Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - The Wonderful: a new documentary about the International Space Station

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

Clare Lewins has created a film that takes us inside the lives of people who have lived and worked on the International Space Station. Cady Coleman is one of the featured astronauts in this beautiful, intimate and very affecting documentary. Planetary Society contributor Jatan Mehta tells us about South Korea’s plans for a lunar orbiter with an amazing camera. Bruce Betts returns with yet another space trivia contest and a quick tour of the night sky. Learn more at https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/the-wonderful-film-clare-lewins-cady-colemanSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Wonderful Stories from the International Space Station, this week on Planetary Radio. Welcome. I'm Matt Kaplan of the Planetary Society, with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. There have been several documentaries about life aboard the ISS, but none I know of that have provided the deeply personal experiences and reflections you'll find in The Wonderful. The film's director, Claire Lewins, and one of its stars, astronaut Katie Coleman, will join us for a wonderful conversation. We'll also hear from science communicator Jatan Mehta for the first time. Jatan is a contributing editor at the Planetary Society. He has prepared a guide to South Korea's first deep space mission,

a lunar orbiter called KPLO that launches in less than a year. We'll talk with Jaton at his home in Mumbai, India. And there's another fun visit ahead with the Society's chief scientist. I hope you'll stay for What's Up with Bruce Betts. Once again, the biggest space story came too late for the September 17 edition of our free weekly newsletter, The Downlink. The Inspiration4 crew rode their Dragon capsule to a safe splashdown in the Atlantic Ocean on Saturday, September 18. splashdown in the Atlantic Ocean on Saturday, September 18. You'll hear Katie Coleman welcome these new space travelers to a club that is finally becoming a little less exclusive.

As of last week, we were up to 4,516 confirmed exoplanets. NASA's test mission continues to rack up discoveries. The team behind the dedicated Planet Finder has created a sweeping montage of the southern sky that includes 208 of its individual images. You'll find it at planetary.org slash downlink. You can also read about the astronaut and cosmonaut whose stays aboard the ISS have just been extended. They've given their rides home to the Russian movie director and actor, who will soon be shooting aboard the station. And NASA has awarded new lunar lander development contracts to five companies.

They include some of the competitors for the big human landing system contract that went to SpaceX. Here's my recent conversation with Jatan Mehta. Jatan, welcome to Planetary Radio for the first of what I hope will be many conversations about contributions you are making to the Planetary Society's website and other content. Again, welcome. Thank you so much for having me here, Matt. I'm very happy. So tell us about KPLO. Yes, KPLO is South Korea's first moon mission. So they are beginning their planetary exploration as a country, just like India forayed into planetary exploration with Chandrayaan-1. And it's a lunar orbiter, which will give us great new views of our moon

using its many incredible instruments, one of which is NASA's shadow cam instrument, which is an ultra-sensitive camera. In addition to the mission itself, KPLO also represents many other things, such as kick-starting a great collaboration with NASA as part of the larger Artemis program. So KPLO is multifaceted in that way in terms of what it means for South Korea. I want to talk a little bit more about ShadowCam. Judging from the piece that you wrote for us that people can find at planetary.org, of course, it's a mission page. So you can search for KPLO in our search engine on the society website. This looks like a camera that is going to be capable of doing things that have never been done above the moon

before. That's correct. The team behind ShadowCam is essentially much of the same people that were on LRO's narrow angle camera, which is known to have excellent resolution and has provided us with incredible views of the moon. The difference here is shadow cam is going to be at least 200 times more sensitive than LRO's NEC. So that makes a huge difference. So LRO never had a problem with the resolution, but if it wanted to image permanently shadowed regions which it did by the way but when it wanted to do that the sensitivity was lacking therefore the images wouldn't be look great and you couldn't plan roving or landing missions based on that. However with ShadowCam since you have at least 200 times the sensitivity you will be able to see permanently

shadowed regions almost as if they are sunlit and it also has a very great resolution of about 1.7 meters per pixel at its best so which is pretty great and that's about the size of a typical robotic lander in terms of its diameter which means that if you want to plan you know landing missions and surface missions inside permanently shadowed regions, which is where we believe scientists think that where the water is and other such resources are. So if you want to plan missions there which are meticulous in their nature, then shadow cam is how it will be enabled.

You also write about South Korea's fairly ambitious plans for the future. Tell us about those. Yeah, South Korea has so far made public the idea of having more, another lunar orbiter being launched soon after the first one. And after that, they want to do something far more ambitious, which is to have a fully indigenously built robotic lunar lander. So which is, again, very similar to what Chandrayaan-2 attempted. The idea is South Korea will have a robotic lunar lander and a rover and they will be launched on top of an indigenous rocket.

of an indigenous rocket. So this is again very similar to ISRO's model where Jandrayaan-2, the orbiter and the lander stack was launched on GSLV Mark III, which was again an indigenously built rocket. So the idea is South Korea wants to be self-sufficient in terms of its lunar exploration plans. At the same time, since they have a great partnership with NASA for KPLO, which isn't just restricted to shadow cam, NASA is providing support in terms of mission planning, mission design, communications via ground stations when the mission is on. There are nine scientists from NASA who joined the KPLO science team in March so as to enhance the mission's output. So this sort of a great synergy between NASA and South Korea is really nice to hear about. And they want to double down on this because about in May or June around that time, South Korea also signed up to be part of Artemis Accords, which is basically what NASA calls a set of cooperative tools for enhanced lunar exploration,

wherein each country that participates and signs Artemis Accords can help each other out and share scientific data, have opportunities for payloads whenever a mission from any of the countries go, and so on. It's great to see the Artemis Accords becoming a truly international effort to eventually, I mean, a truly international effort to eventually, as NASA likes to say, put that first woman and next man back on the moon and have a permanent presence there. So when can we expect to see the launch of KPLO on a Falcon 9 rocket and reach the moon? They are targeting August 2022 at the earliest for the launch on a Falcon 9. at the earliest for the launch on Falcon 9. And they are going to take a ballistic trajectory to the moon, which basically means that regardless of any smaller launch delays in terms of, let's say, a few weeks or a month,

it will still reach the moon around the same time as intended in December 2022. Can't wait. Very exciting stuff. Thank you for bringing us this overview. Of course, there are additional details in the mission or on the mission page that Jatan has prepared for us, planetary.org. Jatan, again, thank you very much for giving us this little preview of the KPLO mission. Thank you so much for having me here. I was glad to do that. And especially because KPLO reminds me a lot of Chandrayaan-1. I was just 14 when Chandrayaan-1 launched.

And that thing really inspired me. So I hope South Korean students and kids will get inspired just the same. And of course, we at the Planetary Society applaud all nations that set out across the solar system to join this grand effort of exploration. Jaton Mehta is a contributing editor for the Planetary Society. You can find his independent blog at blog.jaton.space. It includes his really excellent Moon Monday weekly updates about all things lunar. And Jaton was also a science officer for the Team Indus

Moon Mission effort. He tweets from at Uncertain Quark. The Wonderful Stories from the Space Station is available in theaters and everywhere on demand right now. I wish I'd seen it on a really big screen in a dark room with a lot of other space fans, it's not just the beautiful footage and music that make this a great film. It's really much more what the stars bring to the production. Those stars are an international selection of astronauts and cosmonauts that we spend intimate moments with on the ground and high overhead. You'll hear director Claire Lewins, astronaut Katie Coleman, and me talk about many of them, like Bill Shepard, the man who turned on the lights in the ISS,

and Ron Garan, who flew on Expedition 2728 with Katie and wrote The Orbital Perspective when he returned to Earth. There are also some who bid farewell to these space travelers and watch them pass overhead. They include Katie's artist husband, Josh. Claire, Katie, and I gathered online a few days ago. Claire Lewins, Katie Coleman, welcome, and thank you for joining us on Planetary Radio. It is a pleasure to have you in front of our microphones, but it was also such a pleasure to see this terrific film. So congratulations to both

of you on that. And especially to you, Claire, the director of the film, it is quite an accomplishment. Well, thank you very much, Matthew. And thank you very much to your audience for supporting our film. Well, I hope they will because it definitely deserves to be seen. And I think that our audience in particular, a whole bunch of space geeks out there, are going to love seeing this film. I'm going to start with something that is unrelated to, well, it is related to the film, but it's not addressed in the film. Katie, I didn't get to watch your live Netflix coverage last night as we speak of the Inspiration4 launch because I was co-hosting a launch party for the Explore Mars nonprofit, a sister group to the Planetary Society.

I hope you had as much fun as we did. It was amazing. Basically being, you know, one of the people that gets to bring this launch to everybody really meant a lot to me. But just the fact that that then let me be at a launch and see it. And they like to go to the SpaceX feed when it's actually the launch, which allows us to like turn around

and actually be present, which was really important to me because there is, I mean, leaving the planet is really, really, really hard. And I think when it happens, there's just something, you know, inside where you just realize that everything has to go right

and you just so much want it to go right and you just so much want to want it to go right and I just I watched them until they were they were just a little star and it just meant the world to me to be there I'm not a bit surprised that's kind of what I expected to hear and Claire I bet you're not surprised either there are so many deeply memorable and personal moments in this film that you've created. Did you go into this project expecting that, the level of sort of personal emotion that is in almost every moment of the film? Well, when actually the producer, George Tignall, first came to me with the idea of doing a film about the space station, I said, no, this isn't for me. I know nothing about science.

You know, as a little girl, I lay on the grass with my friends looking up at the stars. I never once, for a second, dreamt of actually leaving Earth. I mean, that's completely mad. You know, you look at the, you know, think of the lovely space and the universe, but to actually leave home and leave the planet. So I said, no, this isn't for me. And then I started looking into it.

And then the thing that struck me first, and't for me and then I started looking into it and then I the thing that struck me first and I don't know where I was before not knowing this but while the 7.5 billion of us are going about our everyday lives there's six people off the planet in this outpost in space and you're thinking that is just extraordinary and then so I started thinking about it and I was thinking yes it is it is. It's amazing scientific endeavour and collaboration and just a feat of engineering. But that's not what interests me. It's not the 450 tonnes of spaceship. It's the human stories, because every person that goes up there, there's a whole chain of people that get them up there. That very astronaut, you know, who's inspired by Gagarin or John Glenn or

the cosmonauts. So I thought, for me, it's really the human stories. And all this played out against this vast, amazing, velvety backdrop of the universe. So that's what interested me. I totally agree. And I think you did communicate that very well. We talk about the science and technology on this show all the time. Now and then we get to talk about the science and technology on this show all the time, now and then we get to talk about the intersection with art as well. And I hope that that will come up today. But it's that, it's those personal stories which are so very affecting. I counted 10 locations listed in the credits. One of them I'm curious about is there's a closing scene of a father and daughter launching a model rocket. Where did that take place? Well, Bill Shepard rings me every other day

to ask me where that is. And I said, if I tell him, I'd have to kill him. And we do like question and answers. So I say, and he says, is that place dry? And I said, it can be, you know, at the end of it, I just said, it's Mars, Bill, just get it. I'm afraid I can't reveal my sources. Claire, if I ask you, are you going to give the same answer? Of course. Just check it. Try again when we're not recording, Katie. Try again after I've had a glass of wine. There's $10 in it for you, Katie, if you'll call me after Claire gives it away. You know, she's quiet but firm, you know. She gets her answers.

Also, speaking very loudly in the film, well, maybe that's the wrong way to put it, but it is a wonderful presence in the film, well, maybe that's the wrong way to put it, but it is a wonderful presence in the film, is the music, the soundtrack that you used under the voices of these wonderful people like Katie. You want to say something about that? Well, as much as I'm not known for science, music is really important in the films I make because what I was trying to do, once I established that I wanted to make this film about human connection, then I thought the sounds of Earth are really important. So each story is actually introduced by a sound. So with Peggy Whitson, it's the science of a little fly going around the farm.

With Tim Peake, it's the sound of the ocean where he grew up. With Cady's story, it's the sound of fire from Josh's kiln. With Cady's story, it's the sound of fire from Josh's kiln. You know, it's that sort of, I don't want to make it sound like a band from the 70s, but it is earth, wind and fire. You know, those visceral elemental elements. And as part of that, I thought music is so important. And so I worked with this fantastic composer called Ben Foster. And it was just a real privilege to work with him. We used as the sort of almost theme, a Tchaikovsky's hymn to a cherubim. And that is sort of this Russian choir,

this amazing sort of almost anthem-like piece of music. And that's what we use in Katie's section when she's in Russia and she takes off. And that was sort of like the holding theme. And we just sort of, Ben just composed into that. But the music is really important. It works perfectly. Speaking of music, Katie, I have to mention, I'm a big fan of the Chieftains and Ian Anderson and Jethro Tull. And I always get a kick, I watched it again last night, of your flute floating into the frame before you joined Ian Anderson for that wonderful duet that the two of you did. I'm very proud of that, actually. First of all, I love that it's this collaboration between two people. I mean, I didn't know Ian Anderson. I did not meet him

until I got home. And I think that I tell people in terms of being on a team and really being your best self, you have to be brave and you have to be open. And I think I had tell people in terms of being on a team and really being your best self, you have to be brave and you have to be open. And I think I had to be brave to ask him and, you know, not necessarily, would you like me to bring your flute to space, but is there something we could do together that would really share this experience? And he came up with that, but I think he had to be open. I mean, he never heard me play anything when he said, yes, I don't think. He just, he just, he's a real big fan of the space program in a profound and technical way. And so it's been a really nice friendship ever since.

But that's the theory. And then doing this on board, of course, the time was clicking down. And suddenly, you know, by the time the idea was generated and we're going to do it, I really had exactly one lunchtime to make this happen. And I am very proud to tell you that it is one take of the flute floating down and playing and then another take of just playing the music again in case he needed more than that. And then I uncovered the cameras in the Japanese module and started back to work. It's perfect. And there is that intersection of art and science once again.

Claire, you opened the film with that memorable speech by John F. Kennedy about why we do these hard things. It seemed very appropriate, even though JFK probably couldn't envision these people living up there above our heads. I wanted to show the space station, really. And when I'm saying this, I'm not an expert in this area. So I know your audience would know more than me. But I want to show it as one step in a series of steps of human exploration. You know, this whole desire to explore the universe.

It's not going to end with the space station. You know, from there, we learn to go onto new planets or Mars or whatever. So that's why I wanted to give it a bit of gravitas. I was surprised by my own reaction several times. For example, watching the lights inside the International Space Station be switched on for the first time was very affecting. He was dreaming of being a cosmonaut. He turns off the light of the sports way of playing football. And then next time you hear that music, they're turning on the lights of the space station.

I thought it was kind of symbolic, really, of a sort of new era. Okay, you're opening my eyes and ears to other things, because I didn't even catch that in the film. But thank you. I have to tell you that even though you feature all these wonderful astronauts like Katie, I have to tell you that even though you feature all these wonderful astronauts like Katie, the person that I sadly had to identify most with was also at the top of the film, Ginger Carrick, who trained some of the early crews to go on the ISS, but she really wanted to go up there herself. And it was just, you know, health problems that prevented her following that dream. and it was just health problems that prevented her following that dream. But then there are so many of us who would like to follow in your footsteps, Katie,

and make our way up there. I guess that's why missions like Inspiration4 are so exciting to us. But I feel that watching all of you when you're up there as well, much as I would like to join you, It sure is great to see the rest of you, especially in that cupola looking down on us here on our pale blue dot. I love that you brought up Ginger's story in that, you know, I worked very much with Ginger, and I worked on that first expedition, and as somebody who worked in training and then became a flight director, I mean, Ginger is supreme. And she's just so knowledgeable, and she has both the big picture and the smaller picture,

and especially at this early time of working with the Russians and figuring things out. I mean, those times were not easy, and it was real people that built those bridges, and Ginger is certainly one of those people. And in terms of you know something in your in your medical history it doesn't even have to be a problem but in the early days they restricted you know it's really because we're big lab rats right and they want to we don't have that many people going to space and if there's 10 people that do that test and then something shows up is it because of your past history or is it because of what happened in space? They want to be definitive. It's just totally unfair. It's not,

I mean, but it is the way it is. Right. And, but I think for me, it makes me feel all that more responsible that, you know, I was in a position that my medical history worked and that I was, I mean, I felt very qualified and at the same time, there's a right place and a right time. And so none of us goes alone. And the fact that Claire would make this film that brings other people to this special place where not enough people have gone meant the world to me.

The focus, of course, is on those of you who got to make that trip. Maybe, I think it's 400 people out of the 7 billion who've been able to get up there so far. Hopefully those numbers will... More like 600. 600, thank you. Okay. Still quite an imbalance there. One that hopefully in the coming years, as a new age begins, we're going to see start to balance out a little bit better. But Claire, I wonder, among these people, and they are special people who have been able to make the trip, did you develop any sense of what these men and women who've flown in space, what they have in common? Is there something that unites them? That's a very interesting question, actually, because I thought, when I first started, I thought these people have

got to be much, much cleverer than the rest of us. Which they are, by the way. And they've got to be much braver than the rest of us, which they're certainly braver than me. I don't even like going in elevators. But what I found, what it was, and I know it's in this time of COVID and all this sort of stress of the epidemic. What I found and I found it really moving was this incredible determination, this quiet determination just to keep going. And it's like with Peggy Whitson. I think she was rejected 10 times and she still kept going. And then, you know, now she's, you know, her nickname is a space ninja and she will be going up again. So it's this whole thing of just quietly getting on with it.

So that's one of the things I found. And they're also incredibly dexterous. Like for some reason, I gave Samantha Cristoforetti a box when I first met her, which had a secret drawer. And I was about to explain to her where it was and she'd already opened it. You know, as she was talking to me, she'd done that and she'd done it.

And I was thinking, wow. And, you know, they can hang already opened it you know she was talking to me she'd done that and she'd done it and I was thinking wow and you know they can hang upside down you know I mean I'm absolutely blown away by them actually and how lucky we are to have people like that who would risk everything just for sort of science and human exploration I mean we are we you know that they're the pathfinders that go ahead for the rest of us, really. And looking at inspiration for, you know, Clare, you talk, you know, very, you know, I was on the edge of my seat about whether you're going

to say we're clever or not, right? But everybody brings something. And knowing, I mean, the four people that are up there right now bring so much and so many with them. And so I'm just, I don't know, it really means a lot to me. Claire Lewins, Katie Coleman, and I will be back in a minute with more stories of the wonderful. Hi again, everyone. It's Bruce. Many of you know that I'm the program manager for the Planetary Society's LightSail program.

LightSail 2 made history with its launch and deployment in 2019, and it's still sailing. It will soon be featured in the Smithsonian's new Futures exhibition. Your support made this happen. LightSail still has much to teach us. Will you help us sail on into our extended mission? Your gift will sustain daily operations and help us inform future solar sailing missions like NASA's NEA Scout. When you give today, your contribution will be matched up to $25,000 by a generous society member. Plus, when you give $100 or more, we will send you the official LightSail 2 extended mission patch to wear with pride. LightSail 2 Extended Mission Patch to Wear with Pride.

Make your contribution to science and history at planetary.org slash S-A-I-L-O-N. That's planetary.org slash sail on. Thanks. One of the topics that I like to bring up on the show, especially when I talk to astronauts, is how astronauts have changed over the years. I've been lucky enough to talk to several of the Apollo astronauts. They have the right stuff, to coin a phrase. So do all of you who have followed them.

But there is a difference. And it seems to me, and this is something I've talked with Andy Chaykin about as well, and he agrees that those of you who came after that era have something more. And Samantha is a good example of this. She's just one of the nicest people in the world. And Katie, we haven't met before, but I have the same impression of you. I suspect that NASA makes a point of selecting nice people because you're going to have to get along with several other nice people for a long time in a very cramped space working very hard maybe it's just the women that are so nice i am just i'm just teasing i am just teasing it is actually i think a myth i think we are i think we

well i'll put it this way i don't think that we're necessarily so different than the early astronauts, but I think the culture of what, you know, what does doing your job mean? And within doing that job, is it okay to be generous and share that experience and show a different side of you? And some people choose to, and some people don't. And back then, I think there was a clearer mission. And they were actually just plain old busy doing all that development, you know, to be able to let those other sides of them show. So I don't know that we're so different, but I do love that more and

more people have gone. And, you know, for me, of course, a lot of that is tied up in the question of women going. And it actually meant the world to me when Jeff Bezos brought Wally Funk to space with him on his first mission. I mean, he could have brought anybody, right? And he chose to bring Wally. And when he did that, basically when Wally flies, all of us who are that 50% of the planet go with her. all of us who are that 50% of the planet go with her. I mean, back in those early days, I don't think that those 13 women were ever promised you will be astronauts. But if you read the correspondence, I mean, they were certainly told you have a lot of skills that a bunch of women don't have in terms of time with airplanes and all those things. They passed or

surpassed those tests that the Mercury astronauts took. And they felt like they were, these letters said, will you come and do this testing in the hopes that NASA will bring women? And the letters that go back pretty much say, you know, we've got a selection process and it pretty much works and we don't really have time to redo it and look at a whole different category. I mean, these test pilots, their records are really easy to access. We know who they are. And we just don't have time to include other people. It wasn't until the 80s

that then we have women flying in space as well. So I am glad that things have changed in that way. And it is films like Claire's that, I mean, she shows several women in that film, and we're all clearly very different people. And I think that's a really important point, too. I also don't want to imply that any of you have any less of the right stuff than those early astronauts did. I think of the story Andy Chaikin told on our show a few weeks ago. He said that he was on a committee.

They were talking to astronaut candidates, and they were blown away by how well qualified all of them were. And an Apollo astronaut was sitting next to him, someone he'd known for years, turned to one of the other Apollo astronauts, now that I think of it, and said, you know what? If we were applying now, I don't think I'd have accepted us, because these people, all of you, are so qualified. I want to move on to something else. Claire, the overview effect is only specifically referred to once by Scott Kelly toward the end of the film. But it is, of course, it's that effect that was identified and is so eloquently written about by the great Frank White. It comes up frequently on this show in conversations with astronauts and others. I think I could hear it, though, behind much of what we hear in the film.

Was it something that you wanted consciously, that you wanted the audience to hear as well? I think it's just they've got this amazing, the astronauts got an amazing vantage point. You know, as Katie said, it's 600 odd people that have that privilege to be above the earth. Scott Kelly talks about how fragile the earth looks. And then Samantha says she's, Samantha Christopher says she's like a guardian with her arms embracing the earth. So you never really feel that far away. That, of course, is interesting. Absolutely. Katie, did you feel it?

Did you have a sense of what we now know as the overview effect as you circle the earth? I don't really like to put a label on it in that way. But when I look back at the earth, it's just so clear in a very visceral way that everyone else is down there and they're all connected to each other. And my thought is if only they knew, you know, if only they knew that just on

the other side of the earth is somebody who surely cares about climate change the same amount that they do. Knowing that people could be connected when I get home, it's my mission to help make that happen. To use that view that I had up there, you know, that surety that people should find each other to solve our problems down here, just makes me really determined to be a part of making those solutions happen. You know, even if you're not putting that label on it, that is the message that I've heard from so many other astronauts. And I'm glad to hear it from you as well. Have you interviewed Ron Guerin? Ron was on the show quite a while back.

Yes. And we did talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. He and I hosted last night together. And just listening to him, I mean, he made a profound difference for me up on the station of opening my world to more of a global view. Where mine had been more just my experience, the people that I knew, the communities I knew.

And he really gave me a better feel for coming from the whole world. Well, shout out to Ron then. You also made me think of something that is in the film that's said by Koichi Wakata, who quotes our founder at the Planetary Society, Carl Sagan, from his wonderful pale blue dot speech. That's here, that's home, that's us. It wasn't quite a dot for those of you just 200 miles or so overhead, but I think it's appropriate.

I loved seeing that. In fact, I took a screenshot, Claire, from my copy, really just for me. I mean, not to be sending out anywhere, but just for me, because it captured something that I very much feel when I'm up there. Claire, family seems to be another recurring theme. Sergei Volkov and his astronaut father, Alexander, watching Tim Peake's wife and kids at his launch, perhaps most affectingly, Katie's story that I'm going to come back to in a moment. But I wonder, was that also a theme that you were hoping people would catch on to?

Well, as Katie was saying earlier, it's the human connections, really. For Katie to be able to go up into space or for Tim Peake to be able to go into space, he needs this family unit. What I found really moving, you know, from Kazakhstan, the families are all waving through glass. And then you have the fist bumps of the kids with Tim Peake. Then they get an email in space and Koichi's trying not to cry when he's talking to his son. And it's this whole space between the words, you know, the fact that you may be 250 miles above Earth, but you've got this connection. That, to me, was really important.

And that's what I was really thrilled about, about humanity, that we are connected like that. that very touching scene when your husband, Josh, and your son are standing under the stars, and they watch you pass by overhead like a wandering star. It is one of those scenes that I'll probably remember all my life. It meant a lot to me to watch the film when it was finished, in that I didn't hear any of the interviews that Claire did with my son and my husband. And I know from my end, Claire asked me questions that no one had ever asked me. And I just thought this is going to be a very interesting and unusual film. But then when I got to actually see and hear our section and listen to my son and my husband talk about what it was like

for them. It really just meant the world to me. It was actually hard for me. I mean, certainly I cried. And then we actually, we are all in different places now. And I have another son as well, a stepson. And we all ended up in the same place and got to watch the movie again together. ended up in the same place and got to watch the movie again together. It was, we don't, you know, life gets busy and we don't go back and sort of always, you know, go back and think about what that meant to all of us. And it was really an important time when the film came out to do it together. I was also struck, I'm always struck by how many of you on the ISS, in a sense, create new families, even if they're temporary families, just with your companions on the space station. I think I saw this again with the Inspiration4 crew last night. Did you get that sense of family when you

spent months, nearly six months months on the station? Absolutely. I mean, there's actually the space family, meaning anyone who you know is going to go to space who's selected to be an astronaut. There's a certain, it makes you realize that, you know, there's a certain something that you have in common, even if you're very different from that person, whether they are a billionaire

or they are a person that bought a ticket on Virgin Galactic, or there's someone who is flying science experiments on Blue Origin. There is that connection, and I think of it as a family. And in fact, you know, we don't have technical relationship with China in terms of discussing space technology, but we have an organization of the Association of Space Explorers, everyone who's been to space, of which now we have four more members as of last night, right? And you know, within that family, we don't do, we talk about the things that are important to us about how we feel about being astronauts. And on a crew itself, there is something very special. And it meant a lot to me,

actually, just last night to be co-hosting the Netflix time live stream of the inspiration for launch with Ron, where we reminded each other of stories that we hadn't thought about. And we have a funny little thing that we say, I go, you know, I miss brushing my teeth with you. And because it's small, but we used to brush our teeth in the same place that was right around the corner from the bathroom. It was, you know, you weren't taking up the bathroom, but there was a little place that we just made the sort of, you know, the kind of messy place and we'd often that's kind of where Ron and I started our day. And so I miss, I miss those times. And we we always just have special relationships, even when we don't have so much in common, or we don't get to see each other. There's always that sort of string

between you because you shared something very, very special. And I think it's that human relationship part that gets you through that. It helps you overcome the differences that you might have. I know that your time is limited. You've got a lot of other folks to talk to about this film, as well as everything else going on in your lives. I've got a few other questions if you have time. And Claire, I want to go to another angle of the film, which is that you didn't shy away from the downside, the difficulty, the not loneliness, but the separation that was enforced that all of these astronauts know that they are headed into. But it's also dealing with things that were happening, you know, below them, even tragedies. when Frank Culbertson on Expedition 3 had to be told what had happened and that they could actually see the smoke coming from the World Trade Tower site. That incredibly affecting moment when he plays taps on the trumpet

as the station rolls on, followed by his journal entry. I can certainly see why this was also a part of the experience that you wanted to bring out. Well, I think if you're going to show space, really, space exploration, you have to show the downsides, the danger. Scott Kelly's, as he said, he's listening to a reverse of that, Killing Me Softly, and he's sitting on 250 tons of a factory of bomb. me softly and he's sitting on 250 tons of effectively a bomb and there is a jeopardy there is a danger i mean um josh said about katie you know my wife didn't want to die but she has to be aware of the dangers with the actual 9-11 story with frank culbertson it was more than that it was that existential thing he's almost like the only person off the planet he's not the only

person but he's the only american off the planet he's not the only person but he's the only American off the planet when somebody is attacking earth and he can see it all unfolding yet he can't do anything and for me what was really moving about the story other than the obvious was that the fact that in Moscow mission control they all kept saying how's Frank how's Frank it was the fact that they were looking out for him that really gives you that sense of sort of humanity reaching out to each other. And I think, Katie, you mentioned to me that it was you that he spoke to. That voice, when you hear mission control, that that's actually me talking to Frank. You were Capcom that day. Wow. Oh, my. I walked in just as the second tower was coming

down to start my shift. And, you know, we moved to mission control to a different my. I walked in just as the second tower was coming down to start my shift. And, you know, we moved mission control to a different location. I mean, people had already talked to Frank about what was going on. But, I mean, certainly he and I have a different relationship to this day because of spending that week together. When we were up there, there was a tsunami that struck Japan. were up there um uh there was a tsunami that that struck japan and to me that it was an interesting in looking back on it we had just captured um for the second time ever a supply ship up on the space station with the robotic arm and it's a japanese supply ship and so we worked really closely with that team and i mean their mission control was affected, you know, damaged and evacuated and

people were looking for their families. It gives me chills just to think about it. And this was definitely part of our team on the ground. We took pictures of Japan from space. We asked what time we'd be going over and they said, well, you know, it's going to be while you're sleeping. So, well, that's not what we asked you. We said, when are we going over Japan? And so we took pictures night and day. And those pictures were actually helpful in terms of understanding how much power was left there and in what Japan looked like. And we made a, we asked them what we could do. And they asked us to make these white cranes out of origami. And those white cranes and the making of them was on Japanese billboards for a long time representing that those white cranes represent

hope and rebuilding. Claire, this can't help but remind me of the international nature of this film. You went so deeply into the stories, the personal stories of astronauts around the world, Russia, the United States, the UK, Japan, Italy, a very important theme. And I think one that is so well represented by the International Space Station itself, this great international collaboration, right? I think it's one of the, you know, the biggest enterprises in peacetime of international collaboration anyway. And it was, I think, Ginger who said if she hadn't heard about the space race and all that Cold War, just from on the ground, she would have never known. Because I think when you're up there, you have to rely, I mean, Katie would know better than me, but you have to rely on your colleagues for life and death. So you have to get on actually. But it was important to reflect the international theme, because sometimes people just think of NASA, or they may just think, but it's actually JAXA,

Roscomoth, you know, CSA, and ESA. So I was, I think Samantha was a bit surprised we came to film her in her village in Italy at Christmas. That was charming, by the way. I know. I said, oh, you indulge me. I imagine you're looking up at the stars as a young girl. She said, well, that's what I did up in the mountains. I said, are you going to go back? She said, I only go there at Christmas.

I said, okay, we'll come there. We came over. I think she was a bit surprised. But anyway, but it was just I just wanted to show really it's about dreams as well young young people you know kids and Koichi dreaming of being an astronaut he has no sort of cultural references for that it's not like here I mean or in America with John Glenn or you know he just wanted to be an astronaut. Katie, speaking of role models, you had the same title, one of your titles on your International Space Station mission of science officer that Leonard Nimoy, Spock had on the

Enterprise. They kept you very, very busy. I know you were also robotics officer, a robotics lead, I know you were also robotics officer, a robotics lead, I guess. And we talk about that a lot on this show. But I'm more wondering about what you did in your spare time, some of which is in the film. We've already talked about your flute. I think you're well known for that. And then spending time just looking down at Earth. It is actually incredibly busy up there.

And when you talk about spare time, I think, well, I sort of practiced robotics in my spare time. And, and, and, and actually just getting the science experiments ready, or, or talking with, you know, my, my, our crew about what those experiments meant, or why so careful or exactly this way. So there's a lot of your spare time that gets used up that way, but you have to be a human up there. And for me, a big part of that was talking to my family, which I did every day except for three. And then on the weekends, we would have video conferences.

I have to tell you that in looking for film for Claire, you know, to have, I went back and looked at my family conferences and I only had really my viewpoint of what they were like when I'd call down, we'd have this video conference and then, you know, maybe it would have, you know, the connection wouldn't break. And there's always someone in Houston helping you with that. But what I got to see when I asked for the copies of these was video of my family, what happens when they don't see me anymore? And they don't realize that, you know, I'm actually, I mean, I'm not seeing them,

but now in the after video, I'm getting to see their frustration with the connection and just what it's like to be trying to talk to your mom up on the space station when it looks like she's there, but then she went away and those kinds of frustrations of everyday life. Something that I think really kept us going was the stability of being able to talk literally on the phone. And I'd learned from my training around the world, reading stories with my son. And it just, it was really about having a place to be together where we would just we actually were reading peter and the star catchers which i think is a great series about you know beat the life before peter pan and it you know has smart girls and smart boys and sword fights and so getting to read stories to him and getting to spend that time together really meant the world to me and it i spent a

lot of time every day actually doing that stuff. And that was really my choice to do. Claire, I have to mention one other favorite scene before I ask you one more question. And that was when Scott Kelly, who has just returned home, he tumbles into his backyard pool, still wearing his flight suit. I laughed, but I also felt his profound sense of relief. And there are a lot of moments that are similar to that, that are really intimate moments in the film. What has changed in your thinking about these people who go into space and all the work it takes to get them there?

I think what I always thought they must be special people, but it's an awful lot of hard work. It's a lot of training and a sacrifice. You know, when that first Expedition One happened, five years, I think, Bill said they were training on and off in Russia. It was pretty hardcore, the training, throwing them into the icy water and everything. But what it made me

realize was just how their way and they're and they're so pleased to be in space and so happy and privileged but then it's a kind of a relief when you come home but then I imagine it's then it's difficult because what what Scott said a bit like when Katie said what spare time um it's it's pretty there's something called I I don't know, Katie, I think it's called chasing the line or something. So they're trying to do all these schedules and they're constantly every single. Oh yes.

Chasing the blue line that is like, this is where you are. And this is what you're supposed to have already done. So that's every minute of the day is like that. Every little segment is assigned and people down in NASA or wherever, Roscommon day is like that. Every little segment is assigned. And people down in Nassau or wherever, Roscombe, are planning all that. So when he finally came back after a year, he didn't know what to do with his spare time. It was really discombobulating him because he had nobody. He could go and get a beer if he wanted or whatever. You know, there was nobody.

He didn't have to do anything. And I think that's the adjustments you have to make is quite. I hadn't thought about that. I need think that's the adjustments you have to make is quite, I hadn't thought that about that. I need to let the two of you go. It is a very busy time, I know, with this film coming out. And I congratulate both of you again. I will close with just one more quote from a review of the film from New Scientist. The story of success that is the space station leaves the viewer with hope that when working together, humans can do great things. Claire, Katie, thank you so much and best of continued success. Thank you very much.

I was just going to say that after listening to this, I realized that I need to watch the film about 40 more times. I mean, there's a fascinating amount of depth. And I really loved every minute of this film. It's interesting to think about all the different things that Claire has put in there. It'll take me a while to learn. I don't think you need to watch it 40. A few more. Something to look forward to.

It's true. We'd better get out of here before Universal never lets me go to one of their movies again. Thank you again, both of you. This was great. Thanks very much, Matt. You know what time it is, right? It's time for What's Up on Planetary Radio. Here is the chief scientist of the Planetary Society,

Dr. Bruce Betts. And I have bad news that I have to share. What? I'm so scared. It's Mark Raymond. He brazenly ignored our ban on him entering the contest question that we're going to answer today. I don't know what to do. I just don't know what to do. Huh.

Well, we'll see the nature of the infraction and then we'll see how to deal with Mark. Well, let's move on and we'll come back to this grave, grave issue that you've raised. It's an infraction, at least. Yeah. There's a flag on the plane. Looking low in the West, we got Venus looking super bright and beautiful. And in a little while, on October 9th, it'll be joined by the crescent moon. Very close to it.

Should make a magical pairing. We've also got the reddish star Antares, the brightest star in Scorpius, to its upper left. They will get closer and closer until they're pretty darn close in mid-October. So you can look for that. And then over on the other side of the sky, well, almost, In the east, south, southeast, that really bright thing over there is Jupiter. And to its right, a yellowish, less bright thing is Saturn. So good evening skies continue. We move on to this week in space history. It was 2007 that the mission we'll talk about at the end of the show. Dawn was launched 14 years ago. And in 2014, seven years later,

both the MAVEN mission and the Mars Orbiter mission went into orbit around Mars. I'll come back to talking about Mars Orbiters too. And here is where Mark Raymond may start to redeem himself. He let me know last week that this week marks the 20th anniversary of Deep Space One, his earlier ion-propelled spacecraft taking NASA's first close-up image of a comet nucleus, Comet Borelli. Yeah. On to... Ooh, I'm on the move.

You want to take time to swallow that? Yeah. Oh, that's tasty. Speaking of tasty, let me wash that down with a standard U.S. sized soda can. And, you know, I was thinking if the volume of the earth fit inside a standard soda can, and I'm using the U.S. size 12-ounce, 355-milliliter, excuse me, the Earth could fit in was the size of that soda can, then to fit the volume of Jupiter, you'd need about two bathtubs worth of volume. And this is the kind of stuff that he talks about

when you have lunch with him, and he's got a, you know, a can of soda in his hand. It makes for a lot of fun. It's fun stuff. It's sodas and bathtubs. What more do you need? Maybe we should go on to the trivia contest. Go to RSF. Go ahead. I asked what fuel did the Dawn spacecraft use for its ion engines? And, and in kilograms, how much of that fuel did they launch with? How'd we do, Matt, besides the infraction that you'll tell us about? That'll keep everybody in suspense about. Here's our poet laureate, Dave Fairchild. Don has got the ion engines, futuristic stuff indeed.

When you travel out to Ceres, constant thrust is what you need. Backing fuel in numbered kilos, 425 to be exact. Fill her up with xenon gases, because this ship ain't coming back. Indeed, xenon, 425 kilograms. Thank you, Dave, very much. Here is our winner, and he is a first-time winner. Andrew Grimes in Colorado, who said, yeah, yeah, it was xenon and 425 kilograms of it. Amazing. Interplanetary spacecraft visiting Vesta N-series. Congratulations, Andrew. You have won yourself a hardcover copy of that brand new children's book, Leonardo's Fascinating World of Astronomy by astrophysicist Serafina Nance, illustrated by Greg Paprocki. And it's a fun little book.

It's very well designed and should be fun for kids and grownups, I would say. Here's some other stuff. We'll end with Mark Raymond. A bend drought in Iowa, one engine had a maximum thrust of 0.09 newtons. So Don's acceleration at launch mass was about 74 micrometers per second squared. Not quite the Rocinante, but still darn cool. That was translated by Matthew Eason in Virginia as, did zero to 60 miles per hour in four days. But it just kept going. Yeah.

Ian Gilroy in Australia. That's only a little slower than my first car in 1967. Vauxhall Viva HB. You don't see a lot of those on the road here in the US of A. Robert Laporta, more than 51,385 hours of thrust from those ion engines. I mean, that's the magic, right? That is. A fact about xenon from Daniel Cazard in the UK. I love xenon facts. Well, don't we all? Did you know that Xenon is also used as a general anesthetic? He says, personally, I cool it down a little bit every morning, use it for shaving.

No, I was not aware of that. Wow. Finally, this from Setupon, and I'm not going to try your last name, Setupon. I'm sorry. This, I guess we'll have to ask Mark about this. He wants to know why they left Dawn in orbit around Ceres. Maybe they could have edged it into the surface. I think it might have been a little faster than just edging up to a little tiny asteroid.

I don't know if it was planetary protection or what, but I don't know. Do you want to take a guess at that? Or I bet we can get a response from Mark. Why don't we go with Mark? Who is this Mark you speak of? Mark, Mark Raymond, you mean the chief engineer for mission operations and science at JPL, who is or was the chief engineer and mission director for Dawn, the spacecraft that we've been talking about? Yes, yes. Well, I mean, that's probably the Mark guy. That's the Mark I assumed you were talking about. That's the one. That's the one,

the Rayman. He wrote about his ban and I said, well, you can enter if you give us the number of atoms. So he did. We supplied Dawn with 1.95 times 10 to the 27th atoms of xenon before it embarked on its extraordinary extraterrestrial expedition. He says, it's so delightfully quaint that you asked for the answer in kilograms, and I could convert to kilograms if you really want, although you asked for the number in scientific notation. I'll also note that in SI units, that's 1950 yada atoms. And I imagine most planetary radio listeners would agree, And I imagine most planetary radio listeners would agree, that's a heck of a lot of yada atoms. That is. And can you imagine the person on the job to count those?

Oh, yeah. Maybe theyth anniversary of Deep Space One, but he recommended his TED Talk, TEDx Talk, that he called, If It Isn't Impossible, It Isn't Worth Trying. And it's terrific. It's really fun to watch. And we'll have the link on this week's show page at planetary.org slash radio. Wasn't that fun? That was fun.

Should we have more fun? Yeah, please. Let me give another question. What currently functioning Mars orbiter has the longest orbital period? In other words, takes the longest time to go around Mars. Go to planetary.org slash radio contest. All right. You have until Wednesday, September 29th at 8 a.m. Pacific time

to get us this answer. We're going to give away another rubber asteroid because I'm told that we still have a fair number in the box at headquarters. Yes. So that can be yours if you come up with the right answer for this one and get chosen by random.org.

We're done. All right, everybody. Go out there, look up in the night sky and think chosen by random.org. We're done. All right, everybody go out there, look up in the night sky and think about castles. Thank you. Good night. Castles in the sky. That's Bruce Betts. He's the chief scientist and the light sail program manager for the Planetary Society. And he joins us every week for What's Up. Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California and is made possible by its

space-ready members. Launch with us at planetary.org slash join. Mark Hilverda and Jason Davis are our associate producers. Josh Doyle composed our theme which is arranged and performed by Peter Schlosser. Ad Astra. theme, which is arranged and performed by Peter Schwasser at Astro.