Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - The Royal Astronomical Society at 200

Episode Date: April 22, 2020

“The object of THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY shall be the encouragement and promotion of Astronomy, Solar-System Sciences, Geophysics and closely related branches of science.” That’s what you��ll find on the website of the RAS. Its mission has changed little in the two centuries since it was founded by some of Britain’s leading scientific minds. Don’t miss the UK Poet Laureate’s poem in honor of the RAS at the end of this week’s episode.  We also offer a tribute to the late Margaret Burbidge, one of the 20th century’s greatest astronomers. Learn and explore more at https://www.planetary.org/multimedia/planetary-radio/show/2020/0422-2020-ras-200th-margaret-burbidge.htmlSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Royal Astronomical Society turns 200 this week on Planetary Radio. Welcome. I'm Matt Kaplan of the Planetary Society with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. Hoping you and yours are well. We're off to London for a virtual visit with two leaders of the oldest continuously operated astronomy organization on our planet. And in moments, we'll enjoy a special tribute to a longtime member of the RAS, the late Margaret Burbage. There's a sweet little RAS-related Easter egg at the tail end of this week's show. Before we get to the downlink headlines, I've got a special invitation to share. I hope you'll join us on Thursday, April 30th at 1 p.m. Pacific, 4 p.m.

Eastern, and 20-hundred hours UTC for the very first What's Up Live. Bruce Betts and I will tell you more during this week's regular What's Up segment, or you can check out planetary.org slash live. If you heard my conversation last week with NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine, you were among the first to learn of a new Earth-sized planet in its star's habitable zone. More of this story is at planetary.org slash downlink, as is our story about the Mars helicopter that has now been attached to the belly of the Perseverance rover. We've covered developments of this little flying machine here on the show. NASA astronauts Andrew Morgan and Jessica Meyer, as well as Russia's Oleg Skripachka,

have returned to Terra Firma from the International Space Station. The next two ISS visitors are likely to be the first astronauts to catch a ride on a SpaceX Crew Dragon. That historic launch has been tentatively set for May 27th, and you can bet Planetary Radio and the Planetary Society will provide special coverage. Eleanor Margaret Burbage passed away on April 5th at the age of 100. You're not alone if she is mostly unfamiliar to you. That's a shame because her name should be praised along with the other greatest astronomers of the 20th century. Brian Keating was lucky enough to work for and with her. Brian is Chancellor's Professor of Physics at the University of California, San Diego, where he is part of CAST, the Center for Astronomy and Space Studies.

Brian, thank you very much for joining me for this short tribute to someone who you worked very closely with and apparently had tremendous respect for, Margaret Burbage. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Matt. It's always a pleasure to get together with you, either in person or through the ether. I totally agree. And we will be talking from this week's show page at planetary.org slash radio, an elegy for a British lioness, Margaret Burbage, 1919 to 2020, 2020. You know, I'd heard of her, but I had no idea what a heroic figure she was until I read

your essay. So thank you for that as well. Yeah, it's bittersweet for me because she meant so much to not only me, but many, many astronomers over probably four or five generations of PhD theses and contributions to science. And she was really kind of an unsung hero for various reasons that I'm sure we can discuss. But she was a hero to me and to many of us. In a video, which we'll also link to, it was for her 100th birthday at UCSD. You called her perhaps the foremost astronomer

of the 20th century. Do you stand by that and why? She was certainly in the same league as the other Titanic astronomers, whether it be Lyman Spitzer or Edwin Hubble, Envira Rubin. And she really had to face challenges that very few other astronomers, especially her male colleagues, had to face, which is this invidious discrimination that took place against women, basically throughout the history of astronomy, even some say up until this day although thankfully things are getting better but margaret purbidge was a master at the telescope and she was uh she had a facility with not only the instrumental properties you know sitting sitting on top of telescope it was not uncommon in astronomy of her of her time uh you would actually go to the telescope not have cD images teleported to you. So she actually would be riding on telescopes throughout the night, tracking these infinitesimally dim

stars or quasi-stellar objects. And she learned about the properties of the most important, some say the most important objects in the universe itself. Of course, I'm biased. I study the origin of the universe. I think that's pretty important. But she studied the origin of these compact objects, stars, black holes, quasars, and what powered them and what gave them the phenomenal energy output that they employ to really light up the universe at an early age and understand how that took place, as well as understanding through her data and hers alone. That's what's so important to realize. She worked with other Titans of astrophysics, but she was the only true observer in the quartet of famous astronomers and astrophysicists that she worked

with that could actually provide the data that would confirm how the stars in our galaxy and other galaxies produce the stuff of life itself and the stuff of planets, the cores of rocky planets such as the Earth. It would not have been possible without her. Star stuff, of course, as our founder Carl Sagan called it. And you must be referring to this theory, very, very famous across astronomy and astrophysics. You refer to it in the article. Is it BBFH or B squared FH? Yeah, it's either way. But what's important to realize is that almost no papers are known exclusively by the initials, the last name initials of their authors. And this paper is almost unique in that it is almost universally referred to for the last 75 years or so as BBFH or B squared FH.

And those are for the initials of the authors. Margaret was the first author. So it's Burbage, Burbage, Fowler, and Hoyle. And Willie Fowler was a Nobel laureate in Caltech. And that Nobel Prize came sort of courtesy of the astronomical data that Margaret provided, in that she really provided the data that astronomers need. As I say, in the medium piece, you can't really compete with my friends in the biology department. For all I know, they take a fruit fly, they heat it up a little bit, they expose it to some microwaves. I don't know what they do in biology. I think the dean should investigate, actually. But they do stuff with experiments. They actually can

do a controlled experiment where you have a variable and a control, and you keep one in quarantine, and you investigate what happens. But Margaret realized you can't do that with the stars in our galaxy. You can't add more neutrons to one, take away a couple of neutrinos over there. But instead, she realized that if she collected a large enough data set, she could use that as essentially a set of guinea pigs in a laboratory to really revolutionize how these stars produce the metals and the heavy elements that were not created in the Big Bang. And that was what was so crucial about her intellect. She was willing to take intellectual voyages to attain vantage points, even when it would contradict with the theories that she and her husband, and in fact, Fred Hoyle, it's not known about Willie Fowler really,

but they didn't accept the Big Bang. And what was so interesting is that this work sort of makes oblique reference to the Big Bang. In fact, Fred Hoyle coined the term Big Bang derisively to refer to this fanciful theory of the origin of the universe from basically nothing, which he called the Big Bang. Allegedly, that's a pejorative in British English for something I won't say, but your listeners can look it up if they're over age 21. They could probably get. But Jeff went to his grave not believing in the Big Bang origin of the universe, and that this paper really took over from where the Big Bang theory leaves off. And it would not have been possible without Margaret. Margaret provided these data with a sine qua non that enabled this paper to take hold in physics. And arguably to some, you know, was the, one of the key underpinnings for Willie Fowler's Nobel prize. And of course, uh, now the rules prohibit Margaret from winning a Nobel prize because they don't allow posthumous prizes much to the chagrin of many of us in the

community. But Margaret's work was truly foundational for the understanding that the real matter that matters in our body, the oxygen, you know, oxygen makes up by, you know, sort of mass or number density, the one of the dominant contributions to the elements in the human body, for example, and how those got produced and how heavier elements like iron got produced. Those were really understood for the first time by Margaret and her colleagues. And you mentioned iron, of course, the basis of the hemoglobin and in the blood that courses through all of us. You'll forgive me, I hope, for one more reference to competing theories of the origin of the universe. the origin of the universe. But in addition to Fred Hoyle's being a fan of the steady state in that area, you could refer to the steady state of discrimination that she faced. I'm so intrigued

by the fact that she was at Mount Wilson at the time that Hubble was, an interesting character in himself, terrific astronomer, of course, like her. But it's his chair that you can still see up there on the top of Mount Wilson at the 100-inch telescope. Could you just mention some of the challenges that she faced there? And then maybe we'll mention one or two others. Yeah, well, it was so interesting. Imagine having the skills to really be in this pantheon of astronomical royalty and then being denied access to the very tools which you are uniquely capable of using, merely because you lack a Y chromosome. And it was just, it's really, you know, a shame. And you wonder, as I was writing my book and thinking about Margaret,

and Margaret plays a very important role in the book, as does Vera Rubin and Maria Mayer and other people that have this wonderful connection to nuclear astrophysics and the matter in the universe that you can see, but also the dark matter that you can't see. Yes, it's really quite a shame. And you think about all the minds that astronomy might have lost were it not for changes that we're hopefully making nowadays. But I think back to perhaps other groups that have been shut out of accolades and awards and the attribution that all scientists deserve and sadly don't all get. But back in the 50s, when Margaret was first taking the data that would then go into this paper, the BBFH paper, she was denied access to use Matt Wilson, which was perhaps the most powerful telescope on the face of the Earth at that time. This telescope could only be used by men because there were two pretexts given by the operators of Mount Wilson.

One was that male technicians, those that drove the telescope around and pointed it to different coordinates on the sky as commanded by the astronomers, would not take commands from a woman. That was their claim, if you can believe that. But an enduring, a more enduring and perhaps easier for them to justify in their cognitive dissonance later on was that, oh, there's no women's rooms on the summit of Mount Wilson. So therefore you can't use a male bathroom, right? I mean, that's impossible. So they shut her out of using it. But in kind of a brilliant act of civil disobedience, she was nothing if not civil. I mean, I never saw her lose her temper in the 14 years that I knew her, 16 years that I knew her. charm, wit, and grace, which is quite opposite to her husband, which is they made a wonderful and contrast study in contrast. But Margaret then decided that she would pose as her theoretician husband, graduate student, not wife, that was forbidden to, to have married couples up there for, you know, heaven forfend, something might become of it. But Margaret poses his graduate student or assistant, and he he a person who had never used a

telescope was allowed to bark orders at these uh lowly technicians on the summit of mount wilson while idly by you know she was kind of the the the woman behind the curtain telling him in his ear yeah yeah it's really just a wonderful uh kind of story that would later have an echo with vera rubin who was also forbidden to use the same observatory. And instead of opposing, her husband was not an astronomer, even a theorist, so he could not be part of the ruse. Instead, she went and cut out a little silhouette of a woman and taped it on the men's room door, Vera Rubin did, and said, there, now you've got a woman's room. I've been up there and I was in the area that they call the monastery to this day. But thank goodness things have liberalized a little bit at Mount Wilson and elsewhere.

You've got to talk about one other example that you mentioned. She became director of the Royal Greenwich Observatory, one of my favorite science shrines on this planet. But she was denied another title that usually goes with that. That's right. Yeah. So throughout history for centuries, astronomers who held the position of the director of the Royal Greenwich Observatory, this is Greenwich, England. This is the very location, the meridian through which establishes the East and Western hemispheres

and universal time, et cetera. And that person had throughout history, and even to this day, also concurrently held the title of Astronomer Royal. And I joke that Martin Rees once told me that his job is most often mistaken as Astronomer Royal as reading the Queen or horoscope, but he doesn't really do that. Instead, it's sort of an honorific, but Margaret was denied that because the holder of the title of Astronomer Royal was Martin Ryle, Sir Martin Ryle, who had won the Nobel Prize in 1974, in part for a discovery made by another woman, this one, Jocelyn Bell Burnell, the discovery of pulsars. So he was involved with the discovery of that and

radio telescopes. It's so ironic that they denied her this position. And then thankfully, in some sense, you know, just speaking purely venally, as I want to do for myself, that was it. She couldn't take it. And she moved to America with Jeff Burbage, her husband, and they eventually ended up here in San Diego in the 70s, and later on went to become the first director of the Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences, where we are building things like the BICEP Observatory, or we built the BICEP Observatory components, and we are building parts of the Simons Observatory. So it's quite wonderful for me that she happened to move away from jolly old England. But I'm sure it was hard for her.

What's interesting about Margaret is that she wouldn't see discrimination per se. She wouldn't allow it to be used either to benefit her or to harm her. So she just would power through things like this, eventually going on to be the first female astronomer in the US National Academy of Sciences, something her husband never achieved, even though he was a titanic contributor to astrophysics in the previous century. At the same time, she wouldn't accept awards that were only allowed to be given to women. She famously would turn them down saying it's time to end discrimination in favor of women as well. So she was an intellectually honest person to an extent that's really so refreshing to

just know that such people exist. And she was a true maverick intellect that would go wherever the data would compel her to go. You got to say something about your relationship with her. You've already said a little bit, but say more and about how you came to know her because she was at UCSD. It was a different time. We're talking now in 2020. It's very difficult to become a professor nowadays, extremely difficult to become a professor. It wasn't easy when I first was offered the job back in 2003, but it's gotten extremely difficult and all the more so in this time of COVID, which has really canceled faculty searches and it's gotten extremely difficult and all the more so in this time of COVID, which has really canceled faculty searches.

And it's devastated academia, Matt. It's quite horrific beyond, of course, all the tragic injuries and loss of life, which, of course, are paramount. But anyway, back then, it was a little easier than it is now. And I had multiple opportunities for jobs back as I left being a postdoc at Caltech, where Margaret had been and where Willie Fowler had been, and came to consider two different offers. And the fact that Margaret Burbage was the founder of the Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences here, and the fact that she was really quite active, thriving. I mean, this was in her late 80s.

And that she could still be counted on to show up to every seminar and have a good word and a positive outlook and really compliment her husband in a really unique way. He would be a terror for one of the parts of my book that I ended up leaving out, because I love Jeff too, but he was very irascible. He hated this notion that people would have sloppy thinking, no matter what it was. But one time I remember a young person came and gave a seminar about cosmology and happened to utter those two words that were so detestable to Jeff. And he would just harumph, you know,

in his jolly British way, big bang, really. But then I remember her when she would see technology, and this is so cool about her, because she was involved with technology that eventually made its way into the Hubble and other telescopes as well. She wasn't just a pure glass telescope observer. She would say things like when we would show her our bolometers or detections, that's so cool. And it was just like a major day. I'm blessed to have Jeff's old office at the center. And I come across plates that Margaret had taken from these telescopes that she had rode astroad, you know, ridden upon decades earlier. It's like finding a little piece of Babylonian cuneiform or something.

I can't tell you how much it means when you actually find this relic from a bygone era taken by one of your heroes. So it's just, it's just a treat. I miss her terribly. And, and we were doing a lot here in San Diego at UC San Diego to promote her legacy. We have a visiting professorship, which is named after her called the Margaret Burbage visiting professorship.

Currently it's held by a friend of mine, Elena April, who is an experimentalist. Who's looking to find actual signatures of dark matter here in earthbound detectors. It's so amazing that the woman who taught Vera Rubin how to use spectroscopy to measure the existence of dark matter, confirm the existence of dark matter, that woman has a professorship currently held by a woman who's actively trying to detect dark matter at this very time. It's just such a treat the way life works. One might say cosmic justice.

Thank you, Brian. You know, I am so sorry now that I never got to speak to her myself, but this may be the next best thing. Thank you for this tribute. Again, a lot of this is taken, or at least my inspiration to talk to Brian about this is from his piece in media at medium.com, an elegy for a British lioness, Margaret Burbage, whom he worked with for many

years at UC San Diego. And Brian, we will talk again, hopefully before too long about that wonderful work that you have underway right now. Thanks, Matt. I can't wait until we're together and may it be under good circumstances. And thank you so much for all your time, Matt. I can't wait until we're together and may it be under good circumstances. And thank you so much for all your time, Matt. Yes, hopefully face to face. Hopefully we'll be allowed to do that once again. Brian Keating is Chancellor's Professor of Physics at the University of California, San Diego, author of Losing the Nobel Prize, a great far-ranging story that is about much more than losing the Nobel Prize. story that is about much more than losing the Nobel Prize. He also hosts a little competition, a great podcast called Into the Impossible for the Arthur C. Clarke Center for Imagination, which has been very helpful to me in helping to arrange conversations, several that some of you may have heard here on Planetary Radio. In just a moment, right after a quick break, we will talk to a couple of leaders of the Royal Astronomical Society,

which is celebrating its 200th anniversary, and Margaret Burbage was a longtime member of the society. Planetary Radio is brought to you this week by Athletic Greens, the all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. Even with a balanced diet, it can be difficult to cover all of your nutritional bases. That's where Athletic Greens will help. Their daily drink is like nutritional insurance for your body that's delivered straight to your door. I have to admit, I wondered how that small packet or scoop of powder could pack in 75 vitamins,

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your energy levels, support your immune system, or address gut health, now's the perfect time to try Athletic Greens for yourself. Simply visit athleticgreens.com slash planetary to claim my special offer of 20 free daily travel packs with your first purchase. A $79 added value. Again, that's athleticgreens.com slash planetary. The Royal Astronomical Society is celebrating its bicentennial all of this year. Though some of its events have been curtailed by the pandemic, the Society has not backed away from its long and vital role in UK science,

really the study of astronomy, geophysics, and planetary science throughout the world. I'd have much preferred to visit the RAS at its London headquarters, but my recent virtual visit was lovely. The Society's Deputy Executive Director is astronomer, science educator, and member of the International Astronomical Union, Dr. Robert Massey. His colleague, Dr. Sean Prosser, is the RAS librarian and archivist. Robert Massey, Sean Prosser, thanks very much for joining us on Planetary Radio, and congratulations on this very auspicious 200th anniversary of the Royal Astronomical Society. Thank you. It's a pleasure.

I also want to congratulate you. I saw on your website, which I recommend highly, and we will put a link on this week's show page to the RAS, that the Royal Mail just last month announced Visions of the Universe, a set of eight posted stamps marking this 200th anniversary of the Society's foundation. Congratulations on that as well. Yeah, we're very happy with them. The nice thing about the stamps, which for me, I was amazed. I thought this is such a 20th century thing and there'll be some sort of very focused stamp collectors who are fascinated by them.

But to my surprise surprise they're apparently selling really really well and given the number of letters we send these days which is obviously much reduced that surprised me but yeah people are going out buying them talking about well I should send a letter just so I can use one of these stamps because I suppose there are so few sets that have astronomical images on them that if you're at all interested in space and astronomy and planets and so on that it's a really fascinating thing to have and it's such a unique gift too. Yeah really beautiful we had to stay quiet about them for so long it's wonderful to actually see them remain now you know it's entirely the Royal Mail's subject they they decided to go with our

anniversary and they commissioned the designers who did a fantastic job. Take us back to 1820 and the very beginnings, the origin of the Royal Astronomical Society. Robert, how did things get underway? Well, this is definitely one for Sean to comment on too, but as befits societies and organizations of the time, this one was founded in a pub. And if you've ever been to the UK, then you'll know that pubs are pretty much a central part of our culture perhaps more than most places in the world uh the freemasons uh tavern in uh in what's now lincoln's infields that part of the world where you have all these inns of court the uh barristers are registered and so on and sadly the pub no longer exists but the story is of 14 gentlemen because in those days it would have been just gentlemen sitting down to dinner to agree the foundation of the Astronomical Society of London which later on

acquired a royal charter and became the RAS and it stemmed from a desire I think to move out of the auspices of the Royal Society which until around that time was basically doing all the kind of scientific meetings and so on in the UK obviously obviously in a much, much smaller area of society than we have today. But it is also the oldest astronomical society in the world that's been in continuous existence, almost a full century older, I think, than the AAS. So that's our claim to fame on that. Sian? Yes, in doing the fact checking for this, we did find out that there was an astronomical society set up in Glasgow a few years before,

but it did not continue as long. So yes, it is the longest-running Astronomical Society in the world. Robert, you mentioned the Royal Society, which had a 160-year head start on the RAS, although I noticed that you now are, at least in terms of the number of members, are about three times as big as the Royal Society. Is there a relationship there or do you still collaborate between the two? I mean, it's, you know, I mean, I think interestingly, Sian had discovered some sort of occasional disputes back in the past. But these days they don't really happen that way.

We do collaborate. You know, we go to meetings. We did, for example example very importantly do that quite a long time ago but a century ago back in 1919 when the ras and the royal society co-funded an expedition to to verify einstein's theory of general relativity so certainly by that time you know that there wasn't any obvious enmity and we did that in collaboration with greenwich you know we sent an expedition expeditions to print keep a off the coast of west africa and to sobral in brazil um to support einstein's theory i mean that's probably a probably uh actually deserves more questions on it to be

honest because it's such a fascinating story but uh yeah we we collaborate not just with the royal society but with all the other scientific societies as well wasn't that Eddington's expedition? And he would become, or maybe already was, one of the long line of your distinguished presidents. Yeah, and he was awarded the gold medal and so on, rightly. Absolutely. It's a really brilliant example of an early-ish international collaboration in science, because these days in the 21st century and in the second half of the 20th century, you don't tend to have as many things being done by individual nations. Now, I guess the US might be an exception to that because the US is simply so big in terms of its output. But generally, particularly in Europe and Asia and so on,

we tend to be in collaborative systems for doing science. And the nice thing about that expedition was it was being devised during the First World War, so long before, certainly long before the Treaty of Versailles was signed as well in November 1919. It was just the idea that you could take a theory from Einstein, a German scientist, a then German scientist, and work out a way to test it. If there's one thing actually that the RAS has done in its history that's contributed to science, I really would cite this because apart from our existence and hosting things and fostering science and so on, this is really definitively something that transformed our understanding of the universe. And we'll come back to what the society does nowadays to support research and researchers. But I want to go back to the beginning again. Sean, I see that none other than William Herschel was the first president

of the society, though it appeared that maybe he was a little bit reluctant. He was. He was very advanced in years at the time. He was not the first choice of president. The first president, first person who agreed to become president was strongly encouraged to step down by Sir Joseph Banks of the Royal Society, who disapproved of a new scientific society being, a new network being set up outside of the auspices of the Royal Society. So in order to proceed with the meetings in a timely manner, William Herschel did agree to be the president, but in name only. He did not want to actually take the chair in meetings.

It was his son, John Herschel, who was one of the founding members and who played a leading role in getting the society up and running and who basically prevailed upon his father to to take the titular head remarkable i mean i mean herschel obviously also you know thinking of planetary radio i mean herschel uh discovered uranus back in the 1780s so yeah 40 1781 so nearly 40 years before he became the founding president of the ras but uh and his son john did remarkable work in the southern hemisphere with, you know, charting stars and adding to that catalogue of nebulae and so on, you know, this seminal work that took place in the 19th century

where the scale of telescopes continued to increase. And, you know, it was very much still the era, at least the beginning of the society, of people looking through telescopes and drawing them. You know, the stereotype of the astronomers standing out at night looking through the telescope really did apply back then. And of course, it doesn't in anything like the same way today, except those of us who do it as a hobby.

So in my role managing the archives and the library of the Society, I'd really like to highlight that one of the key parts of the collection are the papers of William and John and Caroline Herschel. the papers of William and John and Caroline Herschel. So we have those original notes showing the discovery of Uranus, which William Herschel at first thought was a comet. And we've got records of John Herschel's observations of nebulae and other deep sky objects and all of the other astronomical projects that he took on following in the footsteps of his father, and of course, Caroline Herschel's observations. And we're very pleased to say that there's an exhibition in the Herschel Museum in Bath

in the UK to really put the spotlight on John Herschel, not just as a founder of the Royal Astronomical Society, but as one of the not just as a founder of the Royal Astronomical Society, but as one of the preeminence scientists of the 19th century. So many distinguished astronomers who have headed the society, in addition to all of those who were members, of course, I saw the name of Fred Hoyle. You even have a Darwin, not Charles, but one of his sons. Yes, George Darwin, known as the grandfather of geophysics. He was one of the people who really made this study of the Earth and the figure of the Earth a key part of the activities of the society. Although it wasn't until 1917 that we first started having meetings dedicated to the subject of geophysics, which is just a key interest of our membership.

Quirkily, it's the weird thing about geophysics for us is that it encompasses planetary science as well. Now, I suspect the distinction is somewhat lost in the midst of time, but the idea was that the Earth was another of those planets that should be discovered. So for us, sometimes when we talk about geophysics, we refer to things like, you know, planetary missions and solar physics and so on. It's just, I suppose, a distinction between almost the bit of the universe we can theoretically visit and the bits that we can't. As you know, I'm with the Planetary Society, so you might have expected me to have planetary science on my mind. And I will note that one of the RAS's publications is astronomy and geophysics. It's really a very accessible way of presenting news and views and key aspects of research. And it's of interest not just to our members, but I think to wider society as well.

And also it replaced, to a certain extent, there was a kind of non-pre-reviewed publication called Quarterly Journal of the RAS, which is essentially replaced. And that was a kind of place for sort of less formal papers and so on. essentially replaced and and that was a kind of place for sort of less formal papers and so on so i think the aim of ang when it was founded in it it long predates my association with the ras was to do what sean describes to actually provide something that was a bit more discursive and and conversational than a formal journal was well we've mentioned astronomy and geophysics it is only one of the publications of of the ras could you talk about some of these other publications that are available to the research community? Sure, yeah. I mean, the two key ones are Monthly Notices, the Royal Astronomical Society, which is no longer even close to Monthly and hasn't been for many years,

and Geophysical Journal International. And Munras, or Monthly Notices, is by far the older of the two, and it dates back almost to close to the foundation of the society i think sean would know more of the details of that but this is the research journal one of the biggest in the world actually for astronomy where people put in papers and then they're assessed by their peers in that classic science system so you know it covers an enormous number of topics in astrophysics sometimes we get quite quite big science stories out of it. Occasionally, we will get, well, all manner of things really, covering everything from the origin information of the universe, cosmology, and so on, through to the presence of planets around other stars,

and so on. So it is an important part of the research landscape. And it's very much part of us as well. It is. It doesn't coincide exactly with the founding of the Society. The first journal which we set up was Memoirs of the Royal Astronomical Society, and that ran until 1978. But Monthly Notices was brought out for really prompt, up-to-the-minute announcements and updates in astronomy. And as Robert said, it's just a huge publication not not just in terms of research impact but like from my perspective as as the librarian again

it's still available in print form and i would say you know it's not monthly anymore it comes out in three volumes per month and combined they take up about six inches on the shelf. And I would say it's about a metre, a metre and a half of shelf space every year. Unfortunately, the majority of people don't subscribe to the paper. Papers are a very sound preservation medium for our days. I think more and more journals are moving online, though, or they're online only. The other journal which we must mention is Geophysical Journal International, which, as you can tell, concerns the science of the earth. That has been running in various forms since around 1917 when we started publishing a geophysical supplement. In fact, just today, I came across some early plates of diagrams,

like metal printing plates that the printer for formatting the figures to show all the different seismological measures. There was an article about sunspots as well. I showed them to my colleagues in the journal editing team and we're going to they're going to hopefully turn that into a social media story later because we want to promote our journal as it's as Robert said it's not just a matter of having the journal publication on on the journal publishers website our partners are Oxford University Press but Robert takes a lot of time to comb through the publications he can talk to you more about this and he's got a real instinct for what's newsworthy and what can come out as a press release and and that helps to get the astronomical

communities work and the geophysical communities work out there in the spotlight get to get the world looking at current developments to be fair um to to denigrate my own role slightly, these days, there's simply so many papers, we actually rely on authors coming to us rather than trying to read through them all, because there are simply hundreds of abstracts to come through, it would almost be an impossible task. But I think even as recently as 25 years ago, you know, it was way smaller, and it was feasible to do that. But the kind of scale of publication, and I suppose that's not just the fact that scientists are publishing more papers and there's a whole debate about whether they should be,

but also just that, you know, you've got rising science countries like China and so on just producing more content. It's become an absolutely burgeoning field and they do rely on online repositories like Archive and so on to search through these things much more quickly. I suppose, in a sense, it's an interesting challenge because what you might want is a system for being able to get to the number of this stuff more quickly, you know, to actually say, well, can we have a system where we can just read the stuff that's related to our subject? Or do we want people to have that oversight of science?

You know, do we want them to be able to look at things that aren't necessary in their field? If you have too many papers, that probably becomes a bit harder, actually. I will bet you that some AI expert listening to this is going to look into this now. You've led me to asking to hear more about your library, which I hear is the envy of many universities and other institutions. It probably is the envy of many places apart from perhaps the University, well, the Edinburgh Observatory, which has probably the best astronomical library in the UK. We still have perhaps the second best. in the UK, we still have perhaps the second best. And one of the collection strengths is both the archives and I have mentioned the Herschel papers as being the jewel in that collection. And we also have a really enviable collection of early printed books. And I'm

talking about things like the first edition of Copernicus, which has that really key woodcut showing the sun at the center of the solar system. It has the major works of Johannes Kepler, in which he, in a series of publications, arrives at sketching out what are now known as his three laws of planetary science, in which he expresses the theory that the reason that Copernicus' theory doesn't quite add up is because the orbits are not perfect circles, they are ellipses. And we have the first edition of Newton's Principia Mathematica. She lays out the rules of gravity.

But as well as all of these major works in the history of science, we have lesser known but still really beautifully illustrated, beautifully bound items. For example, we have an amazing collection of about 50 or 60 early printed books like Incunables, the first books to be printed in Western Europe before 1500, including books like The Sphere by Johannes de Sacrobosco or John of Holywood, in which he clearly lays out the state of knowledge in the late 15th century, which was that the earth is clearly spherical. And there are many ways of demonstrating this just from first principles or from observation. And this is one of the books I like to bring out during public events, during open house to just really highlight to people how long

educated people in universities in the medieval era and before knew that the earth was round. It's, you know, the idea of the earth being flat is almost a relative phenomenon, to be honest. Yes, I know of a few people who could benefit from reading that book today, sadly. Really good, simple woodcuts. Just a nice picture, for example, of a boat and there's somebody on the deck and there's somebody in the crow's nest. And you can see the eyeline of the person in the crow's nest seeing the shoreline before the person on the deck. Things like that, which are very, very accessible. The library, I know, is made available to researchers of all stripes. How does that work?

I assume that your members, the fellows, have ready access, but do you also grant access to researchers from outside of the RAS? Yes, we welcome researchers who are not members, and we have people coming from all over the world. I will note that the RAS began to accept women as members, as fellows, if you will, in 1915, well before women gained the vote here in the United States. And before they gained the vote, well, even three years before they even gained the partial franchise in the UK, actually, as well. Interesting. Since we are talking about research now and how the society supports it, Robert, if you could talk about the programs that are in place to support research, but also the men and women who do this work. Sure. I mean, well, we have four and a half

thousand members and they're all of a single grade called fellows. And yes, that doesn't include women and has done, as you point out, for a century, fortunately. The answer is that the society is very much a convening body. So we are there to represent the interests of astronomers and geophysicists and also of the science. So the way we do that is we publish the journals we've talked about already. You know, we enable that work to be shared. But we also run a big program of scientific meetings. You know, we invite people from all over the world to attend those, to put proposals together. And they run every month during the kind of academic season.

And alongside that, we have very many people booking the building as well. So in any given week, you know, you will find anything from a seminar on extraterrestrial life to a discussion on, I don't know, which missions

the European Space Agency should be supporting in the decade ahead. And our big event each year is the National Astronomy Meeting, which takes place with hundreds of people coming together to to discuss the latest findings in the field so that's the sort of stuff we do as well as that we have a grant scheme where we enable people just to

apply for quite small amounts of money not not as rich as say a government research body but little bits of seed funding that say enable might enable a student to travel to a conference or support an undergraduate doing a research project or possibly to pay for travel to one of those conferences, not just ours, but somewhere else in the world where they wouldn't be able to do that otherwise. And many people write to us later on, or particularly write to me, actually, if they're promoting some research and say, this was enabled by that little tiny bit of money you gave me you know that enabled me to go to the conference to have that conversation with the leading astronomer somewhere else in the world that gave my career a real boost so it's that kind of thing that really helps as well as the library

obviously you know we we also help to promote the science with the media and we are a political advocacy body to an extent too so we will you know argue that there should be some some level of support for our sciences to continue them to thrive because although the UK is obviously a small player on the global stage we we do have a pretty good research output for our size and an awful lot of people at least historically have come here for a period of time or sometimes chosen to settle here because they recognize the strength of that because they they can be involved in these global projects if they're based here. Well, not that small of a player, the UK that is.

Well, I don't know, less than 1% of the global population. We shouldn't get too excited. Let's just say that you punch above your weight. That's the expression we often use and which you hear endlessly from our government, I think. But it's fair. But at the same time, I'm also conscious of the fact there are hundreds of other countries in the world. You mentioned being involved in space and science policy decisions as we are at the Planetary Society. And so I was very interested to see that. How far does that go?

I mean, what kinds of policy activities does the RAS take on? That's very much in my domain. I mean, we've been, as anybody who follows the UK will know, the UK, even before the COVID epidemic was paralyzed by another kind of policy issue, which was Brexit. So we've been putting a lot of effort into that and trying to ensure that we remain outward looking and internationally connected, not just obviously with the rest of the world, as it has been, but with our European partners. But we do do things like we try to say, well, look, you know, if there's a budget settlement coming up, do not forget fundamental science, because astronomy, nobody, I think, credibly would say,

look, you should be spending half your science budget on astronomy, although we'd love that, obviously, but we're fairly realistic about these things. But what we would say is that, look, if you want to inspire children to pursue careers in science and technology then infusing them about the wider universe is a great way to do it and to do that it really is rather helpful if you can point to things that your country is doing so the things we do really really well like i don't know membership of the european southern observatory or or being the host for the headquarters of the square kilometer array or being the lead partner on missions like beppy colombo that's heading to mercury or or later on this decade the juice mission that will go to

jupiter those things really really matter and if the public hears about them and they they understand that the uk has that talent or that you, there is a small but nonetheless finite possibility that you can actually be one of those specialists that you could, for at least a period of your life, get to do science that's that exciting. It's more likely to persuade you to study it. Much to be proud of and to respect and protect as well, as we feel the same way here in the States. as we feel the same way here in the States. You briefly mentioned, one of you, that your headquarters, Burlington House, is the host to events, both for the Society, of course, but also for outsiders, apparently.

It has quite a history itself, doesn't it, Sean? It does. We moved here in 1874, and the building was built especially for the Royal Astronomical Society. It's part of two wings that were built onto the Royal Academy of Arts premises, which occupy a 17th century mansion that was built by the earls of Burlington. From our first meeting in a pub, we occupied a number of rented rooms in the Covent Garden area of London. And then we moved to a place called somerset house a former royal palace i believe but then the government wanted to repurpose that building for births marriages and deaths for like civil service functions so they very kindly built some new premises a new kind of science park in the West End of London.

I believe that there were thoughts, there were plans of offering the society space in the area where the Natural History Museum and the Science Museum and other national institutions are now, way over in the West of London. But I understand that not only the Royal Astronomical Society but other societies felt that it would just be way too far from the centre of London and just very very inconvenient so that's why they were like no we want to stay near the centre so we are just a stone's throw from Piccadilly Circus it's very very central facing onto the courtyard that has on one side the Royal Academy, but also other learner societies, for example, the Society of Antiquaries. That's a learner society of archaeologists and other people interested in historical studies.

The Royal Society of Chemistry, the Geological Society and the Linnaean Society. the Logical Society and the Linnaean Society. And speaking personally, one of the great things about working here is collaborating with my neighboring collection managers. We like to put together joint events and programs, drawing on the similarities as well as the differences in our collections. I would love to be part of one of those events and perhaps to visit Burlington House someday. But beyond that, if I or anybody else listening to this wanted to become a member of the Royal Astronomical Society,

do we have that option? Well, you do. Generally, so we're not a society, say, for everybody in the sense that we welcome an awful lot of people. What we don't want to do fundamentally is take your money if you're not going to get anything out of it, you know, to be idealistic about it. So we are there primarily for the professional research community, but we do have a lot of amateur astronomers

who are at what's described as an advanced level. And that, you know, just means that they've got some kind of commitment to advancing the science. They're regular observers, perhaps their astro images or something like that. We have a lot of people who previously studied astronomy, you know, that doesn't have to be

postgraduate level, that can be at undergraduate level as well, who then go on to completely different things. And perhaps, I don't know, I'm not, I'm making up this example, but if you were working as a wine merchant now, but you'd studied astronomy in the past, we'd probably be okay with that because it's an affinity and it demonstrates that you would get something out of membership. be okay with that because it's an affinity and it demonstrates that you would get something out of membership so uh it's not an onerous application process you just go to our website and apply ideally with someone who's already a member to to help with your nomination or you can apply in your own right but if you're just a starting out amateur astronomer it's probably not for you because the it's not it's not very expensive at 130 pounds a, but I wouldn't want to take that money from someone

who wasn't going to get something out of it. But you do get the right to attend our meetings with a discount. You come to many of our scientific meetings that we don't charge a great deal to get into those, but that's free. You get free access to our journals and benefits like that. And of course, you know, easier access to things like the library and to book meetings in our premises and all those things. So generally, I tell people, particularly students for whom membership starts at five pounds, that

that's a real bargain. If you're a student studying astronomy or space science or doing space engineering or something like that, it's a really, really good deal. It is a real bargain. And I believe it also means that you're eligible for applying for our program of grants. You are that's absolutely right and some of them some of the education ones you can even do that outside of the society with support from within it but that's absolutely right if you want one of those travel grants I mentioned before or you or your supervisor wants to apply for a bursary for an undergraduate and so on that that kind of thing becomes possible if you're a member. And it also means that you can participate in the society on one of our committees if

a vacancy comes up. True, and run for council and even president. Wow. Yeah, to be a member of council, to be a trustee is a great way of representing the astronomical community and steering the organisation. way of representing the astronomical community and steering the organization. I should also say that for people who have a general interest in astronomy but might not have, for example, like undergraduate credentials or who are just starting out, as Robert said, we do have a program called Friends of the Royal Astronomical Society. And that's a growing group of people who,

I believe it's 40 pounds a year. And there's a whole program of events and activities laid on just for them. And that's a really nice growing community of members. Some outstanding opportunities. Sean, your PhD is in medieval French, though you've also studied astronomy and you have an advanced degree in library science, not surprisingly. But how did you find yourself working for the Royal Astronomical Society? Very good question. I think that my serious answer to this question is I absolutely love to study the history of the book. That's what I did my PhD on, basically got into history of science through the history of the book. And I've always loved manuscripts of any age.

And that's why I'm absolutely delighted to be helping people access the collection of amazing hand-drawn observations and catalogues and organisational records about the society itself. I remember when I first started working here, what a steep learning curve it was. People were asking about planetary positions and I had to work out what right ascension was and declination. And that made me decide to study a bit more about the subject. I mean, I was brought in because I had a degree in library and information studies, and I had the basic skills to manage any kind of collection in theory. But yeah, I went to some evening classes at the Royal Observatory Greenwich for six weeks, and then I was lucky enough to get a place in the University College London Certificate in Astronomy,

which is an evening class which took place over two years. I really like working with this community of astronomers and geophysicists. They're just excellent at sharing their learning. As a lifelong astronomer, Robert, I wonder if working at this place with its tremendous historical significance for the field, if it has special meaning for you. It does. I mean, there are various places in the UK and around the world that could be considered part of that sort of spiritual heritage of astronomy. And the RAS and Burlington House is very much one of them.

I mean, I used to say the same about Greenwich when I worked there because it was one of the earliest, earliest still operating observatories in the world. One of my favorite shrines of science. Exactly. And, you know, and I think actually we underestimate the heritage value of these things at our peril, because when I think of, say, Jodrell Bank up in Cheshire, which has just got that World Heritage status, you know, or the Paris Observatory and all these landmarks of scientific history that really, really matter. And you go in and you think, well, okay, you know, this isn't a contemporary research facility, say, with state-of-the-art telescopes sighted in the Andes. But actually, you are very conscious of the fact that all these things were done here, you know, that there was a meeting,

at least over the way from us in 1919, discussing the findings of that expedition to prove general relativity. Hugely important things, or that, important things, or that they discussed the announcement of the discovery of Pluto, or that they criticized the fact that the UK hadn't been as successful as it might have been in the discovery of Neptune. So these things, they're there. And you think, of course, it's like any other job. You go into the office and you sit down and you do your work and you have a strong coffee to wake yourself up and you gossip with your colleagues and all the rest of it but not that i ever do that obviously but you uh at the end of the day you know you go in and just now and again when you wander around you know if you're locking up or you're looking in

the buildings you do see something remarkable i mean obviously the kind of things that you know that sean pulls out and she's described like first edition copernicus where you know there aren't many places in the world where you can go to work and fairly easily take a look at something like that. So it is a privilege. And I think everybody in the building doesn't forget that. They are aware of the fact that this is a place where special things were done and continue to happen to this day. Before we close, I want to give you a chance to promote something that the RAS is planning for November of this year, when Mars will be close to Earth. Oh, well, National Astronomy Week. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things we're involved with. It's not just us. It's UK astronomical societies

like the Society of Popular Astronomy, the British Astronomical Association, the local astronomy groups, people in Greenwich and so on, and the research councils who were very interested in this, because there will be at least one or two missions going to Mars this year, which is great. But although the lander, the UK lander, is likely now just been delayed, but that's fine. The European Space Agency won. Others will still be there, and it'll get there eventually. But the point about Mars is that it's a remarkable object because it captures our imagination. It's one of the places that's most like the Earth in the solar system. Although, yes, I do realize, obviously, you need oxygen.

You can't just step out and enjoy it like a science fiction landscape. But there's that tantalizing possibility there might just be life there. The world, which is evocative, and yet at the same time, having looked at it with some pretty good telescopes, you realise just how hard it is to see very much as well. So when it comes close to the Earth every 15 or 17 years or so, when it's really good, then it's a great time to encourage people to do that. And for astronomical societies, for amateur astronomers in particular, actually, to help the public see that and get them to get that magical experience of looking at it. So yes, as a public thing later in the year, I'd be delighted to see as many people as possible

getting their first look at Mars. If my travels someday bring me to Burlington House, I want to also make it very clear that you and your colleagues would be very welcome to visit the headquarters of a different society, my society in Pasadena. We don't go back nearly as far as you do. We're just celebrating our 40th anniversary this year. But I think that organizations have a lot in common. That would be a huge pleasure. I mean, you know, don't underestimate your influence. You're huge. I think you're a very famous organization as well. So it's a pleasure to be talking to you today. Thank you for that. I just want to say thank you very much indeed. Thank you both very much. This has just been a wonderful, delightful conversation. I hope to repeat it someday in person there at Burlington

House. Excellent. You'd be very welcome. We'd look forward to seeing you there. Yeah, that would be great. Congratulations again on this 200th anniversary of the Royal Astronomical Society. Again, we will put the link to the Society, which will be easy to find, even if you don't go to the show page, this week's episode page for Planetary Radio. But we have been talking with Robert Massey,

Deputy Executive Director of the Royal Astronomical Society, and to Sean Prosser, the librarian and archivist there at the RAS. Bruce Betts and What's Up are moments away. Hi, this is Kate from the Planetary Society. How does space spark your creativity? We want to hear from you. Whether you make cosmic art, take photos through a telescope, write haikus about the planets, or invent space games for your family, really any creative activity that's space-related, we invite you to share it with us. You can add your work to our collection by emailing it to us at connect at planetary dot org.

That's connect at planetary dot org. Thanks! Time for What's Up on Planetary Radio. And if I could pull it off and didn't mind being in such poor taste, now I would be speaking in a British accent, but they seem to be better at speaking in American accents. People don't realize that you're actually British and you always, you've been putting on an American accent for us ever since the beginning of this show. Well, that's true, Matt. It was subtle. I've been in the States so long that it's just really gone away.

Okay, this is terrible. This needs to stop now. Instead, you can tell us about the night sky. I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, we've got in the pre-dawn those three planets. I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, we've got in the pre-dawn those three planets. Look in the east in the pre-dawn and you will see really bright Jupiter and to its lower left, yellowish Saturn and to that farther lower left, reddish Mars. And they're kind of separating Jupiter and Saturn heading away from Mars in the sky and Mars. Watch for it brightening and brightening over the coming months. We've got in the evening skies still Venus just looking super bright over there in the evening west. On the 26th, the crescent moon will be hanging out near Venus, so that'll be lovely. Comets, they're out there, but they're definitely not naked eye. Comet Atlas broke up, but now we have a possible pinch hitter that'll come in. We'll see.

I'll keep you posted. So there may be a naked eye comet. I'm not saying like super bright from a urban area, but there might be one in mid to late May still. Probably not Comet Atlas. Ah, the dogs hate that. I'm really getting angry with the Oort cloud. I mean, is it true? Millions and millions of them out there? How come we don't get more? Come on, cloud, deliver. Sentences I never thought I would hear.

I'm really getting angry with the Oort cloud. Be careful what you ask for. Okay, never mind. All right, we move on to this week in space history. Big week in space history. 30th anniversary of the deployment of the Hubble Space Telescope. That thing's still just cranking. I mean, obviously, it had some servicing missions along the way.

I think it's done neat stuff. It's done something. It's called the Hubble Space Telescope. Ever since they, I mean, even before they corrected the optics, it was doing some good work, but my goodness, since then, I think still considered the most famous astronomical observatory of all time. Seems likely, but that's not a technical question, so I don't have a good answer. Okay. Let us go on to me not having good answers about other things,

and let's talk about Herodotus Space Fact. Oh. We'll be coming back to X-15 pilots, but I thought I'd note things that some people, you might know that eight X-15 pilots went above the U.S. Air Force definition of space, 50 miles. One, Joe Walker, on two flights, went above the FAI definition of space at 100 kilometers. That made, going with the FAI definition, Joe Walker the 13th person to have reached space. Oh, because he did that well into the Soviet and American space programs with capsules. Yep, exactly. We did have a bunch of people who talked about, what about all those pilots who made it above 50 miles, that Air Force definition, but only Walker who went past, you said FAI,

that's the Kármán line, right? 100 km or 62 miles? It is indeed. It's the general international definition from the Federation, Aeronautique Internationale. I don't know how to speak French. I apologize. First, we mangle English or at least British. And now- What else can we mangle? I'm sorry. Just trying to be fair here. Well, that's why I went with FAI, but I felt like I had to express what it was. There's no real magic as to where fair here. Well, that's why I went with FAI, but I felt like I had to express what it was. There's no real magic as to where space starts. It's a gradual transition, but there is some physics as to why. You might round it off to 100 kilometers, but essentially it's a fairly

arbitrary definition. So let's get on to the trivia contest. I asked you which X-15 pilots later flew on NASA spacecraft missions. And it's that word later that I think is very important because, I mean, there were people who just thought that this was a little bit too ambiguous. Talking about you, Kay Gilbert. But later, after the X-15, we have a winner from a part of this planet that we have never had a winner from before, at least in my memory. Pavel Kumesha lives in Belarus. There were only two of them, Neil Armstrong, Gemini 8 and Apollo 11, and Joe Engel, STS-2 and STS-51i. Is that an I or a 1? I'm not actually sure. He did also mention that accomplishment by Joseph Walker, who crossed the FAI, the Karman line. All of this, Pavel, that's enough to make you this week's winner. Congratulations.

You, if you choose to have it, we probably don't speak what is spoken locally there. But we could wrangle it, I'm sure. We have a good track record there. We will be happy to record a message for you, Pavel, of any reasonable length, and we'll be in touch with you about that. Rather than a lot of other sort of random responses from listeners this week, it's time for a Planetary Radio Space Poetry Festival. We have three of them. Gene Lewin, a regular contributor up in Washington. The pilots that flew the X-15 reached speeds and heights few men have seen. Of those that reached a heavenly height were dubbed astronauts on return from flight. One of these knights did not return, posthumously awarded his title earned.

Only two could add a NASA space mission to their shingle, Neil Armstrong and Joseph H. Engel. It's a little stretch, but it works. It works. Nice. Also from the state of Washington, Maureen Benz. Neil Armstrong and Joe Engel, mired in X-15 fame, were pushing past all limits, yet found it all too tame. NASA bestowed opportunities to hurtle through the stars. So those two former Boy Scouts roamed far, but not to Mars. And finally, from our poet laureate, Dave Fairchild,

a dozen pilots flew the ship we know as X-15, a rocket-powered beauty hypersonic limousine, and two of them went on to space. First, Armstrong. He was rad. The second was Joe Engel, born in Kansas, I might add. Dave, who happens to be a Kansan. That's it.

That's our festival for this week. You know, I happened to notice Joe Engel was voted, I think it was Kansan of the Year in like 1963. No kidding. Among his many, many, many accomplishments. Did he ever say on Shuttle Toto, I think we're not in Kansas anymore? I don't know, but I don't think my dogs like your joke. Toto probably beat them in the audition. What do you got for next time? Let's say it's

two-part. I think you'll like it. First part, straightforward. What is the name of the launch spacesuit used for launch and landing in the Soyuz spacecraft? And what does it have to do with Japanese sample return missions and SpaceX rockets? Go to planetary.org slash radio contest. Wow. I don't begin to, I don't even know the first part and the second part. My goodness. We really ought to come up with something special for this, much more special than our voices on your voicemail system.

Tell you what, I mean, we'll figure out some way to get you something special like a rubber asteroid, okay? It may take a while, but we'll get it to you. You have until the 29th. That'd be Wednesday, April 29th at 8 a.m. Pacific time to get us this answer and win yourself our voices and a mystery prize that will probably include a rubber asteroid. Listen, there is one other thing we have to mention. We brought it up sort of nebulously last week. Now we can be a little bit more firm. On Thursday, April 30th at 1 p.m. Pacific time, that's 4 p.m. Eastern and 20 hundred hours UTC,

you and I will be live. I'm not talking Planetary Radio Live here, which is not truly live. We're talking Planetary Radio Live here, which is not truly live. We're talking What's Up Live. And we hope that all of you will join us because you'll get to participate. To learn more and to watch it, for that matter, you can go to planetary.org slash live. Planetary.org slash live Thursday the 30th. Be there. Be there. You'll see our beautiful faces as well as hear our bad accents. Anyway, it's kind of your show because it is What's Up,

but are you going to have random space facts and maybe some trivia questions for people? We will indeed. We'll also talk about the night sky because we can. And we will also take questions from the world, which is a little terrifying. This is how it's going to start. We're the first. And hopefully we won't ruin it for our colleagues.

But if we do, we'll go out in a blaze of glory. We may find ourselves above the von Karman line. We're done. Get us out of here. Aye, Matt. We should think about what your favorite accent is to mess up. That'd be great. Go out there, look up in the night sky, and think about the accent you would mangle.

Thank you, and good night. Aye, laddie. That's it. I'm done. And he's done, too. That's Bruce Betts. He's the chief scientist of the Planetary Society who joins us every week for What's Up and for What's Up Live on Thursday, April 30th. Are you in the mood for one more poem? Here's a little present from the Royal Astronomical Society and British poet laureate Simon Armitage. The RAS asked Armitage to create a work that would help them mark the Society's

200th anniversary. With his permission, here is Simon Armitage reading Astronomy for Beginners. You were eight and fishing for planets and stars, slopping a bucket of rain into the backyard. You were waiting for cloudless dark, expecting the pinpoint reflections of Rigel Cantoris or Mars to crystallise under your nose, or a constellation, whole and intact, to glaze the surface like a web of frost. Or what if the moon grew hard and dense in the water's depths, like some knuckle of dinosaur bone? You'd need a landing net. But only Polaris proved itself in the liquid lens, then dissolved when you lifted it out on your fingertip. A Russian telescope didn't help.

Some camera obscura inside the tube flipped the map of the galaxy upside down. In the peephole eyepiece, families dangled from ceilings like bats and sheep hung from green clouds by their hooves. You were thirty by now. Tired of the stakeout. Tired of panning for sunspots and fool's gold, you traded starlight for birdlife, birds with their costumes and songs and shows. Once, in a shoulder of sand on Windermere's west shore, a dunnock curtsied while eating bread from your open hand. Old brightnesses,

old loves, and now you're scanning again for omens and signs, apple bobbing for hypergiants and white dwarves, calling down deep space onto a blank page, trawling for angels and black holes with a glass jar, knowing we're dying, knowing we'll never make it that far. Where did that tin of luminous stickers go? And the solar system mobile spinning on near-invisible thread? When she left home, you crashed out on your daughter's bed and woke in a Navajo cave, a remote language of light coming steadily into creation overhead. Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California, and is made possible by its Anglophilic members.

You can join space royalty at planetary.org slash membership. Mark Hilverde is our associate producer. Josh Doyle composed our theme, which is arranged and performed by Peter Schlosser. Be safe, everyone. Ad Astra.