Pints With Aquinas - Terrifying Stories of Real Exorcisms w/ Fr. Vincent Lampert

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Fr. Vincent Lampert is an American Catholic priest and the designated exorcist of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Indianapolis. He was born on April 7, 1963, and was ordained on June 1, 1991. Fr. Lampert received his exorcism training at the Pontifical North American College in Rome, Italy, and has assisted in over 40 exorcisms. He is also known for using social media, particularly podcast appearances, to share his experiences and insights about exorcism. In addition to his exorcism duties, Fr. Lampert serves as the pastor of St. Michael and St. Peter Parishes in Brookville, Indiana.  Clip Sponsors: Exodus: https://exodus90.com/matt Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Strive 21: https://strive21.com/matt  

What is something you've seen in an exorcism that leads you to believe this cannot merely be an issue of mental health? That this is actually supernatural. So only God is supernatural. Demons, we would say, are preternatural. So they're above our understanding of nature. That's why demons can do things that we would say, well, that's not humanly possible. I see. How is a body levitating? How is, you know, head spinning or a body crawling up the wall like a spider?

These types of things have you seen anything remotely like those things? I've seen them all you've seen a body levitating a head spinning and someone climbing up a wall absolutely Yeah, all right, that's gonna be Father lamp it. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. Yes, it's good to be here again. You mentioned that out. I think this is the third time you've been on.

I have your third time's the charm. Yeah, so this is we're going to knock it out of the park. And we've already had millions of views on your previous episodes. Does that surprise you? It doesn't when I travel around and give other talks, usually one of the dominant ways that people have heard me speak, they always mention the interviews with pines with the clients. But I mean, does it surprise you that so many people found it interesting enough to click on and watch through? I don't think so, because one of

the reasons why my bishop gave me permission to be public Was the way to help catechize people. I think there's a lot of people today that simply do not know the basic tenets of our Catholic faith and I think traveling around and giving talks and presentations Is a way to help catechize people and I think people kind of tap into that because there is such a Deep thirst I believe, for God. People may not realize it. It's that great line from St. Augustine, our hearts will wrestle, so Lord, until they rest

in you. And I think when people hear these types of podcasts, it really triggers something within them, a kind of that homing beacon for God, and it kind of awakens something in them. And I think that's a good thing Hey real quick. Would you mind turning this screen off? Yeah, well just like make it black and don't make it up it's yeah, it's really can it's really yeah I find it really distracting. My eye keeps going over it. Yeah.

That's the last time we'll do an interruption, I promise. But I mean, do you think the reason people are clicking on the show, because it's not like, you know, if we did a video where it was just you and me talking about how people thirst for God, we wouldn't get nearly as many clicks. So there's got to be an element to the sensational. Don't you think that people are, it's almost like, I think it would be as, as interesting to people. I'm not saying it should be, but I think it would be as interesting to people if I was like chatting

with a ghost hunter. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a sensational element to what you do, which is why people are clicking on it and watching through It a lot of people at least do you think that's problematic? Yeah, but if people are at least interested in that then meet people where they are. Yeah And so if people are intrigued by the demonic Then use that as a way to talk about God You know, I always tell people that you know, the devil may have been cast out of heaven, but he wasn't cast out of creation. God can still use the devil for his greater purposes. And I think in being public in the ministry of

exorcism, it's a way about bringing people to God using the devil. Yeah, yeah. Judo, using him against him. Do you ever tell people what you do on airplanes? Or out and about when they ask you what you do? And what's that been like? Yeah, usually that catches people by surprise. I don't go around. You don't lead with that probably? I don't. I don't. And sometimes if I travel I might just be incognito. You know, you sit on an airplane and the person next to you, you know, do you want to strike up a conversation or not?

Sometimes I just want to get caught up on my sleep. So I sleep a lot on airplanes, but if people engage me in a conversation, I will tell them. And usually it catches people off guard. They really don't know how to respond. Cause most people will think, okay, God, faith, all right, but then when you start talking about the demonic or exorcism, yeah, sometimes people are like, okay, goodbye. I think it has a similar impact on people as when you talk to somebody who's recounting actual miracle stories. It shows that Christianity is not merely a philosophy of life like stoicism or maybe some forms of Buddhism,

but it's about a relationship with a living God who is alive and who is at work in the world today. And so I think people are comfortable with Christianity if they think of it just as a way to be nice or something like that. But when you start talking about miracle stories or the demonic, you're talking about no things are happening now and it's real. It would be almost like maybe a similar experience if you were in the room with a dead body and it suddenly woke up. I mean think of that phenomenological

reaction and response you would have to that reality. It's like that, I think, with people. They think of Christianity as this dead artifact of history, but then when you start talking about these real supernatural occurrences, it shocks them. It absolutely does. But what I've discovered is that a lot of people have these occurrences in their life, but they don't have any place to take it. And then if they find out what I do, they're readily willing to kind of share stories that many people might consider to be bizarre because I think a lot of people have supernatural experiences, but they just don't talk about them because they're afraid of how other people might view them. I have people tell me all the time, you know, father you're not going to believe or

this is going to sound strange. I always tell them that the abnormal is my norm. So nothing that someone's going to say is going to really shock me because you know, when you're, you know, I'm in my 19th year as an exorcist, so I've seen all kinds of extraordinary phenomena, you know, a lot of demonic activity, but ultimately I want people to focus on the power of God and not what the devil is doing. But if people are fascinated by the devil, then I'm going to use that as an avenue to bring them into a greater fascination with God. And I think that's needed today.

Yeah, we saw recently at the Olympic Games, this sort of public display of blasphemy, and it made me think we're no longer living in a Christian age. We now live, it would seem, in the West and elsewhere in a pagan age. Do you agree with that? And how does that, I guess, how does the rate of the need for exorcism skyrocket when people aren't being baptized, they aren't receiving Eucharist, they aren't calling upon the name of Jesus? Is there any way to sort of track whether there has been more possession and sort of demonic infestation today than there may have been 500 years ago in Christian countries?

You know, the National Eucharistic Congress was recently held in Indianapolis, my diocese. There were two breakout sessions for priests. One of them that I attended was debating the question, you know, do we no longer live in a Christian era? And perhaps it's more of a apostolic era. Christian era would be where society is willingly going to embrace Christian values and principles in helping to mold and shape society. We would see that in government and education and whatnot. But a lot of that's being rejected today. And you're right. I think it's become more of a pagan era, if you will.

But the church then has a responsibility in a pagan era to really recognize that we're in an apostolic area. Now you think about the early church when Jesus sent the twelve out. Initially, one of the things he told them to do was to cast out demons. And I do believe there is more of a demonic activity in the world today simply due to the fact that we are no longer living in a Christian era, that the world has become more pagan. Again, we saw that blatantly on display there at the opening of the Olympics there in Paris. blatantly on display there at the opening of the Olympics there in Paris. And so our challenge would be to realize what did the early church do?

What did the church do in apostolic times? The church had to go out. You know, we didn't have churches and schools and hospitals and all this infrastructure. We basically had the apostles, a few hundred followers who went out with the good news of Jesus Christ. And I think that's what the church is going to have to do today is how do we go out and re-evangelize the world. Because again, the world is becoming more in the grip of the devil, if you will, simply because we are rejecting our Christian values and principles. The difference though, it seems to me, between the apostolic age and this age, which we might call the apostolic age analogously,

is that in the original apostolic age, people were proclaiming something that no one had heard. Now we're proclaiming something that people have rejected. So in a way, I feel sad, and in a way, I feel hopeful by considering this new apostolic age. Sad, you know, people say, well, how could you possibly be shocked at what happened at the Olympic Games? And you think, well, I'm, I'm, I am shocked and I'm saddened because, you know, maybe I don't remember

perfectly, but I think there was a time when it was, it felt like a unifying event and now it's become a platform to, to mock Christianity, to allow men to fight women in boxing, and all sorts of things going on. So in a way, it is shocking, it is sad, and I think we can admit that. But on the other hand, I suppose, to acknowledge that we no longer live in a Christian civilization, I don't know, I feel a sense of relief. Not relief because it's good, but we don't have to pretend. We don't have to pretend that, no, we're all Christians. We can go, no, this is a wasteland. Like, things are worse than

you think they are. Acknowledge that and sort of build from there rather than sort of building in the sky. You look at Pope Benedict. You know, when he was elected Pope, why did he take the name Benedict? Saint Benedict is one of the patron saints of Europe. And he chose that name because he realized that the gospel needed to be reproclaimed in the West. So a civilization that was built on Christianity had now rejected Christianity and the Western world became the new missionary field. And I think that's kind of where we're at today. What did the early church do? You know, the demonic, it's interesting, you know, in the so-called pagan world, when people hear the good news of Jesus Christ proclaimed the demons are cast

out, it's one and done. People ask, why do exorcisms have to be repeated on people? And it does seem that in the apostate world, people that have heard the good news of Jesus Christ and then have rejected it, that the demons have a greater hold on them. Again, they knew the truth and then they walked away from it. And that's why exorcisms on these people, when they have this spiritual awakening, if you will, need to be repeated more than once. I'm thinking of Christ's words about the demon that's cast out and goes throughout deserted spaces only to come back,

and things are much worse the second time around. So we have biblical precedent for people being possessed more than once. Yeah, that's chapter 11 of Luke's Gospel, you know, the demon is cast out and then the demon comes back and finds the house swept clean, meaning it's gone, that God hasn't been invited in. And then it goes and finds seven other demons worse than itself. There's a lot of people today that deal with the demonic, but they want nothing to do with God. Now, just hear that again for a minute. They know they're being afflicted by demons, but they want nothing to do with God. There's a growing trend today for people in a pagan world to see the exorcist as a magician,

that somehow I have a bag of tricks, then I can make their problems go away, but please do not bring God into the equation. But any exorcist will tell you that in an exorcism, Jesus is not a bystander, he's the main actor. People relying on me always say we're in trouble. But if we're relying on the power and the authority of Christ that he's given to the church and to the church's ministers, that's the right, you know, concept to have. When Jesus sent out the twelve,

they're in chapter nine of Luke's gospel, he gave them authority over all unclean spirits, over demons. So the church has the authority to cast them out. But a lot of people, again, do not want that relationship with Christ today. And I think that's the challenge we face at this moment in our Christian history, is how do we reintroduce Christ to folks? And I think there's a lot of Christians today. This has been touched on even the former Archbishop of Philadelphia, Charles Chaput, made the comment before that many people today may claim to be a Christian, they wear that label, but they absolutely have

no relationship with Jesus Christ. They just go through the motions of their faith and then at some point they may just completely abandon it. And usually they abandon that faith for something they consider to be more exciting or more appealing and then they return to pre-Christian era, so pagan faith and traditions, something that they believe will kind of give them what they want. But all forms of paganism focus on the human person. It's almost kind of the deification of humanity, and that's the temptation that was faced there in the Garden of Eden when the serpent says to Eve, you know,

basically you don't need God, you can be God. And I think paganism kind of supports that mentality, which is why it's appealing to a lot of people. You know I actually enjoy well the genre of horror. Now let me preface that by saying there's perhaps no other genre of story that is filled with so much trash but but I'm open to horror stories being helpful in that they can, well I think of also like Hansel and Gretel as one of the most horrific stories I've ever heard for example. So I think you can tell a horror story in a way that gives glory to God that doesn't glorify evil. That said, and to your point about people wanting

the exorcist to be the magician, I'm seeing an increase in horror movies. The last couple of times I've gone to the movie theater, the trailers that precede the movie, I don't know if this is happening to anybody else, but there seems to be this fascination on evil. But even in these movies now, we refuse there to be, I mean there are obviously classic exorcist films where the priest comes in and because of the power of Christ, you know, but a lot of the movies say don't don't do that to your point about where experiencing these things and yet we want some other solution, but faith and

hope in Jesus Christ. Yeah, and I just I wonder what your opinion is, or if you've noticed this fascination on the on evil. This is real kind of, yeah, fascination with with the dark side. There is there's been an awakening of that. And where does that where does it come from? I think it's just a fascination with the unknown and people kind of want to delve into that. But when people do that, they may believe that they have the unknown and people kind of want to delve into that. But when people do that,

they may believe that they have the strength and the power to control that type of environment. But you know, we can never use the devil. The devil will always end up using us. So we may be fascinated by the demonic and what the devil is trying to do and somehow believe we can control that, but we can't. And the demonic can play on a person's memory and imagination. So when people get fascinated with whether it's movies or literature or music that has a very dark side to it, they can either directly or indirectly be opening themselves up to a greater

presence of the devil in their lives. Now that's something that like worries me when I've heard people say things like that, that you could be doing Now that's something that like worries me. When I've heard people say things like that, that you could be doing something that's opening you up to Satan. That worries me, maybe it worries me because I've sometimes heard people make it seem like there's all sorts of things that you could be doing even unintentionally that's going to give the devil

a foothold or you're gonna open a crack or to then be possessed. And that seems to me to be, I don't know, like maybe false. I'm not saying that we can open ourselves up to the demonic. But when you make people afraid that if they do anything that they're somehow going to be possessed, this seems like. Yeah, we should. We shouldn't see the demonic everywhere.

And we can still like if people are, it's like always hear questions about Harry Potter books, for example, parents always ask, should my children be reading those? And my response is always, well, which books do your children know better? The books of the Bible or Harry Potter? Which one can they readily quote? Now if they know their Bible and they're reading Harry Potter, at least when they're reading Harry Potter, they can filter that through their Christian beliefs. But unfortunately,

there's a lot of people today that just do not know basic Christian principles, and so they read these things, watch movies or whatever, and they get drawn more into the darkness. But I think if people know their faith well enough and they're grounded and they're watching these movies and whatnot, at least those can be teachable moments. They can help solidify your faith even more. So again, as I said earlier, you know, we can use the devil to bring about greater good. What does it mean then to say a person can open themselves up to the demonic? What does that mean and how does it happen?

I think it means that they become more fascinated with the demonic and then they abandon God. So it's almost like the darkness becomes more dominant in their life, more desirable. You know, that's the danger people always talk about, like the practice of yoga, for example. Well, what's wrong with yoga? People will say, you know, I'm just doing exercise. Well, exercise is not bad, but the spirituality that's attached to that can be problematic. So people may begin with the best of intentions. Oh,

I'm going to do yoga because I'm going to exercise. Yeah. But then along the way they're like, well, these spiritual exercises that go with that seem to be more appealing than going to mass or going to confession or praying or reading the Bible. And so they start doing that more and more and more, and the next thing you know, they're being pulled further and further away from their Christian roots. Did you go through a phase as a priest where you either doubted the existence of the demonic or didn't realize the extent to which people were affected by the demonic? I've always believed in the demonic, even when my bishop appointed me back in 2005, he told me that he wanted a priest

who believed in the reality of evil, but not one who would be too quick to believe that everybody who came to me was actually dealing with the demonic. That may have been their interpretation, but I really need to investigate that to determine whether or not that's the true cause. Anybody that reaches out to me, I would readily agree that they're suffering. But then the bigger question is, is that suffering due to spiritual physical or mental causes? And then trying to get to the root cause.

But I've always believed in the demonic as a reality. It's not just humanities inhumane treatment of one another. It's not just something of our making, but there really is. Evil is personified in what we call the devil and these other fallen angels. Did you see nefarious? Nefarious? Yes. Wasn't that an excellent film? It was because it points out a quality of the devil that most people don't think about. And that's his great intellect. Now most people are horrified. You think of the devil, you know,

there's the pitchfork and the hooves and the horns and all of that. But I think sometimes we fail to realize the great intellectual nature of angelic beings. And even when these angels fell, they still retain that intellect. It's now darkened because it's no longer illumined by the glory of God, but that intellect is a lot greater than ours, and they can use that to try to deceive us, kind of luring us into their darkness. And I think that's what I mean by kind of the deception or how people may unknowingly be walking down the pathway that's leading them into the darkness of the evil one.

You said your bishop didn't want you to think of every person who came to you as being actually impacted directly by the devil. What are some examples, if you can obviously share them without giving away any personal details, of people who have come to you and you thought, no, this isn't of the demonic, and how did you make that determination? I read a comment recently from St. John Vienny and he was asked what had he learned about human behaviour listening to Confessions 16 hours a day. And I started thinking about that and I put it in terms of this ministry that I've done, you know, what have I learned about humanity and you know, human suffering in doing this ministry? And I think I would echo the words of St. John Vianney. He said that he learned that people are a lot more sad than we realize.

And I think in this ministry, I've discovered that there's a lot of hurting people out there and they're looking for answers to their, their pain and suffering. Sometimes they want to attribute that directly to a demonic influence. When in reality it may be that it was the evil that they suffered at the hands of someone else. Cause there's a lot of people today that are just simply in despair to their, their pain and suffering. Sometimes they want to attribute that directly to a demonic influence,

when in reality it may be that it was the evil that they suffered at the hands of someone else. Because there's a lot of people today that are just simply in despair. But how do you make that determination that this isn't an act to say, well, I mean, I'd like to get to the point where we talk about the distinctions between possession and obsession and things like this, but like how do you make, because I suppose all of us in one way or another can be impacted by Satan and the demonic, what it means to be a Christian in the world and fighting the fight. This is why we pray the same Michael prayer.

You would never say to somebody, don't pray the same Michael prayer because you're not being impacted by the demonic. But how do you make the determination that, no, this isn't what you think it is. You're not actually possessed. I think we're all impacted by the demonic on some level. You know, we talk about extraordinary demonic activity, whether it's possession, obsession, the mental attacks, vexation, the physical attacks, infestation, the presence of evil in the location with an object, those are extraordinary signs. But there is ordinary demonic activity that we all deal with. And I think I've shared that before,

you know, temptation, temptation is that it's rude. But then there's four characteristics that go with that. It always begins with deception. The devil gets us to buy into lies. The deception leads to division. We find ourselves broken. That division will lead to diversion. We look for something that we believe is going to help put the pieces of our lives back together. But if it's not God, it's only going to leave us broken. And that diversion leads to despair. You look at a lot of people today, there's a lot of despair in this world. Oh, yeah. And, you know, people that are truly living out their relationship with Christ should be radiating joy.

I mean, you think of the saints of the church. You see a picture of them. What's always around their head? It's a halo. You know, it's not their glory. They're radiating. They're radiating, they're radiating the glory of God. In Christians today, we need to radiate that glory of God in a world that is becoming less and less Christian and more and more pagan because people have to be able to look to a Christian and say, what in the world do you have? You seem to be happy and content, filled with joy. And then we can say what we have is the good news of Jesus Christ and give it to

them. I think that's the re-evangelization that has to take place in the world today. But there's a lot of people that simply lack any meaning, direction and purpose in life. Just listening to stories, people that come to me, people normally self-diagnosed by the way, 99% of the people come to me and say they need an exorcism, but simply pushing through that and talking to them and allowing them to, okay tell me more about that. You get, you know years ago there was the old reporter Paul Harvey here in the United States, he would give the news

and then say, and now the rest of the story. And so when people talk to me and they tell me they're possessed, I always want to say, what's the rest of the story? Yeah. Break that open a little bit more and then you begin to see the darkness that these people have fallen into. The devil may not be the cause of all of our problems, but he is an opportunist. If we experience brokenness in our lives, the devil wants to insert himself and to break that even more. The role of the church is to bring the pieces together. Mason So then how then do you make the determination you are not possessed when they're coming to you with a story about what they're dealing with?

Chris You know, I think that just comes with years of experience. It's almost, I, yeah, I'm in a, uh, support group of exorcist. Oh yeah. We have a zoom call every other month. We were discussing this topic, uh, just this month and we were discussing the fact that there's kind of a priest radar, if you will. You just kind of know, okay, you just know. And I think that's something that the Holy Spirit helps to reveal to the priest in his ministry. Yes, this is truly something demonic.

And then how do you direct them accordingly? Like maybe they need psychological help, maybe the medication, maybe they need to be hospitalized. Because I'm sure they don't come to you, you disagree with them that they're possessed and say goodbye, you're probably going to encourage them to get the right help. Yeah, I want to encourage people to get pastoral care. I usually ask people, do you belong to a home church? You know, half the people who talk to me are not Catholic. So if they are Catholic, go have you talked to your parish priest? Well, I can't. Well, you should be able to talk to your parish priest about any spiritual dilemma that you believe that you're

in. And then if they're not Catholic, have you talked to your pastor? So again, people need support, pastoral care, and they're gonna get that best from their parish or their home church, that support that they need. I've helped connect people with people in the mental health profession. So again, I agree that people are suffering,

but I want to direct them to where they can find the true help that they need. And what do you say to the skeptic who says all of this is just mental health issues? And you know, maybe you see some pretty weird stuff, some violent stuff, some people who are showing more strength than you would think they should have. But you know what, the human person is complex. And so what you're dealing with is not the demonic, not the supernatural like you think. What you're dealing with is just human brokenness and labeling it the demonic is maybe the Christian way of understanding it is actually ultimately unhelpful.

So how do you know that what you're dealing with in an exorcism is not just emotionally damaged people expressing that damage. I think it just goes back to the recognition of faith. You know, if you have faith, then believing is seeing. And for people today that may doubt or be, you know, more scientific, they may use that word, you know, what's the science of that? They always say, well, seeing is believing. I always have people say to me, well, you know, what's the science of that? They always say, well, seeing is believing. I always have people say to me, well, you know, it's very convenient that the church doesn't record exorcisms, because if you can record them and show them, then that would

help us believe. Right. But again, you know, we all know that things can be manipulated in so many ways today that even if people have that so-called, you know, hard evidence, they would still say, ah, it's been manipulated, it's not really true. It surely would help some people. I mean, just like today's interview, there's gonna be people who say, that's ridiculous and you're making all this up. Well, we're gonna get to some stories soon.

But then there will be people who will believe, like you told me earlier, that person who contacted you from Australia, who said they became Catholic after listening to this show. So can't the same logic apply? Yeah, maybe some people seeing video footage of an exorcism will think it is being fabricated, but some will come to faith. So why doesn't the church film it for that reason? I think the answer might be the flip side too. Will they come to

faith or will they come to a greater fascination with the demonic? But the same could be said about this discussion. Someone will make that argument that this is just going to lead people to a fascination with the demonic not God So I'm gonna just play devil's advocate and say why not film them? I mean, and if you say well, it's a matter of privacy Okay. Well either have the individual or their family sign a waiver beforehand Or even you know that you then film it and then maybe once that person is in their right mind They can agree to then have this thing revealed. Why not do that? I can see why people would think that the Church is hiding something when they have these exorcists telling these fantastic stories,

but there's no evidence for it. I think that it's not only the exorcists that have these stories, I think a lot of people do, just from the experience that they've had. But my response to all this would be that the church is more interested in turning on the light of Christ in the lives of people who have fallen into darkness rather than TV cameras. So it's not the light from the camera, but it's the light of Christ that people need. And that's really where the main focus should be. That's not going to convince a lot of people. Probably not, but that's not what you're about. You know, he convinced people. What was it like being on Patrick Bette David's show? Because I know that you were being drilled with similar questions. What was he like behind the scenes? What? How did that interview go? He was very kind and cordial. You know, I don't mind doing interviews with people that may be a bit antagonistic, because

again I think that's what the church has to do in apostolic times. You have to go out and meet people where they are. And what people do with the information I share is up to them. You know, it's kind of plant the seed and see where it goes. But I enjoy that very much. Did you get any feedback? Surely you get a lot of feedback from people. He's got a much larger platform than us, obviously. I've got a lot of feedback. Some people were like, why in the world would you go on there? And you know, they're going to attack you and the church and that type of thing.

But you're just sharing your own experience. Exactly. He even told me that he did some investigation into me and he goes, most people are motivated by money or power or sex. He goes, but that doesn't seem to be you. So he's like, I believe everything you've said. Wow. Men, have you checked out Exodus 90 lately? If you've heard of Exodus 90 before, you're probably thinking of cold showers and Lent, but the Exodus 90 app offers so much more.

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What is something you've seen in an exorcism? That leads you to believe this cannot merely be an issue of mental health, that this is actually supernatural. Let me say this first. So what does the word supernatural mean? It means to be outside of nature. Only God is outside of nature. I think of the first 10 words in the in the book of Genesis, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So what does that tell us? In the beginning, God creates time, the heavens, God creates space, the earth, God creates matter. So God created time, space and matter, which means God is outside of that. Now I can say that, but it kind of gives me a headache thinking about it because this is my reality and trying to conceptualize. So only God is supernatural. Demons we would say are

preternatural. So they're above our understanding of nature. That's why demons can do things that we would say, well, that's not humanly possible. How is a body levitating? How is, you know, head spinning or a body crawling up the wall like a spider? These types of things. All right. Those three things. Have you seen anything remotely like those things? I've seen them all. You've seen a body levitating, a head spinning, and someone climbing up a wall.

Absolutely. Yeah, all right, that's gonna be, oh wow. The skeptics will come on for sure now. But again, it's about, Explain, could you, I mean, They're outside of our understanding of the natural order so they can do things that we would think would be impossible. Was this one individual who did these three things?

These are multiple over the years. Would it be OK to ask you to tell me what each of those each of those three experiences were like? Sure. So tell me what it was like seeing somebody levitate. And how did you know they were actually levitating and it wasn't just some sort of optical illusion Maybe you were drunk accidentally or something Maybe not the second one. I'm joking, but the first one how did you know it was legit and what happened? You know, so when I was appointed in 05 I did training in Rome in the early part of 2006

There was the Franciscan priest who allowed me to basically shadow him for three months one of the exorcisms that I sat in on was where the lady, when she manifested, the demon levitated. You know, anytime somebody is possessed, all the actions of that body are now wholly defined by the demon. So I would not say this lady levitated. I would say the demon did it. Because when somebody is possessed, the demon is treating the body as if it were its own, using the person's eyes to see, the mouth to speak, the ears to hear and so on. So I'm sitting there and the priest that's doing the exorcism, you know, he's praying and I'm looking and the demon all of a sudden gets this hideous grin on its face and then just all of a sudden I look over and the body is starting to rise out of the chair and the demon is basically saying look at what I can do and I'm kind of looking at this in disbelief

like what in the world and the priest that's doing the exorcism you know he has the right of exorcism in his hand and you know he's like like, pray, pray, pray. And he looks over the corner of his eye and he sees the levitation too. He goes back to the book, pray, pray, pray. And he looks over again and then he just takes his hand and puts it on the body of this lady and pushes her back down into the chair, the body into the chair. He didn't even phase one minute. He did. I'm over there like in disbelief and he's just like, ah, business as usual.

So she was sitting and levitating. How far did she levitate? Like a foot? She brought a foot out of the chair before the priest then pushed the body back into the chair. Basically said, I'm not interested in your theatrics. I'm only interested in the power of God, what God wants to do here. Very teachable moment. You know,

you can read anything you want about exorcisms and learn all of that with the church believes about the demonic and all those types of things. But to have a internship, it's like, you know, you go to medical school, you know, you study, study, study, but then being that intern, that's where you really, you know, the rubber hits the pavement, so to speak, and you really begin to put it into practice. You said that when the bishop appointed you as exorcist, you believed in the demonic. But did you really believe that you would see these preternatural signs, these humanly impossible manifestations? Probably not, no. I would not say, you know, growing up, you know, I grew up in a traditional Catholic family in Indianapolis. I have eight brothers and sisters, and my mother was a convert, all those types of things. Faith was very important to us. So just accepted that and then becoming a priest. You know, my

bishop that appointed me initially was the rector of the college where I went to seminary. So he kind of knew me, so I think he selected me because he knew during my formation that I would be a good candidate for this role. I wasn't seeking to be the exorcist, kind of the last job I thought I would ever have. Did the did the Franciscan who took you under his wing say you might see some things that you can't explain? Like were you prepared for that or did you just think you were going to go into say a few prayers? Yeah, we did not talk about this beforehand. Now after these experiences we would have some conversations But I was how did he talk to you about it? It sounded like he was

quite casual about it was very casual. His name Father Carmen a day Philippus Franciscan priest. He was pastor of st. Lawrence outside the walls in Rome and he along with father Gabriel a more through trained by a passionate priest father Gabriel a more well-known former chief exorcist in Rome passed away in Father Gabriel Amorth were trained by a passionate priest. Father Gabriel Amorth, well known, uh, former chief exorcist in Rome passed away in 2016, but they were both trained by Father Candido Amintini who was doing exorcisms at the Holy stairs in Rome. People that have ever been to Rome, you know, Holy stairs right across the street from the Basilica of St. John Latter.

A couple months ago I was there. I was there last month and at the top of the. John Latterin. A couple months ago I was there. I was there last month. Oh, beautiful. And at the top of the stairs is a little chapel. Yeah. There's a bust of Fr. Cognito Amintini in there. Okay. He's now a servant of God. But I really think he's the one that helped bring

exorcism back into the modern era. I want to get back to that, but before I do, spinning of the head, what does that mean? And what did that look like? It's really forms of bodily contortions and spinnings where when the demon is manifesting and trying not to, you know, focus, trying to get me to not focus on the prayers of the church.

Cause this demon, you know, before the head started spinning as I'm praying, the demon looks at me and is going blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like what you're saying is a bunch of bunk. Look at what I can do. And then you see these contortions in head spinning. Okay. When you say spinning, what does that mean? Just turning in a, what you would consider to be humanly impossible. All the way around 360 degrees?

Not 360, no, I didn't see that. Okay, so then what's so crazy about just moving your head back and forth? Oh no, but even more so than that. Almost like where you can like... Look behind yourself. ... almost look behind, yeah. Okay, so it wasn't like, wow, this person's really flexible. All right, what about the crawling up the wall like a spider?

Explain to us how, if you're allowed, how that happens. Demons manifest, you know, every case of exorcism is different. You don't know really what you're going to encounter or how the demon may choose to manifest. Demons are very arrogant, if you will. They cannot accept the fact that they're being commanded to do something by a fact that they're being commanded to do something by a creature that they consider to be inferior to themselves. So they look for shock value. They basically want the exorcist and those who are assisting the exorcist in the room to look at what they're doing, look

at their power and not the power of God. So explain to us what it was like when you first saw this and exactly what happened. The demon manifests and then jumps out of the chair and goes over to the wall and starts to climb up like a spider. It's not possible that they just sort of jumped up. How did you know they were crawling on the actual wall because there they are they were crawling on the wall that's how you knew okay yeah you know the thing is and all of these I don't even pay attention that stuff hardly anymore yeah it's almost like I see this stuff and I just want to yawn yeah I think I'd need to excuse myself

to the bathroom because I would be throwing up or something else. But I think again about the priest that trained me. I mean, it wasn't the things that he necessarily said, it's just how he handled himself and watching him and his demeanor. You know, because most exorcists, when you see all these things, you'll just sit there and the exorcist will just, even if I'm kind of interviewing somebody and trying to understand the situation,

even if during that interview, the demonic manifest or starts, you know, doing all kinds of throwing out profanities and whatnot, it's just, okay, take a few notes here, but not to be surprised by any of it I was talking to one exorcist who said that during the rite of exorcism the demon started correcting the priests Latin That's that sense of arrogance and The thing is that you stupid priest he said and then he would know he she it it yeah Because you know not it. I guess what would you refer to a demon as it doesn't have sex

Sometimes we just use the word here whatever just in a generic sense. Yeah, because again, we're trying to put it in our context of understanding So, I mean but they don't want to manifest but they reach the point Where they just can't resist. It's like in the story you just shared, the demon wants to mock the priest for his bad Latin, so he blurts that out, but as soon as he does, it's game over. You know, when the demon starts levitating, game over. Head spinning, game over. Crawling up the wall, game over. You know, you've now revealed and showed yourself and now the power of God's gonna win out.

It sounded like you were saying that this exorcist under whom you apprenticed helped you, right? And kind of talked to you afterwards about the things you've seen. He also helped you by not being afraid during these manifestations. So do you help other priests? Cause I'm sure exorcists feel lonely, either because they're not being believed by people or because they see things that frighten them, or they see things they didn't think they would ever see, like someone crawling up a wall.

Do you ever counsel them in the context of fraternity or collegiality. When I was appointed, I became one of only 12 exorcists in United States back in 2005. So there really wasn't a network of fellow exorcists to connect with. And a lot of it, I was just kind of making it out on my own. The archdiocese of Indianapolis has always had an exorcist, the priest before me, Monsignor John Ryanyan he's passed away now. He passed away, which is how I got his job But he was the parish priest where I went to grade school So we've always had a priest in this role

Teaching grade school kids dealing with demons is a great way to prepare for them I'm joking. Okay. All right. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Do you what?

Is it difficult for exorcists to be looked at with suspicion or skepticism? Not just by people they meet, but maybe other Catholics and even other priests. Absolutely. Is that haften Does that happen? It does. I think exorcists kind of, you know, we need the support of one another because few people realize what we deal with. You know, even in fellow priests, you can be at a priest gathering and they're like, Oh, here comes the exorcist. You know, maybe kind of, but they have no idea the things that we encounter because it almost kind of

begins to isolate you just a bit. Cause when you deal with so many people that are on the so-called fringes or dealing with darkness day in and day out, you know, I'm the pastor of two parishes in my diocese, but I'm also the exorcist. And because I'm publicly known, I get 70 requests a week from people who believe they're dealing with the demonic that are seeking help. And it's that volume of darkness. It just keeps coming and coming and coming. You know,

it can eat away at you if you're not well grounded in your priesthood. You know, the years that I've done this, I tell people that I believe that the ministry of exorcism has helped me as a priest to truly see priesthood as a vocation and not an occupation. Because you look at the church today, their priests wear many different hats, they're pastoring multiple parishes, they live in their cars. And that the temptation is that just becomes a job. But when you realize, you know, that evil is real, the devil is out there. It really helps. It helped me to discover priesthood as a vocation.

And when I say vocation, I mean a calling from God. I do what I do because God has called me to do it. Well back to that movie, what did we just mention? Nefarious? Nefarious. It showed you how powerful a priest is and what happens when a priest doesn't take himself seriously. Like that one priest who came in and the demon realized, oh, he doesn't even believe in me, please, he's not a threat at all. But initially the demon was terrified of him. I think it's not an act of humility to downplay our importance.

You know, the Lord has called you to a mighty work to pretend that he hasn't, doesn't do anybody any good. Rather, I think what we have to do is acknowledge what the Lord has called us to and then try to live up to that and then repent when we fail. That's the notion that if a priest takes his priesthood seriously, so will the devil. But if the priest doesn't take his priesthood seriously, then neither will the devil. And there may be a lot of priests today that just kind of question their calling and their identity, especially you look at clergy sex abuse and all these types of things that can tarnish the priesthood.

And then to a certain extent, then the devil can use that uncertainty just as a way to cause priests to fall into this sense of occupation rather than vocation. Any priest can pray with anybody. You don't have to be an exorcist. Somebody's dealing with the demonic. Any priest could say, as a priest of Jesus Christ, I command you. That's just from the very core of Holy Orders. But I think a lot of priests today don't realize the power and the authority that they have

simply by virtue of their ordination. So with all of these exorcists now, receiving all of these emails now, there must be some patterns, it would seem to me, as to how the demonic manifests themselves in people's lives. So what are some of the more prominent ways that when people reach out they're saying, here's what I'm experiencing? Primarily, it seems to me, the common denominator is that people experience some brokenness in their life. And rather than turning to God, they turn away from God. And when they turn away from God, they usually turn to the world of the occult.

Okay, you know, they believe there's some power there, kind of the notion God has power, the devil has power. You know, if you're broken, then you can turn to either one to try to put the lives, pieces of your life back together. But I think it's really, really the sense of brokenness that was so vivid to me many years ago. I remember meeting these two brothers in Indianapolis. They were living in an apartment and the older brother told me that his younger brother was worshiping Satan and

the whole notion of Santeria. And he goes, will you come and talk to him? And when I arrived at the apartment, the young man saw me and he manifested and he ran into his room. Well, how did he manifest? It was just kind of like this rawr and then he ran into the room, closed his door. And then the older brother and I went down. The older brother was able to get the door open. And the image of what I saw always sticks with me, this notion of brokenness, because the young man,

I looked in the room, there was nothing on the wall, no pictures, no curtains on the windows. There was no furniture, no carpeting. The floor was covered with broken glass from wall to wall. And this young man was laying on top of the broken glass chanting, and then I looked up and there was an altar to Satan in his room. That was the only so-called piece of furniture, so he was in there worshiping Satan on broken glass. But that's what the demonic is really all about. It's about brokenness, whether the demonic causes

the brokenness or perpetuates the brokenness that we experience in life. You know, there was a lady that I had worked with and she had shared with me that she had suffered abuse by her father growing up in Mexico and then she turned to a curandero and brujas. So curandero, those in the Mexican culture, they believe you can, their so-called white magic or brujas who would use black magic. You know, all magic is inherently evil because the power behind it is the power of the evil one. And anything the devil does ultimately is to bring about the demise of the human person. Even if initially it may seem to be a benefit, that's just a trap

of the devil to lure the person in. So suffering abuse by her father, she turns to brujas who say, we can help you put the pieces of your life back together. But no matter what they did, she said she was only broken even more and more and more. I think I've shared that story with you the last time I was on here where when I was talking to her and she's telling me about the abuse and then she asked me she said, will you help me? And this had been going on for 43 years because the abuse started when she was seven and then she was 50 years old at the time. And a neighbor lady was a

devout Catholic was encouraging her to come to the church. Parish priests went over to visit them and said, there's something out here. I can't, I don't know what it is. And it was the demonic. Cause then I, when she said, will you help me? And she's sobbing uncontrollably. And I just said, Jesus is the one who can help you. And when I said that, that's when the demon manifested in front of me, all the sobbing immediately stopped. And her eyes turned green. Her pupils are slanted like a serpent.

And this voice comes out of her mouth and says, who's he? He has no power over us. Now, when I did the exorcism about a week later, you know, the demon mocks me and says, you can't get rid of us. There's the green eyes again in the slanted pupils. The demon says, You can't get rid of us. We've been here too long and you're not strong enough. And they began to mock me as I was praying the prayers of the church. So when people you say get all these emails, are they from typically priests who know of

people? Are they the friends of people they believe are being affected? Or is it people themselves who are saying things are happening? It's all the above, but primarily it's coming from people themselves that believe that they've been exposed to the demonic. So just because somebody is possessed doesn't mean they're manifesting all the time. Right. So other than, I know, I hear what you're saying, that the brokenness occurs, they seek a solution

and they seek it in the wrong place. And this leads to maybe demonic possession or activity or infestation or something like that. But what is the manifestation that they're presumably telling you about or the infestation that's taking place within their homes. What I'm sure if you would like put this all on a on a spreadsheet, there's probably some that are more prominent than others. I guess that's what I'm getting at.

Yeah, like for demonic infestation, you know the presence of evil in the location or with an object. So maybe somebody went on a vacation and they bought some piece of artwork or something That they didn't know was cursed and they bring it into their homes Maybe people play with a Ouija board for example, and is that what they're writing to you about? Oh, yeah, here's what I did and now yep, but what is the effect of these things that they're writing to you about That they believe that there's there's demonic activity activity, strange things are occurring in their home. Yeah, that's what I'm asking. What is the strange stuff that they're saying is happening?

What does it tend to be that people write to you and say, this stuff's happening? Because I'm sure they're trying to convince you in a sense. I'm not just someone who's having a hard time. Things are happening I can't explain. What are those things that they're telling you? They start hearing noises in the house, footsteps, they hear lights or they don't hear lights but lights are going on and off, objects that kind of

disappearing in one location appearing in another, they will find that a sense of irritability has come about, they find the family members are arguing with one another which wasn't there before, so they're trying to figure out the root cause of all of this. And it may be that an object was brought into the home. Maybe somebody, a member of the family, unbeknownst to the others, was starting to engage in occult activities, satanic rituals and practices. You know, demons are neither here nor there. They're pure spirits. They don't have an address. We say they're here or there.

They're choosing to act in a location. So there's a demonic presence in someone's home. My question would be, well, why is that the case? What did somebody do? What did they bring into their home? You know, a lot of times people will say, I just had someone the other day reach out to me and they had a whole collection of things that were used for magic, you know, a lot of times people will say, I just had someone the other day reach out to me and they had a whole collection of things that were used for magic, you know, whether it's tarot cards and crystals and these types of things.

And they're like, I know now that this invited the demonic into my home, what do I do with them? And so in those cases tell people those items need to be destroyed, bless them with holy water, destroy them. If they're not comfortable doing that, they should take them to their local parish priest and have him dispose of them as well. Yeah, I understand, you know, bringing in tarot cards or things that are obviously kind

of against the Christian faith. But how does this not just make everyone really afraid now that there's something in their house somewhere that they got from somewhere that could have been cursed? Like you said, a piece of artwork or something. Yeah, I think, you know, I always tell people that if you're really going to live out your Christian faith, then you should root out of your life anything that is contrary to that. So the artwork you're talking about isn't just bland artwork like this photo of Cardinal George Bell, but you're talking about isn't just bland artwork like this photo of Cardinal George Bell. But you're saying it could be that somebody brought in some African

artwork. Maybe they went on a trip to Africa and where they found something out of flea market. They thought it was kind of nice, but they didn't realize that maybe it reflected some type of deity within that culture. And then they brought that into their home. Maybe it's been cursed. deity within that culture, and then they brought that into their home. Maybe it's been cursed, and because they brought it into their home, then they invited some type of evil presence along with that as well. Okay, so it sounds like you're saying that a place can be infested with a demonic spirit or multiple demonic spirits through maybe something being cursed or something through maybe something being cursed or something representing a quote unquote deity, so a demon that's brought into the house. But a person can only be sort of possessed if they kind of align their will or give themselves over to the demonic in some way. It's not like

you can bring a cursed piece of artwork into somebody's house and then boom, they're possessed even though they were living in a state of grace. Correct. So what is, what experience have you had of infestation then? So you've got people who were living in a house themselves are not possessed, maybe living good upright lives. But as you say, they write to you and they say they're hearing noises or footsteps or things like this. What's been some experiences? Do you even deal with that as an exorcist? Were you going to houses not to exorcise people but places? You know, early on I did more of that, but I really encourage the local priest or the deacon to go in there and bless the location, just because of the volume of people that I get. And any priest can handle cases of vexation,

infestation and obsession. Again, the notion of taking your priesthood seriously and so will the devil. A lot of priests don't know how to handle these things, so they simply want to brush it off to the exorcist, but it's not really feasible for me to be able to go around. I mean, I get requests to bless homes. I had a guy reach out to me the other day, he lives 200 miles from me. He's not even Catholic. I wanted to know if he could have me come and bless his house, because strange things were happening in there. What things? They were hearing noises, and then they did an investigation and believed that these things existed in the house

prior to them moving in. They had talked to the previous tenants so they would hear footsteps at night. Lights would go on and off, things I described earlier, pictures falling off the wall. And there was a great sense of fear because whenever people, you know, they explain these things to me, I always say, well, what's your reaction? Are you afraid? Because I think when something is demonic, there's something innate within us that says this is not good. This is a threat. This is a threat. We need to flee. How did this folk, this fella get you an email? I mean, being publicly known, I guess you go on and wow. But I told him, he goes, well, I'm not Catholic. I said, well,

you don't, you don't need me. I go, even if you're not Catholic, just reach out to the local Catholic parish and say, can you please come and bless my home? And is it your experience that when this takes place, the blessing takes place, that these manifestations or infestations ceases usually? They will cease, but then the other part of that is if the person really isn't a They will cease. But then the other part of that is if the person really isn't a godly person, they need to do something about that. So it's not just enough, it goes back to what we talked about earlier, it's not just enough for the evil to be gone, but how do you invite God into your home? Should Christians be afraid of the devil? No, not. I think the more we know about the devil,

the more we come to realize there's nothing to fear about him. It's all a bunch of parlor tricks and whatnot. I always think of the movie The Wizard of Oz, you know, when the curtain is pulled back, what seemed to be a threat really was nothing whatsoever. And, you know, the devil is kind of the same way. Once we understand who he is, he's nothing to fear. Okay. And I think that's what people should take from discussions like this. It shouldn't be,

okay, I'm afraid now of every object in my house or this, that, or the other, but just asking the question, am I living out my Christian faith? We all fall short, which is why it's important to, you know, go to confession. We, we repent of what we've done and we grow because the human person, we have the capacity to grow in holiness and virtue. We can say that was a really dumb thing to do. And we can learn from that. You look at the saints of the church, they're not perfect people. Read their lives, but they came to the point where they realized that they needed to do something and to make a change and invite God more deeply into their life, and they did that. You know, we all have things maybe in

our past that we've done that we're not proud of, but the demonic would want to play on that. That sense of guilt, we can't change the past. It is what it is. We learn from it and we move forward. You know, I think of Archbishop Fulton Sheen. I've read a lot of his books recently and he talks about that. If we're truly sorry for our sins and you know, and the love of God is truly in our hearts, then on the day of judgment, God's going to permit something pretty incredible to happen.

He's going to choose to forget our sins and only see the goodness and the love within us. Because if God is love, and the goal of the Christian life is one day to unite ourselves with God, to share in the indwelling of the persons of the Holy Trinity, then God, who is love, that love has to be within us. And even if we give God just a little, He can make something great happen.

You know, what does Jesus say from the cross? Father, forgive them for they know not what they do, but we just have to repent. You know, you think of the story of the fall and maybe that's one of the key things in a world today. When you look at the rise of paganism, it's, we no longer believe in the fall of humanity. But I've said before, and I like to say it again, is that Christianity is not about our search for God, it's about God's search for us. God always makes the first move. That's how much God loves

the human person. Adam and Eve sin. God moves to the garden and says, Adam, where are you? Now, God knows where he is physically. He wants to see if Adam will acknowledge that he's in a state of sin. And if Adam had simply said, I've sinned against you and I'm sorry, I think humanity would be a lot different, but he didn't. He played the blame game. You know, well, the woman you put here, Eve, what have you done? Well, the serpent made me do it You know the devil can propose but he can't impose we all have free will we have choices that we can make we can make

the choice for God or we can make the choice for the demonic and the good news is if we make a bad choice We can always repent and God is always ready to forgive because God's love and mercy, that's the greatest thing we can know in life. It's not the sins we commit. I encounter people all the time they're trapped in their guilt, but they have to be able to move beyond that. Great line from a book I read in the early 1980s when I'm in college seminary in Southern Indiana says, if you try to get rid of qualities about yourself that you don't like,

then you declare yourself to be more and more non-existent and your devils grow fatter and fatter. So we may not like some of our baggage from the past, but it's a part of the story of our life. We can either embrace it and deal with it or continue to run from it. And when we run from it, I think the devil uses that against us. So it's the notion that we have to embrace that baggage. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world.

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Hello.com slash Matt Fred. I've heard it said that when we run from our shame, we legitimize its claims against us. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so what do you say to people who are caught up in their guilt and they think there's just no way, Father, that God will forgive me. Maybe he forgives other people, but he doesn't forgive me.

What kind of advice do you give them to move beyond that? Because I doubt it's merely an intellectual exercise. Because you can tell people that God's mercy is infinite and your sins can only ever be finite, all you want. You can tell them God desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. But sometimes it feels like there is a spiritual block that's preventing me to accept the mercy God has for me. And it seems to me that that, well, that seems to fit the description of Satan as the accuser of our brethren in Revelation 12 10. It would seem that he has a vested interest in us

believing we are not forgivable, not incapable of being forgiven at this point because of what we've done. I think that the reason people hold on to their guilt, this is something I thought a lot about, but I think a lot of people today have a distorted image of God. We don't know who God is. You know, some people will look at God as, well, anything goes, everyone's saved. People may have that image of God is, you know, going to throw a lightning bolt your way the moment you step out of line, that notion of hell, fire and brimstone. the moment you step out of line, that notion of hellfire and brimstone. But what is your image of God? I have a great school at my parish and every once in a while I like to ask the, the kindergartners to draw me a picture of God,

because I always want to know what do children, when they think of God, what image do they have? I've never seen an image drawn by any of these children of some type of horrific figure that's just waiting for us to do something wrong so that he can throw the book at us. It makes me think of that line in scripture where it says, unless you become like this child, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. But I think a lot of people today just don't know who God is. They may be praying, they may be going to church, but if you ask them who is God, usually it's silence. But I think a lot of times people deep down have this image of God as the one who's going to really throw the book at them. This is why reading scripture is so important. Saint Bonaventure in his little work Journey of the Mind to God talks about how scripture kind of untwists us. He says, sin twists us, bends man over on himself so that he is incapable of seeing

himself, the world, or God correctly. And the Word of God untwists us so that we can see things correctly. And I think when we cease reading Scripture we start to imbibe different views about God. Maybe it's what the devil would have us believe about God, maybe it's what the world would have us believe about God, but it's as you say not what the Scriptures proclaim God to be. And so when we read the scripture, it's almost like blowing the dust and grime off of our concept of God, and we see just how kind He is. That's something I learned recently while reading the Gospel of Matthew. You know, it talks about how the Pharisees and scribes were kind of astounded

because He taught as one with authority. When I read it, I was astounded at how kind Jesus was and is, you know, even not allowing the 5,000 to leave because they might faint along the way. So he cares not only for their spiritual well-being but their physical well-being as well. And then you see this innocent man, this innocent God-man, be tortured, crucified, and what is it? The whole way he's forgiving everybody. He's forgiving the very people who drove nails through him and no doubt those who spat on him, blindfolded him, hit him on the head, and he forgives the thief next to him. And if you compare all four gospels of these thieves and you take them together, it would appear, because at

different times it says both were mocking Christ, and so it would appear that the good thief was at one point mocking Christ while on the cross, if you put those gospels together before repenting and you have him even forgiving him. And so I think like what else does the good Jesus have to do to convince us that he's on our side, that he loves us, even going so far as to give us his body in the Eucharist and as if that weren't enough, he then gives us his heart to St. Margaret Mariella Cock as if to say what else can I give you? And so how much of our unwillingness to accept his mercy do you think comes from the demons?

The name Satan means accuser. He gets us to act independently against God. So to use our free wills in a manner that we don't draw closer to God, but we drift further away. And then once we do, he accuses us. We fall into his trap. And then that's why I think we see a lot of despair in the world. No, I like etymology words and the word enthusiasm.

Yeah. You know what the word enthusiasm means? Well, I know what it means. I don't know the etymology of it. So I think of the, I think enthusiasm is kind of the flip side of despair. You think of being enthusiastic, you're filled with joy and purpose. You're excited about something. Well, the word enthusiasm comes from two greek words, Enthios. To be in God. Okay. So if we are in God,

something of God is within us, we're going to be enthusiastic. But again, you look at the world in which we live today, that's becoming more pagan. We're not Enthios. So there is no enthusiasm. There's just a lot of polarization, bitterness and resentment and all that other kind of ugly stuff. But if we're going to rediscover enthusiasm, then God has to be a part of that. And I think that's really an apostolic era again.

It's inserting God back into our lives so that the human person can discover once again the joy that God wants us to have. That's how much he loves us. All those beautiful quotes that you just gave from Scripture. God loves the human person. And remember, God chose to unite his nature with humanity and not with angels. That should tell you the depth of love that God has for the human person. You know, how the devil tries to get us on his side and to convince us we're unlovable kind of reminds me of if somebody were to kidnap a child and to abuse that child, but then he would lie to that child about how your actual parents hate you. They think you're despicable. They wouldn't love you.

Look at all that you've done. Look at all you've agreed to do. And so it's like when we're in the power of the enemy, we're just listening to these lies and we feel like, well, there's no escape. There's no escape to this God who's just gonna throw the book at me as you put it. So I may as well settle for whatever power I can have and whatever identity I can have through my relationship with evil and through sin. And so that's the good news is about your parent loves you, has always loved you, and you just have to turn back to him. Again, you know, you think of love,

again, when you really love somebody, you want the absolute best for them. But even if they fall short, you're still gonna love them. You know, I always ask some parents, you know, which of your kids play little league baseball? Now, when he or she is up at the plate to bat, what do you say to them? Come on. You suck, you're gonna fail. You know, you say get a hit, but when they strike out, you don't boo them back

to the bench. You're a loser. No, shake it off. What kind of parent would that be? You shake it off, you're gonna do better than next time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the role of the church, you know. Yeah. I think of St. John the 23rd, you know, his document, Matri et Magistra, the church is mother and teacher. It's interesting that mother comes first because any mother will love her children unconditionally, but it's still gonna give them the truth,

not let them do whatever they want, you know, don't touch that hot stove. Well, what do you mean? I have a right to do that. Again, so a lot of people today, again, going back to the events at the opening of the Paris Olympics, there's people that think they can do whatever they want. And the church needs to respond, not in a sense of condemning, but in a sense of love. Do you understand what you're doing and the consequences of that? I

Think sometimes people do things for shock value. Yeah, and again, you know Tell me more about where you find yourself because people that do these types of things. I don't see them Filled with joy and happiness There's a sense of misery and pain and suffering as well And it's almost like they want everybody to join them in that, where the Christian has to be able to say, I'm enthusiastic, I want you to join me in that. This reminds me of a quote I heard, before a sin, God says, remember my justice. And the devil says, remember God's mercy. And then after a sin,