Pints With Aquinas - Why Chloe Cole Detransitioned

Episode Date: June 1, 2024

Chloe Cole started puberty blockers and testosterone at 13 years old. She had a double mastectomy at 15. At 16 years old she detransitioned. Shortly after she began advocating against the medical practices done to her. She now travels the country doing this work in hope of saving other children from this evil. Support the Show: https://mattfradd.locals.com Show Sponsors: https://exodus90.com/matt https://strive21.com/matt https://hallow.com/mattfradd  

Chloe Cole. Hello. Hi there. Thank you so very much for flying all the way from California. Yeah. Thank you for having me here. Do you travel a lot? Quite a bit, actually. I mean, for the past like two years of my life, I've been I've been traveling for work for pretty pretty much every week, at least like once every week, on average. I mean, some weeks it gets pretty busy, like up to like four flights in just seven days going to all... I've only, so far I've only really traveled within the US for my work, but I've honestly lost count of all the states that I've been to. I often have like repeat states too. Mason Hickman I used to travel a lot for work. I don't know if it's as much as you, but it was nine days a month and there had to be like time in between each other. About three, it was about three

trips a month. But now that I'm older, I'm really glad not to do that anymore. It's not sustainable. I very much enjoyed it at the time. I especially being from Australia and getting to see all the different states and the wonderful cities. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's really cool. It's really kind of just reaffirmed my love for the country actually. Just because like every place is so different. There's like a different culture. There's different cuisine, different people, different history, different architecture, and it's so, it's so, it's so beautiful.

But a question that I often get asked usually by people who live outside of California is like, you know, like People often say people who don't live in California who have never lived in California Tend to give it a lot of crap the rest known as like oh, it's the Cree it's it's the crazy state or all like this crazy like liberal stuff and all these crazy social issues and and laws are are happening. Um, because they don't really know just how beautiful it is. And it's like, so they often ask me like, when are you going to move out? Like, why aren't you, why aren't you out of California already? Isn't it super expensive and crazy there? And it's like, no, like it's such, we have all these issues, of course, and no state, no place on earth is perfect. Yeah.

Except Montana. I don't know. I haven't been there. I'd love to go to Montana. It just sounds like a cool place. I don't know if I've been. I've heard it's pretty tough. I think Montana and Wyoming, I think maybe the only two last states I haven't been to.

Yeah. I used to live in San Diego. Okay. So I get it. California is so beautiful. Yeah. I mean, the geography, I mean, we have a lot of immigrants there, so a lot of different cultures and a lot of different foods. Whatever you want, pretty much any

time you can just go anywhere to get whatever cuisine you want. So do you speak at events? Do you do podcasts? What are you, as you're traveling, what are you doing? I mean I do all sorts of different things. I first started out speaking on legislation actually. So I should probably, I feel like I should preface with my story. Yeah, let's do that. Why don't we back up? Yeah. So maybe, you know, what might be helpful is if we give people just a sound bite, you

know, just like one minute, like what's your, not your whole story, but just a quick summary and then we can go back and begin from the beginning, because I'd love to hear it. Yeah. So I speak on behalf of my personal experiences as a detransioned woman. And I went through the process of a medical and social gender transition starting at the age of 12. And it spanned for pretty much the majority of my teenage years.

So from 12 years old, I was calling myself a boy. I named myself Leo. I told all my friends and family that I was going to live this way. And at 13 years old, I was put onto the medical process starting with puberty blockers and testosterone. At 15 years old, I underwent a double mastectomy to remove my breast surgically. And at 16 years old, less than a year later, I realized that I wanted to be a mother.

I wanted to become a woman and a wife to a husband one day. So I stopped transitioning. And at 17 years old, I decided that I wanted to speak I wanted to start speaking out because I started meeting a lot of other people who were just like me who had experiences quite like mine and I knew that there had to be kids out there who had been through the exact same thing and I wanted to be an advocate I wanted to be a voice and to help other people who wanted to speak out about about this.

Yeah, wow. Could you take me back to as far as this story begins? When did you begin experiencing? What would we call it gender dysphoria? I'd say I'd say I was about 12 years old when I started to think about it, like in that frame. But I, what it really comes down to, I think, was just normal adolescent feelings. I was going, I started puberty a little bit earlier, which I guess today is the norm because girls are just starting, they're starting

to develop younger and younger. I was about eight or nine when my breasts were starting to physically develop and come in. I started having to wear bras and I started getting like this newfound attention over my body from just about everybody in my life. I remember how embarrassing it was like having those conversations in the car with my mom about things like bras and puberty while like my older brothers and siblings are there and it's like, oh It pull me aside mom And also like in school like things that other kids would say about it like other like both boys and girls like talking about Like the changes in my body,

especially my chest or my butt or my hips. It was often very uncomfortable for me to deal with. And I hated that feeling that I was being looked at as, just that idea that I was being looked at as a body rather than like a whole human being. That was something that was kind of terrifying for me. I had a lot of friends growing up who were abused or assaulted and hearing their stories about it with all this attention that I was getting for my body. I was afraid. I was deathly afraid of that ever happening to me.

I was afraid, I was deathly afraid of that ever happening to me. And a lot of these ideas that I was getting around womanhood in general, from things that the girls around me would talk about, sometimes even older women or girls in my family would, it just felt like, with all all these rapid changes with puberty happening Like I I didn't really know if I was going to enjoy Being a woman ever because all I ever heard was just it's so difficult. It's so painful. Nobody had ever really talked about just how much of a blessing it really is to be a woman.

Like getting your period, giving birth, these sorts of things you're talking about? Yeah. And it was always like, it was always the negatives about those things that were focused on rather than like the gift of life that women are able to sustain and create with our bodies. Like that's so incredible. But as a kid, like that was never really emphasized to me. And I just, I wasn't super close to like any,

really any female role models in my life. Like I had like a pretty, I had a good relationship with my mom and my older sisters, but I didn't really consider myself particularly close to them or attached to them. I personally latched on a little bit more to one of my older brothers and in some ways my dad a little bit. But you could say that I was a bit of a tomboy, especially as I got older. In my early childhood, I was like a stereotypically girly girl.

Dad, he often tells me like, you never wanted to leave the house if you weren't like wearing like a big tutu skirt or like bright colors or without your dolls. But as I got older, I was kind of, I was bullied actually for those same things that I enjoyed. Those innocent feminine things by boys. And I mean, I was kind of an eccentric kid in a lot of ways. So I wanted to like mask myself and get rid of all those things that were bringing me

this attention and just become like a normal kid basically I mean the eyes of my peers almost like one is a you Yeah, I'm wrong But almost wanted to go backwards kind of rewind from when you started to develop developing to kind of go back before that. Yeah so I Feel like in some ways like the tomboyish personality that I was developing was kind of it was a natural course of things I started to enjoy just the company of boys, like their sense of humor a lot more. I felt like aligned with mine. Yeah.

Yeah. Men are great. But it was also like something that I forced a little bit as well, because I was afraid of being looked at differently. I was afraid of being looked at in a sexual light. I was afraid of being looked at as the, the stupider, weaker, smaller sex. I wanted to be tough. I want to be smart. I want to be cool, just like the boys.

I want to be cool like my big brothers, you know. My wife talks about she was a tomboy growing up, and she's so glad she didn't grow up during this period because she wonders what would have happened. But she talks about, you know, she played softball and she started developing breasts and she's like, oh, these stupid breasts. I can't swing the bat like I used to. And the frustrations I've heard that if men develop earlier, it can be a good thing for men. You know, if a boy develops very later, he might get picked on but that it's often a huge, I mean, femininity and being an adult woman is a huge responsibility. So for girls to be going through that younger and

younger. Have you looked into why that is? I mean, not a whole lot. I'm by no means an expert on it, but I've heard like there could be like environmental causes like plastics, the stuff in our foods, phytoxene or estrogens, playing a role in that. So did you, at this point, that everything you've just said makes so much sense, you know, and I'm so glad that you've said it, because I think sometimes, you know, people like myself and others look at the, I'd call it craziness that's being pushed on us,

that men can actually become women, that women can actually become men. Oh yeah, it's insanity. It is insanity. But what we often do, I think, is we take our frustration with that ideology and the propaganda, and sometimes we don't know how to kind of separate that from this beautiful individual who's in front of us

who had a similar experience that you did. But everything you just shared with me, that just makes so much sense. So at what point did you, yeah, how did you go from just feeling awkward about your body to deciding to, as you put put it present as a male? I Wouldn't really say it was it was natural at all. I started to

Have these feelings about my my body my body image I would often I Judged myself very harshly in a lot of ways. I kind of hated myself during that time period because I didn't really have any friends, I didn't really feel like I had anybody to look up to, I just felt like a total weirdo. And with my body especially, like as like my thighs were getting thicker, as my shoulders were getting bigger, I started developing more muscle. As my breasts were developing, I was like, I just, I was like, I feel like I look so weird. Like I feel so ugly. I feel like I look like a boy because I grew up in the age of thick and curvy, the hourglass or pear shaped body, right? The Kardashian body, the Brazilian butt lift and like all these cosmetic surgeries are starting to become a trend.

So in media and especially like on apps like Instagram and Snapchat, I would... And even like in art. I'm an artist, so I've always been like browsing communities that are like that are based around like digital illustration and character design and stuff. And there was always this one particular body type that I would see that I felt like I couldn't match up to. It's like, you know, I had a little bit more muscle.

I was a little bit more on the lean side. I had narrow hips. I was, I was just in my preteens, you know But I I would look at myself and think like why don't I look like that? Why don't I look like a woman like how I'm not a feminine I'm not a particularly I don't feel like a particularly feminine girl and I Don't like some things about being a woman and

There's also this like I don't look the way that I think a woman should. How am I ever going to be pretty? How am I ever going to be worth anything as a woman if I don't match up to any of these ideals at all? Maybe I would just be happier if I were a boy. I didn't believe that I actually was a boy, really, as much as I thought I wanted to be, until I started seeing these other posts on social media, um, from the transgender community. Um, so I started using Instagram at about 11, 12ish years old. I got my first phone like just before my 12th birthday. And a lot of my peers had gotten their phones

way earlier than I did, some as early as like first or second grade, in their first iPhone, crazy. And they were all like using social media way before I was. So I wanna see what I was missing out on. I wanna see like, what's everybody else up to? I want to do what they're doing and I want to connect with them because I, you know, I was kind of an outcast throughout a lot of my elementary and middle school years and I wanted to be friends with everybody. I just didn't really know how to. So I thought like this kind of gives me an avenue to do that in a comfortable manner.

that in a comfortable manner. So I started following my classmates and I also was looking at browsing and following communities and accounts just based off of my personal interests. So fan bases around anime, manga, cartoons that I liked, books that I read, comics, illustration, as I said, music. And within a lot of those communities, there were, these accounts would often use like LGBT hashtags for whatever reason. So I just started seeing like the algorithm naturally is like recommending me more posts that were just about that. But even within those communities,

there are people who identified as a part of the LGBT. Some of them consider themselves like gay, lesbian, bisexual, these other like crazy alternative labels like pansexual, demisexual, whatever that means. But the one thing that really caught my attention was the transgender and alternatively identified individuals. It was just such a, it was a very novel concept to me. I'd heard about it a few times throughout my childhood,

the idea of transgenderism. Sometimes I'd overhear my parents or adults talking about transgender celebrities, like Caitlyn Jenner. But I didn't really, it wasn't something I really cared much for until I was actually seeing it being presented to me through, through the apps that I was using and in such detail. And it wasn't just like, it wasn't just about like some celebrity who I didn't care about, right? These were real people. These were kids my age who were talking about their lifestyles and the feelings that they were struggling with. And as a girl who had always kind of

been a little bit awkward and struggled with socialization, it was kind of healing honestly watching very similar people who were also awkward, artistic, kind of outside- the box thinkers, struggling with their lives for so long and seeming to find the answer to their happiness and finding that identity. Because I didn't know where my identity came from. I was struggling to figure out what my role in the world would be, what I wanted to be, what I wanted out of my life.

So it gave me like this false sense of hope, just watching these people go on their journeys and at first like being bullied, struggling to find acceptance or their idea of acceptance from like their families and friends and then eventually their moms and dads or whoever else around them conceding and calling them by their preferred name and as the opposite sex, and how happy they seemed to be as they moved on, some of them even going on to taking hormones and the other medical interventions.

It was just so, so interesting and to me, so beautiful because it was talked about in such a positive light. Like it was some sort of miracle. Like it was, like it was these people finding their true selves. All of these, all these words and phrases they would use, um, I think ultimately are all euphemisms. And also like the artwork around that these people would create really just drew me in. So you're encountering these people on these apps. I missed maybe if you said you were encountering these people at your school or in real life? No, these are people who I had known completely online. And most of them, I wouldn't even really say that I knew them. I was just browsing through these communities and following them and kind of

lurking, not really ever talking to them, just it was like what I was seeing was powerful. Yeah what's tough is everyone puts their best self forward on Instagram and so that's clearly going to be the case with people who are undergoing these. And when you're a kid you don't really get that because that's all you see and you don't really think about it. I feel like as adults we don't even get that we have to be really intentional to realize this isn't reality I'm so yeah, I bet you well, I'm so glad my children don't have phones Yeah, it's probably best to keep it that way. Yeah, I would say to a parents like hmm It's hard to give blanket statements because I know people are in all sorts of situations

But it seems to me that the best thing you could do is consider homeschooling and then don't give your children phones. Oh yeah, absolutely. Maybe when they're like 14 or 15, you could get them a phone like a, this is what I'm doing. If you disagree, that's okay. But it seems to me that if you send your children to a regular school, there'll be a social leper

by the time they're eight, if you don't give them a phone. So to remove them- I mean, that's how it seems to be, but I don't really think that's actually how it is. And I think like, if somebody is really your kid's friend, they'll hang out like they'll just they'll just like get their parent to call you. But they'll talk over the phone. This is why I think that it would be easier for children if they were homeschooled

and they wouldn't have to even. Deal with that and they can play with other families who are also homeschooling. But but yes, social media is very bloody dangerous. Yeah I mean my advice to parents on this again I don't I don't I don't like giving like blanket advice either because everybody is in a different situation and I mean everybody's child in relationship with their child and their trust in them is different. I think that it's like it's most ideal to hold off on giving your phone, any technology, but especially a smartphone to your kid until they are much older, probably at least a pubescent

age, maybe start them with a computer, monitor them, teach them how to use it responsibly and about like the dangers of the internet. Have you heard of the Gab phone? It's put together by a group in Utah, I believe, probably started by Mormons. Mormons are always crushing these family-friendly, awesome things, but it's essentially a Android phone that's completely locked down.

There's nothing you can do about it, but it still has things like maps and text messages. You can send photos and things like this. What about games? I think they do have some games you can download But the point is that everything is? verified by gab Yeah, that feels like a nice training will step before these beasts of iPhones

Which are essentially just computers unlimited unrestricted into in your pocket. It makes me wonder like there's a lot of really crafty kids out there If anybody's like it Joeke in one of those gab phones, I'm sure I'm sure it's happened. If it's happened, yeah, they'd probably be out of business. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what would have it been like if your parents withheld a phone? How do you think you would have handled that? I would have been really upset about it for a long time. But I think as. As I've gotten older, um, I think, I think

I would have appreciated that as, as an adult. Cause yeah, as a kid, it sucks like not to be in on the latest seeing like what everybody else is doing, but the latest thing is often the case. Like the current thing is often not the best thing for kids. Yeah. All right. So you're watching these influencers as it were, or people sharing how happy they are. I wouldn't even call them influencers. It was just like real people.

Just being completely honest about their feelings. Just putting it all out there. And like the frankness was really, and like just hearing all about this and feeling like it was so similar to my own experiences growing up, I just found it so relatable. It's beautiful when someone helps you understand your own experience, you know? You feel less alone. It's a lovely thing when someone says this thing that you're going through and don't even know how to articulate, let me articulate it for you. Yeah

Fortunately, it was you got that half explanation and then you've got here's the solution and the solution was false The premise was false gender dysphoria I It's not that I don't think it's a real condition I think it's very real, but I think it's often a symptom of other issues in one's life. The most common denominators that I see with a lot of trans identified and detransioned or just gender dysphoric individuals is they almost always have one of two things, either family related trauma usually relating to one of their parents, often like their dad or maybe like even their mother being out of the picture for whatever reason,

having died or left or divorce, or they've been sexually assaulted, especially like early on in childhood. And I mean, I don't think it's very difficult at all to see how those things that affect how somebody views their own sex. When the male figure, when the most important either male or female figure in their life is not present or not functional, or I mean, if that part of their body has been compromised in such a way. compromised in such a way. Yeah, that makes sense. So at what point after watching these things did you decide what was the next step there? And did you talk to your parents about what you were

going through? I did eventually. It was kind of a slow thing over time. At first I was experimenting with these different labels around like my sexuality because there were a few times during my childhood, my adolescence, that I had like crushes on like my girl best friends or like on a female celebrity. And I had like sexual attraction to some women. But it was something that I didn't really, I didn't really care for over time. I now consider myself pretty much straight.

I want to get married to a man and I can't really have a family if I'm not with one. And I like, I want to give my kids like the best that they can and I think that's a household with a male figure and a female figure is the best for, it's the most ideal for a growing child. But I started to feel over time, like, I honestly don't really care about that. I don't feel like that's what really, what is causing these issues in my life. You know, I don't, sometimes I don't really feel

like I'm a hundred percent feminine or like I'm really all that much like the the girls and women around me. So maybe that means I'm something else. Maybe that means I'm, I went through all these crazy nonsense words like by gender, genderless, non-binary. And at one point, I actually desisted for a little bit before seventh grade. I started like calling myself a boy to some of my all-in friends. And then once I went into, once I started going to school my seventh grade year, I stopped thinking about it because I had other things occupying my mind like coursework, art, making friends. But I had a crush on this boy who was a grade level older than

me, kind of like the bad boy type. It was a good thing that it didn't work out actually because I remember the year afterward when I was in eighth grade and he went on to high school he was actually ended up being like put on house arrest for and kicked off a football team for, I can't remember what it was. It was something crazy. But I remember like being so heartbroken when it turned out like he, this boy was just toying with my feelings. He ended up like going with having another girlfriend, right? Um, and it was shortly after that I started thinking about, um, like my gender identity and my discomfort around my body again. When you were telling your close friends that you were a boy, it sounds like you said that up until this point, right?

Mm. How did they respond to that? And was transgenderism something spoken about at school such that they were open to that? No, actually. So the school that I went to, it was kind of like a smaller school out in the country, a little bit cliquey even. So I already didn't have like the closest of friends. So most of the people that I knew in person within my grade level were actually like,

they're pretty mean about it when I talked about it with them. They would push back, not necessarily like out of any excuse me, out of any personal concern for me. It was just like, that's really weird of you. Don't do that. They're often very mean about it in the way that they would target me. I remember throughout eighth grade, these two girls would just torture me. They'd be like, oh, you're a boy? Why don't you act like it?

Don't be with us. Why are you friends with us? Go hang out with the boys, go play sports. And they would do some really mean stuff, erasing my drawings off of the blackboard, just telling me these awful, degrading things to me. I'm sorry. So it's middle school.

It's middle school. That's just how kids that age are. I know that's true in one sense, but in another sense, that is a very awful thing to be rejected by your peers at such a young age. It's like, just because people do act like idiots in middle school doesn't mean the trauma isn't real. And like yeah, obviously like it's not based in reality. But I mean for a lot of people, it was just the fact that I was presenting myself differently, like cutting my hair short and like looking awkward. Like they would poke fun at me for that. And I feel like in a way it kind of

reinforced this mentality that I had actually, this confidence that I had in this idea that I was actually going to be a boy, that I was a this idea that I was actually going to be a boy, that I was a boy, that I was going to prove them wrong. Because it was like, it only made me want to, it only made me want to double down on it. Because one day I was confident that I would look like a boy and they would treat me like one. And eventually that did come true actually. How did your parents take you cutting off your hair? And by the way, if that's too personal a question, I want to respect your parents, but how did

they handle that? How did they process it with you? I mean, they knew that I was like a little bit of a tomboy, right? So they saw like these changes like me like wearing my boy clothes Cutting my hair like a little bit shorter each time I went to the hairdresser They didn't really think anything of it. It was just like, oh, she's just having a phase Yeah, as most parents would think I think They were very shocked when I

When I told them, I'm transgender, I'm your son now. I wrote a letter to them actually. I told them that I had something very important to say to them, but I wasn't comfortable with saying it face to face to them because I was nervous as to how they would react. So I wrote a letter to them. You were 12 at this point? Yeah, I was 12, probably about like a month before my my 13th birthday. I wrote a letter to them just like detailing my

thoughts and my feelings. It was June of 2017. I remember I chose June because it was, I think it was June 1st that I wrote the letter and had them read it because it was the first day of LGBT Pride Month. And then how did you give them the letter? I just left it on the dining room table and let them read it and just kind of gave them that space. Were you in the room? What did you take off?

I took off. I was I was very I was very skittish. Actually, I was very afraid of confrontation at the time. So it was like kind of kind of a big leap for me just kind of putting myself outside of my comfort zone. Did that feel good to finally claim that as it were? Yeah, it was nerve-racking, but I felt relieved that they... I feel like saying they were accepting gives the impression that they wanted it for me. They didn't necessarily want me to go through any of this. They really didn't. But. At the time, they thought like it was very

mature of me to be like trying to explore my my identity and talk to them about something so personal and to how to so anxiety inducing for me. Right. You came home from school and did you sit down with them at that point and process it with them?

Yeah, after after. Would you mind bringing your mic down just a touch? Just pull it down. Yeah, perfect. So I can see you better. Yeah, that must have been that must have been scary. I would imagine coming to the coming to the door, entering the house, wondering how they would have taken that letter. Yeah, I mean, especially because like within the community of these other trans identified kids, many of them came from homes out where they are being neglected, physically, emotionally or being abused, like some as baddies like being beaten or like sexually assaulted by

their parents or by their caregivers. And a lot of them had all these stories about being kicked out of the house or the abuse getting worse because their parents not taking the news very well. And I knew my mom and dad loved me, and I knew that nothing like that would ever really happen. But it still kind of put this tension there that shouldn't have been. So I was very glad that they didn't react the way that things didn't go as bad as they could have. They were very cautious though. Excuse me.

You're fine. They were cautious. But they were very cautious. Yeah. They didn't really know what to do about this because it was a very unique situation for them. I'm the youngest of all of their kids and they had their struggles. They had different struggles with each of my siblings. And I was probably the most difficult out of every single one of the kids that they had to raise,

just in general. Like I was diagnosed with learning disorder. I was diagnosed with ADHD at a young age, medicated for it. The treatment for it never really worked out. I struggled in school, not because I was stupid or anything. I just didn't really apply

myself to my academics because I didn't really see a purpose in it. And I had struggles with socializing with other kids and pretty much everybody in my life, like any sort of communication was very, very difficult for me. Is this a constant among transitioners as well in that they have maybe autism or learning disability? Yeah. So there are a lot of comorbidities associated with gender dysphoria. And I think the most common of which is autism.

In some surveys and studies, it's upwards of like 30% of these patients being diagnosed somewhere on the spectrum. And I don't know if I am autistic. I'm like 99% sure that I am, but I haven't received like a diagnosis because I kind of missed the opportunity to when I was a kid. My preschool teachers, my preschool and kindergarten teachers actually thought that I was autistic. So they told my mom and dad that it's probably best if they try and get a screening for me to get a diagnosis. But the physician that I had at the time was like, oh, no way. Like, there's no way she's on the spectrum. Just immediately dismissing the idea like it was something completely stupid without really any effort to diagnose me.

And all I should probably get into a little bit more later. I had I had I end up having my first screening at, I think like starting at 16. It was like a set of different screenings over like a course of a few months. And they end up telling me like, no, you're you're probably it's not it's they didn't give me a clear cut answer. It's like, well, it's it's it's a real possibility, but we're not going to give you a diagnosis at the time because like, um, it happened, it happened, um, just after ID transition. So they were saying like, well, all these,

like all the stress that you're having and your difficulties with socializing, communicating, um, it's probably from your depression. It's probably from your social anxiety. It's probably because of your gender dysphoria, which really made me pretty mad actually, because all these issues kept circling back to my gender, right? Even after I stopped caring about it, even after I was trying to return to life as a normal woman. Yeah. Can I go- So, I mean, because I was in my later adolescence, and now I'm an adult woman, it's going to be, if I want to get a diagnosis, it's going to be very difficult and there's not really

going to be any resources for me. And there's not really a point anymore because I feel like I still experience some autistic symptoms on the daily that are difficult to deal with, but I've kind of, I've learned to like mask while socializing. I've learned to socialize just by doing the work that I'm doing now. And I don't really know if it would really benefit me at all, which sucks because I feel like I feel like if I was if I were diagnosed and or treated much earlier in my life, like starting an early childhood, I would have had a much better time with I think I feel like I would have had an easier time with going through puberty

and like learning to socialize with other kids my age and just like develop my identity in a way that was healthy without having all this other crazy crap happening. So after your conversation with your parents who just read the letter, they were very loving. Did you feel tremendous relief at that point? And then did you decide to go all in on presenting as a male? I would think that would be the permission you needed to then fully embrace that. That was pretty much how it went.

And what did that look like? My mom and dad decided that in the next few days afterward that they were going to start sending me to a therapist within Kaiser, our healthcare provider, because they didn't really feel like they were equipped to handle this with me because were equipped to handle this with me because it was something that was beyond their understanding. It was really very difficult for them to understand. And they wanted to, they knew like, this is something that was related to my mental health and social struggles at the time.

And just like trying to find my place in the world So they want to find like a professional who could help me through this Yeah, that's a completely reasonable response We can't we're not sure if we know how to help you but we will let's try to find someone who can and What was that like? So there this therapy? I? Wouldn't even call it that yeah, I wouldn't even call it that. I wouldn't call it therapy at all. Just real quick, when you went to therapy for the first time, were you hoping that they might be a what we, I mean, did you think you needed therapy? Were you hoping it would help in some way or did

you think it was a waste of time? I honestly just thought that I needed medical intervention. I really just wanted to start medically transitioning because that was what I thought what the solution was. And I could see that this would basically segue into that because I was now getting involved with the healthcare system through mental healthcare. It sounds, something sounds like so manipulative about that, I feel like. through mental health care. Something sounds like so manipulative about that, I feel like. But that's basically what these kids,

the idea that these kids are given all nine. It's basically, if you want it, you can have it. And that's exactly how it was with therapists, eventually with the physicians. But during these appointments... How long did you see this therapist for? Well, the first one I saw for probably only about a month before he was either like kicked out of the Kaiser or he like moved elsewhere.

So not for very long. And I never really felt like I really had any personal connection with any of these psychologists who I was seeing over the years so it was hard to connect with them and to talk about these really difficult issues in my life. But they would have me separate from my parents. My mom and dad would just wait outside in the waiting room while they're having these appointments with me. I think at some point they asked me, do you wanna have your parents in the room? If not, we can have total privacy.

It gives the kid the idea that, well, if that's the case, then maybe there's some things that I wouldn't want my mom and dad to hear. And especially with my relationship with my parents, it wasn't bad by any means, but I wasn't super close to them at all. I was very secretive throughout a lot of my childhood, actually. I was very evasive because I didn't really have that trust established or closeness established with them. So this kind of,

this basically served like further disassociate from them. A chasm widened between you and your parents even greater. Yeah, and my mom and dad were getting frustrated because they could see like, okay, like she's going to therapy. She's not getting better though. She still has like really no friends in school. I had just like gotten my phone taken away for something and I was without a phone for like eight months. So most of my eighth grade year I had like, I had, I had, or throughout most of the summer, I really had no connection to the outside world. So I was just, I was super depressed and isolated

and nothing was really going on in therapy for me. And my mom and dad could see that, but they weren't allowed to intervene or like to move the course forward. So eventually they started meeting one-on-one with my psychologist and they were like, okay, let's talk. Why does my daughter want to medically transition

at this age? Why do we have to do this now? What's the rush? Why are we having a kid do this? Where is she gonna? Real quick, what was your therapist saying in therapy about you transitioning? Nothing, Nothing really.

Like, it would, it, it, it, like, I would do like a screening, like a, like a questionnaire. And we would talk about basically nothing because my parents weren't there in the room to move anything along. I would just talk to them about how like was isolated, how I had no connection to the outside world and they would kind of just give me a blank stare, asking me about my gender. Yeah, I feel the same way. Still feel like a boy. Still not happy with myself.

And nothing would really happen during those first few months. So my mom and dad, they were like, let's get things moving. Not on my transition, but let's start seeing some changes in her life. Why aren't we seeing any, why is she not getting better? How do we deal with these things? How do we help her? Why are we starting on the course of medicalization

so young? What are the risks? And what are the chances that she's gonna end up regretting this later in life? And what if she does? What if we do? All reasonable questions, which were immediately shot down, of course. Is that what they say today?

As they were engaging with a therapist, those objections were just dismissed or shot down? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the response back basically was, you know, like children, she knows exactly what she wants. Children understand their gender identity from a young age. It's innate basically is the idea. Oh gosh, that makes me angry. Sorry, keep going. And well, it's actually, it's so conflicting, they call it fluid, right? But they also say that it's like a constant. It's something that, like a soul almost. But they were like, it's very unlikely

actually that your child is going to regret this because I in these studies which they didn't show them these studies It was it's less than than one or two percent they said that of cases of people regretting or detransitioning It's more likely that Your child is could become Suicidal if you deny her this treatment. They basically give the false dead daughter, live son, live transgender son premise to these parents who are dealing with this with their kids. That's exactly what they did with my mom and dad. And when... I don't blame my mom and dad for saying this, not one bit.

I think they were doing the best with what they were given, which wasn't really anything at all. They weren't given the support or information that they really needed. And they're being told bullcrap from someone they've been told to trust. They're told that their child could die basically. They start talking. They really zeroed in on those suicide statistics within the transgender community. And they basically manipulate it to say like, this is the only cure for your kid.

All right. You're going to have to lead me and our listeners through how one quote unquote transitions. Like, I don't understand the medical side and then the surgery side. Could you lead us from how that began and what the effects were and what that was like? Yeah, so there's two elements of transitioning. There's a social transition, which is like changing your name, either like in socialization or legally, either like in socialization or legally, changing the way you present yourself, like through your hair,

like stereotypical clothing of the opposite sex and such, like changing your mannerisms and stuff. And then there is the medical side of things, which for me, what that entailed was the puberty blockers, the testosterone, and eventually the surgery down the line. And so I started with the puberty blockers at 13. I was probably about halfway through my eighth grade year. And it took less than, I think like half a year between like my first conversation with a therapist

to getting my first injection of those blockers. And when I was first referred to a endocrinologist actually, me and my mom were told, no, we're not going to administer the hormones, but we could have you on blockers for a year. I think was the response. Basically saying like, it wasn't like a solid no, but it was like a, let's wait a year on this,

because apparently he said like, you're not, I don't remember this, this is my, when my mom recounts. Yeah, the doctor. She said that, he said that I wasn't transition enough, whatever that might mean, right? You weren't transitioning enough? Yeah, I mean, it's all, I don't know if it was just like-

Like fast enough or? I guess, and I think like it was based just on my social transition. Like I was calling myself a boy. I was wearing like boy clothes. I guess it was, it's all based on stereotypes. Who knows what it was. But nobody had ever really pushed back on the idea of me being a boy.

It was just, it was just, it was only that really that one doctor who even remotely pushed back and that was just way too year. What difference will that make? Right? I think he cited like brain development concerns mostly. Did that frustrate you that you had to wait longer? I was sobbing during like halfway through that appointment because I genuinely believed like I was being denied the care that I needed.

And there are no other doctors in that point in my life who were saying, who were like directing me, who were guiding me to sanity at all. Who were being like a rock for me or my mom and dad. But very quickly after- What was your understanding of the surgery that would happen? Like as your 12, 13 year old brain was trying to fathom that, what did you think that involved?

The surgery. I mean, that's that's a little further down the line. Oh, sorry. So what am I? Maybe I misunderstood something. So you went from hormone blockers and testosterone? Yeah. So I was immediately referred. The gender clinician or psychologist, I think, just immediately referred me to another doctor. People often accuse like my mom and dad of like doctor shopping. But what happened was that the psychologist who referred us to these endocrinologists

was just like, okay, let's send you to another one. Like just that quick. Yeah. But yeah, after like an appointment or two with that second endocrinologist, we signed off on the waivers. I was given the consent forms for the blockers and the testosterone. Right, I'm sorry, that's right.

He didn't think you had social transitioned enough in order to be now taking this medication. Yeah. You got referred to a now taking this medication. Yeah. You got referred to a couple of other doctors. Immediately, like, immediately afterward. Okay. And then eventually you found a doctor who was willing to do it. Yeah.

Um, and it was really rough starting on them. It was, I'm not exaggerating when I say that I was pretty much in an artificially induced menopause. And you have to think about, you have to think about this. I was 13 years old. I was in eighth grade and my body's endocrine system was basically just completely shut down. No sex hormone production at all. I had my last period for a few years until after I stopped the testosterone. It was very heavy and eventually no mends anymore, not even a semblance of a cycle,

which was already irregular for me because I was so young. I had only been having periods for about a year by this point in time. And I started experiencing the physical symptoms of having my hormones blocked. I was experiencing hot flashes. I was uncontrolled, like sweating and itching. You were 13 or 12, just to remind people at home. Yes. Yeah. And I was very lethargic. I didn't really have a whole lot of energy or motivation or really any feelings throughout the day. I just felt kind of numb.

So, of course, I wanted to escape this. I hated this feeling. And I thought like, there's no going back from this. So and I already had this idea in my mind that I was going to go on hormones anyways. So the next course of action was hormones about a month later. I had to take injections at home every week for the rest of my life if I were to continue this. And that, the switch from having no hormones at all in my body to all of a sudden taking like

large male doses of sex hormones as a 13-year-old girl was insane. It was crazy. Like the change in my mood was almost immediate. Like there is that element, of course, of like me being excited, the gender euphoria or whatever, right? Of feeling affirmed in my choices, in my identity, being on what I thought was the right path at the time. And eventually telling my older friends about it

who were in high school at this point in time, or my online friends about this, and being congratulated. I thought it was a huge step in my life, a huge step forward. And the physical changes and the emotional changes were very, came very quickly. Like I immediately felt like a lot more confidence. I started developing a bit of a competitive streak with the boys my age. And you said this is overnight.

Pretty much. Pretty much. And one of the more difficult consequences of me being on it, behavioral consequences of it was definitely the sex drive. Okay. Just went through the roof or what? Yeah, absolutely. Like I was already going through puberty, right? So it was already kind of high. And all of a sudden, like it was just uncontrollable.

and all of a sudden, like, it was just uncontrollable. I was experiencing this at 13 to 16 years old, and it got me into some pretty dangerous situations. It basically made me right for the picking by sexual predators on the internet because, you know, I was a very lonely kid. I had, like, these really strong feelings at the time that I didn't really have, like, any real male guidance on how to deal with, right?

So I was very vulnerable. And if you think about it like this, I mean, women had these instincts that are, they have these sexual instincts that are self-preserving to help them pick like the best like life partner and to avoid like any, any danger that, that was gone. A good father for their children, someone who's nurturing and strong and protective. Yes, that was, that was all gone. So it was, it got me into some pretty, pretty horrible

situations over the years and thank, thank God nothing physical ever happened to me, but there were a few times when people like adult men almost had met up with me. So I was in a lot of danger during that point in time and they don't address that during the consultations of course. They say like, oh you're gonna you'd experience like things like your hairline will change, you're gonna have more body hair, you have more muscle. They talk about it like mostly in a positive light and they say like, oh, and you're gonna have a heightened sex drive. They don't talk about what that actually entails. And these are women that were taught that these were women that were prescribing me. It was a woman that was prescribing me this medication. So of course, there's not going to know what that's actually like. It was just a horrible set of circumstances. Anyways, so the physical changes. The first was the change in my voice.

That was very rapid onset and very, very sudden and very dramatic actually. I guess I have my dad's voice genes because he's got a pretty deep voice. And by the end of my eighth grade year, so did I. I mean, it was just like, I think I started hormones like in March of that year, my school year ended in May. So it was very, very quick.

And people were noticing right away, like something's not right. She started sounding like a boy. She started were noticing right away, like something's not right. She started sounding like a boy. She started to look a little bit like a boy. She started to like develop some muscle. Something's up. The people, I mean, my teachers, the school staff,

and my peers were all noticing, but I hadn't really, to most of them, like, I was still Chloe. Like, I hadn't really told them what was going on. So it was very jarring for them. Like, I can't imagine, like, from an outside perspective, like, just like seeing one of your classmates one day, like, start to like more and more like the opposite sex with no explanation.

Yeah. I can't, I just can't believe that none of my teachers, like, like had me like step aside and like talk to me like, what's going on? Like none of the adults like stepped in. They just, they just watched from the sidelines. Shame on them. They were probably terrified, lose their job if they, in any way, question it. But I mean, they were, they were like that in, in a lot of ways, just in general with my education. Like I had like a specialized plan for my education in place

that they just refused to abide by, because they were lazy. They didn't care. And I was like, I was an outsider. I came to that school in like fifth grade, and I wasn't like playing any sports or anything. I wasn't one of the good kids, right? So they didn't wanna to deal with me.

And there was one experience that I had. I found that the bullying started to heighten a little bit after I started the hormones. He was like, I mean, kids can be cruel. They see like one odd kid out and it's like, gotta reinforce the social order, right? And there was this one kid who had been bullying me throughout the school year. I remember he was like this wannabe, hardcore kid.

And he was just awful to me. Like he would make a lot of comments on, like, my body or what I was wearing, sometimes, like, asking, like, very sexually charged questions. And sometimes, like, he would, like, physically assault me, like, spitting on me, like, throwing stuff at me, tripping me. And eventually, one day, he really stepped over the line and he sexually assaulted me in the classroom. This happened and it was crowded.

Like there were, it was a full classroom. It was before school, all the other kids were just like playing around in there, like finishing up their homework. The teacher was there. Nobody noticed as this kid went up to me, looked me in the eyes, groped and squeezed my breasts. Nobody did anything.

He just walked away. And I just stood there and shocked him with fear because what am I supposed to do? Like, how do I react to that? That really scarred me. There were no bruises left behind. There was no physical evidence of it. So it's not like I could just like go up

to like a staff member and say like he like he hurt me. And with how poorly they were treating me already, like how could I trust them with the fact that I got hurt by one of their students? I kept it to myself, but that trauma and that fear of being taken advantage of again, of being recognized as female even, of having this part of my body just being there, that stayed with me for years. I went into, that was when I decided like, I'm gonna start hiding my breasts, like it's time that I start hiding this part of my body so this never happens again and nobody ever thinks that I'm a woman ever again and eventually I'm gonna get surgery. It's gonna be gone. It's no longer a part of me. I do not want it there. I started using this compression device called a binder to hide my breasts but I never told anybody what happened to me for years. And it took a while for me to process, to even recognize as a sexual assault, because I was in this headspace of, I'm a guy.

Like stuff like that isn't supposed to happen. Guys aren't supposed to have breasts in the first place. And I'm not gonna be taken seriously if somebody, if I tell anybody about this, so why should I? somebody if I tell anybody about this, so why should I? Yeah. I'm so sorry that happened. I know I said that earlier and I know you're not playing the victim, but that shouldn't have happened to you.

I'm sorry it did. No, no. I mean, I don't really, I wouldn't say that today. I'm affected by the trauma of it really. I mean, my breasts are gone. So it's not like I really could be. But this was the thing, right? You said your femininity and your growing into womanhood, you were afraid of how men would look at you, that they would mistreat you, objectify you, not see you as the person you were.

And eventually it did happen. And I didn't feel like I had anybody to confide in. I would have told my parents if it weren't for the fact that they would eventually bring up to school and I knew that if I were to go to school, it could have gotten me into further trouble. It could have. I didn't know if like, what if they ended up talking to this boy and they told him, knock it off. He would know he would know yeah They might just like give him a slap on the wrist and have him come back to school later He could do something worse to me. I Didn't want to deal with that. I didn't want to go through through the trouble of that

But it I Don't really feel connected that situation anymore, but it makes me so angry because I feel like it's a reflection of how schools in general handle sexual assault and the safety and wellbeing of their students. It's such a shame. Yeah. So you're getting bullied, you're also getting congratulated. That must be a weird experience. Yeah.

It was very, very jarring. Um, it was mostly like most of the other praise came from, um, online or from my friends who were already in high school. So they were at different school. So it was like kind of like physically disconnected for me, but most of like the, the bullying and mistreatment that I got was from school. Yeah. What did your parents say to your siblings and how did your siblings engage you during this time? Well, my older sisters, they were pretty supportive throughout this time. I find that between the sexes in general, there tends to be a divide in how this issue gets treated.

But my older brothers... Well, one of them wasn't really in the picture because... Well, both of my older brothers were in the Navy at this time. And one of them I didn't really grow up a whole lot with. But the other, I remember that summer, that summer after my eighth grade year of middle school, I was in a hotel room somewhere in Southern California, or like somewhere in the Bay with my mom and dad, right? And when he called, I said hi to him. And when he heard my voice, he... I remember

that there was those few moments of silence. And he was like, Mom, why does your voice sound like that? Is she sick? Is she okay? And she explained to him what was going on. He paused again. And he finally said, don't you know that most kids regret that? And I remember being so uncomfortable in that moment. I just like immediately dismissed it as he's so ignorant. He doesn't know what he's talking about. He has no idea. I was so uncomfortable that I just left the room and went straight to the

bathroom. I don't know what my mom said after that. But from then on, I did have a bit of a strained relationship with him. I didn't really communicate with him because he was in the Navy and I didn't really... I don't know if I had his number at the time, but I... Like... He came home, he came back home like a few years later and I think this was like during like the post-op phase for me actually. He couldn't, throughout those, throughout the years, he just couldn't stand to see me like that.

It was especially rough on him because it seemed like nobody else in the family really understood like, And he couldn't, throughout those, throughout the years, he just couldn't stand to see me like that. It was especially rough on him because it seemed like nobody else in the family really understood like just how grave this was. I don't think, I don't think that was the case necessarily. I feel like my mom and dad didn't always feel like they had any other choice. And they never, they never truly believed that I was transgender or a boy or anything like that. But they felt like they were forced into this by my doctors. And it was something that I think was creating like a big strain on my family, for sure.

Especially with my relationships with everybody. Because over the years, I just became more and more closed off in the world. I was literally living a fantasy every day. How could I not? I was wearing a mask every day. And I was crumbling under fantasy every day. How could I not? I was wearing a mask every day, and I was like crumbling under the weight of doing that, of having to rely on injections every day, of putting on this compression device or after surgery,

having to bandage and and dress my my my my wounds it was I I was living in lie every day and whether or not I consciously realized it that's just how it was but there was for a while I thought I was happy I thought that this was the truth I thought this was how things were meant to be. And you could say that I had a bit of a honeymoon phase with my transition at different steps, but especially with starting the hormones and my body and face and voice masculinizing

and the social dynamics changing, going, starting to go to a new school as basically like an entirely new human being. It was like a bit of a rebirth. I was rebuilding my life. I was no longer just that awkward, weird, nerdy girl. I was starting fresh as a boy. I was making friends. I was... Were you worried that people knew you were a girl? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. Was that a constant? Just wondering? I mean, during like the first year or so of high school, it was like, it was a big fear of mine, for sure. There were a few times when I was outed to some of my friends behind my back. And I was afraid. Like, I went to JRTC, Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps,

which basically like a... Like a... It was an Army program... at my school. And this course counted as like an alternative PE course. So that meant like I didn't have to like change in the locker rooms at my school with all the boys. And I purposely took that class mostly for that reason, because I was afraid of like somebody like recognizing me

or like seeing like that I was female and of the sexual assault repeating itself. That really scarred me. That really affected a lot of the decisions that I made over the years actually, including my surgery down the line. But I had a few, I knew I was putting myself in potentially dangerous situations.

I was still a female. I was still very cognizant of that. I still had female genitalia in parts. So if anybody knew, and like, if I was caught in the bathroom with somebody dangerous, who knew, who knows what they could have done to me? And luckily nothing ever happened. Eventually, what they could have done to me and luckily nothing ever happened. Eventually high school boys bathrooms.

Gross. Horrible. That's why I apologize when you used our bathroom. I'm sorry. I'm never going to step foot in one of those things ever again. I hope. But eventually it was fun. Not really a win for a woman.

It's funny that that's become like the marker of this movement where it's like, now I get to use men's bathrooms. Which are disgusting, it turns out. It's not the greatest part of it. Eventually I got used to it though, but the differences in socialization, there is like a bit of a learning curve there

because like I wasn't raised as a boy, right? So I had to like learn like the etiquette and like how guys work. And eventually like, I mean, I'll admit, I had some fun times during those days and I learned, it was very interesting some of the things I learned. Honestly, like there's no friendship, like a friendship between two guys. And like, like there's, there's no friendship, like a friendship between two guys and like,

but just like, even though I was, I'm obviously never actually going to be a guy. It was so, it was so interesting and honestly so fun to like, kind of like get a glimpse into the dynamic. It was so, it was, it was kind of cool. And it's also giving me like a new perspective on the struggles that men face socially, just in general. You guys have it tough in some ways. Like you guys definitely have it easier in some ways.

But there are a lot of expectations and responsibilities placed onto men. That I started to learn like, I'm not fit for this. Um, I found it, I personally found it kind of isolating. Um, cause as a guy, like you're not, you don't really have as much room to talk about your, your feelings or like your personal struggles and you're kind of just like, a lot of time you're kind of just expected to, I think like, like just leave it inside and deal with it on your own. Um,

Yeah. And what ends up happening is teenage boys get a taste of beer and then they get drunk. And it's really quite sad because that's when they feel like they can share their hearts with their other friends. Yeah. Yeah, I yeah, it led to some pretty dark places for me because I didn't really I didn't really feel like I had anywhere to go. And even like if I, like if somebody told me like I could confide in them with my feelings, and everybody felt like they really understood, like even like my own therapist, it was like,

nobody understands like what this is really like. It feels like I have like the whole weight of the world on my shoulders, the way that I'm living living and nobody can really help me. And you didn't know another lady who was presenting as a fella during this time, except online. I mean, I knew, I eventually like, I started like, like after my sophomore year of high school, I started seeing like a lot of girls who were, who were starting to transition to a male or not, like non-binary identity. But I was the only one who was as far along as I was. It was a unique experience and I couldn't always relate to those kids. In fact, I actually got into a lot of spats in the transgender community while I was transitioning because there's a lot of infighting. There's a lot of ideological disputes.

No, but the ideology is so inconsistent and there's so many like little like rabbit holes like like sub communities It's like it's it's it's chaos. It's a mess so I didn't really associate much with the community all that much, but I want to go back to like the Some of the struggles of malehood that I was talking about there where there's like The responsibilities I can deal with the the loneliness the isolation that I think a lot of young men and even like a lot of older men probably experience.

Um, and, um, I thought like we're transitioning. Obviously it was going to affect my dating pool, but nobody had ever really told me that I, I just thought of myself as like, you know, like I, I was going to affect my dating pool, but nobody had ever really told me that. I just thought of myself as like, you know, like I was transitioning to a male identity, right? But I still was mainly attracted to men. So I just considered myself like a gay trans guy. I mean, the dating pool for gay men, especially like boys in high school, it's already very narrow. But for a guy who's not actually a guy, that's like,

that's like a needle in a haystack. Like the people who are attracted to me, um, like I said earlier, like I was getting into a lot of trouble, like on like online was like actual, like, like people like preying on me. Um, because I felt like it was the only place place like I could like get like any real attention like affection but there was like there were like some people at school also who were like older and like really really creepy and It was The few guys who were attracted to me were like usually kids who were like drug use or like stoner kids or like just like Not good influences for me to be around.

So I really didn't have any interest. And I found that incredibly frustrating. But interestingly enough, if you look at some photos of me from back then, I wasn't a bad looking kid by any means. I was pretty cute, a little short for a boy. But there were a lot of girls who actually, who took interest in me. And it was very, very interesting,

the change in dynamics because a lot of them were very creepy actually. And I found that I actually experienced like more sexual harassment and assault from either sex while I was presenting as a guy. And I think that a big part of that is that like, people don't really think about men's emotions and comfort nearly as much as they do with women.

So it's just like, a lot of these girls had very entitled mentalities. Like they would like, someone would even like go around like stalk me, like taking videos of these girls had very entitled mentalities. Like they would like someone would even like go around like stalk me, like taking videos of me or like taking pictures. Some even like trying to like force me like hug them or like kiss them. Yeah. So it was very uncomfortable. But I mean, it was different now because it wasn't like it wasn't like traumatic for me

because it was just like I'm a dude now. Like everybody thinks I'm a dude. What are they going to do? Like what are they going to do? I'm not really, I don't really feel like I was in any danger anymore. So in a way I kind of did escape like the, like the, the experience that I had previously in eighth grade. Um, but also like on the flip side of things, I had a lot of male friends who, um, ended up like being like falsely accused of things like sexual assault or harassment by girls. And they would get into some real trouble because of these false accusations. Um, a lot of them would have to end up like moving schools or like entire like neighborhoods because of these false accusations. A lot of them would have to end up like moving

schools or like entire like neighborhoods because of it. And eventually I started thinking like, oh crap, like what if this happens to me? Like this is a very real possibility. I hang out, I still hung out with like a lot of women and a lot of them were very interested in me. So, I mean, something like I could easily have gotten into trouble if somebody really, really hated my guts. That was like a real fear that I had for a long time and that I still kind of have. The odds of me being falsely accused of sexual assault as a woman are obviously much lower But like that like seeing like those experiences like watching like what my friends what my male friends went through with that Has left its mark on me for her to come Yeah, when I started traveling I had a rule almost immediately that I would never travel alone with a female in a car

And I felt weird doing that because it felt like I was almost accusing them You know like you're you might do this against me. And of course, that wasn't it. It was just being preventative. But I'd go give a talk and a young woman might come up and I had to think, oh, gosh, I got to get out. I got to get out of this room so there's people around. Because, yeah, one accusation like that.

And good luck. You can say as much as you want, but. Yeah. You guys say as much as you want, but. Yeah, I. You guys have it tough. I'm glad I'm not a man, honestly. You know, I'm glad you are as well. As much as I want to be back in the day. Yeah.

And as much as as much as I love men, as much as I appreciate the men in my life. Yeah. I like being a girl. I like that you're a girl, too. I mean, I mean, men do horrible things just like women do. And you know, you had that experience of that fella groping you. Sorry, fella, fella. He probably never felt like kind of groping you, unfortunately, in the class.

That's tragic. And I think for men, like we have this protective instinct. And so if you hear about a woman being hurt, you really, really want to hurt that. Yeah, yeah. I was, I was scared of like activating that same instinct in like my dad or like any of like the men around me, because I was, I was, I didn't want to make anybody upset. I didn't want to get anybody in trouble. I just, I just wanted to be okay. So back to the protective instinct. So if you hear about a mate for a fella hurting a girl, that's one thing.

But if he actually did it and gets away with it because he said he was falsely accused, like you want to hit him all the more. So I think there is this sense even in men where it's like we're not really... You hear about someone being accused of something, it's very difficult to kind of vindicate them even if they... Like what happened with Russell Brand recently, who was accused of sexual abuse and came out said this is all lie. Now I don't know. We can't know what really went on. But it's such a complex issue. Yeah. It's hard to argue. Unless you were in the room, how would you know? Unless it was on film, how do you know? Yeah. And just the fact that there are women out there who are so manipulative, who are so willing to find a means to an end that they will take advantage of a very real issue

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Michael's Lent. That's Exodus 90 dot com slash Matt to join us for St. Michael's Lent, starting August 15th. Yeah. So you're in grade what at this point? Nine ten. So going into yeah, about about grade grade ten. I know just real quick, I would have to think that if someone was transitioning socially and then what's the other word medically? Medically, yes.

That it must seem like the light is just at the end of the tunnel. In other words, there's all these steps to go through. And with every step, you do feel a bit of euphoria. That makes sense. Now I'm being accepted and now my voice is deepening. And now all I need is this thing. And you but you get to the end of the rainbow and there's just a pot of shit. Yeah. So what a goal. I think pot of shit is very succinct

for something like this, because it really becomes a new normal. And. It's it's not great. It's not a great experience. It's not like the sunshine and rainbows that the trans community paints it out to be. Eventually, it just become just becomes

another part of your life. It becomes mundane, these injections every week and whatever else you're doing. And then the complications start rolling in. Okay. I was probably about like a year in to taking testosterone, a year and a half maybe, when I started noticing that like I was having these issues with my urinary tract.

Like every, at a few points, it was every other month to every month that I was having either infections or infection-like symptoms, and it started to really escalate. I started having bits of blood in my urine, and it was terrifying. And it was terrifying. But it was also so embarrassing. It was like, am I gonna have to like see a gynecologist

for this? Like, but I'm a guy, like I'm gonna be in the waiting room for an OBGYN, like oh. And it's so, it was also like, I was scared of going to the doctor. I was scared of what they might say, of the possibility that I might have to be taking off of the hormones for this, because I really,

I didn't wanna give that up. I didn't want to give up my more masculine body and the development of my body in just like a more male-looking form. I don't wanna give up the feelings that I had, the energy that I had while on the testosterone. I don't want to give up the sex drive and the confidence. So it was just such a messed up situation for me to be in

that I didn't really feel like there was any right answer to. So for years, I kind of just let it go. I was so frozen. I was so afraid. Didn't do anything. And I didn't, I was just, I was so frozen. I was so afraid. And one of the complications that was again, briefly discussed in like very vague detail

was vaginal atrophy. The way that it was described to me was like, well, the tissue in the genital region starts to like, internally like thin out, dry out a little bit. It loses like a little bit of its function. But you can just address that using topical estrogen. So I started using that, but it is also around the time that, like, it, I, like, it, it was really starting to kill me inside.

Psychologically. Every... I just remember that feeling of, of, like, waking up every day, and, like, Every... I just remember that feeling of, like, waking up every day and, like, not really feeling like I had a purpose. Like, I was just drifting. I was starting to leave, I was starting to become, like, really apathetic. I was living really without any care in the world about anything. I was starting to isolate from my friends,

from my family, from my surroundings. I started self-medicating. I started using, I started drinking alcohol. I started using marijuana and smoking pretty much whatever I could get my grabby little hands on. I even started to experiment a little bit at some point with like psychedelics. Like I was really putting myself in

a lot of just dangerous situations because I didn't care about myself anymore. I wanted to die. I wanted to die now. It's so, I can't say it's funny because it's really not, but the way that they told my I can't say it's funny, because it's really not. But the way that they told my mom and dad that I could die if I was denied this treatment, only for me to become suicidal as a consequence of it, it was killing me. It really was, Physically, mentally.

I was suffering so much and I didn't really feel like I had anywhere, anybody to just confide in. And eventually, it was clear. I was deteriorating in every way. I was withdrawing from my studies. I think I had like a zero GPA at one point because I just wasn't doing any of my classwork at all. I started becoming truant. I started just like skipping school and eventually like my friends were noticing, like, I was talking about, like, suicide and

just wanting to disappear. And at one point, like, I was referred to the guidance counselor at school, actually. And it happened a few times. The first few times, I just told them, like, like, oh no, like I would never do that. Actually like I'm very scared of death. I would never even think about things like that. And the last time I came clean to them and they called home to my mom and dad to let them know. And by this point in time, like I wasn't really seeing a therapist anymore because after a few months of being on the injections, it was like, okay, great.

I'm a boy now. I'm happy. I'm experiencing all these changes. And I'm finally going to be my real self. And I'm never going to have a problem in my life ever again, right? I was going for years without like any, without like anybody like closely watching like my psychological profile and how I was really doing. And I found, again, I found the therapy

to be very unhelpful. It was just like very generic advice that wasn't really helping me. And so they thought I just had like treatment resistant depression because I wasn't getting any better. Not really considering the fact that I was on like, that I was taking poison every week, that I was living a poisonous lifestyle, both physically and socially. So I decided, well, let's medicate her more. Let's add a little bit more to the pharmaceutical cocktail.

Blockers, testosterone, let's give her an off-label antidepressant. And while we're at it, let's put her on stimulants, because she was previously diagnosed with ADHD, and now because of her depression, she's experiencing issues with her schoolwork again. It was... I was not in my right mind at all during that time.

And I was certainly not in the right mindset to be making any permanent decisions that would affect my body for the rest of my life. By this point in time, like I was, I had been using, I had been binding my breasts for probably about two, two and a half years. I was so sick of it. I was so sick of it.

Wearing this tight, sweaty thing, having to wear it every day underneath however many layers I was wearing. And whenever I was out of the house for upwards of eight hours per day, because that's like that's how that's how long my school days were, right? Whenever I would go like swimming with my friends or working out or doing PE, I was wearing this thing and it sucked. And I wanted to be free. I wanted to stop wearing, I wanted to be able to like look down at my chest and see... No longer see any breasts. I wanted them to be gone. I was afraid of them. And also... I was basically in a psychosis. I believed that I was a male in a female body. And I wanted my body to start reflecting that.

in a female body. And I wanted my body to start reflecting that. Because sure, I was having the changes from the testosterone in my face and my body, my shoulders getting bigger and such. This very feminine part of me was still there. And I hated it. Or I thought I hated it. So I started talking to my therapist about surgery and what my options were. And so I was immediately referred to a gender specialist who would deal with that. And if I, it's so hard to remember,

it's so hard to recall a lot of this because, like especially the appointments, because I wasn't really the one who was like really handling much of it because I wasn't the adult in the room. Even though my it was it was me who was who was ultimately allowed to make these decisions at an age where I shouldn't have. I think like I had like maybe like a 20 minute appointment with a specialist before she signed off. Um, and yeah, on a letter of recommendation to a surgeon.

Um, and it was probably only like half a year between that and me actually going under the knife. How did that conversation go before she wrote the letter? I can't even remember it. I mean, that's, that's probably, that probably shows just how brief it might have been. I mean, like there are only requirements. I think like the only requirements at the time really were just like, Oh, like be on hormones for this amount of time, be socially transient for this amount of time and you're good to go. So I had probably about like two consultations with the surgeon in the months before.

What did he say to reassure you? Well, he was very matter of fact about it. It's that's really how a lot of this the medical part of the medical side of my tranchion was was presented to me by the by these doctors. It was just like, oh, it's just like a part of the process. Like they don't bat an eye on all this crazy stuff that they're doing to kids. It's. So I just thought like, well, it's, it's just normal.

And I remember my mom stepping outside of the room, asking her like step outside of the room for like the, for like the physical examination of my breast, like check, they like do like routine checks for cancer, right? And like also like the physical examination of my breast, like check, they like do like routine checks for cancer, right, and like also like the elasticity of the skin and like the amount of breast tissue that they'll take out. And it might, it's kind of uncomfortable to talk about, but that was actually, that was, oh, oh God.

That was the first and last time that I ever experienced erogenous sensation in my breasts. I remember thinking like it actually feels so gross looking back on it. Because yeah, like it's like a routine like check for cancer and like all those other things like check for cancer and like all those other things for the procedure. But it's just like, I think about how like it's an adult man who took away my perfectly healthy breast and was feeling and touching on them. I don't want to like sound accusatory or anything at all because it wasn't of a sexual nature at all.

But for that to be like the I just remember like thinking like it feels actually quite pleasant. And then to lose that forever, that's something that's been difficult for me to reconcile with. But after that, like my mom and dad were referred to, we were recommended to go to, they called it a top surgery classroom. That would take place in the same building. And it was like a seminar for the families and for these kids to learn more about this procedure that they're going to undergo

and like all the different types of incisions and such. And it was run of course by like all these trans people, all adults who had had the procedure and were like, oh, I'm so happy. This has brought so much happiness into my life. It's made me feel whole and comfortable with my body. Even at the age that I was. Even as like as deep as I was into my tranchion and the ideology around tranching.

I remember sitting down in that classroom. In that in that room, all all the seats filling in, looking at all these other families, the kids looked so young. Some of them looked maybe as young as like 12. And part of it is that like a lot of these trans identified females, like they're women, they're obviously very feminine looking. So they're gonna look a lot younger than like a male

of the same age, right? So they could have been older, but it was even just even if they were, just the fact that they were, they were kids, they were other kids, and they weren't even nearly as far along to the process that I was as I was. Some of them were probably only on blockers. Some of them probably weren't even on any sort of medication as part of their transition. And they were already seeking surgery. I didn't want to admit it at the time but that actually kind of disturbed me and it kills me now. Like I wonder about those kids like how are they doing? Did they did they go through with it too? How is it affecting them? So when I remember the day of my surgery, the drive there was about an hour.

And I remember listening to music, just like, just kind of enjoying myself in the car. I was really excited, a little bit nervous. I had, I thought, in my mind, I didn't really have any doubts about it. It was like, this is a big step for me. And I'm finally going to be over the biggest, the most difficult part of my transition. And I'm going to be just like any other guy my age. I'm going to be able, I had this fantasy in my head of like, it was very idealistic. It was very like taking off my shirt at a beach and just like running around with my chest bared to the sun,

being able to feel the warmth on my chest without worrying about any breast bouncing around or like any semblance of femininity there. I remember being wheeled in to the room, and I was so nervous. I was just this giddy little kid. And I started making conversation with the doctors, the nurses, my surgeon, because what else am I supposed to do, right? I got to calm my nerves somehow.

So I was like introducing myself to them like, hi, like I'm Leo, I'm 15 years old and I'm in my sophomore year in high school and I'm considering, you know, I'm not like, I'm not really all that excited about, I remember the whole conversation I was having. I remember the whole conversation I was having. Um, I, at some point I looked off to the side of the room and I saw this uh, this, this nurse, he was like this young, this young man.

And the way he stared back at me, I didn't really, I didn't really understand at at the time why he was looking at me like that. But it was like, oh gosh, oh gosh, that's a kid that I'm about to do this to. What have I gotten myself into? But I thought nothing of it. And I just kept babbling on like a kid. So I went to sleep and I woke up from the surgery a few times actually. What do you mean you woke up? Like in the recovery room.

And the medication hadn't quite worn off yet. The first few times I woke up, I tried to get up too quickly and I almost threw up on myself a few times. And the final, they just kept putting me back to sleep, kept having me lay back down, but I really had to use the restroom. So the final time I got up, they like, I remember going to the bathroom, seeing the binder, seeing the flat shape underneath. And it was like, this is so cool.

It's finally over. I'm going to heal and I'm going to be just like any other, any other man. I'm going to be a man one day. I won't just be a trans boy. I'm going to be a man... for life. And of course, I mean, that never really happened. But in that first week or so recovery, it was like, this is great. Like, mom's taking time off work to help me around the house because I was basically disabled. Like, I had like no range of motion in my upper body because like, it's a major surgery.

They're like, they're taking tissue out of an area of the body that has a lot of muscle and a lot of connective tissue. So I had to have help around the house with chores and taking care of myself, food. And at first it felt nice because I get more time with mom. And it's summertime, my surgery was was June 4. So I had like the whole summer to rest up and recover. And it felt nice just to spend that extra time with with her and dad. Just like play video games all day. Eventually, though, I got kind of sick of it. And it got a

little bit of a cabin fever. I think after about like the the seven to ten day mark was when I was finally able to take off the post-op binder and get my stitches taken out. What was that like? It was terrifying actually. I remember looking down at my body and like all the surgical markings still being there and like the... It looks like a war had just taken place on my body. Okay, because it had, yeah. Basically, yeah.

Like I had like these big scars across my chest where my breasts used to be. And then, so the type of incision that I got is called double incision with nipple grafts, meaning that they take, they basically take skin grafts out of the areolas and they re-graph them onto a higher place on the chest for a more masculine positioning, they say. I remember the recovery for the grafts was just hell to go through and to look at. Because obviously you have to cut off the blood supply of the areolas as they were grafting them.

The top layer of skin dies. So it was just black on top. And to see see that I felt like a Frankenstein monster and as they were taking the stitches out I Could barely feel it I could barely feel it so to watch that happening on my chest and not to be able to feel it really at all Say for like a few like it felt like sparks electricity going through my chest. I almost threw up on myself a few times it was I'm shaking. I'm shaking right now as I think about it. I remember going home after that and now, like, I didn't have to wear the binder anymore, but I had to, like, start, like, taking care of the grafts and the massaging and, like, putting ointment on the scars. Yeah.

Do that every... To do that every, before and after every bath and shower. It was really, really tough to look at myself like that. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And I mean, after probably about like the two month mark, I started becoming more confident about the two month mark, I started becoming more confident in the way that it looks. And it was like, great. It's like, I'm starting to look like a teenage boy. I just, I basically never wore a shirt that whole summer.

I would just walk around the house for like a good half a year with no shirt on because it was like, I got this done, Look at me. And it was also like, it felt freeing to like be able to feel like the cold air on my bare chest. So I found it like very, very interesting sensually as well. But after I, I, I feel like it just like reinforced like these really narcissistic behaviors for me Like I felt so focused on myself on my appearance on what was going on with my body and It was it was not good for me and in any way

So this was this is during June of 2020 When the kovat restrictions were really strict, actually, in California. So I was already very socially isolated. And a lot of my friendships were kind of strewn up because of distance learning from the previous school year and such. I was very lonely during this time. And I spent a lot of my time on the internet, on social media. And so a lot of people started posting

a lot of selfies of themselves and stuff they were doing during quarantine. And for the first time in years, I started experiencing body, these, those body image issues that I had when I started puberty. And I would like look at these, all these pretty girls and it was like,

why do I feel like I wanna look like them again? Why am I starting to miss my femininity? I was so ashamed of myself for feeling that way because I was so deep into this. I was I think like three years on hormones by this point. I just had my breasts removed and I had like a very masculine looking body. I had a very deep voice. Everybody in my life knew me as Leo. They knew me as a boy from school. My mom and dad knew me as their trans son now. I was a brother. I was a grandson. I was a nephew. I was an uncle. How could I ever go back? Like, how could I even consider going back? I thought I felt so stupid.

I denied it in my head for so long because I thought it was just stupid of me to feel that way. But it was killing me. The way that I looked, the way that I sounded, my voice was so deep. I remember one time during my junior year, so deep. I remember one time during my junior year, once they stopped doing the distance learning model and sort of having us come back to school, I remember like doing like a reading of a passage of a book in my English class and how different my voice sounded from everybody else in the room, even the other boys. I had a deeper voice than my teacher, my male peers, a lot of my male family members. But I had, it was so strange because I also have, I'm very petite. I have, I have, I had like, especially for, for a guy, I had such a small

body, but such a, like a deep, booming voice. I hated it. I hated the distance. It didn't feel, it was so uncomfortable for me. It was just another one of those things that I felt was like, like separating me from the other people around me. I just wanted to be normal. Um, I started like wear some of my old girl clothes from my childhood. Um, I started like secretly buying like skirts and dresses all night and even like going to the drug store to like buy, buy makeup and start secretly buying skirts and dresses all night, and even going to the drug store to buy makeup and start experimenting with it,

all within the comfort of my room. I would never let anybody at school see me like that because I was shamed. I'd get called all sorts of names for if I even tried something like that, because I was a guy now. But also just like, I don't want my family to see that either. I didn't want them to start suspecting that I was regretting this because,

partly because of my ego, but also I was afraid of letting them down too. But eventually, as it turned out, I couldn't run away from this feeling. It was only worsening. And the turning point for me was during the later half of my junior year, towards the last month of it actually, when I was taking a class in psychology, and the later part of the course was focused mostly on family, on children, and there was one lesson, I think it was the Harlow experiments with the rhesus monkeys, the infants, the cloth mother and the wire mother.

I mean, it really freaked me out, like seeing like those creepy models of those simulated monkey mothers, but also just like the cruel nature of the experiment. And it was also like the first time that I ever really thought about things like maternity, breastfeeding, remember thinking, breastfeeding. Like I'm seeing how, I never really thought about it before at all. You know, during consultations for surgery,

like, and in like the forms on the paper, it was like, one of the things that was listed was the loss of my ability to nurse any future children I may have, which sounds obvious, right? And I knew that. But it was like, I'm a guy. I'm going to be a man one day. If I have children, I'm going to be a father. Yeah. You will never catch me breastfeeding a child

because that's not what men do. That's not what fathers do. Why would I wanna do that if I'm a man? Because I didn't understand just how beautiful that is. I didn't really understand the beauty of just that God has given women not only the ability to create and sustain life, but also to nourish their children with their bodies. And it was then that I was really starting to think about it. I was like, this is what I'm losing.

I realize I'm still a child. I'm still very much a kid. And I've already lost so much just in within a matter of years. Parts of my adulthood are gone because of decisions that I wasn't able to make by irresponsible adults. These are years. There are entire parts of my body that I won't be able to get back. And if I go any further, if I do this for any longer, I could lose my ability to have children naturally if I'm still able to at all.

I was so distraught. For weeks, I gave up on my studies entirely. And one night, I just broke down crying. I couldn't even face my mother. I just broke down crying. I couldn't even face my mother. I just texted her. I called my boyfriend at the time just to talk about how humiliated I was, how much I regretted every single part, every single thing I did

in those past few years of my life. And I just had no idea what to do with myself. I felt so much guilt for everybody around me. Because I knew my mom and dad, I couldn't imagine how they felt. Because they were going through this with me. It's not like it was just happening to me. The doctors did this to them too.

And I felt like I did this to them. It was my fault. And I didn't want them to see me crying. I didn't want to see them crying. I just didn't want any of this. But But I kept going. I didn't know why. I didn't really feel like I had any purpose left. I didn't think I wanted to live, but I still kept doing it.

What is it? What do you mean, kept doing it? What is it? What do you mean kept doing it? Breathing, eating, sleeping. Simple things. But I still kept going. And I started to really contemplate what just happened. Because what the hell just happened to me over these past few years. It was like one big fever dream. And I started to really think about it like,

I'm no longer transgender. Like I've lost my entire denti. So is there even a word for that? Is this like a phenomenon that happens? Am I alone? And it just, it sounds like something out of a movie, but the word just like popped straight into my head. Detransition. Because I transitioned, right? You're saying transition? Detransition.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The stopping of my transition. And I looked it up. And I was surprised to find that there are quite a few results actually. And I found the subreddit, the r slash d trans community. I found that there were like discord chat rooms, just based around this very idea of stopping transition. And I started to connect with these people who had been through the very same thing that I had. It was incredible and terrifying all at once

because I don't want anybody else to know what this feels like, but I'm glad that I'm not alone. I'm glad that there are people who are way deeper into this than I am, who are older than me, people who I can look up to, people who are more stable in their lives, people who have found a new normal. That gave me hope.

And for a while I consider myself non-binary or whatever, and I went by, I was like, any pronouns, right? Because I don't know what I am anymore after all this. I don't feel like I deserve to call myself a woman, but they really helped me like process just what happened and to come to snap back into reality. And I realized there is nothing I could ever be other than a woman. And you know, it's hard. It's not easy, but it's not about easy. It's a gift.

Um, and I struggled a little bit, um, with, with that, but I'm sure, I also, I sure coming out to your parents and saying, I want to de-transition part of your reluctance was how guilty they are going to feel. Um, do you know how they processed that or are processing it? Um, I mean, seeing how I am today and that I've been able to use like the pain that me and mom and dad and our whole family have gone through and to use it to help these other families and prevent my, this story from repeating itself ever again, it's give, it's helped us as a, to heal as a family. It's helped them a lot with, with, with their feelings of guilt.

And I'm sure for a while, like they didn't know if I was really going to ever make it because of just how much stuff I had been through and how dysfunctional I was. It's really just been a total miracle. Did you also feel like you were being a traitor towards the LGBT community in wanting to go back? Yeah. So before that, I really...

It killed me inside to see just how sad and how confused my mom and dad were. It was like a breath of fresh air for them, but at the same time, it's like all this happened seemingly for nothing. You know, for a while I still went with my chosen name, Leo, because it's like, it's cool. I thought at the time, like it's a pretty cool name. It is a cool name.

It's not too, it was, it's not, and it wasn't, it's not too far out from like my, my given name by my parents. I just kind of lazily took out three letters, gave myself a new name, right? And throughout a lot of my childhood, I didn't really feel very particularly attached to my name. So often with my friends,

I would experiment with different names even before I transitioned. But I had this epiphany. I was thinking to myself one day like... My name was the second gift that my mom and dad gave to me after my life. I think I owed it to, I owed to them to at least give them that after everything we've all, we've all been through. So in a way it was sort of an apology to them.

And I feel like I've, I've quite grown into it. But in terms of how the trans community has treated me after the fact, it's not been good, to say the least. It was a complete turnaround from the, oh, wow, you're so congratulations on the surgery. Like, like, you're so lucky. So congratulations on the surgery. You're so lucky. Like you're finally here, finally at the last step. And I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you.

It's all gone. No, like as soon as I started talking just about the regret and how much I hated my face and my body at the time and how much pain I was in, people hated me just for talking about that. And I feel like a lot of that comes from the jealousy that a lot of people had for me that they just kind of harbored over time this resentment for me because I was fairly young compared to a lot of my transgender friends and I was really the only person I knew who had gotten so far

into the process of medically transitioning. So these people, I was often either like a beacon of hope for them or... A threat, right? You're a mirror showing them the mistake they've made. Yeah, they want it. I remember this one person telling me like, you didn't deserve to have parents who love you this much to allow you to go this far into your transition. You didn't deserve a single part of it. And honestly, I don't agree with the bit they said about my parents, but I agree that I didn't deserve this. I deserve better. I mean, any kid deserves better than this. And yes, there also is that element of fear there of seeing somebody so far along, seemingly so happy under supposedly the most ideal set of circumstances, right? Everybody in my life knew me as a boy.

Almost everybody in my life was supportive. And I was medically transitioned. I passed as the opposite sex pretty well. And yet it failed. It was a total failure. When you were saying that people were upset with you, where were you sharing your story on like for them to hate you over it? Just social media? This was long before, like about a year before I started speaking out publicly. Yeah. So

it was just like on my personal social media on on Instagram. A lot of people went after me. And a lot of people not only abandoned me, but they purposely went out of their way to say horrible things to me. Stop talking about it. You're just making people uncomfortable. You're making real transgender people feel... You're turning them the other way. Not saying that I was trying to convert anybody, but preventing them from getting the care that they need.

It was such a horrible, awful thing to say to a 16-year-old girl, freshly traumatized. I remember people telling me, like, you look better as a boy. Why even think about going back to a girl? And nothing, nothing they said ever deterred me. I mean, for a while it sure made me shut up because it's like, what awful treatment to be going through so young while, while I was in such a vulnerable position.

But I've also kind of always had like this, this, this, this rebellious streak. And not to say that I like pissing people off, but I like getting into heated discussions. I like being a little bit more on the, on the controversial side. And I realize, I, I realized this and it was like, you know, like these people, they're treating me like crap and for what?

Because I'm in pain? Because I don't conform to their idea of what this is supposed to look like? It's kind of exciting actually. I think I want to start speaking out. Because it's kind of funny to watch and also like not only like the entertaining aspect of it, but, like, speaking to those other detradition people, and knowing that there are other people out there who had been hurt in the very same way that I have, I mean, total systemic failure.

If... If I had to say, hurt in the very same way that I have. I mean total systemic failure. If if nobody was really, not to say that nobody was speaking out about it, but I felt like it was a perfect time for me to jump into the discussion publicly about it. I'm going to start opening up about my experience to the whole world because my experience to the whole world. Because I mean, compared to a lot of mighty transition friends, like once I got myself together, like I was, I'm in a pretty good situation, health-wise. I'm on good terms with my family.

And at the time, my story was unique. I didn't know of any other kids out there who were detransioned, anybody who would even transition as children. But I knew they had to be out there. And I saw the discussion around this in the media and nationally and internationally was starting to, it was starting to head into a, into a new direction. And I thought like, what better time for me to step in than now. So at that point, did you say no more hormone blockers, no more testosterone?

I mean, the night that I broke down was the night that I stopped. Yeah. I stopped taking anything. And I did it cold turkey. That was like hell on earth. Really? What's that? That was like hell on earth. Really? What's it like?

That was awful. It was, where do I even start? I mean, physically, of course, it was awful. Like I got really sickly, like almost immediately. I dropped so much weight. I stopped eating. I didn't really have an appetite anymore. And I lost probably about like 25 to 30 pounds

in a matter of like two months. Kept losing weight. I was not healthy looking at all. And mentally, I was in so much anguish. My friends had abandoned me. I had nobody to hang out with at school anymore. And I was, I had no guidance from any of my doctors. I didn't know anybody in person who was going through what I did and I was like freshly processing trauma

So I was like I was I would have like a lot of these episodes like probably like on almost a daily basis of just like crying being destructive I burnt a lot of bridges during this time because I just couldn't get a hold of myself. Mm-hmm I burnt a lot of bridges during this time because I just couldn't get a hold of myself. It felt like I was spinning with no stopping anytime soon. I had no control over myself. It was so terrible. Like I couldn't even begin. I don't think words could describe just how much pain I was in.

I really do think that was like my rock bottom. I remember the social changes going back to school my senior year. It was horrible. People often mistook me, I think people often mistook me as like a trans woman, which was like, what a horrible experience. He was like, no, I'm really a woman. I'm not a guy. I never was a guy, but everybody knew me that way.

And I looked like a boy, so it was hard to prove otherwise. A lot of people were pretty mean to me. They would talk a lot of crap behind my back. And because of the way I dress, I didn't know any better. I had like this very stereotypical image of what women were like, because not only because of like social media and like content I was consuming,

but also because I wasn't living or being socialized as a girl for a long time so when I got back I was basically back to like dressing how like it was like a mix between how I dressed as a kid um and also like stuff that I would see on social media from like fashion models and stuff. So I was wearing like super like tiny skirts, tank tops. I was just dressed very, I was not dressed very conservatively. And people like took notice of that. It got me like a lot of, again, like a lot of attention that was not good for a 16, 17 year old girl. And also people just started like making accusations of me

behind my back basically saying like I was like the school skank which is crazy because I had no friends that year you know what I did at lunch I would just I'd sit in the corner of the school or like in a classroom all alone and I just like eat my lunch while watching watching anime or playing video games on my phone because I had nothing else to do. I had nothing else going on. And you know what I would do after school? I do the same thing.

Watch anime, eat, play video games, draw sleep. No real interaction with anybody other than on the internet. It was, it was horrible. Help me understand this correlation between those who transition quote unquote and anime. Why is anime so big in the tranny community? No, it's so funny because I was like, I'm still like kind of like a big like anime fan. I grew up with it basically, like my older sisters would watch like a lot of like, it was like the more innocent, cutesy stuff.

So magical girl stuff, stuff like Sailor Moon, Ghibli movies, family content basically. And I don't really know exactly where the correlation is, but I think, again, in general, people within the trans community, people who are gender dysphoric, are more creative, they're more open-minded, they're more open to these crazy, out-of-the-box ideas

such as that you can change your sex or that sex is not a binary or that sex and gender are not the same thing, for example. There's probably also that fantastical element of it because these are like, the very premise of transitioning is based on, it's a fantasy. Like there's no, there is not a single part of it that is based in reality at all.

You said earlier that- And it's also like, sorry. Like an anime, like there's like a lot of like, it's like a lot of what they call like fan service. So like, it's like it's ranged from like anything from like girls being cute, like girls being like very overtly sexual. And there's like an archetype of trans identified men

called autogynophiles. Basically meaning that they have like, they find sexual excitement in the idea of being a woman. So like having a female body or like trying on like women's clothes. And I think that's part of the connection for a lot of, a lot of those people. Um, but there's also like men who are like just effeminate and they want like a space where they can kind of, um, just, just express that. Without being condemned or mocked. Yeah.

Yeah. You said earlier that you were hoping that one day you could take your shirt off at the beach and run around. So what's the healing process been like? Was it as idyllic as you were hoping? Oh, it's still going. Yeah. It's still going.

I thought I'd be like full healed. And I thought I was for a while. Did you look, did it look like you had a man's chest? It's... Most men don't have scars across their chest. Most men don't have like... unusual areolas. So I mean, like in terms of like contouring, like the positioning of everything,

it's like my surgeon didn't do a bad job. It isn't exactly like with the scarring stuff, it doesn't look natural, but the contouring of the tissue underneath, it looks like, I wouldn't say now that looks like a masculine chest, because I have a feminine body now. So I just look like a flat chested woman, I think. But at the time, I had a little bit more muscle. So I actually, I kind of did look like a boy just with some scars for whatever reason. I'm sure if, like, if I went out like that, like, during, like, a field trip, like a class, like, like, trip or something to the beach or, or like a, like, an adventure with some friends, it'd probably be like, something's not right.

Yeah. Was that frustrating for you to realize that your dreams didn't come true in that sense? Um, I mean, I don't really care about anymore. It's like not now. I don't mean that. But I mean, back when you were trying to pretend to be a man, we were at the time is that before I wasn't really think about it that way. Before I do transition, they were just like, um, these are my battle scars.

And if anybody gives me crap for it, well, screw them. Yeah. When did you become more popular than other detransitioners? How did that happen? Because I've started here, you're very articulate. You're very good at expressing yourself. I'm sorry. And I thought to myself earlier that, you know, Leo, I'm looking at you and I'm thinking you're

a lioness man. The Lord is going to use you to proclaim truth and light into a dark hurting world. You're you're powerful in a beautiful feminine way. Thank you. So when did you start to get noticed? It's so funny because when I first started speaking out publicly, I just made an account on X, then known as Twitter, one day. And it was an account that I initially used for personal purposes, so I had some stupid

stuff on there that I retweeted or posted, just in my personal interest, and I decided one day, I'm gonna start using this for a better purpose. It had like some stupid username on it. It was, my first username was pudding pandan, which is like a, it's like a, it's a, it's cute. It's like a Southeast Asian dessert. Pandan is like a plant that,

it sort of tastes like vaguely like vanilla and grass. It's used like in a lot of desserts from that area. But eventually I had like, make a little rebrand because it's like, that's kind of a mouthful. And it's not very, I feel like it's not very memorable, especially like for the kind of thing that I'm doing. So I just settled on like, Chloe Cole was taken. So I just took a thing that I'm doing. So I just settled on Chloe Cole was taken. So I just took a nickname that I had,

Chu, put together, Chu Cole. Okay, all right. And I didn't think it would, I didn't really know how far it was gonna go. I was just going into it without any expectations really, just hoping that my story would reach anybody, anybody. Parents, other retrenching people, maybe some retrenching.

Remind me what year this is. Is this pre, what is it, a woman? I think by a few months. Wow. Yeah. So, yeah, this was 2021, or 2022, I think. So much has happened within just a few years. It's so hard to keep up with. It feels like eons ago.

It was, I think it was like March of 2022 that I started speaking on this account. And then it really, really, really started to ramp up. Like I started getting like thousands of followers over the next few weeks. I think like I was roughly about like 8,000 followers and then JK Rowling followed me and it was like, that's wild. Did you read Harry Potter as a girl?

I actually never did. Like I watched the movies as a kid. I need, I need to rewatch them. I need to actually read the book. What was that like? You came home and you just saw JK Rowling just set a bow on you. I remember showing my mom and dad and my brother like, JK Rowling bowed on me! That's crazy. All of a sudden it was like all these people who I never thought I'd be talking to were

like noticing me. It was such a strange feeling. I started having like reporters reaching out to me through DMs covering my story and and it just started to really, like, really go from there. And I was, eventually this, this parent group by the name of Partners for Ethical Care, they reached out to me over, over X, and they were asking me, like, if I would be willing to over X and they're asking me like if I would be willing to speak in opposition of a bill in Louisiana that would basically enable what happened to me over there. I think it was like a conversion therapy bill or whatever

trying to include gender identity in as well or like anything other than affirmative, anything other than the affirmative model to be included in the definition of conversion therapy, which is dangerous obviously. California has the same law and that's part of why I've got to the point that I'm at now. Because by law, no other options can be presented to kids like me. And at first, they were just asking for written testimony because it's a lot to ask a kid, a 17 year old, to be flying out.

But I guess Louisiana has some stuff going on with their their legislature that makes it kind of difficult deal with That's an understatement really Wow but Eventually, it got to the point that like they weren't like accepting like zoom Collins or anything. So they asked me like we know this is crazy, but would your parents be okay with you coming out to Louisiana to testify? And my heart said yes.

I wanted to go all in on this. But my brain was like, there's no way mom and dad are saying yes to this. There's no way. And then I remember like bringing up to them and I was so upset that they said no. I was like, I remember going to my room and crying afterward because like, gosh, I wanna do this so bad.

And it's so, it means so much to me. But of course, like, they could see that. But they also were so scared for me because like, I was just I had to transition less than a year ago. Right. And like, I was still very, very immature in quite a few ways. I was still stunted emotionally and behind my peers in a lot of ways, and not in the most stable of states. And they didn't want me to be, they didn't want me to potentially like, put me in any precarious situations like that. But eventually like, it took some convincing,

but they said yes. And thank God they said yes. Because they saw like, this is her chance to use what happened to her for a greater good. Thank God they said yes. And a few weeks later I was called out again to... Did they fly with you? Yeah, they did.

Did it go well? Were you nervous? Yeah, yeah. Well, it didn't go well, unfortunately. I wasn't able to testify. We thought it was a loss at first because apparently they were only allowing one person on each side from public comment to testify. And I wasn't able to come in. But I was able to privately speak to some legislators and I think I ended up making lifetime friends with with Jeanette Cooper and Of a partner's ethical care she's

I'd say out of like all the people in who I've met in this movement she of like all the people who I've met in this movement, she's definitely one of my favorite women. I'm so thankful for her. I'm so thankful that she reached out to me and that just to know her and just like seeing the fight that she's also putting up. Um... But... I was called out to Ohio to speak publicly, to testify publicly for the first time, because, like, obviously, like, the last time, it didn't work out, and I wasn't able to do it publicly. Um...

And I remember just how exciting that was. Um... There were these, like, trans activists who are sitting in who were who are going to testify as well. One of them was sitting right in front of me this big like six foot dude with his blazer on his protect trans kids heart t shirt. He like yelled out at the at one of the representatives a few times, actually. It was pretty chaotic.

It was very, it was a very, it was kind of nerve wracking, but more than anything, it was exciting just to be a part of. I remember coming back, I was so nervous giving my testimony publicly that first time. And when I walked back, like I was so, I was so proud of myself. I was so, I was so happy that I finally did it. I found the courage to do it. And I fell down. Then you fell dumb? I fell down.

You fell down? The kid who was sitting in front of me with that shirt, he tripped me. And I didn't realize it at the time. But... I thought at first, I just stumbled over to him like, oh, I'm sorry. He's like, oh, it's okay. And I thought about it. I realized, wait, wait a minute. He stuck his foot out. He did that on purpose. And I was talking with some of my friends who were watching the live feed at the time. They were like, yeah, he was making faces at you the whole time.

He was really... Yeah, I could go on and on about all the crazy experiences I've had with people like chasing me down or the threats that I've gotten. Those have been plentiful, of course. I mean, it's quite the journey that I've been on. But one thing that I was really shocked by actually was just how supportive people have been of me, especially with all the loss that I experienced in the years before.

And just the transgender community, these people who I once saw as a family, people who I thought nurtured me, people who I want to nurture, who I loved, abandoning me. I never really expected all the love and support that was to come for me as I started doing this work. The vast majority of people who I come across, who DM me, who I work with, who I come across, who DM me, who I work with, who I tell my story to. They're very kind. They're very supportive. And it's...

As difficult as it is, it's not only the support and love of the... of these people, but it's also just like seeing the fruits of the labor of this movement that I'm so thankful to be a part of just coming out in the past few years has been incredible. Wow. What was it like watching what is a woman. I have it I need I need to rewatch it I haven't seen it in so long but it felt like it was like a breath of fresh air seeing like a sane documentary on on this on the subject. And Matt Walsh he's he's so good he's hilarious he's a great actually hilarious. I met him in person a few times, actually, as.

The beard is just as majestic. Let's just say, and he is just as deadpan, like what you get on camera is what you get in real life. It's pretty funny. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's one of the most popular documentaries of all time. It's wild. I won't be surprised. I'm probably one of the most censored as well. Yeah, indeed.

What was it like going on Jordan Peterson show and what was the aftermath? It's so strange because that's one like the for a lot of people. That's like their. That's like their marker for their idea for me, but it was like in the grand scheme of things. It honestly was so long ago. Like I think so many different things have changed since then.

But I remember being, it was so crazy how it came about. Like it was just a few days before Christmas. Like his producer reached out to just reached out to me through Instagram and was like, you know what? Like why not do it? I'd love to talk to Dr. Peterson. And at first, I was really, I had my nerves. I was very intimidated, but I really settled quickly into it. And I started feeling really comfortable. it and I started feeling like really comfortable. Like it really, I like to say that it felt like

I was speaking to three people at once. A grandfather figure, a psychologist, and definitely not a lousy psychologist like the ones I had over the years. And a teacher all at once. Like I was learning about, I was learning things about myself that I had never really thought about before. Like it's the only, it's the only interview I can think of where I was actually learning things about myself rather than like telling my story to other people. It was, it was such an interesting experience. What a lot of people don't know though actually was that it was not in person. I was in a local Airbnb with a camera crew

and we were doing it over Zoom. I haven't gotten to meet him in person yet. I'm I'm awaiting the day that I do though. Mm-hmm. No, I'll be very I'll be very happy to finally meet him. Yeah Did you get a lot more sort of requests and people following you after that? Oh, yeah, it was huge Like I recently checked his channel actually and it's like one of his most watched videos actually. Um, I think it's I think it's like at Four million views now. It could be more or less than that but that's a lot of eyes. What advice do you give to people like me for 4.1? What advice do you give towards people like me and others as we encounter people who are acting as if they are a different sex? Obviously with respect, but I mean, speak to that a bit.

Yeah, it's a fine line to tiptoe between respecting them and truly being compassionate to them. To be compassionate to somebody who is experiencing gender dysphoria or wants to tranchion, I don't think that means to affirm them, to just give them everything that they want. Because the only thing that you're affirming is a delusion. They are not actually of the opposite sex. There is no changing your sex. And I think it's cruel to be lying to their faces like that, especially when it's a child, because you're basically affirming this idea

that they have about themselves, that the way that they were made was wrong, that they have to change their body in order to feel okay as a person. That's not right. Nobody deserves to feel that way. What these people deserve, and what a lot of them often don't have, is somebody who is willing to challenge them, to challenge this identity and these ideas that they have. Because chances are they don't have that. Chances are the people that they have around them in their life are are too afraid to do that because they're afraid of losing them. Which it's not an unrealistic fear, but you have to you still have to give them your best chance, even at the risk of losing your friendship or whatever ties you have with them. Because they need it. What about advice for parents who have not protected their child, have allowed their child to be mutilated, to lie, pretend that they're something they're not. And maybe now they see an interview like this and they're waking up, bloody hell, what have I done?

What have I done to my sweet daughter or my sweet son? But maybe their daughter or son is not yet willing to admit the delusion. How, what advice do you have to them? Encouragement do you have for them in processing this guilt and then going forward with their child? That's a very good question, actually. And I think one of the, it's probably the first time that I've been asked that specifically, like how to deal with this if you've already affirmed this and your child is like already on their way into transitioning. I mean in terms of processing this,

it's difficult, but you have to be able to recognize your role and your hand in this happening, because this is not something that just happens within a vacuum these these feelings of distress that a child had could have around their sex Doesn't just come from a vacuum. It often comes from issues with With within family or traumatic experiences that they that they that it may that they may have had But you also can't blame yourself too much. Because I mean to be told by a doctor that this is the only choice for your child, of course you're going to take the only cure that has been given to you and your child. So take responsibility, but don't beat yourself up. And I mean, in terms of going forward with them, that's a really difficult one because I mean,

I've never really, I personally, I made the choice to detransion my parents Didn't have me transient. I've had met parents who have successfully assisted their kids Before any medical intervention is taking place, but I've never really met any parent who was further into the process I'm gonna think about it for a moment. I feel like there's... I think immediately of your older brother who you wanted to distance yourself from because

he questioned in any way whether you were going down the right path. I think that's what makes it so difficult because you want to keep communications open so you can love them and speak truth to them and they might be in a very sensitive defensive place that if you show any sort of criticism they'll flee. Yeah. You have to start small. You have to start with the foundations of your relationship with your child, spending more time with them, spending more quality time with them, and building that sort of building that that trust with them so

that you can you can have like they can confide it in you about anything about having any any default possessions even if they're uncomfortable and like slowly building your way up and starting to challenge them a little bit I think on on these ideas And I feel like from from from from there on like you could like gauge their reaction you could gauge the reaction to You know to the discussion and they're not going to be happy about it for a long while. They're going to be very unhappy about being challenged because that's just how children react.

And this is something that is very ideological and very emotional in nature. So it's going to be, it's not going to be easy to have this discussion with them. And if your child is already medicated, I feel like there's, there's two choices you can make. You could either choose to, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's not going, it's not going to be easy because in certain, in certain areas, like if you, in certain states, if you choose not to affirm your child in their transition, you could potentially lose your custody of them. I know parents who this has happened to in California, in places like slowly, um, wean your child off of the medication, or you could have them detransition on their own terms. Yeah. It's not, it's, it's, it doesn't feel

like I, I hate, I, I really, I really do hate saying either of those things because either way, it's, it's not, it's not the best situation. All right what advice do you have to someone who is presenting themselves as a male or a female falsely who's watching this right now maybe they've even had surgery and they don't know what to do what encouragement would you give them? I think that no matter what you've been through, no matter what it is in life that you've lost, whether it be friends, years off of your life, even whole body parts or your health,

it's never too late to go back and to recover. There is, I think the best things in life are unexpected. And to take that risk without knowing what you're going to find ahead. It's not going to be easy. But I think for most people it will end up being worthwhile. I do know a lot of people who are so far in who have had surgery and because they don't even look like their own sex anymore. They don't really feel like they can fully detrench and That's That's hard. That's difficult to watch.

And I don't really feel like I can give as much as much advice on that front. Is there a good, sorry, continue. I think there's comfort in reality as painful as it can be. Just the fact that we were all given the gift of life that we were all given bodies and even if we mistreated them. That we still have the things that we do that were still alive that there's still are things that we can enjoy. This world. I don't know if you've ever heard of Saint Francis of a CC he's usually seen as a bird bath but he was actually a radical mystic awesome dude and towards the end of his life he was laying there almost blind he had treated his body so poorly because

of penances and he even asked forgiveness of his own body and I think well that's I know it's a very different situation but there's a sense in which kind of coming to terms that I've mutilated I've allowed now you're different because you're a child. That was their bloody fault. But someone who allows someone to mutilate them or choose to be mutilated to then say, God, I'm sorry, I did this to this body you've given me to myself because you don't have a body. You are one. Yeah. I think no matter what you've what you've done to yourself or what other people have done to you. You deserve grace and you deserve to be able to forgive yourself for it. What is there as we wrap up now because you need to get to the airport, but is there communities

online or books or things that you might say? Check this out. I know you already mentioned the Reddit group of detransitioners. Yeah, or no? I mean, I wouldn't really recommend it as a place to go. If you're looking like from a long term standpoint, it is a very depressing place. There is a lot of pain, a lot of trauma, a lot of bad energy there that I don't think is good to be, to surround yourself with long term. It helped me to like see those other stories to connect with those people in those communities at first, like just to help me to come to terms with what happened to me

and to be able to process it. But it's not good to surround yourself with that for a long time for life. Because this should not be for life. The point of detransitioning should be finding a new normal life afterward, however that looks for you. Your focus shouldn't be on your gender and the painful things that you've been through for the rest of your life. It should be growth. focus shouldn't be on your gender and the painful things that you've been through for the rest of your life. It should be growth. Are you still receiving, do you still have issues from the medication you're on today

or is that mostly gone? Yeah, I still have some complications from all three of the treatments. I think because of the blockers, I experienced varying degrees of joint pain. It's usually not so bad, but things like traveling or any physical activity can aggravate it. Sometimes I get like, it's rare and kind of sporadic, but sometimes I get like shivering pains in my back, up my spine, usually just for a split second, but it's not pleasant. And from the testosterone, I still have like urinary tract issues. I don't like have any blood in my urine anymore or anything scary like that, but I have to use the restroom pretty frequently. And I often like can't really gauge like whether like my

bladder is like fully empty. And I think like I do have like a sensitive bladder. I haven't really... I need to see a doctor. But it's so... I shouldn't be making excuses. There's really no excuse at this point. And I'm seeing some doctors as part of my lawsuit, which I'm going to get to very shortly. Wow, terrific. But I need to start seeing a physician regularly for the other stuff that I'm going through, because I really don't know just what is going on with my body.

Yeah. I have... You know what's funny is that my menstrual cycle came back very quickly after I stopped taking the testosterone, which is a total miracle. And it was very regular for a long time because... which is a total surprise because when I started the hormones, I had only been having periods for a year. They're very regular and often only came like once like every three to four months. So the fact that they were... I don't know how,

but I must have developed somehow along, along the way. Um, I made the mistake of taking birth control a year after I stopped transitioning to, because I was experiencing like really bad, like PMS symptoms, like I would get suicidal before every period. Um, and I thought, well, uh, gosh, it was so stupid. It was like, well, I guess I could let's see if this might address that. I hate being on it. It just, it's just stupid.

It was stupid to me to be on it. Well, I mean, you're in pain and you're trying to. And I was a kid, but it's actually, I actually got through like this online subscription service and all I had to use like my medical art ID card. Like it's so, it's so horrible how easy it is to get ahold of. Especially since I was a kid. I was still a minor.

Um, but I went off of it like, like well over a year and a half ago. My cycles are still irregular. Yeah. And I don't know if it's just, I don't think it's just because of the birth control alone, I think there's so many unknowns with the trans healthcare. Cause we don't know how these treatments affect the body in the longterm. We truly have no idea. So it could have been like a combination of the changes that testosterone and blocking my puberty left on my body and then the birth control just adding more fuel to the fire. And with the surgery, like in terms of sensation, I feel I still have like a little bit left over and it's a pretty decent

amount. It's definitely not the same as it was. I've been having some skin issues with the grafts actually that popped up about two or three years post-op just out of the blue when I thought I was was, I was fairly, fairly healed up, just happened out of nowhere. And I've gone to different doctors. I've, I've tried to like talk to other people and I'm the only person I know of who has this complication. Um, nobody's been able to give me an answer. There's, I, I, there's, there's, there's so many unknowns. I don't know like what.

Yeah. I feel like even for someone like myself, if I want to go have something looked at, they always end up sending me to a specialist and it's such a headache. I can't imagine being in your situation where it's like, talk about a specialist. There is no specialist. There are no codes to bill for. There are no standards of care for those of us who detransion. Detransion is not recognized by pretty much any healthcare system. It's not even talked about during consultations unless you ask about it. And then these doctors say, of course, well, studies say that it's less than 1% or...

Yeah, piss off. Not you, the doctor. It'd be a great way to end the interview. Piss off. Where can they find you online? So I am on social media. I'm I mainly use X. But I'm also on Instagram as well, and I'm doing I have a YouTube channel as well, where I write doing an interview series with other detranchers for you. Thank you for doing that. What's it called? What's the podcast? So my my my username on all three of those platforms should be the same.

It's my nickname, Chookele, C H O O O three O's C O L E. Excellent. You should be able to find me on YouTube just by looking up Chloe Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come out here. I made a good Lord bless you in your efforts to speak truth into a world obsessed with lies. Thank you, sir. Cool. Yeah.