Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Astronaut Owen Garriott on How to Explore the Solar System

Episode Date: January 31, 2005

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Conquering the Solar System with astronaut Owen Garriott, this week on Planetary Radio. Hi everyone, welcome back to Public Radio's travel show that takes you to the final frontier. I'm Matt Kaplan. Low Earth orbit was his home away from home on Skylab. More than 30 years later, Owen Garriott has helped create a plan intended to make us feel at home in much more of our planetary neighborhood.

He'll give us a taste of that blueprint for space exploration on this week's program. We'll also have Bruce Betts with another What's Up trivia contest. Here are some tantalizing trans-solar tidbits to tide you over. The European Space Agency is getting good press and good data from more than the Huygens probe on Titan. Ion-powered SMART-1 is gradually adjusting its orbit around the moon and has begun snapping pictures. You can see a sampling at planetary.org.

The Genesis solar wind sample return mission has risen from what many believed was its grave. The probe smacked into the Utah desert after its parachute failed to open last September. Just over four months later, the first of those unprecedented samples has now been delivered to scientists for study. And lastly, out there at the bitter edge of our solar system is Sedna, the strange red object discovered in November of 2003. Planetary scientist Alan Stern and colleagues have learned that the big planetoid, two-thirds the size of Pluto, may have formed out there in the region of the Kuiper Belt and may have

lots of company. I'll be back with Owen Garriott right after Emily takes us to Saturn's moon Titan for one more example of what Huygens is teaching us about that strange world. Hi, I'm Emily Lakdawalla with questions and answers. A listener asked, where does the methane on Titan come from? The origin of the methane in Titan's atmosphere is one of the key questions yet to be answered about Saturn's largest moon. Methane is a very simple, lightweight, hydrocarbon gas consisting of one carbon atom bonded to four hydrogen atoms. The problem with methane is that it shouldn't last

very long on Titan. Methane is continuously lost from Titan in two different ways. The problem with methane is that it shouldn't last very long on Titan. Methane is continuously lost from Titan in two different ways. The lightweight gas bobs up to the top of the atmosphere, where it gets stripped away by the solar wind. At the same time, the sun's ultraviolet rays break apart methane molecules, making them react to form more complex hydrocarbons like ethane. The amount of methane that's currently in Titan's atmosphere should be completely lost in only 50 million years, a tiny fraction of the age of the solar system. Therefore, Titan's methane must be continuously replenished.

Where does it come from? Stay tuned to Planetary Radio to find out. Owen Garriott became one of NASA's first scientist-astronauts when he was named to the program in 1965. He has done much more than live in space for two months. That 1973 stint on Skylab was twice as long as anyone had previously spent in Earth orbit. Several decades and many projects later, he was an obvious choice to co-lead a study commissioned by the Planetary Society. The resulting report, called Extending Human Presence into the Solar System,

was released a few months ago. We called up Dr. Garriott at his home in Huntsville, Alabama, for an overview. Owen Garriott, thanks so much for joining us on Planetary Radio. Pleased to, Matt. You took on a pretty big task, you and a distinguished team of experts who created this report that was done independent of NASA. Well, it was not only independent of NASA, it was actually independent of the Planetary Society as well,

because your executive director invited several of us to come up with an independent report on where we thought NASA and our country should head in the task of exploring the solar system. And this really was a very capable group. I mean, we won't go into all the names, although they are on the Planetary Society website, planetary.org, and we'll have a link to that right where we put this they are on the Planetary Society website, planetary.org, and we'll have a link to that right where we put this radio show on the website. But at least we should mention Michael Griffin, your co-team leader. Exactly.

He is now the head of the Space Science Department at Applied Physics Laboratory at Johns Hopkins. Something over 10 years ago now, he was actually the associate administrator at NASA in charge of the exploration program. So he's got a very close connection for a good many years with the activity that we described in this report. The final report that you and your colleagues created is very detailed and pretty dense. There's a lot of stuff packed into something over 30 pages. We certainly don't have time to go through it all here. Again, it is available on the website, planetary.org.

But can you give us sort of the executive summary? I mean, I know that you came up with, it is an ambitious, but I guess in the opinion of your team, a very doable three-phase plan. That's correct. At least we would like to think that it's quite doable, and actually within the cost constraints that NASA is apt to have placed upon it over the next several decades. And so that's one of the tasks that we kept uppermost in mind about how can we design a program to enable us to explore the full solar system, not just the moon, not just Mars, but the capability to explore asteroids,

Lagrange points, other objects within the solar system, can do all of that and still stay within the financial bounds that NASA is apt to have to live with. And that's the reason that you've mentioned it does involve three phases of activity, and each of them are somewhat different than NASA is now planning, but we think actually they have a lot of merit and could actually save money in the long run by doing it in the ways that we've described. To describe a little bit in more detail what the Phase 1 should look like, we're talking

about getting, first of all, the capability to get our citizens and other members of the space community into and out of low Earth orbit, which we can't do right now until we get the orbiter returned to flight, hopefully in the next few months. But the first stage of this activity, we plan to actually retire the orbiter, which has now been very active use for well over two decades, which has now been very active use for well over two decades, and hopefully retire it even before the 2010 date that NASA has intended to use, but only after several important milestones have been met.

First of all, we need to assure access to LEO, low Earth orbit, before the orbiter is retired, which could only be done when the crew excursion vehicle currently planned by NASA is actually completed and built and ready to fly. The second thing we need to do is to make sure that all of the U.S. commitments to our international partners have been met in a way that is satisfactory to our partners in this endeavor for ISS. And so we've made those commitments. We need to stand by them.

And then as soon as we can, retire the orbiter. In order to do that within the next six years, we need to get the fairly simple crew excursion vehicle designed and built and ready to fly in order to avoid any hiatus in our ability to reach low Earth orbit. in order to avoid any hiatus in our ability to reach low Earth orbit. It was our opinion that the ISS, International Space Station, does indeed still have a good many objectives for exploration that require our crew members to go back to that location. And so as soon as we can, with the space station being complete,

I think we'll still want to visit it for such things as establishing what the mix of crew members should be, their personal compatibility and abilities to work together, and a variety of life sciences experiments oriented toward long-duration flight, which we will have to still utilize in going to and from Mars. And then the final part of this first stage is to consider what sort of a vehicle we want to use to carry the crew members, transport the crew into and out of low Earth orbit positions. And some of those would be, of course, to the ISS. We think that NASA should look very carefully at using a single stage solid rocket booster, perhaps increased from four to five segments, but basically the kind of rocket that has been used for the last full period

that the orbiter has been flying, actually. You might even argue it has never had a failure, but if you consider the one back on Challenger was flown when the environmental conditions were probably out of specification. And so actually the solid rocket booster has been a very reliable vehicle, and we could use it as the first stage with a liquid second stage to launch the crew excursion vehicle into low Earth orbit. Has the recent success of little tiny non-orbital spacecraft,

of course I'm thinking specifically of Spaceship One, has this changed or amplified your thinking in any way about the best way to put humans in space? I would word it a little differently. I don't think that it's changed my thinking as much as it has changed the public's thinking about access to space. Now, flying on a suborbital mission is a giant leap short of actually getting into low Earth orbit. Nevertheless, it's a start, and it's brought it to the public's attention,

where really now it's possible for people to go in and out of suborbital flight at a price tag that a fairly substantial fraction of the population can afford. And in addition to that, I think the robotic exercises, in particular, on Mars with Spirit and Opportunity, and the recent success of the missions to Saturn and moons, has really promoted and provoked a lot of interest in the public. And I think that's good for all of the space program, whether it's a portion of a man's phase or the automated phase. It's good for all of us. That's Owen Garriott. He was the co-team leader that developed a report called Extending Human Presence into the Solar System.

Of course, he is also a former astronaut for the United States, spent a couple of months up on Skylab. If we don't have time to talk about that in this visit, we certainly will in the near future. We're going to pick up, though, with Phase 2 and Phase 3 of this groundbreaking report that Owen helped develop right after we take this break. This is Buzz Aldrin. When I walked on the moon, I knew it was just the beginning of humankind's great adventure in the solar system. That's why I'm a member of the Planetary Society, the world's largest space interest group. The Planetary Society is helping to explore Mars. We're tracking near-Earth asteroids and comets.

We sponsor the search for life on other worlds, and we're building the first-ever solar sail. You can learn about these adventures and exciting new discoveries from space exploration in The Planetary Report. The Planetary Report is the Society's full-color magazine. It's just one of many member benefits. You can learn more by calling 1-877-PLANETS. That's toll-free, 1-877-752-6387. And you can catch up on space exploration news and developments

at our exciting and informative website, PlanetarySociety.org. The Planetary Society, exploring new worlds. Our special guest on Planetary Radio this week is former astronaut Owen Garriott, who was the co-team leader that developed a report called Extending Human Presence into the Solar System. And in the first part of our conversation, we heard about the first phase of this three-phase program. Owen, go on and talk about what happens next. We're now getting back into low-Earth orbit. We've put the orbiter aside.

We need, what, something bigger, a heavy lift vehicle to get up there? That will be a part of the program. And in this second phase, which is roughly the period from 2011 to 2015, we need to design an improved or upgraded crew excursion vehicle, which has the possibility to travel out of low Earth orbit and out to the various objective or destinations throughout the solar system. To put all that mass into low Earth orbit, we do need to develop a heavy-lift vehicle. Prime candidate, maybe the best,

would be one that is based upon a derivation from shuttle components, because we've already had 25 years of experience with putting one very heavy-lift object, that is the orbiter itself, some 200,000 to 250,000 pounds into orbit. It is probably the simplest and least expensive way to build on that capability to put up the heavier items. And the heavier items, in addition to the improved crew excursion vehicle, would include a laboratory, a habitable module in which the crew members could live,

someplace for all of the consumables like food, water, anywhere from one-month to two-year flights throughout the solar system, and finally, a propulsion module. Now, if we have the improved CEV, the manned crew excursion vehicle, and the various units that I just described that have to be taken along if we're going to travel around the solar system, think of all of the destinations that have just described that have to be taken along if we're going to travel around the solar system think of all of the destinations that have just now been enabled for example

we can go to the moon again go in orbit around the moon first of all to uh... look at the uh... polar uh... environment the backside of the moon conductor robotic surveys and probably didn't bring back samples uh... for analysis on board in the laboratory. We can visit Lagrange points, which are these rather unique gravitational locations where objects tend to remain with very little extra thrust required to stay there for years at a time.

Spots that have been proposed for big space stations and solar power stations for decades. That is correct. solar power stations for decades. That is correct. And so these are very unique spots that have a very interesting attraction to various parts of the scientific community. Let me ask you about another one, which I think you mentioned just in passing for a moment, and I bet you're getting to, and that is going to Mars but not landing. There must have been a few people who've heard you talk about this

as you've traveled around the country and said, go to Mars and just orbit after going all that ways? Yes, I have had that comment. In fact, some of them, even from our study group, astronauts who think that if they're going to spend a year or even two years going, they wouldn't want to stop it just on the moon. But on the other hand, that's very much like we did with Apollo 8 and Apollo 10. We didn't try to make the landing in the very first attempt to go to the moon.

And there are a lot of things of scientific and research interest that can be done by stopping just short at the moons of Mars, which are Phobos and Deimos. And there actually is a lot safer to only stop on the moons rather than going all the way down through the Mars atmosphere and into the rather deep potential well or gravitational well to land on the surface. And in my mind, it makes a very good way station. And most of the people who think, as you just described, about, gee, if we go all that way, let's go the last few hundred kilometers, haven't really thought about the advantages

in stopping short for a while, gathering our forces together, see where we are, run remote probes, instead of having to wait 20 minutes for a round trip to make the next command to the rovers, for example, a spirit and opportunity now have to do on the Mars surface. You're only a few seconds away from controlling the rovers. And so you can actually make a good many more practical use, productive use of your controlling capabilities by being on a nearby moon. You also can identify samples. You can probably bring those samples from the Mars surface up to your laboratory on Phobos and Deimos,

show the pictures to the ground with a 20-minute time delay, decide which ones are more important to bring back for analysis here on Earth. And you could also probably just step out of your landing vehicle on the surface of Phobos or Deimos, where the gravitational attraction is extremely small, and pick up pieces of Mars all over the place. Because it's so nearby that I think everyone would agree that there must be lots of Mars laying around on these two nearby moons.

Sure, since a few pieces have made it to Earth, there must be a lot more that have made it to Mars' own moons. Exactly. We must be well into Phase 3 of the plan now, and I hate to say it, of course, with this little teaser regarding the report that you've developed, but we're almost out of time. Will it once again encourage people to visit the website and read the executive summary or the entire well over 30-page report. It is titled Extending Human Presence into the Solar System.

You obviously are an enthusiastic booster of this plan. You have been going around telling people about why it should be considered and have more of those opportunities coming up. That's certainly true. In fact, just the night before last, I was speaking to a simulant conference here in Huntsville, where I'm located, lunar simulants trying to develop materials which will look like and act like lunar regolith. Also, Lou Friedman and I will be together at another roadmap planning session in Washington in less than two weeks. There are a number of occasions and opportunities for people to hear more about these possibilities.

Owen Garrett, let me ask you as we are almost out of time. You spent, what, 32 years ago this year. You spent two months living in space on Skylab. This year, you spent two months living in space on Skylab. Are there things that we learned or should have learned from Skylab that we could have taken advantage of long before now? As a matter of fact, there are. I shouldn't make a plural, because there's more than one. Things that we should have learned.

For example, Skylab showed that it's best to put up the whole space station all in one launch, if you can, or in the most very one or two launches. Well, NASA chose not to do that with the space station. They wanted to put it up all in the orbiter payload bay, 20,000 to 40,000 pounds at a time, and we ended up with 20 to 40 launches of the orbiter being required to do that. So I think that's one of the things that we demonstrated in the Skylab program over 30 years ago that we failed to utilize in the development of the ISS, Space Station Program. So that's only one, but we also learned a lot about

living in space, the necessity of exercising about an hour and a half, two hours a day, and that if you do exercise that long every day, you can maintain good body condition, a healthy cardiovascular system almost indefinitely. There's probably nothing wrong with going into weightlessness flight all the way to Mars and back as long as we maintain the proper exercise regime. So that's what I think we are doing right and are planning for properly for the future. Oh, and we are out of time. I hope you will come back. I would love, and I'm sure our audience would love to hear more about your experiences living in space, which is certainly something that the plan that you and your team helped develop, something that will be the website, right where you will find the link to this radio show. You may be there right now if you're on the website. Otherwise,

go to planetary.org and look for the radio show. That's the easiest way to tell you. And Owen, once again, thanks very much for joining us on Planetary Radio. Hope you'll come back. Enjoy talking with you, Matt. And we will be back right after this return visit from Emily. And we will be back right after this return visit from Emily. I'm Emily Lakdawalla, back with Q&A. The problem of how there can be large amounts of methane in Titan's atmosphere, despite the fact that Titan should lose all that methane within 50 million years, is what led scientists to propose that Titan must be hiding methane oceans underneath

its clouds. It turns out that the temperature and pressure conditions near Titan's surface are very close to the so-called triple point of methane, the Goldilocks condition where the substance can exist as a solid, liquid, and gas at the same time. Add a little bit of ethane, which forms when the sun's ultraviolet rays cause two methane molecules to react together, and methane oceans could be quite stable. The problem is, a hard look at Titan through optical telescopes on Earth and Cassini have so far failed to find telltale signs of open bodies of liquid methane on the surface of Titan. Methane lakes on Titan seemed to be in jeopardy until Huygens landed. Minutes after the warm Huygens spacecraft settled on the cold ground of Titan,

methane gas bubbled up from underground. There is hope for methane reservoirs on Titan yet. They may lie just below the surface, percolating among Titan's icy rocks. Got a question about the universe? Send it to us at planetaryradio at planetary.org. And now here's Matt with more Planetary Radio. Time for What's Up on Planetary Radio. We are rejoined by the Director of Projects for the Planetary Society, Dr. Bruce Betts.

Hey there. Hi there. Ho there. Hey there to you too. How are you doing? Hunky-dory swell. What's up for us this week? Well, in the night sky, those planets are just disappearing like crazy. You might be able to get a shot at Venus just before sunrise, off in the same direction as the sun, but it's going to be tough, and this is pretty much your last chance for a while.

But take heart. We've got Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn all visible in the pre-dawn sky, although Saturn's starting to go away. You have to look a while before dawn. But hey, go out in the evening sky and look at Saturn. It's rising around sunset. Just look in the east, you'll see Saturn. It's hanging out near Castor and Pollux in Gemini, and will be getting up much higher. It's a great early evening sight, looking a little yellowish and bright. Morning sky, you can see Jupiter is the brightest star-like object up there right now.

And Mars looking dim and reddish. And you will see it on February 5th as near the crescent moon. As near the crescent moon? Near the crescent moon. February 5th. By the light of the silvery moon, I think is the line you want.

Exactly. Okay. I'll not the line you want. Exactly. Okay. I'll not sing right now. Maybe later. On to this week in space history on February 5th, 1971. An important date. Alan Shepard hit golf balls on the moon as part of Apollo 14. Four.

On to random space fact. We go to Uranus today. Uranus, of course, tilted on its side compared to all the other planets. What this does is it has kind of a weird implication, which is you end up having a 21-year-long summer and a 21-year-long winter, in which case they're not only really long, which you can get on some of the other outer planets, but also you're just cooking the sunlit summer side, and the opposite side is not seeing any daylight at all. Cooking it, that's a little strong for Uranus, isn't it? Well, okay, sure.

I mean, it's not like surfs up for 21 years. Yeah, sure. You know, the sunlight is like 30 times weaker than it is here on Earth. But it's all it gets. All right. Cooking may be too strong, perhaps. Gently warming it. But I can say, and this part is true, that the winter side is chilling hard.

That part is not an exaggeration. Okay, on to trivia. Having to do with Titan, where there is methane and ethane hanging out. It said methane's chemical formula is CH4. What is the chemical formula for ethane? Lots of good little chemists out there who listen to Planetary Radio. And, you know, you added, I don't think it was a mistake because we did get a few responses. You said, tell us the chemical structure and make us laugh.

And a couple of them actually attempted to do that. Excellent. Thank you. Now, here is not our winner. Stephen Uddy, who I think that's how you pronounce it, he was our winner last week. He describes ethane to us a little bit, and he says that scientists are excited about also detecting methane on Titan. I have detected methane on Earth, and though I have reacted to it, I do not recall ever being excited about it.

Seems like one of those you-had-to-be-there kinds of things, he says. So draw your own conclusions. Well, let me dispel a rumor. This should have been the random space fact. The random Earth fact. Methane is actually odorless. Methane is an odorless gas. So although it is associated with unpleasant smells,

including natural gas, which is primarily methane, they add the nasty smell to natural gas. So you'll smell something nasty and know it's leaking. But methane itself, odorless, don't blame methane. I think he may have had yet another form of natural gas. I think he may have. But again, that's not causing the odor. Well, here's our real winner, and it is, you ready, Will Pierce.

Will Pierce of Washington, D.C., who gave us the chemical formula for ethane, C2H6, sometimes also expressed as CH3-CH3. And he said, if only Titan had a little more oxygen, hyphen CH3. And he said, if only Titan had a little more oxygen, just one extra oxygen atom added to each molecule of ethane, replacing a hydrogen H atom with a hydroxyl OH, and Titan would be covered in lakes of, that's right, boys and girls, ethanol, the active ingredient of wine, beer, and other spirits. I can imagine the astronaut eagerly stomping out into the lake of ethanol. That's one small swig for man, one giant keg stand for mankind. And he's even written in here. He says he doubts the sample return containers would have much left to study.

Well, Will, you won. We're going to get a Planetary Radio t-shirt out to you. And thank you for making us giggle. Thank you. What was that thing you wrote there, Matt? That sound you made. Oh, this one. Yes. You did that very nicely. Thank you. I'm curious to see how it's spelled. you for making us giggle thank you what was that thing you wrote there matt that sound you made oh this one yes oh you did that very nicely thank you curious to see how it's spelled okay what else

what else you got anyone else well we do have we also got a correct answer although he is not the winner this week i should say he and his son herb and john from lapel lapel indiana who did have the answer correct and so so keep entering her. But we wanted to mention this note because he says, My son Jonathan and I listen to your program every week as part of our homeschool science class curriculum. Keep up the great shows, he adds. As should everyone, don't you think? Isn't that something?

And by the way, it's John's birthday in about four or five days, so we wish him a happy birthday. Happy birthday. And, John, there will be's John's birthday in about four or five days, so we wish him a happy birthday. Happy birthday. And, John, there will be a quiz, so study up. All right, everyone, go out there, look up in the night sky, and think about the birds flying overhead that you're not seeing. New trivia question. Oh, really? Sorry.

People live for this. Okay, I just thought they deserved a rest. All right, new trivia contest tied to our guest from this week. I ask you, on what date was Skylab launched? Oh, excellent. But wait, that's too simple. Also tell us, what date did it re-enter the Earth's atmosphere? Give us two dates, get your Planetary Radio t-shirt,

and go to planetary.org slash radio. And you've got until the 7th of February, Feb 7, Monday at noon Pacific time, to get us that entry. And maybe you'll be the next winner of that t-shirt. And now, Bruce, we're out of time. All right. Now, everyone, go out there, look up in the night sky,

and think about the birds you're not seeing or the ones you are seeing, and open your eyes and have a thank you and good night. He's Bruce Betts, the director of projects for the Planetary Society. He's here every week, but, you know, you can't have a big finish every week. You can't? Dah-da-da-da-da-da-da! Yeah! I am so embarrassed.

I realized right after Bruce and I recorded that edition of What's Up that we had skipped a trivia contest. We'll make things right next time when I hope you'll be back for more of Planetary Radio. Have a great week.