Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Celebrating the OSIRIS-REx sample return

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

On September 24th, NASA's OSIRIS-REx spacecraft triumphantly delivered a sample from asteroid Bennu to Earth. Rae Paoletta, the Director of Content and Engagement at The Planetary Society, joins Planetary Radio to recount her firsthand experience of the sample's return in Utah. She introduces us to Mike Puzio, the young man who named asteroid Bennu, and his father, Larry Puzio. Then Danny Glavin, the co-investigator for OSIRIS-REx, shares the next steps for the asteroid samples and the spacecraft. Stick around for What's Up with Bruce Betts, the chief scientist of The Planetary Society, as we digest this huge moment in space history.  Discover more at: https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/2023-osiris-rex-sample-return See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

OSIRIS-REx returns samples to Earth, this week on Planetary Radio. I'm Sarah Al-Ahmed of the Planetary Society, with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. On September 24th, after traversing a staggering 7.1 billion kilometers over seven years, NASA's OSIRIS-REx spacecraft triumphantly delivered a sample from asteroid Bennu to Earth. Joining us to recount her firsthand experience at the sample return in Utah is Ray Paoletta, the Director of Content and Engagement at the Planetary Society. She'll introduce us to Mike Puzio, the young man who named asteroid Bennu, and his father, Larry Puzio. Then Danny Glavin, the co-investigator for OSIRIS-REx, will share the next steps for the asteroid samples and the spacecraft. Make sure you stick around

until the end for What's Up with Bruce Betts, the chief scientist of the Planetary Society, as we digest this huge moment in space history. If you love Planetary Radio and want to stay informed on the latest space discoveries, make sure you hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcasting platform. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode filled with new and awe-inspiring ways to know the cosmos and our place within it. NASA's OSIRIS-REx mission launched in September 2016 with a primary goal, to retrieve a sample from asteroid Bennu. Samples of asteroids like Bennu can teach us a lot about the early solar system and potentially about the origins of life on Earth. These primordial relics

have remained largely unchanged since the early days of our solar system, over 4.5 billion years ago. The tricky part is snagging the samples from the asteroid and then bringing them back to Earth for analysis. After reaching Bennu in December 2018, OSIRIS-REx faced the challenge of collecting a sample from a terrain that was far rockier than anticipated. Of course, in October 2020, the spacecraft team succeeded in high-fiving the asteroid with its TAGSAM device, gathering pristine material from the asteroid and then preparing to make its way back to Earth with the precious cargo. And now, after an intense journey through space and the Earth's atmosphere,

the sample return capsule bearing bits of Bennu touched down in the Utah desert on September 24th, 2023. Ray Paoletta, our Director of Content and Engagement at the Planetary Society, took a trip to the Utah test and training range to witness the historic moment that the samples came down. Hey, Ray. Hey, how's it going? Doing well. Welcome back from your epic adventure to go see OSIRis-Rex sample return. That sounds like so much fun. It was. It was epic. It was surreal. It was all the things. I'm really happy. I'm really, really thrilled about it.

So where did you have to go to see these samples come down? I was staying in Salt Lake City, Utah. And in order to go see the samples, we actually had to drive about an hour and 15 minutes into the Utah desert to the Dugway Proving Grounds, which is an active US military base. And it was just a really interesting experience because I ended up going there. I left my hotel at 4am and driving into the desert at 4am was something I don't think I will forget anytime soon. It was completely pitch black. I could barely see the road in front of me. It was just like an unreal experience. How many people were with you as you went out there? Just the driver was the only other person with me. By the time I ended up getting to the base, I think it was about 5.15 in the morning.

And I just remember looking up and the only thing I could see was all the stars, like every constellation. I mean, it was no light pollution, really. So it was really cool as somebody who doesn't get to see that very often. It was just beautiful. Just taking a minute to look up at the sky and see that was pretty surreal. The place that I was dropped off was not the final destination of the journey. I actually had to go to a different part of the base that all the media, myself included, we had to go on this bus that took us there. And because it was so dark outside, I actually can't even tell you

really where I went. Like I don't, I have no idea. I couldn't point it out to you on a map. I forgot to mention that it was also 38 degrees Fahrenheit. So I'm really glad I wore layers that day because, oh my gosh, the way that the temperature fluctuated throughout the day was so extreme. I was not prepared for that at all, but it was all worth it because it was one of the coolest experiences I've ever had in my whole career. Getting to actually see, no one really saw the sample actually drop out of the sky. Even the NASA reporters who were closer to it didn't see it because it was so tiny. But when the helicopters that left the military base that I was at, when they came back with the sample, all of us could see this helicopter

just soaring through the sky with this little thing dangling from it. And that little thing was the sample capsule. And so everyone was cheering and it was just like watching your favorite sports team win times a thousand. The energy was absolutely incredible. I will never forget that moment. It feels like it was such a short time ago that OSIRIS-REx was actually gathering these samples, but it was actually three years ago that the whole tag sample return thing happened. And then now this moment of the samples finally returning to earth and us getting to test them, that just seems like such a culmination of so many people's careers. And I can't wait to find out what's inside there.

I know. I was actually one of my favorite moments from the whole experience was watching Dante Loretta, the principal investigator on Osiris-Rex, get out of his helicopter, which is really cool. He got a little helicopter for himself, as he deserves. And watching him get out after we got the samples back and everybody just cheering and going nuts. And he was like pumping his fists. I was so happy for him.

I think everybody felt super emotional and we all kind of felt involved in a weird way. And it was just a wonderful moment. I'm sure it was full circle for him and for the whole team, really. Just so many people, it took a village. And I mean, we're just getting started in a way. That must've been really cool to be with that many people for that moment. Cause I know so many of us were watching the live stream online and cheering

at home, but just being there with the people in that moment in history and feeling all their emotions and energy. I was so overwhelmed when I saw, like I said, the sample capsule in the sky. I was so fixated on it. And all I could think about was what is in there? I mean, we are literally getting essentially the rocky material from something that is 4.6 billion years old. I was just stunned. And all I could think about is, wow, I cannot wait until they open this thing up. I cannot wait until they look and see what's inside there. There's so many questions that could be answered. There's so many new questions that could sprout from it. One thing that I was also thinking about, this sort of parallel moment I had,

is the day before the sample return, I went to the Great Salt Lake because, as I said, I was staying in Salt Lake City. And the Great Salt Lake is almost like an alien world. What can live in an area that has such high salinity are these kind of extremophiles, right? It's like bacteria that can live in there and not only live, but thrive under those conditions. And so I think it was a really interesting experience for me to have that the day before, because I was thinking about asteroids and I was thinking about, well, what can they tell us about life outside of earth and what can persist elsewhere? I think that the exciting thing is that none of us know the answer right now, but I think we're going to get a little bit closer.

We're about to be showered in papers as people analyze these things with spectroscopy, just really get on in there. Oh man, just to feel one of those pieces in your hand. I know I'd contaminate it, but it'd be so cool. While you were there, you got to talk to a lot of cool people too, right? Who are the really exciting people that you got to interact with? Yeah, I mean, of course, I was one of many people who was sitting in the, you know, kind of media pool getting to chat with Donze Loretta. I didn't speak with him directly, but I was there when he came back. So that was really awesome to see how excited and how relieved he was.

I also got to speak to Daniel Glavins, who's a senior scientist with NASA Goddard, who is working on OSIRIS-REx and is also involved with Mars Sample Return. Really, really smart guy, very friendly, has a lot of really interesting thoughts about Mars Sample Return. Definitely go check out his work.

I got to talk with a lot of different reporters too, a lot of media friends, old and new. And I do want to give a very special shout out to all my friends at Utah State who kindly drove me to not only the place I was supposed to go to the military base, but on the way back, drove me all the way home to Salt Lake City. And we went on this epic adventure through the mountains. It was a very Lord of the Rings, very fun mountain adventure times among friends. So shout out to all of you. If I hope you're listening to this, that was so kind of you. I will never forget that

kindness of complete strangers. That's my experience, especially at these science conferences and like science events. The people there are just in this state of such joy and camaraderie and celebrating what we were doing together in space exploration. And the kindness of strangers in those scenarios is something that definitely sticks with me. Yeah, it really makes me feel like we're all part of this, you know, cosmic big space family. And that's really nice to see, too. It's just a wonderful group of people. I think the funniest part, though, is honestly, when I got home, because I had been awake for so many hours, and because I was in the literal desert, when I got back to my hotel, I looked in the mirror, my eyes were so red from all of the dust, my face was so red from the

sunburn. It was truly a sight to behold. The hazards of going to see samples return from another world. Totally worth it. 10 out of 10 would do again. Well, I'm really excited to share some of your conversations with people on the show and hear that we're going to hear from Mike Puzio, who has a lot of history with the Planetary Society and gives us a really deep connection with this mission. Mike and his dad, Larry, are phenomenal. They're like ambassadors of Earth to other planets. They are shining examples of human beings, wonderful people. And I'm really glad that I got to speak to them both. They have such a rich and deep connection to space.

And there's something so wholesome about the way that space brings people together. And I just think it's such a cool story about a father and son who had this shared love of space going off into the world and getting other people excited about it, too. I mean, it's what we try to encourage here at the Planetary Society. And I think that they really embody that. Well, we're about to share that conversation. And I'm so glad you got to go on this adventure because we can't send everyone on the team to go see this thing fall out of the sky. But someone had to. And you just have this just infectious enthusiasm.

So thanks for sharing your experience with us. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much. In 2013, before OSIRIS-REx began its epic sample return adventure, the Planetary Society ran one of our classic naming contests. ran one of our classic naming contests. 8,000 entrants from around the world submitted new names for what was then known as Asteroid 101955-1999-RQ36. A young man named Mike Puzio submitted the name Bennu after an Egyptian deity typically depicted as a heron. He said that the OSIRIS-REx solar panels looked like wings, and that its touch-and-go sample mechanism, or TAGSAM arm, resembled the curved neck of an aquatic bird.

For Mike, naming Bennu was the beginning of something bigger than an asteroid. He spent the last 10 years serving as an ambassador for the OSIRIS-REx mission, inspiring people from all walks of life to get excited about space. Ray caught up with Mike and his dad Larry Puzio in Salt Lake City, Utah, the weekend of the OSIRIS-REx sample return. They discussed how missions like this can change lives for the better. Before we even talk about Bennu or anything, I would love to know what your space origin story is. When did you first catch the space bug? That would probably be when my father took me to my first, what was then called Astronaut Rendezvous back in,

I was about eight at the time, so it was just a bit after I had submitted the name, which is honestly incredible that it all panned out that well. And then I would love to ask you the same, Larry. Oh, I've really been into space since I was a kid and grew up watching Star Trek. Kind of gave it up through college and med school, thinking, well, I got bad eyes, I couldn't be an astronaut.

And the last decade, I've really gotten back into it. When Mike was learning to read, I want to make sure he had lots of books about space and science. I think that the books and all of this learning has definitely paid off, or at least been really relevant in this chapter of what we're talking about here with coming up with the name for Bennu.

I actually watched an interview with Emily Lakdawalla, our former senior editor, and she conducted that with you and you, Larry, as well, when you were about nine, I think, yeah. And so the contest that the Planetary Society helped to run, name that asteroid if you remember, it had around, I think, 8,000 entrants. What made you decide to enter? Well, my father said for me to give it a shot. And it was the worst thing that could happen is that they would say no to my name. And it turns out that didn't happen, which I'm very grateful for. So why not is really the only reason why.

And I thought what was so cool about the name is I also was, I just loved ancient Egypt when I was a kid, and so I'm wondering, did you read books about ancient Egypt? What inspired that for you? So I've been a big Rick Riordan fan since around the third grade when I was reading the Percy Jackson series, which was about the time that I named the asteroid. And then later I found the Kane Chronicles, which was about Egyptian mythology,

and that was even cooler now that I had the whole Bennu named asteroid to work with. So I had a little piece of investment in Egyptian mythology. Well, after the mission name had been announced as Osiris-Rex, I recognized the name Osiris as an Egyptian deity. And I went on Wikipedia to look up stories about him. And one of them that stood out was his return to Earth as a Banu or a heron. And I figured that would be fitting as the asteroid would be returning a sample to Earth. Do you remember what it was like the moment you won? I mean, can you describe what did people at school find out?

Did you tell them? How did that all go? When I found out, I didn't quite know how to take it because I had never had this experience. I'd never seen this experience from anybody else. And so eventually at some point, I asked our principal if that would be okay for it to be part of the morning announcements, which she had. And she said, that would be phenomenal. That was just how a lot of my classmates found out. Over the morning announcements.

Very cool. What was it like working with the Planetary Society during that time? Did somebody from our team actually contact you personally to tell you? society during that time? Did somebody from our team actually contact you personally to tell you? So there was this lovely individual named Emily Lakdawalla, who's in email cahoots with my parents. Initially, she had told them that I had been one of the semifinalists. But of course, my parents didn't tell me then because they didn't want to get my hopes up, which thank you. But I was eventually told by her that I had, in fact, won the competition, and I was just dumbfounded. That's so cool, and what a great surprise that you kept it. How did you manage to keep the secret

that long? Oh, it was just, I didn't show him all the emails, but really, I didn't want to get him disappointed at that age. Since it was just by email, and he didn't know, I never let him find out until he was approved as the winner. That's awesome. So looking back at that time, did it feel like winning that contest had ripple effects on other parts of your life? For example, did it inspire you to become more interested in space or science? Well, it did kind of thrust me into the whole space thing. And initially, I was a little bit reluctant to actually get into space beyond that, because it was more of my dad's thing at the time. But upon realizing how cool space was, and after my dad had taken me to a few space events, I decided that it would be really cool to stick with it. So I decided to get more involved with it, doing all sorts of things, such as going to the launch back in 2016 and then becoming an Osiris

Rex ambassador and giving lectures on it. Yeah, really, it jumpstarted something. So that's really interesting, too. And I think that a lot of us in space had these moments, too, where maybe we didn't come from like a formal space science education or something, but there's just these lightning bolt moments in our lives that bring us into the industry. Right. So right now you're at school at North Carolina State. Is that right? And you're studying engineering. What do you want to do with that? Do you eventually want to go into the space sector? Eventually, I'd like to be an astronaut. I'm still clinging on to that little eight-year-old Mike dream. Prepare space shuttles or? Just be on the crew to any mission, really.

As I think it was John Glenn said, any space flight is a good space flight. Very well said. Yes, couldn't agree more. And it seems like you've given some talks, as you mentioned, about OSIRIS-REx over the years. Can you tell me a little bit about that? It's opened a lot of doors for me to meet and talk to some really cool people. So I'm pretty glad about it. And honestly, it got me to be able to talk to a big crowd. Yeah, a lot of public speaking experience. What do you hope your personal contribution can be to the field of space now that you've had this sort of once in a lifetime opportunity? All I can hope to do is to inspire other people to do something about space because it's for everyone. And I mean everyone to get involved in.

And it's a really cool part of my life. And I hope it can be a cool part of their lives too. I couldn't agree more. I have a similar experience myself. And I just think that a lot of people, we almost box ourselves out by feeling like it's a gate kept kind of thing that only this small amount of, you know, esoteric people with this highly technical understanding are ever going to get into. And then when you realize that there really is space for everybody, there's a lot of meaning in that. So it's been about 10 years now. We're sitting here in Salt Lake City. If you can believe it, you know, ages nine to 19, though, may as well be 100 years in terms of how much your life changes in that decade. How does it feel to be here now,

just a couple of days away from the sample actually dropping from a sample from the asteroid you actually named? It honestly feels amazing because it's just been something for so long. It's just been a big part of my life for that huge amount of time, relatively speaking. Just the whole culmination of it here in this last weekend is something that it's a bittersweet thing because I've been looking forward to NASA getting all the data back and getting it to analyze the asteroid sample. However, it's almost over. And Larry, I'd actually like to ask you the same because I feel like this is a full circle moment for you as well, where you were at the launch. How does it feel now?

Oh, it's really phenomenal because 10 years ago when he was that young, I figured, wow, it'll be a decade before it comes back. I can't imagine what things will be doing by then. And it's just been an amazing journey of watching him grow up and watching him get excited about things that I don't even understand all the time, like electrical engineering. But he's really, it's had a great impact on his life. I love how many opportunities we've had because of this. And still look forward to even the next part of the mission to catch up with Apophis. Yeah, I wanted to ask about that, too, because it's like, you know, Sunday is obviously a big milestone.

But, I mean, the spacecraft will still be hard at work. So one thing I wanted to ask you that I just think is hilarious is I'm like, did you predict the future? Because now it's going to study Apophis, which was the ancient Egyptian deity associated with like darkness and disorder and chaos. And I'm like, how, how did you pick such a perfect name? It isn't too hard. I mean, it's only appropriate that the next asteroid that it goes and collects data from is named Apophis. Yeah, definitely makes sense with the, uh with the storyline. So what are you personally most excited to learn about from the Bennu samples? Personally excited for where is the origin of life? Where did we come from?

Where are we going, possibly, even? And then, Larry, I'd like to ask you the same, because I think that one aspect of learning about asteroids that I think a lot of people associate them with is planetary defense, of course. And we had the DART mission a year ago, right, very much in the popular zeitgeist. But a lot of people, I think, don't realize how much asteroids are almost like time capsules of the solar system. It's really amazing. Dolores Hill, one of the University of Arizona specialists, really got us turned on to meteorites. She gave us a tour, and that's one of her passions.

And meteorites really provide pristine samples because on Earth, everything has been recycled or gone devoured and digested. So there's no way to really study our origins well here. But getting a pristine sample is a really good basis to start with and a bit of a change of subject. It also makes me think of one of Mike's favorite t-shirts from the ESA, which is that dinosaurs didn't have a space program. Yes, that's excellent. Looking back on your own experience with Bennu and the whole contest, why is it so important to get kids excited about space? Well, those kids are eventually going to grow up. And if they have a love for space when they're a little kid, then they're going to want to do

something with it when they grow up. And even then, if they don't do it, then they'll have that nostalgic feeling when a big space mission does occur. And then they'll remember how NASA made them feel. So I feel like it's important to always develop a love for space in everyone, especially youngsters, though. Yeah, and Larry, I'd like to ask you the same. I mean, looking back at your experience with this contest and with Mike, why is it important for kids to get excited about space? Where do kids and families fit within this vast space of space, frankly?

Well, I've really come to learn how much all of our daily lives are really impacted by developments from the space program, both the very idea of cell phones, tiny cameras, and even integrated circuits are just from the Apollo program. So much of our modern lives is shaped by that field, and nobody seems to be aware or appreciate it. So educating the public really helps. Absolutely. And just my final question is, do you have a message for our Planetary Society members?

Maybe something or on some thoughts or reflections since winning the contest? Well, if you have the opportunity to do something that you want to do, take it. I did that and I don't think it turned out too bad. I'd say make sure that along with supporting space exploration or the Planetary Society, take the time to write notes to your legislators and really get involved with decisions about space policy. If it's done right, it'll really benefit the entire planet. And other planets. We'll be right back with the rest of our celebration of the OSIRIS-REx sample return after this short break.

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the successful story of LightSail. Thank you. So what's next for the samples from Bennu and the OSIRIS-REx spacecraft? We turn next to Dr. Daniel or Danny Glavin, the co-investigator of NASA's OSIRIS-REx mission. He's an astrobiologist and a sample integrity scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. He's leading the team that will unravel the mysteries contained within the samples returned from Bennu. He's delved into samples from the moon and meteorites, and he's also involved in the Mars sample return mission. I spoke with him just a few days after his return from Utah.

Hi, Danny. Thanks for joining me. Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I have to say huge congratulations to you and everyone that's been working on OSIRIS-REx. This is, for me, I feel like the biggest space moment of the year. Yeah, I mean, it was incredible. I mean, I was out at Dugway at UTTR for the landing, and like everyone, it was just like, please work. I want this parachute to open, this precious sample. Please come very emotional and stressful until that chute opened. And then I was able to relax for a second. But yeah, it's just incredible that we can do these things. I mean, going all the way out to an asteroid, collecting a sample over 200 million miles away from Earth, fully autonomously, pick up a sample from the surface, stow it, and

then bring it back to Earth, survive atmospheric entry and landing. And, you know, now the sample is going to be literally distributed to labs around the Earth to analyze. So it's really a very exciting time for planetary science. It is. And that just puts it all in context. Working on this mission for 15 years, that's got to be just so satisfying to see how successfully it came down. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, I'm actually honestly still in disbelief about this whole thing. You know, I was telling people it felt like I was a cast member in a science fiction film, you know, we're really doing this. But, you know, now samples are back. We've confirmed,

you know, everybody's seen the images of the sample container open. There's clearly Bennu dust in there. And, you know, we're getting ready to open it up further here over this next week. But there's sample there. And so this is real. You know, we have this pristine, you know, four and a half billion year old asteroid fossil, right, from the early solar system to analyze. It's just incredible. It's just incredible.

I felt too like this mission has had to leap over so many interesting hurdles just because we're beginning to understand things about asteroids and sample return that we've never really had to encounter before. Like there was that moment where it was actually trying to grab that sample, the touch and go maneuver. And when I read how close that spacecraft got to literally almost being engulfed by this rubble pile. I was really amazed. Yeah, I mean, it was scary, you know, and of course, you know, we were, because of the time delay, it was, I think, 18 and a half minutes or something before the signal could come back to let us know that everything worked. We were, everything had already happened, right, by the time we're looking at it. But yeah, I mean, we went down and we thought it would be more like a pogo stick kind of thing off a hard surface. And it was more akin to literally like jumping into a plastic ball pit, right? We sunk into the asteroid and none of the mechanisms, we had a spring that was going to activate so that would trigger the back away thrusters. None of that went off. So there was

no resistance of the asteroid as we plunged the sampler in. And fortunately, you know, the code, there was a timer that triggered the back away thrusters and, you know, we were able to back away and get out of there. But if that hadn't gone off, if the thrusters didn't work, we, yeah, like you said, we would have been swallowed up by Bennu. It would have been end of mission. But fortunately, you know, these engineers are incredible. They plan for every contingency, right? And they made it happen. Yeah. And then immediately after that, you get the samples into the actual sample container. And it was so much sample, it couldn't even close its mouth. I keep trying to liken it to a game of chubby bunny. It ate too many

marshmallows and just couldn't keep its mouth shut. Yeah, we swallowed a lot of Bennu, which was exciting, you know, because we got deep and we packed the, we call it the Tag Sam collector full. And that was another really kind of frightening, exciting, I don't know what moment of the mission where, you know, we're taking images of the sampler head before it was stowed away. And there were particles, many particles coming out. As you mentioned, one of the flaps was jammed open by a small stone. And I think the PI of the mission, Dante Loretta, said at the time, you know, every single particle coming out is somebody's PhD thesis, you know. And he was right. He kind of put it in perspective, like this is opportunity lost. So that initiated a very accelerated kind of stowage. Originally,

we had planned to basically extend the arm with the sample in it and spin the spacecraft around like a merry-go-round to make a moment of inertia, basically measurement to really precisely determine the mass of the sample on the head. But you don't do that if it's a leaking sample. And so it was within days that we were able to get the thing tucked away, accelerated, scheduled to get it stowed and safely sealed in the sample return capsule. So good news is, you know, we didn't lose everything. We know that. We've got, I think the mass estimates were something like 250 grams with an error of like 100 grams. But we were convinced we met our requirement of 60 grams. Yeah, we'll know soon here, hopefully in the next, this week or so, what the actual mass was.

But there's definitely a sample in this collector. That's got to be really cool for you because I understand that you've just been gearing up to check out these samples for a while. Like this is your bread and butter. So what are you most excited about finding in these samples? Yeah, so I mean, for my career, over the last, I would say, 20 years or so, I've been studying organics, organic compounds, the building blocks of life in meteorites. So amino acids make up all of our proteins and enzymes.

Nucleo bases, these are the components that make up the of our proteins and enzymes, nucleobases. These are the components that make up the genetic code in DNA and RNA. And so we've been searching for these building blocks of life in meteorites, basically trying to test this hypothesis that meteorites from asteroids like Bennu could have delivered the seeds of life to the early Earth and maybe other planets, which then helped give rise to life. So we're going to be testing that hypothesis in full swing with Bennu for sure. And one of the frustrating things analyzing meteorites is that they've been contaminated. As soon as they hit the atmosphere, they're heated, they're exposed to the atmosphere, they hit dirt or ice or wherever they land on the Earth and immediately start being contaminated by terrestrial organics.

And we don't have that problem with Bennu, especially now after the successful soft landing of the sample return capsule. These samples are going to be very clean. And what that means is if you did start detecting organic compounds, you can really trust the results that these are organics that were formed in space on this asteroid, and it isn't contamination that came into the sample later. So I'm really excited about that, testing again this hypothesis that the prebiotic organic compounds that led to life on Earth and maybe elsewhere, like Mars, could have come from asteroids like Bennu. Wouldn't that just be such a realization? I mean, everything we're testing out there seems to have these organic

compounds on them, but actually getting to analyze them in a lab, see how complex they are. One of my friends was even like, I wonder if there's RNA on that asteroid. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we'll see how far we go. And again, I think because these samples are likely to be very clean, that if we do detect more complex RNA-like peptide structures, we can maybe start to trust the results. So far with meteorites, we've never seen anything that complex that wasn't contamination. So we see the building blocks, the amino acids, nucleobases, we see sugars like ribose, but nothing as complex as a nucleic acid or nucleotide. But we'll certainly be looking for those more complex polymers in these Bennu samples. I think what's cool, too, is that this isn't the first time we've actually successfully brought samples back to Earth.

Of course, it was the Japanese Space Agency, but we already have samples of asteroid Ryugu, right? So now that we have these things, we can begin to compare the makeup of these and see how organic compounds compare between these two different bodies. Yeah, this is really important. And I was following social media during the landing, and I know there were a lot of people getting outraged with this, the first asteroid sample return and all that boasting. As you pointed out, JAXA, Japan did it first with Hayabusa, the first one from Asteroid Itokawa, only returned about a milligram a sample, so a small amount of material. And then more recently, the Hayabusa 2 mission, which went to AstroRigu, returned about 5.4 grams. And of course, with OSIRIS-REx and Bennu, we're hoping for maybe a couple hundred grams. We'll see. We'll know for sure. But my whole point is, let's not talk about who's first and this and that. This return of samples from Bennu is really going to

enhance the science value of all of these missions, right? Hayabusa, Hayabusa 2, and OREX, for exactly the reasons you said. We're going to be able to compare these asteroids to each other and compare the organic chemistry. And, you know, if we detect them, you don't see how common these compounds are, right? So I'm really excited about that comparison, actually, as well. This is just one of the things that Osiris-Rex has accomplished. But now we're off on a whole new adventure after this, starting into Osiris-Apex. And then we'll get to go take a look at asteroid Apophis, which I am super excited about. I don't know about you, but this is really exciting for me because I think the whole world is about to be completely wowed by Apophis in 2029, and they don't even know it yet.

Yeah, I mean, Apophis, so I'm not, just to clarify, I'm not part of the APEX mission. I'm fully on OSIRIS-REx sample analysis, but I have friends that are involved in the mission. But indeed, it's going to be really exciting in 2029. I'm told that you'll be able to see Apophis moving across the sky with your eyes at night. And so it's going to be that close. It won't hit us. We know that for sure.

But yeah, we're going to be taking the OSIRIS-REx spacecraft. We don't have a sampler system, so we're not going to be able to sample Apophis and bring back sample. But we have all the instruments that we use to analyze Bennu, and we're going to be able to make those comparisons between Apophis and Bennu from the spectroscopy measurements. And it's also kind of cool, after Apophis passes by Earth, the OSIRIS-REx or APEX will rendezvous with Apophis and actually go down to the surface and fire the thrusters to, you know,

get the spray the dirt, if you will, from the surface and make measurements to try to see what it looks like underneath the top surface as well. Investigate space weathering and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's going to do some really cool science. And yeah, I'm just I'm glad it's not the end for OSIRIS-REx. It's got another asteroid to go to. So that makes me happy as well. it's not the end for Osiris-Rex. It's got another asteroid to go to, so that makes me happy as well. When is it actually going to rendezvous with the asteroid?

Like, is it possible to get images of the asteroid and the Earth together? Yeah, that's a good question. I would assume it would be cool to have an image of Apophis and the Earth. But yeah, I just, I don't know enough about the details to comment on that. You have to talk to somebody else on the APEX team to find out.

We have a few years to figure it out. I just know what that image would mean for planetary defense. That would be so cool. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, no, planetary defense, that's the other side of this. I mean, we talk a lot about the science and learning about the origin of the solar system from the samples returned from Bennu. But the other aspect of this is planetary defense. I mean, it's no joke. I mean, Bennu is characterized as a potentially hazardous asteroid. I think in, what is it, September 24th, 2182, if I get that year right, there's a very small chance it could hit the Earth. And Bennu's big. This is the size of the New York's, the Empire State Building. It would be a bad day if Bennu hit there. But by studying these samples and studying the makeup of Bennu, the physical properties of the rocks, we'll be able to put ourselves in a better position to design a mission if we have to deflect the asteroids so that it doesn't hit the Earth.

by the idea that there were all these asteroids and comets out there, and we weren't actively doing anything to really make a plan for what to happen if something came in. But we're actually at this point now where we're getting samples back from asteroids. We're getting up close to these asteroids with imagery. We even had the DART mission that went and slammed into an asteroid. So now I feel like we're actively in a good place here. It is important. I mean, the DART was an extremely important mission, right? It showed that we can actually change the orbit, you know, the orbit of an asteroid by hitting it. That was unknown, actually. And I think they were actually even more successful than they thought. They deflected it even more. But yeah, I mean, it's really the approach is we got to be studying these materials in the lab. We got to be looking for asteroids, especially the smaller ones.

So there's a whole survey that needs to happen so that we can find them. And that's really the key with planetary defense. You need to find them early so that you have a decade, 10, 20 years to plan how you're going to move it if needed. And so that's really the key. So I know NASA has really been focused on just the survey aspect, just finding these things out there. Yeah, but I'm with you. I mean, I'm glad we're paying attention to this. I mean, you look at our history on Earth and just look at the moon. I mean, our history is a series of impacts, right? It happens. And they can wipe out, wiped out the dinosaurs 66 million years ago. We need to pay attention to this. And just to

clarify, you know, that your audience should not be worried about Bennu hitting us in the next 150 years. There's basically no chance that Bennu can hit us. So we're really looking again, many years down the road, but still we need to be prepared for the possibility that something like this could happen sometime in the future. Yeah, got to protect the creatures of earth. And we're doing a pretty good job, I feel. Absolutely. Yep. What was it actually like for you there? At the actual sample return? Did you guys celebrate afterwards? Like, what was that like? I think everybody had their own individual experience. I guess one of the things that

was surprising to me is everybody was emotional, and especially after the parachute opened. And I hugged a lot of people, people that I wouldn't normally hug, and we were just hugging. And it was great. We were just that moment of just relief, all this time put into the mission, just let go. I know that the PI, I mean, he said this to the team, but when the chute opened, I mean, he cried on the helicopter. He got teary-eyed. And I know Dante very well, and I don't think I've ever seen him cry. So that, I think for him, it was just a release as well of all the stress. And we made it. We did it. And it was a great celebration. I mean, when the chute went open, there was a huge cheer, a huge roar. Everybody knew that at that point we were safe, that this really worked, the seven-year journey really worked. So it was a big relief.

It's got to be. I mean, it's such a complicated feeling. It's one part relief that it actually worked, but also just the culmination of so many people working together on such a complex task and having it come together. That's a beautiful moment. Yeah, no doubt. And I'm just so excited about what's to come. I mean, in some ways, even though I've been involved in this mission for almost 15 years, it feels like it's the start of it for me now, right? As a sample analyst. I mean, this is what I've trained for and what our team of, we've got over 200 laboratory scientists that have been just

ready for this moment, ready to go on these samples. And I can't tell you how excited I am, not only for the two years we have to analyze, but just decades to come. I'm going to be reading, even after I'm retired, I'm sure I'm going to be reading about something new that was found from asteroid Bennu. And just to know I played some small part in making this happen is just really gratifying. Well, all these decades later, we're still seeing papers written about the moon samples. It's going to be decades and decades. We're going to be talking about Bennu. Where are the samples now? I mean, I know you said they're going to be like parceled out to different labs around the world, but where are they in this moment?

Yeah. So right now the samples are at Johnson Space Center. Most of the stuff that's in one of these giant nitrogen glove boxes, right, because we don't want to contaminate, so it's just clean nitrogen that these samples are being exposed to. And the curation folks are busy sweeping the material off the deck and collecting a sample. A small part of that has been allocated to the, we call it the Quick Look Tiger team, for just some basic mineralogy analyses, some basic optical, just looking at it under the microscope, right? Understanding its mineralogy, the different types of rocks. And that work is happening now. And maybe some of that, I think,

will be presented at the October 11th NASA reveal event at 11 a.m. Eastern time. So certainly, they'll probably brief, there'll be a briefing on some of those findings, but we can't talk about any of that now. We'll have to wait till October 11th, but I can tell you these samples will be going out. I think we've got, as I mentioned, 200 scientists, something like 35 labs around the world who will be getting these materials to study using the best techniques available. And these samples, yeah, probably by end of this month, November timeframe, most of these folks will have samples. And it's going to get really exciting at that point. And I think the data

is just going to start flooding in. That is really exciting. And I'm glad you brought that up. We're recording this early. So for us, we actually have to wait for those results to be public. But everybody listening to this will be results to be public. But everybody listening to this will be able to go and immediately watch that press conference because it comes out on the day that this episode airs on October 11th. So it's perfect timing. I think with the amount of sample we've returned, what we're able to do on very just tiny amounts of material, I mean, we can make measurements on micrograms, a millionth of a gram, right? There are techniques that can look at very small particles. So we're going to have sample mass available for generations

of scientists to look at. And I hope some of your listeners are thinking about getting into research and scientists someday maybe be looking at this material as well in their own labs with techniques that weren't even around today, right? I mean, that's one thing that I think people forget is that these sample return missions, it really is a gift that keeps on giving. There are limits to what we can do now, but 10, 20, 30 years later, there's a new technique, a new instrument technology, and we can look at the samples in different ways and honestly ask questions we don't even know how to ask right now. I just, I love that about sample return. I mean, this is, the bottom line is this is just so much

bigger than the Osiris-Rex team, right? This is really for humanity and inspiring the next generation and just learning new things over generations. So it really is exciting to me. It really is. And we saw it with the young gentleman who named Bennu when he was younger through one of our competitions, Mike Puzio. Just seeing the arc of someone's life, getting interested into space when they're younger, and then seeing them carry that into a career when they're older. I'm totally sure that there are kids these days that are hearing about this mission and are gearing up to test those samples someday. It's beautiful. Yeah, no doubt.

And you mentioned Mike Puzio. I'll just say a little side story. So we were at the OSIRIS-REx celebration event this last Saturday at the South Shore Harbor in Texas near Houston, and Mike Puzio was there. And I'm like, oh man, I got to meet this guy. Asteroid Bennu was not always Asteroid Bennu. It was 1999 RQ36, and he won a contest to name Bennu. He was nine years old at the time. And so here we are. That was back in 2013. Here he is as an adult, you know, a 19 years old guy. And so I met him. We got a funny picture together. And he actually wants to be an astronaut. I thought that was really cool. So he's been inspired to pursue space in that way.

But yeah, it was just really nice seeing him there and chatting with him. I just can't wait. There's so many things to look forward to in the future for sample return. This is just one more asteroid, but we're looking at a future where we'll be able to return samples from hopefully Mars someday. And when we get all these samples together, start comparing across the solar system, the things we'll be able to learn about our solar system's history will be just probably far beyond what we're imagining right now. There's no question. And I can tell you, every sample return mission, we learn something new and exciting and different. And I'll go back to the Stardust mission,

right? Return samples from Comet Vilt 2. This is NASA's Stardust mission from the tail, just dust cranes, something like a milligram. And just from Stardust mission from the tail, just dust grains, something like a milligram. And just from that milligram of dust from the comet, we learned that material was flying all over the place in the solar system, right? We found grains, these mineral grains that could have only formed at high temperature near the sun, right? Out where comets are, near Jupiter. How did that stuff get out there? So the entire solar system is just this giant mixing. And that led to new models about the outer planets moving around, flinging stuff in and stuff going out. And this is all from one milligram of sample. And so there's no doubt that I think

the analysis of the Ryuga materials, the analysis of samples from Bennu, I mean, we're going to be literally rewriting the textbooks on solar system formation and evolution. We really are. It's just a really great, exciting time to be a space fan. And I'm just so relieved that the samples came back well. They're safe. We're about to do all this awesome science.

And it's just a good time to be alive. Thank you so much to you and everybody who made this mission possible because this was a triumph. You're welcome. I don't even know how to express my emotions right now. It's just, you know, we're in the middle of starting the sample analysis. This mission worked. Like you said, there's so many other things to do and look forward to.

Mars sample return. Maybe one day we'll get a sample of a comet nucleus back to Earth as well. But it's no doubt, it's a really exciting time to be in planetary science right now. Well, thanks for joining me, Danny, and for taking the time. I'm sure you and everyone are very busy gearing up to test these samples, so I appreciate it. You're welcome, Sarah. Now let the science begin. Happy analysis to all the scientists around the world that have been looking forward to these samples. And again, a huge congratulations to everyone that's worked on the mission over the years. Now let's check in with Bruce Betts, the Chief Scientist of the Planetary Society for What's Up. Sup, Bruce?

Hey, Sarah. Hey, Sarah. It's so cool to finally see the OSIRIS-REx spacecraft deposit its samples back on Earth. And I feel like timeline-wise in my brain, I started working with you guys just a little bit before that TAG sample return snatchy maneuver. That's the official term, I believe. Definitely, yeah. No, the fact that they called it TAG mean come on no i think that's what that stood for yes it is yes it is no it's it's super exciting and uh you've been involved since then and i've been involved since well the school books were written

on stone but i've been involved since they started proposing this mission a very long time ago and when i say i i mean the planetary society because we've did some education outreach with this and naming contests and sending names that have gone out and come back and are going and flying around and and there's really great signs and it's really exciting and they made it back and it looks great and they got rocks and they're from another place and it could tell us about the early solar system and the formation of everything and what came to earth in terms of water and in terms of organics and it's really exciting there is though it's nice to hear you so excited about something i feel like we succeeded so hard at this like i'm so excited to see what they find in those samples and then compare them to the samples that JAXA got and see what's going on there.

We could learn a lot. Yeah, it's awesome. And they have a really long acronym. And now they're transforming into OSIRIS-APEX and going to make all those little people at Planetary Defense Conference and also the Apophis workshops that happen every year now happy that at least a spacecraft will be going to Apophis when it comes super close to the Earth in 2029. At the very least, we've got a really cool functional spacecraft going there to check it out and see what happens to an asteroid, a 300-meter asteroid,

when it flies closer than the geostationary satellites, and what gets shaken around and what happens. I can't wait for that to scare everyone. Not because I like people being scared, but because we need to be doing more for planetary defense. We've done a lot, but there's still a lot that can be left to accomplish. Oh, yeah. No, we have a long way to go

and i by the way as far as i can tell you do enjoy scaring people maybe a little but yes there's a noble goal behind this one last week we talked about favorite conferences they're now um apophis workshops every every year uh counting down the years until the flyby because of the science, try to make sure we get the science and planetary defense potential out of such an awesome opportunity. You can road trip to Europe to see it in the night sky. I would love to. I would absolutely do that. Or somewhere else.

I don't remember exactly where all it is. Yeah, I think Europe was the location. Europe and Northern Africa? I'll have to look that up, but I think that's right. Okay, but I have to ask you this. Uh-oh. Who do you think is behind the ridiculous Osiris names? Not because I don't love them, but going from Osiris Rex to Osiris Apex is very Jurassic Park.

Very Jurassic Park? Yeah, they had those new Jurassic World movies where they took a Tyrannosaurus Rex and turned it into an Indominus Rex, like the whole next level. I feel like that's what we did with the spacecraft. No, that was the product of some people looking. They had an opportunity. And could they make the orbital dynamics work out with the fuel on board to be able to do it? So, yes, they've transformed into a different kind of space-asaurus. There is precedent for this with other spacecraft already,

including name changes, although I don't remember all the name additions that they use. But Stardust dropped off samples of a comet and went off and checked out the comet that Deep Impact had hit with an 800-kilogram ball of copper. And Deep Impact, after it dropped its 800-kilogram ball of copper, went and looked at another comet. People have gotten creative this way before, and I just never imagined that they were dinosaurs.

I just really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid, and I feel like that's part of why I'm so in love with planetary defense. We owe it to them. They didn't have a cool space agency. They didn't have multiple cool space agencies. They didn't have any way of knowing how to protect themselves. So I don't know that we'd be here if the dinosaurs were still chomping around. So way to go, us. that's a fair point we might not have a planetary radio right planetary radio would not be here without the chick-saloop impact

you heard it here what a headline sorry dinosaurs all right i've got kind of a complex fact, so maybe we should... Wait, large dog coming by. You want to say it? My dog does look remarkably like Scooby. All right. He says, get on with it. All right, all right. Dude, I'm trying to do a show here. We've talked about this.

So the moon, that thing in the sky, that disk thing, it passes in front of planets. It passes in front of stars. It's cool. It's called an occultation. It occults them. But what's always kind of interesting to me is that you can see those from one part of the world but not another part. see those from one part of the world but not another part. Well, it turns out the moon is so close to us, so to speak, compared to the sky, that the moon actually, the position of the moon in the sky varies by as much as two degrees on the sky from one part of the world to like the

farthest other part of the world, considering the moon is about half a degree in diameter. That's like four moon diameters difference in where it appears. So this is why it's particularly localized. I relatively localized these occultations of things because I've wanted to share those in various media of, hey, you can go see an occultation. But then I realized, oh, well, not two thirds of the world. So never mind. But you can look them up. It's cool.

Things disappear. People get cool pictures. There you go. Yeah, sometimes I like to watch those live streams. Or I've even worked some of those live streams in the past from Griffith Observatory. So if you can't watch it from where you are, if there's an occultation coming up, you can always find someone's live stream online, which is the power

of the internet. Wow, I did not see that turning into an ad for the internet. Is that internet thing going to stay, do you think? All right, let's take this one out. All right, everybody, come out there, look up at the night sky, and think about your mind expanding

into the universe, and then pulling it back in because Sarah's got it too scary. Thank you. Good night. We've reached the end of this week's episode of Planetary Radio, but we'll be back next week to talk about diffraction solar sailing. You can help others discover the passion, beauty, and joy of space science and exploration by leaving a review and a rating on platforms like Apple Podcasts.

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