Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Ann Druyan on New Honors for Carl Sagan

Episode Date: September 22, 2008

Longtime partner Ann Druyan is proud of NASA's new Carl Sagan Fellowships. Bill Nye has a tribute for his old professor.Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A conversation with Ann Druyan about new honors for Carl Sagan, this week on Planetary Radio. Hi everyone, welcome to Public Radio's travel show that takes you to the final frontier. I'm Matt Kaplan of the Planetary Society. Everyone needs a hero, right? Today we get to talk about one of mine with his widow and longtime collaborator, Andrean. We'll celebrate NASA's announcement

of the Carl Sagan Postdoctoral Fellowships in Exoplanet Exploration. And we'll hear about other ways Anne is continuing her late husband's work. Bill Nye, the science and planetary guy, was one of Dr. Sagan's students. He'll share some of his memories as well as his excitement about the Sagan Fellowships. Much later, Bruce Betts will join us from the road where he's keeping an eye on the night sky. It won't be coming from the Mars microphone that the Planetary Society designed

specifically for conditions on the red planet. But we may still soon get to hear the first sounds ever transmitted from the surface of Mars. Planetary Society Coordinator of Science and Technology Emily Lakdawalla has just written about this small part of the Phoenix mission that may deliver big results. Her article is at planetary.org. I recently asked her for a quick overview. Emily, are we going to have to be really, really lucky to, for the first time, hear the sounds of Mars? Yes, I think we are, Matt.

A lot of things are going to have to go right for us to be able to hear any sounds from Mars. But we do have a chance, so it's worth giving it a shot. The story is that there's an instrument on Phoenix that has never been used yet. It's called MARDI. It's the Mars Descent Imager, and it was supposed to be used as Phoenix was coming in for a landing. But they found a conflict inside Phoenix's brain that if MARDI talked to Phoenix at the same time its gyros were talking to it, it might not pay attention to its gyros, which would be very bad during a descent. So they never turned on MARDI. And as a result, we didn't get descent images, but it also meant that we didn't get

sounds. The guys who built Marty, that's Mail and Space Science Systems, built a microphone into it, which was easy to do because Marty's brain was a Motorola processor built for cell phone applications. So there was already an audio input and they were planning on recording descent sounds, but no descent images meant no descent sounds. However, they've just gotten word that they're going to have permission to try to turn on Marty and get the first sounds from Mars if they can. But this is maybe not an ideal microphone. I guess it's also off the shelf like that processor.

That's right. It's off the shelf. It's designed for Earth applications, certainly not designed for air pressure that is only less than a percent that of Earth, so the sound does not transmit nearly as efficiently. There just aren't very many loud noises right now in Phoenix's environment, so it's really not clear that there's going to be anything loud enough for this microphone to pick up, but they are going to try.

I also read in your great article that we'll link to at planetary.org that they will try and pick up an image, and it's just possible that we'll see something that the other cameras on Phoenix can't show us. That's right. Marty is, first and foremost, an imager. It can't take audio without taking images. The two come hand in hand. So they'll get both image and recorded audio.

And it happens to be pointing in an area that's very close to that exciting holy cow ice feature that's underneath the lander. This area can be imaged by the robotic arm camera, but it's out of reach to the mast camera, so it'll be interesting to see what it looks like to Marty. If we hear anything from this microphone, what are we likely to hear? The most likely sounds that we'll hear are not actually sounds generated by Mars, but sounds generated by Phoenix itself. It's got a lot of moving parts. It's got that robotic arm and a rasp and vibrators inside the TIGA instrument. So they'll probably try operating one of those things while they're recording sound and see if they can pick any of that up.

Sure would be nice to hear a breeze, though. Listen, before we go, what's happening with Opportunity? There's big news with Opportunity this week. They just announced that they're planning, not only are they planning to leave Victoria Crater, but they're planning to really leave it. They are setting off on a drive that will be 12 kilometers in length, if they make it, all the way to a very big crater. And just to put that in perspective, Opportunity's wheels have only turned through 12 kilometers of odometry so far in its entire mission. So it's a big journey. Who

knows if Opportunity will make it, but they're going to give it a shot. Details in the blog? That's right. Emily, thanks again very much. You're welcome. Emily Lakdawalla is Science and Technology Coordinator for the Planetary Society. Her blog and article about the Marty microphone are at planetary.org. Q&A will return next week. I'll begin my conversation with Andrew and right after this tribute from Bill Nye. Hey, hey, Bill Nye, the planetary guy here. I had the great honor of attending a press conference where Dr. John Morris, who's the division director for astrophysics at NASA, presented a fellowship, a bunch of money for people who've gotten their PhDs in astrophysics so that they could pursue extraterrestrial planets, planets that would orbit other stars,

extrasolar planets, what my old professor Carl Sagan called exoplanets. The fellowship is named after Carl Sagan himself. Now, as you may know, I had Carl Sagan for astronomy, and this guy was compelling. You would sit in his lectures, and he would just keep you riveted, talking about things you could only imagine until you got your telescope dialed right in, and then you could just barely see them. At the top of Carl Sagan's stationery, it said the Center for Radiophysics. And in those days, the only way to really detect distant objects so far away that there was barely any light was to use radio waves. Well, now astronomers use radio waves, but they also use very, very elegant and accurate optical telescopes to detect the motion of distant stars caused by planets orbiting them. And just as Professor Carl Sagan predicted, there are hundreds,

perhaps thousands and millions and billions of planets. Planets are the rule, not the exception. So at this press conference, along with Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, they presented people of the future with the means, the money, to pursue the existence of extrasolar planets. And the amount of money is not very much, but if these people find a planet that might have liquid water and then perhaps harbor life. It would change the way we look at our world. So in Dr. Sagan's honor, I hope that future scientists will make discoveries that will astonish us all. And to that end, coming up next, Matt is going to interview Ann Drian, Carl Sagan's collaborator and widow. Thanks very much for listening.

I'm Bill Nye, the Planetary Guy, Vice President of the Planetary Society, and you're listening to Planetary Radio. And welcome back to Planetary Radio. The honors for Carl continue to roll in. This one, is it special? Oh, it's probably the most special of them all. First of all, I want to say what a pleasure it is to be talking with you again, Matt. Oh, thank you. It's always fun to talk to you. And it's mutual, believe me. Great. Yeah, this one means more to me

than any other. I'll say it flat out. And that is because, of course, it is kind of what I'm led to believe is a unanimous or almost unanimous judgment of the scientists who are working on exoplanet research. It means so much to me. I choke up when I think about it. It means so much to me for a number of reasons. One is that because Carl was such a brilliant communicator of science and so committed as a citizen of a democratic society to communicating science to the broadest possible public, it led to all kinds of charges that he wasn't a real scientist. And I think that's a reflection of our ambivalence about science and science's ambivalence about scientists interfacing with the public, communicating with them, and letting the public in on the secrets of the priesthood. of some small degree of pain to Carl that his scientific credentials were frequently questioned, especially when he took a stand on global warming, as he did in the early 80s,

questions of nuclear winter and the nuclear arms race. People would say, well, he's not a real scientist. Here comes NASA saying not only was he a real scientist, but he's in a category that only includes Hubble and Einstein. Because, of course, these fellowships, the Sagan Fellowships, are part of a suite of fellowships that include the Einstein and Hubble Fellowships. It's a pretty impressive company.

It is. You know, these are the brightest lights of 20th century space science. It speaks volumes. And I am so proud of this. It means so much more to me than anything, because obviously it means that new science, new knowledge, will be pursued in Carl's name on a subject that wasn't even considered reputable for a scientist to engage in when Carl was starting out.

So it represents a sea change in terms of our attitude towards exoplanet research, which essentially is really about everything else that's not this tiny pale blue dot in the universe. And it's just such a tribute to Carl as a scientist. I couldn't be more thrilled. Do you think he'd also have liked the fact that this is going to honor and assist very young scientists, up-and-comers? Absolutely. I know if Carl were alive today, he would be absolutely furious about the state of support for scientific research. He spoke so eloquently about how the greatest discoveries in science were not obviously mission-driven.

in science were not obviously mission-driven. It was not a case of a particular scientist trying to solve that problem and then solving it. The greatest discoveries were actually made by people who were looking for something entirely different, and they didn't know what they were going to find. And what they found, as he pointed out in his wonderful talk on the Maxwell equations and their significance, with something entirely different.

Nature is so much greater in our ability to predict what its revelations will be. So the idea of young scientists perhaps at a moment in their lives when they are at the height of their imaginative and creative powers, being supported by these Carl Sagan fellowships to study a subject that was one of the dearest to his heart is just, it's beyond great. I'm so proud of NASA. I'm so proud of the men and women of NASA who've been so generous and wise in honoring Carl this way. You know, we talk about what this does for promising young scientists. To me, another perhaps equally great honor to Carl are all of the scientists who are now in their prime, the guys who are leading space exploration, astronomy, and many other

fields who look to Carl as their role model, and many of them who consider themselves incredibly fortunate that they were actually his students. This thrills me because I remember Carl telling me many decades ago how the particular people who influenced him, his mentors, how they affected him. And now when I realize that the people who are conducting the exploration of Mars, of the outer solar system, doing all this amazing exploration and research, they were his students. I remember when they were grad students.

They would come over for dinner, And now they are leading youth missions. And this is really, I think, a fulfillment of Carl's fondest hope. It really gives you confidence in reality. It says that if you really work hard and use your gifts wisely, that no matter what happens at the time, ultimately people will recognize it and appreciate it for what it is. It's a great, just a tremendous vindication in some ways, and a wonderful honor. I'll tell you another thing that I see as a tremendous honor,

and I see it, and boy, does it benefit this program. And I think it can be traced directly back to Carl. Explaining their work to the public now seems to be an accepted part of nearly every scientist's job. Really, and you know, this comes straight out of Carl's political view, which was science belongs to everyone. We all, you know, support this research by paying our taxes and doing our jobs. And why should this be the preserve of a elite, of a privileged few? You know, there's been a very disturbing trend, especially of the last seven years, away from an admiration for science and the achievements of science toward a kind of magical thinking and a disrespect for the rules of evidence and the methodology of science.

And I think part of the manifold tragedy of this period is in part, I think, due to the fact that another Carl Sagan has not emerged, who is that sense that the rules of citizenship command us to share with our fellow citizens this knowledge because it will affect all of our lives. And we can't be informed decision makers in a democracy or a society that aspires to be a democracy if a few of us know things that are foreclosed to others. And that's one of the reasons, one of the very exciting things that I've been working on is the Carl Sagan Academy, which is the first charter public school, humanist public school in America, and it's located in Hillsborough County, Tampa, Florida, which is one of the most underserved communities in our nation.

It's kind of a great story, but one of the reasons that I'm working on it is because I know that if Carl were alive, this would be something that he would feel was very important, and that is getting science, science information to every community, not just the lucky ones. We'll be back with more from Andrean, head of Cosmos Studios, and longtime partner of Carl Sagan. This is Planetary Radio.

Hey, hey, Bill Nye the Science Guy here. I hope you're enjoying Planetary Radio. We put a lot of work into this show and all our other great Planetary Society projects. I've been a member since the disco era. Now I'm the Society's Vice President. And you may well ask, why do we go to all this trouble? Simple. We believe in the PB&J, the passion, beauty, and joy of space exploration. You probably do too, or you wouldn't be listening.

Of course, you can do more than just listen. You can become part of the action, helping us fly solar sails, discover new planets, and search for extraterrestrial intelligence and life elsewhere in the universe. Here's how to find out more. You can learn more about the Planetary Society

at our website, planetary.org slash radio, or by calling 1-800-9-WORLDS. Planetary Radio listeners who aren't yet members can join and receive a Planetary Radio Exploring New Worlds Welcome back to Planetary Radio. I'm Matt Kaplan. NASA announced the Carl Sagan Postdoctoral Fellowships for Exoplanet Exploration just a few days ago. His widow and longtime collaborator, Ann Drian, was part of the ceremony, and she's our guest today. Do you think that Carl suspected what we now know is the truth, that planets are the rule, not the exception across our galaxy? Absolutely.

And I remember having many a discussion with him. He wrote about it. And I remember, actually, the evening that the news about the discovery of Beta Pictoris, of his accretion disk, not a planet, but the beginning of finding that. Not a planet, but the beginning of finding that. You know, he thought that planets would be common, that making planets is what galaxies do. And I remember him saying that very often. He was convinced. You know, there were already extrasolar planets discovered in the mid-'90s before Carl's death.

And so he was already seeing that happen, but he knew that the rate would just continue to grow and grow and grow. And that as soon as we had the technological capability to look deeply in these places and these darknesses to find these worlds that were too small to see otherwise, that we would see them virtually everywhere. He was also an early advocate of the Kepler mission, which I think just was another component of what he took some heat for.

Now we see that mission preparing for launch. Exactly. That's another reason that this NASA Sagan Fellowship Program means so much to me. He was a very passionate advocate for Kepler. When I first heard the news that NASA was contemplating this great honor, I thought to myself, Carl, you know, what would it be like if Carl were alive and he could know this? And I realized that just the very fact of the idea that NASA was going to commit to science-driven research about exoplanets would have been sufficient for him. That would have been enough of, you know, something where when there was good news over the many years we were together, I just remember exactly how bouncy he was and how happy and how we would savor these good pieces of news. Launching the Kepler mission, he would be extremely sanguine about the future of NASA,

about the future of space science research here. He would be very excited and tremendously gratified. And we're almost out of time. Are you still looking forward to someday, we hope, another launch? Absolutely. You know where I'm going. I know where I'm going. I know where you're going. I've been working with Lou Friedman and others at the Planetary Society every way I know how, traveling to Korea, to various places to find the support that's necessary to launch this solar sail.

I see it as a kind of signal flare of the wise use of science and high technology. I don't know why there isn't four or five million dollars in this society to support an undertaking as mythic as writing the light. I kind of feel that if there isn't, then that's the least of our problems, the much deeper problem is that as a society we've lost our way. And so I'm going to keep looking everywhere I know to find that money because I think that we need a win, you know. We need something that we can point to. And this is such a beautiful blending of a great public interest organization,

as well as the space-faring know-how of decades, and a little company called Cosmos Studios that really is in it for what it will mean to our civilization. Anne, thank you for joining us again. Thank you for all you do and for keeping the flame alive. My pleasure, Matt. I always love talking with you, and I hope I get another chance soon. Oh, are you kidding? You can count on it.

Okay, great. Anne Druyan runs Cosmos Studios. She chairs the Carl Sagan Foundation, and she is working toward a whole new Cosmos series, that series of programs that starred her husband and collaborator, Carl Sagan, which I believe is still the highest-rated program that ever appeared on public television, I think. Am I right? Oh, of course.

And that is that Cosmos debuted on iTunes in mid-August. Wow. It's been number one for most of the time for nonfiction television series, for most of the time since then, without a single pay ad or anything. So I'm very proud to say that if you Google pale blue dot or if you Google Cosmos, you'll get a sense of the everlasting, enduring influence of an appeal of Cosmos, and we hope the new one will be as strong. And check out some of the books that are still in print.

You'll find them filling up a shelf at your local bookstore. Andrea, and again, thanks very much. Thank you. Andrea, and again, thanks very much. Thank you. Bye, Matt. Time for What's Up on Planetary Radio. Bruce Betts is, for the first time in quite a while, on the telephone calling us from his ancestral home up in Northern California. Yes, my ancestral home of Sacramento. Where you are going to a high school reunion?

Yes, it's even mine. That's wonderful. It's so much more fun than going to a high school reunion? Yes, it's even mine. That's wonderful. It's so much more fun than going to ones with lots of strangers. All the less pressure with those, I guess. I suppose. Have a wonderful time there. I guess you're leaving for it shortly, so we won't keep you. What's up in the night sky?

Well, we still have Jupiter looking fabulous in the evening sky, if you look off in the south in the early evening or towards the west towards mid-evening brightest star-like object in that part of the sky but we are getting some planet action that will be getting easier over the coming weeks we've got venus just after sunset low in the west and it'll be the bright star-like object there i saw it last night beautifully from the clear dark skies on the the outskirts of Sacramento. In the pre-dawn skies, Saturn's starting to appear. You can see it a half hour to an hour before dawn over in the east,

and that should get easier over the coming weeks. Very nice. Thank you, and I'm glad that you have clear skies up there. I'm envious. Let us go on to random space facts. We'll never be the same on the telephone, but go for it. Meteors, when meteors, these little bits of dust, sand, rocks, you know, giant asteroids, whatever, they have a wide range of velocities when they hit the atmosphere, a wide range of velocities when they hit the atmosphere, ranging from about 11 kilometers per second. Those are the nice slow ones to give you some perspective of what slow is, 11 kilometers per second. And the fast ones are up around 73 kilometers

per second. And much of that difference has to do with whether the Earth is in its orbit, running into these objects, or if they're chasing and catching up to Earth. So whether they're hitting your front windshield or your back windshield, there are various other factors. But overall, they're fast buggers, which is why they tend to make those bright, burning-up streaks in the night sky. In our trivia contest, we asked you about those big, giant, tracked vehicles,

the crawlers that transport these days the space shuttle from the Vehicle Assembly Building out to the launch pads. And we asked you, if you combine the two transporter crawlers, all the mileage they've had in their entire history, what would their odometers read? How far have they traveled in the last few decades? And how'd we do, Matt? Not that many answers for this one. I think we were making people work, but just about everybody who did respond came up with the same answer. Our winner is Phil Haddock, Philip Haddock of Holloman Air Force Base, who found this figure 2,526 miles. Now, he says that that was as of April 11, 2008.

And when he adds in the May STS mission, it might be about 2530. But just about everybody came up with 2,526. So, Phil, we're going to send you a shirt. Excellent. They've traveled roughly across the United States in all this time. Now, we did get some other units. Can I go through a couple of these? Oh, please do. Lindsey Dawson, good old Lindsey down under, said he figured it out as 199,790 track revolutions. Think about it. It'll hit you. That's also 1,704,000 liters of diesel oil, or as he puts it, diesels.

So the crawlers have a top speed of 1,136 diesels per hour. Kevin Hecht gave us the cruising speed of 2,700 furlongs per fortnight. That's abbreviated the FF, I believe. That's right. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. F slash F. Well, what do you have for us next time? Gosh, now I'm wishing I'd asked for more strange units,

but instead we're going to go to the land of constellations. In the night sky, in the standard set of constellations used by astronomers these days, which constellation represents a dolphin? Go to planetary.org slash radio. Find out how to enter and compete for a Planetary Radio t-shirt. Oh, and I want to see lots of entries for this one. Come on, folks. You got until the 29th.

That's Monday at 2 p.m. Pacific time, September 29th, to get us your answer. All right, everybody, go out there, look up at the night sky, and think about those fake owls that people put out to try to scare away other birds. Thank you, and good night. Those work up there in Sacramento? Oh, very effective. Birds here are terrified of plastic owls. All right, do you want to do a little bit of your alma mater fight song before you go?

We had no specific fight song, but we usually stole college fight songs. I did play them in the band, however. Oh, no kidding. Now, see, we've learned something new about you. What instrument did you play? Trumpet. All right, you know what that means. No.

Next time. Next time, a solo concert by Bruce Betts, the director of projects for the Planetary Society, who joins us every week here for What's Up. Go Marauders! Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California. Have a great week. Thank you.