moment.

It was related. It's like all of a sudden I'm moving towards this objective concrete good, right? The priesthood. I mean, my call to the priesthood was something that had happened a couple of decades earlier, and it was like the anticipation. I was a friar already for 12 years, and it was like all these different people

and streams of life that were kind of gonna be converging in St. Patrick's Cathedral and a few thousand people and the cardinal and beautiful, Scola, all of it, it right and you're just pumped about this and then all of a sudden this thing that's before you that you're looking towards is taken away and I remember it was like all of a sudden like this immense anxiety began to just rise up in this frustration and this anger and and as I was looking towards this good that was being was like More and more stripped away stripped stripped away, stripped away first.

It's like we're going to delay then, we don't know when it's going to happen, we don't know where it's going to happen, we don't know who could come if it does happen, and all these questions that were there, all this uncertainty. And I remember the Lord just showing me this truth, which was every place in my heart where I was experiencing anxiety and fear and frustration was a place in my heart where I was experiencing anxiety and fear and frustration was a place in my heart where something or someone other than Jesus Christ had become the center. And so this realization led to like,

right like this repentance, it was like, God, like I've made an idol out of my own ordination. Beautiful. I've made an idol out of my own ordination. Beautiful. I've made an eye, you know, like I've made, I've made an idol out of my preferences. Yeah. Can you get into some of the specific things that you were anxious about? You know, so first was, is it was like, I'm the second of eight kids in my family. And I'm like, all of a sudden it was like, don't even know like who's going to be able to come or not come.

So I'm anxious about just this moment that I've longed to share so deeply. And it's like, all of a sudden it's like, I'm not gonna be able to share that maybe, like with the people that I love, the deepest and the dearest in my life. I'm like, God, are you sure you didn't totally screw this one up?

You know? And it was like, of all the years, it had to be this year. And so that was a piece of it. And then the ex-? And it was like of all the years, it had to be this year. And so like that was a piece of it. And then the external was like, I mean, being ordained in St. Patrick Cathedral is kind of epic and beautiful. And the skull and the choir is like, I'm looking forward to that, like in my humanity. And it was like, and I'm like, Jesus, like, why, why are you allowing this to happen? And then beyond that, right, was it like all of a sudden

I'm being ordained into a situation where like mass can't be celebrated publicly. That was like, what the heck? Why, like what's going on? It was just like all these different things that were like what I was anticipating and looking forward to were things that started to just be taken away.

And in that gift of being stripped of all of these things was an opportunity to recognize again that everything is gift. And so it's not up to me to determine how and when the gift is given. It's up to me to have this posture of receptivity to the gift and a poverty that's like, Lord, like I'm before that scripture. And it's like, I might be here for a week in front of this gospel passage. It means nothing to me right now. And I can't decide when and how the Lord's gonna give the gift of a light that might reveal a deeper truth

to me through that word. Or I'm in front of this mystery of like my ordination, when's it gonna happen? And I remember, you know, one of the greatest gifts I received was from my father during this time. And I was trying to figure out like, do I wait or not? So basically the way it unfolded was is the Cardinal of New York Cardinal Dolan said,

you guys, we don't know what we're gonna do, figure out and do what you were gonna do on your own. So we're like, okay, so now we're free to sort of come up with our own plan. So you could have potentially pushed it forward or. Yeah, there's different options. You could wait to whenever the Archdiocese of New York might decide that they're gonna do it,

which like, you know, archdiocese everywhere are kind of similar. You know, it's like, there's a- Glacial pain. Exactly, bro. And so I was like, don't wanna do that. And then it's like, well, now where are you gonna get you? And then find a bishop, so we find a bishop. And then it's this question of like, do you wait,

like all this, you know, like two more weeks of lockdown, and then we're all gonna be able to do normal things again. You know, what level we're at, I don't know all the numbers and colors and all this stuff about like levels of like coming out of the lockdown. And it was like, well, what do I do? Do I wait or do I move forward knowing if I move forward

that like people that I love will not be there, not just kind of like my really dear friends, but like my brothers and my sisters, you know, and you're just like. And who were you discerning this with? It was me and the other brother that were going to be ordained. And was it something where you had to be in agreement

one way or the other? Okay. And his family, he's from Ireland, Father Oisin, and he said, bro, he was like, I'll do whatever you want. He was like, it doesn't matter what we do. My family is not gonna be here because they're on the other side of the Atlantic and the borders are closed. And so he was like, but I'll just, he was like,

he was like, I'm happy and would be, you know, open to being ordained as soon as we can. But I know that your family might be able to come if we wait, so like whatever you wanna do. And I remember I called my dad, told him all of this, and I'm just like wrestling, like what do I do here, Jesus? And my dad on the phone, I just never forget, he says to me, he was like, son, he was like,

I'm not gonna tell you what decision to make, but whatever decision you make, I just want you to think about the whole family. And I was like, thank you, dad. And he was like, and my dad has this thing, well, he'll like say something and then he'll say, and what I mean by, and so like he says, what you think about the whole family?

And he says to me, he says, son, what I mean by the whole family is the church. Come on. The church needs priest. That's awesome. He was like, and I'd love to be there, but if I can't, don't wait. And like, it was just like,

that word just gave me the clarity of like, it's Jesus alone, it's for him alone, it's his priesthood, it's his gift, and it's for the sake of the family, the church. And so two weeks later it was ordained. There was 10 people there. And where were you? St. Patrick's or?

No, we were at our friary in Newark, New Jersey. So most blessed sacrament friary. What was that day like? What was the ceremony like with 10 people? So honestly, there was a beautiful simplicity that I experienced it. I don't know if I would have missed so much had it been otherwise. Because there was nothing but the right.

And when you strip away everything else, our scola was two brothers in the back corner singing through a doorway so they didn't count as 10. Don't tell anybody that. It's just a private conversation. Exactly, right. This isn't going out. So, you know, and then there was the brother

that was live streaming it, so that people could connect virtually, the bishop, my religious superior brother, who was the emcee, this other brother, and God was gracious enough my mom and dad could come, and one of my brothers. But that was it. And it was- Where was the bishop from?

The bishop, Bishop Manny Cruz, who was an auxiliary in Newark. And he was a good friend of our community beforehand. He's Cuban-American, just fiery guy. And it was funny, because like we're there just before things are starting to unfold. And it was not sure like, how's this gonna go? Like, do we have to wear mask, face shields, gloves?

There's all the, do you remember? It was insane. It was in. In New York City, I can't imagine what it's all the, do you remember? It was insane. It was in New York City. I can't imagine what it was like for you, you fool bugger. Dude, I was about to go nuts. I mean, before that day, I was already about to go nuts. And so anyhow, we're there and we're like, how's this all gonna go?

And he shows up and the bishop says, you know what? He was like, we can't wear a mask. He was like, this is our nation. He was like, we can't. He was like, he was like, you know what? He was like, we can't wear a mask. He was like, this is an ordination. He was like, we can't. He was like, he was like, you know, he was like, we're just gonna celebrate this ordination, okay? And it was like, thank you. And then this man just like opened up

his fatherly heart to us. And it was like embracing us, you know, cause like, well, these people like don't touch me, give me six feet, you know, it was all that. It was, yeah. Amen. And, and it was this moment where I was in the midst of that. And I remember just like having this experience

where just all the different parts of the rite became so much more like present and real because there was nothing else happening. There was, I mean, again, it was like, it was just the ordination, right? And I remember going forward, having my hands anointed and then having this moment where like the bishop and Manny Cruz is like Cuban-American. So like Latino, Latino sometimes can be like over the top, you know, it's like I lived in Central America. It's just like you went intense, you know, go Latino,

right? Think about hot sauce. And so like he puts oil on our hands and then they're there. And then I see him look at the oil on our hands, a chrysom, you just smell it, right? And he's like looking and he's almost done, he's like, no, and then he's like almost like scoops and just takes oil and just like lines every part of the surface.

And I had literally like a pool of chrysom in my hands. And I remember just like walking with this and just looking down and just like the Lord just like these hands have been anointed for others. And I just knew like that ordination wasn't for me. And I think if it hadn't happened the way that it did, it would have been for me. And there was this gift of realizing this is a gift, the priesthood is a gift and it's not for me. It's for the church, it's for the family. And I had the blessing of being able to spend the first six months celebrating more masses

in people's homes than I did in churches, because public masses weren't allowed. So just had to celebrate private masses. And doing wild things like hearing confessions in Central Park by sending out, you know, like a Google map pin drops to like people in the city. It was like, Hey, we're here at this location. If you want confession, come on.

And, you know, just like this gift of being able to like experience the power of bringing people to the Eucharist for the first time in months You just see the look in their eyes of like longing like talk about Eucharistic hunger and like this thirsting for the Lord and again like all of this Because the Lord allowed me the gift of being stripped of the things that I was putting at the center of my life that wasn't him and giving me this gift of receiving

as something that's his and not my own, my priesthood that's for others and not for me and not about me at the end of the day. So I'm so thankful in an unexpected way that Jesus allowed that to happen the way that it did. So do you come from a small town in Georgia? Augusta. So it's, yeah, it's a city, you know,

I mean, we've got the masters. So if you like golf, you're definitely gonna know about it. Of course, compared to a New York city, it may as well be a- Oh my goodness. Yeah. Holy cow. So what was it like getting used to the sound? Oof.

Yeah. I'll never forget that postulancy arriving in Harlem. Yeah, Harlem. Harlem and like all of a sudden showing up and I'm like going to lay down at night and then all of a sudden there's just like one side of the building gangster rap and the other side reggaeton. So you're just sort of like caught between these like sound walls, competing groups that are trying

to like claim the night air and sound by their big boom boxes and everything. It is like, I'm just sitting there and I remember I was like sitting in holy hour and I'm like totally like ADHD if anyhow they didn't diagnose people when we were younger. I think we're about the same age and thank God for that. And I've taken medication, but I, uh, I definitely get distracted easily. And I remember just being there and just like, what, how am I supposed to make a holy hour when there's literally somebody outside my window,

you know, just like, and I remember it was like, just this like transition that happened over time where I just had to make this choice. It was like, Jesus, I can't pray right now. You talking about the honesty, it was like, I can't even like pay attention to you, Lord. The most I can do is just hope to like,

just stay in this chair and not get angry. That's all I can do. And like for a while, that was my prayer. Literally Holy hour was me sitting there like, don't be pissed off at this person out the window. You know, stop arguing. You know, it's like, it's like, is there domestic abuse going on outside my window right now?

It's just like the way people are screaming. And I mean, coming from Georgia, totally different culture. But over time, a really beautiful thing happens, right? Like as a missionary and as someone who's called into ministry is that the Lord opens up the opportunity to begin to see people the way that he sees them. And when that happens, you fall in love. Like God's in love with humanity.

Jesus was in love with everyone. And even in spite of how annoying I can be, like he loves me, right? And like that type of a heart, which is the heart of Jesus, is something that I think spending time in adoration without knowing it happens. And I remember there was just like just time where I don't know how it happened, but at some point along the trajectory of my life as a friar, it's

been I think almost 16 years now, 15, 16 years, something like that as a friar. When did you join? 2008. Okay, that's cool. I was married in 2006. Okay. So we kind of have a similar age, that's cool. I was married in 2006. Okay. So we kind of have a similar, Yeah, yeah. Similar age, similar vocation.

Yeah, yeah. So that, back in 2008 when I joined, like I was just trying not to get pissed off. Yeah. And now it's like, I'm sitting in the chapel and this like music still is going in the Bronx. It hasn't stopped. Guess what?

Doesn't stop. City doesn't sleep. It's true, trust me, Ben. Although winter time may be a little bit calmer, but I'm sitting there and I smile because I start thinking of the faces of all these people I know. And instead of just being like this annoying distraction, it becomes this like sign of like these people that the Lord sent me to that my heart's fallen in love with. I don't know how that happens because the first time I came to New York, I was like, great to visit never, ever, ever, ever living there.

Did I say ever? It was like, and then here's the Lord, like, you know, and it's kind of like, I don't know, I don't think it's twisted humor, but I think there's sort of this kind of like. It's funny is I'm thinking of Therese of Lisieux you who has that story of the sister who would rattle the beads So I would against the wood and I'm like, but what you're dealing with is like 211 Yeah You know, we kill for silence and the rattling of beats Although I do have to say with the rattling of beads thing I still remember from my postulancy I wanted to sort of like wrangle the neck of one of my classmates Because he had

He had an analog watch It had a little tick. Oh The second hand just so subtle and just so but we've communicated yo I'm like and I'm just sort of like he's doing this just because he wanted to drive me nuts So this is interesting right because I served with net ministry, so you might be familiar with. Oh, yeah. This is a couple of years after my conversion. So I'm just on fire with the love of Jesus. And if I would meet another Christian, I would just want to rejoice in this thing

we had both found, found us. So when I was about to do net, I thought, I know they're talking about conflict resolutions, but we're not going to need to do that because we both love Jesus. And then the way your brother squeezes his toothpaste, like I hate him. I actually hate him. Totally. It's just marvel at this. And it like, I mean, as a friar, this happens like in so many different ways. It's like, I have like, you know, like most, and it doesn't change too, because I'm like, I'm, you know'm 15 years in with friars that are my friary. And it's like recently we're like,

we're like arguing about like, you know, what kind of stopper we're gonna use for like the drain and the sink, because one guy's like, doesn't like the one that has, that you can pull up and like water goes through and the other one's like, just like a solid seal one. Ridiculous, like who cares I do everybody everybody you know exactly so like it's fun I think it's something I don't know I believe part of it I think personally is

like the Lord just wants us to grow in love when this is good because before I was married I thought I was a pretty reasonable fella yeah and then you live with people and the first thing you realize is how annoying they are. And then the Lord helps you realize how annoying you are and what they have to put up with. Whereas if I was on my own, I would never get to know how annoying I was. That's right. Cause I'm awesome. And everybody loves me. I mean, I love myself anyhow. So why should you? Yeah.

That's the joy of community. Yeah. Oh yeah. So when, so you, you, how did you first hear about the friars? Well, I'm from a community down in Georgia, the lay community called the Alalea community. So it was a charismatic community, covenant community that started in the early 70s. And I had a reversion to my faith, kind of an early college. And after that was just like on fire and looking for ways to serve. And so my like school breaks from the university, I went to Augusta University back home.

It was basically looking for places to do mission work. And our community has had a longstanding, beautiful relationship with the mission as a charity. So I went to North Carolina, I went to Jenkins, Kentucky and to the South Bronx. And that's when you first said, I'm never gonna live here? Yes, 2002.

I was like, no way. I spent a summer there. I was like, it was great. The sisters are great. The poor is great, but it did meet the friars. And it was pretty awesome. That was Toronto World Youth Day that summer as well. So it was like summer.

I was there. Did you go? Yeah, oh yeah. You didn't say hi. I was there. I'm sorry, bro. Apologize, apology., forgive you. Air hug. Reconciliation happening right here, right now.

But the friars that summer just captured my attention, but I think two things. One is there were just dudes. Yes. I'm just like, I'm like, wait a minute. You're just guys that I kinda wanna hang out with you. And then the other thing was just like this like zeal that they have for Christ.

And it just came through in all these different ways. We went and spent time with them at their homeless shelter, Padre Pio, saw them at World Youth Day and like, I don't know if you remember, but like Toronto, they were like sort of rock stars that year. Father Stan had his own massive stage concert, you know, there's like brothers on gym bays, I'm like, who are these people? We're at like Niagara Falls on the way back and a van load of them

show up and pour out and they're like talking to everybody, you know, hacky sacking, frisbeeing. It's funny, I remember after World Youth Day in Toronto, being back in Australia. And I got this kind of coffee table book of World Youth Day, Toronto. And in it was a friar kneeling and praying. And I didn't know who the CFRs were, but I wanted to know who that was. And it was this like process of finally finding out

who the CFRs were before the internet's in full swing. So it's not that easy. And then I actually discerned with the CFRs for a long time, went and stayed with them in London, was in touch with Brother John Paul, who's now Father John Paul, I think for a while. But yeah, it's interesting just the witness, as you experienced, just the witness of the friars.

Yeah, and like we talked about before, it's kind of like, that's why this was something that from the beginning, the founders were really insistent on. Right, and this was during a time period where there was a lot of people like, yeah, like we'll use this, you know, we're a habit when we're like praying in a chapel.

And it was like, well, that's not, I mean, we know you're like, you know, like doing the God thing, you're in a chapel. It was like the world needs to see that out there on the street, you know, and people- What was it like for the Fries of the Renewal in the beginning, kind of reclaiming their tradition? Did they experience a lot of pushback?

Yeah, as all things complicated history. But part of that, I think, was was a desire for fidelity, which is a here's the thing. Like Franciscans are this like group that I think until the second coming are perennially going to be having this like desire for like a new let's start this thing again. Let's get after it again. And they talk about one of the reasons for this is unlike almost every other religious community that exists, the ideal, the rule, the sort of model for what it means to be a Franciscan is not written in constitution. It's a man who was a holy foal in love with Jesus. Yeah, but interestingly, he says, at the end of his life to his brothers, he says,

brothers, I've done what is mine, now you do what is yours. So what is mine? What does it mean to be like radically faithful to living the gospel in the 21st century? Right. Like a lot of ways to answer that question, and because of that tension, right, is that I think there's this ongoing tension

of like, I wanna come back to what's authentic and true. And so the friars began in a time where there was a lot of turmoil in religious life in general. Father Benedict Groschel, who's one of our founders, sort of the main instigator of the renewal, was working with a lot of religious and a lot of priests and had a pulse on like the need for renewal

and religious life in the church as part of the authentic renewal that was meant to flow out of the Second Vatican Council. And so the group has as its title, like Friars of the Renewal, not because primarily like involved with the Charismatic Renewal, but because at the center of what they sought to do

was to seek to renew the church in the way Francis did, which is through a radical endeavor of this like conversion of my own heart. And allowing that conversion to be manifest in the way that we live our life, a shared common life that had as its anchor prayer, that which flowed into a community that was real, not just in name, but like we really shared life

as brothers, like we really shared life as brothers. Like we washed dishes together, we cooked for one another, you know, it's like we cleaned different places in the fryer. We live family, right? And to have that be a part of life was something desired. And this proximity to the poor was another- And don't you, do you still have no beds? Do you sleep on the floor?

Yeah, so like it's either a simple mattress or a mat on the floor. So depending on the brother, you know, it's like if you have- Your old dude who can't walk, you might need a bit of a thicker mattress. Yeah, and I mean, in some friars, it's like getting up and off a mattress on the floor, it's even an option because of their age or health or whatever.

And so they've got a bed, but it's like this is, the idea is a simplicity of life where it's like, we wanna push ourselves and there's a phrase that's in our constitutions, which is we want to strive to live not by what is the maximum allowed, but the minimum necessary. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And so that's kind of like a paradigm. It's like this culture of dispensation we have in the church. Yeah. Well, that's okay because it's like, well, what if I went the other way? And yet at the same time,

not making an idol out of that. Eh? Yeah. Because I'm sure I could just see the Franciscans all trying to outdo each other. Oh yeah. And that can be good. Like outdoing each other in charity. Yeah. It could also be making an idol out of poverty. I don't know if you know this or not, but I was with a father, Stanford tuna in the middle East. Really? Like in 2012, we went and spoken Abu Dhabi together. I remember they said to us, do not mention the Prophet, you know, at these talks, not really the Prophet, of course, but because

there will be people from the government here, you know. And I said, well, look, I'm, if I get martyred, it's, I know it'll be far, it'll be father, Stanford, you know, and companion. And I'm not going down for companion. I'm sorry. So we had a really good time together and he got to tell me some of the history of your order. So I'm not sure how much you know, but I mean, what was the response of the Capuchin order from which you came out? I mean, that must've been mixed at best

because it sounded like Bendy Grichelle and the others were like, no, the Lord's not calling us to renew where we are. We have to go out. Well, they tried within the Capuchin order during their time, and that was met with resistance. And so they eventually kind of came to an end pass. So the way they speak about it is, and this is what they've shared with us, is that none of them wanted to stop being Capuchins. They actually just wanted to live what they believed to be the authentic Capuchin way of life. And their provinces that they were in

and the concrete situations they found themselves in was like, we can't do this here. And so they left and there was two reactions, I think, and I can see both of them as ways it would be appropriate responses, depending on your disposition towards them. One was, it was like a little bit of like good riddance, get the headache out of here, you know, adios amigo slash a lot of luck.

We'll see. Yeah, like a certain type of, you know, a criticalness of their decision and looking down on it. And then there were others that were just like heartbroken because it was like a divorce. I mean, and even our own founders sort of look back at the founding and they're like a recognition. This is a work of God, but also a sorrow and sadness, especially the older friars. I think some of the younger ones

that had just kind of begun their life as Capuchins, it was less felt, but like Father Benedict Grichel was like several decades into being a Capuchin and he left that and it just, to feel the weight of that, right? I think, so there was two different responses where it was like sorrow frustration feeling hurt on one side And then another sort of like, you know, like critical judgment, you know good riddance, you know, you know Peace later and now we can get back to sort of living our life without the encumbrance of feeling like you're sitting here

Saying that this isn't our life. That must have been like such a springtime for them. Oh yeah. Living together, praying, ministering. Oh my goodness, yeah. How did they attain their first friary? Do you know? Well, this was the Father Bennett Grichel was the sort of, not the spiritual director, but a spiritual friend and confidant of Cardinal O'Connor. And so when they decided to make this move,

they knew they were gonna need to be underneath church authority. It wasn't like, we're just gonna do a free-for-all and go start our own thing. And so he went to the Cardinal and said, "'We'd like to do this. "'Will you receive us?' And Cardinal O'Connor says to him,

"'I was wondering when you were gonna finally come "'and ask this.'" It was sort of like, you know, this further confirmation for Father Benedict. You know, there's a funny story where he's there early on before kind of the official break and a young brother's coming to him and just talking about his struggles

with what's happening in the province and the community. And what does he say? He says, in response to like, what are we gonna do is what the young friar says to him. And his response is, was, we're going to do something. And he says, as soon as he said that, he knew the Holy Spirit had spoken through him. And that he also was realizing kind of like,

oh crap, I can't believe I just said that. Now this is being set in motion. Like something just happened. I've been wrestling and I just crossed the threshold. So I don't know if you said that now this is being set in motion. Like something just happened. Yeah. I've been wrestling and I just crossed the threshold. So here I don't know if you know the story or not, but I was sitting with father Stanford, you know, over breakfast in Abu Dhabi before we went to preach. And he said that it may have been around this time when they're all wondering,

like, what are we doing? And then father Benedict Rochelle called father Stan. And father says like, hi, father Benedict said the ax has called father Stan and father says like hi Benedict said the axe has been laid to the root The axe has been laid to the tree and Just like so what does that mean? What are we doing? He was like pack your bags kid. come on over. We're doing the thing. Yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, and that,

like they moved into the South Bronx in 1987. It was still Fort Apache. Every building around them was burned out, literally, not like figuratively. Cars were burned out in the street. The police wouldn't go in there. No way. Like at all. And y'all set up shop in a place the police wouldn't come if y'all had trouble.

And so, and here they are, they move in and like, and you just see like the miracle of God's providence again and again, this church that had been abandoned, it was originally St. Adelbert's, it was a Polish national church, neighborhood had changed and there were no more poles in the area and the church itself was almost non-existent as a functioning parish.

There was an old school building. What is this, 80s, 90s? 87. 87. in the area and the church itself was almost non-existent as a functioning parish. There was an old school building. What is this, eighties, nineties? 87. 87, and how old's Father Benedict, roughly about that point? At this point, God. 60s, 70s?

He's gonna be late 60s. I just love that someone in their late 60s is like, you know what? I think the Lord's calling me to go live in a burned out area where the police won't show up if we get into trouble. Yeah. Wow. Who'd have been 54? 54, holy cow. if we get into trouble. Yeah. Wow. We've been 54.

54, holy cow. There you go, man. For a man. So, you know, Father Benedict, I mean, the courage for him, there was a lot of people that risked things, but I just think about for him, like the way that he had so much that was already built.

And you're right, like, it's like, he's not this guy who's at the beginning looking for, because young people, like you say, we wanna just like go Start something new and like you go to a college campus and say that yeah Let's do something, you know, and also I think when you're that age you begin to think of your legacy Mm-hmm. And so the idea that you would trust the Lord to start this crazy adventure having no idea whether it would succeed or not Yeah, oh my goodness. I mean, he always said from the beginning like it was this is a work of God

Yeah going on faith. Oh my goodness. I mean, he always said from the beginning, like, this is a work of God. He said, just based on the fact that it survived. And he sort of jokingly says, and the personalities, he was like, that we didn't kill each other at the beginning. Tell us about that. Tell us about the different personalities, from what you know.

I mean, so you have Father, you know, Stanford Tuna, who is just like a wild man. A wild hippie. Yeah, I mean, jazz, I mean, in a bad way. Yeah, it's like a wild man. A wild hippie. Yeah, I mean, jazz, I mean, in a bad way. Yeah, it's like a former jazz band musician who's like kind of this combination of like Puerto Rican Italian, you know, Yonkers boy who's like all soul, all heart, but fire, man.

And then you have Father Benedict, like, you know, so here's like choleric, melancholic father, and this is gonna be Father Stan, I think, kind of more like choleric, then you have over here Father Benedict, who think kind of more of that, Clareg Melancholic, then you have over here, Father Benedict, who like the guy, you know, is like, I think, you know, he was meant to be a CEO of some company, like just a vision, gifts, personality,

but this tremendous heart for the poor that were like at the center of his life always, like Jesus and the poor from the beginning just occupied him and it was a place where his heart remained. And so like, and the poor from the beginning just occupied him and it was a place where his heart remained. And so like, and he's got the strong vision and a strong personality and ideas of what this should look like.

Then you have Father Glenn Younger, a Brooklyn, Brooklyn Italian guy who's, you know, he's again, got all of that sort of like, we work things out in our family by yelling at each other. It's like the opposite of the Irish passive aggressive thing. You know, it's just sort of like, blah, it's out there. You know, Father Andrew Apostle is probably the, you know, sort of like the meekest of them,

sort of the gentle lamb, but if he dug in, he dug in. And it was like, if he's convinced about something, and you gotta think, what do you have to have inside of you to have the grit to think about doing what they did? What are the kind of personalities? Exactly. Right, and so all of those personalities now coming together and trying to hammer out

what exactly are we doing? And what is our life supposed to look like in these first chapters? And there's records of this stuff from that are in our, that we have access to his community. And like you've read some is like, holy cow, they talk about like, you come out and there'd be blood on the walls, you know,

like, like trying to wrestle together. I'm sorry, the blood on the walls, inside or outside? Yeah, inside. Inside. Blood. Yeah. I mean, figuratively speaking. Okay. Not literally.

Okay, that's cool. Okay, let's clarify that. So at first I was like, you're talking about gang fights, blood on the outside walls. I'm like, you got Fiars getting into knife fights. Yes, bro. But there was like the wrestling to be able to try and together discern and know what does it look like to respond radically to the gospel and the Capuchin tradition now at this point in the history of the church. And these guys are all totally sold out and all in. And also now Bishop Bob Lombardo,

another like just super capable individual with great capacity, vision, leadership. That's why he's a bishop, auxiliary bishop in Chicago. Who's in the mix as well, Father Robert Stanyan, who was telling me about him. He was a sort of a bi-ritual, you know, Eastern and Latin right priest. He was a brother initially when the community started,

became a priest later. What was his name? Father Robert Stanyan. And I suppose last time. St-A-N-I-O-N. Yeah, so probably Robert Stanyan. And so you just have a cast of characters. There's this other guy, Joe Nolan, who was there.

I'm trying to think there was one more that I'm, oh, Father Pio Mendado, yeah. So Father Pio Mendado is the other one. So all of these guys, and each of them had sort of a different angle on like Franciscan life that was their emphasis. Father Benedict was like really always wanting to put it back to the poor and evangelization.

So kind of the mission-oriented part. You had some of the brothers that were more emphasis was on like material poverty and simplicity. Others, it was like the fraternal dimension. Others that were more like the contemplative, aromidical part of the inheritance. So each of them came with their sort of part of the life that was really important to them. And then now we need to make a life out of this. So just, you know, I mean, so it's the Holy Spirit,

and this is Father Benedict, that's what he says, this is a work of God, because it was so tenuous. I mean, they had no canonical status for the first year and a half. They were just basically, they weren't laicides, the priests weren't, but they were out of vows. They were men without a home. They didn't have any official identity

in the life of the church. They were just sort of under the shadow and the wing of Cardinal O'Connor to like exist and be here, but you don't actually exist as anything and you just left the one thing that was your life and vocation, which was being a friar, a Capuchin. They have their faculties though, right? They have faculties as priests.

Are they allowed to celebrate mass for the public? Yeah, but they were like, you know, like they had to surrender their habits. They had to, like, I mean, it was like a radical and then they, they chose and discerned new habits, which is why we have the gray, the original color. I mean, that's not like a dig. It's just sort of is go to a CC and you'll see it. Francis's habits there.

It's not dyed. Exactly. So it was the sign of like the poorest material that would be used by the the poor the destitute would be Undyed wool which was like a grayish Where something that makes sense to wear it's like these franciscan no offense to these beautiful franciscans that I meet Who are wearing these things you're like this is this isn't made for life You'll rip it. You're not warm enough. Yeah, well there's definitely some ripping and tearing that does happen, but that's where patches come in.

And Francis actually, I love this about him because we were talking about authenticity before and sort of like being real. And Francis would say, he's like, if I have a patch on the inside of my habit, I wanna make sure there's one on the outside. Why? And he says, because I don't want people to be unaware

that I have more padding inside to the cold. Oh, I see. That somehow, that there would be something disingenuous that people know that like, so there was something about him, he was like this preoccupation with authenticity was part of his life. He was like, you know,

that's why when he got up to preach, sometimes he would literally like of his life. He was like, you know, that's why when he got up to preach, sometimes he would literally like confess his sins. Because he says, I don't want you to think that I'm some great saint. Look what I just did. You know, and somebody comes up and lauds him as, you know, Il Santo, right? As he's coming into town and he says, you know,

be careful what you say. I could still father children yet. A man who's just like in touch in a really beautiful way. Yeah, so the habit is part of that expression for him. I share this because I think it's important for people to hear who are watching this video and are wanting to contact the Friars of the Renewal. I was chatting with a bishop who was a Franciscan

while I was discerning with the Capuchins in Australia. And he said to me, don't be, and it's strange that he said this to me, but he said, maybe it's not strange. Don't be afraid if you're attracted to us because of the habit. And I thought, oh, I am, that's really good to hear because I was so afraid that was too superficial.

And he said, it's like a woman, you meet a woman, she got beautiful eyes. That's not why you marry her, but it's okay that that attracts you. And I thought that was a really good advice. Yeah. I mean, there's something that we speak about in formation with the guys, and even in some of the discernment process, as we tell them, it was like,

the reason why you have come here is not the reason why you will stay. Yeah. And there's a discovery, a deepening of like the call, because at the end of the day, like, man, this way of life, I mean, I tell people, I'm like, listen, if Jesus hadn't called me, you can sure as heck bet that I would be living in Georgia where I could get boiled peanuts whenever I want pulled pork barbecue and watching Georgia Bulldogs. You know, it's like the grace to live the vocation is only there if the call is there. And if it's just something on the surface that's drawn me and it's not truly the spirit, then that'll come out and that's just fine

because discernment is like, all right, I'm trying to figure this out. And you know that the call is there because you've been ordained, do you know what I mean? It's not like you continue to question whether the call's there, it's like me, like I know I'm married to my wife. Oh yeah. I'm committed to her regardless of the temptations

because we are married. Yeah, there's a clear commitment that's made. I don't have to be internally looking in every day to see, am I cool to this? No, you are, because you've been married, because you're a priest. I mean, you know this, like, yeah, this gift has been given.

So get on your knees and beg for the grace, brother. Amen. Well, I'll tell you a story, bro, that I think is just something that's helped me or is a part of my journey. Because speaking of that, so 10 years into my religious life, I got to this point where I realized,

like in my heart, this longing for family and for intimacy and for love was just growing. And I realized, I was like, I don't know that I'm actually gonna be able to be faithful until death to what I made vows to do. And it was just kind of like a frightening moment of like, what does that mean? Like, what does it mean that I'm not sure

if I can actually live what I said I would live? And at this time in the month after sort of in the crisis point, I was able to go on pilgrimage providentially to Medjugorje. And I showed up there without any expectations, but a lot of openness. And had some profound experiences of like our ladies presence for me in my heart in different ways.

But I went to confession when I was there, which is probably one of the most powerful graces I received. No matter what else may or may not be happening, there's a lot of people being reconciled to the Lord through confession there. And I went to confession and I poured out my heart to this priest who was an Irish priest.

And I just said, it's like, father, it's like, I know in my heart, like what I've said yes to, I can't live. And I feel like I'm failing all the time. Like interiorly, it's not like running off and acting in some way, but I just feel like I'm failing all the time. Like, interiorly, it's not like running off and acting in some way, but I just feel like I'm constantly failing to truly have an undivided heart given to Jesus Christ.

And I don't know what to do. And so this Irish priest starts laughing. Bro, you wanna talk about, I'm choleric sanguine, so the choleroric side came out. We're just like, what the just like, dude, I'm going to like cold clock you right now. This is not it. There's not a screen between us. I was like, he's like, he's like, ah, sounds like you're hitting yourself a check that

you can't cash. And I looked at him like, yeah, I was like, yeah, I did. He was like, you know what you need, son? You need a good co-signer. Why don't you ask our lady to co-sign that check, and then I think it'll cash just fine. That is beautiful. And I'm just sitting there, and I'm just like,

I just started weeping. Wow. Just started weeping. I'm sorry I wanted to punch you. You know, I know. Really, I was like, you don't, you know, I know, I really, I was like, you don't know how close you were to a black guy. But I'm like, I'm sitting here just realizing,

I was like, I've been trying to do this on my own. And no vocation is meant to be lived on our own. We make promises to something that's impossible regardless of what the vocation is. Yeah. Impossible for us. Yeah. And just realizing all of a sudden it was like I have this recourse, this resource, this power through my mother who I can run to and say listen like I I want to run to another woman right now I'm running to you give me the grace to be faithful to your son Jesus.

Give me the grace not to betray the Lord. And I don't know how to explain it, but it's like, it's real. Because a shift in my heart happened in that moment, in that time, and it has been there since. And all of a sudden like a Freedom and I was like what the heck is going on? I was like you're absolutely beautiful drop-dead gorgeous but like beautiful in a different way to me than you were before okay and like

seeing with like the eyes of the father and This is one of the only like the real grace I'd specifically asked for this grace and priesthood was to be able to see people with the eyes of the father And it's like this paradigm for like when I sense that movement in my heart that wants to grasp At that beauty for myself Or to grasp for something that I feel like i'm wanting from this person in this relationship It's like father. Let me see this person as you see, give me eyes to see your daughter the way you do.

And when he gives that grace, it's like, I mean, you're a father, right? It's like, you look at your children, it's like there's a disinterested, like sacrificial self-giving love that's in the heart of an authentic father For his children. He's not looking to get anything from them any in as much as he does There's a perversion of his paternity that's happened, right?

But when you look at them with that real love of a father's heart, it's like I would do no harm to you I want nothing from you. I'm rejoicing in you and I'm only asking the question, what can I do to bless you? Beautiful that that's a grace that was given to you, something you didn't orchestrate. It sounds like a real gift. And yet given that you're a man who can still father children, so we should pray for you and I could still abandon my wife. So we should pray for me, right? Then how do you deal with the perversions that rear their heads? I mean, this is, I think it's so important to recognize. It's not one and done.

It's like this daily battle. No, well, that's where the grace, I'm talking about like, now I know who to ask to co-sign when the check is bouncing. Gotcha. I'm like, oh crap, not gonna, that's definitely not a cash in today, you know? Some days it's cash in on its own, maybe. I mean, it probably never really is,

but I might think that it is. But there's some days where you're just like, I'm struggling, the struggle is real right now. And so what do I need to do? And, you know, there's some beautiful devotions connected with Our Lady in chastity. And one of them that I turn to is just praying three Hail Marys. And, you know, so I'm like, as I said, I'm like ADHD. So I'm not the guy who's going to go to heaven because I said the same prayer every day for my whole life. I was like, I'm just not, I'm too sanguine for it. Right. I was like, I, so, but there's like prayers that are part of like a sort of Rolodex. And when I encounter a situation, this is the one I turn to. And so when I'm struggling in that area of like purity of heart or chastity,

I'm down on my knees literally. And I'm like, Mary, I ask you for the grace of purity of my mind, of my heart and my body. And I pray three Hail Marys. And she's faithful. I don't know how else to say it. Like I just keep coming back. And if I feel like I failed

This is where the sacrament of confession is there, you know, it's like, isn't that great? It's amazing I mean, I'm just like are you serious like you're gonna forgive me again and the Lord sort of like yeah, it's called infinite mercy You know, like I was like, you know, it's like that infinite mercy is like I don't care what I've done and how many times I've done it. It's always finite 70 times 7. Yeah This is cool because with this is wisdom that was taught to you But it's something that if you were told before you knew it say in Medjugorje You would have nodded sagely to it. Oh, yeah, that's what's so interesting. Yeah, you can know things and not know them It's kind of like that what you said to the postulants or what they say that the reason

you stays and the reason you came. And even that, I'm sure I've run nods sagely to you. Oh yeah. The Lord has to somehow put it inside of your head and heart. Yeah. And it becomes part of you. And that's what I tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called strive 21.com slash mat. You go there right now or if you

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But it's something that if you were told before you knew it, say in Medjugorje, you would have nodded sagely to it. Right. Yeah. Like I said, thately to it. Right. Yeah. Like that's what's so interesting. Yeah. And you can know things and not know them. It's kind of like that, what you said to the postulants or what they say that the reason

you stays and the reason you came. And even that I'm sure ever nods sagely to you. Yeah. And the Lord has to somehow put it inside of your head and heart. Yeah. And it becomes part of you. And that's why the desert is a gift. Okay.

So where is it that I learn that I'm not the one who can provide for all my needs in the place where any recourse externally to something other than the one who's the giver of all good things is possible is taken from me. Like desolation can serve as a revelatory moment in the journey of the light. The spiritual writers talk about these sort of dark nights,

but there's moments in the providence of God where he lets us go into the desert to teach us that he is the living water and to teach us that he is the bread of life, the manna that's given and that catechetical lesson, that sort of pedagogy happens again and again throughout the course of life. And it's funny because I've just experienced this like all these years of following Jesus

and then all of a sudden he, he allows us to come to a plateau where I'm like, I feel like I got this man, like I'm rocking this like discipleship thing, this friar life, I'm a great priest. It's like, this is wonderful. And then all of a sudden, like he'll pull back that grace that was sustaining me and let me just like fall flat on my face to learn again that, oh yeah, it's you.

It's actually always only been you. Jesus mercy, help me. And then rising again and meeting the eyes of Jesus who always comes to save and not to condemn as he says in the gospel, I'm filled with hope that you know what, like as much as I'm sort of like sucking right now at my vocation in life.

Jesus is here with me to give me what I lack and the gift of his love through the power of his spirit will do something in me that I can't do for myself. And you realize that it's like, I don't know. I mean, you might not have this, I just so often fall back into self-reliance and this kind of like thought that somehow I'm like, I'm doing it.

And that poverty that Francis, I love that about St. Francis, is he was a man who once he discovered the riches of the poverty of Christ, remained poor throughout all of his life because he didn't want to lose even the smallest coin that was to be found in those riches. And so he's like, he's okay with his poverty and he wasn't perfect, it's funny. Like even his life, like people think about him as somehow, you know, he has a conversion and then he lives this amazing life. Well, the reason towards the end of his life that he ends up on Mount Laverna

where the stigma happens is because he'd been rejected by his brothers, was depressed, angry, and had become an emotional recluse to the guys around him because he was suffering and felt like everything he had built was lost and had been taken from him. Well, that's what brings him to the place where stigmata happens. Is that right?

But people don't, you know, like, so like we're, you know, we're always in need of like an invitation and it's kind of this thing where like, you know, like, so like we're, you know, we're always in need of like an invitation. And it's kind of this thing where like, you know, like in the ascetical life, you can only row so far, and then it's gotta be the wind that carries you to the place the Lord desires to bring us, which is into the depths. And so my best efforts at conversion, at like fidelity to God, living

up highest life, doing the stuff, working on virtue, all those best efforts at some point are just totally not enough. And then comes the gift of God's love which invites me to the cross. the gift of God's love, which invites me to the cross. And that cross is what forms in me, the heart of Jesus Christ. We've come full circle to the beginning, eh? Because we began by talking about, it's one thing to talk about esoteric matters, philosophical issues, but the person of Christ, eh?

And so it's like Christianity, you're saying, it's not like a philosophy that I read about, learn and then live. But that's what we sometimes think. And then you hit a wall and you realize, no, there's a person here who's got the help. And that's where honestly, kind of there's a little bit of a topic shift,

but the Eucharistic revival for me is a profound sign of hope in the life of the church because of that very fact. Like there's so many things that are problematic, so many struggles in the life of the church because of that very fact. Like there's so many things that are problematic, so many struggles in the life of the church, in society, politically, socially, there's all sorts of different layers, right? This sort of sense of chaos and storm.

And in the midst of that, it's like, where am I going to look for the answers to the questions that I don't have an answer to? Where am I gonna look for solutions to the problems that I don't have an answer to. Where am I gonna look for solutions to the problems that we can't fix ourselves and just seem to be sort of multiplying them exponentially in the world? It's like there's only one answer and it's not an answer in the sense

of sort of a trite response. It's a person, Jesus Christ. And when you put Jesus in the center, when you return the eyes of the bride to the bridegroom, this is when revival happens. This is when renewal and transformation happens. Falling in love again with Christ, learning again what's in his heart

because my heart is oriented to him in the Eucharist. Learning what church really means right through the beautiful celebration of the liturgy. Eucharistic adoration, something in the Eucharist, learning what church really means right through the beautiful celebration of the liturgy, Eucharistic adoration, you know something in the West, it's a big part of our tradition for our faith in the Eucharist. And this putting Jesus at the center, I think is a, it's like a bold statement of faith on the part of the church, which is like, yeah, the ship's sinking, what are we gonna do? We're gonna pray.

We're not gonna like fall into the sort of like voices and responses of worldly wisdom and logic. We're going to bow down on our knees before the living God and cry out to him, do what we can't do, save us. Bring revival. Revival is a participation in the resurrection. The revivification of the flesh of Jesus leads to this revivification of my humanity, but to the bride herself, the church. And so it's like, this is what it's about. It's about Jesus as a person. Do you remember that advertisement for Apple phones?

There's an app for that. And I think we often live like that. You know, our lives get increasingly complicated and we think that there's a there's a way out of it that's going to require not a poverty in any other area of my life, but just an addition. I'll keep adding things and things will keep they'll get better. And if they're chaotic, there's an app for that. And yeah, but like sometimes it's like a poverty silence.

It's like, no, no, delete the app. There's too many things, go back. Yeah, amen. Because the reason why silence is so powerful is because silence is the expression in my embodied existence of bending the knee of my very being before the creator.

And so I'm here in this posture of absolute dependence, absolute poverty, absolute trust, that we don't wait in vain when we wait upon the Lord, right? And that silence is an expression, right, of this all before who he is and an awareness of who we are. Both in like my littleness, but also that I've been called into this relationship. It's just like, wow! Yeah, explore that with me a bit more. I'd like to understand that silence. Silence. This is good, because in a way, what came to mind as you were saying, that is, silence and inactivity when done intentionally, like an admission that I can't fix this, there's nothing I can add here.

Is that kind of what you mean or no? Yeah, and also, right, the line that's often quoted right from one of the Psalms, I think it's Psalm 47, I might be wrong about that, but I'm terrible with numbers. I was a lit major, so. But it says, be still, right, and we cannot be still. And know. And know that I am God. And I think there's sort of like a parentheses

that I would put in there that I sort of add for myself, and you're not. Like know that I'm God and you're not, and know that I'm a God who has love. And so therefore you can rest in me. You can be still with me. The whole problem of like the freneticism that exists in the world is in part sort of the,

some of it's like a fleeing from that silence. But I also think even this sort of humbling of ourselves as human beings, which is expressed through the observance of the day of rest, the Lord's day has been lost. And we live our lives as if everything was up to us. to the observance of the day of rest, the Lord's day has been lost. And we live our lives as if everything was up to us. And if I do more, produce more, make more, say more, say more. And the expression of rest that's sort of, if you will,

a certain type of stillness in relationship to activity is what the Sabbath is entering into. A posture of like, I'm just going to go play today with my children and I'm not going to do anything. And that is saying that, you know, why I can do that and not have to worry about whatever might be waiting in my inbox or waiting at work is because guess what? I have a good and loving father. Yeah.

I can, he's gonna take care of me. Like I literally don't have to worry about it. That's not irresponsible. It's actually looking at reality through the lens of the fullness of the truth of who God is and who we are. It's seeing things in their whole context. It's not saying I don't have a massive to-do list. It's saying I have a God who's bigger than my to-do list and who loves me and who said, set that down and come be with me. And that's expressed through the rest of the Sabbath.

But then there is the other aspect is, is like set this down, stop speaking. I remember part of my own conversion and call to the priesthood and the friar life was connected with silence. And I remember I was a young adult finishing college. I thought that it was like, you know, I had what I would call like my Catholic merit badge sash. You know, it was like, you know,

doing morning and evening prayer, litururgy the hours praying a daily rosary Most days making it to mass multiple holy hours a week youth ministry mission trips It was like I had all this stuff that I was doing right and a plan for my life Which was it I was gonna be going to grad school at University of Georgia. Go dogs. Come on There's a lot to root for there these days. But all these doors opened up for me to go to graduate school. And it was like, I got into the right program,

got a fellowship, and a good friend of mine was starting simultaneously another program. So I had a roommate at UGA. Everything was set out, it was like red carpet. And somebody who I was talking to was asking me about my plans and I told them that and then told them I also hope in my breaks to be able to do mission work.

And this friend of mine, she just looks at me and says, well, why don't you forget about school and just go be a missionary? I was just like, is you not here? Like there's all these opportunities that are in front of me and, but I couldn't let go of it. And so I went to Adoration and I'm there in front of Jesus and I start just in front of Jesus

and I start just getting angry about this like lack of peace about the path I'm on. And I say, God, just I'm tired. Like I'd been in seminary before this. I was a seminarian for a year with my diocese, discern that wasn't it. I thought for a moment, gonna get married, that wasn't it. And I was just in this like limbo land.

Like if people have ever done like a lot of discerning, sometimes you just get to the point where you're just like, that wasn't it. And I was just in this limbo land, if people have ever done a lot of discerning, sometimes you just get to the point where you're just like, I'm just done. All right, I'm tired of trying to figure this out. And I'd tell Jesus, I'm like, one of those moments of sincerity, I'm like, dude, would you just tell me, what is it I'm supposed to do with my life?

Why are you making it so complicated? Why won't you tell me what your will is? And I just saw, you know you kind of get that out there. And then I heard in my heart, the Lord say, you don't know my plan and you don't know what I desire for you because you will not listen. And I came back to my Catholic merit badge, right? And started naming all the things that I did.

And the Lord like so mercifully, and I just, again, this is interior in my heart, I'm not hearing locutions or whatever. I'm not like a crazy mystic. But my heart just heard in this moment, Jesus say, you do all of this and you ask me what I want and you tell me what's in your heart, but you will not sit in the silence to listen

for my response. And it was just this moment of like scales falling. And I just realized my spiritual life was so full of me and there wasn't space for him. Even though it had all the external trappings of awesome Catholic spirituality. And so I just started doing this kind of like deal. I just started going to adoration and I'm like,

I'm not taking anything with me. I'm just going to go sit. And it was really distracting at first and difficult, but in this silence was a place where all of a sudden I just heard the Lord. It was a couple of months after this of just sitting in silence before the Eucharist. And then just one day in just this place of peace and rest, I just heard Jesus say to me there, if you follow the path you're on, I will bless you and be with you. But if you do not, I have something better for you. And it was like this peace and joy. And I'm like, this is like I've been waiting, Lord, just to like hear you. And when you hear his voice,

when you hear the voice of Jesus, your heart knows it. It knows it because we're meant to hear the voice of the good shepherd. And it just like set me free interiorly and gave me this joy. And I'm like, all right, Lord, what do you got? And there was, there was radio silence. Like all all I knew was he said let go of all this and then you know got something better and it left me in a moment of like alright Lord what do I do

and so I I just said alright like after wrestling talking to my spiritual director I was like I know that was him and I don't know what it means but I'm I've got to follow that voice and that voice is only something I ever was able to hear in silence. And it was a few months later on a silent retreat at a monastery of Trappist, Meckin Abbey down in South Carolina, where three days of silence, not just a holy hour, but now three days of silence and in nature, where I've always loved to meet Jesus. There was, again, a revelation in my heart

where in that stillness and rest, the Lord just showed me that amidst many desires, the thing that my heart wanted most was to just live for Him. And I was like, sweet, let's do it, come on. And that was the fruit of silence. And I think the world, right? There's so many ways in which like we're filled

with so much noise, but that silence is, it can be frightening and it's a poverty, but there is the place where I discover, right? The truth of who I am, right? One is I am a poor beggar. That's the first movement. Mass starts, the liturgy starts that way. I'm a sinner.

I come in this way. But then what happens? God himself addresses himself to me as a creature, which means I'm calling you in a relationship. But we don't get to hear that invitation without staying in the poverty of that silence. But in that place, man, when he speaks, yo, this is what changes history, changes reality.

So I want to say similar to suffering in that if it's done well, it's receptive, eh? Because I like to tell the Lord, here's my plan of life. Here's the things that I'll do for you. I'll pray this prayer and I'll do this thing. And all of that's beautiful. And it's almost like the Lord is doing something to me through suffering while I'm coming up with my own plan. And I'm trying to bat that away so I can get about the business of becoming holy.

Absolutely. As opposed to turning around and trying to receive that with His grace, receive that suffering. It's almost like He speaks to us in that poverty of silence, but also the poverty of suffering. Oh, yeah. I don't like that at all. Yeah, one thing I don't like is when the Lord tells you to wait. I Like when he says yes, I don't like him and he says no I hate it when you just get the sense I'm doing a new thing. Do you not perceive it? Yeah There's a psalm that says in silence and in rest lies your strength, okay?

I've just been it's I think that I read I was reading recently that wonderful little book Searching for a maintaining. Oh, yeah by father Jacques and I believe incredible. I believe that's quoted within that. Mm-hmm It's just such an important point that the Lord desires us to have peace. And that often we think that the spiritual battle is about something else, when often the spiritual battle is about maintaining our peace so that we can see clearly. What do you say to people though who are listening and think, well, easy for you to say, Father, you don't have children. You might have loud music outside your window, but you've got structured time for prayers

that you're made to go to. I've got to work two jobs or I've got structured time for prayers that you're made to go to. I've got to work two jobs or I've got this many children and life's hard, man. Like how, what do I do? What do I do to carve out time for, for, for peace, for rest, for quiet? Yeah. In a busy kind of life. And maybe they're letting themselves off the hook. Maybe they don't realize just how full your life is. Right. But yeah, I mean, it's there are days, right?

Where like I show up to holy hour and I'm like, oh my goodness, because I was doing some ministry or working and doing some, I didn't pray my daytime prayer yet. You know, like I know that sounds small, but like for religious where my life is built around this life of prayer, it's like things happen. And you know, it was like, you know,

sometimes you have to really like look at like, what's the greater good here and not to judge people, but just to say like, okay, what am I really looking for? What is prayer? Prayer is my heart, encountering the heart of Jesus, which is a revelation of the heart of the Father in the power of the Spirit. And so if that's what it is, I can pray anywhere and anytime. Now I get it.

You got kids screaming, it's like, I'm about to go nuts right now, right? But St. Francis said this, he said, I will make my heart my hermitage. And he was torn between living a more aromidical life and being with people. What does that a more like aromidical life and like being with people and what does that word mean aromidical aromidical so it's it comes from sort of a way of life that's going into the desert and having a life of solitude and prayer um and and so the aromidical life would

be a more contemplative life a life that's maybe lived in a hermitage apart. You can think of the guy who's in a, you know, like a little hut in a mountain. Yeah, Anthony of Egypt. Yeah, so there's different forms of it, but at its heart, it's this contemplative life of separating oneself into a place of silence. In the East, you would have like kind of Pustinia

would be an expression of that. So this air medical life is like, he's like, I'm gonna make my heart my hermitage. And I do think it's possible. And I think one thing I tell people first off is, is like to just take stock of my life and just ask myself, where are there things that I'm doing by myself that I could start doing with Jesus so I'm doing laundry by myself I could do laundry with Jesus and

I'm a mom and guess what the laundry never ends you know I'm I'm working and I'm involved with my work I'm a husband I'm involved with my work. I'm a husband, I'm providing for my family. It's like, and I, and you know, like I was a carpenter before I was a friar. And like one of the, one of the things is like, I realized at work, like one of the places that I was able to just be alone, even though I was around people,

was when I was working on a table saw. So you're totally focused, nobody's gonna bother you. Sometimes you have ear gear on it and you're just, you're totally focused. Nobody's going to bother you. Sometimes you have your gear on it and, and you're just, you're cutting wood and you're just doing this activity to which you're very attentive. You cut your thumb off. Right. So it has to be a very specific, mindful, but I realized that Lord you're here. And so all of a sudden like cutting on the table saw became a place where, as I'm pushing this through,

I'm asking Jesus, please don't let me cut my fingers off, but I'm also just like, thank you, Jesus, praise you, Jesus. I pray in tongues, I'd ask the Holy Spirit to come. It was a moment of encounter that was in the midst of the activity of building a house. I think there are places in our lives where we're doing things alone and Jesus is wanting to meet us there.

And that's something that, it doesn't matter what my life is and what it looks like, I can begin to just ask that question, Lord, where is there something I'm doing alone that you wanna do with me? Because my heart meets you, I'm praying, even if I'm not on my knees in the Adoration Chapel. And that might not be a real possibility

for somebody for seasons of life, you know? Got a lot of friends with a lot of kids, you know, in the second of eight in my family. It's like, sometimes you have to like, ask yourself, like, what does holiness look like now at this moment? My wife once gave advice to a new mother who was upset about the fact that she could no longer go to Adoration and pray the way she used to and she was like, sister

your holy hour, it's two in the morning when you're breastfeeding your child. She's a much wiser woman than I am. She's a good woman. It'd be awkward if you said that too anyhow. What's that? I said it'd be awkward if you said that too anyhow. If I said what what the advice about the two in the morning? Yes, that would be very awkward yeah, no, she's she's so good and It's almost like it takes as much faith to believe that the sufferings We're encountering are from the Lord and that he'll bring all to good then it takes to believe that that wafer is The second person of the Blessed Trinity, you know

is the second person of the blessed Trinity, you know? It's like, it does take faith. It does. Or the faith that I can do this with Jesus. I can do the laundry with Jesus. Well, St. Francis had insight to that. Insight? Insight to that. Okay.

And it was, he writes, there's a series of exhortations he gave to his brothers called the Abmonition. So amongst his writings, and the first admonition has everything to do with the body of Christ, literally. It's sort of like reverence for the body of Christ. He's talking about receiving the Eucharist and the way that we receive the Eucharist and faith in the Eucharist.

And he has a beautiful insight where he says that it is impossible to discern the reality that is before us except in the spirit. And then he goes on to make a comment, which just like opens up a window of like understanding. He says, the disciples were only able to discern the word of God made flesh in Jesus when he walked among them because the Holy Spirit revealed it to

them and similarly it is only the Holy Spirit who can reveal to us the truth of who is present in the Eucharist and the same I believe this is like blaze Pascal I think he's yeah Pascal said something like that that no it correct me if I'm wrong in the comments, but some saw Christ and believed him only to be a man, some saw the Eucharist or see the Eucharist and believe it to be bread. Yes, and I mean, and it's so clear, like, yeah, right, like just tradition, the Father's regard to like, this is no mere bread, right?

But the same struggle that there is with faith in the Eucharist is the same struggle we encounter when we look at suffering, the same struggle that I encounter when I'm in my concrete struggle in my marriage right now. And it's like, how is that? Where are you here, God? And it's all tied to and originates in this mystery of the incarnation,

which is a passion and an obsession for St. Francis, which is that God is so near, so humble that he comes to us in this way, but to believe that this could be true, that this is actually like that this little, you know, we were so being removed from it is easier in some ways. I think, yeah, like if I was walking around with Jesus and he's like, Hey, I'm just going to hit head and I'll be back. I'd be like, there's no way. That's the what? Yeah. That's not God. Yeah. I mean, and I mean, you think about it, it's like even our lady, right? Who perfect faith,

perfect woman. It's like, there was an ongoing exercise of the gift and grace of faith that she's making before the mystery of this child that she's raising and seeing in the intimacy of the home. And it's like, that is way too, you know, like dirty diaper, like son of God, really? I mean, I know that something happened and I don't know how to explain it, but that's you? You're this close, you're this real,

you're this intimate and present, and also, right, I think the same thing happens with the cross, it's the disciples who stand in the face of that moment where it's like, okay, like we're totally cool with you healing people, raising the dead, multiplying, let's do that, let's hit the repeat, come on, go! And you know, like Lazarus, come out.

But the cross, the apparent failure in the eyes of the world, suffering, mockery, shame, you know, it's like nakedness, all powerlessness in the standards that the world puts before. It's like all of that's like, whoa, that's way too close. But here's the thing is, is if Jesus is not truly God and truly there in that place on the cross of the depths of human suffering, darkness, evil, rejection, and death, then when I'm there, I'm alone. And I think worse than any suffering, and I've worked a lot with hospital ministry,

prison ministry, and just pastoral ministry as a friar with the poor. And one of the most tremendous sufferings that human beings ever can know is feeling alone in their suffering. The pain itself is real and it's not to negate or to sort of downplay, but the worst experience is that I'm here,

I'm alone, no one sees, no one sees, no one knows, no one understands, no one cares. And the fact of Jesus coming into that space, allowing all of a sudden like this to be a point not of isolation and loneliness but a place of communion, transforms from the inside, right? But like that's you doing that Jesus? Like that takes faith. But that's not something that we can conjure up. And I just, you know, like it's not like I just got to believe more, you know? This is a gift. And if faith is a gift and it's something that's given to us, this revelation is given to us by the power

of the Holy Spirit, then I encourage people, Holy Spirit, open my eyes to the truth, the reality of what's before me, whether it's in the Eucharist or in the suffering that I'm facing in my life or the crisis in my marriage or my own struggles of my sin that I just can't break out of. Like, Holy Spirit, give me eyes to see. And again, like when you meet him there and you see him, like everything changes. And it's not something I can explain with words, but this reality who is a person who has a name, Jesus Christ, when you meet him transforms everything.

And all of a sudden, like just this wafer deal becomes the most profound, humble act of self-gift that the Father makes to us in an ongoing way. In the body, blood, soul, and divinity of his Son in the Eucharist, you know? And suffering becomes not meaningless, but this sort of like powerhouse, you know, this source of tremendous grace

because it's a source of intimate communion with Jesus on the cross. And all these places are moments of like communion, like Jesus is there waiting for us. Like, it's kind of the crazy thing about the incarnation is like, yo, like the entire cosmos was just like transformed. I remember being in the Holy Land,

walking up the steps to the beautiful gate that we hear about in the gospel. And like sitting on these stones when they're like, there's no doubt that these stones are the original steps that would have been here at the time of Jesus. So my man walked in and out of this gate and I'm just sitting there and I'm just like, what would it have like what a

creation think with like every step the creator just like being Just like radiating out every step up the Asia's like whoa Everything changed with the incarnation And and that's the good news, right? This is the gospel that we preach. I wanted to go back in order to move forward to what we were talking about a moment ago, about the friars of the renewal and the kind of the foundational story or the myth. I don't mean that in the false sense, but there's a story y'all have, which you tell yourself, which sustains and directs who you are as friars,

right? You enjoy, I'm sure, talking about the origins of the friars of the renewal and what it was like and what happened. And like that story sort of grounds you and gives you identity. And to make, to give a secular example, I think this group called the Daily Wire do a really good job at that as well. You know, Caleb and Ben and the other fellow whose name I'm forgetting, they talk about how it all began and it seems like that story grounds them, guides them as people come into the

fold of their business and orients them in that direction. So here's the kind of point I'm making and that's that we individually, it seems to me, have to know our mythos story. Because if we don't have a story about who we are and what we're about, everyone around us is going to try to give us our story. So it's almost like you have to define who you are so as not to be defined by the demonic, by the world. Some of us grow up in families, and there's a story about that kid. Yeah. Like when I met my wife,

I realized that there was a story about the kind of person she was within her family. And I wanted to be like, oh, my love, no, that's not you. Like, that's too limited. You're this, you know? Or you're the black sheep of the family, you're this, like there's stories, right?

And I just think it's really important that we know that we are the beloved of God, and we keep coming back to our story, because what will the world say to us, right? You're good in as far as you are useful, or beautiful, or smart, or something like that. And then when you don't measure up to that, the shame that comes from that,

but the importance of sitting before the Lord and letting him tell us who we are. Yeah, well interestingly I did a in seminary a thesis on the Catholic response to the gender ideology issue and just had an opportunity to just deep dive on the topic, but most importantly and what was the greatest gift was hearing the stories of a number of different Catholics who experienced gender identity, discordance, dysphoria, and who are seeking to try and follow the Lord in the midst of that experience and recognize this like this, that part of the struggle for humanity right is that loss of the sense of identity.

And this question that Jesus asked right? I think is the one that he wants us to ask him So this question he asked in Matthew 16 where he says who do you say that I am? to the disciples Mm-hmm, and I and I just is praying with it and thinking about these brothers and sisters I was like, oh he wants us to ask him that question. That's good. Yeah. He wouldn't ask a question that would be then unfair to turn it around.

Yeah. Real quick, real quick. Yeah. See, as the conversation ended and the Jesus and the decision, real quick, just quick, who do you say his name? Yeah. Like, can you, you know, and, and the story that, that we need to know is the one that Jesus reveals to us about who we are in the letter of the Ephesians. Like I'm not even who I say I am.

Yeah. Well, this is one of the things like, yeah, like the human heart, Jeremiah says the human heart is something that is a mystery. It's torturous. Who can understand it? God alone. And so this like, that includes my own heart. Like it's something that we talk about like in the culture,

like, you know, I'm like, I'm gonna define who I am. I'm gonna follow my heart. I am going to sort of write my own story. I'm sort of this self creating autonomous being in the world that can be whatever I want. But the reality is, is if I'm really honest, I don't even know myself fully. There's something inside me that's like a mystery inside of me. Because I'm not a good enough Catholic.

I have to look up these verses from time to time. First, John three, 20, if our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts and he knows everything. So I'm not. I don't know if I know St. Francis as well as GK Chesterton, Mother Teresa are the place that all unattributed quotes go to die. So I don't know if this is from Francis or not but somebody said we are who we are before him

and nothing else. That is actually Francis, it's in his writings. So you're golden on that one. We don't have to throw that one in the trash bin. But that's what we're talking about. So it's in one of his admonitions actually, those exhortations I was talking about. And it's actually, he's writing against kind of hubris

and pride and sort of vainglory and this kind of attempt to define ourselves. And he's so real, it's hilarious. He's like, even if you were a good speaker, even if you were super intellectual, even if you were very attractive. And he goes through all this. Yeah, he's writing to his brothers.

He's like, here are all these things. He's like, none of this you could claim for your own. He says, the only thing we can claim right is our poverty and our sin. And then he says, and then he goes on, right? And he says, what a man is in the eyes of God that he is and nothing more. And what that is is loved. Yeah. Dependent. Yes.

And loved in a way that we're even like unwilling to accept. We fight that kind of unconditional love. We want to be like, but yeah, I want to be respected. Yeah. And, and I want to prove that I'm worth it. And it was like, no, like actually my love is what makes you worthy. It's not that you're worthy and therefore you're loved. And this is like Ephesians reveals this chapter one, you find this phrase, it just like struck me. It was like, before the foundation of the world,

depending on the translation or creation of the heavens and the earth, you were chosen in Christ for holiness and destined in love to be a child of God. Well, if it's before the flip and foundation of the world, guess who had nothing to do with it? It's like, this guy, right? It's like, no way. So, I think that that's something that we have to relinquish this false idea of the self-made man that's kind of this inherent heresy

of American pragmatism, I would call it. And this is something that we have to let go of in order to receive a much greater truth, which is that the Lord Himself has made us worthy and digno, I just said it in Spanish, sorry. I was like, worthy of his love By the virtue of the fact that he loves us It's this mystery. We're like he has said i'm worthy because he's created me in such a way that i'm capable of receiving his love

And he has offered that love in its totality as a free gift to me through Jesus Christ, who in order to be able to receive it has offered his life on the cross. And my part is to do what? To receive. Will I receive the gift? That's kind of like the question. And in receiving the gift, I receive the truth of my identity, going back to story and like knowing where we're from It's like if I know that my ultimate origin story, right is is the heart of the father

Mmm, which is poured out into Creation through his son and the power of the spirit if I know that that's the ultimate origin story Like I'm the fruit of love JP to says something beautiful He says that the origin of everything that exists, we don't find so much a great mind as we find a great heart. And so this is my ultimate, and so like my identity coming back to that, right?

Yeah. And then knowing also, I think salvation history is important, the ignorance of the story of salvation that's present in the world today because people haven't heard it. And then I'm thinking of Revelation chapter 12 verse 10, the accuser who accused them day and night before the throne of God.

Like, I wanna know what those accusations were, but if we don't listen to the Father, we've got other voices speaking to us. Well, it's interesting. Do you know what is cast out? The accuser or brethren is cast out by the blood of the lamb right by the blood of the lamb Okay, so the blood of the lamb cast him out. Yeah, and the testimony. That's right of of the believers

Okay, this is interesting. So it's like it's the blood of the lamb and the testimony So there is a so how is he cast out and this is where coming back to like Being rooted in who I am in Christ allows me to testify in the face of that accusation against it with the truth. It's like your sin is who you are. You're somebody who's a screw up, who's a failure, who's a sinner, who's a horrible person, who no one sees, no one loves, whatever it is. Or even the positive things I wanna put on myself, right?

Oh, you're successful, you're a great businessman, you're a really good speaker, you're a really good athlete. All of that like really is not- That goes away. It does. So here's what it says, then I heard a loud, loud voice in heaven say, now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah. Amen, come on. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters who accuses them before our God. What a prick day and night has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony. They did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Praise God. Come on. The authority. Do you what's what's what's the I mean, the people

around your monastery or friaries must must know of you. Yeah. So I'm sure there are obviously parts of New York where you'd be strange looking. But I'm sure within a circumference of these different friars, people get to know you. Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, unfortunately, right, homelessness is a reality and seems to have grown in recent years across the country. So there's very often at intersections people begging. But I love the fact that I pull up to the intersection and the guy's coming asking and he sees me and he knows he's not gonna get anything from me because he knows the friars.

But I go up and I'm like, hey, how you doing? I was like, hey brother, he's like, good to see you man. I said, listen, he was like, I'm going into rehab tomorrow, pray for me, okay? And it was just like this, in a pray form and give him a blessing, ask him what his name is and offer up a prayer for this guy. It's like I'm walking around in the neighborhood

in the South Bronx, and you've got all these people that are like, total hood gangster, whatever, and they're hanging out in the corner, and you come by, and there's a recognition. It was like, hey, bro, or thanks for what you do.

We have a food hand now, we have a homeless shelter, a youth program. I was just gonna say, I bet the, who the friars are spreads, right? So when you first encounter them, who knows who they are. But if you learn that they're helping, they're helping your neighbors, they're helping your loved ones. Yeah, I remember being in Patterson, New Jersey,

I helped found the friary. And so we're wandering in this neighborhood that's like ground zero for meth at that time, like the movement corridor up into the Northeast. So it was like lots of violence, lots of horrible things going on, lots of dealers and pretty big gang wars that were part of that area.

And we're just like wandering around, like here I am, bearded white dude in the neighborhood. And like somebody coming up is like, hey man, I don't know what you're up to bro, but this ain't a neighborhood you should be in. And I was like, actually I was like, we live here. We just moved in. So, how you doing?

You know, howdy. But after a little bit, like of walking in that neighborhood, at first there was like, you know, I remember there were some people that were sitting on their stoops and they're like, what are you doing here? You know, and you just kind of talk to them again in a way that people are able to receive, begin to proclaim.

Were you afraid at the beginning, walking through places like that? I've only been afraid once in my life as a friar, and it was never in any place in the US. It was in a prison in Nicaragua where I was a missionary. We got to go there now. We got to go. What happened? So I'm there and we're prison chaplains and this prison is built for roughly 900 inmates

and there's about 3,000 that are in it and it looks much more, it's a horrible situation and pray for Nicaragua and especially for Bishop Rolando Alvarez who's in prison, condemned for 28 years a bishop there for standing up for the faith against who the common yeah the government that's there in power so was he given an option to recant to leave how yeah he could have left the country but he said I'm not gonna leave my flock Wow and even if it was Catholicism now illegal in Nicaragua it is not entirely. What's illegal is to speak against the government in any way and the church was one of those voices there

that was speaking out against things that were happening, injustices, etc. And so because he was unwilling to be silent in the face of injustice, they they arrested him. There was other priests who were exiled as a result of that. So like the prisons down there are not, I'm like, this is not any, nobody wants to go to prison there, period. In this prison where we were chaplains, it wasn't where he went to a political prison.

But the one we went to was just- So you were saying it's made for 900 and there's about 3,000 inmates. Yeah. So what does each cell look like? There aren't cells. It's like, I mean, it looks more like what I would expect like Auschwitz or something.

Meaning like barracks that are just stacked like, you know, cordwood, you got people on like three high, you know, just shoved in and there's like a tiny corridor in the center where you can walk. There's nothing growing inside there, no trees. It's just like dirt and kind of little tufts of brown grass. Oh my gosh. And you know, and a lot of violence, a lot of, you know,

it's a rough place and we were chaplains there. Okay, I'm sorry. This story is too good, I need you to slow down. So you went to Nicaragua. Yeah. And then tell us about the first time you were told that this is what you'd be doing and what it was like stepping foot in there.

So I was basically, I was in my temporary vows and I was told you're going to go with our priest who's going to celebrate mass. And then eventually you're going to take over as being kind of the chaplain who's doing catechesis and working with guys inside the prison, including the. What's internal security like there? Well, this is what was kind of a little bit disconcerting to me was, is you go in and the guards, and you know, I mean, to be honest, it's like a lot of the guards are just people that have jobs and they work there and that's their thing.

But we go in and they walk with you and take you through these different lock gates, lock gates, and they're closing them behind you. And then there's a large room that's just open. It's got like burn marks or smoke on the walls. It's a corrugated roof that's made out of, what's that stuff that's illegal that'll give you cancer? Asbestos, there we go.

So asbestos, like old school asbestos that have holes that are pocked in it. So little beads of light, there's no light in there except for some windows that are high up on the wall that are like with the great, you know, the metal bars. And we're there to celebrate mass with the people that are in there. And there's just all these different people in there.

We go in and I'm like looking around and like a lot of shady looking characters and the prison guards walk us in there we come in and then he just like closes the thing behind me locks it and just walks away and I'm just like okay all right no guidance no suggestion yeah and no security and no security I'm just in this room with like 150 prisoners, many of whom were there for like, you know, taking human life, literally, without any judgment,

just facts, you know, and some of them are looking like, I would love to just like skin you alive right now, kind of vibes. And so I'm trying to be- You and somebody else? There's a priest who's there as well. Yeah, you and the priest. Yeah, so I believe it was Father Albert. And so we'm trying to be- You and somebody else? There's a priest who's there as well. Yeah, you and a priest. Yeah, so I believe it was Father Albert.

And so we're there and he starts setting up for mass and he was like, you know, help out with this. And he was like, okay. And I just want you to sit with the people and try and invite people to participate by participating, doing responses and things like that. And they had a group of guys who were doing music, which was awesome.

They had guitarron and the guitar. And it was like a little bit like a had a group of guys that were doing music, which was awesome. They had guitarron and the guitar, and it was like a little bit like a mariachi type of group that were doing music. They were prisoners. But then there's like a group of guys that are there. And I remember like I walked back and they're lining the wall and they're just like all tatted to pieces, you know?

So it was like definitely gang-related guys. And I tried to be like a cheery boy from Georgia who's like, hey, how you doing? It's gonna like, how y'all, you know? Come on, we're doing mass, this is gonna be awesome. And saying all this in Spanish, you know? And one of the guys just all of a sudden just like looks at me and just like death in his eyes

and just like cranks up his middle fingers and give me two middle fingers, just like. And then he just goes. And I'm just like. And I'm thinking around, I'm like, who am I? And it was like, I mean, I was like, oh man, this dude doesn't care about anything and could very well kill me right now.

It was a moment of just like, so I just turned around, I was like, stop being, you know what I mean? We could just keep walking. And went back and got closer to the altar and was there for the rest of mass. And nothing happened in that moment with this, but it was like. Yeah, could've.

Could've, and this guy was like, this type of situation where it's like, he had nothing to lose if he did something to me. He's already in prison, multiple sentences, people go into prison there and sometimes they just never come out. But one of the neat things about that same sort of scenario was flash forward like six months later

and working with some of the men in the prison, we were able to do this retreat. And there was these guys that went to confession for the first time in years. And these guys that received communion for the first time in years. And you could just see the joy and the light in their eyes of being able to find that even in that place,

like Christ was there and he was there for them and he wasn't there to condemn, but to save. And like the grace of redemption, the power of Christ, and there was fires lit in their hearts that even though I left and came back almost seven years after that, those same men were leaders in the prison, evangelizing, set on fire inside this real, like just dark situation, right?

And for me, I love it because it's like, all right, there is absolutely nothing externally that can explain what's happening here when these men's lives, because like everything around them, the culture of their lives, it's like the joy that they had, the peace and this love and desire

to share the gospel inside the prison. It was just like, whoa, man. It's just like a joy to see the truth of the gospel manifest in such a concrete way. I got to tell you guys about my new favorite app. It's called Ascension, and it's by Ascension Press. This is the number one Bible study app, in my opinion. And you can go to ascensionpress.com slash frad go there and so that way they know that we sent you it is absolutely fantastic it has the entire Bible there very well laid out the whole Bible is read to you by Father Mike Schmitz or just sections of the Bible it has the catechism there it's cross-referenced absolutely beautifully it's really

actually quite difficult to explain to you how good this is. Just download it and check it out for yourself. It even has over 1600 frequently asked questions about scripture. So if you go to Genesis 1, you might have a question about evolution. Well, there's a drop down right there. You can read an article that'll help you understand it. I went through it with the guys at Ascension the other day and my mouth, my jaw was just, it was dropped. It was absolutely amazing. It's had tens of thousands of five-star reviews. Again, go to ascensionpress.com slash frad. It also has all of their amazing Bible studies. So I remember back in the day I had a big DVD case of Jeff Kavan's Bible studies. Well, it's all there on the app.

So go download it right now. Please go to Ascensionpress.com slash Fred Father. Great to have you back. Let's do it. You see, yeah. So you've got a few relics there. This is I'll tell you how I got my first relic. I was speaking at a church somewhere and a priest came up to me

when I just received this big parcel of relics and I went, give me one. And you went, oh, OK. So he gave me one. That's awesome. It's not fair that all these priests should have them, but I don't. I got my first one by stealing it. So tell me, how did that happen? Well, I mean, my patron saint is St. Malachy of Armagh,

very obscure as far as general St. Marty Arlegy, history goes, saint who showed up in a general donation of relics to one of our friaries. I saw it, I mean, I guess technically it's maybe stealing in a friar sense, but I saw it and I was like, what the heck? I was like, am I ever gonna see a St. Malachy's relic again? That's wild.

And so I asked somebody who wasn't necessarily the superior of the house, I was like, can I just take this? He was like, yeah, don't worry about that. like relic again. That's wild. And so I asked somebody who wasn't necessarily the superior of the house, I was like, can I just take this? He was like, yeah, don't worry about that. So I like five finger discounted, put it in my bag, got it right here, bam. So this is the one that as I mentioned before the show

is the cleanest relic that I know because forgive me St. Malachy, I am forgetful and it was in my habit when it went into the wash. And it was definitely a real relic because the piece of the- The stamps on the back? Well, the piece of the flesh, there is a stamp on the back too,

but the piece of the flesh was in there, there's papers with it, didn't disappear in the wash. It wasn't like some kind of, you know, it's still there. St. Maliki, pray for us. I have a similar story, but I'm I did something worse than you did.

Oh, no, I'm ashamed of it. But like St. Francis, I'm going to admit to my gilp. There we go. Put it out there. So I was somewhere and somebody offered me a first class relic of Padre Pio. And just like this, you know, yes, please. So I had to fly home. And so I wrapped it up in bubble wrap

and put it in my backpack. When I got home, it wasn't there anymore. Like inside the glass, I couldn't see the fragment of bone. Yeah. On the thing. I'm really I'm really embarrassed about this. So I feel sick just telling you what I did. OK, but so I thought, well, what am I going to do? really embarrassed about this. So I feel sick just telling you what I did. Okay, but so I thought well What am I gonna do? I have the paperwork. It's sealed. I

Opened it up. I opened up the seal. He broke the seal bro seals automatic It's not there. I need to know and that's really weird Breaking a seal and then think going I think this is part of Patrick Pio's bone But now I've lost all credibility because the seals gone could have been part of my bone. Maybe I replaced it So that was him. I was sad about that There's a there's a nice friend of mine who actually said there's someone you can send things to I don't know exactly That's been really good to know. I know I should check out father Jake He's now this one here inside of that reliquary is, is Thomas Aquinas.

And I was thinking it'd be lovely to have a first-class relic of Thomas Aquinas. And I said to Scott Hahn, do you know where I could get a first-class relic of Thomas Aquinas? He said, I wouldn't trust the man who gave it to you. Who would ever give up a first-class relic? Yeah. Well, I had my mate Bob Lesniewski come over to the house. He said, I got a gift for you. I said, all right. And it was in an envelope. And it was, of course, this kind of reliquary, this small circle.

I had no idea what it was, even holding it. I thought it was a bottle cap. I thought maybe it's a beer bottle cap from a beer in Australia. And I was just so moved when I saw what it was. I guess an Orthodox priest who watches pints on the on the down. Yeah, gave it to him to give to me. So thank you to that orthodox priest. God bless him. That's awesome.

What else do you have? So I also have St. Francis of Assisi, a piece of his habit. Lord, praise him. Now, this one actually is quite beautiful. Talk about just kind of providential moments. So I was, I don't know if you've traveled much in the last like year, year and a half.

I have. But the general situation out there with airlines, cancellations, delays. It's brutal. Isn't it brutal? Dude, I mean, like I've been stranded so many places. So many pilots and. Yeah, it's like we're here waiting for this crew to show up from this flight.

So I was out in, I believe this was, I was at Albuquerque or Denver, anyhow, I was out Albuquerque or Denver, somewhere out there west. And I got stuck, there was a delay because this flight wasn't arrived yet. And our crew needed to come from this flight to get on our plane which was sitting there at the gate and they told us you know we're so sorry you're gonna have to lay maybe hour and a half from now so I'm like man so I'm frustrated a little bit right and

so I start walking around just kind of a little bit annoyed and then there was a moment where I just realized I was like okay God like nothing happens by accident you have me here right now. If there's anything you want me to do, like I'm just hoping. And so I just pulled out my rosary, stood up, kind of in a more visible way and just kind of pacing. And it was a little bit of a thorough way between a couple of terminals.

And I'm sitting there just praying my rosary, open to whatever the Lord might want. And then all of a sudden this Middle Eastern looking gentleman like walks like straight up to me and he's like Hello father and i'm like look i'm like Hello, how are you? You know and i'm like father maliki francis confrars the renewal and we start chatting and this man was just getting ready to go To the holy land with his family on pilgrimage. It's from lebanon. Um, so maronite, right?

And we start having this beautiful conversation, and he's like, oh, Father, he was like, I have some things with me, would you bless them? And so he pulls out, and he's got loads of rosaries and holy metals and all this stuff. So I bless everything that he's got. And then his family comes over, and I was like, why don't give your family a blessing?

It was just beautiful. We're here in the airport, just praying over the family asking the Holy Spirit to give them all the gifts they need and especially for their pilgrimage to the Holy Land and then he says father I really think God wants me to give you this and he pulls out a relic of st. Francis of Assisi's and you're like have it and I'm just saying here this is exactly what the love wants. The will of God. So check this out. Alright so like who carries around a relic of like St. Francis's like have it in your like bag while you're traveling. I'm like who is I mean obviously uber catholic let's just get that straight man. Yeah yeah. But a beautiful faithful man

he pulls it out and he was like, Oh yeah. And here's the paperwork. Like not just like, Oh, this might be, it looks old. It's got dust on it, you know? So obviously it's old. Yeah. Who carries around the paperwork for the relic? And he gives them both to me. I'm sitting here and he was like, you know, thank you so much. You're so grateful for this blessing. I just feel like this is just like your face look like at this moment. My face is just like, I, I, I thank, thank you. Like I'm just like sitting here, just looking at, and I'm just like filled with this like sense of man, like if I had just sat there angry in my chair, like, you know,

just like annoyed that I was waiting for an hour and a half, it's never what happened. I stood up, I walked out into a place, made myself visible, and just said, God, whatever you want. So St. Francis came seeking me, and I mean, he's been seeking me for a long time. I mean, obviously I'm dressed like this, so it's like, you know, Franciscan, but- Francis was really, I think, the nose,

the camel nose under the tent for me to become Christian. World Youth Day 2000. That's right. I went agnostic, not really caring, but intrigued by these happy Christian young people. And I remember being in a CC and hearing his story. I almost felt to myself at the time that if Christ had never have come, I would have perhaps made a religion around St. Francis. I was so enamored by him, you know? Yeah. But. I could totally relate.

Tell us about Francis. Yeah. Who was he? Wow. So I think at the heart of it for me, like, right? Like Saint Francis is a man who met the Lord. I know that sounds kind of a simple answer, but he was this young guy who comes from a wealthy

family in northern Italy at this like very unstable time in just like history of the world. It's the transition between like feudal system and the development of this kind of like middle-class merchant part of society that didn't even exist before this. And then you have the kind of hierarchy, well, hierarchy rather, aristocracy, which would be the landed families that would be the ones that controlled cities, controlled politics. And so he was one of the children of this rising merchant class

that would become a future middle class that would undo the kind of feudal system that had existed up till this time. And so he's coming up in this like new world, sort of avant-garde, his dad sells clothing. And so he's coming up in this like new world sort of avant-garde. His dad sells clothing and so he's particularly enamored with just kind of appearance. It's one of the things that Francis to talk about like he loved wearing these beautiful clothes and these different types of cloths that were coming from

especially France was one of the places they would travel to. And he had this like idealistic just like I would say almost just like this like idealistic, just like I would say, almost just like this like fiery love for life that you just wanted to like be with him and follow him. He was a king of the party, literally. They would have like these annual festivals and they would elect a king. Who's getting elected?

This guy. Why? Well, for two reasons. One, he's a lot of fun, right? You want to hang out with Francis. Also, he has a lot of money. So he's paying the bill no matter what we drink. So anyhow, he just had this heart that was magnanimous

and open to life and full of wonder and joy and idealism. And so what did he do? He said, I wanna try and go for sort of the ideal that's before me in my time, my era, which is to become a knight and to have a princess, fight a dragon, the whole deal. And he sets out on this quest to become a knight and to have a princess, fight a dragon, the whole deal. And he sets out on this quest to become a knight in order to win this honor,

in order to sort of prove himself in a lot of ways, but also to follow this ideal and this dream that he had in his heart. And on his way, he gets sick and sort of plan starts to unravel. And while he's sick, he finds himself that night having a dream in which God appears to him. And it's not totally clear to him at this point

that it's the Lord, but the Lord coming in saying, which is it better to follow, the master or the slave? And so he chooses in this moment, you know, to say like, whatever, obviously the master, and then the Lord responds to him, then why are you following the slave? And this becomes like this like provocation for him. He's like, well, what do I do?

I don't wanna follow the slave, I wanna follow the master. He says, go back to Assisi and wait. We talked about before, like waiting, hate waiting, right? Francis is sent back with this like sort of fractured ideal, an unanswered question and all of this desire. And it leads him into this again, the silence, right? He starts seeking the silence.

He starts seeking places of solitude. How is, what's his father's name? Giovanni? Bernardone. Giovanni was his given name. Yeah, Giovanni, he was baptized Giovanni after St. John the Baptist. Well, his father was away.

Yeah, and dad comes back. Comes back from France. Says, you're Frankie, because France is awesome, the Frenchman. Okay, so how did his father respond to his coming back? I mean, that's a very inglorious way to come back. Oh yeah, I mean, dad was, dad at first was like, okay, you know, I wanna be a little bit patient,

but then he began to be frustrated because Francis no longer is interested in sort of the family business as much. He's sort of disconnecting from things around him and then begins to do things his father is embarrassed and ashamed of. And you know, you can kind of get it, like at a natural level,

it's like your son starts acting a little bit crazy and you're trying to like discipline him and bring him back into line and he continues to follow this path. And the path was leading him first to solitude, which led to this encounter with the Lord. There's one point where he goes into a cave in silence and solitude and comes out and one of his companions says, and we don't even know the name of the companion, that he came out of the cave as a man who had been transformed, who had met someone. And this is prior to him gathering people around him? All this is prior to this. He hasn't yet even heard the call,

which becomes kind of the mandate for the way of life he'll follow. That led to him going, selling one of his dad's horses and some of his very expensive cloth in order to have money to be able to give to this poor priest in a little simple chapel of San Damiano. And when he does this, dad goes irate, he goes and he's praying and his dad's coming to look for him. He hides, he's afraid of his father. His dad is like gathering people and saying, my son has stolen things from me, I want justice. And meanwhile, he's here praying in this chapel and he hears the Lord in this

moment before him in the San Damiano cross speak these words to him. He says, Francis, rebuild my church, which as you see is falling into ruins." And this becomes kind of the mandate for him. And initially he interprets it quite literally. So like the chapel he's in is a little bit falling in, you know, kind of like run down. So he goes and he gets mortar, stones, and starts rebuilding. Does this with a few different churches. And meanwhile dad's getting more and more angry because my son's going around begging for stones. He's stolen my horse and sold it.

And so what he says is he says, I'm going to dedicate my life to God. Francis does this. And his father says, I'm gonna take you to the magistrate and ask you to return the things you've taken from me. And he says, you can't do that. My life has been given to God.

And so this looks like. As a father, I fully appreciate where his father is coming from. Absolutely pissed off. Like he was just like, you're driving me nuts, son. And it would seem to like from all extents and purposes, right, the dude might be losing like his screws, right? I mean, like what's going on to this guy?

And so this leads to an encounter in front of the bishop, which is a kind of a famous story in the life of Francis where his father comes asking him to return the things he's taken. And he says in front of the bishop and those that were gathered, before I called Francis, I called Bernardone, my father, Petro Bernardone, from now on, I only have one father, our father in heaven,

and he strips himself of all of this clothing. Pause there. Strips himself. Yeah, we're talking of all. Just imagine me doing that. So don't don't don't do that. Yeah. But imagine you with with France, actually doing that. Yeah. Everyone looking on me like, I mean, it's funny here at Franciscan. We get a lot of enthusiastic Christians, you know. Oh, yeah.

They show up with like wall that what looks to be wall crucifixes around their neck. I appreciate it. I appreciate the fervor. Yeah, come on. But it's a bit. But I love this because it kind of It shows us that that that that heart that wild heart is he's like all in yeah I mean in the most radical way and the thing that happens at that point right is like He's naked and the bishop comes and takes his cloak and puts it over him. Everybody's like, thank you Jesus You know, he's not thinking anymore. Appreciate the more strip. He's the first like and puts it over him. Everybody's like, thank you, Jesus. He's not naked anymore.

Appreciate that. And more striptease than Francis. And the friendship's like, and you can keep that? Yeah. But then he takes a simple cloak and a belt that he puts around him, which is the sign of basically like a kind of a pilgrim mendicant.

And he takes off. And he's got no plan. And he is filled with his joy. Now he's a romantic idealist. And so what does he do? He starts traipsing through these woods and he's singing French love songs. What a guy.

And he's just filled with this tremendous joy. Then he's attacked by these robbers. And these robbers are like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm the herald of the great king. And they're like, you're nuts. And they beat him up and throw him in the snow. And then he gets up, jumps out of the snow drift and starts singing again.

And this like song that's in him in some senses is reflective of what his life becomes, which is this like praise of the Lord in my beautiful gift of being poor and having nothing but the Father to provide for me and knowing that that is like not just more than enough, but it's overabundant. And so this love of the Father

and this relationship with Jesus becomes his way of life. And what he does is he sets out on a path of renewal for his own heart. And he didn't do this thinking that anybody was gonna follow him, by the way. It wasn't like Francis is like, let me start a new community. Francis said, let me start following

in the footsteps of Jesus. And that phrase is really like a linchpin keystone for him. Following in the footsteps of Jesus. So in his sort of like vision of the spiritual life, and Francis gives us no major treaties on the spiritual life, and part of that is caught up with, he has this preoccupation with what? I don't want to just say something,

I want to do something, which I like about him. He's not a man of words as much as he is a man of action. If you wanna know what it means to live a Franciscan spirituality, it's his life that is going to teach. There's other spiritual writers that give us like full on treaties like St. John of the Cross, right? You know, it's like the Ascent of Mount Carmel. So in his case, he's not doing that. He's looking at the gospel, looking at Jesus, following in his footsteps and seeking to do what he sees Christ doing and seeking to discern what it

means to live the gospel in the context he was in. He's doing what Christ did. I mean, this is one of the questions Aquinas answers in the Summa, like why didn't Christ write anything? And Thomas says, well, it's because he's like Socrates who didn't write anything because it's better to teach through action That's actually the the preferred method. So it sounds like Francis's Yeah, so he's doing it and and with that all of the sudden around him There are others that see his way of life And there's some and just just a pause here too for those who aren't aware

I mean the mendicant orders the Dominicans mendicare meaning to beg? The Franciscans, the Dominicans. These were new movements that were unlike the established orders of priests or the Cistercian, the Benedictines at the time. This would have been, this would have been, this is why it was so embarrassing. Part of why it was so embarrassing for Aquinas's mother to see him go off with this weird begging order. So it's not like a mark of joy. They wanted him to be a Benedictine. They're ashamed. Yeah.

I mean, many families were ashamed. And in fact, like that's why I write both Augustine and Bonaventure write this defense of the mendicants because there's this attack coming. What is this? And this is something that I find interesting, not to get too off track but like with Francis why I think he is a Tremendous witness for the world that we're in right now in the life of the church in this point in history is

because Francis lived just on the heels of a Council Lateran for he lived in a state of social Epical transition that was completely unstable. Life, world, politics were getting turned upside down. And there were scandal in the church. There was difficulties. There was questions about the use and abuse of authority.

And all of this was his context. And at that moment, around his group of penitentes of Assisi, which is what they're originally called, are all these other groups that are growing up, which actually Dominic is gonna be responding to at the Dominican Order, the Waldensians, the Abidjinsians, who are looking at this confusion and scandal and become these frontline critics of the church,

of the pope, of bishops of clergy and claiming sort of like what authentic right faith looks like is our way right up. And that's important to realize right the world and scenes and these others were living poverty greater than the clerics they were emphasizing scripture greater than the Catholics exactly so what Francis and Dominic did said was you're right here, you're wrong here. Exactly. So we'll be there. And that's where like for him the obedience, so in the rule of St. Francis it says at the very beginning first chapter, this is the rule in life of the Friars Minor namely to observe the Holy Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ living in obedience, in poverty, and in chastity. And then he goes on to say, and I, Francis, promise obedience to our Lord, Pope Honorius, and his lawful successors.

From the beginning, this is kind of like the point where it's so difficult, and this is church history is full of this. We see problems in the church. We want to seek a pathway of renewal and authenticity, a return to living the gospel in its fullness, the full proclamation of the faith. And the tension arises, which is, I wanna do this, but then how can I do this and remain in obedience

to the legitimate authority of mother church? And the Waldensians and Abigensians said, no, I am the one who possesses the authentic faith and I stand in judgment on the church, her clerics and her leadership and follow us because this is what traditional authentic Catholicism is. And Francis says, no, like I'm going to live poverty radically and I'm going to root my life in the word of God.

In fact, the origin of the rule of Francis is scripture. I mean, as they were trying to figure out how to live their life at the beginning, what does he do? He says to the guys who come to him who are like, hey, we don't know exactly what you're doing, but we wanna do that. And he says, I'm not really sure we're supposed to be doing either,

so why don't we go ask the Lord and they go. And this is a beautiful thing. The place that Francis heard scripture and the place in which he encountered God through the word was liturgy. So the word of God that was proclaimed in the liturgy was the place where Francis had his greatest access. Later, when he became a cleric, he's ordained a deacon, but not a priest. He would be praying the Breivary and obviously would be encountering the Word of God there,

but he goes to the priest, asks him, please, can you bring us the Gospels? And he does basically the old like Bible roulette and opens up three different times to find what is our way of life supposed to look like. And this is where he flips to where he tells the rich young man, if you would be perfect, go sell everything you have, give it to the poor and come follow me. He also finds the point where he sends out his 72 and says, don't take a walking staff or sandals or a money bag or a belt. Um, this radical dependence on Providence. And then he finds where Jesus says,

in Matthew, if you'd be my disciple, you must deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me. And the scripture, the word of God becomes a basis of their way of life. But because of his recognition of this authority of the church, what does he do?

From the outset, he goes to Rome, to the Holy Father and says, this is the way of life that the Lord's calling us to, will you approve this? And the first response is, no way. But then tradition, of course, you know, there's some of this, it's like historical evidence or facts around it as far as paper trails go, get a little bit dicey when you go back far in history.

But the tradition is that the Holy Father went had a dream That night after he had told Francis no And then that dream he sees actually Lateran Basilica which is falling over in this poor man dressed in a robe holding it up with his shoulder and this is the response of the Lord to Pope Inorius at this time, or Pope Innocent III, that then gives him the confirmation

that I'm supposed to say yes to this way of life. And so he approves it and Francis goes out. And this is, so he's got 12 guys in 1209. He dies, right? Roughly 26 years later later or 25 years there after this point when he dies yeah there are somewhere between five to six thousand that is Franciscan unbelievable that is so hard and changes the whole face of the church so hard to fathom, eh? This one guy.

That many thousand people. Imagine if one vocations director found 5,000 people in his term. Can you imagine? Oh my goodness. He'd be like, please write books. Tell us how to do this. This is a movement of the spirit.

And indeed was. Like from the beginning, like Francis was a man who was moved by the spirit of the Lord, was aware that the incarnation was not merely an event of the past, but was the ongoing reality of God's presence in our midst. And also one of the aspects of his life

from the beginning that was essential to his encounter with the living God, there were two of them, I would say. One was the discovery of the presence of the truth where Jesus says in Matthew 25, what you do to the least of my brethren that you did to me. And there's this beautiful story of his life as he's coming out of kind of the party boy, I'm concerned with the clothes I'm wearing and the people I'm hanging out with type of life. And beginning this new way of life, he makes a promise to God, if anyone ask me for alms for the love of God,

I will not refuse them. And as he makes this promise, he sometime later finds himself on a horse riding through the countryside, and all of a sudden, who shows up out of the middle of nowhere, a leper. And Francis, and talk about this, like he had a de-stain. Dude was just like, you know, like the,

you know, like somebody sees a cockroach and like, you know, like this is Francis with lepers, like could not stand them. Not even the sight and certainly not the smell because rotting flesh. Definitely. Unstandable. Yeah.

Like rotting flesh doesn't smell great, right? So he's got this Disposition towards lepers and one shows up and says for the love of God alms And his first response is he like kicks his horse and starts trucking it but then remembers what he told the Lord and Stops and turns around and comes back dismounts goes to that leper takes coins out of his money bag gives it to him and then does something that he never would have imagined doing after he's put these coins in the hands of the leper he takes the leper's hand raises it up and kisses like this

rotten flesh of the hand of a leper and then gets back on his horse and begins to ride away and as he turns back to see the leper there's no one to be seen and so this moment and at the end of his life interestingly at the end of his life he writes about it in his testament he says the Lord led me amongst the lepers and what before was bitter he made sweet and at the beginning of his life This was part of his experience of God was serving the poor and being with the lepers He literally moved into a leper sari um and was serving them at the beginning as part of this conversion as he's starting this new way of life

and And the other piece of him that I think is also so essential that sometimes, I don't know, I think sometimes it gets missed because like people are like the bird bath Francis, right? You're like, like he had this profound appreciation and love for the mystery of Jesus Christ, the word made flesh,

which manifested itself in a devotion to the incarnation and the mystery of the birth of Jesus and the poverty of Bethlehem. Anybody who's ever been to any church and had a crush there can say, thank you, St. Francis. Cause my man was the first one that did that. Way back when, right? In greco.

And then also a love for Jesus Christ crucified, the humility of a God who allow himself to share in our suffering, not just our humanity, but our suffering. And then finally, this tremendous love for Jesus in the Eucharist, in which he recognized that this humility of God who comes down to this earth and is born as one of us The humility and love of God who gives himself to us on the cross is the same humility and love of God that comes to us

hidden under the appearance of bread and wine and So his life became centered around these things these mysteries mysteries, this presence of God, this tangible nature. And when that happened, when he realized that Jesus came into this world, then his experience of the world radically transformed. And guess what happens? This is where the birdbath piece comes from. Because he knew that the Word became flesh, everything a material reality for him then transformed into a moment and a point and a place of encounter with God and So when he looked at a creation he didn't just see sort of like random atoms that are like bouncing together He didn't just see sort of like this

Mindless evolution following some kind of principle, you know of like survival of the fittest He saw the fruit of a creator who had created the beauty of everything that exists, which is where at the end of his life, right, he writes that beautiful hymn that many people know, the Canticle of Creatures, where he sees the truth of this relationship that exists between ourselves and all of creation,

because the same source and origin is all of our source and origin, which is God, the Trinity. And so Francis begins his way of life and these men draw near to him and he shows a path. And the reason that I think it's very apt for this moment is that when I think about his life, I think about our own moment in the history of the church, right? Yep. Social upheaval, a change of epoch, you know, it's kind of, it's just true. Like we are in these moments of like massive shifts.

Yeah. Societally. Tectonic plates. Yeah, it's just absolutely mind boggling to think about all the things that have happened in the last, even last few decades. Yeah. We're talking also about the things that have happened in the last, even last few decades. We're talking also about a moment in a life in the church, and you don't have to even look to the present, but even the past of like all the scandals that have rocked the face of the church,

and the confusion that abounds in the life of the church right now at this moment as well. And so Francis, in his time, in a similar situation, right, how did he respond? And that's where I'm looking for myself just personally. I mean, even beyond whatever it might say to others, like what does it mean for myself to work for authentic renewal in the life of the church now? And I look to him and I find these examples,

like this Eucharistic centered life This humility that is absolutely like radically committed to the conversion of what my own heart mm-hmm and Also a humble obedience and reverence For the church and her leadership even when I don't get it I don't understand and I might even disagree. Yeah or even when the leadership are sinful and and well yeah there's a story of this moment like for him this is what happens he's coming into a town where he's being asked to

come and preach and as he comes near a town where he's being asked to come and preach. And as he comes near, they say, hey, guess what? You need to come and meet with the priest who is the pastor of this parish here in town because he's living with a concubine. Like he's got a woman living with him. Like everybody knows it, open, grave, moral, evil, scandalous behavior.

And here's Francis, and he comes into town, and his response is he goes, he walks up to this cleric, everybody's like, oh man, now it's coming, Francis is here, the saint's gonna give him the one-two, and he drops to his knees in front of the priest, takes his hands, grabs him and kisses both of them. He says, I kiss the hands that bring me Jesus in the Eucharist. And he stands up and he keeps walking.

And in his writings, he speaks of this like reverence, not for the man, but for the one who this man has been ordained in conformity to, Jesus Christ. It's expressed in his reverence for the legitimate authority in the life of the church. And it's, and it is a tension. And I think this is the thing, Francis, like said, yes to not moving out of the tension. And this is so tough, and I struggle with this personally, like just just just me, like I struggle with like this tension of like God, like how can I really be faithful to you and really trust when I feel like sometimes the people around me or those who might be in leadership aren't following you

and aren't actually working for the true good of the gospel and who you are. What does it look like to stay in this place where I am humbly trusting that you're working through the mess, but also faithfully pressing into this deeper conformity to your heart, Jesus? And in the history of the church, we've always found that like the response to choose sides is exactly what the word in Greek comes from. That's heresies. Choosing.

Yeah, interesting. It's choosing a side and saying it's either this or it's this. And where does Jesus remain? Always in this place of tension, which is the cross, which is where Francis found his refuge and what he's ultimately conformed to in the stigmata is, is it like, even in this tension where it's like,

I don't even know what to do, but I'm not going to abandon you, Jesus. I'm not going to choose a side that you haven't chosen. I'm not going to follow a path that you haven't walked. And I'm gonna stay here where I'm stretched out in seemingly paradoxical opposite directions and just like, Lord, to whom else will we go? You alone have the words of eternal life.

And like the heresies and the things that have happened in the life of the church are the fruit of us being in that tension. It's like, I can't handle this. I gotta get out of it one way or the other. And I think there's a lot of questions and issues in the life of the church in our moment right now that we're seeing that tension

and there's this temptation to move out of the tension. And it can seem like it's even good or true or right, but it's like, what did Francis do? His whole life he says, what is it that Jesus did? How is it that Jesus lived? What is it that he spoke? And that's what I wanna do, because he's the way, he's the truth, he's the life, and there's none other.

And that type of this like radical surrender to Christ is What bore fruit when he said yes to I will die? Then all of a sudden the truth of Jesus words were seen in his life, right? Yeah, amen. Well said what happened to Francis towards the end of his life my understanding I don't have a great deal of understanding about Francis was that maybe that some of the order turned on him and he may have been kicked out of his head position. And well, he resigned. So this is what happens.

This is a little bit crazy. You know, you talk about like, here's this is a saint, right? You know, like everybody looks back. He's so awesome. It was so easy. You know, you love Jesus and you're like traipsing through like, you know, prairies and you know, meadows and just kind of like in this bliss is like no He goes on this mission

Over to the Middle East in order to evangelize the Muslims What a guy and he's like I'm gonna go preach the gospel to these folks. You're coming with arms. I'm coming with the cross mm-hmm, and that's when he meets the Sultan and proclaims to him the good news of the gospel and and that's when he meets the Sultan and proclaims to him the good news of the gospel and Tells him hey, you know what if you don't believe me why don't you bring all of your best sort of like, you know imams and let's make a really big fire and You guys and me will get in the fire You pick your top dudes and me and we'll get in the fire and whoever is not burned alive. That's the real God like talk about radical he was ready to literally like step into a fire because he knew and

believed in who Jesus Christ is and he says, you know what, because I want you to know that truth too. The Imams, I don't know why, but they denied the invitation to the party. And so he ends up, nonetheless, being given permission to visit all the holy sites, which were at that point, because of the Crusades and the wars going on, inaccessible to Christians that were from the West. So he does this, but then word comes to him.

You've got to return, things are just falling into chaos. And so part of the chaos was, is people were trying to sort of like change the rule as he had established it, we're trying to add things or take things away, you're a bit too radical, Francis, I mean we can't really live the poverty you're talking about. Because earlier you said his rule was the Gospels, but so it sounds like over time it became more concrete and specific. It was and the rule that we have, there's three different rules that we know of.

One was a rule that was approved verbally in 1209, and then there is another rule that is never approved called the Regula Nambulata that's in 1221, and then the rule that we have, the rule of St. Francis, which is approved in 1221 and then the rule that we have, the rule of St. Francis, which is approved in 1223. And the, in between 1209 and 1221, people were like trying to change things, remove radical poverty.

One of the things was like, well, we surely should be able to own some property. Cause what can we do if we don't have a place to live? Can we have some books? Yeah, books. It was all these, there was questions that were arising and also had to do with receiving letters from the Holy Father

because they were going out evangelizing and people didn't know who they were. Some of them literally got like their butts whooped, like, you know, like beaten, putting in prison. And he was like, rejoice, you were able to suffer for the sake of Christ. He's like, don't look for- They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, can I get a letter? I'd like a letter that says like, you't look for- They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, can I get a letter? I'd like a letter that says, like, you know, like, letter of good standing, please. And he's like, no, he's like, the disciples had no letters of good standing. He was like, we're gonna go out and preach the gospel. And so people, there's tension, you know, and then to be honest, they're like, I'm sitting here,

like, I kind of get some of that tension, you know? But he comes back into this just real disorder that's happening. And the one that he had put in charge has caused the order to move in a direction that he doesn't approve, but he steps down voluntarily from the role of leadership as being the superior in the community and just pulls back. And this is where there's a couple of years

where it talks about, and you find this in some of the writings that come later from people who are close to him, where he is depressed, he's downcast, he's kind of morose, he's, he's pulled back, he's, he's sort of introverted, he's kind of inside of himself and people can't get him to kind of be the Francis that you used to be. And then talk about, you know, you talked about not trying to resolve the tension, and that makes a lot more sense when it's something we don't even have authority over.

You know what I mean? So it's like, even if I wanted to resolve it for the church, I'm not in a place to do that. Francis, presumably, is in a place to resolve tension within his order that he found it, and yet he willingly leaves it. And we know that one of the reasons that he does that, at least in the writings that he does that at least in

The writings that he has to his brothers because he writes to them and there's ammunitions that I've been kind of referring to He talks about he says blessed is that brother who receives accusation unjustly and accepts it in Order to continue to live in communion with his brothers. I'm like, yo, I'm not there. Definitely not there.

But Francis like cherished and reverence the communion of the brothers in such a way that he pulls back from leadership because there's tension and fighting and he knows that he's a part of it. And he says, I would rather that the brethren be united. And this reminds me of what Pope Benedict may have done. Right. Yeah. Imagine resigning, pulling back.

No, people don't understand why even now I kind of am a little upset. Right. Yeah. And yet he goes into silence. The faith it would take. I mean, how many friars would have been on Francis's side? Oh, yeah. Seeing the changes take place in the like, you've, you've abandoned your responsibility. I mean, he was, it was exactly what he's experiencing.

And, and so he's in this tension and frustration and struggle. He finds himself finally at this place where he's kind of at wits end and he's like, I just, I just have to go into. Solitude. And so he goes to fast and pray before the feast of St. Michael. So there was different times of year where Francis fasted. One was from the feast of the Assumption until the feast of the Holy Archangels of St. Michael, the end of September 29th. So he goes up to this hermitage Mount Laverna and he just seeks solitude. And he tells his brothers, hermitage, Mount Laverna, and he just seeks solitude and he tells his brothers, if you see, you know, when you come in the morning,

if you see this, you know, cup out here, then you can approach, but if you don't see it, don't come near. And he just goes into the solitude. I say that to my kids and they still come. It's very annoying. I know, it's like, I put the cup there, you know what it means, don't disturb daddy.

Unfortunately, four-year-olds are not quite the same as, although friars sometimes even still. All right, so I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, no. So they're there, and on that mountain in that time of solitude is when Francis has this a mystical experience that is beyond explanation in which he has before him this vision of a seraph angel on a cross crucified who is suspended in the air and he

beholds him and he speaks about this experience. So kind of the cross Jesus Christ crucified meets him on Mount Laverna. And he speaks about this love so sweet that is beyond explanation and this pain so deep that he wanted to die. Talk about tension. Talk about paradox. Talk about a place where you're just sort of, and so Francis in that place, right, of encounter with the Lord has this experience

which never in the history of the church before this moment, as far as I know, here we go, here it is. Of course no one will see that and we don't need to show it to them. That's right, not gonna. But it's a prayer card of Francis receiving this. Yeah.

In French, I think it is. In French, beautiful. Don't do French, if it was Spanish, I could help you, but beautiful. So Francis receives this grace of being conformed to Jesus Christ crucified. And you can kind of think about this, right? Like Jesus himself, like the cross is his ultimate moment

of surrender and obedience to the paradox of the way that the Father chooses to redeem humanity and this choice in the face of all of these voices that are saying to him whether it's Peter in the garden with the sword defend yourself whether it's Pilate who's saying, say something and I'll get you out of here. I'm just looking for an excuse not to condemn you. And his silence, and then on the cross, come down from there, come down from there

and we'll believe in you. All these voices that want to call you out of that tension. And he says, nope, like I'm gonna stay here because this is where the mystery of redemption is going to unfold. This is where I make all things new. This is where I teach you who the father is, one whom you can trust and entrust yourself to even in the face of the mystery of suffering and death and the love that sustains even through that darkness. And so Francis meets him in that place

of his own darkness in his life, and this mystery of a love that is beyond explanation and a pain that makes him want to die, and all of a sudden finds himself bearing in his body, it says, in his hands and his feet and his side these wounds of Jesus just like love lets itself be wounded for the beloved you know I know that some people speculate about st. Paul and whether he bore in his body though yeah of Christ but is Francis the first kind of credible documented evidence?

As far as I know, but you can fact check me on that. Cause I'm not sure like, but so far as I know, he's the first stigmata that's recorded, which was also why it became such a point of contention and also a mystery. And he safeguarded and hid them similar to like Padre Pio sort of didn't want anybody to see them. And it was in the last two years of his life that he bore those. And it's at the end of his life

that we read about Bonaventure talking about them that there were those who were there when he died who finally were able to witness the wounds on his body of the stigmata there at his death. And of the stigmata there at his death. And again, this might be sort of hagiographical legend, but it's said that Claire comes and reverences his body. And when she kisses the wounds, tries to pull out what would appear to be nails. Cause it talked about he had these wounds in his flesh and then form these black sort of nodule things

that appeared to be nails on the surface. So the rest of his life, he's bearing these wounds in his body. And at the same time, he's suffering physically, right? He goes blind at the end of his life. And here's the thing that I think people don't realize, like when they're like birdbath in St. Francis, birdbath is that that beautiful canticle of creatures is written when Francis at the end of his life

is blind and is in this cell where mice are coming and tormenting him at night. And he's suffering tremendously and has a stigmata and is physically experiencing the pain of that. And also simultaneously feels the weight of his order moving in a direction which he thinks is a departure from the original ideal and inspiration he received.

And in that place, he writes a Canical of Creatures, which is this tremendous proclamation, right? I mean, it's a call of all creation to praise God, but it's a proclamation of his faith. And it's to me, sort of a sign that he discovered something in that darkness, discovered something in that mystery of the cross, which broke out in the same way

that the light of the resurrection broke out three days after Calvary. And it breaks out in song for him. He starts his life of this penitenti of Assisi singing and he ends his life singing. He's singing French love songs at the beginning and now he's singing the Canticle of Creatures, which he set to a tune and his brothers would sing

in praise of God. And this is Francis, the real Francis, right? Not the caricature, not the sort of like singing, dancing through the meadows. Certainly not a birdbath, but a man who knew Jesus Christ and gave his life. What's funny, though, is like, I think sometimes we can also kind of react to abuses and then and then lose sight of what actually was there. You know, like what I mean by that is, I mean, you could imagine someone saying, well, he wasn't just this fella. I know you're not saying this.

I'm not saying that, but he wasn't just this fella who was skipping through meadows and hanging out with birds. And then you forget that. Well, he also maybe did do that. And we should also talk about that. Yeah, it's that that he. Yeah. Tell it, tell us about the Francis and the wolf. Oh, yeah. Gubio. I mean, the thing about Francis is, is that he was a man who was reconciled to the Lord and sought to become this kind of instrument of reconciliation with others.

And for him, reconciliation is about stepping into and living this truth of relationship with the Father as our Creator. And that happens only through Jesus. And once this happened for him and he began to recognize who God was and who he was, he then began to realize, wow, if this is true, if like, Lord, you are real and you are the source

of all that is, and I'm made in your image and likeness and called into relationship with you, it's also true that everything that exists is the fruit of your love. And so now the trees, the birds, the sun, the moon, the wolf are no longer sort of things out there, but our brother and sister in the true sense of having this common shared father as creator,

who's a source of all. Could I read the Canticle? Yes. And if you know it, say it along with me, know but most high or powerful good lord or praise is yours or glory or an all blessing to you alone most high do they belong and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce your name praise be you my lord with all your creatures especially so brother son. Brother Son, who is the day through whom you give us light, and he is beautiful and radiant and great with great splendor. Of you, most high, he bears the likeness. Praise be you, my Lord, through sister moon and the stars and the heavens, you have made them bright, precious and fair.

Praise be you, my Lord, through brother's wind and air, and fair and stormy all weather's moods by which you cherish all that you have made. Praise be you my Lord through sister water so useful humble precious and pure. Praise be you my Lord through brother fire through whom you light the night and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong. Praise be you my Lord through our sister mother earth. See she's still sister, huh? It's just not the pagan idea of Mother Earth.

Sister Mother Earth, who sustains and governs us, producing varied fruits with colored flowers and herbs. Praise be you, my Lord, through those who grant pardon for love of you and bear sickness and trial. Blessed are those who endure in peace. it as that tension line right now so those who endure in peace by you most high they will be crowned praise be you my lord through sister death. sin blessed they she finds doing your will no second death can do harm to them praise and bless my Lord and give him thanks and serve him with great humility. I won't look it up and go through them but what are these things you're telling us to read these exotation admonitions of Saint Francis I mean if you put all of his writings into a book, is it a small book? Yep. Yeah. That's approximately that thing. So he has a number of, so first off, he had prayers from him.

Wow, I see. So there's 28, right? Yes. 28. Yeah. And in our life as Franciscans of the renewal, each day we read one of them as part of our examination of conscience together in the context of night prayer. So the words of Francis continue to- It fits within a month, right?

So you just cycle through them. And so you're hearing those and being called to this higher way of life that, and interestingly, those admonitions actually are believed to be a collection of exhortations, which he gave to all the friars at their general chapters over the course of a number of years. So when they would come together, it speaks about him exhorting the brothers to this life that they've been called to live.

And the collection of those exhortations is what the admonitions is believed to be. Wow. And what's your favorite one? is what the admonitions is believed to be. Wow. What's your favorite one? My favorite admonition, I think that one that I was referencing before about the Eucharist, because it's just been such a powerful insight to me of how to actively do something to deepen my faith

and my capacity to encounter Jesus, both in the Eucharist but in in daily life which is through a greater devotion to the Holy Spirit and Asking for that Holy Spirit to reveal his presence to me where I can't yet perceive him Well, I want to read just one. It's number two the evil of self-will Oh, yeah, because this is one that either gets beaten out of you in community, or you become bitter, or you leave. The Lord God said to Adam, of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat. Adam therefore might eat of every tree of paradise, and so long as he did not offend against obedience, he did not sin. For one eats of the tree of knowledge of good, who appropriates to himself his own will, and prides himself upon the goods which the

Lord publishes and works in him, and thus, through the suggestion of the devil and transgression of the commandment, he finds the apple of the knowledge of evil, wherefore it behooves that he suffer punishment." Alright, explain what that means to me. It means that, so appropriation, disappropriation. So to appropriate is to claim something for my own. To disappropriate is to relinquish my right over this. And for Francis, actually, the words that he uses in Latin in the rule that are what would be referred to as poverty is not poverty, but sine propio, without anything of my own. For him, the kind of fundamental paradigm and prism for poverty is disappropriation.

And the reason that he sees that is, is what you'll find in a later admonition, the only thing I can claim for my own are my sins and my weaknesses. Anything else I try to appropriate is actually a lie. There's something disingenuous about this appropriation. And he also does it because what does he see in Jesus? He sees Philippians too.

He did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, but rather he emptied himself. He disappropriated himself of his divinity, humbly accepting the form of a slave being born in likeness of men, being obedient even unto death, death on a cross. So he sees Jesus like showing the way through the incarnation. And then he recognizes in the truth of who I am as a human being and a creature is actually none of this is mine.

And so what he recognizes is the last bastion of this fight against poverty is not something but it's my will. And so the greatest sort of relinquishing through poverty or the greatest disappropriation is the surrendering of my will. Yeah. Because I, you know.

That is the hardest thing. Oh man. I mean, that's what we're talking about. The community, like that's where you just like, oh boy, like I want to hold onto, like, and it can be. What I want. What I want. What I want to do. And I want to do it the way I want to do it. Yeah any kind of what I want. I want to do what I want to do.

I want to do it. I want to do it the way I want to do it. Yeah. Because it's the best way. Obviously. Right. Man. And this is true in family life. I mean, you come home from a full day of work

and there's mess and there's loud children. And sometimes when I get grumpy, it's because I'm not submitting myself to the will of God. Yeah. To the permissive will of God that should have beautiful children be loud and crazy. That's right. I mean, obviously, there's nothing to be said of having order in the home and disciplining children, of course. But submitting to the wildness of family

life and, you know, maybe what I wanted to do is sit out in the front stoop and have a pipe and chat with my bride. But my children have wants and to submit yourself to that. That is the hardest thing to do to kill your will. Yeah. You give everything away. But if I don't have love. It is interesting, they say that for there's kind of differences with religious.

I don't know how true this is. It's just sort of a maxim that was said to me, whether or not it applies to women. I don't know. But men I can certainly attest to. But it said that as you enter religious life, for women, the most challenging sort of vow of the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, often obedience is the most difficult at the beginning. For the sisters, okay. For the sisters.

And for men, often at the beginning, the most difficult is chastity. Whereas in the fullness of religious life, the vow that ends up costing the most for women and being the most challenging is chastity. And motherhood. I think that's what I think it is, it's the relationship to motherhood.

And for men, O-B-B-N. 100%. Totally. I mean, you know, it's like the, because at some point you wanna be the king of my, my little kingdom. I mean, as a father and family, you know, he's sort of like, I wanna sort of have a place

where I'm sitting in a posture of authority, and you know, and sort of guiding things and making decisions and, you know, and it's like, obedience? You serious? I'm a grown man. Like stop treating me like a boy, you know? And it's like,

and that's what Francis is getting after with that is that the evil of self-will is the same evil that entered into the heart of Adam and Eve when they grasped with this apple and said, non servit. Right? And it's like, it's my way. Yeah. I frequently drive through red lights in this town on purpose because they are as a protest of the fact that somebody did not coordinate them

appropriately. I will not have electric things telling me what to do. But minecraft. But I should or at least I think one of the reasons it's difficult to to to die to our will is It's like the individual death isn't worth writing home about as they say and it's not Nothing seems to be affected after I do that So if I drive home today and choose to stop at the red light go, thank you Lord for this red light I don't feel like an explosion of piety within you. Right. I just whatever. It's nothing.

So I imagine it has to be like the accumulated effect of like death by pinpricks kind of thing. Is that? Well, I think because, OK, like obedience, right? Listening will be there. It has to do with listening, harkening and harkening and trust to the voice that's speaking to me. I'm just thinking now I could see the red lights as a symbol of blood and dying to myself.

You're like, kata! Got me again, little deaths, little deaths. But like the undoing I was just this morning, I was just praying the rosary, and I don't know why I was just struck again with the like the drama of the first mystery of the rosary of this agony in the garden. We're like, Jesus goes back to the garden, right?

Where the original sin occurred of disobedience and he wrestles with the tension, which is, I don't understand this. I don't want this. What do I do? Not my will, but yours be done. And that obedience is what Francis sees and says, this is the way, you know,

not because it's like Mandalorian or something, but this is the way because Jesus Christ is the way. And this is the way to authentic freedom because the truth is what sets me free. And the truth is what the father asked of me. The truth is what the father says to me. It's his will that is the truth of what is actually good for me.

And that's, you know, in some sense, it's kind of the antithesis to the postmodern experience and the postmodern man who says, no, freedom is unshackling my entire existence from any reference to anything outside of myself and then radical, quote unquote, freedom to just do whatever I want, be whatever I want. And at the end, it's like, it's a total like false illusion. Like you only exist because your mom and dad, sorry.

Yeah. You have a belly button. You have two names that you didn't choose probably. You know, yeah. But, but for Francis, it's like obedience is the pathway to freedom. Yeah. And that is radical.

And it's something that's, you know, it's like, when I choose it, oof, it costs something. Why? Because guess what? Like, I'm just still full of myself. I know it. I'd like to not be, but I'm just so full of myself. And obedience is the way in which the Lord empties us of ourselves.

It's, it's easy to confess general sins, isn't it? Like I'm lustful or I'm full of myself. It's really hard to then name that particular thing. Well, he said this specifically and I didn't like that. Like we don't like that. Oh yeah. It's like what I said earlier, like I'm a sinner. We say that. Oh yeah. But we we don't say, well, I'm I was rude to this man because he smelled bad. Yeah. No, for me, one of the places where I just frequently sin is like driving in New York. Yeah. And I'm just like. From time to time, I wish it was more often, the Lord will just remind me,

like, what would this person think? If they saw who you were in the way that you just acted? I'm just like. I don't like that question. I don't like that. Come on, stop that. It's like, you just like cut them off, honk the horn. I'm like, get out. You're not gonna let you in.

You're trying to merge. Exactly. You're like, whoa, what's wrong with these people? I'm like, look in the mirror, dude. I mean, I see that, you know, it's like one of these places where I'm like, oh man, yeah, I'm totally convinced that what I'm doing, where I'm going, and my time is the most important thing that exists.

And anything that gets in the way of that is an obstacle that ought to be removed or destroyed if I had an RPG in this vehicle with me. It would be bad. It would be bad. Some fella is watching right now and he's thinking, I'd like to consider joining the Friars of the Renewal I'd like to apply or I'd like to learn more. Yeah, I mean so two questions one is a practical question

How do they in fact learn more but also maybe a discernment question? How how what advice would you give to a young man or a young woman to send your sisters? What should they start doing? I mean, I think the first thing, it's the simplest, is pray. Because if a vocation is a calling and prayer is my heart communicating with the heart of Christ and through him the heart of the Father and the Spirit, then prayer is where I'm gonna hear that call. Now I'm certainly attentive to my life, but because sometimes I'm like asking, what do you want God? But like, am I giving him that time,

spoke before about silence? Like make room in your life for some silence to listen and ask the Lord, what is it that you desire of my life? And to just wait and fight to be present and just in a posture of receptivity. Second thing is, is if you're thinking about being a Franciscan, like what do you know about St. Francis? So there's amongst many different biographies out there,

one that we recommend often is by a guy named Engelbert. So it's just called St. Francis of Assisi. I think it's a good thing just to read his life. If I read his life and I'm like, oh, he's cool, and then like I can put it down, go check out, you know, the Dominicans, go check out the Jesuits, go check, you know. But if you read that and I'm like, man, like I want this, you know, well then give us a call.

So there's, you know, we have on our website, there's a contact part, so franciscanfriars.com, and there's a vocations contact page in there where you can either get a phone number and literally call. We got brothers that are in there in the office that actually return calls. Although it's not like you can't text us or whatever. It's landlines. So it's sort of like back in the cave, you know, caveman days. But give a call or there's also an email where you can shoot an email to

and just ask to be able to talk to somebody. So we have come and see visits in the the process is generally a phone conversation with one of the guys on our vocations team who just listens to somebody. So we have come and see visits and the the process is generally a phone conversation with one of the guys on our vocations team who just listens to your story and tries to figure out where are you on the journey of discernment and how can we help you take the next good step. If it seems like it's moving in a direction of our community perhaps then there's come and see visits and coming on that is just an opportunity to see what is our life like, you know, what does it really look like to live it, to learn more about it, and as that grows and discernment grows and maybe coming back again and eventually guys, you know,

if they really seriously think God's calling them, you ask for an application and then come on, let's go. We certainly are in need of young men who are willing to respond in a radical way to the gospel. I think uh, the world that we live in is is one that is calling for a response that's all in if you go for sort of the Sort of the i'm not sure route and there is a fear commitment. I just want to say that young men like fear of commitment um is a plague of our society

young men like fear of commitment is a plague of our society. And it's it's two things. There's a fear that commitment means a loss of my freedom. And there's a fear that commitment is something that I'm not capable of. And in both cases, the truth sets us free. So to give yourselves into the hand of a living God is the ultimate act of freedom because it's to discover the why for your very existence and to live it and then to know that when he calls the grace is not yours it's his it's gonna be given so you're actually able with his grace to be faithful to the path that he's calling you to live in your

life so come on. And am I right in thinking that you now have kind of homitages or Franciscans who are now choosing to be monks? Within our community. Is that right? Yeah there's a there's a place up in upstate New York, Monticello, New York, where we have a place that's a retreat center and there are a group of friars that live there that's a more kind of aromidical, kind of use that word again, so sort of a little bit more of the contemplative version of our life, leading people in retreats, sharing a common life, working with their hands, literally chopping wood for winter, and doing work on the property, but also dedicating more substantial time to just

prayer, silence, intercession. It'll be interesting to see how the spirit moves your community and whether or not there'll be more of these popping up around the country as the demand for it from the friars or the desire for it from the friars increases. Yeah, and I mean, for us, it's like we, there's a lot of opportunities and invitations

that are there right now for us as a community. Stubendale would be a great place for you all to move, man. Come on. Talk about a math problem, talk about homeless problem. Oh man, yeah. And to be with the poor, that's a core part of the original inspiration for the friars as they wanted to not only minister

to the poor, but to live with them. And I remember being shocked back in the day as I was discerning your order, seeing that one of your. What are they called? Uh, statements within the Constitution Constitution was essentially that if you live in an area that becomes financially on the up and up, you can leave. Yeah. To go find the poor. Amen. Yeah. Gentrification happens. We're out of here.

See ya. Has it happened? Well, it almost did, but the pandemic, I think, stopped it. So we have a friary in Harlem that has had quite a significant amount of gentrification in the neighborhood surrounding the friary. When we moved in, it was a bunch of like crack houses. It were boarded up windows. A lot of those old brownstones in New York were bought,

renovated, turned over, and rented out for high-end apartments. But the pandemic really kind of just was a full stop on a lot of things in New York City, as many might know. But the gentrification just halted and the poor that were there, that we're serving, never really left. So there's some, I call them SRO, single room occupancy. So government subsidized buildings. And those folks come to soup kitchens regularly at the friary, do home visits to visit them and pray with them and kind of just live in relationship

and walk with them. What's your advice to someone who wants to be obedient to Christ and namely give to those who beg of you, but at the same time realize that money is maybe not a good idea to give to this particular individual. What sort of advice do you have for us? I would say the first thing is you can always give your presence. So how do I treat this person or am I responding and reacting in a way that you're just kind of in the way

of what I'm trying to get to and do? Are you a nuisance? Is the fact that you somehow physically appear repulsive to me, how do I respond? So do I give a loving presence? Do I smile? Do I ask their name? Am I willing to take the risk and shake their hand? I mean, some people

won't even touch them. Think about like human humanly speaking, like we need touch. And how many of these people have spent the entire day being ignored by other human beings and not being touched by any human being in a way that was recognizing their dignity? Right. Yeah. And so that's those are those are things that I see. So like asking their name, shaking their hand, looking them in the eyes. So that's the first piece, give your presence and treat them with dignity and love. And then secondly is, is it error on the side of charity?

So if I get to heaven, I'd much rather be standing before the throne of God and him being like, you know what? You were wrong about Frank. Yeah, you gave Frank that money, you gave Frank that money and he bought some drugs with it. As opposed to Frank hadn't eaten in three days. Or I appeared to you as Frank.

Yeah, I mean, and he does. Jesus comes to us in the poor. If you have the capacity and time, it's like in New York City sometimes I'm able to just be like, hey, you hungry, sweet, let me take you over here and we'll get you something to eat. I recognize with women, it's a little bit more,

you just have to safety issue is real. Yeah, I've explicitly told my wife to not do that. Don't take someone for a meal. She's because she used to do it. She's a good woman and I put an end to it because I love her. Yeah, there's a sense of wanting to, yeah, you wanna have a sense of respect for her

or safety for people that you love. But the other thing is, and this is something that you can do is, is like if you live in a place where you know you're going to meet the poor consistently, be prepared. So like, we'll just like friars, I'll take, and before I'm heading out, I'll throw a bunch of granola bars in my bag.

Because I know somebody's gonna come and ask me for something. I don't wanna give you money because I actually don't think that's for your good. And I want what's good for you. But I wanna give you something. And I also wanna have an opportunity just to meet you and encounter you.

So I'll bring, you know, I'll chew, not crunchy, because a lot of times if they're homeless and they have addiction issues, they don't have teeth, depending on what kind of drugs they're using. You know, but things that are easy to chew, soft, you know, sandwiches, things like that. That's hopeful. And to be prepared.

So if I know I go to work and it's in a city or I drive through an intersection and there's always people begging, well, now I'm gonna like have a little bag that has like a water bottle and a little sandwich and maybe a Divine Mercy card. Yeah. And I'm like, hey, here you go, God bless you.

What's your name? You know, how can I pray for you? Yeah, okay. Super simple, but I think goes a long way to just Being able to meet Jesus in the poor and receive also what he wants to give you through them Amen as you wrap up, would you give me your blessing? Maybe even Thursday? Yeah, come on. Let's do it well, I'm gonna give you a blessing with the the relic of the habit of st. Francis

invoking his intercession. So just ask right now, Heavenly Father, that you would pour forth all the graces that Matt and Thursday need, and ask this grace also extend to their families and loved ones. Pray that through the intercession of Saint Francis, that they might receive a new grace of conformity to your sacred heart Jesus,

they may receive a grace of a deeper surrender and trust living with nothing of their own, taking up the cross alone and letting that be their glory, their riches, their life, and pray for protection from the enemy, that the peace of Christ may abide in their hearts and their light may shine before men that all may give glory to the Father. And may Almighty God bless you, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Amen. Thank you, Father. Yeah, thank you. Bless you.