Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Lou Friedman Reviews the Augustine Human Spaceflight Report

Episode Date: November 2, 2009

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Lou Friedman, on the flexible path to Mars, this week on Planetary Radio. Hi everyone, welcome to Public Radio's travel show that takes you to the final frontier. I'm Matt Kaplan of the Planetary Society. The Augustine Report appeared a few days ago, and space policymakers have talked about little else since. We'll get one view of the Commission's findings from the Planetary Society's Executive Director as Dr. Friedman returns to the PlanRad microphone. On a program note, we've decided to delay airing our conversation with Carl Sagan's wife and longtime collaborator Ann Druyan until next week, when we'll be able to share some big news with you. But there's much more to look forward to in this edition of our show. Bill Nye is intrigued by a just-discovered ribbon of energy out at the edge of our solar system,

while Emily Lakdawalla says a puzzling formation on Saturn isn't really so odd. We'll finish up when astronomer Bruce Betts guides us around the solar system once again. That'll be a new edition of What's Up? with a great new prize for this week's space trivia contest. Six, five, four, three, two, one. Two, one, ignition. Liftoff of Ares I-X. Testing concepts for the future of new rocket design. Only the first stage of the Ares I-X was the real thing,

but the roughly three-minute suborbital test on October 28th was the first real launch in the Constellation program, NASA's current plan to take Americans back to the moon and beyond. Lou Friedman will have more to say about the apparently very successful trial run in a couple of minutes. There's more news at planetary.org, including a detailed update on Spirit and Opportunity, the Mars Exploration Rovers, along with Emily's Planetary Society blog.

I'll be right back with Lou Friedman. Here's Bill. Hey, Bill Nye, the planetary guy here, Vice President of the Planetary Society. And this week I had the great privilege of delivering the Astronomy 101 lecture at Cornell University in the very same lecture hall in which I took Astronomy 101 from one of the Planetary Society's founders, Dr. Carl Sagan. Anyway, in this lecture, we talked about relativity. Now, relativity is a striking thing, an unusual thing. These guys did these careful experiments in the 1800s, and no matter what they did, the speed of light was always the same.

East or west, north or south, up or down, they always got the same speed for the speed of light was always the same. East or west, north or south, up or down, they always got the same speed for the speed of light. So a couple decades later, Albert Einstein's thinking about this, and he changed our world. Well, in an unrelated story, or is it intimately related story, the Interstellar Boundary Explorer spacecraft has discovered a ribbon of very bright energy at the edge of our solar system. And everybody expected this edge of the solar system to be like a bubble, to be uniform in every direction.

But it's not. There's something going on that we completely do not understand about the edge of our solar system and that we are moving through this interstellar medium, all these particles from other stars that are drifting around at supersonic speeds. And instead of being a smooth bubble, it has a sharp ribbon-like edge. Do you know why that is? Nobody knows why that is, but maybe somebody listening to this broadcast and somebody in a classroom right now will get to thinking about this observation and change our world again. Well, thanks for listening. I gotta fly, Bill Nye the Planetary Guy. Its actual name is the Review of U.S. Human Spaceflight Plans Committee. That probably explains why it is commonly called

the Augustine Commission or Committee. Headed by former Lockheed Martin chairman and CEO Norman Augustine, the committee was asked to examine NASA's plans for new spacecraft, systems, and missions involving astronauts. The 155-page final report was issued on October 22, but even before that, the committee's preliminary conclusions were generating plenty of heat. We have a link to the committee's website, including the full report, at planetary.org slash radio. Lou Friedman is the executive director of the Planetary Society, which produces Planetary Radio.

Lou has spent decades watching and commenting on the rise and fall of plans for space exploration. He has greeted this new report with tentative optimism. We sat down to talk about it a few days ago. Lou, always a pleasure. Welcome back to Planetary Radio. Hi, Matt. Always a pleasure to be here. We happen to be speaking the day after the apparently very successful test of the Ares 1X, part of the Constellation program. Any comments? Well, I think it's great that they

pulled off the test, and I actually think that NASA did the right thing by doing a test which some people consider premature because it was not the real rocket. But I think the idea of test and learn is a good one. It was an expensive one, to be sure. But that's what it takes as we're going to develop human space flight. So I think it was good that they did that test. Of course, as you know, there's a lot of questions about the development of the Ares I rocket and whether or not this is going to fit into that plan. I'm skeptical. And that, of course, leads us to the major topic for discussion today, and that is the Augustine Report, which seems to have stirred things up, but perhaps not entirely

the way the Commission fully intended. And I wanted to get your take on this. Well, I think the Commission Report was terrific. Norm Augustine's group was an outstanding group, and they did as good a job as I expected them to do. And their recommendations are terrific, I might say. It's just what I call the right mid-course correction to the Constellation program that is needed. However, I think they didn't present it with the best way they could. They emphasized the money aspect, and they emphasized the difficulties in the program and things that had to be changed. What they really should have emphasized is that this is a great opportunity now to carry out the mandate of exploration beyond Earth orbit,

sending humans out into interplanetary space for the first time, and to do so in a way that will excite the public by creating great milestones along the way, knowing that the destination is Mars. They said the ultimate destination is Mars. They need to involve the public in that. And they didn't do a good enough job on the involving of the public. So you'd have liked a little less engineering and a little more inspiration. Well, I would like a little more inspiration.

Now, to be fair to the Augustine Committee, that wasn't their job. They were a review committee, and they were hired for their engineering, if you will. The inspiration is going to have to come from the politicians, starting with the president and then finishing up with the Congress. That's where the inspiration has to come from. If we're going to send humans out into interplanetary space with an international endeavor, that's not something the country can do as an engineering decision. That's something we have to do with involving our political leadership. You seem to be finding so much more in this report, and I think it's all there, than is getting covered in the major media. I mean, if you were to listen simply to CNN and even public radio, all you really hear is, boy, we need more money if we're going to make any of this work.

Well, Matt, I'm not a journalist. I'm in the space program. I think I understand things from a perspective that is not just looking for the quick story or the initial aspect of it, but more to understand how it might fit into the whole thing. but more to understand how it might fit into the whole thing. Certainly the emphasis on needing more money and certainly the change to the program is upsetting to many already existing in the program. That's natural. But I don't think they need to take any shame in what they've done. In fact, Augustine himself made this entirely clear.

He said this was the right program at the time it was proposed. They started off sensibly in the development of the Ares I rocket. But times have changed. It's taking longer than expected. They didn't get the budget that was promised. And there was a lot of failure on the part of those developing the program to inspire people because they got bogged down on this lunar base aspect. So what they're doing is still taking the same principles, send humans

beyond Earth orbit, still developing the heavy lift launch vehicle, which is something that is crucially needed if we're going to get beyond Earth orbit, but now making exploratory objective focus on Mars and milestones on the way to Mars. Take a flexible path to Mars. Do things that you can do in the interim before you have to commit to the landing system, not just for Mars, but for the moon. You can make a lot of milestones along the way, and you can do those as you learn things. That's what's so good about the test philosophy, even with the Ares I-X. You learn things along the way. You have a flexible path. You can go a little bit further each time and advance the program and engage the public.

I think the head of the Ares program, I heard him quote before the launch yesterday. He said something. He quoted Wernher von Braun. That's what he did. And he said, yeah, one test is worth a thousand theories or something like that. Well, a test is a very important aspect of the program, but it's not just tests. It's milestones of flight. You know, I keep thinking of the Gemini program, which didn't go anywhere.

It was only tests of technologies that would get us to the Apollo program that was going to the moon. But Gemini was enthralling to the public. It was a first this and a first that. Well, we can do the same thing now. We can have first to go beyond the moon. We can have first to go into interplanetary space. We can have first to do a one-month mission, a three-month mission, a six-month mission. We can be the first to land on an asteroid. We can have first to perform surface operations around asteroids.

We can be the first to get to Phobos and Deimos. These are all milestones that are on the way to Mars that are intrinsically interesting, but at the sameimos. These are all milestones that are on the way to Mars that are intrinsically interesting, but at the same time, they are technical steps that advance human spaceflight and don't just endlessly go in orbit around Earth. You're really up about all this stuff. Is this rose-colored glasses? Because a lot of other people are, you know, kind of, well, this is not making us feel as good as you. Well, I am a cheerleader. That's part of the job of being the head of a public interest group for space exploration, is to cheer the space program, especially if it's going to set out on doing the right things. I've also been known as a critic, and I like to say that I'm cynical at times, too.

But, yes, I am up on it. I think this is an opportunity. Now, having said that, if the opportunity is not seized, if the president and the administration don't want to advance human space exploration, they could make the same negative decision that we made in the 1960s about the shuttle. The shuttle is a wonderful piece of technology. It's a wonderful development. NASA deserves great credit. But it was a terrible programmatic decision. It was build a rocket and go nowhere. And that bogged us down for 30 years. They could make that same kind of decision. I hope not. So while I say I'm excited about the opportunity, I'm

actually, to be honest, 50-50 about which way this decision is going to go. They have to engage the international community. They have to make it exciting. And they have to do more than just say, okay, let NASA build a rocket and we'll figure out later where to go. Lou Friedman of the Planetary Society will share more of his thoughts about the just-released Augustine Commission report on human spaceflight when we return. This is Planetary Radio. I'm Sally Ride. After becoming the first American woman in space, I dedicated myself to supporting space exploration and the education and inspiration of our youth.

That's why I formed Sally Ride Science, and that's why I support the Planetary Society. The Society works with space agencies around the world and gets people directly involved with real space missions. It takes a lot to create exciting projects like the first solar sail, informative publications like an award-winning magazine, and many other outreach efforts like this radio show.

Help make space exploration and inspiration happen. Here's how you can join us. You can learn more about the Planetary Society at our website, planetary.org slash radio, or by calling 1-800-9-WORLDS. Planetary Radio listeners who aren't yet members can join and receive a Planetary Radio t-shirt. Members receive the internationally acclaimed Planetary Report magazine. That's planetary.org slash radio. The Planetary Society, exploring new worlds.

Welcome back to Planetary Radio. I'm Matt Kaplan. Seeking a human spaceflight program worthy of a great nation. That's the ambitious title of the report just issued by the so-called Augustine Committee. We're talking with Planetary Society Executive Director Lou Friedman about this document, which calls for both more funding and a new approach to getting Americans beyond low Earth orbit. I want to come back to that phrase, flexible path, because that's the other thing other than needing billions more dollars that has made it into some of the major media. But they really haven't explained much of that.

Well, yeah, and I know that some of my friends, both in the Planetary Society and other organizations are disappointed it wasn't a Mars first, let's go to Mars kind of decision. I actually think it's much more positive about actually getting us to Mars. There's no sentiment politically. There's no will, and there's probably enormous technical barriers to saying, we're going to jump to Mars and a program right now. I don't think that would get very far in Congress. But by moving out, steadily building

up human spaceflight capability so that we can do Mars, that I think is a program that we can enlist the political system to support. The flexible path basically just says, build your rocket, build it capable enough to go beyond Earth orbit, get out of Earth orbit, into interplanetary space. Then whatever you learn in a one-month mission, make the next goal beyond that, maybe to L2 or to one of the gravitationally stable points that someday we'll use for space observations and space operation. Well, we will use it with the James Webb Telescope in 2014. Okay, well, that's not a great human space exploration objective, but it is a milestone. It does develop flight capability on the order of months for humans to go into interplanetary space.

Then go to an asteroid, maybe an easy one that's only three months away. Then maybe one that's six months away. Then maybe one that's a round trip of nine months, like a Mars mission in their one-way path. And these are enormous technical challenges. You have to build up closed-loop ecological life support systems. You have to cope with the interplanetary radiation environment. And you have to cope with the long-duration effects of weightlessness. So you build up those capabilities.

And as you build them up, you flexibly decide how quickly you can now commit to the landing system to test on the moon and then on Mars and how much you really have to do on the moon on the way to Mars. Because we don't have to go back to the moon to do over what we did in Apollo or to do Apollo on steroids like the current plan has. We can use the moon intelligently to do only what's necessary to go on to Mars. And leave low Earth orbit to the commercial sector? That was another important recommendation. I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of people don't understand

sometimes what I say about the commercial sector. But I think that was a great recommendation. I'm not sure if I had to bet my money today on how humans are going to get to Earth orbit for the next 10 years. I think the commercial sector will be minor. But that's my personal opinion, and I don't know everything. Some people think it'll be a lot faster, and they'll do a lot more of it. We have a backup. The Russians are able to take us up to Earth orbit.

We have a backup. The Russians are able to take us up to Earth orbit. And I don't think people care that much how we get up to do the operations that are interesting in Earth orbit and beyond. So I'm not concerned if we can use the Russians for a while and then bring in the commercial sector to take over more and stimulate a U.S. commercial launch market with capabilities not just for space exploration but for space development and for space science and Earth orbit, that's all great. And so I think the idea of encouraging the commercial rocket system to take us to Earth orbit is just great. If you want to say, am I going to bet on it in the near term? Probably not, but I sure want to stimulate it.

And I'd call their bluff if you want to put it that way. Let's offer them a contract right now to do the job, but only pay them when they deliver. The rest of the world is certainly not standing still. What should the U.S. role be in all this? Should we be leading humankind's voyage beyond our planet? Well, those of you who know me very well will understand this analogy and why I make it. This is World Series time, and on a baseball team, you have players that really try to be the best on the team. They're the stars. They want to be superstars.

At the same time, they want their team to do well. They are team players. They're trying to get—they don't want the other guys on the team to do badly. I think Earth is a team going out to interplanetary space. United States should be the best on the team. We should do everything we can, at least those of us who are Americans want to be the best. Those of us who are Asians, they should want to do the best. Those of us who are Chinese, they should do their best. We can work together and we can create a really positive future for humanity by going into space that way and bring out the best in people. And so I don't think it's, some may think that's a little bit too

Pollyannish as well, but sure there's going to be rivalries and competitiveness. There isn't a baseball team. And there are other areas where one player might go into business on one thing and not on another. But when they get out and do the team effort, they do that together. And so there'll be areas where China and the United States should compete, commercial markets, and hopefully not too much in the national security arena, but even there. But at the same time, they can explore the moon and Mars together. And I think we should help. I'm so surprised you didn't extend that metaphor directly to the New York Yankees and A-Rod. Well, I was trying to avoid exactly showing all my biases today.

But I do want to credit the former president of the Planetary Society, Neil deGrasse Tyson, for labeling this the Cheese Steak Cheese Cake Series. Well, by the time people hear this, we'll know whether it was the Phillies or the New York Yankees who reigned supreme this year in American baseball. Not necessarily. This show will be broadcast November 2nd, and the series will not be over then unless somebody sweeps it. I'm glad you said that. Thank you, Lou.

This has been great fun. Okay. Lou Friedman is the executive director of the Planetary Society. He joins us periodically to update us on things that he cares about and that the society is working on. And certainly we and lots of other people care about the just-released report of the so-called Augustine Commission. care about the just-released report of the so-called Augustine Commission. We'll be looking out across the solar system and have a new space trivia contest for you in just a couple of minutes here. That'll be when Bruce Betts arrives for this week's edition of What's Up

after we hear from Emily. Hi, I'm Emily Lakdawalla with questions and answers. A listener asked, How do they explain the hexagon near Saturn's North Pole? Saturn's North Polar Hexagon was discovered in Voyager images in 1980, and it's been observed ever since. So it's a long-lived, stable feature of Saturn's atmosphere akin to Jupiter's Great Red Spot.

From the side, it looks like a wavy boundary between a light band of clouds and a dark band of clouds located at 76 degrees north latitude. But if you compose a lot of images into a synthetic view looking down on Saturn's north pole, you'll notice that there are exactly six up and down waves, so that the band of clouds appears like a hexagon centered on the pole. Observations of Saturn in infrared wavelengths have shown that the hexagon is a deep feature too, extending down to pressures of several bars. While it may be deep, it's not mysterious. Scientists have developed computer simulations of Saturn's atmosphere that contain a jet of wind at that latitude.

With just a tiny bit of turbulence introduced into the simulation, the jet quickly develops a wavy motion. How long each wave is depends upon various characteristics of the atmosphere, density, pressure, and so on. But because Saturn is a globe, the waves meet themselves after journeying 360 degrees around the planet. Under these circumstances, the waves naturally organize themselves into a standing wave with an integer number of ups and downs. There's nothing special about the number six. If the jet were at a different latitude, Saturn might have wound up with a pentagon or a septagon. Cassini wasn't able to observe the hexagon in visible light until recently, because the North Pole was in winter darkness when Cassini arrived.

Now that spring has come to Saturn's north, we can look forward to terrific new images of the hexagon. Got a question about the universe? Send it to us at planetaryradio at planetary.org. And now here's Matt with more Planetary Radio. Time for What's Up on Planetary Radio. Bruce Batts is sitting across from me at Planetary Society headquarters. Seat's still warm probably. Lou was there just a couple of minutes ago. Ew.

Well, welcome back thanks good to be back tell us about the night sky well hey up in the night sky we've got in the evening sky jupiter looking bright and fabulous uh over there high in the south after sunset getting over in the west by later in the evening. Both Uranus and Neptune are up in the evening sky. I leave them out because you need binoculars or a telescope or really good eyes and a really dark side for Uranus. But basically binoculars, telescope, if you want to go look for them, find a finder chart on the web and go check them out in the evening sky, along with the much easier to check out jupiter and its galilean satellites which are all dancing and eclipsing each other and just basically having a party speaking of parties venus still bright east before dawn really bright

and look up above it i don't know 15 20 degrees above it is saturn these days looking yellowish and about 100 times dimmer than Venus, but still very easy to see. And that's our night sky. Jupiter was very close to the moon the other day. It was made for a pretty picture. They weren't nuzzling, as you like to say, but it was real pretty. They were. They were hanging out together. Just to be clear, they're not actually close to each other in three-dimensional space, but 2D visibility, they were quite close together. Let's go on to this week in space history. It is indeed Laika week. In 1957, the dog Laika became the first

living organism, other than those bacteria on Sputnik 1. Exactly. Into Earth orbit on Sputnik 2. it's a very big deal you know it's a big week for me it's like lost in space week but uh it's is like a week sad to hear how she actually ended but uh but still a real milestone indeed i'm gonna try to bring us up with the next segment okay random space fact slightly subdued but you haven't been feeling well. It's true. I feel subdued. Strelka and Belka. Friends of Laika's? I don't know if they knew each other or not, but a happy story. Strelka and Belka, who flew a couple missions later for organisms to be returned

to Earth safely. And they flew with a bunch of other smaller critters as well. They got to fly with another dog, go into orbit, and come back down and land. You know, I never heard of Strelka and Belka. Strelka meaning little arrow and Belka meaning squirrel. Which they were not, right? They were dogs. No, they were dogs. I think it was just the Soviets trying to confuse the rest of the world. What a Soviet triumph. They actually returned them to Earth successfully. They did, and they kept partying with dogs, their animal of favor. And fortunately, some of them even made it back.

Yeah, we went with chimps. Chimps and other smaller animals to begin with. But then, yes, there's the big animals. That's what we went with. That's right. There was that squirrel monkey. I don't want to leave out any primates. So, okay.

Let us move on. In the trivia contest, we asked you before, what was the first successful flyby by what spacecraft was the first one to successfully fly by Mars? How did we do? Well, and you asked this, of course, because when you asked it, Bruce Murray was our guest on the show. this, of course, because when you asked it, Bruce Murray was our guest on the show. And Bruce Murray was indeed a big part of this mission back in 1965. It was this time Jamie McAuliffe who gave us the right answer. Jamie from Marion, Illinois. And it was Mariner 4.

The first of the Mariners to party at Mars. Lindsay Dawson pointed out, because he included a nice photo, did you see that thing he sent us with some of the images and so on? It really does look like a really ornate ceiling fan. Well, you know, they had to do things quickly in those days, and so they grabbed the ceiling fan, threw some solar panels on it, and there it went. William Stewart, another listener, was saying, you know, how long can it be before somebody goes out there when we can really jet around and do this kind of stuff in space? And grab a couple, you know, and bring them back and sell them or give them to the Smithsonian, you know, because I guess it's in heliocentric orbit now.

Oh, yeah. It's out there waiting for us. It's nicely stable. All right. Well, anyway, we're going to send you, Jamie, congratulations, a Planetary Radio t-shirt. Hey, what are we going to give away this time? Oh, you know what? I'm so glad you asked.

That's what I'm here for. We got something special. We have a Cosmos 1 jacket, a smart-looking jacket from the Cosmos 1 mission, the first solar sail launch attempt by the Planetary Society, oh, those years ago. That's going to be a really cool gift, a nice thing for one of you to wear. Now, we only have extra large and medium, so keep that in mind as you answer this question. Can't get enough dogs. So Strelka and Belka.

Strelka, after coming back to Earth, gave birth to six puppies. The question is, what famous American was given one of those puppies? Oh, you know what? I think I have heard this one. What a great question. Why, thank you. Go to planetary.org slash radio. Find out how to enter and win your fabulous Cosmos One jacket windbreaker coolness. And the puppies were, you know, just normal pups, four legs, two ears, usual thing, right? Five eyes.

Okay. You have until the 9th of November to get us this latest response. The 9th of November, Monday, 2 p.m. Pacific time. All right, everybody, go out there, look up at the night sky, and think about sand. Thank you, and good night. I'm thinking about sand right now. I'm supposed to warm up, and it would be lovely to be on a beach this weekend. Thank you very much.

You're welcome. He's Bruce Betts, the Director of Projects for the Planetary Society, and he joins us every week here for What's Up. A reminder that our special guest next week will be Carl Sagan's widow and close collaborator, Ann Druyan. Ann will help me share some other big news that will be released on what would have been Carl's 75th birthday. Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California.

Keep looking up! Thank you.