Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Bill Nye the Science Guy and Sandy Moondust!

Episode Date: June 23, 2003

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This is Planetary Radio. America. But did you know Bill is making scientific contributions to our exploration of Mars? You'll hear about it in a minute. And later today, we'll all meet Sandy Moondust, the other Lego astrobot. She's about to leave for the Red Planet on the second Mars exploration rover. Back with Bill Nye, right after Emily tells us how we know those meteorites from Mars are the genuine item. Hi, I'm Emily Lakdawalla with questions and answers. A listener asked, news reports about meteorites from Mars claim to show that Mars had a warmer, wetter environment in the past, or even that it had life.

But how do scientists know that the meteorites came from Mars? Chemical analysis of meteorites found on Earth can reveal their Martian origin. We have direct observations of the chemical composition of the Martian atmosphere from the Viking landers. These observations include measurements of the amounts of different isotopes of hydrogen and oxygen. Because Mars has lost much of its original atmosphere to space, heavy isotopes of hydrogen and oxygen are Because Mars has lost much of its original atmosphere to space, heavy isotopes of hydrogen and oxygen are more concentrated in Mars' atmosphere than Earth's atmosphere.

When we measure the isotopes of hydrogen and oxygen from water and gas pockets trapped deep within the meteorites, the chemical signature is very similar to that observed by the Viking spacecraft on Mars. What else can we learn from Mars meteorites? Stay tuned to Planetary Radio to find out. So, Bill, you know they sometimes stand up and say, now here's somebody who needs no introduction at all,

and then they give a ten-minute introduction. Well, if you want. It's Bill Nye the Science Guy, everybody. Bill, welcome to Planetary Radio. It's so goodye the Science Guy, everybody. Bill, welcome to Planetary Radio. It's so good to be orbiting. And we're glad that you're orbiting with us. Tell us what you've been up to lately.

I think you've had some very busy days. Well, I have been working on a new show, but more importantly this week, the second Mars Exploration Rover, MERB, will be headed for, guess where? That's right, Mars. And so we will have a chance, perhaps, to look for water and signs of life seven months hence. And that is very exciting. Now, of course, we want to talk about the TV show, too, which maybe we'll do after the break. But I find it interesting that here you are with a TV show to promote,

but you immediately jump to talking about the next Mars exploration rover to the red planet. Well, it's because it's leaving this week. That's right. I mean, I'd love to talk about me and all about me. Hey, who isn't? But I is the most common pronoun in English and in any language. And so we're going to Mars with this big rocket, and we're hoping to land there, bounce around on the surface, open the thing up, drive around with the rover, and look for water and signs of life.

And of course, we'll be reckoning the passage of time with the most charming little sundial, hoping that everyone worldwide will participate in the passion, beauty, and joy of planetary exploration by taking a moment to look at the shadows of sticks. Let's talk about that sundial, because you were the one who suggested to a previous guest on this show, I think you said, hey, that's a sundial. Yeah, I apparently may not have been the first to observe that it could be used as a sundial, but I was the first to really pound my fist on the table and go, we have to do this. We have to take a few moments and do this. And I knew a couple things about sundials. I knew enough about sundials, as the saying goes, to make me dangerous. The story begins, of course, with World War II. My father was on Wake Island, which is

quite a remote place in the Pacific Ocean. And they were bombed on December 7th, and they held out for a couple of weeks, and he was captured, and he was taken to the mainland of China. So he had four years with no electricity or hardly any, and he had ample time to look at the stars at night and construct happy little sundials and so-called noon poles at the various places they were kept. And so he imbued me with his passion for sundials. So I was in this meeting at Cornell University,

and they were proposing to have the radiometric calibration target, which is a circle with a stick. And the stick casts a shadow. You point the camera at the circle and the shadow, The stick casts a shadow. You point the camera at the circle in the shadow, and you can estimate very, very accurately the true color of the objects you're looking at without having errors introduced by the pinkness of the Martian sky on account of the Martian wind and the Martian dust.

So I pointed out that the stick could be used as a sundial. We don't need a triangle sticking up the way you might have in North America or in Europe or Islamic countries. You need just a stick. That's all you need. It's going to be fabulous. We'll put our lines on the web. It's going to be great.

I know just a guy. I know Woody Sullivan, Woodruff T. Sullivan, astronomer at the University of Washington, renowned for that Earth at Night, those posters that are just white dots of all the human lights that are visible from space. The same guy is an expert on sundials. Steve Squires, the principal investigator of the Mars Exploration Rover, kind of thought this was charming. And Jim Bell, who's designed the panoramic camera, thought this was fabulous. So we hired John Lomberg, the guy who designed the scenics,

I guess is the expression for the old Cosmos show by Carl Sagan. We got eight of us together, and we created this image, and it's going to be on the deck of the rover, rovers. Point the camera at it. Every day you'll be able to tell what time it is on Mars. I've had people at the Society. Actually, I don't remember if it was people at the Society or Steve Squires. Tell me.

The Planetary Society. Yes, that they were amazed that this little project made it through. Actually, I don't remember if it was people at the Society or Steve Squires. Tell me. The Planetary Society. Yes, that they were amazed that this little project made it through. Well, I think because we didn't spend any money on it. The people involved just kind of got it done on our own time. And it doesn't take up any more room than the radiometric calibration target. It doesn't have any effect. It's somewhat lighter than the original proposal. I did the vibration analysis on it. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine.

I believe you. So there was no risk to the mission, except a risk or cost to the mission, except the thing takes up so-called real estate on the solar panels. uh... people agreed that this real estate one to two percent was worth it uh... because yet to calibrate the camera someplace in the proudest dates back from the biking missions in the first disco era and uh...

and uh... this track this shadow casting stick uh... taking up a proper number of pixels uh... worked in nineteen ninety seven as well on the Sojourner Rover. So we slipped it in, as you pointed out, and I think everyone will benefit because people around the world will be able to go to the website. You know, the record, apparently, the record for most hits to a website in a single day, not some lingerie catalog like you might think. No, it was the Sojourner rover back in 1997. And so we're hoping that we'll get that same enthusiasm.

You know, it was Eratosthenes, a librarian in Egypt, who first realized, apparently, first realized the Earth was round based on the shadows of sticks. Shadow of sticks, the shadows of sticks are powerful things, if you know what to think about. A very big part of this is not just as it's functional, and you've basically said this, but that it is something that may capture the imaginations of people. That's right. If the rover itself doesn't do a powerful job of that. Well, the rover itself will be fabulous.

And just think, Matt, if we found signs of life, fossil bacteria on Mars, that would change everything. Talk about the G7 summit or whatever. We're going to have to take a global meeting if we find fossil bacteria. But anyway, the sundial, by tradition, sundials have a motto. I only count the sunny hours. Time flies. I count all the sunny hours and the last one kills.

Stuff like that. Yes. But this one is two worlds, one sun. That's right. We're brothers. We're sisters, Martians and Earthlings. We all orbit the same star. Isn't that just to fill you with PB&J, passion, beauty, and joy?

It actually does. Now, as some people hear this, you may already be at the Kennedy Space Center with folks like Bruce Betts, a regular on this show, because you're going to see off that rover. That's right. And I'll be conducting a couple teacher workshops for science teachers, math teachers in North America to get revved up on the fundamentals of sundialing, of gnomonics, as we say, the gnomon being the stick or the triangle, the thing that guides you. I'll be doing some teacher workshops on that, and we'll be watching the launch, man. It's a rocket.

What's cooler than that? We have reached that point where we need to take a quick break, and we haven't even talked about your other involvement with the Planetary Society or that little TV project that you're up to now. Oh, that kooky thing. I'll talk to you in a few moments. We will. And Planetary Radio will be back with Bill Nye, the science guy, right after this.

This is Buzz Aldrin. When I walked on the moon, I knew it was just the beginning of humankind's great adventure in the solar system. That's why I'm a member of the Planetary Society, the world's largest space interest group. The Planetary Society is helping to explore Mars. We're tracking near-Earth asteroids and comets. We sponsor the search for life on other worlds, and we're building the first-ever solar sail.

You can learn about these adventures and exciting new discoveries from space exploration in the Planetary Report. The Planetary Report is the Society's full-color magazine. It's just one of many member benefits. You can learn more by calling 1-877-PLANETS. That's toll-free, 1-877-752-6387. And you can catch up on space exploration news and developments at our exciting and informative website, PlanetarySociety.org. The Planetary Society, exploring new worlds.

Bill Nye the Science Guy is our special guest on this week's edition of Planetary Radio. As you hear this, he may actually be at the Kennedy Space Center where, who knows, maybe he's just watched the launch of the Mars Exploration Rover B, now renamed Opportunity, I believe. Bill, let's talk about what else you do for the Planetary Society. You're on the board of directors. Yes, through some sort of clerical error. I went to Cornell University, and I had Carl Sagan for astronomy. So I think when you are graduated from Cornell back in the day, two or three seconds after you leave, you're on the mailing list of various mailing lists of various sorts. And one of them was the Planetary Society.

I started reading the Planetary Report, and I thought, this is quite cool. This little magazine is really informative and good-looking and fills me reading the Planetary Report, and I thought, this is quite cool. This little magazine is really informative and good-looking and fills me with the passion, beauty, and joy that we all have for astronomy. The heavens have charmed humankind since the beginning of humans, I imagine. And so I got on this mailing list. I participated by paying dues for 20 years. And then Lou Friedman, who was an associate of Carl Sagan, met me at Carl Sagan's memorial service in Ithaca, New York,

and he invited me to join the board. And so since then, I have been honored. It is a thrill to hang out with these guys that really are rocket scientists. You are in good company, and you guys get to have quite a bit to do, I think, with the direction of the planetary system. Oh, yeah. What we try to do is try to keep the thing solvent when we're not having successful missions. But for those of you listening, I encourage you to join the Planetary Society.

It is the only civilian space organization that is worldwide. Anybody can join. And our goal is to explore space and look for other worlds and other life. I'll tell you something funny that happened today because I was at the Planetary Society office to tape Bruce Betts, among others, for his segment that's coming up that he does every week. And we had to set up the audio equipment on the table out back, the conference table. The table was covered with blueprints for the solar sail. Oh, the solar sail is quite cool.

Well, and I said to somebody, you know, this has got to be the greatest organization in the world. It's a fairly small organization in terms of staff, but where else do you have to clear off the conference table, get the plans for your own space probe off of the table so that you can do something else? Yeah, it's exciting. See, so everybody, the idea is these guys, guys and gals, who have been working in space science for many years,

have very close ties with the Russians. In fact, in a sense, the lives of our astronauts were saved by Russian Soyuz craft that went up to the international space station brought these people down united states had no spacecraft they could get up there anyway so with this tradition uh... the planetary society hopes to use a russian rocket originally intended to shoot

to intercontinental ballistic missiles of submarines to launch a sail into space that will be pushed by the force of photons. It's real. It's real. And you, my friends, can participate. And the reason we're able to do it is the cost compared to human-powered flight is not infinitesimal, but it's a small fraction. And I remind you, these Mars rovers, headed for Mars right now, cost all in for both rovers $800 million, maybe $700-something million.

That's less than a cup of coffee per taxpayer. Come on, jump on. It is exciting to explore space with distant objects, with robots. It's such a bargain to the taxpayer. And we all say, well, we know we don't need to be exploring space. We should be paying teacher salaries. Well, yes, we should be paying teacher salaries. But it's not a question of paying salaries or exploring space.

What you've got to do is find a way to do both. It is the human destiny to explore. We wouldn't be here if our ancestors weren't, if you will, obsessed with exploring. So it's an exciting time, an exciting time. There's three probes en route to Mars, the Beagle and two Mars rovers. So anyway, with all that said, Bruce, Matt. Hey, Bruce, if you're listening, greetings. He will be.

Matt. Bill, your cosmos full of fans would not forgive us if we didn't have you tell us a little bit about that new television show. Oh, the new show is called The Eyes of Nye. And it's a scientific perspective of the world. So this show is for people in general, people old enough to vote. The old show, the Bill Nye the Science Guy show, is for elementary science education. Half the viewers were adults. Welcome.

Turn it up loud. Blast it. Yes. But there are big issues that we need to address, especially from a scientific standpoint. And so we're going to do genetically modified food. We have global climate change. We have nuclear power. We have, dare I say it, astrobiology, which you're never supposed to say your favorite,

but should be a pretty doggone good episode. We interviewed the mythic and charming Seth Shostak. We interviewed the mythic Deborah Fisher, who is on the team that verified the first extrasolar other outside the sun planet, and she has since identified about 100. We had her on the show, and she's charming and cool. And then we give you the sort of the rudiments of astrobiology, the importance of the habitable zone, some

carbonates, the importance of carbonates, and we went to the desert with Chris McKay, a NASA scientist who knows just where to turn over rocks to find bacteria growing underneath them. If the bacteria were on the surface of the rocks, on top of the rocks, they'd be dead. But by being under the rocks, about 1% of the sunlight penetrates, goes right through the rocks. There's just enough moisture there for those bacteria to live. So he reasons, if these things can live in the desert on Earth, perhaps on primordial Mars, where it was once quite wet, there were similar bacteria extant doing their Martian thing, and perhaps we could find them. And then we would have to question, where did we come from exactly?

Did we come from Mars? So this kind of thing is on the astrobiology show, on the Eyes of Nye, which should start airing on public broadcasting this coming fall. You know, we start TV seasons in the fall. It's summertime. It's time to shoot rovers and make shows, and next fall we'll air them. Not long ago I had Michael Shermer of the Skeptic Society. I love that Michael Shermer. He just nailed it on the Eyes of Nye pseudoscience show.

We talked about his experience. He had a great time with you. Oh, good. We had a great time with him. So everybody, Michael Shermer shows up. He meets these total strangers. He does a palm reading. He does a tarot card reading.

He does an astrological reading. Then he challenges himself and does two so-called cold readings. No props. Just looks him in the eye. What are you thinking about? Wait, wait, I'm psychic, I'll tell you. And he's not psychic. And he was rated very highly by these people.

They all thought he was just charming and insightful and a genius. It just shows you how susceptible people are to the belief in paranormal phenomena when there are none. We want to believe. That's what I talked with him about. Yeah. You say that this new show is basically directed at adults, but you're not going to turn away 10-year-olds. No, no, no. But we do have a show coming up on the evolution of sex. Oh, that'll get a big audience.

Well, it could. and it's quite, it is really fascinating. One of the fundamental questions in life science and biology is, why do you have sex? I mean, look at the bacteria. They are way more successful than we are. They don't have to, I mean, they exchange a few genes through their little pipes and stuff, but mostly they divide themselves in half asexually. They just split in half. In a sense, way more successful than the big animals and plants that we are,

and parsley and elephants and the huge animals like bumblebees. So the fundamental question is, why do you bother? And I think on the show, we answer it. We are out of time. How can people learn more about the show? Well, go to the PBS websites. There are various. Of course, go to BillNye.com, NyeLabs.com.

That's the same website. But the airing times, remember, this is public broadcasting. This stuff isn't worked out, I won't say until the last minute, but later on. And they don't do the same time in every market. Check your local listings. Hey, you guys, but later on. And they don't do the same time in every market. Check your local listings. Hey, you guys, thanks for listening. Matt, this is just way too much fun. We're going to Mars.

Yes, we are. I've got to fly. Bill Nye the Science Guy. There he goes, everybody, off to the red planet. Bill Nye the Science Guy has been our guest on this week's Planetary Radio, and we'll continue in a moment. I'm Emily Lakdawalla, back with Q&A. What can we learn about Mars from Mars meteorites discovered on Earth?

These rocks were ejected from Mars by meteorite impacts and then traveled through space for possibly tens of millions of years before landing here. It seems far-fetched that much can be learned about a whole planet from little bits of rock, but the minerals and structures present within a rock can be diagnostic of the environment in which the rock formed. For example, a rock with intergrown crystals of minerals like feldspar and pyroxene is diagnostic of a volcanic environment in which the rock was once molten. Other minerals, including carbonates and many types of clays, require liquid water to form. Scientists have discovered carbonates in Martian meteorites,

evidence of the presence of liquid water for at least some brief time in Mars' history. How long did the water last, and what was the environment like when the water was around? We don't know the answers to these questions yet, which is why we must send robotic geologists like the Mars Exploration Rovers to the surface of Mars. These robots will study the rocks in places on Mars known to have seen liquid water in the past to search for more mineral evidence to the past environment on the red planet. Got a question about the universe? Send it to us at planetaryradio at planetary.org. Be sure to provide your name and how to pronounce it and tell us where you're from. And now here's Matt with more Planetary Radio.

Bruce Betts is here as usual with What's Up. And Bruce, I hear we have yet another special guest that we'll hear from in a couple of minutes. We do indeed. Sandy Moondust on top of a Delta II rocket waiting to launch on the MER-B mission will be talking to us, the second astrobot in space. All right, well, let's get through the housekeeping stuff first then. This is also exciting. In the sky, really, in terms of things that are easy to see, you've got two planets.

You've got Mars and Jupiter. Jupiter in the evening, low in the west, brightest thing out there. Mars in the morning, brightest thing out there in the southeast, orangish-red getting brighter and brighter the next couple months. And I hope it looks great from Hawaii because I'm going to get to see it from there. Strangely, you can't see it from Hawaii. This is also why next week's program will be an encore presentation of Planetary Radio. We'll mention that again in a couple of minutes.

And then we'll be back after that, and you'll be back live as well. That's true. And, by the way, you actually can see it from Hawaii. Good. So please look. I won't have my telescope, but that's all right. That'll do. Let's go on.

We've got This week in space history, which marks a dark day in the history of space exploration. June 29th, 1971, the three-person crew of Soyuz 11 died during re-entry into the atmosphere. So there were indeed, as some Americans forget or don't realize, were deaths in uh the soviet program as well moving on to random space fact io one of jupiter's moons has some amazing colors leading it to sometimes being called the pizza moon has oranges reds whites these are caused mostly by sulfur or basically all by sulfur compounds almost entirely and sulfur in different states creates different colors, depending on temperature formation, things like that.

There's also sulfur dioxide snow forming some of the white patches, which is kind of a nasty chemical and part of smog on Earth, but forms a lot of the ice on Io. Let's move on to the trivia contest. a lot of the ice on Io. Let's move on to the trivia contest. Last week, we asked you, what was the first successful soft lander on the moon?

What did we find out? We found out that quite a few people had it right. A couple had it really wrong. We did have one guess of Apollo 12, which fortunately did make a soft landing on the moon, but certainly was not the first. We also had what you might have expected to hear from people, that it was one of the surveyor craft, which were, of course, American. But the answer was not American at all.

It was not. The answer was Luna 9. The Soviet spacecraft was the first successful soft landing, and it followed many unsuccessful attempts by the Soviets Soviets and then was later followed by the surveyors of the U.S. Well, as always, most of our listeners who chose to enter the contest did have the correct answer. And Luna 9 was the submission from Hannah Beck, another one of our regulars. Hannah hails from Ridgefield, Connecticut. And Hannah, congratulations, you're going to get this week's award of a Mars 3-D poster.

Congratulations. And enjoy those glasses. They're so cool. Ah, yes, those very cool 3-D glasses that will really amaze your friends. It's true. We suggest wearing them around, but not while driving. Important safety tip. Don't forget.

We will move on to the new trivia question in just a moment. Our special guest, Sandy Moondust, will be giving that to us. The Mars Exploration Rover mission has two spacecraft, Mars Exploration Rover A and B. B, which contains the rover Opportunity, is scheduled to launch on June 26th, just past midnight Eastern time. And Sandy Moondust, an astrobot, a representation of a Lego minifigure, sits atop the Delta II rocket even as we speak.

And we are lucky enough, I believe, to have her on the line. Yes, we have the special ISDN connection to the tip of that Delta II rocket. And Sandy, are you with us? Yes, Matt. Hello. I'm glad to be with you today. Sandy, how does it feel to be the second astrobot who will fly in space? It is an honor to fly at all, and I'm very excited to be involved.

Now, Biff Starling, who is already in space, is flying first because of, well, that freak zucchini accident we've all heard about. Can you comment on that? No, I am not at liberty to comment on this. Oh, okay. Well, on the web, the story is propagating that you were scheduled to go first, and the freak zucchini accident actually happened to you. No, that is incorrect.

The accident actually happened to one of my extremely talented colleagues. And as I said before, I cannot comment any further. I see. Bruce, as chief of the Astro Bot Corps, can you make any comment? I can tell you these things, Matt. The proper preparations of vegetables is, of course, a key part of Astro Bot training, and Astro Bot training is inherently dangerous. I cannot comment further at this time.

We're in the middle of the investigation. I see. Well, that's very helpful, though. All right, then. Sandy, we've been reading your correspondences with Biff online at redrovergoestomars.org slash astrobots. Now, I and a lot of other people have been learning a lot. Biff seems to have a very different personality. How

would you characterize your relationship with Biff? We are both astrobots, and Biff and I correspond with respect to the mission. Well, Sandy, we have a surprise for you. We have Biff patched in from space. Hi, Biff. Hey, dudes. And hey, Dudette Sandy. Hi, Biff. What a pleasant surprise. I thought I was doing this interview alone. Most righteous. Now, we want to continue our talk with Sandy,

but I have to ask, how are things up there, Biff? Great, dude. I'm poking around the spacecraft and have made it to the outside for a view. Unbelievably, bodaciously awesome. Words cannot do it justice. You are going to love this, Sandy. Bodacious.

And I agree, Biff. Your words really can't do it justice. Now, Sandy, we understand that although you are launching second, your rocket is bigger. Is that right? That is correct, Matt. I launch on board the Delta II Heavy as opposed to Biff's regular Delta II. So I should have a more exciting ride than Biff did. Hmm.

That leads us right into this week's trivia question. Sandy, if you would do the honors. Yes, Matt, I'd be happy to. How much bigger in diameter are the graphite epoxy motors, or GEMs, on my rocket than they were on Biff's rocket? These are the strap-on solid rockets on the outside of the Delta II rocket. The diameter is larger for the GEMs on the Delta II Heavy compared to the Delta II. Okay, thank you, Sandy. To enter the contest, of course, you need to go to planetary.org and follow the links to Planetary Radio. And you can also read the Astro Bot Diaries with Sandy and Biff from there,

or by going to redrovergoestomars.org slash astrobots. Thanks so much for being with us. Good luck and Godspeed, Sandy Moondust. Thank you, Matt. It was a pleasure to be here. And Biff, you take care out there. Thanks, dudes and dudette. Hasta!

And I don't think I have to remind you to have fun. Bruce, now we've met both the astrobots. We have. Look up in the night sky. Think about going to Mars. Thank you. Good night. Bruce Betts is the Director of Projects for the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California. He joins us each week,

sometimes with friends, here on Planetary Radio. Next week, we with friends, here on Planetary Radio. Next week we'll be replaying our recent conversation with Sir Arthur C. Clarke. We'll return with a brand new show and a brand new trivia question for the week of July 7. Have a great week and a great summer.