Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - Planetary Society's Lou Friedman on NASA's New Plans

Episode Date: February 8, 2010

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NASA's Bold New Plan, this week on Planetary Radio. Hi everyone, welcome to Public Radio's travel show that takes you to the final frontier. I'm Matt Kaplan of the Planetary Society. We usually talk about space exploration on this show, not the dollars and politics that make it possible. Today is different. On Monday, February 1, NASA and the Obama administration proposed a major game change. We'll talk with Planetary Society Executive Director Lou Friedman about this new direction. with Planetary Society Executive Director Lou Friedman about this new direction.

Bill Nye's commentary is on the same topic. Bruce Betts will still be dropping by to tell us where to look for planets and more in the night sky, and he'll help me give away a Planetary Radio T-shirt. First up, though, is our regular conversation with Emily Lakdawalla about the latest and greatest news in the Planetary Society blog. Emily, I know you have some young company there, but glad to be talking with you again. And featured in the blog, this wonderful pair of images of Pluto.

Yeah, these are actually maps that were composed of very complicated computer analysis of nearly 400 images taken by Hubble's Advanced Camera for Surveys over 2002 and 2003. Why did it take so long for us to get these? Is it just because of all that computational difficulty? That's right. The individual images that Hubble took were only about four pixels across, so you really can't tell very much detail about what Pluto looks like in any individual image. So the way that they made these pictures is basically, he had a computer program. This is the researcher, Mark Buey, had a computer program that made a guess as to what the map should look like. Then it computed what the view, the four pixel across view would look like for each of those 385 pictures and compared the results to the actual

images. And then it had to improve the map a little bit each time. It tried every single guess at a map. It took five minutes to compute. And at the end, it took four years for 20 computers to come up with this map that they finally achieved of Pluto. Wow. Amazing work. Just as amazing is the comparison between these images or this map, as you've called it, and something that was done even years before that, which seemed to indicate, if they're accurate, that a lot goes on on the surface of Pluto. Absolutely. That was quite the shocking result. The new map is compared to one that was composed from 1994 data.

The 1994 data looks pretty uniformly splotchy, but the new map is much brighter in the northern hemisphere and much darker in the southern hemisphere. But the new map is much brighter in the northern hemisphere and much darker in the southern hemisphere. So there's been a lot of change on Pluto's surface just in that six short years or eight short years. Well, New Horizons is only about halfway along on its trip to Pluto. I guess this gives us even more to anticipate when it gets there. Also actually helps the New Horizons team plan where to shoot their photos once they do get there. Just one other thing to mention that people can find in the blog, and that is a couple of really amazing flyovers done by a colleague who we've talked to before on this program, Doug Ellison.

That's right. Doug's been taking some digital elevation models composed by the HiRISE team, and also one that he got a little help composing himself, and making these absolutely stunningly gorgeous color flyovers of various spots on Mars, including the Mars Pathfinder landing site. And that's one of my favorites, because you zoom in and out of the actual panorama from Pathfinder during the flyover. Well, they are beautiful, and we'll congratulate Doug. And Emily, thank you once again for joining us. Thank you, and Sanaya's happy to be here, too. Yeah, happy parenting.

Thanks. Emily is the Science and Technology Coordinator for the Planetary Society and a contributing editor to Sky and Telescope magazine. She joins us every week for these little comments on what's going on in planetary science. I'll be right back with Lou Friedman and an analysis of NASA's new budget after we hear commentary from Bill. Hey, hey, Bill Nye, the planetary guy here, vice president of the Planetary Society. And the big news in space exploration is the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, NASA's budget,

along with the flexible path, this idea from the Augustine Commission that looked into how to best spend resources on space exploration. The idea is that we will abandon the Constellation Program, this Apollo on steroids program, which, by the way, is based on the English system of measurement, for a more exciting new program, new rocket, new way to explore deep space, get out of low Earth orbit and build a deep space rocket. It's exciting. And we will use commercial spacecraft, commercial rockets, to explore low Earth orbit the way we've been doing the last 40 years. But instead, some entrepreneur will be in business providing that service to the United States and anybody else who wants to explore low Earth orbit.

It's a turning point. But the new exciting destinations like the asteroids, the Lagrange point, and Mars, those are still ahead of us. Let's go. I've got to fly. Bill Nye the Planetary Guy. Bill is right about the biggest space news last week. It came not from Mars or beyond, but from Washington, D.C. NASA Administrator Charles Bolden went to the National Press Club Auditorium to talk about the new budget and plans that had just been

proposed for his agency. I'd like to say how excited we are to have direction from our president to launch a new era of innovation and discovery. Reaching and living in space is complicated, it's dangerous, and it's full of unknowns. The technology we need to sustain our leadership as a space-faring nation is going to take our ingenuity. But the President has now given us resources, including $6 billion of new funds over the next five years for significantly increased technology research

and development, a long-term plan to think big, to grow, to imagine, and to move us vigorously toward the dreams for tomorrow. Tough budget choices in the past have led to decades of underinvestment in space technology development. We have experienced cuts to other NASA, critical NASA programs, including earth science, Earth observation, aeronautics, robotic space exploration, science, education, and more. And we would have cut short the operational life of the International Space Station at the height of its promised potential. We believe that the technology shortfall we face is so fundamental that incremental change or tinkering on the margins will not be sufficient to address current or future needs. Rather, a fundamental re-baselining of our nation's exploration efforts is needed.

We must invest in fundamentally new innovations for space technology and new ways of doing business if we are to develop a space exploration and development program that is truly sustainable over the long term. This plan gives us a roadmap to even more historic achievements as it spurs innovation, employs Americans in exciting jobs, and engages people around the world. It pledges us to a renewed commitment to invention and development and the creative and entrepreneurial spirit that is at the core of our country's character. NASA Administrator Charles Bolden. You heard Bill Nye mention the so-called Augustine Commission.

Its actual name was the Committee to Review United States Human Spaceflight Plans. name was the Committee to Review United States Human Spaceflight Plans. Among other conclusions, the committee found that development of the so-called Constellation Program, including the Ares I and V rockets and the Orion space capsule, was not going well. Even inside NASA, some engineers felt there was a better way to go. Criticism came from outside the agency, too. there was a better way to go. Criticism came from outside the agency, too. Lou Friedman is the founding executive director of the Planetary Society. He's an old hand at testifying before congressional and other committees. I sat down with Lou a few days after the NASA budget proposal was revealed. Lou, I have to tell you, I am very excited about this, but just how big is this proposed change in American space policy? Well, I hope it's big. We have great hopes for it. I am predicting that humans,

astronauts, will get beyond the moon and maybe even on the surface of the moon, as some want, more quickly as a result of this policy than they were going to in constellation. You know, Matt, we were great supporters of the Vision for Space Exploration five years ago, but it didn't work out right. And the program was building a rocket that wasn't going anywhere because it was going up to orbit after the space station had been taken out of use. And it wasn't getting back to the moon anywhere near the time period that they intended. They had hoped for 2020, and the Independent Augustine Commission looked at it and said

it's more like 2028. I think this new policy is going to be developing things that will get us out into interplanetary space much quicker and has a lot more hope because it's bringing new resources into the program. So I'm hopeful this is a big announcement, but who knows? This could go badly. This could turn out to be bollocksed up in bureaucracy or in Congress. This could be setting out new ideas that just won't work.

We don't know until we actually get into it. But I think the opportunities here are great, and I hope the country sees us on it. It's certainly not without controversy either. I mean, there are some people who do not want to let Constellation die. Well, Constellation, first of all, all the people on the program certainly were putting their hearts into it and putting their minds into it and worked very hard. And what they were doing, given what they got, was just great. The trouble is they didn't get what they were supposed to. The funding proposed by the administrations for the last five years didn't live up to the

expectations at all. And the goal of going back to the moon to take steps further out into the solar system was completely lost. They ended up focusing on a lunar base that didn't excite the public. It began to be described as a program of Apollo on steroids. Even NASA used that term. And so it was like, to the public, it was doing it over again, which certainly didn't resonate. I think that that had to be recast. Unfortunately for the people in the

program, they will be part of the new program. There'll be new opportunities. More money is actually going to NASA in this budget proposal. So there are going to be more people involved. Where they will work, will they work for this industry or that industry? Will they work for NASA? Will they work in the private sector? I don't know. This aerospace sector is huge. NASA is only one part of it. But I'm quite hopeful that everybody who is creative and can be part of this program will be part of it. What are the elements of this new plan that you're most excited about?

Well, I think the new things are, first of all, there's more money to NASA. Secondly, there's more resources. They're bringing in the commercial industry and telling them, okay, you say you can build these things? Here's some money. Prove it. And they're saying, furthermore, we guarantee you that we will buy it from you if you can do it safely. If you prove to us you have a safe vehicle, we'll use your rocket. Well, that's pretty exciting.

The next thing I'm very excited about is they're actually putting significant money into the heavy lift launch vehicle. The only way we can get to deep space is to build a heavy lift launch vehicle. The Constellation Program talked about one, but didn't put any money into it. Now they're putting $3.1 billion into startup on that, hoping to develop the technologies that will move us more quickly out beyond the moon. So I think that's an important step. It's a commitment to exploration, and it's a commitment to exploration and science working together. So it should, when they start laying out the details of the plan, resonate much more with the public, because it'll provide a much

more purposeful human space program. Now, all of these are hopes. Who knows what will happen when, as I say, when the budget is considered by Congress, when the programs are implemented, there are all opportunities for things to go wrong. But I think these new elements, the new money, the new partners, the engagement of international partners around the world from the get-go. It's interesting that already in two days, Russia and Europe have both said, this is good. We didn't really want to go back to the moon in the first place. And they, of course, haven't been with astronauts.

So I think there's a lot more forward-looking interest in this, and we'll have to see how it works out. Planetary Society Executive Director Lou Friedman will have more to say about new plans for NASA when Planetary Radio continues. I'm Robert Picardo. I traveled across the galaxy as the doctor in Star Trek Voyager. Then I joined the Planetary Society to become part of the real adventure of space exploration.

The Society fights for missions that unveil the secrets of the solar system. It searches for other intelligences in the universe, and it built the first solar sail. It also shares the wonder through this radio show, its website, and other exciting projects that reach around the globe. through this radio show, its website, and other exciting projects that reach around the globe. I'm proud to be part of this greatest of all voyages, and I hope you'll consider joining us. You can learn more about the Planetary Society at our website, planetary.org slash radio, or by calling 1-800-9-WORLDS. Planetary Radio listeners who aren't yet members can join and receive a Planetary Radio t-shirt. Our nearly 100,000 members receive the internationally acclaimed Planetary Report magazine.

That's planetary.org slash radio. The Planetary Society, exploring new worlds. Welcome back to Planetary Radio. I'm Matt Kaplan. We're talking about the new NASA budget proposal put forward by the Obama administration last week. It cancels the Constellation program begun under the Bush administration, yet increases overall funding for the space agency. It also redirects NASA's effort that aimed at returning humans to the moon by 2020. Planetary Society Executive Director Lou Friedman

is generally pleased with the new objectives laid out in the plan. They include an increased focus on Mars, though some have criticized the new plan because it does not set a target date for putting the first people on the red planet. It is short on specifics for other human missions as well. We have a strange situation. You know, on specifics for other human missions as well. We have a strange situation. You know, Mars is the destination. Everybody knows that. We're not going to send humans to Venus or Jupiter or to other exotic places. Mars is the only accessible world that

has atmosphere and water. So once we get beyond the moon, Mars is the destination. But somehow politically, we cannot quite use the word Mars now. It's almost like the M word, because you know that Congress, and maybe rightfully so, would criticize the idea that we're not ready to do a manned Mars program yet. We can't spend that kind of money. So what this plan does is sort of take us on that path, and the Augustine Committee called it the flexible path, and the Planetary Society a year ago called it the roadmap. It takes us on the path or the roadmap that will get there, building the necessary steps, taking the intermediate milestones that we have to do, and then at the right point, we'll be able to introduce that exciting destination that will involve the public. So there is a bit of a dichotomy. We can't quite get the public excited yet

because the political will to get to that destination isn't there. But if we can start producing those interim milestones, we can get astronauts on an asteroid maybe by 2020, that's going to be pretty exciting. And it's going to start bringing public a whole bunch of new things that they never imagined can be done out in space. How about the Earth-facing portions of this plan? I was just talking to a friend yesterday who was thrilled because the bringing back or the Mark II of the orbiting carbon observatory that was lost, it was specifically mentioned in the plan.

Well, the budget is very good to science in general. The Mars program is fully funded. The James Webb Space Telescope is fully funded. If I want to complain about something, I will say that the outer planets exploration still did not get that new start for the Europa mission that we are seeking. And we're going to be pushing on that one. But in general, this has been very good to science and in particular for Earth science. You mentioned the orbiting carbon observatory. Other climate monitoring satellites are going to

be up there. And no matter what anyone thinks, the idea of getting knowledge about what's going on on Earth is so important and so valuable and frankly exciting. I mean, those pictures of Earth are always exciting. Observing the sea state changes that are going on, observing the changes to the polar regions from orbit, the monitoring of the carbon sinks and sources on Earth. These are incredibly important things, but they're also kind of interesting. That's why Google Earth is so interesting. So I think that this is a great step forward. It's kind of like we lost a decade while people fussed about the importance of Earth

observations. That's so ridiculous. How could people fuss about the importance of Earth science and Earth observations? It's beyond me. What is going to be the ongoing role of the Planetary Society? I mean, it's already been clear that this has been something that the society has paid a lot of attention to. Well, as always, Matt, we'll be advocates. We're advocates for human and robotic space exploration.

We're advocates for international cooperation, the engagement of people everywhere. We'll be trying to inspire the public. At the same point, we'll be watchdogs. If things start to go differently than we hope they will, as they did in Constellation, we will become critics, and we'll become, because we're independent, and that's something that a citizens group has to be. So I'm, my job, I feel sometimes I describe my job as a paid optimist,

that I'm supposed to be optimistic because we're trying to make things happen. And that's what optimists do. They try to take what you got and make things happen. Do I wish it could be different? Do I wish the NASA budget was $20 billion instead of $19 billion? Of course I do. Do I wish it was $25 billion? Of course I do. But, you know, we are realists.

And we take what we get and we try to make the program work. And we're going to be optimists. We're going to try to make the program work. And we're going to be optimists. We're going to try to support the new plan. We're going to try to have it point outward, get astronauts doing things they've never done in space before, flying further, longer. We're going to try to have international milestones that engage the public. And so we'll be there in NASA's face and I might say the European Space Agency's face, and the Russian Space Agency's face, and if we're successful with some of the initiatives we're doing,

China and Japan and India as well, to say let's synergistically each other, supporting each other in ways that we can. Go back to the moon, sure. Go on to asteroids and to Mars, sure. But just keep up the continued exploration. You know, exploration is adventure and discovery. And I think those are two things that we will try to convey. Exciting times, Lou. It's always a pleasure. Thanks for coming back on the radio show, and we'll talk to you again sometime soon. Good. Thank you, Matt. Lou Friedman is the founding executive director of the Planetary Society in its 30th year of operation, and he joins us

periodically here on Planetary Radio. You know who joins us weekly? That's Bruce Betts. He'll be here in just a couple of moments with this week's edition of What's Up. And here he is, Bruce Betts, the director of projects for the Planetary Society, back once again for another edition of What's Up. Welcome back. Tell us about the night sky, and then we'll get to other stuff like a trivia contest and the planet with the the name that makes people twitter all right let's start with the uh the good old night sky and start with mars because uh it's mars and it's near opposition still it's still very bright in

the eastern sky in the early evening you can check it out and then rotate your head to the right and you'll see sirius the brightest star in the sky. Mars gradually dimming now, but still nearly as bright as Sirius and looking reddish, whereas Sirius is very bluish. Saturn coming up a little bit later in the evening. It's much dimmer and yellowish. Mars, I think, interesting. It's not that far from Castor and Pollux, the Gemini twins. It will nicely line up with them in about a month. And then catastrophes will strike everyone. I told you, stay away from that astrology page. Astronomer, not astrologer.

Yeah, I know. I get it all the time. That's why I had to say that in my life. Yes, you're an astrologer. You do that show about astrology. Yes, I do. And I did do a little bit when I at least studied some cosmetology. Anywho, what happened this week in space history?

1971, Apollo 14 returned from the moon. The last Skylab mission in 1974 finished up. Galileo was one of the first certainly weird go to the inner solar system so you can get to the outer solar system. Twenty years ago this week, it went to Venus to get a gravity assist to head to Jupiter. We also had NIR performing the very bizarre feat for an orbiter of landing successfully on the asteroid Eros. It wasn't planned, right? It was just kind of, they saw the opportunity.

Well, I mean, they chose to, but no, it was an orbiter mission. And towards the end of its lifetime, it's like, hey, I got an idea. This will never work. It just kind of bumped up there. Yeah, which was very beneficial, especially for the fields instruments. Very cool. Being up close and personal. Yeah.

On to... The Fields instruments. Very cool. The light being up close and personal. Yeah. On to... When you were growing up, were there air raid sirens nearby that would go off once a month? Totally. Because they were in my town.

In middle school, we actually had it in the yard. Oh, that is cool. It just stopped class. We had one at the edge of the playground in my town. In middle school, we actually had it in the yard. Oh, that is cool. Just stopped class. We had one at the edge of the playground in elementary school. But good old Eshelman Avenue. Our love, we plight to thee. Okay. Nice shout out.

All of them are listening. And they're most famous alum. So anyway, random space fact. Mars has approximately half the radius of Earth. But wait, don't order yet. It's a little less dense than Earth. So it has about 15% of the Earth's volume, but about 11% over the Earth's mass. 11%.

It's only like a tenth the mass of Earth. Easy to lose track of. Yeah. Well, no, it wouldn't actually float. It's not that under-dense. It's just less dense. All right, let us go on to the trivia contest yeah one of those that i did the dangerous thing just pulled out of my head thought oh this will

be an easy one for people for a change what's the orbital period of uranus forgetting about the silly tropical year sidereal year and not really knowing that uranus was particularly susceptible to such things would you would you like the rund or do you want to use our clever listeners? The bottom line is it's exactly 84 years in any system. Exactly. I'm defining it that way. Darn it. Now, how did we do?

I know how we did. There were a lot of confused answers. We'll take any of them that are sort of in the 84-year realm. Some are right for the sidereal year, some for the tropical year. Yeah, you're right. And they all pretty much round off to 84 if you go to the nearest year, Earth year, that is. We got a tremendous response, biggest response ever to the contest. Nothing says contest entry like Uranus.

I guess so. Nothing says contest entry like Uranus. I guess so. This was also the last chance to win Traveler's Guide to Mars, the signed copy, signed by William Hartman, who both illustrated and wrote it. Our winner, Joseph Perosi. Joseph Perosi of Audubon, New Jersey. And Joseph, congratulations. You are the winner of the book. He indeed did say 84.01 earth years that was the most

common answer that we got so we got that right but uh you know my italian wife would say that you pronounce your name incorrectly joseph but we won't quibble we'll just send you a book now we did get a lot of other great entries this is really cool we got a new unit a unit we've never seen before you ready for this? This is from Matt Richardson. It's 84 Earth years or 127,006 Beethovens. That's enough time to listen to all of Beethoven's symphonies 127,006 times. That could be too much. Mark Smith, a regular listener to the show, he wanted to point out that in the time since it was discovered,

219 years, it hasn't even completed three more orbits. That is weird. Isn't that good? That's part of why I threw it out, just because you lose track. Those planets out there, really long years, however you define them. I should have saved that for you as a random space fact, but I've done that one in now. Maybe everybody will forget in a year or so. Okay.

One more here. This is from Kenneth Frank, who pointed out he got into, you know, the various pronunciations of Uranus. And we pronounce it correctly, of course. But he also says that John Dobson, the originator, of course, of the Dobsonian telescope, he always said Uranus, Uranus. As in Uranus, may it please the court? All right. So we better rush right on to yet another trivia contest. All right.

This time, I think I've got one with one finite answer. You'll find out when our listeners let me know. Otherwise, Mariner 9, first spacecraft to orbit another planet, Mars in this case. How many solar panels did Mariner 9 have? If you can picture it, you probably already know the answer.

Go to planetary.org slash radio, find out how to enter. And if you can come up with a way to funk Bruce on this, then you'll get extra points. You'll also get, the winner that is, will get a Planetary Radio t-shirt.

And winning is not dependent upon funking Bruce. No, it certainly is not. Just to be clear. Alright, you've got until the 15th of February, 2010, to get us this entry. That would be at 2 p.m. Pacific time. We're done. All right, everybody, go out there, look up at the night sky, and think of the best lyrics

you can put, too. Da-da-da-da. Thank you, and good night. He is Bruce Betts. He joins us every week. Here for What's Up. Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California, and is made possible in part by a grant from the Kenneth T. and Eileen L. Norris Foundation. Keep looking up. Thank you.