Pod Save America - Live @ SXSW: Crooked Media and Kara Swisher

Episode Date: March 17, 2017

The Crooked Media team talks live with notoriously tough interviewer Kara Swisher about their burgeoning media empire, Trump, and how to focus the resistance.

Welcome to a special bonus episode of Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. And I'm Tommy Vitor. That was just me. That was just me. He's not here. Tommy's not here. But he's here for the episode, but not for the recording of the introduction to the bonus episode. So we were at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas on Tuesday. And we had a wonderful discussion with... Kara Swisher. Kara Swisher. Friend of the pod.

Friend of the pod. Friend of the pod. Has her own pod on Recode. And so we did a crossover. You know, there were laughs. There were some tough questions. Love it. And Kara, fast friends now. Yep, we're doing a little road show.

We hope you enjoy the episode. And here it is. So we were just sitting backstage, and we were talking about a variety of things, a podcast. And I'm so excited, coming from Silicon Silicon Valley to be able to interview white men. I'm so excited. Big switch.

Yeah, it's a big switch for me. It's usually not the sausage fest that's happening here. But let's get started into what you guys are doing. When do we come on? When do you come on? All right, here we go. We're going to start about sort of what you guys are doing. When do we come on? When do you come on? All right, here we go. We're going to start about sort of what you're doing exactly. So why don't you explain what you're doing?

Because you've created several podcasts, but you're creating a media company, essentially a left-wingy media company, correct? Yes. John, why don't you start? So we had a podcast called Keeping It 1600 before the election. You're like, all right.

Then Trump won. And we decided that we didn't just want to continue the podcast, which we may have done if Hillary had won, but we wanted to get back into the game to some extent. We'd all been in politics for a long time. And so we wanted to not only have, continue the political podcast we were doing, but expand to a network of

podcasts expand into video sort of create a progressive media company that didn't just analyze politics like we did during keep in 1600 but also um you know helped inspire activism and and organized um so we started crooked media and uh we're in the very early stages, so we have a long way to go. All right. But, yeah, we hope to be a progressive media company that informs, entertains, and inspires action. So progressive media companies have had not the best history. I'm thinking Air America, and we got Rachel Maddow and Al Franken, yay, and others out of that. But it wasn't a successful effort. Same thing with Current,

other things. How do you guys look at this idea of it? What are you thinking? Oh, first, I don't compare myself to those things. All right. Well, good idea. Yeah, I mean, look, I don't think we're approaching this thing like how do we build a successful progressive company?

I think we're starting from a simple idea of we want to have this no bullshit conversation about politics. It's resonated with people. There's a huge appetite for a different kind of conversation that, you know, look, we're figuring this out as we go, right? We decided to launch and build it as we go because we just wanted to start talking. We want to be part of this conversation. But one thing that is for certain is that there are tens of millions of people who are deeply unsatisfied with the way they get their political news i mean the way that we were thinking about it is that like you turn on cable news and there's like a ton of great journalists but what you end

up watching is world-class journalists interviewing morons and like that's not a sustainable system it is not a sustainable system we all fucking hate the news we turn it on it makes us feel bad the content is pretty bad the way it's delivered is worse and you know 2016 what they're laughing at me already no we got loose really fast by the way guys start going that means everybody whose flights were canceled thank you for being here um uh you're part of our key demographic. People stuck at the airport. Right. A group of people with which we're competing with CNN. Right. What was the question?

So we're going to do that. Basically, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, yeah. So look, we're starting with... Good question. You know, we started with this podcast. It resonated with a lot of people. We're going to try to figure out ways to bring that kind of a voice, a younger, more authentic

voice. You know, all these different news outlets are all struggling with how to reach people, and so many seem to have settled on having a serious voice of authority with none of the actual authority behind it. And we just want to sound like ourselves. We want to

bring people who know something about politics, who have something to say, who care about these issues, and aren't going to be part of a stilted, dead-language conversation that we're all very sick of. I'm not sure if it was authoritative. It's screamy. It's just pretty much screaming. Yes. For sure. That's also bad. So, Tommy, you guys were at

Bill Simmons, the ringer and stuff, and that's where you got started with Keeping It 1600. Why did you leave? Because that's a, you know, that that's what he's doing. So not,

why not be part of that particular media organization? Sure. I mean, there's a couple of reasons. One is, you know, I think that if, if Hillary had won,

we probably would have kept doing this as a hobby. But when she lost, I think we all had this existential crisis that if you watch the live stream, you saw happen in real time where we figured like you know we have to it didn't feel right to wake up every day and like obsess about politics and what's happening in the country and then go to work doing something else for me i needed to marry those two things up and make that my job in my life never watch that live stream but no it's great watch us break down it's really sad yeah really sad so i think like what the ringer is doing is great,

but it's, like, sports and culture and news. We're trying to make something that's, like, very progressive and very activist. And on another end, like, we're dedicating our lives to this. Like, I'm moving down to L.A. We're starting an office. We're hiring a team. Like, we want to own and have the flexibility of creating all the content and making all the decisions.

But you were the big hit on that, correct? You were the big hit on The Ringer, correct? Those are your words. Yes. No, I mean, I've been reading Bill Simmons for a decade. His stuff is great and it always will be great. The ringer is going to be fine. Were they sharing revenue with you?

I understand they were not sharing revenue with you. They were paying us dollars. Okay, but enough dollars? They were paying us. Do you want us to get the contract out? Yes, please. That would be great. They were paying us enough for what was a part-time hobby. A part-time thing. But you guys wanted to start your own thing. We wanted to do a full-time thing.

And I said to Bill right after the election, we want to start our own thing because we want to not just be partisan, but also activist. And I don't think you want all this activism under the banner of The Ringer, which also does sports and tech and stuff. And he's like, yeah, I totally understand. And I don't think you want all this activism under the banner of the ringer, which also does sports and tech and stuff. And he's like, yeah, I totally understand.

We want to do stuff with this company that will have a political benefit that might not have any financial benefit. And I think explaining that to someone, if you're part of a broader organization, would be difficult. I think we can have that flexibility doing it. But you want to build a business, correct? I mean, that's what you're going for. And you're one of the top ones on iTunes. I mean, I'm in the podcast business.

You can make some money. You can actually make some real money at it. So are you raising money right now? We're not. I don't think we need to. Not raising money? Nope. How are you going to, you're just, how are you going to pay? We're not going to pay ourselves any money, but we're going to use the revenue from ads to invest in the business and try to hire a great team and get an office. So you're not going sort of the startup route creating that kind of... Well, I just feel like the podcast is like our seed money. Right. I don't know the venture fund

terms. The vultures are emailing us and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what a seed round is. Seed. I want nothing to do with it. You guys are way, way too eager. Right, right, right, right. We don't need you people. We're making money hand over fist. Right, yeah. There it is.

Which is very against the start. People say that making money in the content media game is hard, and that is just not my experience. It is, I agree with you. I agree with you. It's honestly like a joke. It's super confusing,

because everyone's like, oh, how are you going to monetize? It's easy. Just start talking, and the money rolls in. Don't tell them. I don't know what other people are doing. Yeah, yeah, oh, how are you going to monetize? It's easy. Just start talking and the money rolls in. Don't tell them. I don't know what other people are doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So clearly we're not raising money. Okay, all right, good. Because you're not very good at it. I mean, you can give us money. It's going to be a terrible valuation for you. Yeah, yeah. What is your valuation, John? Obviously for you, priceless in your head.

But yeah, what is it? I mean, I'm going to have to say it. Guys, billion dollar business, hub of the resistance. What do you want? So let's talk about the resistance. People say you're a very tough interviewer. I don't. Do you find that?

John, I do find that. I do find it. But I really do enjoy... You know, it's easier when I have to interview egomaniacs. Yes. Yes. There she is. That was great.

That was great. There she is. Oh, I feel so good about that. That was really good. You know I made Mark Zuckerberg sweat and almost faint. Really? Yeah. And the only reason I stopped is because I thought he would fall on the ground, that I'd have to

do CPR, and then that picture would go down. And you just don't want that to happen. I didn't want any lip action with Mark Zuckerberg. Dear Max. You won't believe what happened with Cara today. I'm trying to build a world where that doesn't happen again. In any case, let's

get to Trump, speaking of making that inappropriate. Speaking of egomaniacs. So of egomaniacs um so trump even though you know you guys i did watch you on election night where you were weeping copiously um and um in real time uh one could say trump has been very very good to you at this point because it's a really good time it feels like that with us and our site and a lot of media people are suddenly activated. And I hate to use that word, but it does feel like that. I mean, the other day, George Stephanopoulos actually got angry, and I didn't know what to do with myself. Wow, you're asking a real question that needs an answer rather than softer stuff. So talk about what you feel the opportunity is now

with the resistance, when you talk about the resistance. I mean, I would easily trade the podcast and everything we're doing for Trump not being president right now. All right, okay. But look, no, I think he's, I don't think there's too many silver linings of this election,

but what we have at least seen over the last couple months is that it has spurned a level of activism and engagement and interest in politics that I haven't seen since the early days of 07 and 08 when Obama started running. And even then, you know, because this is people who, we are talking to people and people are coming up to us that have never paid attention to politics before or have just sort of casually paid attention to politics before. And now they're saying, I'm scared. I want to know what to do. I want to fix it. What should I do? Where should I go? And you're seeing these people show up at town halls and you're seeing them show up at rallies and you're seeing them march. And so if that movement can come out of this and we can survive the Trump presidency and people can be engaged, you know that's a very good thing for democracy and how and how do you feel about that

I think that's right I you know this is we're in the middle of a national crisis there's a lot of people who are scared and worried and are either people who've paid attention to politics and have never been more engaged or the kind of person that wasn't paying attention either way they're showing up at protests they're showing showing up at airports. They're trying to figure this out. And there's so much coming at us. There's so much crazy stories. And it's so hard to figure out what to trust. It's so hard to know. So often you turn on the news and there's so little sense of history. So you have to find out like, wait, is what Trump's doing today, is this normal? Does this just seem bad? Firing US attorneys, is that

something that happens every time? Well, yes. Did they do it the normal way? No. It's kind of weird. It's kind of not weird. And there's so much coming at us. There's so much to parse. If we can play some small role in saying, hey, look, we've been there. We've worked in politics. We can get the people that we trust that are really smart to help us figure this out. That's a role I'm proud to be a part of. And it'll be a small part of that, and bring on people who can say, here's what you can do. I know you want to help.

I know you've never done that before. I know you've never been to a protest before. You've never been to a town hall before. This is a great group, Indivisible. We're talking to them because they're new, and they're trying to figure this out. You should go to their website. Go be a part of what they're doing.

So when you're thinking about this, Tommy, when it comes to the concept around getting people activated and getting people doing things, a lot of comparison made to the Tea Party, sort of the left Tea Party. Do you see that? Do you imagine that? Because they're super effective. They were very effective. They were very organized. I think they're tactics that you can borrow in terms of organizing, in terms of being present,

in terms of just remembering how easy it is as citizens and constituents to scare the shit out of Congress. Because that pressure works, and it works fast, and it came quickly, as we're seeing on ACA repeal. I think we are part of a group of organizations that is riding a wave of interest in Trump. And we approach this business with some humility because we're aware of that.

But I think what Lovett was saying earlier, like, A, there's a cathartic effect to, like, when everyone around you, you're watching this thing happen and you feel like it's crazy. And you're like, do you guys see this too? I think hearing people who worked in the White House and done what we did, like, is a helpful reminder

that, no, you're not crazy. Like, what's happening is, and we're part of that. So do you feel, now, you all worked in the Obama administration. Do you feel like you're utter failures of what's happened? That never occurred to me. Because a lot of ways, like, I want to get to the idea of, like, every morning things change and stuff like that. But this is a reaction in a way, and it is a failure in some fashion.

Listen, I'm going to be, like like the reflexive, defensive Obama guy, and it's encoded in my DNA, and I can't fix that. But I do think elections are unique events that are about one individual versus another individual. I don't think you can blame everything on a predecessor in any election. We should thank God that Trump took office with relative peace and prosperity and not in the middle of a crisis like when Obama took office, because God help us if we're in the middle of a crisis right now and Trump took over. I mean, like,

I think Obama accomplished quite a bit in two terms. What do you attribute the reaction to? Because even if you can say Hillary's the worst candidate or she wasn't like, whatever the fuck you want to say about Hillary in that part, it got really way too close given eight years. It got way too close, no matter who was the candidate. For sure, yes. Little things had to go wrong for Donald Trump to become president. Comey, emails, all that stuff. But big things did make Trump possible. Big cultural, political, economic forces opened the door to someone like Trump. You know, Barack Obama took office in the middle of a massive financial crisis. He was handed a really, a bunch of messes all around the world and at home. You know, we spent the eight years doing a lot of good work

from, you know, rebuilding the economy, the stimulus, getting into healthcare, Wall Street, all the different things that amount to an incredibly successful legislative and administrative period of time. That being said, like, didn't solve every problem in the world. And there are long, long-term trends that are really difficult to address. You know, one of the things that we talked about, we talked to Seth Moulton yesterday. And, you know, we asked him sort of like, you know, look, there's this anger, there's this angst about the economy. You know, who do you see talking about the new economic vision? What should Democrats be saying? And the thing that he said, which I

actually find, I actually think it's a little bit inspiring. Like we're figuring that out now, you know, that, that, that if this election does one thing, it shows us that like, when the, the center left, the center us that when the center-left, the center-right, when they're not offering answers, it opens the doors to monsters. And that's what's happened here. One other interesting thing. Yeah.

One in five Trump voters gave Obama a positive approval rating, job performance, when they went to the polls. Sure. So this was, there was a, I mean, it is very, first of all, when you've been in office for eight years, right, there is a feeling of people want change, right? And at the end of the day, if you had a positive image of Hillary Clinton, you voted for her. If you had a positive image of Trump, you voted for him. If you didn't like either candidate, which was about 20% of

voters, they voted for Trump by about 17 points because he was the outsider that they didn't like versus what Hillary Clinton was, which is the insider they didn't like. And so there's a lot of complicating factors, but in the end it's that simple. It ended up being a change of life. Just a change thing. I think it was much more dramatic than that. It was things people didn't see. True, but for the casual observer.

I'm saying a lot of people who go to the polls at the end of the day do not pay attention to politics as closely as we all pay attention to politics because they're busy, they lead busy lives, and so they sort of look at it from afar. And when you squint and look at the whole thing from afar, you say, he's sort of crazy, but he's an outsider, so maybe he can bring change. I don't know if I like her, but she's been there forever, so I'll give him a chance. And that tipped the election because it was that close. But I think it is really important for Democrats, for liberals,

to ask what weren't they getting, right? What did they want to be different? Like, what are the economic policies that we're either not describing well or not offering? And I think that's a conversation that's ongoing. It's a really important thing. You know, right now, really much, really Democrats feel united because we're united against a terrible foe.

But as we move forward, it's going to become more and more important for us to have a positive vision. What? Terrible foe. Terrible foe. What do you want? A great and historic villain. Evil rises in the East. I don't know what else to say.

Hey, don't go anywhere. This is Pod Save America, and there's more on the way. It's rather easy to play against Trump as the villain. What fresh hell has he done today? Right, yeah. Essentially, like, ah, the other day I was saying to someone, I went to the shower and he did something while I was in the shower. I'm like, fuck, I missed the episode.

That's exactly right. I think he fired Sally Yates. I was like, ah, how missed the episode. That's exactly right. I think he fired Sally Yates. I was like, ah, how did he do that so quickly? But you can't always be against. The villain is always the appealing character. You think about just drama. You all live in San Francisco, but Los Angeles. It's easy to have an appealing villain, essentially,

which is, I think, what this has been turned into. It's another thing to have a message. And one of the things that I think was problematic for the Clinton campaign is a lot of people, both on the Coastal Elites, really did make fun of Make America Great Again. I thought it was a great slogan. I thought, wow, that is a really good, it's a really good slogan. It makes, it's very appealing, makes you feel good and bad at the same time. It makes you feel like you want to do something. And then when I saw Stronger Together, it felt like a glue commercial to me. I was like, oh,

okay, we're stronger together. It didn't get you. What is the message for the Democratic Party? And then I want to get into all Trump all the time. How do you guys cover this? What do you think about how he's doing and stuff like that? Where is the message? Because you all were stuff like that? Where is the message? Because you all were involved in messaging.

What is the message? This is the nature of politics, that for the last eight years, the message of the Republican Party was Obama sucks and we're not Obama. And that led them to victory in the House, the Senate, and the presidency. It did. Now, I do not agree that we should just do the same thing and for the next eight years and say we're not trump we're not trump because i do think you need a positive message right i think what was tough what was tough for hillary and was tough for that campaign

is just what you were saying which is you go out there you give a big speech on the jobs in the economy and then suddenly the access hollywood tape comes out right and the next day she can't go do another event on Jobs and the Economy because no one's covering that because Trump just said this crazy thing, right? And so everyone, the Clinton campaign excluded, kept getting sucked into the vortex of Trump, right? And so I think as we look to 2018 and 2020, there is going to be a temptation because Trump is going to continue to do crazy things and tweet crazy things every single day to just make your message every day about what he did. Right. But what you have to do is talk about jobs, the economy, health care, and your positive vision for all of this.

There's a broader problem here, which is if you look at the research of how people and parties define themselves for the first time in history, Democrats are more defined by being opposed to the other than anything they stand for. And I think we need to do a lot of work figuring that out again. So what do they stand for? Because I don't know what the point is. It's an ongoing message challenge. I mean, economic equality, health care, civil rights. I mean, these are the, like, stringing these together into a core message is something that I don't think happened sufficiently the last round. What do you think they stand for?

Well, I think, first of all, this is one of the lessons, you know, Kellyanne Conway, uh, who I'm obviously a huge fan of, um, love, love her work. Uh, especially her, her, you know, I'm a more fan of her early work. Um, I don't like the recent stuff, uh, but no, but, but, uh, uh, uh, she said this thing and it actually, to me is still the smartest thing anyone simply said about the election, which is there's a difference between what offends you and what affects you. And that's something I think Bernie Sanders understood. I think that's something we instinctively understood, but it was really hard to cut through with all the Trump nonsense, which is, you know, stronger together, love Trump's hate. These are about kind of values and how things feel and how things look.

And we needed to make that next step, and we need to make that next step into, you know, it's not just that Trump is conducting business at Mar-a-Lago, you know, and being bribed to do it. It's that that's going to hurt you. It's going to affect the decisions he makes. And I think coming back to, on the one hand, like how Trump's policies actually hurt people and not get dragged into the vortex of his bullshit is going to be really hard. And then the other side, I think we're not going to have the answer here today. What's the Democratic message? Democrats have lost elections up and down the board. We have to figure it out. It's a really hard problem. I also think you can't start from the question of what's the message, what's the slogan. You have to answer the big question. And the big question

right now is that we still, that neither party has answered, is how in a global economy do we live together and thrive together and make sure that everyone has a chance to succeed? And where is the next generation of jobs going to come from? And as we become a more diverse nation, how do we make sure that we can live together and, you know, not always demonize each other, right? And so there's questions of where opportunity comes from, where's prosperity comes from, how do we ensure some basic level of decency and equality in the society? And once we come up with those answers, then you can sort of tell a story that leads to a slogan, that leads to a message, right? Like, make America great again only worked because there was actually the,

he told the whole story that went with that slogan, right? Yeah, absolutely. It was a story that we didn't agree with, and I think it's a story that's in many ways wrong, because he mischaracterizes where the country is, but there was a story to fit it, right? What was interesting was the reaction, though, to that, which I found interesting. It's like, it is great.

It's like, that's not really a reaction. It's great. It's really great. You know what I mean? It seems sort of like the irritating person at school. You know what I mean? Like, but you're wrong. But you're wrong. And I think a lot of the left spends a lot of time being righteously indignant. Like, I can't believe he said that. And about the 40th time, you're like,

he fucking said it. Like, he said it, again he said it again well look i think i think you can make an argument why make why america is great i think you should certainly make that argument but you have to flesh out that argument but then you're arguing you can't just make fun of it you also can't make fun of it and you're arguing you're on his agenda almost consistently right almost consistently all democrats do is react that's the story of the entire election yeah it's like, what? I can't believe you said that. I'm like, you said it.

Yeah. I feel like on the far right, they have this sort of vicious anger and hate. And on the left, we have our version, which is just incredibly annoying sanctimony. Yeah. And like, high alert for sanctimony. Right, right. All over Twitter. I don't know if you've noticed.

Yeah, so yeah, I've noticed. Now it's getting funny, actually. It's getting funny, which is what you guys are using. Dear sir. Dear sir. How dare you which is what you guys are dear sir dear sir how dare you no sir that is not what america represents like how many more elections are we going to lose like this well it probably has so many tweets like this world-class hypocrite um so what i'm going to get to trump does it but what so what democrats do have one sense of humor are just gonna pile through which ones do you see what how do you look at the people looking at you this is like the um you like what like who we who do you like

who do you like comal harris elizabeth warren seth moulton who we talked to yesterday jason kander jason kander i mean there's and that's's not a... There's a lot of great people out there that we're not going to... What do you like about them? So I'm big on people who talk like... The only one that doesn't feel like a non-carbonated beverage is Elizabeth Warren.

Yeah, well, so I'm very big on... You call them non-carbonated, but you're like, eh. Oh, you mean like they're not bubbly? Yeah. Right. Something. Okay.

You know. Let it go, love it. Let it go. Effervescent. I'm not... I don't understand it. I'm not... I've just... It's non-carbonated. I get it. love it I want to understand it It's non-carbonated I get it, I'm now getting it

They're not not carbonated Right, right, right Go on How do you guys think this is going? I am very big on politicians Who talk like normal human beings Like what? And I think

Some of the people we just mentioned, we had Congressman Seth Moulton on yesterday and he spoke like we're speaking right now. He did not do the talking points. Here's my America. Like he just didn't do any of that stuff, right? And Jason's like that. And Elizabeth Warren is certainly like that.

Kamala Harris is like that. You know, so I think there is a good group of Democrats. But I think sometimes as Democrats, we think about like resume and where you're from and who's the perfect person on paper and all that stuff. I think that's a mistake. I think you just need to, like, I always say that after the 2004 election, when John Kerry lost because everyone said he was too elitist and aloof and all that kind of stuff,

everyone said, well, we lost the white working class, and so the answer is someone that has to connect with the white working class. We need a southerner. We need a populist, right? If you had told someone after the 2004 election that the answer to the democratic party's white working class problem was a black guy from the south side of chicago named barack hussein obama they would have told you you were fucking crazy but like four years later he was president and the same thing with trump and the same thing with trump and exactly and so people like barack obama and donald trump and bernie sanders and michelle obama who

all come from very different backgrounds what they've all had in common is when they speak and communicate, they're very comfortable in their own skin, right? They are not, they don't speak in a lot of bullshit. And so I think that's important as we're looking. And look, I think the person who wins in 2020, wins the Democratic nomination, we might not have, we might have any idea who that is yet, especially in this kind of world. But as we're looking for leaders who rise, I'm looking for people who talk like normal human beings talk. All right. What do you guys think?

I mean, I think John sort of articulated our belief as a show here. But I agree that, you know, I worked for John Edwards in 2004. And that was the perfect example of like a resume based candidate, right? Like a good looking southern guy that could appeal to X, Y, Z state. And that's, if you think like that, you wind up with like an Evan Bayer or John Edwards. It's just not going to connect with people. Oh, I think he got real interesting quick. And if he had pushed that other stuff first, I would have been like, I'm down with you.

Yeah. I mean, the, the, the O4 race, uh, that was pre all the worst stuff. Okay. Man, John Edwards, huh? That took a turn. Who do you like? I mean, look, we talk about this all the time. I think we agree on this.

Yeah. I like our list. Do you like any of the tech leaders or business leaders? Do you feel like President Mark Zuckerberg is a good idea? You know what? Let's talk about that for a second. All right. Here's the thing.

I don't know what's going on over there, but Mark Zuckerberg has a great story tell. He built a pretty impressive company, and I don't understand why he sounds like a senator in his fourth term. Just talk, man. Don't be so afraid. Trump is president. Say whatever you want. Right. Anyone can say whatever they want.

I worry that people are going to take from this, oh, if that billionaire celebrity outside of politics can run for president, so can I. They all are saying it. They all are saying that. But like, it's about the personality. It's not about the resume. And like, if there is a tech leader who goes out there and just, you know, has a no bullshit conversation with the American people about what we need to do

then yeah, maybe they have a shot. The Zuckerberg thing is like they are so cautious the statements are cautious everything is calculated. It sounds so Washington right now. Maybe it'll change. Maybe his listening tour will change. They were talking about immigration

and they put out such a overworked you know and they were talking about immigration, and they put out such a overworked, you know, and they have good people, but somehow it comes from the top, and you end up with something so overworked and so precious, and that doesn't say anything. It's like, what are you doing here? Trump is president.

You've got to say things. Right. Well, it's very hard to get them to, which is really amazing. The other thing, though, is, like, I also worry that there's this sense where you can apply tech to any problem, and that's how we're going to solve it. If I hear someone say that we're going to hack the refugee crisis, I'm going to lose my fucking mind. These are very complicated problems involving human beings and governments and moral questions.

It's not that easy. So that sort of feeling is... Well, they kind of got in their head tandem around the fake news stuff or hoaxes. I'm using the term hoaxes because the fake news word has gotten so bad. That's good. Hoaxes. They're just hoaxes. And I think one of the things that's been hard is that the response of, you know, Mark, as usual, initially started like, we have no impact on anything.

Like, I don't know what you're talking. We're a benign platform. And it's sort of that, you know, guns don't kill people. People kill people kind of attitude. And I'm like, actually,'re talking about. We're a benign platform. And it's sort of that, you know, guns don't kill people, people kill people kind of attitude. And I'm like, actually, bullets kill people, but technically. But which you make. Fake news kills people. Sort of. Like it doesn't.

But it was interesting, this shift of we're just benign platforms and we're here to help the world versus you have consequences to your actions. And I think they're starting, the penny is starting to drop. And Mark did mark did start with the 6 000 word essay which could have used a lot of editing um but um but in that zone like okay maybe possibly we have an impact and so right this is like are we we're not a media company we're well you're something new and kind of both and you have a really important role to play and you can't pretend you don't yeah so let's talk about trump You're kind of both, and you have a really important role to play, and you can't pretend you don't. Yeah. So let's talk about Trump. Sure.

Trump, Trump, Trump, because we love talking about him. Love it. How do you guys feel about Obamacare and the repeal and Trumpcare, Obamacare lite? How are you looking at that? Seems to be going swimmingly. No, I think what's happening right now is Republicans and Donald Trump are reckoning with the fact that they told their base lies about Obamacare for the last eight years. And now they're the dogs who caught the car. And the Congressional Budget Office, which is a bunch of nonpartisan nerds who crunch numbers, came out yesterday and said that it would leave 24 million people uninsured. And it also said that it'll raise premiums and then premiums will finally start to come down in 2026.

But only because older people won't be able to afford health insurance. And so because the older, sicker people are uninsured, then premiums might come down for other people. After they die. So basically, like, the plan is, like, if you're, like, in your retiree and you don't want to go bankrupt before you get Medicare, like, wrap yourself in some, like, bubble wrap. Stay very calm. Try try not eat healthy but but the problem is race they so they tried to make obamacare this oh it's a government takeover it's socialized medicine death panels all these hoaxes conspiracy theories and the truth is that obamacare was a rather conservative version of universal health care.

Borrowed ideas from Mitt Romney, from the Heritage Foundation, individual mandate, all of these policies that people on the right had been talking about for years. And so because they branded it as this government takeover thing, even though it really wasn't, now that they're trying to fix it, there's nowhere further to go on the right except to say the government doesn't have any responsibility to insure people. And their base, like Donald Trump is not president because a lot of people wanted to lose their health care. That's not why. In fact, when he ran for president, he promised he wouldn't cut Medicaid. That promise is already broken with this bill. He promised he would cover everyone. He had insurance. That promise is already broken. And he's been very successful in lying to people and gaslighting people and stuff, but once people start to get these cancellation notices, if this passes,

or once people realize that they can't afford to get their health care anymore, like, he's not going to be able to lie his way through that. That's going to be felt. So what do you imagine is going to happen now? I mean, the media's been super aggressive on it, but every time the media does this, then it, oh, he wins, that kind of thing.

It is, in that way, it is like a game changer. Well, he's never been president before. Right, right. And this is the first thing he's tried to pass. Right. Remember, everything else up until now has been executive orders. This is the first thing he's actually tried to pass through Congress since he's been president. I mean, it's interesting.

We'll see if he commits to this, right? Because every once in a while he gets up there and he's like, I tell Paul Ryan and the gang that we should just let it all crash and burn for two years and get the political consequences, the benefits. But that's not right. So let's push this bill. As he reads coverage of how bad this bill is, as he sees Republicans start peeling off, I wonder if he'll stay committed to pushing this through. Because I don't know that it's not clear to me what the constituency is for what they're trying to do. Besides Paul Ryan's stupid PowerPoint and his better way nonsense i mean yeah so so first of all you saw bright even bright

bar today is kind of turning on the bill yeah um that was interesting they published the paul ryan yeah so i don't know what's going on they're playing it's like i don't know it's a bunch of idiots playing chess i'm not really sure what's going on over there like it's like we were playing chess but we don't really know the rules. But I also don't know the rules. Gotcha. Well, they're turning on each other. Maybe, right? Yes.

Who knows? You see Republicans in the Senate say this bill can never pass. Tom Cotton in the Senate says, why would the Republicans walk the plank on this bill? It can never pass the Senate. There's the Venn diagram of the bill needs to be evil enough to pass the House and bad enough and give enough tax cuts to the rich and restrict the subsidies enough to pass the House. But then it also needs to be reasonable enough

and moderate enough to get through the Senate. There may not be an overlap there. The numbers are three and 22. The Republicans, if they lose 22 House members, they can't pass in the House. If they lose three senators, they can't pass in the Senate. So you could imagine maybe Paul Ryan getting enough Republican congressmen to vote for the bill, either the way it is now by Trump browbeating them or by making it, like Levitt said,

even further to right. But even if that happens, there's now eight Republican senators who've gone on record in the Senate having problems with the bill, right? And they can only lose three. So it's tough. But I do think is this, I mean, this happened during the campaign, like it all looks messy from the outside right now and we can all laugh at it, but like we have to be part of this fight if we want to stop it. This is the most winnable and consequential fight yet of this presidency. And every single person has to stand up and speak out for it because that's the only way we're going to stop it. But do you imagine something where we think we got him and then he gets out again? Like he somehow.

A couple times. It's not Breaking Bad. I mean, maybe. I mean, like, I don't know. So we have to fight it. It's really hard to pass legislation. We're protected by the institutions of our government still. But, you know, is there a chance we think we have them in our grasp and he slips through our fingers? Yeah, sure.

And then, you know, we'll, I don't know. Well, look, there's also, if nothing passes, the Trump administration would need to shore up some of these markets where some of these insurers have been leaving. Anyway, we're leaving the last year of the Obama administration, which is a very fixable thing. You just, you know, you provide some more subsidies. You make sure that people buy health insurance with the mandate so you can make it work. They can decide if nothing passes, we're going to let it not fail, but we're going to make sure it doesn't work and then try to blame the Democrats. So like that very well could happen. It could happen. So you feel it's going to fail at this point? At this point, it doesn't look too good. But I, like I said, I think it's

up to you. We're out of the prediction business. It didn't do so well on that. Hillary is absolutely going to win. It's up to us. Wire tapping. How do you feel about it? Not for it. What part of that? Well, Tommy's the one who put on a pair of overalls and a black hat.

Went into Trump Tower. Opened that microwave door got in there with the wires tommy sees it all it's a lot of ice cream it's a lot of ice cream and yelling at the tv frankly i don't know what people are so worked up about um what uh what do you think about why do you what do you i mean the the broader story i think of Trump's crazy wiretapping tweet is something we've been watching for a while, which is he consumes not media, but conspiracy theories.

Whether it's Breitbart or some random guy who tweets that 3 million people voted illegally in California, and then he regurgitates it to the masses, right? So I don't think he understands what a FISA court is. I don't think he understands what wiretapping really means. There may be, it may be the case that there was some collection of information regarding contact from a server to the Russian bank. Like that's something we're reading about, but the president of the United States cannot order the wiretapping of an American citizen, period. That's because of reforms after Nixon, because he did that against his political opponents. To just

blithely accuse, to just wake up Saturday morning pissed off at the world and tweet that the former President of the United States wiretapped you is so monumentally insane you have to stop for a minute. Where do you think it's coming from? Because a lot of people do think it's all calculated. I mean, I think his father wasn't very loving.

And I think he has a child on his shoulder about that. Not enough hugging his children. I think he struggles with a lack of self-worth, so he inflates his own sense of ego. But at the end of the day, he hates himself the most. And so there's no amount of attention and praise that can fix that problem. And it's sort of

a vicious circle. So he gets angry. Thank you. Okay, that was good that that that this is a softball i was like here it comes i was waiting for self-hating homosexual in there and i was like let's go there no no i don't like myself but i love being gay okay i mean i think he has advisors around him like steve bannonannon who is feeding him this bullshit. And the most frustrating part of this is he controls the entire intelligence apparatus of the United States. He has the coolest job in the world. He could ask for any piece of information at any time whenever he wanted it.

He doesn't do that because he's not intellectually curious. The answer is out there. You can find the answer. Who killed JFK? What's happening at Area 51? The moon landing.. You can find the answer. Who killed JFK? The best thing they said, yeah, like, the moon landing. What's happening at Area 51? The moon landing. Did it actually happen? No.

Who killed the, you know, the idea that they're like, okay, to prove this claim, we're going to ask Congress to investigate the executive branch.

Who runs the executive branch? Today, they're blaming it on, they're like, oh, it was air quotes. Tap. Yeah.

Are you, what did you think about that, the reaction? Why don't they just stop talking? That's the most important thing, too. Donald Trump is going to do what Donald Trump is. He's in a new and strange house, but he's behaving in the exact same way. He's just going through the motions.

What is so dispiriting, what's so heartbreaking, what's so enraging, what makes this so painful is he now is A, defended by people who know better on the Hill who have refused to hold him accountable. And he has people around him, people like Sean Spicer, Kellyanne Conway, Reince Priebus, who have given up any semblance of their integrity to create an, to create a way to make Trump not look bad. So like Sean Spicer says, we're going to release a statement. We're going to get Congress to investigate. That is all just

a way to deal with the fact that the president is a jackass and lying and horrible. And they know it and they're selling their souls to defend him. And why? I don't know. Ambition. Right. Not thinking it through. Fear. Fear. Fear of the, these people make decisions because their base is all worked up or they think that the Republican base is all worked up because they are, you know, incited every day by the Sean Hannity's of the world and the Breitbart's. And so these people get spun up and then the politicians are like, well, we can't go against the base because then we'll be attacked by Breitbart. It's all fear of losing their job. And we were talking about this a little backstage. I mean, you see all these tech companies sort of dipping their toe and being a part of advisory panels. I think that's an

incredibly bad idea. Because I think if you put your lot in with Donald Trump, you're going to own a lot of the shit he does, even if you think you can distance yourself from that specific thing. We're all in Trump University now. We want our money back. You learning a lot? You like your teachers? There is a feeling, though, that it's part of a bigger master plan, that it's all the chaos and mania is all manufactured. Nationalism is not that hard. It's not that hard to incite people against another. And it's also, I mean, this is the heart of what Democrats have,

the challenge Democrats have all the time, is we believe believe in governing and governance and, you know, trying to find middle ground. Steve Bannon's stated purpose is he's a Leninist and he wants to burn the thing down. So maybe that's the master plan. I'm not ascribing a lot of brain wattage behind sort of the daily execution of that plan, but, you know, they have all the levers of government, so they should be able to do that. That is the exact point. It is so much easier to burn down a barn than to make people believe that government can work for them. That is the harder challenge. And so no matter what happens, we will always have the more difficult challenge. Because government screws up a lot of times.

And it leaves people behind. And so it's not perfect. And for Bannon and for Trump, it's not genius to say, all your problems, you can blame it on this person that doesn't look like you, or you can blame it on politicians, or you can blame it on that. That is super easy to do. And that's why Barack Obama, maybe the maddest he ever was, was when healthcare.gov didn't work. Because he had been trying to talk about, like on the campaign in 07-08,

he would talk about making government cool again. Because all politicians run it down and criticize it, and rightly so in a lot of instances. But there's some basic competence and some basic need there for a lot of people. And when that didn't work, that infuriated him because it undercut the faith in the thing we're trying to build. Absolutely. It was astonishing. It was astonishing that Tinder works every day

and they couldn't get a website to work. I actually said that on Meet the Press. It was like a group of white guys and me on Meet the Press. Sounds was like a group of white guys and me on Meet the Press. Sounds familiar. Which was very exciting for me. And I said, you know, Tinder works every day. And they're like, are you comparing, you know, healthcare to Tinder? I go, no, Tinder works. You can get fucked easily.

David Ergen over to you. I think it was one of those guys. They all look the same to me. This is Pod Save America. Stick around. There's more great show coming your way. When you think about this administration, so do you...

Are you scared or are you just like, what a fucking goat rodeo this is? Both. I'm scared sometimes. Why is that? It seems like it's out of control. I don't think of it that way. Because right now the world is a relatively stable place right now. At least the United States is. And I am very worried. I mean, it's all fun and games now. We can make fun of them for wiretapping and all this other kind of these crazy conspiracy theories. But when a crisis hits, I don't know

how he's going to react, but I don't think it's going to be well. And so that sort of keeps, that's what keeps me up. I mean, I was on the national security staff. I was a low level two bit spokesman, but I sat in a lot of meetings where I saw very serious people making decisions. And so I understand that like the work that you have to do to like manage in North Korea is ongoing and constant and it requires pushing the government and bringing them together and working these problems every day. I have no sense that that's happening. You add to what John said, like when Barack Obama, when Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tried to blow up a plane over Detroit or, you know, when any of the various sort of crises hit, whether it was a domestic shooting or a terrorist attack. He first and foremost viewed his role as sort of talking about the resilience of the United States and like bringing people down and making sure there wasn't hysteria and, you know, turning on each other. I do not think that will be Donald Trump's instinct.

I do not think that will be Steve Bannon's instinct. I think they will see a political opportunity. Also, when Obama walked into office, there was this economic crisis, right? No one wanted to take a vote for the financial bailout. No one wanted to take a vote for the auto bailout. But Obama, Democrats, and some Republicans came together to do that, knowing that it was going to be unpopular because they knew that if they did not do that, the economy would have collapsed, and the

global economy could have collapsed with it. That took some political courage. I could not see this Congress and this President taking those same steps. Are there any Republicans? John, which ones do you like? I think Ben Sasse is really interesting and has had some integrity.

Justin Amash. Yeah, I mean, man, some people that I would not expect to like. It's not that hard. It's like, are you... You know, so Seth Moulton, right? Democrat. We had him on the show yesterday, and he was saying that he goes to the house gym and he works out with a bunch of Republicans. And when they're in the gym and they're

talking, they all know how crazy Donald Trump is. They all know what he's doing is wrong. And then they put their suits on and they go out to the podium and they lie. And it's not that hard to show integrity in this moment. And there are very few who have done it. Right. I mean, John McCain has been running the Maverick play longer than like Stockton Malone ran the pick and roll, right? Like every time the reporter is like, oh my God, you spoke out. So, I mean, I do think there's some value in what they're saying. I'd love to see them like push a little harder here. Right. Because him and Lindsey Graham have an act going.

They have an act and they have a shtick and it works very well. Statler and Waldorf. What did you say? Statler and Waldorf from the Muppets. I hate this. I've been impressed with there's a lot of political operatives

that are Republicans who have spoken out and decided this is not going to be my, whether it's Nicole Waller, Tim Miller, or Stuart Stevens, or Mike Murphy, a lot of these folks who were Romney people, Bush people. So, but it's funny, when you get to elected office, and you actually, you see fewer, you don't see as much of that. You see a lot more Marco Rubio. I want to finish up on the media itself. And then we'll get to some questions. We have a whole bunch of questions, just one or two minutes on that. How do you look at how the media has

performed here in general the general and there's lots of different there's print media there's but it's all pretty much the same how do you look about how it happened because a year and a half ago i was meeting with some there i was at a party and there was all uh campaign reporters from the washington post wall street journal and they were all treating trump like a circus act they were like oh he's nothing and and i was like he he's kind of interesting, don't you think? Like, I like Make America Great. Oh, you don't know what you're talking about. The powers that be will not let Trump win. And I said, are they going to shoot him? Because otherwise, I don't see how they can

stop him because he's really appealing. And it was sort of a total missing in action kind of thing. Do you think they have recovered that now? I've learned not to lump the media all in together. It's one thing I've been trying not to do. I think journalists, people who go out and do reporting, have done an outstanding job, and they've been doing an even better job in the Trump era. I think that political analysis is still as broken as it ever has been. The raging dumpster fire filled with idiots

and just campaign rejects and valueless creeps. Just a bunch of TV-hungry maniacs. That's why we're starting a media company. To John's point, I think there were decisions made early on. I want to be more careful about this, too, because I feel like we were... Oh, careful. We're doing careful now. Nuance.

13 minutes left nuance we were very critical of the media i think it's important to talk about like what the criticism was a lot of it was cable news and a lot of it was business decisions made by top people to show trump constantly while their reporters i mean now though now do you think they're i think they're a hell of a lot tougher on him now than they were before. I just think it's a dumpster fire. No, in terms of... The reporters, I think, are doing a good job. The reporters are doing a good job. Like, if you look at Jake Tapper, like, he's doing tough journalism every day.

Yeah, he is, actually. I think that what happened in the run-up to the election, I think that there was this presumption that Hillary Clinton would be the next president. So they treated her like someone to be held accountable to being president, and they treated Trump like a TV show a little bit. I mean, I will always remember the New York Times. Always. What?

Always. I'll forever remember the New York Times on the day that they had four or five email stories that blanketed the front page. No, it was about the letter. It was about Comey's letter. It was Comey's letter. There was no proof. There was no nothing.

It led the entire New York Times a week before the election, and then the night before the election when Comey said no, just kidding. By the way, just kidding. Nothing was wrong here. She's fine. NBC Nightly News led with Hillary Clinton avoids email controversy on final day. That was it. Which is...

Wait, did she? But, uh... But, uh... That was a bit. What were we we talking about okay you guys see my hand oh yeah the media fire yeah yeah yeah um so i think that they've been chastened i think that one thing that they've been learning how to do is how do you deal with the fact that the president's a liar um and that you can't just report his accusations um there's you know there are bright spots and and and and failures but um yeah i I think that we have a problem of the conversation around politics is broken.

The journalism is excellent. But there's also, one of the things we think about constantly is people are getting information in different ways. I think if you're betting on cable news being the primary way of people getting political news in 10 years, you're crazy, right? So we're trying to figure out how to reach people entirely mobily. I think a podcast is a part of that. But I think what the Snapchat

folks are doing, Good Luck America with Peter Hamby, if you're not thinking about these people who aren't Googling Barack Obama or going to NYTimes.com, but how to reach them where they are, you're not going to be communicating with the people you need to reach. And if we don't figure out a way to reach them, then the hoaxes are going to reach them. They're going to get

it on their Facebook feed. So you have a John Lovett filter on Snapchat now? Let's talk about that after. That's an idea. All right, let's get to some questions. Let's see. What do you think of what is happening in France right now with the rise of the far right-wing Marie Le Pen?

It's scary. And it's weird the convergence of rhetoric and that you see Nigel Farage and Steve Bannon and Marie Le Pen meeting, having conversations. I think Europe we should be nervous about Europe for a couple reasons. I think they are

susceptible to some of the fake news, like Russian hacking things we saw that were so pervasive in our election. I think that's something they're sort of sounding the alarm on, rightly so. I think that they've dealt with, look, we're really lucky to have two big oceans on either side of our country, right? And we have like very safe, steady borders. They do not. And what has happened in Syria and Iraq in terms of the refugee crisis has been disruptive. And it's adding on to a problem of a failure

to assimilate communities together and people feeling disaffected and unemployed and dealing with economic problems as well. So I think, you know, it makes me very nervous about the ability of nationalism to really work and to push someone like her with some pretty abhorrent views. It's frankly an easier sell in Europe than it is here. Yeah. It happened here. and to push someone like her with some pretty abhorrent views into office. It's frankly an easier sell in Europe than it is here.

Yeah. It happened here. And in the Dutch or another country. Yeah. Steve King's favorite guy there. Yeah. It's fascinating that Germany is sort of the bulwark against alt-right. Yeah. I mean, thank God for Angela Merkel.

Yeah. Angela. Angela. Angela. All right. What are your plans to give Crooked Media a more diverse voice? I would agree with that. You all somewhat look the same.

Us too. Yeah. I was told that being gay doesn't count. No, it doesn't count. No more. It used to. It's like trying to get into nursery schools in San Francisco. It used to be easy, but now there's too many gays with children.

Kara Swisher, too many gays with children. That's why, like, Pence doing, like, an anti-gay EO would be, like, bittersweet. Yes, exactly. We get a little bit of that vibe back. Yes, we do. I know. I don't want that to happen. It's so pleasurable for it to come back.

This is something we talk about and think about a lot because it's important to us for a number of reasons. It's important to us because we know we have blind spots when you're, like, literally same looking, same age, same work background. And we're missing perspectives, and we're trying to create a company that's going to reach a whole universe of people. I think, so we're working on diversifying our team internally as we start to hire people. I mean, we're a two-month-old company, right?

So we haven't, like, made a lot of decisions yet. But that's very, very, very important to us. Right. Have more podcasts and more diversity. And we're trying to recruit people to join Crooked Media that have diverse perspectives, diverse voices, and are coming from different backgrounds than us and different views. Because, you know, I think a year from now, I don't think this is a company that's like set up for us to talk. I think it's a set up, it's a company that's like brought together really smart, interesting people to have a better conversation

about politics. And we might not be a part of a lot of those conversations. We don't want it to be just around us. I think we want diversity of background, diversity of viewpoints, diversity of life experience. That is incredibly important to this company and it's what we're thinking about as we go beyond just the three of us which it is right now. A company we started because we're friends.

I had ranked you. Backstage I had ranked them. I said, oh, here are the left wing dude bros. dude bros or whatever. Douche bros? Oh, douche bros. Yes, I said douche bros. And then I said, compared to the tech douche bros, compared to the right wing douche bros. You know, there's a list.

And you said, where are we on the list? I said, oh, you're at the top, but it's really low bar. We'll take it. I'm sorry I missed that conversation. I know, you did. You should take it. I'm sorry I missed that conversation. I know you did. You should have played. It was delightful. But meaning that you would have shows that are, how do you look at it? Because you don't want to just like fill in slots, but what is the thinking behind that? Well, for one, it's like, it's not filling slots. That's not how we think about it at all. It's like bringing people to the table as partners to help make every single

decision and who are diverse in perspective and background and like understand things we don't know. So that's part of it. But then, I mean, our first show is with friends like these with Anna Marie Cox. You should all subscribe on iTunes. It's great. Her show is about bringing people who disagree together and bridging divides. So it's the content and the individual. And she's done it a couple different ways like her first episode was she interviewed a pastor who both of his counties in Wisconsin voted for Trump so she got that

and then you know she then had a great interview with a friend and the whole episode was being the black friend that was her second episode so she's really she's doing a great thing because she's like I don't just want ideological

partisan differences, but differences across race and religion and having all these uncomfortable conversations. Right. It's sort of your family Thanksgiving dinner, essentially. Exactly. All right.

U.S. has never been as ripe for tyranny. Could it be a gift that Trump pulls comfortable people back to reality and to care as an external uniting threat. There is this whole meme that, you know, he's going to be King Trump. Do you think that? Do you feel that? Or do you think it's just being used to scare people? I think that it's, first of all, it's really hard to predict. I think being afraid that he's going to become an authoritarian, a true, full authoritarian, I think it's more effective and more practical to think,

what can I do to protect institutions right now? Because at the end of the day, Trump leaves office as a bitter president who undermined a bunch of our institutions and changed the presidency in a bunch of negative ways. That's still terrible. And the other thing to keep in mind, change the presidency in a bunch of negative ways. That's still terrible. And so I think, and the other thing to keep in mind, you know, Trump gives this joint address to Congress,

right? And of course, a group of people that I've criticized lightly during this event say, he became president. He's finally president. You know, he's presidential now. Well, what does that mean? What that means is he walked, he gave the speech, he succeeded, he didn't fall down. He had the pomp and ceremony of being the president of the United States. He gets those cultural institutions. He gets those norms. We have given them to him.

So we have to protect the ones that aren't as fun, like the oversight and the rule of law. And I think that has to be our focus, worrying that he's going to become... The media and the courts. He can be very, very destructive long before he's Putin. Right, right. I do a foreign policy show called Pod Save the World. We're just hitting all of our marks.

I was talking to a guy named Mike McFaul, who is a former U.S. ambassador to Russia, and I asked him a similar question. People who are Russia experts, like Julie Yaffe was pointing out similar things, there are parallels. And I think the tale of the tape on sort of Putin's rise is that people didn't fight hard enough early, especially, especially when it comes to defending the press, which is why I think we're pretty hard on- Press, the judges, now apparently the Congressional Budget Office needs protecting. U.S. attorneys. Yeah. I mean, right. Every

nonpartisan institution that he doesn't like, he's savaging. But I think it is important to fight these things early. And like, I don't know that that's a blessing in disguise, but a more aware, a more awake population, that's probably good. So next question. Did Hillary lose because of policy, personality, or Putin? Yes. Which one?

You got to pick one. I don't know if I can, I don't know if policy should go there. I don't think there was a policy that, I think, look, the Putin thing is hard to tell what kind of effect that had. It's hard to measure it, but clearly the combination of WikiLeaks...

I think Comey probably had a bigger effect on the undecided voters at the end. Yeah, that's Putin. I think that had done. But that said, I think that Hillary was in a position to have Comey tip the race because she probably was... I think she was a candidate who'd been in, who's of Washington, right? And that's not just a specific Hillary

problem. Like I was on the Kerry race in 04. That was my first race. John Kerry had that same problem. Like people who have been in Washington a very long time tend to be a little stiffer and a little more cautious when they're out on the campaign trail. It's not just specific to Hillary. Bernie was actually an exception. Bernie's been in Washington for I don't know how long. He didn't seem like he was Washington. He still sort of broke out of that. Putin, personnel.

On the policy front, I think one lesson I take away from the election is there's a lot of like, look at how many policies, look how thick this policy proposal is. You look at, you know, you look at the proposals on minimum wage or college, and you took simple, elegant Bernie Sanders ideas. And, and it's not about left versus, versus right, but just simple, digestible ideas that said, like, this is going to help you. It's simple. It's for you. And I think that there's a democratic apparatus that treated seriousness

with how complicated it was, how you can massage the tax credits to not hurt the deficit in a certain kind of way. And I think that's the kind of thinking we need to push aside because we're in the wilderness. We're an opposition party. We need to have simple, clear proposals. I think it's very frustrating. Clear proposals. Whatever he said, yeah. Simple, clear proposals.

The rare applause line. That's not very Hamiltonian. I feel bad for the friends who worked on the campaign because they sort of get called sore losers when they talk about the Putin. But as a guy who's worked on a campaign comms team, you can't underestimate the damage that did to the mood music of the election.

Every day you're dealing with Putin or John Podesta's emails or whatever the hell it is. And you cannot get a message out that's hard to get out anyway. So like, I don't discount that. I think what we screwed up and what I personally screwed up as a Democrat was clearly the rise of Bernie said, we hate Washington.

The rise of Trump said, we hate Washington. And we said, here's a fixture of Washington for 30 years. And like voters said, no, that's not what we want. And I don't think that's personality. I don't think that's policy. I don't think it's Putin. I think it's a fundamental misreading by Democrats of what people wanted. And some of that was set before the election even began,

even if you think she ran a great campaign. It was just sort of baked in. Three million more votes. 100,000 votes go the other way. We're having a very different conversation. Stop. It's worth pointing out. It's worth pointing out. No, it is. A hundred thousand votes go the other way. We're having a very different conversation. Oh, stop. It's worth pointing out.

It's worth pointing out. No, it is pointing out, but we always point it out. I don't always point it out. I rarely do. I forgot for a long time. No, but the thing is, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. That's the thing about the Putin thing. It doesn't matter. We have to learn the lesson. Wow. That's a lot of them. Yeah, I know.

I'm not... If only. If only. So close. If only there was 30,000 people. Well, I'd say like, yeah, right. She almost became president. We almost weren't in a nightmare.

Hey, how's it going? Yet not. All right, last question. What's happening? We're just talking. Oh, cool. Last quick question. And then I want you each to answer this and then say who, if you could pick almost any

Democrat, anyone in the world who would pick to run in 2020, who would it be? It says, Cory Booker wasn't on your list of promising Dems. What's your thinking? That's the last question. You know, that's why these lists suck. Who would be? You could pick someone. Who would be?

You always leave someone off the list. Yeah. But you left them off. You know who I forgot that I really like? Deval Patrick. Oh, yeah. I could see Deval coming out. Okay.

I like Deval Patrick. I like Deval Patrick. All right. But anyone, think of someone completely out of, you could just pull, grab someone from anywhere.

Business, Hollywood, anywhere. Living or dead? Yeah, living or dead. Okay, good. Barack Obama? No, he can't do it. I don't think it's going to be fruitful.

I don't think we're going to want to pick somebody. I think you're going to be unhappy with this as the last question. All right. What would you like for the last question?

I don't know. No, answer my fucking question. This is a tough interview. It's super hard for a lesbian to beat a gay guy. It really is. Yes, now you did the thing. We just have a natural rapport. Yes, you did the thing. I mean, look, we come from two different worlds.

What you guys missed is there was an email chain where Kara told love it she didn't think he was funny So the result is a lot of writer. No, I said he was passively funny. That was different right and you which really that's Profile you posted momentarily, right? I did it because I knew the adverb would bother him So pick one person. We've got to go. I'm picking Deval Patrick. Deval Patrick. Anyone from history.

It's so annoying that he thought of Deval. I know. We want to say Deval. I'd like to see Elizabeth Warren run. Elizabeth Warren, really? Elizabeth Warren. Yeah? Yeah.

Elizabeth Warren, Deval Patrick, those are my choices. I'd like to see the Elizabeth Warren that's willing to let it rip and say whatever she feels. An original? Who do I? Oprah. What are we even doing? I'd like to see the Elizabeth Warren that's willing to let it rip and say whatever she feels. An original? Who am I? Oprah. What are we even doing? I'm not into the secret thing. I'm sorry. That was some dangerous nonsense. If you wish it, you can be a billionaire like me.

Where are they? Where are the Oprah billionaires? All right. To not Oprah, Elizabeth Warren. You want me to come up with somebody new? Yes, I do. It's not that hard. Give me some options. Oh, Michelle.

Al Franken. Al Franken. I love Al Franken. I love Al Franken. I have loved Al Franken forever. All right. I'm going with Jennifer Lawrence

Because everybody likes her Oh great Good lesbian answer Exactly And with that No the lesbian answer Is Kristen Stewart Because they want to

You were just trying to get her Yeah exactly We just want her to hit us Yeah Like that Anyway thank you so much Thank you Perfect meeting

Thank you Thank you guys Perfect meeting. Thank you. Thank you guys. And that was our episode. Wow. Wasn't that great? What a live show. Incredible. We learned things.

We came away differently. We didn't embarrass ourselves too much. At least none that we saw publicly. Yeah, I mean, look, the one thing that doesn't come across in the audio is how many people came up to us to say that they were friends of the pod.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God, stop. Which was cool. No, it's great. We had a good time. Anyway, go subscribe to Pod Save America. Get your friends to subscribe. Take their phones, subscribe, write reviews.

We need all this, remember. Subscribe right now to Love It or Leave It, my new show. John is going to be a guest on the first episode. That's enough reason to subscribe right there. Also subscribe to Pod Save the World. There's a great Glenn Greenwald interview. Everyone's talking about it.

And of course, subscribe to Anna Marie Cox's podcast with friends like these. Thanks, guys. Thank you.