Pod Save America - "The Mall sank into the earth."

Episode Date: January 23, 2017

Jon, Jon and Tommy talk about Trump's inaugural address, the women's marches across the US and Sean Spicer's wonderful weekend. Then they're joined by Seth Meyers from "Late Night with Seth Meyers".

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. On the pod today, we have an interview with Seth Meyers of The Late Show, who we taped this on Thursday. And, you know, we were actually pretty worried about it. At the time, we didn't even know if we'd still be here today. We were worried about a Trump administration. Man, egg on our face.

Everything turned out fine. So far, so good. He became president. Changed. So we will have that interview later. Thank you again to everyone for listening. Please subscribe. Please review and rate us.

Listen to our podcast with Barack Obama. It was his final interview. He chose to do it with us. Watch us try it. Chose. I don't even know why we're asking people to listen. Everybody's listening. The show is a juggernaut.

Follow us on Snapchat. We're slowly trying to figure out how to use it as people in their 30s. Social media manager Tommy Vitor. Mostly our Snapchats are Tommy filming me when I'm late to the car. It's great stuff. I think it's great content. How do we feel this morning? Let's start there.

It's great stuff. I think it's great content. How do we feel this morning? Let's start there. I'll say, I would never have imagined that the Monday after Trump's inauguration, I actually felt pretty good. But thanks to the Women's March, I feel pretty good. I feel great. Tom?

I don't feel good. And I don't think anyone should feel good. I feel good about... Better than I thought. I feel confident that he is going to continue to turn off people and drive down his own approval rating. I feel very scared that someone this thin-skinned is already this petty and thin-skinned on day one. I don't know if you want to jump right into the events of the weekend. We're still on feelings, Tommy. Feelings.

I think we should all be a little nervous that he's overreacting like a child. I guess I should say, right, I feel better than I thought I did. I am still quite angry all the time. Oh, angry and terrified for sure. I just think that the seeds of the opposition have been planted. And it was

and that march was real. It could have gone a number of different ways from not as big as it was to, you know, and we'll talk about it later. I also came back from the march to find that it was raining in L.A. and my house was leaking. Mine was, too. It was just pouring in the room with my computer. Oh, first world problems. Okay.

Let's start with the inaugural. We'll go backwards. We did a live stream on the inaugural on Facebook Live. That was fun. Quicken Media's first live stream yeah what a technology's amazing in case you're one of the few people who missed it literally thousands and thousands of people are watching us live thousands and thousands thousands and thousands of people are watching let's on the inaugural let's start by separating out the writing from the substance. Since we have two speechwriters here, former speechwriters on this podcast.

I think the writing was generally bad. Forgettable. It was better than usual, but the usual is garbage. To me, the whole inaugural speech was like a polished up Trump rally speech. Right. A little polish on it. Yeah, a little shine in that turd but i think like in terms of like memorable phrases which are always hard to inaugural anyway i think you know american carnage is going to be one that people maybe remember but beyond that i just want to say

putting american in front of a kind of i don't know evocative word is like how hacks come up with titles for their screenplays so give me a. And I felt that a lot of the rhetoric in the speech was like that. It was like hacks trying to make something just sound a little better. Right, yes. And just like references to blood. I mean, by the way, don't put blood in the speech. Blood and soil. Blood and soil. Look that up. Google it.

Google blood and soil, people. George Will, a conservative columnist and commentator, called it the most dreadful inaugural address in history, right? So I think that there's a strain of conservative intellectual who continues to not like Trump and who sort of, you know, critiques these things on style points as well. I'm just sort of wary and mindful that these fear tactics worked in his convention speech and worked along the way in the campaign trail. And I'm sort of curious, you know, what the average voter thought. I mean, I do think that you probably come away from the sum of that, that day and that weekend thinking that the only news you've heard out of it is about his crowd size and how things

aren't going that well. So, you know, it's probably a wash what he actually said. Yeah. I mean, one thing on the substance, now that we're going into the substance of the inaugural, it has been like bipartisan condemnation from, from speechwriters and observers on both sides. You know, David Frum, Michael Gerson, both said it was horrible. Like you said, George Will. James Fallows wrote an interesting piece about it in The Atlantic. And in terms of what you were saying about the scare tactics, Fallows said, you know, from this inaugural address onward, the everything is terrible rhetoric is decreasingly useful for an incumbent president whose own party controls both houses of Congress.

OK, let's say everything is terrible. Now the voters are watching to see what you can do about it. So that's the difference between in the campaign when we all miss this and we're like, oh, maybe it doesn't work. It's too dark, but it did work. It is different when you're governing because now he has to produce results. And there was very little in the speech about – there was very little new about the vision. There was very little to reach out to the other side or acknowledging that, you know, basically he's the most divisive president to ever take office there was no

attempts to try to solve that in the inaugural at all the only thing he said as an attempt to i don't know address the fact that he ran a racist misogynist campaign because he's a racist and a misogynist is uh he said this crazy line like you know there's no room in the heart of the patriot for prejudice, which is I don't know. My alarm bells went off. That is some weird fascistic rhetoric. And you know what the thing is, too? It's not like I can't even decide what's worse. Like, is it worse that that the people who wrote this speech for him? Because I got to tell you, I don't think Trump wrote it with a Sharpie in the Mar-a-Lago lobby. Is it worse that the people who wrote this thing are so historically ignorant that they don't see the resonance of that kind of rhetoric?

Or what's more likely that they do and they used it anyway? Because whether or not they can hear how kind of resonant of another time that kind of language is, they certainly know that about America First, which is just, you know, Dr. Seuss was drawing cartoons about how that's fascist in like the 30s. Like this is the, you know, anyway. anyway well they've made a choice right they are well aware that america first is seen as a time in our history when people were pulling back and we were you know trying to stay out of world war ii and you know they've made a choice that they don't care and that they want to take it back and take back the phrase because they think it's useful to them somehow like we took back crooked media yeah exactly well it's useful to them somehow. Like we took back Crooked Media. Yeah, exactly. Well, it's just like what they were trying to do.

It was nationalist and it was like a screed against Washington, which I get that those are effective. It's not some brilliant, like this has been like a strain through history. Like it's pretty easy to throw together a super nationalist screed against Washington. I don't think that takes a lot of... Even a bunch of useless hacks that Trump has assembled around him can accidentally walk backwards into a pool and discover it. And to be fair, consultants in both parties, our hacks, have been doing that kind of rhetoric for a long time. Saying like, all the people behind me have been corrupt and have not helped you and helped themselves.

Right, that's a pretty easy thing to say. Bane in Dark Knight Rises is like, I give the government back to you, the people. I didn't do the accent. I didn't do it. I thought you were going to go there. I did the cadence. The people. I can't do the accent. I didn't do it. I thought you were going to go there. I did the cadence. I can't do it. Okay, so we're going to say a generally forgettable inaugural address.

And then the next day... General forgettable, isn't he? I think he's taken over interior. I'm not really sure. Boom. Hi, wait. When did young David Axelrod get here? I think they're

still having trouble filling a lot of those spots, which is why they should be using ZipRecruiter.com. Very nice. I got it, guys. Good work. I did it. Let's talk about the Women's March the next day, which was larger and more successful than the inaugural.

Yeah. Something that bothered. Crooked Media was covering live from three different cities across the United States. We were in San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Washington, D.C. We had it covered for you. We were Snapchatting. I was periscoping. We had all the bubbles covered. We had all the liberal bubbles covered.

I loved periscoping that March, mostly because while I was sharing with people at home what was going on in this historic day people were recognizing me it is weird that I'm running into a lot of friends of the pod now who are you know ask me if I like love it and all sorts of other maybe think about whether why people are asking if you like really I love it everyone loves it it's audio format, so I'm always just a little confused by it. But enough about making this about ourselves. Wait, wait, one more thing. One more thing. Just a special thanks to whoever actually made a sign that said, John Love It, will you marry me?

And brought it to the march. I just want to be clear. Spot on. Tommy and I are looking at each other. My eyes are rolling right now. There are laser beams from their eyes, guys. Rethinking the do I like love it answer. So the cool thing about the march in San Francisco for me was how hopeful and joyful and excited people were.

There were a lot of funny signs and a lot of references to pussy and veiled criticisms and not so veiled criticisms at Donald Trump. But mostly it was just a lot of people who seemed excited for the first time in a while to be together and to be standing up for something they cared about. Tommy, some bad news. I don't know if you saw it, but Frank Luntz was sort of disappointed with some of the language and the signs. So I think it's back to the fucking drawing board. Frank Luntz took a picture of a bunch of people at a hotel lobby in Washington complaining about, like, there's a mob that was, like, taunting me. And it's, like, a five-year-old girl and a grandmother. There's a mob with a kid feeding her, like, its goldfish. They're, like, sitting by a mob that was taunting me. And it's like a five-year-old girl and a grandmother. There's a mom with a kid feeding her its goldfish.

They're sitting by a fire, sipping hot cocoa. And just celebrating. Look at these animals. Reading the Feminine Mystique. And he's like, the city's fallen into chaos. Run for your lives. Frank Lantz is on the road now. He walked in there trying to get a few focus group participants.

And suddenly he ran out just hanging on to dear life. Somebody did throw glitter at him. And look, we do not support the throwing of glitter at Frank Luntz. But man, did he. No one was arrested. There were millions of people. Washington was filled. I was there.

The streets of Washington were filled all the way from the mall up to K Street. No one was arrested. It was so peaceful. It was so orderly. I'll tell you, if these liberals care about the environment, why are they leaving their signs on the ground? There were half a million people there. A couple signs are going to be on the ground, guys.

Have you ever seen what happens after a Patriots game? That was a thing? I didn't even notice. You know what? I'm even sorry I raised it. I'm sorry I raised it because it's not a thing. So I went to the one in Los Angeles. I was going to meet up with people, but then when I got there, there was too many phones,

so my cell service was dead, so I just hung out there by myself for a few hours. And it was great. I was happy that my phone wasn't working. I talked to people. I saw the signs. I was also struck by the cross-section of people that were there. I mean, it was just like men, women, young, old, every race. A lot of people brought their kids.

There was this adorable group of little girls and one little boy with their parents. And one kid was like, I want to go home, right? Because they were four. And the parents were like, we just wanted you to experience this. I was like, wow, you're a good parent, whoever you are. Yeah. My phone wasn't working, so I couldn't meet up with all my celebrity friends that were distributed throughout the mall. And that's life.

That happens. We're back into pre-election insufferable category today. No, we're not. No, we're not. No, we're not. Let's be careful. This is post-election humbled but joyous warriors in the face of adversity who recognize our own limitations yet aren't afraid to speak our minds.

That's where we're at. And take two. Are we not using any of this? I think this is staying in. No, it's great. Yeah. No, and there was obviously a ton of anti-Trump stuff there, but I was also struck by, like, no one was, it wasn't angry.

It didn't feel angry. No, it wasn't angry at all. They started our march, and people, everyone in the crowd started singing the national anthem as they started marching toward City Hall. And I was just like, this is cool. And look, we don't know exactly how many people were at these marches all across the country. And no arrests. Not one arrest.

It does seem like this was, in all likelihood, the largest protest in American history. Over 3 million. 538 says over 3 million. 538. I know you were talking with Jody. Jody and I, last night, he was like, we're not really sure about these numbers yet. And I said, I don't care. I like them.

But no, it seems like it was millions of people. So it's the largest protest in history. Trump hasn't actually done much yet. This is based on the promise of who we think he's going to be about who we think we are and already there's this much energy like that's really exciting and the fact that trump tweeted a kind of soft afraid to insult the protest tells you all you need to know because trump doesn't pick fights with people he thinks uh he may not win the fight with. Like Michelle Obama.

I tweeted on the day of the protest. I'm like, imagine if Trump just said, like, protests are a part of our democracy and I don't agree with you. And then he did it the next day. And he did it. And that's not because it worked. It's because the protest works. It's because he knows that he can't. That's a fight he might not win, which is a great sign.

Because that's where he's smart. He's smart about, like, what's getting media attention and where the narrative is and all that kind of shit. He does get that, and he got that the protests were a big deal. Also, on not just coastal elites, even though that's where we were, we were in our liberal bubbles, 12,000 in Omaha, Nebraska,

12,000 in Oklahoma City, 5,000 in Birmingham, Alabama. Huge protests in Minnesota. There were people in Antarctica, Alabama. Huge protests in Minnesota. There were people in Antarctica, Alaska. People were walking around in Alaska. I mean, it is, you know, the reflexive thing everyone wants to do is to point at Madonna or share a speech and say this is liberal coastal elites or celebrities leading this thing. But it just was not the case here.

Yeah. I didn't see one celebrity in L.A. It was L. Yeah. I didn't see one celebrity in LA. It was LA. I didn't see any there. And, you know, apparently there was like a podium in DC where there was like a series of speeches

but because so many more people turned out, it's actually hard to tell the difference between 500,000 people at a Women's March and 500,000 people looking for where

the Women's March starts. But there was like all these people just kind of, like kind of, I can't see the screen, whatever, and then everybody just was hanging around. I could barely hear any of the speeches. It these people, uh, just kind of like, kind of, I can't see the screen, whatever. And then everybody just was hanging around.

I could barely hear any of the speeches. It was a people being like, let us March. Yeah. Too long. The speeches are going too long. I do think that's a good lesson for future events is fewer speeches, more action,

fewer speeches, shorter speeches. That's all coming from speech writers. Let me tell you, that's always, it's always better. No one has ever said in the history of speeches, I wish the speech were longer and that there were more of them.

Never. And Trump's speech was short. That's the one positive rating I'll give it. Short and ugger. Short and sweet. Okay, so the question on the march is, how do we keep the momentum up? What are the next steps?

Because you just have one march and everyone goes home, and that's not victory right there. I thought everyone, there's a really great Vox interview with two Bernie organizers that everyone should get. We'll tweet out the link. But they were saying that volunteers from the Bernie campaign are working on something to test at the Women's March. It's called Knock on Every Door. And the idea is to get everyone who came to the march to start doing door-to-door canvassing. That's cool.

And going to houses that are not just on Democratic lists, campaign lists, but just houses all over the community and saying like, you know, are you registered? Who'd you vote for last time? Did you not vote? What's it going to take for you to vote this time? And just really start, like if you came up for the march, starting to do the work of door-to-door organizing.

I love that idea because, you know, a lot of, when fingers are pointed at the last election of the things we screwed up, it's that we didn't even try to make an argument to some of the voters who we assumed would go for Trump. And that idea has us talking to everybody and reaching out to every single person and canvassing. So I think it's I think it's a very cool idea. I also think, you know, if you if you went to the march or if you know a friend who did and you're not registered to vote, you should try to do that tomorrow. Or make sure your friends who you went with are registered to vote. Because that's a very simple thing that you can get done today that's not an issue down the road. And I think if you want to stay engaged on a national level, there will be more events like this. But look at organizations like EMILY's List or Obama for America or others,

because they're going to be putting together ways to sort of get people together and stay involved. A very cool thing that a bunch of people are tweeting this weekend is swingleft.org. So you go to the site, you enter your zip code, and it will show you the nearest swing district, nearest congressional district that was a swing district last time. And you can get updates about when a Democrat's running in that district, how many votes they lost by last time, and you can actually go get involved. So I played with this a little bit over the weekend. We don't know who's behind the site yet.

Yeah, yeah. Guys, whoever made that site, just put your damn names on the thing. What are you doing? What are you afraid of? Come on. Enough. Looking at this site, it's like a cool thing. It works.

And you're like, we're a group of tech people, but we're not party. Just put your names on the thing, and then it'll be even better. Anyway. That's a caveat. Anyway. Yeah, I find out we have a swing district right near us, guys. I know. California 27th.

Who is that? Who's the Republican? I don't know, but he won by 16,000 votes. Oh, that's very cool. And it is the only congressional county that, it was the only congressional district in California that represents a part of L.A. County that is still Republican. So it's up near 1,000 votes.

And look, guys, I'm not saying that I wouldn't be drafted. But anyway, look, let's say you need a charming candidate who craves the attention that only politics can provide. Think about it. When you and I get annoyed at a Levitt joke, he really drags. I dig it. We should just laugh and move on. I'm like North Korea. I don't give

an inch. I'm negotiating the table size, guys. But another important thing I think people should think about is like big national movements like that are cool and amazing and come around every once in a while. But you should get it organized and involved locally. Like run for office. If you have five

friends from your small town and you went someplace to go to a march, if the four of you showed up to a state Senate race, you found someone you really liked and wanted to get behind. That is a gift from God for an election of that size. So get involved. Show up. Figure out what you can do locally because guess who was a state senator? Barack Obama. Right.

And then 10 years later, the guy's president. Yeah, it worked out well for him. Turned out OK. This is Pod Save America. Alright, let's talk about... On my outline, the next topic is crowd-sized bullshit. So, Donald Trump woke up very unhappy

on Saturday with all the coverage. I feel like that's a common occurrence for him. I'm just going to read this paragraph from the New York Times story about this because it is just so bizarre. Mr. Trump grew increasingly angry on Inauguration Day after reading a series of Twitter messages pointing out that the size of his inaugural crowd did not rival that of Mr. Obama's in 2009. You know what he should try to do. But he spent his Friday night in a whirlwind of celebration and affirmation when he awoke on Saturday morning after his first night in the executive mansion. The glow was gone. Several people close to him said, and the new president was filled

anew with a sense of injury. It's a shame that you can't make your tie long enough to cover up your inaugural parade size. I just want to point out that there is no easier morning in the White House than waking up the day after your inauguration. Everyone is giving you the benefit of the doubt. The glow is there for months.

And he lost his mind. It's unbelievable. It's day one. They're losing it. So where did he decide to get upset for the first time? But an event at the CIA in front of a wall dedicated to fallen CIA agents. He's standing in front of stars dedicated

to the dead, lying about the people that showed up to his inaugural. It is bananas. Yeah, he's like, so he started attacking the media. He said, the media is trying to say that I have this fight with the intel community. Not true. True. Look at his tweets. He compared them to Nazis. He's like, why is the media always pointing out that i compared them to nazis he said that the crowd looked like a million and

a half people that's not true uh he said it went all the way back to the washington monument anyone who can look at a picture knows that that's not true i'm so mad at paul ryan for letting this happen ryan's previous nice job with the pledge, buddy. You fucked us all. Unbelievable. I'm not over it. You know what? I don't feel great. I lied earlier.

So he does this thing at the CIA. But the other thing is he also brought campaign supporters with him to the CIA so he could get applause in the crowd. I've been to Langley. I've been with President Obama when he addressed the workforce in front of that same wall. And first of all, he did it on the weekend. So most of the people who worked there probably weren't there or didn't want to be there. But also, you know, this would be like going to Arlington Cemetery and talking about your Nielsen ratings or your crowd numbers. I mean, it's insulting to the people who are lost. And just remember, you know, if you were in the agency and you died serving overseas, your family might not have known what you were doing and you were never celebrated. And, you know, it's a uniquely fraught issue for them and an emotional one. And also, you know, it's also an organization dedicated to sorting out fact from fiction. And the guys up there just lying in the most nakedly political way at what's supposed to be. And like,

I think people overdo this and say how apolitical the IC is, but there's supposed to be an apolitical organization that helps presidents make decisions based on the best information. So the, the, the different ways this was insulting to the mission of the organization and the people inside it, uh,

there's too many to count, but you know, I, it's like this also, this also should have been a really easy win for him he could have walked in there thank them for their service and talked about how important their collaboration is going forward and he would have gotten universal acclaim and said like look i know i've we started off on the wrong foot and i just like to say i'm

behind you you know like he could have you're not nazis right it's also like and filling the seats filling the seats with supporters boosters is crazy he could have i mean he could have also filled the seats by going on seat geek oh no here we are oh my goodness i got it guys good one i got Seat cake. Okay, so that happened. Then, that wasn't enough. He sends Sean Spicer out to the White House briefing room, and Sean Spicer's first official trip to the White House briefing room. There are visuals of the crowd shots on either side of Sean. He gets out there, and he just delivers this blistering statement

attacking the press. It just tells all these easily verifiable lies. Blatant lies. Like, sky is red type lies. You know? And then does not take any questions and walks out of the briefing room.

Tom, is that normal? So my first job at the White House was assistant press secretary. What I did was, with a group of others, is we prepared Robert Gibbs, who is the White House press secretary, every day for the briefing. And the first briefing you do, the first time you walk into that room and those Klieg lights are on and you're at that podium, is like a monumental moment for the White House and for that person who's taking over that job. It's your first chance to engage with the press. And usually it begins with some sort of conversation about the relationship and how you want to work with them. And you believe

in the mission of like open, you know, free information and the First Amendment. But instead, he went out there on a Saturday night and just tore these people a new asshole for five minutes and then walked out. And I just want to be clear, the White House press secretary doesn't walk into the briefing room, bark at them, and then walk out. Your job is to take their questions. That is the primary part of your job. You are a conduit between the press and the administration. That is first in your job description. It was so stupid, guys. It was crazy. First of all, it was insulting and it's dangerous that the White House press secretary is just going to give in to a seat to the demands of his boss and

just walk out to the briefing room and lie every day. I mean, that's a dangerous thing for all of us, but it's also not going to make him an effective press secretary, which is a great thing because that relationship being untenable will make it much harder for this White House to achieve its goals. So, sorry, Sean. We're rooting for you to fail, buddy. You have a finite amount of credibility. We've seen this with White House press secretaries. People like Scott McClellan, who's one of Bush's press secretaries, was sent out to lie by Karl Rove and others about their involvement in the leak of Valerie Plame's information. So once you are perceived as a liar, once your credibility is gone, you are ineffective at that job. And it seems clear that the audience for that briefing was one person, Donald Trump, and no one had the political judgment or courage to tell him that was a terrible idea. And that is going to be a massive problem.

Yeah, that's true of Trump's dumb tweets. It's true of this briefing, that there was no adult who had the capacity to say to the President of the United States, hey, you're a little hot under the collar because you have a personality disorder. Maybe we hold off on this. I'm not saying that's how you'd say it. Maybe you've got a better way to say it. And it got worse. You saw them talking about this.

I don't know if you want to get into Kelly and Conway. Oh, let's. So you had Kelly and Conway on Meet the Press and Rance. Rance. It's Rance Pribis. I know, I'm just annoying you a little. Did you see the joke?

Jesus Christ. Did you get the joke? Jesus Christ. Did you get the joke? His face looked like he was joking. Yeah. I paused. That's what you do when you joke. And we had Reince on Fox News Sunday. Is that a good joke?

And they were so angry. I mean, they were like screaming back through the microphone at Chuck Todd and Chris Wallace. I really. Then we had some like instant classics from this, right? Sean Spicer. Sean Spicer is now like an international meme. He's been joked about everywhere because he said, it was the largest audience ever to witness an inaugural, period.

Which is just like... Which is like flatly untrue. And then Kellyanne Conway on Meet the Press says, Chuck's like, well, Sean Spicer lied. Yes, he came up with some alternative facts. Alternative facts. Alt facts is like a joke we were making about how Kellyanne Conway should be ashamed of herself. You know, the thing is, like, you look at Sean Spicer.

Let's get into it. You look at Sean Spicer and you're like, I think there might be like a kernel of you that knows that what you're doing is wrong. Kellyanne Conway, it's just dead eyes. I mean, that's just crazy. The thing she said that was. Watch that Meet the Press interview, people. It's just dead eyes. I mean, that's just crazy. Watch that Meet the Press interview, people. It's awesome. The thing she said that was the most ominous to me was she was like, we allowed you in the Oval.

And then they're going off on a reporter named Zeke Miller, who I've known for a long time, who is a very straightforward guy and a good reporter, who wrote a pool report where he said that he thought the Martin Luther King bust had been removed from the Oval Office. Now, he got that wrong. I guess his view was obstructed, and he quickly corrected and apologized, and Sean Spicer retweeted his apology tweet, correcting the pool report, saying apology accepted. But remember, like— But it wasn't, because then he just destroyed him in the briefing room later. Then they decided— Uber case, some case. It's crazy.

Right, and they went out on Sunday shows, and they decided to make this some sort of example of how the press is out to get them. And they're lying about that. They're lying about everything. And here's the qualitative difference, right? Zeke Miller says this in the pool report, immediately corrects it, immediately apologizes. And then everyone who, like, I had tweeted something about the MLK bus, right? And I was on a plane and one of our friends texted me and was like, oh, they just said it was a mistake. And I like immediately delete the tweet because like, who are we?

I'm a straight shooting journalist now. But it's like most people have the shame or want to correct something that's egregiously false. They have told now egregiously false, egregious lies over the last two days. And there is no hint of an apology no hint of a correction they just don't care and also on the right if you like watch fox and other conservatives now they're like well the media is getting all upset about this lies but like you know there was obamacare lies and benghazi lies and no one was ever upset about that arty fleischer's tweet about that was the dumbest thing it's so different though it's like

there are there are lies that come from policy differences where you can argue or like, OK, that was more true than not. Right. But this is like this is like sky isn't blue type shit. And there's a pattern here, which is, you know, this is the same thing that they did when BuzzFeed posted that dossier and CNN did a very kind of responsible report on what they were hearing from the intelligence community. CNN did a very kind of responsible report on what they were hearing from the intelligence community. They like to conflate the thing they can argue with with the thing they can argue with. So they can make it one thing. So they send out Sean Spicer to be like, you guys said there was no MLK bus.

Plus, the mall had so many people it collapsed and fell into the center of the earth. And it's like, hold on a second, buddy. Zeke apologized. So there's like a legitimate kind of thing there, even though you're being children about it and it's not really a thing. But what you're saying about the inaugural is bananas. And they do this over and over again. That is what they will do. So, you know, keep your eyes peeled, people. If Sean Spicer came out and said, we're turning Medicaid into block grants, which they want to do, and then said, we don't believe that's a cut.

We think that's just shifting resources. We would all say that's not true. It is a cut. And maybe, you know, fact checkers would find us correct. But that is a different kind of falsehood than saying something that anyone who has a set of eyes can see is not true. It's a difference. It's a different thing. Fascinating little bit of criminology is Maggie Haberman, who's a great New York Times reporter, suggested on Twitter last night that basically Spicer had been set up to fail and that Trump had never really wanted him to be press secretary and that he was a previous pick and that Kellyanne Conway is who Trump wanted

and that maybe, you know, there was background quotes in some of these stories saying that Trump thought Sean had gone too far and they were just knifing this guy on day one. I mean, that place is blood sport. Sean, we're your friends. All right. And listen, we're here to help you. And look, you have your first briefing today and you've lost your credibility, but you need a clean shave. Maybe try Harry's razors. Speaking of bald-faced liars, have you considered Harry's razors? Also, you know, everyone will be listening to this podcast after today's first briefing has happened. So maybe by the time people are listening to this podcast, Sean Spicer will have gone out there, apologized, begged for everyone's forgiveness.

Maybe a gun on our face. Who knows what's going to happen when you hear this. Maybe kind of a bouquet of flowers, some chocolates for the press corps. Edible arrangement, yeah. Sorry, I lied to you. Sherry's Berries used to be a sponsor. Maybe we'll send him those. Yeah, so I don't think the Spicer... Oh, did you see someone on Wikipedia also changed Sean Spicer's picture to Baghdad Bob?

Do you see someone on Wikipedia also changed Sean Spicer's picture to Baghdad Bob? One thing about this is even the Trump surrogates who are out over the weekend, and I think all the journalists involved, the key point is who cares about the crowd size? There's a lot of reasons crowds do or don't show up. We shouldn't be fighting about this or going to war about this. There are far more important things. But the problem is they're hemorrhaging their credibility on something that's so silly. And then, you know, you pick up The Wall Street Journal today and there's reports that the FBI is investigating contacts between the Russian government and Trump's campaign, including communications between his national security advisor and that counterintelligence teams are doing this investigation. And so I want to be

very clear that we do not know that Flynn did anything wrong and no one's reporting that he did. And I don't want to convict someone in the court of public opinion for being investigated. But this is, you know, that's a dangerous. So this is an example of a time when reporters are going to come to you and they're going to say, what is this Wall Street Journal report? And you need to have the credibility to say this is not this is bullshit. Right. You want to be able to wave them on, wave them off. And no one is going to believe them when they try to wave them off these stories. The lies about crowd size are, I mean, they're blatant, but they're also small potatoes compared

to the lies they're going to tell about a whole bunch of other things. And it's going to get scary. It's very serious. It's very serious for this reason. Four years is a long time. There will be national security crisis. There'll be a national security crisis. There'll be all kinds of events where we're going to turn to the White House for information. It cannot be trusted. And that's just, it cannot be trusted. And listen, just like sliding into the weekend is the fact that Kellyanne Conway just said,

no, Trump's not ever going to release his tax returns. They totally dropped the canard about the audit. Except you know who's going to try to get them now? Friend of the pod, Norm Eisen. Yeah, that is pretty good. You get those tax returns. Norm Eisen and Richard Painter, who was Norm's counterpart in the Bush administration,

are suing because Trump is in violation of the emoluments clause, and as part of the lawsuit, they hope to get the tax returns in discovery. And Norm, look, I know you're worried about standing. I want you to know, you always have standing right here. I'd like to argue that Norm broke that news

on Pod Save America. I think you heard it here first. I think it, let's just spicer that. It's right, it to argue that Norm broke that news on Pod Save America. I think you heard it here first. I think it, let's, let's just spicer that. It's right. It's true. We broke that news. It's true. We broke it first.

Don't, don't, don't pay attention to anything that's contradictory. We want to thank the millions of people listening to every single episode of this podcast. There's never been. There are people as far back as the Washington Monument listening to this podcast. There's never been a podcast with an audience like this before. This is the greatest podcast of all time. Period. Period. Period. End of sentence. Also, Dippin' Dots suck.

I agree with Sean Spicer on Dippin' Dots. I don't know. I love a Dippin' Dot. Oh, I love them too. They're just not the ice cream of the future. No, no. They're not. Hey, we're a little inside baseball here. Sean Spicer tweets about Dippin' Dots all the time for seemingly no reason. Or did in 2012 when everyone started retweeting those. Now you know.

Get into it. Okay. When we come back, it will be a taped interview with Seth Meyers that we did on Thursday. He's a very, very nice guy. We had a lot of fun doing this interview. It's great. That was the most fun we've had in a while. Okay.

Not me, but I had a lot of fun, but I have a ton of fun in my life. Shut the fuck up. You're listening to Pod Save America. You are listening to Pod Save America. With us on the pod today, we have Seth Meyers. Seth, welcome. We're doing a little crossover pod. Crossover pod.

It's like when Spider-Man and Batman are in a comic together. It's exactly like that. It is. How are you doing, Seth? I'm doing good. How are you feeling? We always like to ask everyone how they're feeling i'm feeling pretty good okay yeah yeah we're talking what what is it what is the actual day it's the day before the inauguration yes so it's an interesting day to check in on people's feelings i feel yep i wonder if we were right on monday when this airs yeah how we felt today hopefully everything will still be yeah in order i guess we should talk about how do we think we'll feel on Monday.

I don't know. It's funny. People were asking me the other day, what do I expect tomorrow? And I've given up on expectations and voicing them and talking about them. It's been easy to sort of forget about this because Barack Obama was a security blanket who was there. But being in the White House yesterday and seeing literal moving boxes going out of the O oval office was that was a hard hard visual for me plus they're stealing all those busts yeah and that's gonna be like a big scandal it yeah oh does it how long do they have their boxes there uh i mean is it like when regular people move no they have to phase them because

they can't physically check you all out at once. So it's like, it's this rolling, depressing departure photo process. And like, he's there on the last day. It was a little sad. Yeah. A little sad. You guys got your interview, though.

We did get our interview. Good for Kevin. So during our interview, Lovett asked Obama if he feels responsible for Trump running because of the Correspondents' Center in 2011. The 2011 where we all worked together. Wasn't that funny?

What a funny night. Who had the last laugh there? Well, people say who, some people on Twitter said who's had the last laugh, or like who's laughing now? Trump fans have said to me who's laughing now, and to that I say, still us. He doesn't laugh. He doesn't laugh. I've never seen him laugh so he won yes but

i don't i think laughing is the wrong thing to put on him yeah when you were preparing for that speech which is a hard one yeah and you did great thanks it was a fun night no you guys did great with the president um how much how much did you think about like how much do you think about targeting trump like when did that sort of come up in your mind that that was going to be a focus How much did you think about targeting Trump? When did that sort of come up in your mind that that was going to be a focus? We worked on it for about three weeks because we had three weeks on from SNL, and there were about eight people that helped me out with it. We had a lot of people writing a lot of jokes.

And I remember the president releasing his long-form birth certificate was a huge bummer for us because it took away a lot of jokes. Us too. We got angry when we were told when we heard that there was like something going on and we might get wind of something that was like newsworthy that was gonna end up in the briefing room we were like it's gonna be the birth certificate it's gonna be tonight of all nights it's gonna be the birth certificate three days before the speech yeah and it was and then but trump was really like bubbling up in the days leading up to it. I feel like it was getting worse and worse because it hadn't occurred to us three weeks out how big a part Trump would be.

And then as it got closer, I think it really occurred to us, oh, this will be, and what a gift. Yeah. You know, what a replacement for the birth certificate thing is that he's, and I think it was also that he was going to be there. Right. Like once that was announced, then it got really fun. Because you think there's a lot of fun people in the room, but there aren't really. No. No, it's Washington.

It's a tough crowd, too. It's a tough crowd. Also, it was unique that they could cut to Trump. Because usually, it's not like the Golden Globes where they cut to the people as you're making jokes to them. The C-SPAN people have no idea where anybody is. The cameras are way far away. There's awful... I mean, again,

it was not Donald Trump's fault that night, but it was the least flattering shot of him watching himself get burned the whole day. I was sitting right behind him. Yeah.

I was at the table behind him and I could see just him being so pissed the whole time. C-SPAN had asked me for my script because they wanted to be able to cut to people

and I didn't give it to them for a couple of reasons. One, I didn't want it to be about the cut twos also i don't know if you guys feel this way the minute you show it to anybody i was just worried a c-span producer would flip through my script and not smile and i would lose all confidence you just don't want to show anybody anything until it's done yeah but the fact that you had so many Trump jokes, they, by the time I went, C-SPAN knew exactly where he was. They had found him during the president. It is,

it is a really interesting, I mean, I'm not saying anything. It's somebody's thought what a crazy night because a few people have certainly conjectured. It was, it was one of the moments for him. I'd heard it whispered for a while.

And then they did that frontline special. Amorosa just said it. Amorosa was like, that was, him. I'd heard it whispered for a while and then they did that front line special. Amorosa just said it. Amorosa was like she said that was it. That was the moment he decided he was going to take his revenge at some point. Yeah. She's a serial liar. Right. Exactly. It's a great story. It's a great story. We're fine guys.

This is cathartic. I think he's moved on from, you know, ultimately so many things have happened. I feel like he, although I guess the book on him would be that he has incredibly long memory for vengeance. He's not like a forgive and forget type. No, I feel like he's a forget guy. But I don't think forgiveness leads to the forgetting. I know I hate them, but I can't remember why.

Right, exactly. Did he ever say anything to you? Well, I saw him a couple nights later at an event in New York. And in my head, which is sort of something that Lorne Michaels would say, which is don't make a joke about somebody that you wouldn't be able to go up and talk to them after. And I did feel every joke was fair. I don't look back on that and think any of it was mean or out of bounds. And I went over and said, because I'd known him from when he had hosted

SNL, and I went over and said, thanks for being such a good sport the other night. And he completely shut that down. He immediately said, you were too mean. The jokes were too mean. He did say the president was very funny, so congrats, guys. Because that was how he always phrased it at post, was that I had stepped over the line.

I wonder what you did that really got him. I think it's that there's something, being burned by the president is an honor in its own right. Right. I know it's embarrassing to some degree, but with the most powerful man in the world, it takes time out of his remarks to target you. There's some, there is a bit of, like, you have accomplished something to reach that point. Whereas when I go after you, it's like, is a bit of like you have accomplished something to reach that point whereas when i go after you it's like who is this guy um and then though i saw him at a i did not see him again until uh the snl 40th and we actually had a very nice interaction this is before probably about like three or four months before he announced and it was pleasant like it

was not planned we were just trying to get to our seats and crossing in a very narrow aisle and it was a real bygones be bygones conversation and at the time and you've been friends ever since

we've been friends ever since he knows everything everything's a joke I call him every night I tell him what's coming I run the script by him he thinks it's very good

to sort of frame somebody as the other side and then we actually reached out and talked to him about coming on the show because, again, because of 2011 and that correspondence didn't, we always thought he'd be a great guest. And then he, you know, started

running and we started talking about it and that sort of went astray. Yeah, he doesn't like honesty. So this is something we were excited to talk to you about, which is how you decided to be political in a show that makes that hard, or at least where there's like a threshold question like, is this a show that can be

political? Right. It was, you know, it was a couple things. The main, I feel like the main catalyst was just this decision that was based more in comfort than anything else to move the show back to behind the desk, not do conventional monologue, which was a thing I just set up as a challenge to myself. I really thought I would have the best joke writers and I would eventually figure out how to do it

and just never found comfort with it. Also, our show's on after The Tonight Show and Jimmy does a monologue and I think one of the biggest challenges we have every night is how do you get people to stay tuned in? Oftentimes oftentimes I think when you do something that looks exactly the same they think oh I don't need to see the same kind of jokes about what happened in the news so we got back behind the desk and that let us do it a little bit more update style and and when you have updates and keys and graphics you can tell jokes that I think are a little bit more explainy you don't have to do that monologue thing of,

hey, did you guys see this? And that got out of it. And so that just became a little bit newsier. And then we just kind of lucked out that we had just done a few of these closer looks, and they got really good. It was that thing of the audience kind of telling you something's working. We'd get good feedback.

And then this all sort of just happened right as Trump jumped into the race. And then this became a year where I feel as Trump jumped into the race and then this became a year where I feel like all the late night shows even the ones that are apolitical started talking about politics a little bit more because we had a more political leaning it just gave us so much content that we started creating this process whereas we could do these closer looks three or four times a week and as far as the fact that nobody had ever done it before it was nice that nobody ever told us not to like NBC was really supportive I think NBC also likes the idea of our show being different than tonight's show

and I think they just felt a point of view this is I feel like this is an era now and I think it's a lot of thanks um to Jon Stewart uh and Colbert like you it's okay to have a point of view and be a talk show host. What I feel like I appreciate about what you guys are doing and your interview with Kellyanne Conway is one of the frustrating things about watching this campaign is the degree to which they just insult your intelligence and blatant lies to your face.

And to have someone call it out and to do it with satire, I think, is one of the best ways to cut through that bullshit. Well, it i will say i'm very grateful that she came yeah it's so hard to have those conversations and it was funny because a couple weeks before i had back-to-back nights uh david remnick had been on and the next night rachel maddow had been on and they were very similar conversations they were just like the progressive lament right and i felt like when i was watching you talk to Kellyanne Conway, it was a little bit like, oh, my God, she's doing that thing she does in CNN, but she's doing it to me. And I can tell her it's crazy. She's doing that pivot thing.

I'm going to talk about it. Well, it was the great thing about it. And I realized the advantage I had over somebody who would do talk to her on CNN is an audience. She never gets interviewed in front of an audience. And so there's a moment where I said, that's a pivot, and the whole audience laughed because they, again, You literally applauded her. And then she couldn't then say it wasn't a pivot. 200 people agreed with me.

Right. Whereas on all those shows, you watch somebody like Jake Tapper, you watch somebody like Anderson Cooper talk to her. First of all, I don't know how how anybody when you're just two people are in different places looking at the camera hearing each other in the air please like no one's ever come to an agreement there and also just that the audience becomes uh a group of people that sort of collectively say well now hold on and then it doesn't make you as the interviewer look like you just found a bone to pick with them.

You're just kind of saying, I just would love to point that out. Right. I couldn't remember another late-night show host breaking news in the middle of an interview to a guest. I thought that was pretty interesting. Well, it was. I mean, it was so—I wish you could have seen how it was like the dressing room was on fire, like everybody was running around showing you printouts and reading it and trying to understand the news story. Right.

Because I knew I had to. This is a hard one to understand. It was. Yes, it was. It was. It took a couple days. I mean, we still don't know. We still don't know.

I still don't know if, you know, I think Kellyanne Conway fully believes that she gave the right answer to that. You know, it's a tricky one. The crazy thing was the BuzzFeed thing was 20 minutes later, and our show had already started. Thank God. I was wondering whether there was no PJoks. Yeah, well, that would have been too much to know what to do with. Right.

You know, I'm glad we had a night. To process it. To process that. Yeah, we're still processing it. It's still something we're working on. And I still I still can't process you know I actually now

and again like we'll do it tonight we'll probably faint towards it it's been for late night talk show hosts that the BuzzFeed document

you know that is comedy gold yes I don't know if it's fair to continue bringing it up because it's so do you think it's fair

that the logo for our podcast is holding an umbrella? I think so. I mean, the fact that Jim Clapper, the director of national intelligence, briefed to the president of the United States that he used the words golden shower, I think to me, like, I can't vet this document either. And, like, I think we all should greet all intelligence leaks with some skepticism, right? But, like and i'd say this is a guy who worked in national security that said like when it gets briefed at that level like

you just have that has to be taken on board as news i don't know how you and this thing was floating around for months before this but i agree that it's news it i just now it seems there's no verification it happened and yet we again in order to make the jokes we don't we don't act before each joke say unverified right you know allegedly yeah look buzzfeed broke the seal on this whole thing i think that's the first time i've used that one i think that's again i maybe haven't heard that one yeah everybody you're welcome what do you think about the role of comedy in, I guess, in the Trump era here? Because there was, during the campaign, there was a little sniping from, I would say, Republicans and then, like, D.C. types.

It's like, oh, John Oliver did a segment Sunday night, but it didn't kill Donald Trump's campaign, like, thought it was going to, you know, and sort of mocking it. Well, I think there's a fair, it's fair to mock those who write headlines that use destroy. And I think even John has done that to his credit. I mean, none of us, I mean, again, we don't ever write one where we, you know, it comes off the printer and we say, this is the one. We got him.

This is the joke. We're just happy to be able to talk about what's going on in the news and make jokes about it. We also try, and again, we have the luxury of doing it every night so we have some time. We try to make sure people know he did this, he did this, he did this. Whether that matters to you or not, like, you know, when people say, why are you so obsessed with him? Well, first of all, I'm not obsessed with him, but he's the most unique president we've ever had. It's the most unconventional campaign we ever saw.

And so it's kind of – it looks to be interesting in perpetuity. We'll see what happens if it ever gets boring. That's our bet. Yeah. But, yeah, so we don't – you know, you're not out trying to stop me. I mean, again, you guys must think about this all the time now, which, again, this idea of a bubble. And I'm very aware that the people, there were probably people who watched my show more when it was the apolitical show that kind of led out of The Tonight Show who have been turned off by it. I would hope that maybe an equal amount of people then found it because it was what they wanted.

But I'm aware that more often than not, I'm probably preaching to the choir than, you know, having undecided voters come sit in the audience. Yeah. Yeah. So when it comes to someone like Trump, who is not normal and he kind of is in this comedy world, right? I think that there are shows that have taken it on and other shows have said, you know what? We're just comedy shows. We're just going to keep doing our thing. Do you think that you have an obligation to ask tough questions, say, of a Donald Trump?

Do you have an obligation to not treat him as normal? I don't know if it's an obligation. I mean, again, I'm not trying to deflect. I'm just trying to do the best show every night. And I find the best version of our show is sort of questioning what he does. It's the most, it's the best show every night and I find the best version of our show is sort of questioning what he does it's the most it's the best version and again every talk show has to build itself around the skills of the host I feel like that is just a that's there are other things I can't do that other talk shows are really good at but I do think one of the things I can do is at least try to

deconstruct what he's doing every day and with jokes. I mean, it's kind of that simple. Does a lot of it come from what you did on Update, just because that's sort of the style that... I think the most helpful thing in Update was just learning how to look down a camera and talk, just tell jokes, because it is very jarring to do. I think as stiff as I was, because I do feel like I was really stiff when I first started doing monologues on this show

I was really stiff when I first started doing jokes at Update for some reason I finally got good at sitting behind a desk and then started a new job and was like

I'm going to leave my skill set I mean you guys remember me being wooden back in 05 well here I am again what is it about standing up

that made it different one thing is it's a little bit more old school entertainer. Right. I think that, you know, the curtain and, you know, we switched it to a brick wall. There's something that you feel like you want to see a showman. And I don't even I didn't even know where to put my hands like that. You see where Conan like ends up like doing dances with strings.

He's like, what am I doing with my hands out here? Yeah see where conan like ends up like doing dances with strings he's like what am i doing with my hands out here yeah well it was funny i mean he i feel like he figured it out and turned it into a strength of right kind of calling out how silly it is that you have to and again couldn't figure out hand in a pocket or or any of those things and i always felt like it had no looseness for me i felt felt like I was doing a catalog shoot. You know, like hand, pocket, look at watch point. Why do you think there's no conservative version of what you're doing or that I can think of? I don't know.

It's such a good question. Because shitting on Democrats is easy and fun. We are terrible. Right. No, a mess. An absolute mess. This would... Coming out of maybe the worst year

the Democrats have ever had. And I don't know. I mean... I don't want to guess. Maybe it's partly because Hillary Clinton has so few flaws to criticize. Yeah, I think that was it. There's not a lot of openings.

Remember last night at dinner when Loveo said we were going to book her? Maybe we got this in the mail. because Hillary Clinton has so few flaws to criticize. Yeah, I think that was it. There's not a lot of openings. Right. She was such a perfect candidate. Remember last night at dinner when Loveo said we were going to book her? Maybe we got this in the bag. There goes that. Excuse me, this is still possible, and I could go further. Editing works wonders. Yeah.

I mean, I'm trying to think of who even counts as a conservative comedian. I know there are comedians out there who hold conservative perspectives, but it doesn't seem like anybody wants to go out and do the work of trying to... Maybe because it's hard? It might be hard. It might come off as mean-spirited. And I don't know why.

I mean, I'm sure, by the way, conservatives are like, trust me, you come off as very mean-spirited. So I don't know. Again, I'm trying, although I'm worried. I've never, there's'm worried, I've never, there's never been, empathy has never been

asked for more by the winners in history. Right, oh God, yeah. I mean, it's, and I feel, like that was, I jumped to, oh, there was a lack of empathy,

but now a few months in, I mean, why are the winners the ones who also get empathy? Fascinating to see, like, you know, Trump's spokesman saying, I have to tell you, Saturday Night Live

was very mean spirited. Are you kidding? You work for Donald Trump? He's the meanest guy we've ever elected. Yeah. He's a famous jerk. Yeah. He's world class mean spirited.

And yet there's this idea that everybody, we, none of us understood the lives of the people who made this decision. And I get it. the lives of the people who made this decision. And I get it. And again, I'm a... It's certainly... I feel like this was an election that you have to have an intellectual curiosity as to why it happened

and try to think more about people that you haven't thought of before. But it is this weird thing of like, shouldn't there be some empathy for the people who also lost and are going to have... I feel like I've read every article that's been written about why we lost this election and I have a less good understanding now than the day it happened. And I think, yes, we didn't do a good job reaching out to white working class voters, and the message was terrible.

But I don't want to overlearn this lesson. And I think to the extent I have empathy right now, it's like for anyone who's Muslim in this country or someone who could be you know, could be sent home to another country. It's an immigration debate. I mean, those are people who deserve some empathy. Piping Tommy in from the Women's March. But it's a weird thing. You have to, we get empathy and you have to be good sports.

Yes. It's a sore winner thing. The sore winner thing is crazy. I've never seen it before. No. It's pathetic. It's almost as if he attracts kind of devious and unprepared people. It's like they're all Boston sports fans.'ve never seen it before. No. It's pathetic. It's almost as if he attracts a kind of devious and

unprepared person around him. It's like they're all Boston sports fans. It's true. The give him a chance, which I, again, you know, I'm still hopeful that how I don't know how it happens, but that you know, we're better off a year from now than we are today.

Like, that's the hope. And yet this idea of give him a chance, I mean, by the day after, he was behaving terribly. There was no shift. And so I think there's this idea that no one who wanted the other option or the other outcome gave him a chance. But it's like, no, there's an active... I mean, also, once you become president, like like the stresses and challenges only increase right it's like you become you get like more in the foxhole and you feel more defensive right like it's not gonna get better for him the flaws

of presidential candidates are the flaws that dog their presidencies only worse because you're a human being and the craziest job human beings have ever created and it brings out all your worst instincts because you're a human being you're a job human beings have ever created. And it brings out all your worst instincts because you're a human being. You're a person. And you feel aggrieved. The reason, sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say, obviously, President Obama seemed to have, you know, a very strong historic sense of what he was about to step into.

How much harder do you think it was than even he was prepared for? I think it was much harder. I remember in those, the only time i thought i saw him seem nervous was those first few months on the job because of the economic crisis and the reports he was getting and just like every day it was more bad news like auto industry's dying 800 000 jobs a month losing like credits frozen up and that started in the campaign remember when we all like surreptitiously patched into that conference call in october when he would just gone to the white house and like that was when hank paulson got down on his knees in front of pelosi and was begging her to support to vote for the bailout republicans

wouldn't back it and he was like we gotta win this thing guys like things are way worse than you yeah because obama was in this meeting with bush and paulson and pelosi and mccain and they were talking about the financial crisis and i remember remember Bush had seemed a bit adrift because he was almost done. And Paulson sort of had everything under control, I guess. And McCain wouldn't talk. Yeah, but Obama got on the call after that, and he was more scared and worried

than he had ever been during the campaign because he was like, I'm probably going to become president, and this is really fucking serious. Yeah, that incredible onion headline black man gets worse job in america well look the good news is uh uh there are always four year stretches in america without a crisis that happens all the time so nothing to worry about on that front i it's incredible also i mean how i it's are you people have already forgotten how

crazy it was when Obama took office. It was as bad as Trump is making it seem. It's bad now. I was saying that the other day. I'm like, can you imagine if Trump was taking office in 2009 right now? Then I'd be really terrified. Like, at the very least, we have some level of calm and prosperity. But to your point about the sore winter thing, I mean i mean like the thing that's important about shows

like yours is like this first six months or a year in washington the sucking up from the non-jake tappers of the world is disgusting right like who's up who's got the best office who's in power and like someone needs to not give a shit about access and just yeah go after these people every single night well it's great to not i mean, there's not that much access other than Trump. I think Kellyanne Conway is probably the best person you can have to be the voice of him. Also, to her credit, you know, she's done Bill Maher. Like, she knows the difference. She's tough, man.

She's tough. She'll go out there and take hits and try. She's good at her job. And I think she, I mean, I do want to stress this because I feel like people maybe would be surprised here it could not have been nicer before it could not have been nicer after and I think loves the theater of doing one of these that has an audience and so hopefully you know access won't dry up there but otherwise we are in a good situation which is unlike you know the people in news who actually need it

like that you know We can just talk. More often than not, the news is doing the work and then we take their clips and make jokes about them. Us too. But it must be so much of a scarier time for them than it is for the people in comedy. You do need though a chronicle almost of all the crazy things that happen

today. I feel like that's why some of the stuff you do is helpful because you see a day of news, he like yells about a million things, tweets, like a bunch of things happen that any one of them would have been talked about for days. Yeah. And then it's easy to just forget the next day. Well, that it is. I mean, I hopefully each day's thing serves as a document for people who missed the day

and just want to hear. serves as a document for people who missed the day and just want to hear because again i don't know if we're changing minds but if you if everything i'm telling you is depressing hopefully if this is the most palatable way to get this news right which is you know already as opposed to if you watch uh you know cnn you have to watch a panel of people who are very fraught talking about the outcome and this has never happened this is unprecedented and whereas by the time you get it it gets to us we can at least be rolling our eyes at it right and that doesn't make it any less dangerous what is actually happening but hopefully it makes it a more palatable way to to accept the danger into john's way like the half-life of a bad story these days is like the snap of the finger like

i remember where i was when i first saw the the reverend right video it was like when kennedy was shot and then we never stopped talking about it for like three months the man talked about groping women on tape and like it's just kind of fun yeah like today i think it was i think it was earlier today uh trump spokesman did a press conference and was asked you know will he ever release his return so we can find out where he owes money and he's like oh that's asked and answered no no no no no no it's asked and asked and asked, but never answered. And it's just, they're like, you can just move on. What they're doing is the kind of thing

I feel like political operatives have talked about forever. Like, what would happen if we just never dealt with it? Yeah. Would it really go away? And oh, no, it does. And that, I guess the terrifying thing is, I mean, look, anybody who has any expectation that he's going to change

is crazy I think at this point definitely but will this change the way other people run for office because it was so effective that's scary I think that's the scary thing you can get away with a lot now he is a unique guy and it's easy to because he has been so malicious in so many

ways it's easy to overlook his strengths he's charismatic he has a sixth sense for the media. But what scares me is, okay, you can jettison the racism because it's not a winning strategy long term, right? America's changing. What do you keep? You keep the lying.

You keep the constantly keeping people onto the next story. You don't need to be consistent. You don't need your policies to connect to what you say on a day-to-day basis. You put the racism aside, there's still a basket of horrible behaviors that people can learn from

yeah and just dismissing the press like the ability to to sort of wholesale push them off to the side yeah we just to go in like that thing you're saying about how the half-life like so the piece we're going to do tonight the close look it's basically an inauguration preview and then um uh sal gentile the guy who wrote, put on confirmation stuff at the end. And it definitely feels like a little bit, we thought, oh, maybe we should save confirmation stuff for Monday. But Sal's been doing this long enough, and he was saying, this is not going to be a story on Monday. Monday's a lifetime. Like, Bensi DeVos has like five seconds that you can talk about her.

She'll be like at a ribbon cutting at a school. Yeah, exactly. The first ribbon cutting to close a school. They're putting a ribbon back together in front of a school. They're police taping a school. No, all the outrage goes away really fast. And then there's something new to be outraged about the next day. And when we take, you know, because we'll do, we're probably averaging about three a week, so that means one day a week.

We don't have a closer look. And it's amazing how you can't even get a day ahead because you go, oh, and that one at least, we'll have two days to work on it because it all just like flushes out so quickly. Yeah. I mean, our preparation is like John writes an outline and forwards it to us, and we rewrite the thing three times before Monday when we take it. And usually it's outdated by the time it's aired, right? Yeah. We miss every big story. Literally. No, it's true. Who's the most human politician you've interviewed

that you didn't think, like, this is someone just sort of spitting talk? Well, I will say it was, especially this, you know, this year when you have, there were so many candidates on the Republican side and you just realize how many of them don't understand the purposes of coming on a show like mine. Right.

And they, you know, people like, you know, like Kasich and Martin O'Malley, who are lovely people, but just, like, locked into talking points that they would do anywhere, and you could just feel them. And I will say Kasich came back a second time and was much better and even said

that when he watched it, he realized, oh, this is not the show to do your meet-the-press talking points. The audience didn't care. They had an assumption. Oh, we thought if you were showing up for the 1230 oh, this is not the show to do your meet the press talking points. The audience didn't care. They had an assumption. Oh, we thought if you were showing up for the 1230 show, you were going to show another side of yourself.

I mean, Bernie is human in that only, I mean, it's just the most human behavior. It's who he is. Yeah. We basically had him when he announced, so he was this crazy long shot. And then the second time we had him was, oh, hey, is this a real thing? It was like after shot. And then the second time we had him was, oh, hey, is this a real thing?

It was like after Michigan. And then the last time we had him was sort of right after. It was right before the election. We had him four times, I guess. But like right before the election, I remember saying, how are you doing? He's like, I'm bad. I'm mad. I want to be running for president.

Okay. And you're like, oh, yeah, that's a very good, honest answer. I will say my favorite, again, in the same way that I really enjoyed talking to Kellyanne Conway, Ted Cruz was really a fun interview. Really? Yeah, because he – Sorry. I know, I know. First time I heard that.

But he's like intellectually combative in a way that is interesting. And he's not – you know, he has that debate background. He's not tied to, you can switch the subject on him, and he's like very facile and can kind of go. As these guys know, I'm a fan of St. Cruz. Yeah, you were on board early. I was on board early. He was my boy. He was the only guy who could stop him.

He quit. Gave up. But he could have done it. Do you think he quit too soon? I don't think he had a chance. I think he quit the very moment he didn't have a chance, but I think there was a period of time when he could have done it. Something unlikable that comes off him.

Beyond politics. He must have, I mean, again. Smarminess, I think. If he'd have just been friendly smarmy to the rest of his party. Right. You know, like if he, but he played that card of I'm going to be the outsider. And then like that dude came out like so far outside him. Like you need to have an inside somewhere.

Yeah. Like it can be small, but you need somewhere where you can go Like you need to have an inside somewhere. Yeah. Like it can be small but you need somewhere where you can go where there are people who like you. Yeah. It is funny what goes

on our side what goes into like preparing politicians for shows like this. Sure. Like there'll be meetings and it's like come up with lines

and it's the worst instincts right? Don't we don't want to write them lines in comedy shows. You're not funny. It definitely changed over the years, though. I remember when, in the first year at the White House,

when the president would do one of these shows, there was this meeting, and Coggan, you know, writing a page of lines, like, maybe he'll use this if he's asked this, and it never comes to anything. And then by, like, you know, year four, it's just like, just go, just go and just talk. Yeah, always much better. I mean, he's the best at it.

Here's, I want to loop back to the Correspondence Dinner. What is it going to be like? What is the Correspondence Dinner going to be like next year? So I think Al Smith is going to be instructive, what we saw during the campaign, which is he will have a page of professionally written material by someone who has sold their soul, and then he'll turn the page, and he'll just be like, you know what? I hate all of you. Mean, mean, mean, mean, mean.

No punchline. Angry. I hate you all of you. Mean, mean, mean, mean, mean. No punchline. Angry. I hate you. Thank you. Well, you know, I mean, we've learned that self-deprecating jokes are always the best. Yeah.

And you always want to start with self-deprecating so that you can get into the shots on other people later. I don't think he will be very self-deprecating. Yeah. And like you said, he'll take every joke too far. There'll be a joke that singes and then he'll just hammer it because he wants to really insult i felt like

that was like a metaphor you were so close like that's what i guess i was like oh singeing where's he gonna go hammering never mind disappointing something like trump might the other thing about the l smith dinner is he doesn't he has no expectation of how the joke will go it's just like he's, it's almost as if he's hearing it the first time as he reads it. And not in that good standup way of, oh, they say it and it makes you think it's the first time they're saying it. Which Obama does sometimes.

Yeah. Or sometimes he's really reading it for the first time. In like a speech, a little joke. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I can't even imagine what it'll be like for the comedian. I was going to say, what comedian gets that job? Larry the Cable Guy. Good luck, my friend.

Listen, the way that he's interacting with the press corps, if this trend continues and they push them out of the West Wing into the EEOB and they're saying no press is allowed in Trump's hotel this weekend and this access keeps being curtailed, reporters should not be a party to this thing. Yeah. You know? don't want to be the you want to cancel the parade after i got to go my turn but like at some point it's not funny because people need to understand that press access is our access to information and i think it's easy to like we've shit on the media from both sides for so long we've destroyed their approval rating but it's like this is this is getting dangerous

yeah the weird thing about any collective press decision is, is that even possible to ask? You know, when people say, oh, they should walk out of the, you know, the press briefing, well, not everyone will ever walk out. Right, right part won't. They'll just be left with, right. And so there's this interesting thing, some people say you just might have to eat it. The interesting thing would be if the press corps, I mean, again, Trump doesn't want to have that dinner, right? He doesn't want to go to the White House Corps.

Although now, especially because of 2011, I think the first year he's going to want to go to be like, look at me, I did it. This is what he thinks the job is, right? It's going to these dinners, getting the Olympics. Like that's in his mind. It's a show, right? Yeah. It's a big show. Yeah.

I mean, it's funny. You know, this is something that reporters talk about you know behind the scenes it's also something a lot of like press people who work with reporters say you know uh we had philippe rhinus who worked for hillary on our show and and and one of the things he said is reporters are gonna have to start figuring out how to work together and stop seeing themselves as competitors and i wonder how much of a challenge the trump press strategy has to pose before they'll really do that like you said there's like even if abc cbs n, NBC all decided to join together, Fox and Breitbart are always going to be there.

Right, they'll always be. And Birth Certificate Weekly. Yeah, Birth Certificate Weekly. Love its new outlet. Alinsky Magazine. You do the back page, right? You do a back page story. You fold it over and it's always terrible.

He might not want to go just because he may be self-aware enough to know that he's not going to be funny and be scared that he won't get laughs. I guess the real question, I mean, April is a lifetime away. It is. I mean, before we decide how it's going to go until the first week comes. But, yeah, I can't even imagine what that night's going to be like here's my I have another question about the White House Correspondents Center do you guys know the answer to this I believe that before

President Obama started doing it that the president went second no are you sure for some reason everybody wants the comedian to have gone first like I think that everyone's like that makes more sense why are we doing it this way way? But I remember Wanda Sykes going after Bush

and kind of watching Wanda Sykes as he was walking out the door. At least in the Bush administration it was that way. Yeah, I don't know if it ever switched before that. I mean, the only reason it should have switched

is how good Obama was at it. Yeah. Obama was impossible to follow. Yeah, well, it's totally home field advantage to the president there. But he has, not only,

I'm not just saying this, fantastic material. He has a stand-up's delivery even when he's talking about policy. He knows exactly how to deliver a joke. Yeah. And I just remember that was the part that, when people say how stressful was the night, the stressful part was sitting there knowing you had to go up next while he was just murdering, just killing somebody. Did you have to cross out any jokes? Did we have repeats?

No. It turned out no. I ended up dropping jokes on the fly that were, I sort of had a joke about every 2012 Republican candidate. And I did a couple of them, and I could tell he wasn't, you could tell the president didn't you i don't you tell the president didn't want to get caught laughing at that he was happy laughing at trump and i just realized oh because i found when he gets cold to something like the audience kind of does too

because they can see him watching i really think you had the one of the great strategy you you know did a fantastic job and i always point to it as like that was the best job a comedian did during Obama's two terms in office. Look, we're all company. I'm going to get one in. But it was interesting. You had a real strategy, which was you were just relentless with jokes

because it's a big spread out room. So you were fast with a lot of jokes, and you were flipping through pages, skipping things you weren't sure were going to work. It was really fascinating to see. A lot of the comedians have failed or they, or they don't do as well because they do too many jokes. Yeah.

And I don't know why in that room they felt, they feel like, you know. It's such a sensitive, turfy room, too. They get sensitive. Like, ooh, the weirdest things. There was, I'll tell you after we stop rolling, but John Mulaney and Neil Brennan, who both helped me out, they were sitting at a table, and I skipped a joke. And Mulaney told Neil, oh, I'm so happy you skipped it. I've been so worried about it coming. And, like, just that thing.

And there's no dress rehearsal. So you don't, every joke you tell, you're learning an exponential amount more than what you knew before you told it. And it was just like, oh. And then I just came to one and like skipped it. He said it was like his heart started beating again. We do this every year where there's jokes that we love. Yeah. And then they go and it's nothing. And then there's jokes that were like, is this too cheesy?

And then the audience. Yeah. It's a fascinating that room is it's first of all, they're never as insidery as you expect them to be because it's this mix of Hollywood people and DC people who are

really more sort of sponsors of these magazines and newspapers and then there are journalists who are you know look the funniest people in

the world great sense of humor one and all cheerful hilarious bunch not sensitive at all the White House press corps

a bunch of prickly pears those guys I remember the other thing was we were Not sensitive at all. The White House press corps. Bunch of prickly pears, those guys. I remember the other thing was we were supposed to, you know, there's like a photo room beforehand with a picture with the president and the first lady. And then there was supposed to be a photo with myself, the president, and the press corps. And he disappeared. And, of course, you guys have talked about this,

but, you know, that was the next day with Osama bin Laden. And I just remember, like, multiple reporters saying, they got one of Qaddafi's kids. Like, they just killed one of Qaddafi's kids. And I just remember thinking, that was their guess. Or something, or, like, maybe it was one of Saddam Hussein's, but, like, there was something, and they were all so sure. I mean, usually, like, the next day, you know, John and I had been working on the speech.

You know, Tommy's in national security, but we're just working on this joke speech. And then we're like, I wonder why the president was so busy in the two or three days leading up to the correspondence dinner. We couldn't get any time for this important event. Yeah, I had to go to the White House the next day. And I was like, I got called in and I sort of sensed it was something important, but I didn't know.

Like I wasn't read into this. There's no reason to be. And I got to the White House and next day and I was like, I got called in and I sort of sensed it was something important, but I didn't know. I wasn't read into this. There was no reason to be. And I got to the White House and like, you know, a headshot of bin Laden with a bullet through his skull was put down in front of me. So it got serious very quickly. But then throughout the day, I would go outside and I would just see like the cast of True Blood, like bitching up a storm they couldn't get a tour. Like, well, that was the real problem.

It all makes sense in a couple hours. We had to cut a bin Laden joke. hours we had to cut a bin Laden joke Obama asked us to cut a bin Laden did you have a bin Laden we had one but it was just we were just shitting

on C-SPAN for how and it was that nobody watches C-SPAN and it was like people have been looking for

everybody says Osama bin Laden is in the Hindu Kush but did you know he's hosting a talk show on C-SPAN every day from two to three. That's right, that's right.

I'm so glad you said shit, because I've been saying it and I got conscious of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was that we always say, that I think told the last Bin Laden joke that he had a chance to hear. Right, right, right. Depending on the Wi-Fi.

I like to think of him watching the correspondence and being like, come on, man. That's going to be the worst thing that's going to happen to me today. Depending on the Wi-Fi. I like to think of him watching the correspondence. He's like, come on, man. That's going to be the worst thing that's going to happen to me today. He did sit around all day watching TV of himself. We released all this video of him just to kind of denigrate the guy and make him look like this sad old man that he was. Just watch it complaining about cable news. Yeah.

Or Bill O'Reilly. At the end, I got up, and when you finish, and it was as much as like, I'm pretty sure it was just the president said, good job, and I said, thanks, so great. It was that fast, but I remember somebody said the next day, or two days later, whatever, what did you say to the president afterwards? And I was telling people, I said, check about a bed.

I said, I've been looking at some Google Earth shots. There seems to be a... It doesn't fit. It doesn't hang together. There's something about it. I've got a hot tip for you. Why a dish? Why would a house like that

have a dish? Why are these walls so high? Believe what you will. I'm just saying. You have your intelligence. The other thing I remember that I walked off stage and Al Franken called me immediately,

which was very nice because he had done it a couple of times. Did you see his exchange with Rick Perry today? Incredible. It's the closer for our closer. Like it's like genuinely hilarious and good natured on both their sides. Both sides. Great. And the best part about it is Rick Perry says the crazy thing.

And it's such a gift. Frank and being from comedy just knows all he has to do is just let it lay there. It's pretty awesome. One of the first times I ever wrote jokes in politics, I was writing jokes for Hillary and Al Franken was helping. And I made him laugh about Rick Lazio working at a deli in upstate New York. And it was like the greatest thing that ever happened. Al Franken is a tough audience.

That felt awesome. He used to call and yell jokes into an answering machine during John Kerry's kerry's presidential campaign john kerry always wanted jokes he wanted jokes at the top of his speech and like andre cherny was a speaker at the time we'd sit in our office and we'd be like listening to messages from al frank and being like here's what you should say here's a couple jokes it was john kerry didn't deliver them quite as good no we. We, Amy Poehler and I were in D.C. for I think when Tina Fey got the Mark Twain Award and we,

Franken had us to lunch in his office and then he just gave us a tour and I realized the whole reason he gave us a tour was just to tell us the jokes that he'd

come up with about different things that never worked with any of the people that he was spending his time with. He was just so happy to have comedians.

Yeah, that looks like Rudy Valli. Like, look at thatians. He's like, yeah, that looks like Rudy Valley. Just like, look at that old... And I'm like, okay, cool, cool. He's getting funnier as a center now. Yeah, he started to let it loose. He was very serious for that first term. I guess if you're a comedian running for office,

you sort of have to be, right? Yeah. And then I guess also when you win by 400 votes, you don't know like you don't go into it like guns blazing at least that's what acorn would have you believe uh i went i was in minnesota once and had dinner uh with him and it was really funny because so many people were coming up and uh you know you say he was kind of guy he sits in the middle of the restaurant he's gonna you know talk to his constituents and he's saying the thing about winning by 400 votes is like you have to thank everybody who voted for you and you have

to thank everybody who just didn't vote like you that's right you have to have an incredible amount of gratitude for pretty much every single person yeah so you think you'll get trump on i don't i really don't and i'm kind of relieved that it's not something we're chasing. Yeah. Because. Then you have to. Because, again, if we were, you know, there would be a back and forth and they would constantly, you know, they could just play us then. You know, we'd love to.

I think it'd be helpful if you, you know, if you said how well attended the inauguration was, I think that would mean, you know, that would be, I doesn't, I wouldn't put it past them to sort of have specific requests. You're on the mall with a mic, like three doors down. That was wonderful. What a day. What a day for America. All the doors showed up. All three. It's like Kellyanne might come back on though. I hope so. I mean, that was one of the goals outside of it being a good interview was doing it in a way that uh she'd come back you know that she's a fantastic resource and and hopefully you know you don't want to just strip mine at the first time out so there's nothing left right and i do you know there were so many people who before you interview somebody like that

says i hope you're gonna tell her and they tell you things and you're like oh no i'm not first of all i wasn't raised to say things like that to anyone. I'm not going to yell at my guests for five minutes. But, you know, again, just to go back, it's very easy for me to book people who share

political views, and that can be a really good conversation, a good interview. But moving forward, I think the other makes very good TV as well. So it's hopefully trying to find as many of those people as possible. Good luck. Thanks. If you see Kellyanne, I'll just

give you my resume and just sort of slide it after. What do you want to do for her? I just missed the White House. I just love working there. Oh, you want to get back in there? You know, support my country. Get back in the game. It was nice being there yesterday. They do good work. It's going to be a little different. Yeah, maybe not a good idea. I don't think we'll be back in the game. It was nice being there yesterday. They do good work. Yeah. It's going to be a little different.

Yeah, maybe not a good idea. I don't think we'll be back there for quite a while. Yeah. I don't think anyone's going to be back there. Take a mental picture, guys. Take a mental picture. Seth, thanks for joining our podcast. Thank you, guys.

Thanks for listening to our show, Pod Save America. Don't forget to check out our website, getcricketmedia.com. All kinds of good content. Please also follow us on twitter at pod save america at crooked media at john fabs at john lovett at tv tour 08 and at dan pfeiffer bye