Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - International integration: The path from the Moon to Mars

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

Every year, Explore Mars hosts the Humans to Mars Summit, a gathering of people from around the world who want to advance human exploration of the Red Planet and beyond. This week on Planetary Radio, we share a conversation from the summit about integrating NASA and its partners as humanity looks to build a permanent and sustainable human presence on Mars. You'll hear from Mat Kaplan (The Planetary Society's senior communications advisor) and representatives of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), the European Space Agency (ESA), the United Arab Emirates Space Agency (UAESA), and the commercial space industry. Then, we'll check in with Bruce Betts, the chief scientist of The Planetary Society, for What's Up and a new random space fact. Discover more at: https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/2024-h2m-international-integrationSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To get humans to Mars, we need international collaboration. This week on Planetary Radio. I'm Sarah Al-Ahmed of the Planetary Society, with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. Every year, Explore Mars hosts the Humans to Mars Summit, a gathering of people from around the world who want to advance human exploration of the Red Planet. Explore Mars hosts the Humans to Mars Summit, a gathering of people from around the world who want to advance human exploration of the Red Planet. Today we share a panel from the summit

on integrating NASA and its partners, moderated by our Senior Communications Advisor, Matt Kaplan. Then we'll check in with Bruce Betts, our Chief Scientist of the Planetary Society, for What's Up. If you love planetary radio and want to stay informed about the latest space discoveries, make sure you hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcasting platform. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode filled with new and awe-inspiring ways to know the cosmos and our place within it. The annual Humans to Mars Summit brings fans of the Red Planet from across the space community to discuss how humans can create a sustainable and permanent presence on Mars. This year's summit was held on May 7th and 8th at the George Washington University in Washington, D.C., USA. Our senior communications advisor and the

previous host of Planetary Radio, Matt Kaplan, has been a staple at the summit for years. He moderates panels and co-anchors the live stream coverage. The upcoming conversation on international collaboration on the space road to Mars comes at a very interesting time. Space agencies around the world are scaling up their exploratory efforts. Meanwhile, in the United States, NASA science is facing the first budget cut in a decade. These cuts do impact the U.S.'s international partnerships in space, but the dedicated people behind the world's space agencies are still committed to working together to reach our goals on the moon and on Mars. Much of the technology and international cooperation necessary to get humans from the moon to Mars is going to be established in the coming era of crude lunar exploration through NASA's Artemis program and all of the

other lunar programs going on with different space agencies. In this discussion, you'll hear our guests refer to the Artemis Accords, which were developed by the United States in conjunction with NASA's Artemis program. The Accords serve as practical and modern principles to guide international cooperation in space exploration. You'll hear from representatives of the United States National Aeronautics and Space Administration, or NASA, the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency, JAXA, and the European Space Agency, or ESA. You'll also hear from the United Arab Emirates Space Agency and commercial space industry. First, we have Dr. Masami Onda, who is the director of the Washington, D.C. Office of JAXA. Then, Dr. D.D.A. Schmidt, who is the strategy and coordination group lead at ESA. He coordinates

human and robotic exploration for the European Space Agency. Then we have Dr. Rebecca Davis-Reed. She's the lead on international integration at NASA's Exploration Systems Development Mission Directorate. Before joining the directorate, she was the acting deputy director for exploration architecture and integration at the Johnson Space Center. Then we have Adnan Al-Raiz, who is the assistant director general of space operations and exploration at the United Arab Emirates Space Agency's Mohammed bin Rashid Space Center, or MBRSC. He's the senior director of the remote sensing department, so he and his team at the UAE are responsible for all downstream

activities for the MBRSC's Mars missions. And finally, Mike Gold, who's the chief growth officer at Redwire. That's an American aerospace manufacturer and space infrastructure technology company. He was formerly NASA's associate administrator in the Office of International and Interagency Relations. The discussion begins with Rebecca Davis-Reed. Rebecca Davis- There's a set of recurring tenets that are part of the Moon to Mars objectives, which are a set of themes that cut across all of our goals for spaceflight at NASA.

And as you can see, the very first recurring tenet there is international collaboration. So when we think about going back to the moon and going on to Mars and eventually exploring the solar system, we're not going to be going alone. And those international partnerships, the collaborations that we have with all the folks that you see here on the stage, as well as many more established and emerging partners, are going to be essential. Because when we explore, we're exploring for the benefit of humanity. And as you all know, being well involved in human spaceflight, it's hard. Spaceflight is hard, and it's complex.

And when you have that level of complexity, you really cannot do it alone, nor should we. Excellent. Thank you, Rebecca. Masami, I don't know if you would like to add some additional comments, particularly addressing the fact that we do have a lot of integration that has to take place if we're going to achieve the Artemis objectives. Yes. So I first wanted to thank each and every person in this room and also each and every panelist and speaker here, because we've all worked together very much as a team to reach this point, which is just the starting point, as I said, and the architecture, the objectives help

us very much doing so. In one of my first panels that I sat in the Humans Tomorrow Summit, maybe five or six years ago, I did mention that Japanese are very planful. We hate surprises. We want to be very much prepared. And we like to take incremental step-by-step approaches. And I think looking back, we have taken just that. And we've been able to do that with the leadership of the United States and also our partners so this is very much an accumulation in very much a way that I believe the Japanese government also and JAXA are happy to work

along with and as you say there will be a lot of integration a lot of work and We have still a lot of pieces that have to come together, not only Japanese, but other countries have to all come together, and I look forward to the discussions on that. Thank you. Can I say, and I think I said it on stage yesterday, I am so impressed by that pressurized vehicle that Japan might be able to provide for our exploration. Oh, I'm sure we will be able to provide, yes. Excellent, excellent. No surprise. Adnan, I am just as amazed by the dedication of what is a fairly small nation

that has made the huge commitment that the UAE has made to space exploration. And I wish we had time to share a video that showed not just what is happening in deep space, but the enormous amount of work that you're doing in terms of Earth science, Earth observation. But of course, we're looking out toward the moon and the red planet here. So talk about some of those highlights. Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thank you very much, Matt, for inviting me to the panel and also the organizers. I'm very honored to be back here at the Humans to Mars Summit. Also my esteemed panelists here, thank you for joining. So when it comes to the UAE National Space Program, we initiated that back in 2006 with the Sublight development program. Then we branched out to the HOPE mission, exploring the Mars and beyond that with the

human space flight program, which we had the first astronaut launch into the space station in 2019 and the second one to ISS for a long duration mission for six months and looking for missions beyond that. We have also a Mars 2117 strategy. We're going to talk more about it during the panel today and what is the mechanism to implement that strategy throughout the different programs and different initiatives. And all those programs, initiatives, and projects align with the global exploration roadmap. And also we have the international element always integral in all

of our programs and all of our missions. Every single project, every single mission that we worked on, we worked with international partners because we believe that space is for all. Space is a place where you need to work together in order to develop the science and technologies that will serve the humanity here on Earth. So to do that, we have to work together closely and align our goals and our objectives and our projects to achieve that. Thank you. I have to say, as impressive as missions like HOPE and the success of that mission and other things the UAE is doing, I am particularly

impressed by how ambitious an effort is being made to provide that airlock for a gateway. an effort is being made to provide that airlock for Gateway. Absolutely. I mean, that's another big element as part of the strategy, the UAE being part of the Gateway program through providing the airlock module, as well as supporting not only the development, but also the operation and having also the first Emirati going around the moon as part of this contribution. We are looking way beyond that as well, not only in the air locomotive, but also beyond that to achieve the overall goal of everyone here, basically, to reach Mars and send the human to the surface of Mars.

Didier, I turn to you now and that other very important partner in Artemis, not just ESA, but the member nations that are part of the European Space Agency that have individually become part of the Artemis Accords. Yeah, indeed. I mean, these are just very nice examples of the tip of the iceberg. That's what you see, you know, UAE providing a very significant contribution to the Gateway, Japan, very nice contribution to the Artemis architecture. What you cannot imagine is what is behind this and the years and years of preparation and discussions and interfaces and so on. So if we talk about

Moon to Mars, it's not just the hardware issues and so on, the provision, it's we have to test also for the Mars, human Mars mission, this collaboration. And that is very fundamental. If we look a little bit at what happened and what worked, also on the European side, providing the European service module, for example, to bring the Orion capsule around the Moon and back. What is interesting is once you're in charge of an end-to-end element that helps quite a lot. Of course there is the interfaces with the Orion but at least it's not too complicated so to say. I shouldn't say this because if the engineers back home hear this they will say he doesn't know what he talks about but okay anyway. So it's relatively straightforward providing

modules of course for the Gateway we do this as well. There has been hiccups, changing of the launcher, redesign, and so on. It's part of, let's say, of the pathway, so to say. But what we have learned also from the Mars sample return issues is that one has to be in charge end-to-end of a decent element. The other thing is we shall also be, as partners, involved as early as possible in the architecture reflections and the trades. If we keep waiting for the big picture, so to say, provided by NASA, for example, sometimes it's really much too late in our reflection process,

in the developments and so on. So that's why for example we have decided in 2019 to go for a lunar lander which is a decent lander so it's total mass nearly 10 tons and landing mass 1.5 tons and we do it end-to-end which means we launch it, we land it, we operate. But then of course the issue comes with what do we put on it and by when and this is And this is one of the first difficulties. If you're too much ahead compared to the other partner, you have to catch up at a certain stage. So being part of the reflection, again, in the architectures and the trades,

much before, let's say, the developments or a lead organization like NASA comes with a plan, is really essential. So we have to learn from this for the Mars initiative, which the message is very simple. We have really to team up all the partners well ahead and to do our reflection in common, and then to decide who does which part, and how far we could limit the interfaces. Because as soon as you have interfaces, it gets quite complicated. Mike, as somebody who probably has done as much as anyone I can think of to encourage the sort of international collaboration that we are hearing about here,

and that we see evidence of in the Artemis Accords, I would think that you have reason to be pretty proud. And I also know that you understand the difficulties of making this happen, as we have just heard from Didier. I wish I was getting a royalty per country that I need to work that out better. Yeah, I mean, the Artemis Accords, while it seems inevitable now, was extraordinarily challenging to get through. And the reason that we succeeded was the participation of three of the eight founding countries are right here. By the way, if you think the Artemis Accords are well written, that's because of Japan's contributions. Japan speaks far better English than we did and did a wonderful job. And by the way, Japan and Masami personally was one of, if not the first, foreign partner that we came to to discuss the Artemis Accords.

And again, Japan provided great feedback and support. And United Arab Emirates, the inclusivity of the accords was driven by UAE. UAE had a terrific broad vision for what the accord should be and that any country that signed the Outer Space Treaty could participate in the accord. So we have great gratitude to these countries for supporting it, for pushing the accords through. Now, with 39 countries having signed, the accords and the concept behind it was to have the broadest, most diverse global human spaceflight coalition in history. It is a dream made real. And every year I like to celebrate with a cake at an event. We have an anniversary celebration and we're going to need a bigger cake. I think we're going to need two cakes moving forward. So

extraordinarily excited about the success of the Accords. Space development is not just about better technology, but it's about building a better future for all of humanity. And that's what the norms of behavior in the Accords represent. Speaking of technology, though, for a moment, I just wanted to point out that the success of Martian exploration depends largely on the Moon and even reaching back to low Earth orbit.

A wonderful example of that are the rollout solar arrays that Red Wire is building and is operating now at the International Space Station. If these arrays are compacted like a carpet and then roll out, creating a lot more volume, a lot more energy. We're now building... And then ESA astronaut. Absolutely. It was an ESA astronaut. Absolutely, it was an ESA astronaut. You can see him. Although it was an Emirati astronaut who helped prepare it with Sultan.

So a great team effort, I must say. There you go. Absolutely. But these arrays are also going to be used and built for the Lunar Gateway. Those will be the largest solar arrays ever deployed by humanity. We're looking at applications on the lunar surface. So an example of how Leo, the moon, leads to Mars. We need to build the foundation and then implement. Additionally, at Redwire, we were very proud to print the first human meniscus in space. This is another example of how, on the International Space Station, we can create biotechnological solutions that we're going to need for Mars because you can't go to local hospital when you're on Mars we're going to need to bring medical

technology and who doesn't want a meniscus right like I think we could all want it and again kudos to international astronauts particularly Sultan Al-Nayidi during his long duration mission printed that meniscus so we're very grateful again to our friends at Emirates. We printed it via the biofabrication facility, the BFF. The BFF is what allowed us to print with human tissue, and I'm very proud to, I don't know, not quite announce, we've been talking about this.

We printed cardiovascular tissue for the first time on the International Space Station. Brought back live cardiovascular tissue from the ISS for the very first time. And if we're going to have a safe mission to Mars, if we're going to be able to repair heart damage, et cetera, these are all technologies that are key. So my message is to look at Martian exploration holistically,

that we need LEO operations. We need the ISS. We need Gateway. We need surface operations. This is how we're going to be successful as we go to Mars. A couple of other technologies just to mention, we had cameras on the CLPS mission, the Intuitive Machine Mission for hazard avoidance. And also with NASA, we're working a very innovative program called MASON, where we're looking to take regolith and create berms, roads, even structures on the

moon. Again, key technologies if we're going to be successful on Mars. And as I began with the Artemis Accords, let me close with the Artemis Accords. Again, we want a better future in space for all of humanity. And if we continue to lean into our values, support norms of behavior, such as peaceful cooperation, interoperability, avoiding debris, full release of scientific data, then we can have a future that's going to be much more Star Trek and much less Star Wars. Thank you, Mike. Live long and prosper. I'm with you there. A wonderful introduction to why this is so important. We all know, though, that hiccups take place. Challenges come along periodically.

We talked a little bit about one of them yesterday that has just surfaced in the last few weeks, and that's Mars sample return, which is now beginning this new process of being reconsidered. And of course, ESA has always been a big part of that effort, did you? Using that, not really to talk specifically as much about Mars sample return, but about how these things, when they surface, are handled across an international collaboration. Rebecca, I'll look to you. That has to add some challenge. Well, I think anytime you do something hard, like spaceflight and complex like these missions, we don't expect them to go perfectly, right right which is part of the reason why we build frameworks for collaboration so that when problems arise we're able to work

with our partners and try to figure out what the next steps are and ultimately as Mike said the goal is not just to get there but to get there together so we do what we can we figure it out it not easy, but if it was easy, I don't think it would be quite as exciting as it is. Space is hard. Space is hard. Yeah, I mean, ESA, the strength of ESA, it's 22 member states,

and we have this tri-annual meetings at ministerial level to get the funding for the three next years and beyond. Therefore, when you start a project, when you have 22 countries breathing in my neck, if I can say so, every day, you have to be very, very sharp, so to say, and you construct the future with them. Once it's done, it is a stable big boat going ahead. So unlike in the US, where you have more an annual process and

Congress can change mind and others as well. So you have one partner which is relatively stable and the other partner which can have ups and downs if I put it simply. Therefore the issue of course is therefore these interfaces. And I come back to the point I made just before. We provide the Earth Return Orbiter. And on this is a US-provided system to catch and grab and release and so on the samples. So we went ahead. And therefore, the interfaces, we had to be a little bit ahead and get some interfaces. And that we have run into this kind of problem.

There are other problems, of course. So again, in the future, we have to think about an end-to-end part of a bigger program where every partner is really in charge end-to-end. I think the pressurized rover is a very nice example. Japline did an excellent job in foreseeing the sweet spot, so to say, and to say, I'm doing it. I'm doing it, and I will be in charge. Of course, NASA will be lending it.

So I think this is a very nice example of how we should do things. If you complexify it too much, we can only look for problems. We can afford problems now, so to say, in the Moon to Mars objective, but we can't afford these kind of problems once, you know, we will really start to have a human mission to Mars. Because that multiplies by a factor 10 the complexity. The fact that it's hard is why it's worth doing. The beauty of space is that it's so difficult, so challenging, that it forces us to come together as humanity

to be able to conquer and succeed with these problems. And if you look at the Artemis program, I appreciate you mentioning that, you know, as a partner it's been a little bit up and down. If you look at human spaceflight beyond low Earth orbit at NASA, failure hasn't just been an option, it's been a little bit up and down. If you look at human spaceflight beyond low Earth orbit at NASA, failure hasn't just been an option, it's been a historical certainty that we have failed to sustain a human spaceflight program beyond LEO since Apollo. And that is why the Artemis program was designed to overcome that challenge,

that it was bipartisan. And more importantly, and this is why I was brought to NASA, it had to be international. The international aspect not only benefits in terms of capabilities and finance, but sustainability. It creates the partnerships, it creates the political longevity for the program, and that's why it's going to be successful. And in terms of problems with Mars Sampler return, I can tell you as the private sector representative on the panel, we don't have challenges, we just have opportunities. And I believe that as we've already seen with NASA soliciting ideas for commercial participation, how can we leverage what we've done in the CLPS program that we will actually come out

of this with a more innovative, with a better program that we began initially. We do these things not because they're easy, but because they are hard, said JFK. Beyond Artemis, it's hard to think of a mission like a planetary science mission in deep space that is not an international collaboration at some level. I think about MMX, the Mars Moons Explorer, a sample return mission, which has a great deal of international cooperation. Yes, it does have. It's a mouthful, really, of international partners. And also, at the beginning, I was, as an international relations person, almost worried that we have too many. But this is very very good I've like never seen

the amount of attention like I presented in my presentation all because of international cooperation I've never seen this amount of international integration and cooperation that we've been working on in the past years we've've had the ISS, we've had Copious, we'd had what, CEOS, GEO, all of this, gap analysis and all of this, but I think we've over the decades learned a lot how to integrate our program planning together, and I think we've reached one sort of way

to make all of this happen with the architecture in Artemis. And like Mike said, I can only see opportunities ahead. Adnan, I think of the HOPE mission as well, which became a partnership between the UAE, and in particular, a school in the United States that became a real partner in the UAE and in particular a school in the United States that became a real partner in the UAE and I think helped to ensure the success of that mission. Absolutely. I mean the Hope mission also other missions are great examples of that element of international collaboration. We work on that mission with three main universities in the United States and also the industries here and with NASA as well as as well as the international science community

to achieve that common goal to send the mission and study the Martian atmosphere. We had a successful mission, still operational and collecting more science data that's available to the international science community through our science data center. The same philosophy applied in all of our programs and missions. When it comes to the Mars 2117 program, our 100th year strategy to send human to Mars and building a settlement on Mars. And the reason it's 2117 because it was launched in 2017. So when we started working on that program development of this strategy for implementation, we looked into the global exploration roadmap. We looked into the global exploration roadmap.

We looked into the Moon to Mars architecture and the work that's happening internationally. We linked that with our own strategy and our own plans. And accordingly, we defined the gaps there in terms of the science and technologies and the global exploration roadmap, linked that with our strategy, and accordingly, we developed multiple programs and multiple missions starting from the lunar exploration program and development of the missions to the surface of the moon which we launched the first robotic mission last year and now we're developing the second and third missions and all those missions had science and instruments and experiments from the international

community we branched out into the human life sciences. So it's not only the robotics and the engineering elements important, but also the human elements. Because they were sending humans to Mars, and we need to be able to develop these science and technology that will enable us to sustain a long journey. So we started our life sciences program, developed the analog programs. We passed within the first eight months of total isolation confinement mission. And Friday, we're going to have the first Emirati participating on the HERA mission, the analog mission with the team at Johnson Space Center.

For the first time, there's a crew member from the UAE participating in that 45 days of isolation confinement, UAE participating that 45 days of isolation confinement as well as we have science and experiments coming from the UAE researchers and students and scientists integrated into that mission beyond that we have the gateway and being part of the gateway and providing the the airlock module so all those and we have many many more examples on how we work internationally with our partners here in the US and Europe Europe, in Japan, around the world. And all our missions, we look for opportunities for where we can work together.

We can host payloads or develop capabilities together. Because at the end of the day, when you're developing the architecture, every nation should contribute in a way or another. Whether you are a small nation or a big nation, you have to be part of that. And the UAE is taking this seriously by having the 2117s commitment that we're going to continue investing in science and technologies. And we're going to do that collaboratively with everyone. We'll be right back after this short break.

Hi, y'all. LeVar Burton here. We'll be right back after this short break. it is to encourage that curiosity in a young explorer's life. That's why I'm excited to share with you a new program from my friends at the Planetary Society. It's called the Planetary Academy, and anyone can join. Designed for ages 5 through 9 by Bill Nye and the curriculum experts at the Planetary Society, the Planetary Academy is a special membership subscription for kids and families who love space. Members get quarterly mail packages that take them on learning adventures through the many worlds of our solar system and beyond. Each package includes images and factoids, hands-on activities, experiments and games, and special surprises. A lifelong passion for space, science, and discovery starts when we're young.

Give the gift of the cosmos to the explorer in your life. Rebecca, the nations behind those 39 and counting flags that we saw, some of those nations are not as active, as prominent, as accomplished in their space activities as the ones that we see represented here. And I wonder as they come into the Artemis Accords, what's in it for those small nations that have fledgling space programs if they have one at all? So I'm gonna give you you a short answer, and then I'm going to kick it over to Mike to give you the longer answer. But as we heard, even from our well-established partners that are on this stage, there's a wide range of ways that you can participate in the missions. And it's everything

from building something as big as a pressurized rover to sending a science experiment on a Hera. It's not all in space. We also have a lot of opportunities to cooperate in terrestrial research. So you don't have to come with a rover or a lander. There's a lot of ways to be a part of this really extraordinary undertaking that we as a global community are doing to go back into space. Well said, Rebecca. The countries that don't have space agencies and are taking their first steps into this brave new world are the ones that I'm most excited about. Again, the accords were designed to be the broadest

and most diverse global space-light coalition in history. And in some ways, the accords were reactions of the IGA and the ISS. Well, obviously, the ISS has been a tremendous engine for international cooperation, hundreds of experiments from hundreds of different countries. And sorry, I'm a recovering attorney, so now I'm going to talk about the IGA, which is the Intergovernmental Agreement, which is a document that runs the ISS. There's a few countries that are involved, Japan, US, ESA, among them, that are part

of the IGA. And it's very difficult, if not impossible, for other countries to join the IGA. And therefore, with the Artemis Accords, we wanted to create a paradigm that no matter how wealthy the country was or how developed it was, for Emirates, say, airlock, or with Japan, the rover, and I drove a Toyota today to just you know that no matter how large or wealthy or how small or modest that there's a place for you in the Artemis program and even it's a couple of grad students in Ecuador or Bahrain that's contributing looking at data that's important that's a. And that's spreading the benefits of space throughout the world, which is what the intent of the Artemis Accords is.

Absolutely. I think it's important that we always consider the other nations, that they don't have space programs or activities to be part of your programs. And this is something that we are considering as well. And we did that. When it comes to the lunar exploration program, for example, the first rover, we had one idea which we took samples from different nations, from different scientists through a call that went out. We took those samples, we put them on the wheels

between the browsers of the four wheels that we had on our rover, taking it to the surface of the moon and using the instruments that we had on the rover to study the interaction between the samples and the lunar regolith and provide that science and data to them. Unfortunately the landing was not successful. We are there but in 10,000 pieces, but we're going to do that again on the second rover and the third rover.

It's an opportunity. It's a very simple, straightforward experiment and it's an opportunities for everyone. You don't need to be a well-developed nation in the space in order to be part of that experiment. We have also other programs which we call the Pilot Hosting Initiative, which we develop every year, a small mission, and we, in collaboration with the United Nations, the COPUS, the Office of Outer Space, we launch this program every year and open the opportunities for other nations to propose their payloads, their science, their instruments and host it in our satellite and launch that every year. I think it's important that even for us that are new in the space and developing as well

our capabilities and programs, I think it's always important to consider also other nations within your region and also internationally to provide them opportunities to be part of the space programs. Usually the way we work is, let's say at working level, we have ideas and we confront them and so on, and then we have technical interchange meetings. At the end, we do memorandum of understandings

once we are stabilized in what we want to do. Maybe we can also revert it and a little bit like the Accords, make a kind of agreement well before on who should or can provide what. It's a little bit what has been done with the Japanese rover. They hadn't done a phase A even when they started saying we will do this and NASA accepted. So by taking this example, I think again, we have to work together on a human to Mars architecture together and then we have to see who could provide what well in advance and then sign a kind of agreement because we have to do these kind of things. It's not just the word that counts. And then we go ahead.

So maybe there is something also to be done differently in the future and not just waiting, so to say, until we know exactly what we do and then we do an agreement. So that's exactly what we're trying to do. So thank you for setting up that great thing. But with the architecture, it allows both large established countries and smaller countries that have nascent space capabilities to look well into our long-term plans and see where they can fit in and where their own industry, where their own interests align with the architecture. And so our process now is to create study agreements, which basically do just what you said, Didi.

They allow us to have these conversations with countries that think they might want to play a role. And we've seen more and more something that I find very exciting, which is some of the countries that don't have an established space program but want to participate are working with their industry to come up with ideas that the government can then interesting to them to what we need in the architecture in a way that allows us to have very long-term forward-looking conversations without having the burdensome like very large MOU or IGA type of legal framework that needs to be put in place. And I find that very exciting. And not just because it allows us to cooperate with new partners, but as Mike said, you know, when we have problems, the great part about that is it allows us to cooperate with new partners but as Mike said you know when we have problems the great part about that is it allows us to innovate and as you've heard for the last you know day and a half what got us to Leo is not going to get us back to the moon is not going to get us to Mars

and bringing new voices into those conversations allows us to innovate in ways that we might not have thought of if we were just looking at our own history. I think Didi's exactly correct that we need to be proactive. We need to be intentional, particularly about the smaller countries. Again, United Arab Emirates does a great job. You put the United into United Arab Emirates, bring the world together. And kudos to Rebecca and your colleagues at NASA that as we've looked at the moon to Mars architecture, you have gone out to the international architecture, you have gone out to

the international partners. You have gone out to the private sector as well, even before those goals are defined to get our feedback. And I think that's a bit of a sea change in the ways that things have been done in the past. And again, I applaud Pam Melroy and Bill Nelson and everyone at NASA for not only changing the future, but changing it by altering the way we look at talking to our partners first, then coming up with a plan and proceeding per, I think, the vision that you're articulating, Deedee. Yeah. So the message is join the party.

There's cake. Absolutely. Apparently a big cake. Yes. Getting larger every time. We're going to get to questions from out there in the H2M audience. So if you want to start lining up with the microphone, you're welcome to do that. It's no secret that there is another collaborative group out there that is looking for partners.

Not, I'd have to say, with the success in terms of certainly quantitative success of the Artemis Accords. And I just wonder about thoughts that any of you might have about this other coalition that is hoping to bring nations together to put them on the moon and elsewhere. So I think it's an indication of the success of the accords. Remember that the accords were intended to be a beginning of a conversation, not an ending. And to the extent that other nations, even those that haven't signed the accords, are talking about how we implement the Outer Space Treaty. The Outer Space Treaty is a wonderful document, the constitution of outer space. But you can't take the Outer Space Treaty and give it to our engineers and say, here, do this. We need to take it down a level to say, for example,

treaty says avoid harmful interference. Well, how do we avoid harmful interference? And that's the safety zone description. We communicate. We are public and transparent relative to where we're doing and what we're going on. And while I certainly hope every country signs the accords, I think they're excellent, buys the course, but to the extent that

other nations are having that dialogue about how do we take the Outer Space Treaty from an idea to practice, that's a win. That's a win for us and it's a win for the world. Anyone else want to comment? I also think that we, well, from the beginning of the Artemis Accords, we've been saying that this combination of a web, maybe, of instruments that are non-binding, also legally binding. A good example was our rover agreement, complementing perhaps the non-binding nature of the Artemis Accords, but they do work together. I think all of this happening, not just in a part of the world, but also globally, we will see probably an evolution, I think, in the future and see ways to work together. All right. Let's turn to the audience. And you're first up, young man. How does the lack of established nations like Russia and China affect your progress?

Of the Artemis Accords. Oh, gotcha. Okay. I mean, so. And great question, by the way. I'd hate to see what your second question is. Softball early. I'd hate to see what your second question is.

Softball early. There's a great deal in the accords that candidly is a reaction to the way China is or is not, probably more accurately, doing things. The concept of the full, fair, open, and timely release of scientific data is an example of a provision of the accords that was inserted because we're not seeing China act like that. And we want to encourage them to do so. Transparency, which is the very spine of the Artemis Accords, is candidly another issue that we have with China, that they're not clear about what they're doing, when they're doing it, how they're doing it. And the hope with the accords, and I go back to my legal training, as an attorney, I believe in precedent. And even if China and Russia

haven't signed the accords or don't sign the accords, by embracing these values of transparency, openness, freedom of science, we're creating a precedent that puts pressure even on the countries that haven't signed the accords. So yes, ultimately it would be better if China and Russia would sign the accords, even better if they'd actually abide by the accords. But even if they don't, I believe the accords are a forcing function. We're showing what good looks like. We're establishing a precedent that has influence, not just on the signatories, but even on those two nations that you mentioned that haven't signed. ARTUR GARCIA- There is probably another angle to this.

Here we talk about cooperation, but cooperation without competition doesn't work so well. And to look back at the Apollo era, if you are, and we have the Olympics coming up in Paris, if you're the only one in front, you don't run twice to beat your own record. And therefore, the competition, also with China, has a very positive aspect. Without it, I'm not sure we would be as accurate and as fast and as collaborative without competition. Thank you, Lucas. I think good answers to your tough question. Hi. The Artemis Accords has a lot of elements and things, frameworks from the Outer Space Treaty.

Have there been discussions of looking at other treaties like the registration agreement or things like the Madrid Protocol for examining how we go forward, engage in deconfliction, and engage in like cooperative or even just kind of neighborly surface operations on the moon and Mars? Thank you. So while the Accords focus on the Outer Space Treaty because it's the largest and most comprehensive, you also see several other agreements and treaties mentioned throughout the accords. Just to give an example, the agreement

on the rescue of astronauts. That fundamental to the accords is preventing conflict and preserving life. And the countries that have signed the accords reinforce their commitment to the agreement on the rescue of astronauts. Whether those astronauts, by the way, come from countries that have signed the accords or not. And then you look at how that reaffirmation

impacts other aspects of the accord, such as interoperability. The more interoperable the systems are, the more likely we're going to be able to support a safe and successful and expeditious rescue mission. So I'd recommend reading the Accords. They're a page-turner. It's a quick read, but you will see mentions of other treaties, the Registration Convention, the Agreement on the Rescue of Astronauts, and the Outer Space Treaty referenced in the Accords. Relative to, you know, other treaties and not treaties but other concepts and agreements that are out there, we stuck with the United Nations treaties because they've been accepted, and that's what we're going to leverage.

But again, a beginning of a conversation, not an ending. That the accords were meant to inspire dialogue, to go to COPUS, to go to the United Nations, look at what we can do that's binding, and what the conversations need to be in the future. The accords are a catalyst for development. So like Mike said, the different instruments, if you seriously read through the whole document and try to analyze it, there are parts that are already written in those treaties or agreements, legal instruments, or agreements, legal instruments, and those that go a step forward in trying to specify the practical issues that will come as the missions are upon us. And we are, what, 50 years since the Outer Space Treaties and the accompanying treaties

around that, agreements around that. So we need to pick up these questions about deconfliction or safety zones, how do we decide where to land, how long to stay there, things like that and all the technical questions that accompany that. So I think the Artemis Accords does spur international discussion on that whether or not you are have signed to it or not and I think that's that's the value of Artemis Accords. And I will say the Artemis Accords are more than just paper.

So the Artemis Accords signatories work together on a very regular basis to talk about the issues that are the focus. And I think right now we're working a great deal on non-interference, also interoperability, as you said. So these are things that we're trying to create real deliverables that will support global exploration.

Jim Green. Okay. I love the Artemis Accords. It connects well with the Outer Space Treaty, which I think is one of the reasons why many countries are embracing that. And so the peaceful uses of outer space is where we can all work together, and we need to do more of those things. So it's moving in the right direction.

Well, on one of those pages is the preservation of heritage sites. I really dearly love that. And it's not just because of the U.S. There's now many nations that have put things down on the moon that may be considered heritage sites. What is our next step in that? Have we declared what those sites are? We need a solar system historic landmark registry, I think.

Or we could just go to UNESCO. It's a great point. By the way, Dr. Jim Green, former chief scientist at NASA, when I was at NASA, you know, we'd go through these meetings where everyone at the agency would have a word, all the Senate directors, et cetera, would take hours. And the reason I would stay on the call was because at the end of it, we would hear from Jim Green. And he would talk about the science, the wonder of discovery, and remind us on these calls why we're all doing this in the first place. So let's have a round of applause for Jim and

everything he did for us. Enthusiastic applause. And we will hear from Jim later today as part of the H2M program. Wise to do so. So how are we going to take care of those landmarks? So I will say in the accords, again, they were intended to be a catalyst for a dialogue. And we could have spent pages defining what a heritage site is. Instead, we chose to note the issue and set the agenda that this is a topic we need to discuss and to move forward with. And I think this is a good example of an idea that should be discussed at the United Nations, that should be discussed in the COPUS, that should be discussed in other NGOs to provide further definition. So the accords were a beginning, really table setting for these are the issues that we need to tackle, and there is plenty of work left to be done. Rebecca, that speaks to that this is a living document, the

accords. Yeah. You know, as Mike said, this is the beginning of the discussion, not the end. And Masami-san said the same thing, right? This is how we start the discussion. This is how we provide a forum where all of the interested nations can come together. Because, you know, what the U.S. thinks is not the final word. We want to make sure that our partners are presenting their perspectives so that, you know, as I've said over and over, when we go, we don't go alone. And I think the Artemis Accords are a great framework where we can have these difficult discussions about, how do you identify the heritage sites?

It sounds easy. It's not, as you well know. And the same thing with, how do you define noninterference? It's incredibly complex, because it goes well beyond policy to very specific technical discussions of things like plume interference and lighting and shadows. And it is much more than just a great idea that we sit around and, you know, nod at each other and say, it's great, we're collaborating. We really are trying to figure out how to implement

that partnership in a meaningful way as we go back to the moon. We are out of time, panelists. This has been a wonderful discussion. I come back, though, Mike, to your point that the Artemis Accords, perhaps beyond the achievements that it enables in space within the solar system, is what it may do for all of humanity. And let's hope that someday when the United Federation

planets comes together that they look back on the Artemis Accords as one step toward that achievement. You've broken the code for the ultimate goal. Thank you, everyone. Please acknowledge this terrific international panel. Now, let's check in with Dr. Bruce Betts, the Chief Scientist of the Planetary Society, for What's Up. Hey, Bruce.

Hey, Sarah. Nice to be back from vacation. How was your time? Hunky-dory swell. Yeah, sounds good. Hope you got to play with a lot of dogs. I do, but I forget to do that every day since they attack me in the house, but yeah. We had a new dog recently, so we've got three now. Does that mean extra doggo sounds and what's up going forward? Yes, definitely.

So this week we got to share one of Matt Kaplan's adventures to the Humans to Mars Summit, and I've never gotten to go myself. Have you been to the summit before? I've been to summits, but I've never been to the Humans to Mars summit, and I've never gotten to go myself. Have you been to the summit before? I've been to summits, but I've never been to the Humans to Mars summit. I'm hoping I get to go one of these days. It always sounds like Matt has such a fun time. Matt has a fun time almost anywhere, especially if they're talking space, though. So he's just a fun guy who loves his space. Well, we were talking all about international collaboration and what it's going to actually take to get human presence permanently on Mars. But I wanted to ask you, as our chief scientist, what are the actual benefits of having a permanent settlement off

of Earth, say on the moon or even on Mars? Well, part of the benefit is what science you can do. Obviously, humans in the loop, whether they're going out and collecting rocks or whether they're just teleoperating things. I mean, now at Mars, the time delay is so bad you can't even begin to teleoperate. You can do things autonomously. So you can just get a lot more done, a lot more experience. do things autonomously. So you can just get a lot more done, a lot more experience. And then I think there's a big component is just perception and things I'm not an expert in, like sociology and people and psychology. And it's a profound thing to do that. Now, the flip side is it's really hard to do. It's really risky and it costs a ton of money. So, definite trade-offs. But if you had all the

money and all the engineering in the world, it would be super groovy. Yeah. I imagine there's a lot of things that we could potentially do with spacecraft on Mars. A lot better if we were actually there because of that time delay. Right now, we have to rely a lot on autonomous systems to navigate and things like that. We're just sitting back here on Earth waiting to hear whether or not it landed versus being there in real time to kind of help navigate those issues. Yeah, it would still be very tricky for the landing. I don't really see people flying in with a joystick, but I find there are studies in the past that you do people in orbit first, which seems, I don't know that anyone would ever be able to approve something where you go that far and then don't go to the surface. But one of the many hard, dangerous parts of that is trying to get the mass required for humans down to the surface in a thin atmosphere, which would be exceedingly challenging, and then getting off the surface.

But if you're there, you can actually do that, you know, throw a bunch of rubbers down and have fun joysticking them and cover a lot more terrain a lot faster, even if you're not down on the surface. We just need to work on our drop pod technology. Get everyone in orbit and then just hell divers our way to the surface. We just need to work on our drop pod technology. Get everyone in orbit and then just hell divers our way to the surface. Yes, we need to work on our drop pods, whether it be so you're hell diving and not a halo anyway. I've done both. Yeah, that is going to be really challenging, though. I mean, even just landing a rover, like we've gone from basically bubble wrapping a rover to dropping it

off of a sky crane, but the systems necessary to sustain even a single human on the way down would be extensive. We've got some issues we've got to sort. No, I mean, that's a huge challenge because Mars, as people probably mostly know but I will remind, is one of the, by far, the hardest places to land on in the solar system. Because if you have no atmosphere, you can use retro rockets on the way down like the moon. If you have lots of atmosphere like Earth or Venus, you can use parachutes and heat shields and relax on the way down. But if you're Mars and you have a thin atmosphere, you can't come in with retro rockets right off the bat, and it's really hard.

There's not enough atmosphere, which is why we always land in some of the lowest places on Mars so far because it's actually significant to get more atmosphere to make sure you can actually stop at the end. And the more we add mass, the more it gets challenging, and the more they have to come up with these, well, at least they choose to come up with these wacky techniques that I always predict will fail, and thankfully I'm always wrong.

At least for the wacky techniques. Yeah, we could aim for Valles Marineris, get as much air on the way down. Well, it's true, but it turns out Vallus Marineris is on the Tharsis Bulge, and so there's still not as much atmosphere as if you go out and beyond Phallus Marineris. But yes, that would be cool. Phallus Marineris is huge. It's deep. It's a really big canyon. Did you know? Did you know? I would love to go see that. I would love to see some little helicopters flying in there to go check that place out. Just imagine the layers of Martian history that are just written in that rock record all the way down that canyon.

Yeah, I've stared at them from orbital stuff. There's a lot of Mars history there and a lot of challenge to get down to the surface. That's awesome. All right, what is our random space fact this week? There's Monaco Grand Prix and the Indianapolis 500. But that's not relevant to our space factor. We're talking surface area. The surface area of Earth is approximately, very

approximately equal to the surface area of Venus plus the surface area of the moon. Huh. So Venus is a little bit smaller than Earth. What's the difference in surface area about the Earth's moon? About one moon. There you go. That's actually really cool.

Alright. Everybody go out there and look up at the night sky, and think about what it would be like to watch a racetrack on Mars. Thank you, and good night. We've reached the end of this week's episode of Planetary Radio, but we'll be back next week with more space science and exploration. If you love the show, you can get Planetary Radio t-shirts at planetary.org slash shop, along with lots

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Pasadena, California, and is made possible by our members from all around the world. You can join us and help build a bright future for exploration on the moon and Mars at planetary.org slash join. Mark Hilverda and Ray Paoletta are our associate producers. Andrew Lucas is our audio editor. Josh Doyle composed our theme, which is arranged and performed by Peter Schlosser. And until next week, Ad Astra.