Pints With Aquinas - The New Pentecost, The Spiritual Life, and Growth in Prayer w/ Fr. Ken Barker, MGL

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Support on Locals: https://mattfradd.locals.com/support   Missionaries of God's Love website: https://www.mglpriestsandbrothers.org

Father Ken Barker, how you doing? This is it. This is it. It's live. I'm doing fine. Thanks, Matt. I don't know if my accent is going to become stronger. As we talk, you might come back to us. What do you think? Will I come back to Australia in your speech? What do you think? Do you think I've lost my accent?

No, it's still there. You I can tell you are an Aussie. Yeah. See, that's not, but you've added a bit of the American accent. I think too. Now when I was in the States for four years, unfortunately I picked up the American accent so much that when I got home, my family wanted to disown me. My mom's a bit like that. She keeps saying, you sound like a bloody yank. Not's not realizing there's this distinction in America between the yanks and the rest of the country. Sure. It's so lovely to have you on. It's great to be here. I've got really is great. Um, great memories of, of, of you and your religious order and different things

we did in Australia. He's going to be walking around touching things by the way. Doesn't don't have to be worried. Yeah. And I've got to stop swiveling. Yeah. Yeah. We should get like a little electric shock button. That's right. For those who are just tuning in and not sure who you are, who are you?

Who am I? Who are you? Well, I'm Father Ken Parker and I'm a priest. I started off as a dust and priest in 1974, I was ordained. And even in journeying towards priesthood, that in itself was quite miraculous in my life because at the age of 19, I experienced a call. And at that stage, I didn't really know the Lord

very personally to tell you the truth. I was still a practicing Catholic. I just read a book which was a book on a priest in China. At the end of the reading of the book I thought, I'm meant to be a priest. It just came like that. So that's the first part of my identity. I just sort of knew I was meant to be a priest from the very beginning. And I didn't know how to do it. So I remember the priest who was at my hometown,

well, back in Canberra, rather. And so I made my way to Canberra. And this is the next day, I said to him, look, I've got to be a priest. He said, why don't you finish your university degree? Because I had another, I think it was another year to go in a science degree. So no, if I don't go now, I think it was another year to go in a science degree. So no, if I don't go now, I'll never go.

So I ended up sort of before the bishop the same day. And the bishop said, why do you want to be a priest? I hadn't thought about why. I just knew I had to be a priest. So it was a grace upon me that I wasn't even aware of in a way. And I sort of blurted out, I want to serve God and serve my fellow man. And

he said, that's good enough for me. How soon can you get to the seminary? And I was in the seminary within a week. So what were you doing beforehand when you experienced this call on your life? Job wise? I was studying for a bachelor of science, Sydney university. and I was going to be a teacher. I had no other aspirations really. So that was the first thing that happened. I got just that sort of initial calling that gave me an assurance. And that was the time just after the council when there was a great amount of turmoil in the churches.

We were making the changes necessary, And the seminary was changing drastically. We started off with 38 guys and only six of us ended up going through. But I never doubted. I never doubted that that was what God wanted of me. So I'm so grateful for that grace, a huge grace that he gave me. And I only got to know Jesus in the seminary.

I didn't know him beforehand really, even though I was a practicing Catholic. But I'd go before the Blessed Sacrament and just really experience his presence where I'd be sort of like praying through the stations of the cross and I'd start weeping. So the Lord was starting to touch my heart. And after communion, especially,

I'd sort of feel really the warmth of the Lord's love and his presence and everything. It was just so beautiful. So yeah, that was the first step then was just I'm a priest, you know, so I'm so grateful for that. But then after being a priest for a couple of years, I was kind of a bit disillusioned, not sort of to the extent of wanting to throw in the priesthood, but thinking, is this all it is? You know, is that all it is? And so it just so happened that the bishop asked me to go overseas and come to the United States.

When you say, is this all it is, what were you encountering that you thought this isn't enough? Well, well, I didn't quite know how to communicate the Lord. I don't think I was sufficiently in love with the Lord to be able to talk about him as my love. And so I was sort of like frustrated. I was in competition with another priest who was much better at preaching and much better at sort of communicating with people

and everything like that. And I felt sort of inadequate in that regard. And so I was very diligent. I'd be around, I visited every house in the town, I think. But then people would come out afterwards and they'd say, oh, a lovely sermon, Father. I think, what's that mean, lovely sermon? So I was feeling inadequate in being able to communicate.

I sort of knew that I was meant to be a proclamer of the word of God. That I was meant to communicate the love of Jesus to people. But I really didn't know how to. I didn't know sufficient, the spirit wasn't moving sufficiently in my life, that was the point. So anyway, after having done study for four years here in Washington, D.C., coming back for a Ph.D., I thought, well, now I've got it. But you know, I didn't.

All that education was good, but I really needed a missing element, and that really was what we now call the release of the Holy Spirit. I needed more of the Spirit in my life. Obviously I'd been baptized and confirmed. I'd sort of had the ordination and all of those are sort of sacraments of the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit was within me, of course, and it wasn't as if I was a bad man,

but I just felt lacking in power, lacking in freedom, lacking in love that comes from the Lord himself, to be able to communicate the love of God to others. So anyway, coming back to Canberra after all that study, the bishop just didn't know what to do with me. So I got in with young people. And these young people, some of them had been experienced a baptism in the Holy Spirit.

And so that's like that new outpouring of the Spirit that's been in, especially moving the Catholic Church since 1967, but has been very much renewing the life of the church, I think. And so I fell in with these young people and they said, you should go to a priest charismatic retreat. I thought, well, that'll be safe. Priests are safe, you know? So there was a hundred priests at this retreat.

And Father Tom Forrest, who was a redemptorist priest from the United States, but at that stage he was working in Rome, and he was preaching it. And he had this pitch. It was a really simple pitch, Matt. He just thought he had, he said, you've got to be able to say three words. And I'm thinking, what are these three words? I was really hungry. I knew I needed something more, you know.

I can not. And I knew it when he said it, I knew it. That was the truth that I had to admit with all my education and everything, that I couldn't do it. I couldn't be the priest I was meant to be. I sort of could acknowledge that. I'd been 12 years a priest, I acknowledged that

things weren't working right, you know? And in my own personal life, I couldn't do it. It was disorder in my own personal life that I wasn't overcoming, you know? Stuff that was sort of coming back on me again and again. And I knew I needed, I needed more. And so he says, you've got to be able to say, I can't do it.

And so I was at that stage where, yeah, I could say, I can't do it. You know, I remember one time when we're, I was in my appointment at a country town in New South Wales, and I had to sort of, um, you know, get the music going and get the liturgy going after all, you know, it was a time after the second Vatican council was sort of reviving and everything like that. So we got a big organ and everything. I've got the organist going, I'm standing there saying, now let's sing.

They wouldn't sing. You know, a lot of Australians, They wouldn't sing. You know, a lot of Australians, they wouldn't say, and well, they were just stolen. And, uh, uh, you know, in the seminary, we were told there were God's chosen people, but these were God's frozen people. So that's the thing. It was, I was finding there's something needed to happen. That, uh, you know, and I'd sort of work. I was finding there was something needed to happen. And I'd sort of work with young people, but then it was just like a social gathering, and they'd all pair off and everything, and well, what happened there?

So I didn't have the answers that I needed, even though I was hardly educated. And so I was able to say, I can't do it. He said, you've got to be able to say one extra word, yes, yes, Lord, you can do it. Right. And I was able to say this and join your yes with that of the blessed Virgin Mary. You know, when she was faced with the impossible, when the angel came to her and said, you know, um, you have to be the mother of the Messiah. And she's saying, I don't have any relations with men. How can that happen? She's faced with the impossible and she says, how will it happen?

And she's told by the angel, the Holy spirit will come upon you and he'll overwhelm you. That's how it's going to happen. He'll overshadow you with his power. And of course, that's what did happen with the conception of Jesus in her womb. And so that was it. I just said, okay, I'll say yes to the Lord. I'll surrender to this like big. I'll surrender to this big grace

because I knew about this big grace, you see. I knew about this experience of the baptism of the Spirit. I'd already been in touch with that from even when I was going through the seminary. I'd heard about it and I'd been in touch with it when I was at Sydney University too. And yet I was like a fellow traveler. I thought, yeah, that's good stuff for other people.

I don't know whether it's for me though. But now I was wanting to say, yes, okay, I want this big grace. It's available. And I expect that when they prayed over me, I thought maybe I'll explode or something, but I didn't explode. But I just had a deep, deep peace in my spirit.

You know, a deep peace. And I knew things would be different from now on. And they were mad. Everything changed. Everything changed. My personal life. I'm thinking, I'm thinking, it's kind of like the opposite of the,

the, those kind of, what are those fellows, motivational speakers, you know, like, you can do it. That's the opposite. I can't do it. And that must be so liberating. It is. Because you've been striving to be this good preacher. Exactly.

It leads you into a surrender to God and giving it to the Lord, letting Him work through you. And that's what began to happen. So, yeah, so I cut you off. No, you're right. I'm glad you said something because I'm talking to you. And that's what began to happen. So yeah. So I cut you off. What? No, you're right. No, I'm glad you said something because I'm talking to, that's wonderful. So what happened in your life then? Well, personal life, you know, I had that sort of thing, which there was a thing that would go on inside of my head, which was like a, a, a sort of a,

a lustful type of image would come into my head that I could not get out of my head. It was persistent. If you've had anything like that, you don't have to confess, but. No, of course. Yeah. But yeah, it was really strong, but it was consistent, persistent.

And I was really frustrated with it, like blazes. But now with the new working of the Spirit, I was able to look to the cross of Jesus, and I knew what Jesus had done. And I was able to apply the power of the cross of Jesus and actually like image to cross into my mind, and it would break that image, you know? And I just held that cross there,

and after a while it was just gone. It's never returned, you know? Praise the Lord. Yeah, it's just, so it's relying on the power of the Lord, not on my own sort of thinking capacity or whatever. Yeah. But ministry too, ministry changed. Did you know Father Bob Bedard?

I did, yeah. I love that fella. Yeah. Founder of the Companions of the Cross up in Canada. I only met him once though. So when he had this experience or something similar to what you had, I think at the time, if my memory serves, he didn't experience anything sensible. But he said he woke up the next day and he had this insatiable appetite for Holy Scripture.

He didn't make the connection between what had just happened and this appetite. But he picked up the Bible and he sat down. Several hours he went by and he couldn't stop reading. No, it's good you mentioned that because that's what happened to me too. The Scriptures came alive in a whole new way. I mean, I'd studied the Scriptures, surely, but now it was different, you know? And I wanted to get scripture studies, and like, but it was not just sort of the academic study.

It was like the words were lifting off the page, and I got really hungry for the word of God more and more. And the Spirit does that. See, when the Spirit starts working our lives, he just renews things in a new more. And the spirit does that. See, when the spirit starts working our lives, he just renews things in a new way. And he brings the light of the truth into your heart too.

Like truth, which I knew I was now more deeply convicted by. You know, it's the spirit's gonna bring that conviction. Yeah. The ministry, ministry exploded. Like the youth ministry that I'd been involved in. Um, as I said, there were some of them who'd been baptized in the spirit, but most of them hadn't. Uh, but then all of a sudden I was out of town. When it happened, the spirit just fell on the whole ministry.

When you are out of town. Speaking of you can't do it. You go out and I'll do something. Exactly. The spirit just fell on those young people and it was really bad, more difficult because I had to try and explain to the press what was happening. Yeah. I didn't quite know myself. But when I came back from World Youth Day in the year 2000, I said this to you as a joke, but kind of insufferably happy. Yeah, just I said this to you as a joke, but kind of insufferably happy. Yeah, exactly. My mom met with Bishop Eugene Hurley somewhat frequently because she thought I'd been brainwashed

because she had no idea how to comprehend why I was so happy and just pray all the time and I want to hug my parents and tell them I love them. It scared them. That's right. That's what the parents of these kids were like too. They were coming to me saying, what have you done? What have you done? I said, I've done nothing. I was out of town. I want to get more into that, but before we do,

how would you explain this to a Catholic who's quite skeptical or of this language? And I think not without, not without reason, you know, Oh yeah, sure. You know, there's different movements in the church and they can be good, but they can also attract to themselves a sort of baggage. And so when you use this language, they immediately say, associate it with something Protestant or kind of crazy emotionalism. How do you explain this to someone in a way that they can hear what you're saying when you talk about this baptism in the Holy Spirit?

No, that's good. By baptism, of course, it's just an immersion that's soaking in the Spirit, right? But what we understand it to be, it's closely connected to our sacramental baptism and sacramental confirmation, you see. closely connected to our sacramental baptism and sacramental confirmation. And that's basically a releasing of the power of those sacraments. And for me also, the sacrament of orders, the sacraments come alive in a new way. You see, we know from sacramental theology that sacraments are effective. Their efficacy is given by God, if they're performed correctly, then they're efficacious.

But their fruitfulness will depend upon the degree to which we are open and surrendered to the grace of the sacrament. And so what was happening to me there is that I was opening and surrendering to the grace of the sacrament of, well, not only baptism and confirmation orders as well, because it sort of renewed my priesthood, you know,

and renewed me as a baptized Catholic. So it's like that, it's a releasing of the power of the sacrament, and it's a renewal, a sacramental renewal. See, as adults, we need to be able to do that, and all of the movements in the sacrament, it's a sacramental renewal. As adults, we need to be able to do that. And all of the movements in the church are like that, aren't they? They're basically calling us to making a deeper commitment

and surrender to the Lord, so that all that was given to us in baptism and confirmation is released in power more fully. And that's a constant thing that has to happen, Matt. It's not just sort of a once up thing, but there are watershed moments, I think. That's how I'd like to explain. Is that the sort of thing you're looking for? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's nothing to be afraid of at all, or it's not weird. It's fundamental, I think. I think this grace, as it were, is meant for everybody because it's the Holy Spirit as the soul of the church. And without the Holy Spirit, we're finished, you know? But thankfully we're not going to be finished because the Holy Spirit has guaranteed to

be with the church until the end of time. Praise God. I think it was Chesterton who said, let your faith be... Wow, this isn't his exact words, but I usually say like less, less of a syllogism, more of a love affair. And that is my fear sometimes that in a world gone mad, we come up with these arguments for God's existence, the divinity of Christ, all of which are helpful and good. And we kind of want them to argue that upon those around us and hope that they just mentally submit to this logic.

And if everyone would just do that and they would get our morality in order, and that's a part of it. But Jesus Christ is alive and the Holy Spirit is moving and he's at work in our lives and he knows you personally. That's scary in a way, that's scarier. It's much closer, it's much more intimate. But that's what happens of course, and for me that was the big thing, the deeper intimacy with Jesus, knowing Him as my Lord.

So you can read Philippians for example where I believe that nothing can outweigh the supreme advantage of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For Him I'm accepted to the loss of everything and I count everything else as so much rubbish if only I can have Christ and a place in him. All I want is to know Jesus Christ and the power of his resurrection and to reproduce the pattern of his death in my life. That said, all I want is Jesus. The Holy Spirit does that. He glorifies Jesus within us. And more than that too, he opens us to the living Father. And this is fundamental to who we are as Catholics, really. It's fundamental, but oftentimes it's missed.

Unfortunately, people can't abuse, can miss this reality. And so opening up to the Father too, you know, where Paul says, you know, everyone moved by the Spirit is a son or a daughter of the father, you know, son or daughter of God. And the spirit that's given to us, it's not a spirit that leads us into slavery, but a spirit of freedom enabling us to call God,

Abba, father, you know, Abba, experiencing the father. So that was a whole journey for me tooba, and experiencing the father. So that was a whole journey for me too, opening up to the father. The spirit does that, you know? So then at what point did you start a religious order? How did that happen? Yes, I forgot about that.

By the way, we have a link to your, the Missionaries of God's Love in the description for those who are watching who want to learn more about this religious order you founded. Thank you so much for that, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well that happened after, of course, the baptism of the spirit.

What the next step actually was where I was here in the United States again, and so many things happened in the United States, and I was here in the United States again, and so many things happened in the United States. And I was visiting a covenant community, which is like a community of charismatic Catholics who have sort of committed themselves to live this life together and be like a microcosm of the church, within the life of the church, of course, but living the Catholic life more intensely, which I think is a great thing to do, and laypeople.

And so I was in one of these communities and I heard Father Francis Martin, do you remember him? Maybe it goes back a bit. The name is familiar. He was a scripture scholar from the Mother of God community in Washington. But he was a scholar from the Akol Biblique in Jerusalem. He got this experience of the Holy Spirit.

And so he went up to Katharine de Hoogt, the Oatey's community in Camomile. I've been there. You've been there? Yeah. So he spent a year in the Pustinia. That's how I'm knowing his name, yeah. He was sharing about this.

And during that year, he said he felt he was called by God to place his life under the grace of this renewal. So when he shared that, I thought, oh, that's what I'm meant to do, place my life under this grace, right? And so, uh, I went back to Australia and joined a community that was starting a lay community in Canberra.

Disciples of Jesus. Yeah. We now call it the subs of Jesus. In those days it was called Hepsi bar. What'd you believe? That's such a seventies charismatic name to come up with. What does that mean? It means God's delight. You know, and I saw 62 where it says, you know is that? It means God's delight. You know, and I saw 62 red session. I'll call you the weathered my delight. Right. But, um, we changed the name to the substitute. Sounds like we realized too, that there was actually a witch called Hepsi bar,

which wasn't probably the best thing, but, um, where was I? So you came and joined this community in Melbourne? Yeah, it came from Canberra. Yep, I did. So I presented myself to them. I said, but you're a priest, you can't join us. So I just let me hang around, you know. So I hung around and I ended up becoming, of course, one of the leaders of the community. Together with these lay men who are strong men of God, a beautiful experience really. And I came into the community partly because of my own need

for fellowship, for brotherhood. And for sisters as well, but it was more the brotherhood thing that drew me in. But it was also under that sense of calling that I was to place my life under the grace of the renewal. And then after three years of this, and we had a lot of young people come and join us, because I was leading up this large youth group,

as I said, you know, for 100 young people, jumping out of their skin and their spirits. And I felt they needed a place where they could just really be committed, you know, and live a committed life rather than just, you know how youth groups, they sort of have a time and then they just disappear. And most of the young people get lost or something.

They needed a context where they could be challenged and call forward and deeply committed in their journey for, you know, lasting fruit, you fruit, not just have good fruit, but lasting fruit. So anyway, where was I? I was with the disciples of Jesus in Canberra. Exactly. And I want to know how you went from that to founding a religious order.

That's it. Okay, you got me. So basically what happened is that three of these young guys, you know, they independently came to me and each one said, I want to become a priest, but I want to stand with this grace. How can we do it? I said, I don't know.

So I said, let's meet. And so we met in a pizza shop and we talked about it. And then I said, what we'll should do is we'll have a year of praying about this. So we spent a whole year praying. Well, we meet on Wednesdays and we pray for Wednesday afternoon and then of course other times we'd be sort of holding it up to God and just listening, what did God want? And we just heard, it was before the

Blessed Sacrament. That's how we started, of course, always good things start before the Blessed Sacrament. And we just asked the Lord to speak to us. And he spoke prophetically. It was just beautiful. Like, you know, he'd tell us that he wanted us to be brothers together and serve one another. So we'd go and get towel and water and we'd wash one another's feet. That sort of thing. And, you know, he wanted us to consecrate ourselves to his wounded heart, broken open in love for the world. And so we took down the cross and we kissed the cross, you know, he's broken.

And that sort of thing. So we, you know, we were to sort of entrust ourselves to the place of Virgin Mary, you know? That sort of thing. So we got this whole thing and we realized by the end of that year that God was doing something, that he wanted us to form something. We didn't know what, I thought it was probably

an alternative form of dust and priesthood. Because I was a something that he wanted us to form something. We didn't know what, I thought it was probably an alternative form of dust and priesthood. Because I was a dust and priest, I didn't even know what religious did. I had no idea about religious very much at all. I knew they existed, of course. But so anyway, that's, but what the Lord was doing, he was speaking very much about living a life of radical poverty. That came very strongly.

And I kept on, wherever I turned, I was hearing this rich young man story. I was still a young priest in those days, but's a rich young priest. And I'd hear those words of Jesus, you know, when the rich young man came up and said, what must I do? Jesus said, well, keep the commandments. He said, I've always kept the commandments. He said, there's one thing more, as he looked steadily at him and loved him, you see. That's important.

He looked steadily at him and loved him. I felt the Lord was looking steady at me and loving me Saying is one thing more that you have to do. There's one thing that you lack Go sell all your possessions. Give the money to the poor and you'll have treasure in heaven then come follow me And I really felt that was the Lord speak to me, you know Now I know that that text doesn't speak that way to everyone the same way, but for me, I felt I had to do it literally. And also at the same time, I was reading the Life of Francis of Assisi. Dangerous combination. Dangerous. And so that's what happened.

What did that look like selling everything? I mean, how much did you actually have as a diocesan priest? I didn't have a lot. I think it must have been about 15,000 or something like that. That's not insignificant. No, no, in those days. So it wasn't very well back.

And I carried a cart, of course, and that sort of thing. So I just had to give it all away. Wow. So I went to the guy who was my advisor at the time. I said, what do you think? You know, am I mad? And he said, well, you're very open to God. You better do it quickly before you change your mind. Kind of like how you became a priest. I got to do it now or else it won't happen.

It was like that. But the funny thing about this that I did give it all away. I wrote up the check and everything, but I forgot that I had some debts. So that was funny. So you gave it all away and then you realised you owed money and then the Lord had to provide, I guess. Well, the Francis of Assisi thing was very important too, because, um,

you know, the question there was like, is it possible today to live the gospel radically as a priest? That was my question. And I felt, well, I'm called to do that. I really felt all the way that what's most important in the church today is that there are people who are living the gospel radically

before preaching. That actually you seek to sort of live it, right? So I didn't realize I was moving towards consecrated life as such, as like the form of consecrated life. I just knew that God was calling me to the gospel radically. And another question in my mind too, was from Paul VI when he wrote the Evangelical Inuziandi back in 1975. He asked the question, how is it possible today

to proclaim the gospel in such a way that it will convert our contemporaries? How is it going to be possible to do that? And from that question, I became more and more convinced that people need to live the gospel. And so in the lay community I was in, we were seeking to live a strong gospel way of life, and that would attract and draw people and be a context.

And then I felt for myself as a priest that I was called to go that step further, you know, in sort of living a radical poverty and trusting the Lord for everything, right? In that sort of way. And the young guys came with me on that, you know? And so we just trusted the Lord and went into the little house in the suburbs, waiting upon the Lord's provision and he's never let us down. So what does that look like on a day to day basis living this sort of poverty? Because often I would imagine it begins with a eruption of enthusiasm, but then you say, well, come on here, we've got to be practical cars here so that we can drive to people's houses.

Exactly. That's right. So how did that, and yet at the same time, I imagine that spirit wants to push back against that practical attitude where you try to provide for the future instead of just relying on the Lord today. Yeah. How did you find that balance? Well, that's a really good question. And that's always been part of the journey, I think. Now I can tell you the truth right at this moment, the missionaries of God's love

don't have enough finance to get to the end of the year. Is that good or not? You about to ask for money or is that what you want? Well, I think we's we really are. We do live on the edge, right? You're not wrong. But you've been, you've been a religious order now for how long? Since you've begun to now, how many years is that? But then that's, well, I'm, the comment I just made there is just about our central

fund. Yeah. But the, we have like six missions and all those missions are self-sustaining. Okay. So it's not as if the whole thing's. Okay. But there is a sort of a way in which we do live on edge in that regard.

But at the same time, obviously we make a distinction too between the way we live and the mission that we engage in. So the mission that we engage in will really seek to have as much finance as we need to really give glory to the God and to bring as many people to the Lord, right? So we need safer equipment like you've got here. We'd want to have the same equipment. Yeah, thank you very much.

But in your personal houses, yeah, we try to keep it simple. Yeah. Like what, is there any specific guidelines that you set up for these different houses? I know for the fries of the renewal, for example, they'll and keep it simple. Yeah. Like what, is there any specific guidelines that you set up for these different houses? I know for the fries of the renewal, for example, they'll sleep on the floor. They only wear the habit. No, we do have beds. Yeah.

But, um, but we, we try to keep the food very simple and our way of life simple. So we're not still like always out to doing, not always out doing swank things, et cetera. And we do rely upon food coming in at times. Like say, the house I live in, we're actually always going to the markets and getting the stuff at the end of the day, that sort of thing, keeping it really simple.

So simple life is really important. I like to call it like a joyful simplicity. Okay. You know, and it depends on the context too, because we're in countries that are very poor, like for example, Indonesia and the Philippines, and their context is different from in Australia as well. Because Australia is sort of like obviously very affluent.

But yeah, it's trying to keep it simple. Like we don't own anything, nobody possess anything, keeping clothing simple, entertainment simple, you know, what's in the house is simple.. Just trying to keep it really sort of like, we make the things between what we call, um, uh, felt needs and real needs. Um, so I don't only live with real needs rather than felt needs. And if you as a religious order are engaging with people in the Philippines and Indonesia, I'm sure that is a constant reminder to you of, it is actually Matt, yeah.

It's been very helpful for us actually, because our primary motive for living poverty is actually the love of the Lord, you know, like the man who found a treasure in the field and he sold up everything so he could just have that field, right? It's a joyful decision to let go of everything. It's like those first Franciscans when they just sort of took the money from

and just threw it out into the marketplace. And the really joyful people were not the people who were picking up the money, but the ones that were actually giving away. Now, because you were reading about Francis of Assisi and you had this desire to live a life of poverty, did you ever consider joining a Franciscan group that was part of the renewal, like the CFRs? Never did, no, no, but very much inspired by Francis,

though, at the same time. But we have other ones, like example Ignatius too, we would look to him as well for a lot of our way of doing things. So it's not just Francis, but in the initial stage, Francis was very prominent really and inspiring us. But I never felt called to be a Francisco who was who was the priest who there was a priest? Of your order who was the vocations director at the time. This is back in 2001 or two. Yeah, what's his name? Chris Ryan Chris father Chris Chris Ryan that was him and I think I called him and we were talking and you know

I was very idealistic about poverty and things like this. It sounds great. He said, well, it's not that great when you're driving to a Christian's house and you run out of gas and that's it. That's very funny. So how many priests and brothers are in your rules disorder right now? We only have about 35 priests, I think it is. And we don't have any brothers at all because they've all wanted to become priests eventually. They start off thinking they want to be brother

but then they become priests. We've got six guys being ordained this year, which is really good. Yeah. And good number in formation. There's 20 in our seminary in Melbourne, and then in the formation of the house in Canberra, there's another eight, I think it is.

And then there's others in Aspirancy's in other houses as well. So we've got quite a lot of people looking at us and coming to sort of, cause all that gets worked out over time. Yeah Yeah, how do you rely on the Lord as you seek to grow an order and how much do you have to battle pride as? That order grows I can imagine someone Wanting success. I want more men. I want more brothers. I want the bishops and those around Australia

to look at us and say, they're doing it right and look at them. They're exploding. I'm sure that's something you have to wrestle with, just like a bishop does with his own diocese. And yet you're trying just to be faithful to the Lord and take what comes. How do you see it? Yeah, no, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Um,, I've just been doing a retreat here at the Franciscans and the Lord's been speaking to me about humility, you know, because the deepest root is pride, really,

in all of our hearts, really, one way or another. You think you've got it chopped out and then it pops up again. It's like one of those weeds in the garden that you think you've got out and you find it over somewhere else. You cut it out there and you find it over somewhere else. So yeah, I feel that it's a call.

It's like, Francis was good here because he said you can only be before God what you are, no more, no less, you know? What you are before God. And how do I stand before God? You know, there's a weak, broken, wounded man who the Lord has chosen to use for his own purposes. It's like John the Baptist, you know,

when John the Baptist says- He must grow greater. Yeah. I must grow less. Yeah, and he also said- Oh, sorry, that's not what you were saying. No, you're right, I'm coming to that. Yeah.

Okay. Good on you. No, that's really the outcome of it, but it's like, once they were saying to John the Baptist, just before that, what you just quoted, they were sort of saying, you know, there's the Messiah, Jesus, and he's baptizing now, and so how do you feel about that?

And John said, a man can only claim what is given to him from God, no more, no less. And that's it. You have to know what's given you from God and rejoice in that, but not to seek to claim anymore. Right? Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. That's makes sense. So he must increase, now must decrease. Yeah. Being the friend of the bridegroom, John uses that image, doesn't he? That the friend of the bridegroom had the job of waiting for the bridegroom to come

and then to connect the bridegroom to the bride. It's like that. And then the friend of the bridegroom just disappears. And so, as soon as the friend of the bridegroom, Jesus, seeking to connect him to as many people as possible, then I must disappear. There's something beautiful about that, because there's many people left connected to the Lord.

And now pop up later on and they say, wow, do you remember that time when you, I don't remember anything, but it's just beautiful, isn't it, that the Lord uses you in that way. So I can't claim anything, you know. But it's just beautiful, isn't it, that the Lord uses you in that way. Yeah. So I can't claim anything, because it's the Lord. Thank you, Lord.

It's the Lord, you know. But in my heart, as you say, my heart is not pure in that regard. I can sometimes, thoughts can arise that are prideful thoughts, and so you have to put them against the cross of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

How do you, um, and this is a question I want you to answer for the sake of everyone listening who's struggling with the same thing. How do we, um, trust that the Lord is at work in our life when we keep running up against our own wretchedness, you know? So we have this, we've got to vacillate between I'm pretty bloody good to like, I am a heap of dung. Um, you know, like I, I, I encountered that. I was at an airport the other day, Boston.

And if this fella's watching, I think he's a Steven, he came up to me and he went, do you run a podcast? I said, no. Yeah. And, and, and, and I gave him a miraculous medal that I got from France, and we had a lovely chat, and he was talking about how he was beginning to come back to his faith, and how clients is working.

And I'm, at one moment, grateful to God, also so aware of my own impotency, and the stupid things I say, or things I could say better. You see what I mean? Yeah, yeah, no, it's beautiful. And I once heard a priest, I've repeated this a million times on the show, say, Lord, use even my bullshit as manure for their growth. I think there's something terribly profound in that.

Yeah, there is. You just give everything to the Lord. Exactly. Yeah. I'm glad you raised all this because it's so important. I've been telling you the story, you know, it sounds like a story of glory or something, but it's not really. It's a story of a broken, sinful man who the Lord has taken hold of.

And you see, there's nothing to be ashamed about in that, I don't think. And the Lord doesn't want to shame us or feel disgraced or lonely. Like, the only people he's got to work with is broken people. And a lot of the journey is actually realizing our brokenness and our weakness.

And we've got nothing to bring, you know? And the slum condition of our own state of the soul, you know? That's a good place to be because then, you know, it's all the saving power of Jesus. That's all his work. It's all his grace upon us, isn't it really? So I trust that I'll always be like the guy

at the back of the temple, not the guy up the front who's sort of pounding his chest and saying, I'm doing well, and presenting himself to God as if he's got it all together. And which is just a fallacy, he's kidding himself. But the guy at the back of the temple in Jesus' parable is crying out, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. Now he's the one who goes home and write with God.

So I just hope I'm in that place. And even coming to prayer, you can feel that, what you're just expressing there, that there's something of the pride that can rise in your heart. But really coming in reality before the Lord, not some sort of pretense. And so like that's the key, isn't it?

I'm not gonna try and pretend that I'm more than what I am, but I'm just as I am as the Lord has called me and chosen me, and whatever has come forward is by His grace. What comes to mind is, it was Trésilier. Yeah, Trésilier, she said, one proud thought, one proud thought about virtue gained It means you're on the bridge of the abyss So it's you know, because I was just at lazie a week ago.

Oh, are you really? Yeah. I praise the land. You know, it was beautiful. My wife and I got to go and see her childhood home. And then you look up the road to this gigantic Basilica. And I built it's beautiful. And you've got that crypt where the Sally and is it Louise or Louise?

Louise. Yeah. Um, I buried and is it Louise or Louis? Louise. Yeah. Um, I buried and you think they could have never guessed an amazing family. Yeah. And what a quiet life. What a quiet little life. Um, the book, I believe in love has blessed me tremendously. It's a retreat based on the teachings of Teresa of Lisio.

And there's a line in there. I keep repeating cause it's just terrific. Yes. Because I think often when priests and others talk about the love of God and he loves you, we can sometimes think they're saying, you're not that bad, you know, and sometimes they do say that. Well, what he says in this book is I'm not telling you, you believe too much in your own wretchedness.

We are far more wretched than we could possibly imagine. What I'm telling you is you do not believe enough in the merciful love of Jesus. Exactly. Like that's the abyss that captures our miserable heart. That's been my own journey has been, I think, that of mercy. You know, what's spoken to me a lot is Peter's journey. You know, I'll go to prison with a lot is Peter's journey, you know, you know, I'll go to prison with you.

I'll die with you Lord. And then, and the Lord looks at Peter and says, Oh, Peter will have got crucial have decided me three times. And Peter's thinking you're kidding. No way. You know, he's got that bravado. He's got a push through such a level guy. And what he should have said is what that priest said

to you on that retreat, I cannot. Exactly, exactly, yeah. Yeah, so there he is, and of course he, but then he has that moment when Jesus looks at him and looks, gospel Jesus, his eyes catch the eyes of Peter and Peter sees the eyes of Jesus. He's just, you know, denied the Lord three times. Just imagine that gaze of Jesus. I think it was a gaze of mercy.

You know, it certainly wouldn't be the gaze of a wounded heart because it was his best friend, you know, but, and Jesus is very human, but it was a case of mercy. And that's why enable Peter not to sort of do what Judas did. You know, just went out and hung yourself because he gave into the despair. Peter could have done that too, because his sin was no less than Judas'

but Peter, he had seen those eyes of mercy. And that's the truth of my life too. I've seen the eyes of mercy of the Lord and I can tell you that it's his mercy. It's his mercy that has saved me. And only by his mercy, anything's happened that's been enriching in my life, you know. And so much has been enriching.

It's all his gift, you know. It's all grace, isn't it? Really? Yeah, we live by that, really. By the grace of God. Yeah. That's what, you know, it says, doesn't it? By grace we've been saved,

not by anything of our own efforts, you know? So that we could boast. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're kind of thrown into this world as it were, and we all try to get along being community with people, hope that we're lovable sense that we may not be cover up for our deficiencies. We live among all people who do this. And without the Lord, what do we have?

Well, we need to be attractive so they'll like us. So they won't leave us. Yeah. Cause our deepest fear is to be left alone. Sure. And then there's all these ideologies on offer in the world that we can attach ourselves to because we feel like ontologically, as least as it happens, as it pertains to our purpose and meaning, it's just vacant. Yeah. So we have to now fill ourselves up so that we can

be someone that's unacceptable. How is Christianity and the love of Jesus and walking with Jesus, the antidote to that, you know, preach to us, Father. Well, of course, it's Jesus, you know, that intimacy with the Lord is really what matters. And so what would you say when you were just expressing there, what would you say was the deepest cry in the heart of someone who's actually of that mindset? I think it's I want to be seen for what I actually am. Exactly.

And I want that to be enough somehow. That's exactly it. So I see it's the grace, it's the love of God. You see the deepest cry in the human heart is what the cry you're making there is a cry for love. To know that I'm loved infinitely, I'm loved unconditionally, I'm worthwhile, I'm acceptable in myself. I don't have to prove myself before anybody. I don't have to make myself look good before others. My value and my worth is not dependent upon what others think of me,

or how I'm assessed or evaluated by others at all. Or it's not dependent on my achievements. The great grace I received at one moment, you know on a retreat And I was struggling with all this stuff as the Lord spoke to my heart And he said I've always found you acceptable You are acceptable in my eyes. I've always found you acceptable Now what he wasn't saying I found your behavior acceptable sometimes, but you're acceptable.

When Jesus met the woman who had been caught in the act of adultery, she's thrown before him and they're accusing her and all that sort of thing. Now Jesus speaks to her, you know, and first of all he sort of says, well look, let the one who's without sin cast the first stone and the guys disappear. And then he's with her and he says, is there anyone here to condemn you? And she said, no answer.

And he said, neither do I condemn you. Go sin no more. So he ministered acceptance to her. And because she knew she was accepted, that gave her the power to go sin no more. Right? Otherwise, if it was a word of condemnation, then it just throws her back into that cycle of sin.

It was a word of acceptance, she was accepted as a person, I don't condemn you. So there's no condemnation in the heart of Jesus. How does condemnation throw her back into the cycle of sin? What does that mean? Well, if she feels condemned, then her worth and her value is not. I see. Is not. And so she's gonna just go back into that stuff again.

Yeah. Right, did you get it? Yeah, if I'm worthless, I may as well act worthless. Exactly, yeah. It's who you are, you see. The Lord wants to affirm every human person who they really are in Him, created in goodness, you see.

He's made us that way in goodness, you see. He's made us that way for him, you know, and we won't find who we really are until we find him and come more deeply into the love that he has for us. It's his love. And that's why I'm a missionary of God's love, because I noticed with the young people that we were working with, that that was their deepest hunger. They came down to it, that's what they wanted to know.

They wanted to know that they were truly loved by God, even though they couldn't articulate that, of course. When they came to experience that love, everything starts to work. Now they can actually, they have the freedom to repent. You see, we say, we don't get repentance just by saying condemning people for their behavior. They're saying, that's wrong behavior, done it.

When young people come to our camps, we don't condemn them at all. We know they're all in disordered relationships. Everything's wrong in their lives, but we just preach the love of God. And they get won by the love overwhelmed by the love, you know touched and and and then of course they have a freedom to change Because they they're hungry then for for what's on offer, you know

No, I said it makes a lot of sense. Yeah Hmm. I love the story you tell in your book, Becoming Fire about is it Al Donza? Is that how I say the name? Yeah. Could you share that story with us? Well, yeah, I thought it was my best. I'm sure you've shared it a thousand times, but if I just have a drink of water. Yeah, it's a story that just isn't it's, it's an allegory for the human heart.

It's exactly what you're saying. Yeah, it was told by Piet Franzen when he, in his book on grace back in the 20th century. But it's a beautiful story really. It's a story from a man of the muncher really. Alonso was a woman in, you know, she was about 23 or something like that, in a tavern in Spain, and she served up drinks for the guys in the daytime. In the nighttime, she allowed her body to be used and ravaged by them for their lust. So she hated herself, and she had this sort of like a whole aspect was sort of very much like just beaten and unloved and uncared for

and just broken sort of person really just used by others. But into the town one day came a young man and he had a spring in his step and a smile in his dial and a light in his eyes and he beheld Odonzo. And he saw through the exterior hardness that she'd built up and saw her inner beauty. And he called her by a new name, Dulcinea, which means the beautiful one, in Spanish.

And she spattered him, she cursed him. She couldn't accept that, impossible. But then he kept coming back. And she just spurned him and just couldn't receive this. But gradually after much persistence and bringing flowers and all that sort of thing, she began to think maybe it is true. Maybe I am the beautiful one.

And people noticed that in Aultonsa, now there was a new spring in her step, a new light in her eyes, a new smile on the dial, because she was the beautiful one, being called by a new name. It relates to that text in Isaiah 43, I think it is, I've called you by a new name. It's a beautiful thing, I said do not be afraid Israel. You know, I've redeemed you,

I've called you by name, you are mine. Right? That sort of sums up in a way, you know, as a parable, it sums up how God comes, you know. He comes to witness by his love, he comes to win us by His love. He comes to overwhelm us by love. He draws the heart.

He persuades the heart. That's my understanding of grace. Grace is like that persuasive action of God, the Spirit within, tugging at our heartstrings and seeking to convince us that we're beautiful in his eyes. He's made us for himself and our hearts are restless until we rest in him. He's our purpose, he's our reason for living. And he wants to rejoice over us and renew us by his love. Right? Mm-hmm.

I'm thinking of the second chapter in Song of Songs. Something similar happens here. Beautiful. Where he stands behind the wall. Exactly. At the window. Beautiful. Through the lattice and he says beautiful things.

Yeah, exactly. And the bird has her head buried in the cleft of the rock as if to say, don't say those things to me. They can't possibly be true. That's right. And that's the shame thing. You see a lot of people are held back because of shame. You know, and I was like that too.

Yeah. Yeah. But that text that you just talked about, that was a shame where I think it's a beautiful text. Actually, do you mind if I just get it from you? I'd love you to read it. Yeah, because I think it's a beautiful text actually. Do you mind if I just get it from you? I'd love you to read it. Yeah. Yeah, cause I think it's very much what the Lord wants to say to many of us maybe.

And he said it to me cause there was a shame in my heart for things of the past. Yeah. Where I hadn't really sort of lived the life I was meant to live, you know? And all of us have got something of that. But then there's this, and these words, they're a bit sort of like, well, sweet as it were,

but, and for sometimes a man may not be able to sort of take them because they might be a bit too seemingly sentimental. But it really struck me, and I noticed that people like John of the Cross and others have experienced that too. So it's where the bridegroom is saying to the bride, come then my love, my lovely one, come, my dove, hiding in the clefts of the rock, in the covets of a cliff. Show me your face. Let me hear your voice. For your voice is sweet and your face is beautiful.

So come out of your shame. You don't have to hide anymore. You don't have to fear that you're going to be rejected or unloved or somehow are the discarded because of your failures. Keep reading though, because what we're getting to is elucidated here too. Catch the foxes for us, the little foxes that make habit of the vineyards. Yeah. For us. The little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards where our vineyards are in flower. My beloved is mine and I am his.

See that I know that we could interpret this in many ways, but one in one spiritual interpretation that I've thought of as I've read that is that these foxes that are spoiling the vineyard are these these evil thoughts that are spoiling the soul. And the souls could be that you've done too much wrong or that you're too imperfect or that you had your chance but you've screwed it up and this is what you're left with, so just sleep in the bed you've made. And he says lovely things to us. And I tell you, I felt like that little bird and I just want

to turn around and give Jesus the finger, which shocks people when you say that and they get very offended. But I don't know how you couldn't know what that means. How do you, someone who has caught a glimpse of your own depravity, stand before someone who looks at you without irony and says, you're beautiful? Exactly. Go to hell. Don't tell me that it's, it's, it's Peter in the boat. Get away from me. Lord. He doesn't go away. And he's not put off. He's not put off by the hardness.

Exactly. That's right. You know, there's two texts in the song. The songs like to put together, but it used to be a song we sang, my beloved is mine and I'm his like that that one, and his banner over me is love. I like that image, because one of it is a nuptial image, my beloved is mine and I'm his. That's what we see first of all, is that nuptial imagery, but then his banner over me is love.

What's that mean? His banner over me is love. Well, I think that it's a military image. You know where the battle used to be between two armies and the king's banner was there, right? And the conquering king would put his banner down on the new territory. So his banner over me is love. So the Lord's threatened to win and persuade my heart

and conquer me as it were, you know, overwhelm me by his love. So that I allow him to, you know, to in a way defeat me in the sense that conquer me, you know? So that he puts his banner down over me and he says, this is my territory. Pass me this beautiful book here.

Cause there's so much in here. No, that's beautiful. Yeah. So I belong to the Lord now I'm thinking too. Um, wait, where this one, I love this, uh, as an apple tree among the trees of the orchard, so is my beloved among young men in his long Longed for shade I am seated in this fruit is sweet to my taste so from this what I receive is

Sometimes the translation I read is an apple tree among the trees of the forest And so I've got this idea of these powerful, big or inspiring trees. Yes. And then an apple tree in comparison to that is not that impressive. That's the only thing that can feed you. Okay. So I've got this idea of wandering through the forest distracted by the glories of the world, longing for shade, longing for sustenance.

And so sitting before this thing that at first doesn't seem to be terribly terrific, but it's the only thing that'll save you. That's fantastic. Can we stay in the song of songs? One of my favourite ones, the song of songs eight, six, but the translation, But the translation in the Office of Virgins, the translation is very beautiful where it says, Love is a flash of fire that no torrents can quench and no floods can drown. Love is a flash of fire from the heart of God that no torrents can quench and no floods can drown. Love is a flash of fire from the heart of God, that no torrents can quench in love,

no floods can drown. For love, a man is prepared to give up everything he has and count nothing of the cost for love. So we get won over by the love of God, you know? And that's where, unfortunately, I think, I was missing out on until I had this experience with the Spirit. And so many, I think, may be missing out on

in their own personal lives, because we tend to think, I have to fight myself to get there, you know? I have to climb up this ladder of holiness, and then I find myself falling off, and then I try to climb up this ladder of holiness, and then I find myself falling off, and then I try to climb up again, I fall off again. And the Lord's saying, let me lift you. Let me take you up to the- There's Teresa of Lusia again.

Yeah, that's right, with the elevator. Yeah, lift me, take me away. That's all right. She's got that beautiful line about, you know, she says, it's your arms, Jesus, which the elevator that will lift. Yes, beautiful. So for that to happen, I don't need to become bigger. In fact, I have to become smaller. And so she says, so it's something to me. It's a joy for me to put up with myself the way that I am. Yeah. How true. Golly. Yeah, I like it. That's humility there, isn't it? To put up with ourselves the way that we are? I think so, yeah.

Sometimes, I think a therapist once said to me that when sometimes people go into therapy, trying to find healing, obviously a good and noble thing, sometimes this can mask a sort of self-hatred where I need to be better. I need to be fixed. Yeah, true. I don't like these.

The self-acceptance is the key, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. In the light of God. There you go. That's the… In the light of God. What's the difference between the self-acceptance that the world preaches and the self-acceptance that we Christians should accept?

In the light of God, yeah. Under the light of His love. That's the thing. And He ministers that to us, I think, really. Yeah, because we know, I always encourage people in retreats to look to the eyes of the Lord and see his eyes upon you, you know, how he beholds you. Behold yourself as he beholds you.

You know, not as you might try to think, but see his gaze upon you, and then you'll see the truth. You'll see the both sides of yourself, which is really humility, because humility is truth, isn't it? You see on the one hand your absolute beauty and goodness of your being that he has given to you,

he's created you in that way, and that he has given to you. He's created you in that way and how he delights in you. You'll also see the darker side of yourself too. And but the law will disclose that to you not to sort of, you feel condemned, but so that the more you see that, you'll more and more be able to surrender to him, because through our weakness,

you know, we find his strength. Yeah. I think it's Teresa of Avila who has that analogy of walking through a tunnel. And when the light is far off, you know, you look down, you think, I'm doing pretty good. Like I'm a good person, you know, I don't hurt anybody. I'm not Hitler.

Of course, the closer we get to the light, we get, what, we get what she is It's something on my shirt there flick that off Yeah, of course closer and closer we get we see it exactly and that's why Paul can say I'm the greatest sinner Yeah, that's right. He doesn't recognize that apart from the love of Christ I got John across staying at the stained glass window same thing Yeah, the light coming through the stained glass window you you clean it and then the sun gets brighter and you see more smudges. I want to talk a little bit about the charismatic renewal and I want to kind of maybe couch

it this way. You think about this revolution that took place among the mendicant orders, the Dominicans and the Franciscans. This explosion of vocations. It's hardly believable when you hear the numbers of young men that were leaving everything to join Francis. So you might hear about that, hear about all the good, and then you look around and go, well, where are they now? Where are the big Franciscan orders? And obviously there are some doing some good, but it's nothing like that seemed to be.

And so you think to yourself, would you you, maybe, maybe it was all for naught. Forgetting the fact that these tens of thousands of men who influenced tens of thousands of others might be before the Lord now because of this explosion of grace. Right. Yes. And I want to liken that maybe to whatever happened. Cause I wasn't there in the seventies and eighties of this very explosive. I think it's probably hard for people my age and younger to even understand what was taking place in the church that time. This explosion of grace that was messy, that sometimes got weird and yet souls were being

saved. Yes. I want you to talk about that, but I also want you to talk about and realizing that a lot of people have very negative views about the charismatic community, right? Because maybe they grew up in a covenant community and they saw the filth and the- Yes, yes, yes. You see what I'm saying? So it might sound good on paper, but it got weird, it got cultish, and then you somehow

link up this charismatic renewal with the bizarre liturgical dancing stuff and the liturgical abuses. Is it salvageable? Do you really want to go back to the 70s and 80s when this thing was exploding? Should it look different today? Should we be trying to recreate it? You see what I'm saying, I think. Yeah, that's fine.

How do I meet that matter? Well, I think, um, uh, in those early days, we were very, very much, as you say, like enthused and full of, um, uh, tremendous enthusiasm for the Lord, but it's only over years that we've gained the wisdom really to know how best to minister this grace really. When I think of the things we sometimes did in our youth ministry and all that sort of thing, I mean I think that wow, but we got away with it, but like, but it was, it was the Lord, but there's always a lot of humanity

in any movement of God, isn't there? Yeah. You know, and especially when there's a strong movement of the Lord, as this was, a lot of our own idiosyncrasies come up as well. And it sort of confuses the whole thing really. But on the other hand, I don't think we should underestimate the supernatural,

the God's supernatural action. Because there's a tendency of some people not to really sort of believe that God can do miracles, for example, you know, or that prophecy is real, or that you can lay hands on people the sick and they can be healed, you know. That those sort of manifestations are actually like meant to be almost commonplace

in the church I would believe. There certainly were in the early church and so the charismatic gifts should not be sort of squeezed out. And thankfully the second Vatican Council, actually in chapter 12 of Newman Gentium, they made it very clear that we're not just a sacramental church, we're a charismatic church.

And that the two go together. And John Paul II was very strong in insisting that we're co-essentially an institutional church and a charismatic church. That's good. You know, co-essential. So it's like the charisms are essential, but then of course, charisms need to be exercised responsibly.

And that was part of the problem, is that people are getting charisms and exercising them very irresponsibly, right? You know, and that can sort of, of course, then present a bad image, really. People are getting charism and exorcizing them very irresponsibly. And that can still of course then present a bad image really. And there's been a lot of silly stuff of course. And unfortunately, and unfortunately too, I think a lot of people who experienced that new influx of the Holy Spirit thought, oh, there's no place for me in the Catholic Church

that I went and joined some other group. That was a very sad outcome. But overall though, the fruit has been very good. And the lives of thousands and thousands of people, or millions of people really, have been transformed through this grace. And it still goes on, but I think in a much more mature fashion.

Okay. Right, I think we've matured, if you say that, in the way that we're ministering the grace, really. Just to make a quick analogy to embarrass myself, it's like a child who encounters something incredible and doesn't know how to handle it. I mean, I was 17 when I came to the Lord or he came to me and I went bananas. I remember I was serving alcohol at a club. I was working at this club and I just was scandalized by the sin and the immodesty.

So I checked this out Thursday. You'll love this. You'll never know this story. So I found the music and I pulled the plug and I just proclaimed about Jesus Christ in the middle of this story. So I found the music and I pulled the plug and I just proclaimed about Jesus Christ in the middle of this club, just yelling about the goodness of God. Mason- Yeah, right. Mason- Yeah. Now, he says he loves me so much. Thank you. Appreciate that. But it's like, it's easy. It's so easy to get tired. Oh, it's so easy to get tired. When I got married, the day I got married, this woman said to me, you getting married today? Turn and run. That's what she said. Right. It's the same idea.

It's so easy to be cynical. It's the easiest thing in the world. This life's bloody hard and it knocks you around and you're filled plague with disappointments. And it's easy to look at that young man in the club and be like, what a bloody idiot. And maybe he was, but for the Lord. And it's probably easy to look at these blooming things that you experienced and go, that was nuts. And yeah, maybe it was, like maybe there was an immaturity there, but it came out of this desire to respond to the Lord.

And it turns out the Lord knows how to write on crooked lines and can maneuver idiosyncratic whatever people, you know exactly. Yeah, and I yeah, can I ask a question? Yeah Was that it? Sorry, that's your one question gotta go so I have So I converted from Protestantism about 10 years ago. My family did. And whoops, I'm sorry. Hit this again. Don't worry about it. Um, my,

my, I have, I've had a lot of hesitancy, which has lessened a lot over the last two or three years with the charismatic stuff, because I kind of left Protestantism for Catholicism. All right, good. And I see it as, and I saw it for a long time as like some of the Protestant things that I thought were causing the problems of self, you know, people deciding for themselves,

participating in Catholicism in some way. So what can people who are like leaving Protestantism, trying to get away from that kind of stuff, still get from the Charismatic Movement, or what would you say to people like that? It's really about the Holy Spirit. We can't do without the Holy Spirit, seriously. Let's face it.

And it's really allowing, but allowing the Spirit to have his way with us, and allowing him to bring forward the gifts of the Spirit as well. But the primary thing the Spirit does, he wants to transform ourselves. So we can't close down that work of transformation that the Spirit wants. The more we can sort of surrender to the action of the Holy Spirit, the more like our whole life comes into order and the fruits can come forward of the Holy Spirit, the more like our whole life comes into order

and the fruits can come forward of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, all of that. So that's what the baptism of the Spirit, when you ask me, how do you know whether someone's really baptized in the Holy Spirit? I look to that, the fruits, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, et cetera, really. And the gifts of the Spirit are important for the church, really, but they're not so

much for the individual, they're actually for the ministry. The charismatic gifts are really given to us for the sake of the proclamation of the gospel, really. They're not sort of a, for our own personal edification at all. Really. Uh, that's important to remember as well. I think if I could step in here, I think what I might try to say just to kind of help somebody become a little more open to what people like Ralph Martin, who I love and father, Ken, and these other folks who are beautifully charismatic and holy, I'd say, all right, so you love, there's always this binary thing, isn't there,

between like the sacramental and the charismatic elements, given different names, right? The institutional, the whatever, evangelistic. It's all the Holy Spirit. Amen, amen. But you can imagine somebody coming in and they're kind of a little, and they just want the structure and they want it neat and they want it � and that's good, I do too. I think one way to kind of introduce them to this is to say, �Does the Lord know you personally? Yes, of course He does.

Okay, good. Is He at work in your life today? What's He doing? What's the work He's doing? Do you believe that or not? Because I think some of us, we don't really believe it. That maybe God sees us as a clump of humanity, but he doesn't see little Matt Fratt over there with all his issues and aspirations.

And so if you can go, okay, all right, no, he knows me, he wants to work in my life. All right, so how does that look? What's happening? Does he wanna do more in your life? Could you perhaps call upon him to do more in your life? And as soon as you start opening that up, you start to get dangerously close to these charismatic folks who seem to have this living relationship with Jesus.

And that's nothing to be afraid of. And maybe it's like we're triggering each other. So you've got the people who are tired of the mess and the craziness. And so they locked down and everything's very squared away. But then you get these people who are disenchanted with the lockdown squared everything away because it's too rigid. Yes. And they end up doing this.

And you see what I mean? We're kind of. Yeah, that's fair enough. I don't quite know what to say to people. It just depends on what their experience is. I'd be interested to talk to Thursday a bit more about their experience, but I don't know whether he wants to.

Oh, he'd love to. I'll talk about whatever you wanna talk about, Father. I'm not so sorry. No, just do it. But I'm thinking of your experience, my friend, like just when you say coming into the Catholic Church, what was most important about that for you? The Mass.

Praise God. Yeah, absolutely. And thank God for that, you know, that you come to the Eucharist. That's beautiful. That was the Mass to the Eucharist. That's beautiful That was the mass in the Eucharist Exactly. That's the high that's the high That's the climax of all we're about is Catholics, isn't it? Really? So it's the center of our life And so that's the high point

But that doesn't exclude the action of the Holy Spirit, does it? In fact, it's all about the Holy Spirit. And why would you think that you need to let go of the action of the Holy Spirit? I don't think it's that. The things that made me or still slightly make me nervous in the charismatic movement were the prominence of lay people as spiritual ministers to the level of and above priests because part of what I didn't like in Protestantism was the everybody. The hierarchy was something very important to me and I saw that in the mass. Oh, okay.

You know, see my experience has been different to that. That like, it's really important for lay people in the church to be able to live out their baptism and their confirmation as fully as possible, isn't it? Really. And like someone like yourself, Matt, I mean, you're obviously living it out as. Yeah.

Yeah. And, but then that should not in any way be in competition with the hierarchy at all really. Working together as a collaboration. And so I found it really good to lay people are able to sort of take up preaching, lay people can sort of like minister in appropriate ways, et cetera, but not in any way to take the place of the priest. Was it that people were looking to them for spiritual authority in a way that they weren't

because they've got some apparent gift which they may or may not possess, but people look to them anyway. Just like the, the, the acceptance of like these people claiming a gift for themselves and it didn't seem to be like affirmed by the church explicitly in any way, which is one of the things I found most beautiful about Catholicism was the universalizing In that manner and then yeah, yeah, yeah that a lot of a lot of the charismatic groups I saw in the church You know years ago were you know, just independent from any priest or or Yeah, okay, or or if a priest told them maybe,

maybe your role on that, that priest was like to be, his word was not taken to be as authoritative as theirs because they had some type of gift in this matter. Yeah, yeah, because that's a shame really, because the gift of the hierarchy and lay people working together with the priest is like a symphony if you like, you know, is really meant to be. But do you see that, real quick, do you see that happening today on podcasts?

I mean, you could say the same thing about people are listening to this Catholic YouTuber and I think it's, I think that kind of listening to the priest or the church, right? Yeah. No, I think it's moving into traditionalism too. But do you see what we're saying? So if it's true in one sense that someone's going to someone with apparent charismatic gifts and they're not listening to the church, yeah, it could be true in the sense that someone's going to someone with apparent charismatic gifts and they're not listening to the church. It could be true in the other sense that, well, church hierarchy, whatever, I'm listening to my favorite podcaster now. Well, you see, the thing about charismatic gifts is they must always be in submission,

in obedience. That's one of the tests, whether it's an authentically charismatic gift or used well. The tests are really humility and obedience to authority. If that's not present, then they're disordered really. And sure, there's been a lot of disorder, I think, over the years. And probably not so much these days, but there certainly has been disorder, you know, where those things have been in competition in the wrong way. See, what I'm seeing at Franciscan, which kind of came out of this charismatic movement,

is you've got the majority of people up on campus, I would say, if not the majority, well over 50% of people, kneeling to receive Eucharist, the women wanting to veil, them wanting a traditional mass. So I'd want to say to Father Dave as the work gets done on this church here, if we're listening to the Spirit, we shouldn't exclude the possibility of putting in an altar rail and maybe thinking that the Holy Spirit is leading us to this more traditional way of worship. Well, that's a decision that has to be made by them, I guess. Yeah.

That really, I can tell him, but it, um, yeah. Um, but what do you think about that idea though? Cause I, I see people saying, like you, you said you came to Francis can 83, what did you say to do this thing? And you said it was different than, yeah. Should we not think that this maturity that may be taking place is leading us into something that looks more traditional than maybe it did in the 70s? Well, I think we take out of our treasure chest what's new and old.

You take, for example, our Light to the Nations experience, which I think you know something about. Yeah, I never went, but I've heard great things. Yeah, and it's basically the Easter liturgy, the Easter liturgies, the whole of the Triduum from Holy Thursday through Good Friday, Easter Saturday, etc. Now it's all the experience of the liturgies, really. But around that too, there's other things that are happening where people are camping and it's like a pilgrimage event,

and some people get to stay inside like me, but most people are camping. And then we have this wonderful experience of liturgies. Liturgies are done in a faithful way to what the church calls us to do in the way we engage in liturgies are done in a faithful way to what the church calls us to do in the way we engage in liturgies. We celebrate it in a way that's fully praising God and giving God the glory, etc., and letting loose as much as possible within the liturgical expressions, you know, the praise of God, you know,

and we're not trying to sort of like contain it or hold it back too much. And it's beautiful. It's like bringing forth with your treasure chest, both new and old. There's this new movement of the spirit in the church to revive the church in these days, I think, you know, to renew hearts and to set us free.

But then there's also all of the tradition that's been given to us. It's so rich, you know, and you don't wanna lose anything of the rich Catholic tradition. Now, that's one example. Another example is like our ordinations. When do we have our ordinations? We have the liturgy in such a way that you'll have a Latin motet

and you'll have some charismatic praise. There's a whole slew of stuff going on. It's the old and the new, really. And it's been very faithful though to the liturgy of the church. So it's having that faithfulness to the liturgy, but at the same time, the freedom too. You see, because what's interesting about worship, you know, when the Samaritan woman met Jesus and Jesus spoke to her and everything, and you know, as she started talking about worship, and he said, well, there'll come a time, you know, as she started talking about worship and he said, well, there'll

come a time, you know, you're worshipping on what's the name? Oh, I forget, on the mountain. Yeah, and we worship in Jerusalem, but there'll come a time when true worshipers will worship in spirit and truth. It won't be on Mount Jerozim or in Jerusalem as such. So that won't be important. What will be important is it's a true worshiper, not the style of worship, but the true worshiper. So whatever we engage in,

whatever way we establish our worship and rituals etc., the issue will be how true is the worshiper? Is the worshiper happening in spirit and truth from the heart? Because often times people can get so caught up in having to get the liturgical rubrics right of one kind or another that the spirit of worship is lost. So we always have to be asking for the Holy Spirit to revive our worship, that is worship from the heart. I think that's the key thing in the whole issue, whichever way we go about our worship

as church, you know? And the other thing is too, I don't think we should be turning the Eucharist into a battleground. But see, the argument from maybe more my side is that when people who claim to be moved by the Spirit turn it into something that the Second Vatican Council hasn't even called for in Sacrosanctum Concilium, but it's they who are turning into the battleground. And then there's a reaction to that.

And then the people who are reacting to these novelties that are being instituted are the ones who are often attacked as being too rigid or something. You see? Yeah. So how we work through that I don't know, but like certainly it's not good that it's a battleground. Right, we can agree with that, yeah. Yeah, it's not good because it's a Eucharist.

Amen. It's our heart, you know, it's the sacrifice of Jesus and it's what unites us. And the whole purpose of Eucharist is like, of course, it's about unity, isn't it? That we eat the body of Christ to become the body of Christ. So we're made one through the Eucharistic celebration. That's our – I think it was Lewis – I know he was an Anglican – but he said something to the effect of when the priest begins tinkering with the liturgy to make everybody feel more

at home, the opposite happens. when the priest begins tinkering with the liturgy to make everybody feel more at home, the opposite happens because we're now just encountering something that he's putting together instead of what the church has put together. Yeah, it's very important of course for priests to be moving in the spirit of liturgy rather than just the right spirit. We've got a bunch of questions here if you don't mind. Kyle.

Yeah. We want to read Um, Kyle, yeah. We want to read hollow real quick. Yes. Have you heard of how low before? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Do people know about it in Australia?

They do. I think that you could certainly, it's an advert. I got to, it's required contractual. Yeah. We have contract. Okay. Hello is a fantastic Catholic app. It's the number one downloaded Catholic app on the app stores.

And it was it even beat Tick Tock earlier in the year when people are all excited about establishing a prayer rule. So we'd recommend you go to hello. H a l l o w dot com slash Matt. And when you do that and sign up there just by using that link, you'll get Hallow's app for free for three months. You get the entirety of the app, not just bits and pieces. You can try it out for three months for free. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay a cent.

I use it. We love to play little Bible stories for the kids. They, uh, to put them to sleep sometimes at night. And it's quite good. It's funny. I think like, hello, I don't know if this is, I think it's good, but like, you know, 10 years ago, if you saw somebody with headphones in the adoration chapel, you'd be like, what are you buddy doing? Whereas now you're like, ah, hello.

It has this beautiful prayer experiences that will lead you through hello.com slash at. All right. So I haven't read these questions ahead of time. They're coming through as we're sitting here. So let's see. Kyle says, Matt, you mentioned the exhaustion that's experienced by serving the Lord. What's the recharge method when you hit that point? I might ask you that.

Yeah. Yeah. What did I say? Exhaustion? I don't know if I said I'm exhausted, but I guess I was talking about it's easy to become cynical. It's easy to- Yeah, right, yeah. Well, I go aside every month for two days into solitude.

That's really my recharge very much. And the recharge is very simple. It's just coming back to the Lord and being recharged in him and the relationship. So it's like John the beloved resting against the chest of Jesus, just going aside and just being there, listening to his heart again and opening my heart up to him

where it's sort of struggling or you know how you can get off center very quickly and not realize you're off center. So I sort of come back centered again in him. No, it's the whole thing of Mary at the feet of Jesus, just absorbing his presence rather than Martha out there working. And Martha's great, but you need that Mary part, don't you?

Where you're just simply there at his feet and soaking up his presence. So otherwise the relationship gets lost. In all the busyness and the pressures that are on us, especially of ministry, if that person is in full-time ministry especially, it's just so hard. Or it could just be the troubles of life,

you know, the suffering that you're going through, just being able to draw a side with the Lord and have that quiet time. Now, not everybody, of course, has that capacity, I guess, or freedom to do that. I'm thankful I do. I put it, the first thing I put into my calendar, you know, every month, those two days with the side with the Lord,

it centers me again in him. So that's a key thing. Whatever that, however that can be achieved in your life, that's the way I think. I would imagine we actually have, it's like prayer. It's easy to say I don't have time, but if something's important, we make time. We have time to watch that TV show.

We have time to ingest that podcast, this one. We find time for things we love. So that's interesting. I love that, the start of every month, you choose those two days. That's beautiful. Yeah, it's critical for me. Otherwise, I think I'd come unstuck.

That's good. I know for me, and people are different, but for me, this thing I both love and hate. Oh yes. The phone. Oh, the phone. So I leave, I try to leave it whenever I can at the office along with my computer and just not be on constant reaction. That's what the phone makes you.

It turns you into a reactionary. Absolutely. You're always reacting to it. You're getting changed. It vibrates. Absolutely. Yeah. Buzzing and beeping. Yep. Absolutely. Always reacting to fire. Absolutely. Yeah. Buzzing and beeping. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And it's hard to get loose with it too once you're on show.

The expectations are very high that you'll have an instant response and what sort of thing. Yeah. I don't even say this is some advice for people who run a YouTube channel because we talked about this the other day, Thursday, where it's like, if you keep cranking out content, now that's really good for the channel. It's really good for the algorithm. Yeah. And then you're stuck in this cycle where, well, maybe I don't want to be, who

cares if it tanks, will it tank a little bit? Why do I have to be on this treadmill forever? Is that the idea? Um, and so not to get caught in that trap, you know, to allow the Lord to be in charge more than the YouTube algorithm. If he wants someone to see it He'll allow them to see it and you can just step away a little and That's great. Mad. You have a real heart for the Lord. Don't you? I hope so. Yeah, you do. Yeah

Yeah, you're hungry for God. I love him more today than ever. That's the big thing. Isn't that hunger? Let's get that hunger going. I really thirst for God. Yeah You're earning for more really? is that that hunger, let's get that hunger going. I really thirst for God. You're earning for more, really. Well, and to say to the Lord, Lord, I'm not gonna wait until I feel like I hunger for you to tell you that I hunger for you. I hunger for you.

I want you. Help me to want you more than my morning coffee. Absolutely. Help me. I don't. That's a big one. That's a big one. That's a big one, yeah. It's a big one.

Help me to want you more than sins. Help me to want you more than sins how we wanted sin yeah come Lord Jesus nevermind sorry, oh, what did you say? Oh, what's that? What's the nicotine? Sin sin too, but I want sins really RJ m take TK says it seems like a various, various forms of a CDA are prevalent in people these days. How do you suggest we battle against this in teams? Yeah, I say a Chadia. Yeah. That's like a soft sort of thing, but it's, um,

the monks used to find that they call it the noon day devil, but they've been there. They're supposed to be in their cell, but it gets hot and so noon day, and they leave what they're meant to be doing. That's the thing where knowing what is God's will for you now, because your joy is gonna be found in doing God's will even if it's hard, whatever you're meant to be doing in the Lord.

But if you find yourself getting distracted and taken off by other things, it's gonna be something that at first will taste good, but it won't really satisfy and free you. That's the acharya problem, isn't it, really? And so it's good to keep checking ourselves on that. I think that's part of the reason for that two days, by the way, is looking at, well,

where have I got distracted, where have I been taken off? Because you've got to sort of keep your eyes fixed on the target all the time. And otherwise you just deviate a little bit, like an ocean line or something, if it puts its bearings wrongly on one side of the ocean, just by just a fraction, but at times the other side will be way out of whack.

It's like that, we can't let ourselves get deflected too much. And it's the enemy's, his tactic is to deflect us really. Not necessarily wipe us out of the game. Eventually we get wiped out of the game, but initially it's just sort of deflected sufficiently so that we're not doing what we're meant to be in God's plan doing, we're caught up in something else.

And so that's sort of the noonday devil, the tricky one really, it comes disguised as an angel of light. I think Aquinas defines, uh, sloth as a sort of, uh, uh, despondency in the face of spiritual goods, something to that effect. We're called to something, but it's too arduous or something. Right. Okay. Yes. I, uh, I, since this person asked about teens in particular, I think they said teens. Sorrow about spiritual good. Yeah.

Was it sorrows? Sorrow about spiritual good. And it's I can't say that word facetiousness of the mind, which neglects to be good. Facetiousness, fastidious, I don't know. I don't know for teens, like I think my my son son who's 16, I think if you pulled him aside and you asked him and I didn't, he'd probably agree that it was a great thing that his father never bought him a smartphone. And I think that these, if one option is, I'm not mandating this for the entirety of the church, one option would be to homeschool your kids in a good Catholic community with

other beautiful, crazy wild families and do not allow your children to have smartphones and allow them to have extremely limited access to screens and the internet. Do not allow them at all on social media. And then I think that will help a great deal with this, um, a CD of stuff because you, right. We, we get so exhausted by entertainment. We do every August.

I tend to, we'll see what happens this August. I take the month off of the internet in August from start to the end. I give away my phone. I give away my computer, but something very interesting computer. Well done. But something very interesting happens. And that is I actually crave entertainment. It sounds funny. And I know it's not the goal of giving up entertainment is to start craving it. But I actually want it. I'm like, I'd love to watch a movie. But I don't think that anymore. Because all day long, I find that I'm this tweet, that Facebook post, this quick YouTube video. It's like I'm gorging myself

with little tidbits of entertainment. It's like if you ate all day, you don't want to eat dinner. But that sort of stuff kills contemplation, you know. It's pretty clear now that that's probably the biggest obstacle to developing a contemplative spirit, which I think all of us should develop, not just monks or whatever. We all need to have that sort of contemplative heart where we're in love with the Lord. But we lose touch of that, you know, by all of this stimulation all the time. Yeah. We're stimulated, we're overstimulated, you know.

That's right. It cools the heart. Amen. Really. Yeah, I could talk forever on this. I won't. I always talk about this. So I better stop because people get sick of it.

Bingo. Bingo. He wants a bingo card where when I say things, I always say. OK. Is there a piece of advice, Kyle asks, that you wish a younger father can would have received or got, but didn't listen to. So as a younger priest, what advice do you wish someone gave you? Or maybe you were given it and you didn't listen to. So as a younger priest, what advice do you wish someone gave you? Or maybe you were given it and you didn't listen to it. What do you wish you listened to? Does that make sense? It's a good question. It does make sense, I guess. Yeah. The advice, yes.

So for me, real quickly, as a younger married man, I wish the advice someone gave to me or advice I listened to was implant yourself into a vibrant Catholic community. Find it, get there as soon as you can because life's bloody hard and you're gonna need brothers and sisters. Because all the other things that I could give you advice about, young Matt Fred, that you won't take right now will be much easier if you adjust in a community of people who love you and are helping you. But that's good. But what advice would? Yeah, I think for me, it would be probably as a young priest, I think I was too worried about my performance. I wanted to perform well. And I was matching myself against other guys who

seemed to be doing so much better. And of comparing myself and my own worth and value was sort of suffering as a result and I was too much focused on myself and I probably needed the advice to let that go. That makes sense. But would have you received it? Because I'm sure if somebody said that to you back then it's not like you would have when I've never thought of that. Yeah. You would have went well yes of course like you would have when I've never thought of that. Yeah. You would have went, well, yes, of course I, I, you would have nodded sagely to that advice, but yeah, listening to it. It's hard.

Exactly. That's true. Yeah. But it sounds like you were able to receive it when the Holy Spirit allowed you. That's true. That's yeah. That that's when things changed more than ever for sure. Yeah.

What advice, because you're 12 and a half Thursday. I'm 24. Sorry. What advice do you wish as a 24 year old man that maybe you were given, let's say, I don't know, 16, 15. Oh, at 15 or 16. Sure. Or whenever.

Hmm. A tough one. I think I wish somebody had sat, because one of the struggles I always had in education was that I was smart enough in high school to not have to try. So I didn't learn how to try. And then when I got to college, I didn't know how. So I think maybe not so much like a single piece of advice, but I think I wish that somebody would have taught me how to learn or how to work on education. But I wouldn't change it now because if I had gotten my education, I wouldn't be here. enough. Kiwi JJ 555642 probably not their real name says, father, are you experiencing the same trans craziness in Australia? And do you have any thoughts

or suggestions on how we can respond? Transgender. Yes, we are. It's probably throwing up rainbows at this point. It's getting stuffed into you from every angle, isn't it? And Australia doing this month, I remember. Coming at us, yeah, that's true. It's a hard one, I think, because on the one hand, we have to sort of meet things compassionately. There's a lot of very confused people,

but we have to speak the truth. And I think, so I haven't, to tell you the truth, I haven't come up against it personally in my own ministry at this point in time, but I'm reading a lot about it and hearing people talk about it and that sort of stuff, but I haven't actually had to sort of like sit down with someone and work things through.

So I haven't had that firsthand experience. I think that, but I would hope that when that moment comes, I will be able to sort of meet it with compassion. I think compassion is really important because I think there's a lot of confused people, usually confused, you know? And it's a cultural confusion, really. That's the problem, isn't it?

It's not as if it's, and so all sorts of crazy expectations have come up around this whole issue of gender. So, and I think there's, possibly with young people, there's like a, they're taking it from one another. The social contagion element. You've got social contagion, that's what I was talking about. That's a big issue. It's tough because you've got those who are confused and then you've got evil corporations that are trying to brainwash people. It's sort of like pornography.

If I sat across from a man who tells me he looks at pornography, of course, I know the fight, I know it's tough, compassion. But then if I've got people pumping it into my living rooms on purpose, then well, the judgment of God is a real thing and hell is eternal. True. Yeah, it's really tragic for the society. The level of confusion is so deep that I'm not sure how to meet it, quite frankly. Well, I pray that priests and bishops in Australia will speak manfully against it with compassion.

This truthfulness. We so need the church to help lead the way here because we have the true anthropology. I think it's the Second Vatican Council, when God is forgotten, the creature becomes unintelligible. The bishops of Australia have put something out for education institutions. It's for schools, you know, how to meet in the schools. Is it good? It's okay, it's okay, but it's hard. I think they're trying to sort of like accommodate in some way.

And that won't work. It's hard to know how it should respond. These people, and by people I mean those pushing this ideology are unfriendable. They're not interested. It's a zero sum game. We have to be bloody manly, I think, in our refutation of this. I'm worried though for the young people who are caught up in this. They're the ones I feel for because

and their parents are terribly confused, et cetera. And there's a beautiful story recently that I read of a parent who had worked with her teenage daughter and the daughter wanted to change and that sort of stuff. And she really kept working with them, working with her. And, and finally she's come through it, you know, but so often that people just give in to the lie. That's the problem. That's where we don't want church leaders and priests and bishops sacrificing truth on the altar of niceness where parents

need to be told, you've been, you're supposed to love your child, not allow someone to butcher them. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's, that's important. And, and, um, but then when you see, when you're in the middle of the issue, I haven't actually had to go front of face to face yet, but when you're in the middle of the, someone's struggle's struggle, trying to walk with them through that, I don't know how we're going to do it really. Because you can't just sort of beat people over the head and say, this is all wrong.

But we have to meet them. But then try and help people to be led out of that over time. You know, it's, so I'm not really an expert in this area, but I- Well, I would recommend it, since you said you're reading on this. Yeah. Something I'd recommend you take a look at if you're interested or those who haven't seen this

is my interview with Jason Everett, who's fantastic fella who speaks a lot on chastity, and he's done a deep dive into this issue. Yeah. And this fella threads the needle in a way that I haven't seen done between truth and just compassion. Yeah. And so I interviewed him a couple of months ago now, Jason Everett, E-V-E-R-T.

He wrote a book on this issue. So, and that was like a two and a half hour chat is brilliant. He knows a great deal. Uh, thank you. Okay. Carmen. You know what I don't like? Yeah, I know what you don't like. What you tell him what I don't like.

He doesn't like it when they say anonymous in it, but it does say it in the- I said their name and then they said anonymous, please. Now what do I do with that? Oh, you've used it. That's what I don't like. We should just start like anonymizing all the questions. I guess it doesn't matter.

I'll ask a couple of comments in the world. Let's face it. Yeah, I'll ask a couple of questions and then we'll get to that one. Let's anonymize the rest of them. No one else is being. Yes. All right. Can you ask the one right above that, though?

Because I feel like that would make a good clip. Sure. In the almost half century that you, Father, have been a priest, what are the most distinct differences you see in new priests versus the priests you were in formation with? Well, that's an interesting question. Well, you know, it's interesting. We started off with 28 in our class in formation in the Darshan Priesthood, and six of us were ordained, right? So there was a big drop off.

That's the first thing to those. But what's the difference? I think it depends, you see, on who you're talking about. I can talk about our priests. Our priests are very different. Are they? Today than they were back in the... I think it depends, you see, on who you're talking about. I can talk about our priests. Our priests are very different. Are they today than they were back in the, or different from the other, yeah.

Well, different in the sense that we, obviously we move in the grace of renewal, et cetera. That's very different from others, from some. But I think it varies. So our priests would be much more aware of who they are, much more aware of their own weaknesses and their struggles and willing to seek help in that regard, especially in human development.

Like I think we've put a lot of effort into human development, not thinking that the Holy Spirit's gonna solve everything in a supernatural way, but rather that human development is grace built on nature. Yeah, yeah. So we've done a lot of work. Like the Holy Spirit's omnipotent,

but you need to still brush your teeth, right? Instead of just praying for good dental hygiene. So I think that's been very important. So working guys so that, you know, they'll be able to sort of relate well with people and not be over the top of people in a harsh way, but also have good psychosexual development. And having that within a covenant community has been very helpful because we're talking

with lay people all the time, we're sharing with people, we're in and out of their homes, and it's sort of like they're our friends. And so the young guys who are being formed, they're not just being formed in an isolated sort of way, but they're connected in with lay people and it gives us sort of a much healthier sort of a climate and environment, no?

But you can be loved and that sort of thing and love in a sort of healthy way rather than sort of just be isolated and feeling frustrated because nobody loves me or I've got nobody to love, that sort of thing. Okay. Yeah, so that makes a big difference for a well-rounded sort of priestly presence, really. Because celibacy, of course, is a big issue, isn't it, really, and being able to live that out in a rich and good and wholesome sort of way. So that's one thing I could mention.

All right, Another question here. This person says, I have a little experience with the MGLs in particular, the sisters, such a joyful group, especially St. Therese, Sister Therese, sorry. I shouldn't be canonizing her yet. They hold a biennial Easter youth celebration. Having witnessed the celebration, it reminded me of a Hillsong celebration somewhat but a Catholic version. Can father please explain how this Easter pilgrimage came to be? It's called Light to the Nations. And then this person says PS such a tough gig being a Catholic in Canberra

the government just took back the Catholic hospital there. We are fighting for it. Yes right. So that's the light of the nations. Yeah. That started because I'd been in France and I saw the, um, what the French community was doing with a pilgrimage. And I thought, wow, we should have a pilgrimage. So we went to the Redemptive monastery in Galon and, um, asked whether we could sort of have a pilgrimage event there or the Easter.

And I wanted it to be very much something that was, you know, drawing from the best of the Catholic tradition and liturgical tradition, and then also under the experience of the Charismatic renewal. So that was the idea of, and to have a pilgrimage that would, you know, draw people together and celebrate that right at the highest point

of our liturgical experience as church knowing that. Do you still do that every Easter? We do it every second Easter. Ah, okay. And yeah, we still do it. That's a, it's a wonderful experience. And, um, so yeah, that's how it came about. It was, I guess it was a vision the Lord gave me to sort of, uh, and of course the community has taken it up as it's not my work.

It's the community's work. Yeah. Um, I guess a personal question here since you've been, what do you call yourself? The moderator of the MGLs or what would the moderate I used to be until Graham Fubar. Yes, I was. I have been from the very beginning until November last year. What's it like letting your hands off the wheel as it were? I mean, seeing this thing, giving birth to it, dealing with it.

I mean, at some point having to give it to the Lord and allow other, you know, weak men, like we're all weak. Yeah. Well, I've been very grateful because we've had a beautiful succession plan that actually worked. Imagine that. Yeah. So it seems like it's working anyway, that there's a new leadership in place and they were elected,

but we did a lot of preparation and it's going so well. We have a new leader, Steve Fletcher, he's a great guy and been with me from very early years and has a strong vision for keeping going what has been begun and they're very intent upon the charism not being in any way diminished. So anything to do with the charism they'll come and talk to me about. So I'm sort of very grateful that in my lifetime this has actually been able to happen, the transition, because that's the weakest moment in a congregation or any new movement really, the weakest moment is when the key leader has to step aside

or dies or something like that. So far the signs are really good that we're going forward and they're trying to level out the leadership because I was doing too much. That's because I was the initial guy. But now it's being leveled out. And so I'm grateful for that. And so what's it like for me personally?

Well, first of all, it's that gratitude. Secondly, I don't really know what I'm doing. Next, in one sense, I'm sorting that out. That's part of what I'm doing at the moment. It's just sort of searching as to what will be the best way I can contribute, and that will be in obedience anyway. I'm in obedience to the new man. New bishop? Is that who you mean?

It's not the bishop, no, no. Who's the new man? Oh, I see, of course, the angel. Yes. Right. Yes. So we have a new leader in obedience to him. And could he send you into solitude to pray for the rest of your days?

Anywhere. And I'd have to obey. But I'm sure it'll be dialogue. You'll get a taste of your own medicine. Exactly. No, we have a very dialogical understanding of obedience. You know, it is obedience ultimately, but we talk through WhatsApp placements and that sort of stuff before actually sending someone somewhere. Yeah. Good. Praise God. I am so, I love you Father and I'm so grateful for you. Thank you. Yeah, I've known you for, you know, we've had probably interactions that were so brief you've probably forgotten them, but they meant a lot to

me. Okay. And so you have in little ways kind of encouraged me and your prayerfulness has been a great witness to me. And I'm just, this is an honor to be able to sit down with you, so thanks for agreeing to do it. Yeah, yeah, and we're very proud of you in Australia. We know a lot of people watch you in Australia. Yeah, you've got a big following. Oh, pray for me.

Yeah, yeah, and so you're doing great work and that, yeah, it's great. You're one of our fine exports, you know? We'll see how long that lasts. Father, I've put a link to your MGL website. Thank you. Below, is there anything else you'd like to point people to? I know this is a book, I've loved this book so much.

So for those, when I came, you know, you want to grab it closer, it's out of focus all the way back there. I would, but it's not for sale right now. Because this beautiful book is about to come back into reprint though. Isn't it? Yeah, it's about to come back. This book was such a blessing to me and I pick it up every couple of years and I'm so blessed. Even if I just read three to four chapters, I'm so blessed by it. Yeah, we're publishing it on Amazon So it'll it'll come forward again. Please let me know when it's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah good. Okay

It's coming out again. I've done other books, of course as well, you know, like God help us Well What can we point people to? I mean, you have a, don't the MGLs have a YouTube channel or? We've got, what have we got there? I did give it to you. Oh, did you?

Thursday. Did you give it to Thursday or Melanie? I did, yeah. Thursday's looking at me like I don't know what that is. But we'll put some links up so that people get connected with you. I'll put them up. That'd be great. And if anyone is discerning priesthood and would like to maybe come and visit

you, how does that work? Works really well. Just to come and see, yeah. Just come and see, yeah. Just to make contact on the website or whatever and, uh, or with me personally, cause I'm still doing a lot of that sort of work. And, um, yeah, they can come and visit and just check us out. Good. We do come and see sort of things. Well, you did one yourself, didn't you? I came to one of those. Yeah. Great time.

Oh, we failed. Yeah. You know, you told me a good story about when you, uh, after you decided to become a priest, I won't say the story. I'll let you do it. When you went and told your dad, Oh yes. You don't have to say everything. That was funny because it all happened in a day. I think I mentioned that, didn't I? This is how we began the podcast.

Yeah. You were talking about it. We began with that, yeah. And so then I had to go and tell my parents. And they lived a bit further away. So I hitchhiked out to where they were. And they didn't know why I was home because, and so we had dinner together and then dad used to go

outside and he'd sit on a bench outside and just look at the stars, you see, and have a cigarette. And so I thought, well, I better tackle him first. So dad wasn't a Catholic, he was what he called a Calathumpian, that means like nothing. But he really was a Methodist, he'd go on sometimes at Christmas.

So I tackled him first, so I went out there and I see a cigarette and I said, dad, I've got something to tell you. He said, what's that son? I said, I've decided to become a priest. And he let out an expletive, which I probably can't say here. It's Australian expletive.

And the cigarette dropped. And then I thought I'll leave him there. I went in and told mom and she started, Kathy, my mom, I'm tearing, I'm losing him there. Retreat. I went in and told mom and she started to, you know, Kathy, my mom, Terry, I'm losing my son. And like I said, he's having a little cry. And then dad comes in. He thought about it. He said, son, if you're going to be a priest, be a bloody good one.

It's lovely. I love that advice. That was it. That was like the father's place. I love Australian dad advice. I've shared this before. When I when I first told my dad who wasn't much of a practicing Catholic that I decided to propose marriage to Cameron, I shared in the ring and you my dad wasn't raised a Christian. Yes. And sometimes the truest things come out of the mouth of people who don't have the Christiany language to use.

Yeah. So he said, well, you just make sure you don't be bloody jumping in and out of bed with different Sheilas. You'd be faithful to her. That was a good advice I got. Isn't that wonderful? It's a good advice. Straight advice as far as advice goes.

Straight up. Terrific. Terrific. So I tried to be a bloody good button. Praise God. Yeah. You know, I want to start inviting people to give their lives to Jesus more explicitly, Father.

So as we wrap up here, would it be okay if I asked you to look into this camera and speak to whoever's watching? I'd love to. To help them and help me. I'll pray along with them. Give their life for the first time to Jesus Christ or for the Yes, you know, okay So, yes, I think it's really important for us to just turn to the Lord

To know the great love that he has for you you may not be able to feel that love you may not be able to Experience it at this moment, but we know that Jesus hung on the cross for each one of us. And when he was raised up on that cross, it was so that you could have salvation. You know, he has pierced through for our faults, crushed our sins. On him lies a punishment that sets us free. By his wounds we are healed.

So I just invite you to look to Jesus on the cross in your mind to be thinking of Jesus crucified or maybe before a crucifix that you have in your room or wherever you are, just look to him and gaze upon him as the one who has loved you and given himself completely for your sake, the one who has sacrificed himself for you, the one who now is present to you as the risen Lord. And look upon him in your mind's eye and just simply to repeat after me what the words these words Lord Jesus, I commit myself to you. I commit myself to you.

I thank you that you are my savior. I thank you that you are my savior. I acknowledge you as my Lord. I acknowledge you as my Lord. I give to you my past. I give to you my past. I give to you my past. My present. My present.

And I entrust you my future. And I entrust you my future. My life is in your hands. My life is in your hands. Cleanse my heart by your precious blood. Cleanse my heart by your precious blood. Grant me your spirit. Grant me your spirit. Grant me your spirit.

May I live for you, Lord. May I live for you, Lord. May I love you with all my heart. May I love you with all my heart. May my life be yours. May my life be yours. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord.

Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. Amen. Amen. Praise the Lord. Thank you Lord. Thank you Jesus. Amen. Amen. Praise the Lord. Thank you, Padre. Thanks for coming. This is good indeed. Thank you very much.

Good. Sorry about the noise there at the end guys. It's Dean Martin Day. Dean Martin Festival taking place outside. It's Dean Martin Day. There's a parade. No, you could hear all of it. That's why I got up and closed the door. I was like, what?

That was so funny. Right at that moment. We pray for the repose of Dean Martin's soul. Maybe that's what we're trying to, they're trying to communicate these. That was so funny. Anyway, for the podcast listeners, that's what that noise was. We apologize. Yeah. God bless.

Thanks.